Heading to China

It’s business, and unfortunately the project has forced me to literally ignore this blog. If I have any readers left when I get back around March 12 maybe I’ll start posting again. Until then it’ll be pretty dark here.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 170 Comments

Sometimes business is more important than blogging… we’ll still be around when you get back.

February 24, 2010 @ 5:03 am | Comment

Lets start a post fest!

February 24, 2010 @ 8:12 am | Comment

Just read an article in Der Spiegel. There is a new G2 proposal for world domination.

Chimerica (China+America) is passe, Inderica (India+America) is the future.

For those that can read Goethe’s language

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,678183,00.html

If not try your luck with Google Translate.

http://tinyurl.com/yfp9zwh

What do you think?

February 24, 2010 @ 3:10 pm | Comment

Have a safe flight, Richard.

I suspect you’ll find TPD furniture has been rearranged upon your return.

February 24, 2010 @ 3:55 pm | Comment

There are going to be a lot of comments held up for moderation that might take a full day or two to get reviewed so please be patient everyone.

February 25, 2010 @ 12:37 am | Comment

“I suspect you’ll find TPD furniture has been rearranged upon your return.”

Lets go to IKEA!!

http://info.ikea-usa.com/Catalog/

February 25, 2010 @ 3:15 am | Comment

Eco, good news: Your last comment was this site’s 82,888th comment! Sounds lucky to me.

February 25, 2010 @ 3:54 am | Comment

Hope to win lottery this weekend then.

Jackpot 29.000.000 Euros

I am not greedy. I’ll be happy with a mere 1.000.000 Euros

February 25, 2010 @ 4:43 am | Comment

Returning to the discussion at the end of the last terminated thread, I have for once to disagree with Richard:

“Yes because American corporations don’t cause the deaths of thousands if not millions every year.

That is correct. They don’t. There have been scandals and incidents, but nothing coming close to the tainted milk that in 2008 affected 300,000 infants. The big difference, of course, is that in the case of the tainted milk, the addition of melamine was deliberate …”

No, American corporations opver the last forty years have been directly and indirectly and DELIBERATELY responsible for the deaths of countless infants in developing countries through the base and cynical promotion of powdered baby milk formula. In countries with poor sanitation, where the only safe nutrition for babies is to be found in breast milk, companies like Nestle have cynically promoted and sold their products.

This is particularly true in sub-Saharan Africa and parts of south-east Asia. There was an article on the Philpinnes in the South China Morning Post that went so far as to allege that when human rights activists campaigned against these companies promoting their formula in hospitals and clinics in the slum areas of Manila, The U.S. Embassy leant on the Philipinnes government to shut them up.

So really, in this area at least, I can understand the exasperation of Chinese commentators about the holier-than-thou criticisms of some westerners.

February 27, 2010 @ 4:55 pm | Comment

Nestles is a Swiss company. However, if what you say is true whoever was involved should go to jail. I just have to know what happened first. And I despise any holier than thou attitude, Western or otherwise. I criticize the US all the time. However, to compare its products and food safety with China’s is absurd, and the comparison shouldn’t even be made. (It’s merp who made the dumb comparison.) Which country’s products are more likely to break or be shoddy? Where are you more likely to get sick from the food? And that isn’t an attack on China, it’s just what is so, for many reasons – and it’s true for any developing country you compare to the US or Western Europe. It’s true with Mexico as well.

February 27, 2010 @ 6:31 pm | Comment

The Nestlé (Swiss company) practice of giving formula away free at the hospital only so that the mother would have to buy it later was horrific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Accountability_International#History

Thankfully a US led boycott, that later spread worldwide, resulted in international monitoring.

February 28, 2010 @ 3:12 am | Comment

Some thoughts on the laughable Der Spiegel article:

On a field, India is already storming world: Indian novelists of the world’s bestseller lists, Bollywood conquers the West, “Slumdog Millionaire” gives off eight Oscars in Hollywood, the actor Sharukh Khan is a celebrated star worldwide – Muslim and how many of Bollywood film stars. In westlicher Kultur und postmodernem, urbanem Lebensgefühl gilt: “India is in”. Applies in Western culture and post-modern, urban lifestyle, “India is in”.

Clearly an impervious and world-dominating power. I, for one, welcome our new Indian overlords.

The Copenhagen climate summit foundered on the intransigence of China, which demonstrated the world’s confident his new global political weight. Obamas Bereitschaft, mit China zu kooperieren, änderte weder Pekings Haltung gegenüber Iran noch gegenüber Nordkorea.

That same Copenhagen Climate Summit where Western powers tried to twist arms and manipulate the entire developing world into accepting binding agreements that limited their Co2 output per capita to a fraction of that of the West’s?

One rule for whites, one rule for everyone else. Adolf Hitler would be proud.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is the architect of this recovery.

India’s historical growth rates are slower than China’s at equal levels of GDP, especially per capita.

reforms have 300 million people – roughly the number of the U.S. population – out of poverty.

Using these same laughable standards, China has lifted 600 million out of poverty.

The country is young…. grow old before it grows rich

And because of India’s malnutrition, 30% of their children will grow stunted before they grow old, if they even make it to adulthood.

February 28, 2010 @ 11:07 am | Comment

@Richard

It’s merp who made the dumb comparison.

If merp doesn’t do that, he will be out of business.

February 28, 2010 @ 1:48 pm | Comment

@merp – Even though I don’t know why I bother with trolls…

Everyone can find something negative about anything if they so choose.

What was the point of your comment, as I for one missed it…

You seem to find a need to talk bad about India, and to go into hysterics about white supremacy.

I am betting you are against rainbows and marigolds too.

February 28, 2010 @ 4:33 pm | Comment

Just one more thing @merp

I love you, and together we can make the world a better place.

February 28, 2010 @ 4:36 pm | Comment

Aaah, Merp
Must suck being a Chinese supremacist….

February 28, 2010 @ 5:37 pm | Comment

At least India isn’t paranoid enough to raise a “Great Firewall” or to imprison dissidents who do little more than criticise central government policies or advocate better protection for HIV/AIDS sufferers, migrant workers, et al.

At least India has an independent judiciary.

At least India has freedom of speech.

At least India has a functioning democratic system.

At least India trusts its own citizens.

February 28, 2010 @ 6:25 pm | Comment

To #12:
it would appear that India is not perfect. I’m not sure how that is news for anybody, but there you go. In fact, let’s just step back and acknowledge that man is flawed.

Ok, now that we’ve cleared that up, can we discuss China without the comparisons to this/that/and the other? Like I’ve said, I criticize the CCP for what she is; not on how she’s better or worse than somebody else on some random metric.

February 28, 2010 @ 6:48 pm | Comment

Some questions about Chimerica versus Chindia

Is the CCP preventing China to take advantage of a window of opportunity?

Are the weaknesses and inconsistencies of the CCP imposed socio/political system preventing China to reach a greater cooperation level with the US, which will lead to a G2 world preeminence?

Or is China so inner looking (to the point of narcissism) that it is unable to play an international role that goes beyond demanding kowtowing to others?

February 28, 2010 @ 7:14 pm | Comment

Forgot to add….

no matter the political system.

February 28, 2010 @ 7:15 pm | Comment

One rule for whites, one rule for everyone else. Adolf Hitler would be proud.

No rules for the CCP, repression for everyone else. Qin Shi Huang would be proud.

February 28, 2010 @ 8:55 pm | Comment

My conversation With an Indian

Originally copied from tiexue.net

In Shenzhen, in a small coffee shop by the road, I was meeting an Indian from our client company, on a business trip to China. I started my first conversation with an Indian. Indian asked me: “Why don’t you ask for a receipt for your coffee?”

I, confused, said, “I can’t reimburse it, why receipt”?

Indian proudly said, “When our company sends us on business trips, all meals are reimbursed”

As we left the coffee shop, Indian mentioned Hong Kong and said randomly and stupidly, “Is Hong Kong right beside China?”. I was amusedly depressed. Must be very good propanganda in India for their citizens to receive this kind of knowledge.

So I replied, “100 years ago. China fought a war with Britain, and lost. So Hong Kong was taken away by Britain. 100 years later, China became stronger, and so took Hong Kong back.”

Indian thought a bit, and said “So Hong Kong belongs to China?”

I affirmatively said, “Just like New Delhi belongs to India.”

Indian changed the subject.

He’s from the TATA company in India, working as a software programmer for TATA. TATA is one the biggest company in India, leader in automobile and steel.

He started to proudly show me his employee ID. And said, “In my company in India, I can take this ID and face a scanner, and all doors would open for me.”

I said, “We can do the same here.”

India coughed a bit, and asked me, “Do you know TATA?” I said yes I do, it’s a big company.

He looked very proud, and said, “Is your company a big one?”

I said, “It’s not so big. Only average in China. China has about 12 cell phone companies. Our is just an average-sized one”

He felt surprised for the first time, “China has 12 cell phone companies? I always thought there are only 1 to 2 companies in China capable of producing cell phones.”

I replied, “Our company is not so big. We only sold 10,000,000 phones last year.”

When Indian heard the figure 10,000,000, I noticed a big change in the color and texture of his face. His left eye twitched a little bit.

I then continued, “Hmm, yes. Last month, our company just sold half a million CDMA phones in India.”

Indian was shocked again, said, “half a million. That’s a big number. How many cell phone users in China?”

I replied, “China has China Mobile, and it has about 200,000,000 customers in China. Another one is called China Telecom, and it has about 100,000,000 customers.”

Indian looked he was about to faint, and said, “Oh my god.”, his voice a bit unstable.

I continued, “Usually for a Chinese, he buys a new cell phone every 1-2 years.”

Indian still could not believe his ears and thought I was lying. So he asked, “In China, can a software engineer make 150 dollars a month?”

I was about to cough blood. How can India fool its citizens like this? I said, 150 dollars? That’s about how much they can earn in 1 week.

Indian was visibly shaken and could not say a word for the next few hours. In his mind, Chinese are poor, Chinese could not effort cell phones. Chinese’ salaries are lower than Indians.

Then at the end of that day, he did something that made me laugh for days.

He took out a CD, and came to my laptop, and asked, “Can your laptop support CD Rom?”

I thought to myself, “This is the level of an employee of India’s biggest software company?”

I lent him my USB harddrive. But his old IBM laptop did not support USB ports…

Then we went to our hotel, and in our hotel, I connected online using wireless. I then opened a friend’s MSN Spaces site, and showed Indian a few pictures of the city of Wu Xi. I told him, this is my hometown.

Indian was psychologically wounded, looked at the pictures, and said, “This is the most developed city in China, right?”.

I told him mercilessly, “No. There are a few hundred cities like this in China. Wu Xi is a very average one.”

Indian said, “Oh.”

I said, “Can I see some pictures of Indian cities”?

Indian, stated shifting his eyes, and touched his face, and coughed, and said “Tonight is too late. I am kind of tired, let’s sleep first.”

March 1, 2010 @ 1:51 am | Comment

Hi Hong

I though you would like this aritcle

http://tinyurl.com/yh6nus4

Courtesy of this war is boring post

http://tinyurl.com/yggdbtn

Enjoy….

March 1, 2010 @ 3:25 am | Comment

Odd really – I buy something “Made in China” but when I need help with it, the person at the other end of the line is invariably in….India.

March 1, 2010 @ 5:26 am | Comment

HX
Article forgot to mention that the Indian then went home to partake in free and fair elections to pick the leader of his choice. And his Chinese mobile phone broke after a week… :-D

March 1, 2010 @ 5:37 am | Comment

Don’t forget to say, hat on his return to india he could do tweeting, facebooking, youtubing, wikipeding,blogging, posting and googling without vpn, looking over his shoulder, or having funny little funny police cartoons appearing in his computer screen.

And having delicious rivercrabs only for eating.

March 1, 2010 @ 5:52 am | Comment

I’d like to direct everyone’s attention to a very interesting comment to a very old post. And check out his blog too. Excellent.

March 1, 2010 @ 5:54 am | Comment

Hong Xing,

I’m gonna start calling you Hong Xin. You’re a gift. One bit of criticism – I understand that what you are writing is fiction, but I feel using accurate historical references would add to the story… Unless the 1997 Sino-British war for control of Hong Kong is in a chapter you have yet to grace us with.

March 1, 2010 @ 7:56 am | Comment

hat on his return to india he could do tweeting, facebooking, youtubing, wikipeding,blogging, posting and googling without vpn, looking over his shoulder, or having funny little funny police cartoons appearing in his computer screen.

If you’re among the few with access to internet, that is. India is great for Westerners, not really for untouchables and Muslims.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:04 am | Comment

Facebook? Blogging? VPN? How many indian villagers on the street of Calcutta have computers? Before they can log into facebook, they would’ve already died of malnutrition and malaria at age 12.

“Yes, Indians may die at age 12 of disease, at lease they can log onto facebook without firewall! Yes, clearly I prefer to live only 12 years so I can log onto facebook without firewall! India, democracy, the best!”

Hahaha, stop joking me.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:19 am | Comment

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/26896023/The-Computer-and-Internet-Revolution-in-India-Growth-of-Computers

Of course, one could ask how many Chinese have any meaningful access to online content…

March 1, 2010 @ 8:28 am | Comment

If this young man, Huang Chen, is from mainland China, he WILL get a Nobel Prize.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-02/reworked-formula-allows-computers-model-new-materials-100000-times-faster

March 1, 2010 @ 9:30 am | Comment

Sorry, I posted that last one quick. I wanted to be the first one to have said it anywhere on the internet.

I believe he will win a Nobel Prize for this work. This in incredible. Having said that, if he is from the mainland, he will be the first mainland Chinese to get the Nobel Prize. And he deserves it!

March 1, 2010 @ 9:34 am | Comment

fascinating.

Of course, one could ask how many Chinese have any meaningful access to online content…

Weasel and dodge some more. India is 240 million users behind China.

March 1, 2010 @ 10:18 am | Comment

Or 300 million, my mistake- the entire population of the U.S.

But as long as some high caste Indians and foreigners can twitter, who cares about anything else?

March 1, 2010 @ 10:19 am | Comment

“Yes, Indians may die at age 12 of disease, at lease they can log onto facebook without firewall! Yes, clearly I prefer to live only 12 years so I can log onto facebook without firewall! India, democracy, the best!”

Clearly, HongXing, the ability to feed twitter and facebook ad revenue trumps basic sanitation, literacy, and nutrition as an indicator of effective governance.

March 1, 2010 @ 10:20 am | Comment

My conversation With an Indian….

Reminds me of the same condescending way when Hong Kongers used to deal with Mainlanders in the 1970s-80s. They used to call mainlanders “Ah Chan”, a derogatory term that insults mainlanders for being backward and country bumpkins:

“Furthermore, negative images of Mainlanders have abounded in the media since the early 1980s. One of the most well known characters from television drama serials then was Ah Chan, who embodied the trials of a rural simpleton adapting to the sophistication of Hong Kong society. Later, Ah Chan became a derogatory term for newly arrived immigrants from the Mainland, signifying their lack of sophistication compared to heunggongyan. The lack of sophistication of the Mainlanders was a recurrent theme for comedy of errors movies, such as Her Fatal Ways series, depicting a Mainland policewoman trying to adapt to and understand Hong Kong lifestyle, which made four sequels. Besides being depicted as simpletons, Mainlanders were also often depicted as triad members in movies and television drama serials. This was still the case after the Handover, when I was conducting fieldwork in 1998. Terms such as bak gwu gai, referring to prostitutes from the north, and daai hyun jai, referring to members of Mainland crime rings, have gained a wide currency of use, partly because of the sensational reports of the media.”

http://www.hku.hk/hkcsp/ccex/ehkcss01/a_pdf8.htm

Look what HongXing is doing to millions of Indians who have never had a personal grudge against him. I shake my head.

March 1, 2010 @ 11:27 am | Comment

@HX

And to add to my comment above, remember what Confucius had said,“Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others.” Your condescending post is not helping the image of China and its people.

March 1, 2010 @ 11:31 am | Comment

“100 years ago. China fought a war with Britain, and lost. So Hong Kong was taken away by Britain. 100 years later, China became stronger, and so took Hong Kong back.”

You forgot to add that while China took Hong Kong back, it behaves no different from the British colonial masters by denying Hong Kongers the right to universal suffrage. 1997 just marked a change in from one colonial master to another.

March 1, 2010 @ 11:35 am | Comment

it behaves no different from the British colonial masters by denying Hong Kongers the right to universal suffrage

And the “democrats” in Hongkong did not even dare to make a fart for 100 years under their British masters, so tame, so peaceful, what can be more happy than being ruled by a British master, just ask the Indians.

These days, they mistake the CCP’s benevolence for weakness, and think somehow their dick is bigger now. One way to to deal with those Hongkongers is to send in the PLA and just kill 5000, and let the bodies spread out by Victoria Harbor, and have the gentle breeze of the Orient carry the smell of the carcasses all over the island, after a few months, I’d be surprised if the Hongkongers still dare to make a fart. Like Wang Zheng said “Those intellectuals, you just gotta kill a few hundred thousands every once in a while, and you get another decade of stability.” How true those words are.

March 1, 2010 @ 12:52 pm | Comment

And the “democrats” in Hongkong did not even dare to make a fart for 100 years under their British masters, so tame, so peaceful, what can be more happy than being ruled by a British master, just ask the Indians.

Don’t forget that Beijing made a promise to Hong Kong for universal suffrage in the form of the Basic Law (see article 45 and 68). It’s part of the deal. A motherland that renegades its promises to its own people is worse than any colonial masters. Comparison with what happened under British colonial administration just showed your desire to enslave the people of HK under the colonial model of governance.

Article 45: “… The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures…”

Article 68:”…The ultimate aim is the election of all the members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage…”

March 1, 2010 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

WTF is with the new trolls sptwo and Mike Goldthorpe and the old troll HongXing?

Why does an otherwise awesome blog attract the worst trolls on the internet?

March 1, 2010 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

let the bodies spread out by Victoria Harbor, and have the gentle breeze of the Orient carry the smell of the carcasses all over the island, after a few months, I’d be surprised if the Hongkongers still dare to make a fart.

Looks like a direct excerpt from Iris Chang’s “Rape of Nanking”. Nothing suggests a “peaceful” rise.

March 1, 2010 @ 1:12 pm | Comment

“One way to to deal with those Hongkongers is to send in the PLA and just kill 5000, and let the bodies spread out by Victoria Harbor, and have the gentle breeze of the Orient carry the smell of the carcasses all over the island, after a few months, I’d be surprised if the Hongkongers still dare to make a fart. Like Wang Zheng said “Those intellectuals, you just gotta kill a few hundred thousands every once in a while, and you get another decade of stability.” How true those words are.”

And one wonders why China has a bad press in the west….

March 1, 2010 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

HongXing. :)

March 1, 2010 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

Hey Red Star,

I really really do hope that you’re living in China, in a society and under a system capable of doing the things you suggest. We certainly have already seen enough of people extolling on the CCP’s virtues from afar.

And as you’ve described, the CCP is certainly offering a political system to her people that understandably possesses widespread appeal, and is deserving of the support it receives….oh….what’s that you say….the CCP is doing all this without a mandate from her people….oh….

March 1, 2010 @ 2:11 pm | Comment

As real state developers the British did a great job. They got a small patch of land with small fishing village and a bay with no harbour facilities. 100 years layer China got back the land cpnverted in one of the biggest financial centers in Asia.

Not a bad deal IMHO.

March 1, 2010 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

@ Eco
And all that after they had ceded the island to us Brits in perpetuity! I was always taught that meant…well, forever!

March 1, 2010 @ 3:18 pm | Comment

The longer I have been away the more I miss my Chinese home and my Chinese friends. The simple pleasures of going to the fresh market to discover what is available, or sitting around ridiculously low tables on even more ridiculously low stools drinking baijiou and inexpensive, delicious beer with friends, or just going for a stroll well after sunset and seeing so many other people out doing the same thing, are all in my thoughts. I miss my condo in Kunming. I’m looking forward to going to Shanghai for the 2010 World Exhibition.

So as the name change says, no longer Not-A-Sinophile. Happy Lantern Festivall everyone.

March 1, 2010 @ 3:52 pm | Comment

@Mike
“And all that after they had ceded the island to us Brits in perpetuity!”

Clever Chinese ;-)

March 1, 2010 @ 5:45 pm | Comment

” One way to to deal with those Hongkongers is to send in the PLA and just kill 5000, and let the bodies spread out by Victoria Harbor, and have the gentle breeze of the Orient carry the smell of the carcasses all over the island …” — HongXing

Richard, this is beyond the pale. Even if I wasn’t a Hong Kong resident, and even if my wife wasn’t Hong-Kong Chinese, this would sicken me.

This guy isn’t a mere troll, he’s one sad, inadequate sociopath.

March 1, 2010 @ 7:49 pm | Comment

ability to feed twitter and facebook ad revenue trumps basic sanitation, literacy, and nutrition

Confucius said, “I will not be shaken by wealth or high rank, nor changed by poverty or humble position, nor will I give myself up to power or force.”

Famous Tang poet Tao Yuan Ming once said, “I can’t bend and bow just for five bushels of rice”

Merp is obviously ignorant of the virtues of Chinese culture.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:00 pm | Comment

Correction: Tao is a pre-Tang poet.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:02 pm | Comment

If you’re among the few with access to internet, that is. India is great for Westerners, not really for untouchables and Muslims.

If you’re among the few with the position and tools of oppression to steal from the Chinese folks, that is. The PRC is great for party leaders and their princelings, not really for civil society activists, minorities, peasants and party critics.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:08 pm | Comment

@DaQuan

What you have said makes you a concern troll.

March 2, 2010 @ 1:13 am | Comment

not really for civil society activists, minorities, peasants and party critics.

Talking about India?

March 2, 2010 @ 7:04 am | Comment

@ Merp
“One way to to deal with those Hongkongers is to send in the PLA and just kill 5000, and let the bodies spread out by Victoria Harbor, and have the gentle breeze of the Orient carry the smell of the carcasses all over the island, after a few months, I’d be surprised if the Hongkongers still dare to make a fart. Like Wang Zheng said “Those intellectuals, you just gotta kill a few hundred thousands every once in a while, and you get another decade of stability.” How true those words are.”
From what I assume is one of your fellow “race” members abut your fellow “race” members.

March 2, 2010 @ 8:37 am | Comment

Talking about India?

Oh dear. Merp’s dementia is getting from bad to worse. At this rate he is going, he could well tell us that Beijing is the capital of India and New Dehli is the Chinese capital.

party critics: When did a one-party totalitarian state ever run India?

March 2, 2010 @ 9:53 am | Comment

Oh brother, that’s why this blog is down the toilet. Let’s be honest here. People like sptwo and Mike Goldilocks post 3 times as much as merp and they are saying that merp is a troll. Give me a break.

March 2, 2010 @ 10:03 am | Comment

Pugsy wugsy – more words of wisdom from you.
Show me where I said Merp is a troll. Closest I have been there is to allude to his idiocy. And I can’t recall eaver reading a decent thought provoking post from you…anywhere.

March 2, 2010 @ 10:10 am | Comment

Pugface, something for you to read
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/technology/02internet.html?hpw

March 2, 2010 @ 10:23 am | Comment

that’s why this blog is down the toilet

By avidly reading this blog, you are in the toilet hole aren’t you?

March 2, 2010 @ 2:22 pm | Comment

To #57:
“Talking about India?”
—you certainly seem to like to. Which is all fine and good, except this blog, as I understand it, is about China.

So if you’re talking about India on a blog about China, I think it behooves you to ask yourself why.

March 2, 2010 @ 2:53 pm | Comment

Closer to me heart…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7347208/Diageo-in-610m-bid-for-Chinese-spirits-maker.html
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7498334.stm – there’s this to accompany it http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8501267.stm
Hic!

While looking for the latter, also notices this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8544650.stm
Not sure who has my wife’s hukou…think is some cousin of hers wanting to be in Shanghai. Anyway, as wife is now only ethnically Chinese, I think her hukou has lapsed. Are these the same sort of thing as South Africa’s apartheit era passes? Never understood the concept…

March 2, 2010 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

A tool for central planning? Looks more like a feudal system to me.

I always wondered what a central planned economy has to do with the ideals of a classless stateless society.

March 3, 2010 @ 1:13 am | Comment

Guess who are the biggest supporters of the Hukou system?

The city government officials? The city residents? No, it is the Free Tibeters.

Nicholas Kristof at NYT once proposed that China should strengthen the Huko system so non-Tibetans would not be allowed to move to TAR.

Currently people in China can move to any city they like and register at least as a temporary resident or as a permanent resident if they own property. If Mr. Kristof had his way, Chinese would not have the freedom to move to anywhere.

These bleeding heart liberals are morally corrupted.

March 3, 2010 @ 3:14 am | Comment

Who said Tibet needs a Houkou in China?

What Tibet needs is a border, custom controls and an immigration policy. To prevent illegal aliens from entering the country without a proper visa.

Like any normal country :-P

March 3, 2010 @ 3:40 am | Comment

Eco: so the Tibet issue is still about sovereignty? Well, that’s fine. China is happy to fight this battle. China would be even happier if separatists and their Western supporters restart their armed rebellion against the People’s Liberation Army.

Mano-a-mano, you know. Let’s slug it out.

March 3, 2010 @ 3:54 am | Comment

It was always a question of sovereignty for China.

So you imply that is a military occupation.

And what is this PLA? The Schutzstaffel (SS) of a political party?

Here political parties are not allowed to have armed groups. They abide by the law, and if do a high enough % of mistakes they are ousted. Even the communist party, or what is left of it.

March 3, 2010 @ 4:42 am | Comment

The creation of the Hukou system is there so that there won’t be a mass migration of rural people to the big cities, thus creating urban slums that will plague the major cities like Shanghai, Beijing, and Guangdong. The Hukou system wasn’t as strictly enforced as 10 years ago, but it is still in place. My guess is that many Second Tier and third tier cities are modernized and this would not be a significant problem.

March 3, 2010 @ 4:59 am | Comment

The Dalai’s version of genuine autonomy is an enhanced version of the Hukou system, something China didn’t have even during Mao’s time. People in the West are now urging China to adopt such a repressive, unjust, and despicable system.

It was you who brought up things like border, customs control, and immigration. So you are talking about sovereignty. I have no problem with it, if you can walk the walk after talk the talk. For starters you should organize an International Brigade, pick up a rifle, and march toward Tibet. I personally think this is like Don Quixote against the windmill. But who am I to stop you.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:00 am | Comment

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/In-China-a-chorus-for-reforms/articleshow/5634924.cms
“Speaking with a coordinated voice isn’t unusual for China’s state-run media, but it is when that voice challenges the central government itself. By Tuesday, several of the editorials, plus links to them, had disappeared from websites, likely falling victim to belated self-censorship.”

Serve, as I have read it, the hukou came about in the 50s…that is in Mao’s time.

As for tibet, CCP is already getting ready…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/Panchen-Lama-elevated-to-challenge-the-Dalai-Lama/articleshow/5630952.cms

March 3, 2010 @ 5:17 am | Comment

Yes, Mao started the Hukou system. The Dalai Lama wants an enhanced, more repressive and inhuman version.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:19 am | Comment

Aha, I think I understand you now – sorry, just misread your comment above.
Do you have a reference regarding your assertion re Dalai Lama?

March 3, 2010 @ 5:22 am | Comment

And speaking of the Panchen Lama, China should ask foreign leaders to meet the young man. This will drive the free Tibeters crazy. Time to play offense.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:24 am | Comment

OK. Here is Kristof’s proposal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=kristof%20tibet%20dalai%20&st=cse

He made it after meeting with the Dalai, and explicitly stated that Hukou would not be granted to Han Chinese.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:34 am | Comment

“On the Chinese side, the crucial concession would be to restrict migration into all Tibetan areas, inside and outside the “autonomous region,” through China’s existing system of residence permits. The Chinese authorities would stop issuing resident permits, known as hukou, to non-Tibetans for any Tibetan area, and would grant temporary residence permits, or zhanzhuzheng, only when no Tibetan is available to take a job. This would halt the flood of Han Chinese into Tibetan areas.”

Yep, in black and white there.

So…getting rid of the hukou system would help the situation there?

What is in Tibet (and, indeed, other western regions) that drives immigration that way? As I heard it, it is mostly eastward, to the coastal areas. After all, that is where the money is to be made…

Wouldn’t repealing the hukou then have th effect of homogenising China? Something akin to Schengen in Europe?

March 3, 2010 @ 5:42 am | Comment

What a way of twisting the words in that article.

It has nothing to do with imposing a hukou on the tibetans.

You just make up an accusation and throw it to your opponent.

I have seen this tactic before.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:42 am | Comment

Mind you, I’d question the “inhuman” aspect…or indeed “repressive” aspect. Enhanced, yes…and more Tibeto-centric, which I admit can be seen in a bad light.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:45 am | Comment

you certainly seem to like to. Which is all fine and good, except this blog, as I understand it, is about China.

So if you’re talking about India on a blog about China, I think it behooves you to ask yourself why.

Because of everyone screaming, democracy is perfect and flawless and does no wrong! If China were a democracy today, she would be invincible! The light of the world! Perfect and flawless!

Yeah right

March 3, 2010 @ 5:49 am | Comment

He made it after meeting with the Dalai, and explicitly stated that Hukou would not be granted to Han Chinese.

I gotta love how this Kristof retard is asking China to restrict the movement of people into Tibet, when he isn’t asking that whites, a racial alien and enemy of the Native Americans, to not go into Native territory. Whoops, that’s the entire United States and Canada.

And I also love how he has no problem with “Northeast India”, formerly all independent Tibetan or Mon states, being 30-60% Hindu Indo-Europeans.

March 3, 2010 @ 5:52 am | Comment

The Chinese colonizing way is by flooding. Demography as a weapon.

When they are criticized they complain that everybody has the same rights to move whenever he wants.

When they are applied the same treatment, they screech like anyone else.

Or culture, our language, our women!

March 3, 2010 @ 5:52 am | Comment

I don’t even know whether you are for Hukou or against Hukou. Or should I conclude that you are for the Hukou system if it is practiced in Tibet and against it if practiced in the rest of China? Double standard, right?

March 3, 2010 @ 5:58 am | Comment

The Chinese colonizing way is by flooding. Demography as a weapon.

When they are criticized they complain that everybody has the same rights to move whenever he wants.

When they are applied the same treatment, they screech like anyone else.

Or culture, our language, our women!

Maybe you are just ignorant ecodelta, but Han Chinese have among the lowest birth rates in the world- Tibetans the highest. The Chinese generally have no problem with Tibetans or other minorities moving into Chinese areas, like Uighurs invading and stealing Urumqi, which was founded by Han Chinese during the Tang Dynasty.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:06 am | Comment

Eco, funnily enough, following Serve’s link got me reading today’s edition of the NYT (or yesterday’s…NZ is a few hours ahead…)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/opinion/02iht-edcohen.html?hp
I can see many parallels with how the CCP wants to have China and the European Union. It does seem to me, having access to our media, that it could be construed as a colonisation of sorts – not so much as, say, British colonisation of New Zealand, but as Italian colonisation of Sud Tirol or the French/German colonisation of Alsace (depending on who owned it at the time) or Britanny. Franco did the same in Spain, I read.
I do think the CCP is heavy handed in their methods, but looking at what I read of Spain and the UK…and even Italy with the Lega Lombarda, maybe the soft approach isn’t the most integrative option either.
The Dalai Lama wants Tibet to be a part of China but in trying to maintain it’s Tibetan-ness he does risk drawing the ire of the party that wants to make all Chinese….well, Chinese.
Be interesting to see what happens when the Dalai Lama dies…

March 3, 2010 @ 6:10 am | Comment

@ Serve
Your comment directed at me? No – the system is restrictive, which was the term I think you wanted. Inhuman and repressive are rather emotional.
Everyone should be free to travel without let or hindrance in their own country. By the same token, the cultures they have should not be restricted (culture does seem to be rather important to people) by an outside party but be allowed to evolve to fit the new situation.

Not using any standards, just commenting on the similarities between Europe and China…

March 3, 2010 @ 6:17 am | Comment

The Dalai Lama wants Tibet to be a part of China but in trying to maintain it’s Tibetan-ness he does risk drawing the ire of the party that wants to make all Chinese….well, Chinese.
Be interesting to see what happens when the Dalai Lama dies…

Right and what’s “Chinese” to you? Shandong? Cantonese? Fujianese? Taiwanese? Shanghainese? Jiangnan?

Get a clue.

Interesting? Yes, you’re the 100,000,000th white hypocrite to suggest Tibetans will start non-stop race riots (how naive) and expressed a wish to see the Dalai Lama die.

Crazies.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:18 am | Comment

I am against Hukou. I consider it a feudal system.

The article you mention is about using the current Chinese current legal system, the Hukou, in a possible agreement about the Tibetan issue.

I can propose you the solution we have here. We have also historical autonomous regions, made of nationalities with different culture, language and history. Some even existed well before the existence of any country in Europe.

Nothing prevents me to go and live there. There is no restriction, unless you take the following as such.

Two of them have complete control over tax income. Their parlaments decide later how much to pay to the central government.

These parlements are controlled my majority of nationalist party (of local variety). The voting system is skewed to favor their presence even at national level. One vote there has more weight than in other areas, country wide.

The representation, although still a minority, at the national parliament is strong enough to have a decisive influence in the central government.
Sometimes with positive effects, sometimes no (depending who you talk with)

Local language is mandatory at school, even at university level, sometimes the only one.

All government documents are in local language too. Any citizen can address the public servant in their local language. There are even bonus points for public servant from outside when they master the local language.

Business is also conducted in local language, and in even mandatory for shops business placards on the street.

There is also a rich literature, media and films in the local language.

And yes, even a significant % there want even the independence. With political groups in the parliament, local and national.

This is our Hukou. Do you like it?

March 3, 2010 @ 6:19 am | Comment

@Mike
I rather prefer the soft approach we have here than any other.

I can be as nationalistic as serve when I mind to be.

But in the end I know that hidding a problem under the rug, and pretend that is not there is not a good solution in the long run.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:24 am | Comment

@Eco
Seeing the result of the hard approach in Europe, I too favour a softer approach :-) But then I am a soft European immigrant…

Regarding language, my sister-in-laws husband is a little concerned about his dialect, from Nantong. Mandarinisation does mean there’s less of it being spoken. Family conversations are a blast – parents-in-law speaking their Jiangsu dialects, wife and siblings speaking Nantong, nephew speaking Mandarin…
I have also read that there are no Shanghai radio stations (as in dialect/language) in Shanghai – everything being in Mandarin. I find that hard ot believe – not true, is it?

March 3, 2010 @ 6:30 am | Comment

I speak Spanish and my own local language. I can also receive by terrestrial TV channels in other local languages of other regions in Spain. Basque, Catalan and Valencian. (can understand the last two)

By satellite I receive channels in other local EU “autonomous regions” languages: German, French and English.

It would be a pity for china to loose a good share of its culture for…. special reasons.

Yes. Harmony can be… a very destructive thing.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:41 am | Comment

@Eco
True. Can lead to some funny episodes, though…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT86iWiH2mI&feature=related

March 3, 2010 @ 6:45 am | Comment

The prestige China could achieve by solving the Tibetan issue in a reasonable way for both sides would be immense. And the solution would not imply any loss of sovereignty.

It could even strengthen it…

A window of opportunity is now closed. The CCP was not up to the task.

And the prestige of China suffers with it.

They have been weighted, they have been measured and they have being found to be… lacking.

At least we know now what we deal with, and how to deal with it.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:48 am | Comment

Eco:

I don’t find your Huko system appealing, especially if some people’s vote is worth more than other’s As a comparison, I prefer the American system. One man, one vote. All states are treated equal. You can move and live anywhere you want. Every government document is in English, even if there are Navajo, Dakota languages that are native to the land, not to mention Spanish, native to a large number of people. One language, my friend. That is how you run a nation.

PS. Congratulations to Spain for capturing Jurdan Martitegi Lizaso.

March 3, 2010 @ 6:49 am | Comment

Serve

The US system is a good one – though many there seem to be finding it lacking (the Tea Parties I read about and the “Big Government” conspiracists). I’m also not too sure about the college system in their elections. Don’t forget, they had a civil war before getting to the state they’re in today…

A lingua franca is good – but seems a shame to have to lose the other languages to that end. Still, that’s how Rome did it (mostly) and the efects are still evident today…(heh…and I say that as an English speaking mostly monoglot…)

So maybe a federal China would work?

March 3, 2010 @ 7:01 am | Comment

@Server

“One language, my friend. That is how you run a nation.”

Hhhhmmm…… too boring!

As kid I knew two English teachers, one from Boston and other from California. So far a way, and yet they were so similar, at least to me. So boring.

And when in the US, everything seemed too homogeneous to me, when compared to Europe. Very small exceptions.

And the food looked the same everywhere and had same terrible taste, especially fish. Except in Quebec. Vivre la France!

I rather prefer less monotonous environments.

Better a Starbucks in Paris, Vienna, Munich or Madrid than in the US. I mean… by the surrounding amenities.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:01 am | Comment

I can be as nationalistic as serve when I mind to be.

But in the end I know that hidding a problem under the rug, and pretend that is not there is not a good solution in the long run.

How can you be nationalistic with 20% unemployment? Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhth9TwWhCQ

Yes. Harmony can be… a very destructive thing.

In all seriousness ecodelta, what do you think about the 100+ dying languages in America and Canada?

March 3, 2010 @ 7:02 am | Comment

I can’t even imagine any Chinese person anywhere crouching over to look at a woman, and then upon seeing that she is a foreigner, slap her, pinch per breasts, kick her in the face, and then punch her in the ribs while blabbering on a cellphone like it’s no big deal.

Looks like the Arabs didn’t raise you right.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:04 am | Comment

@serve
“Congratulations to Spain for capturing Jurdan Martitegi Lizaso.·

I have lived several terror attacks. Once a very big explosion near my home in Madrid. I could see the carnage from my window.

There was a time when the frequency of car explosions was high enough I could distinguish then clearly from other explosive noises.

And still consider necessary solutions beyond repressive ones. The success now in the Basque country is not due only to police work. Working together respecting the other side bear more results, and creates a stronger and richer civil society.

Not all pro independent parties are violent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aralar_Party

March 3, 2010 @ 7:14 am | Comment

To wit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_endangered_languages

China:

Enju
Sarikoli
Manchu (revival efforts are underway)

USA:

Achumawi language
Ahtena language
Kiowa Apache language
Lipan Apache language
Arikara language
Atsugewi language
Caddo language
Cahuilla language
Chetco language
Chinook language
Chinook Wawa language
Clallam language
Coeur d’Alene language
Coos language
Degexit’an language
Eyak language
Gros Ventre language
Northern Haida language
Han language
Hawai’i Pidgin Sign Language
Holikachuk language
Hupa language
Kalapuya language
Kansa language
Karok language
Kashaya language
Kawaiisu language
Klamath-Modoc language
Upper Kuskokwim language
Kutenai language
Luiseño language
Lushootseed language
Northeast Maidu language
Northwest Maidu language
Mandan language
Menominee language
Central Sierra Miwok language
Lake Miwok language
Northern Sierra Miwok language
Plains Miwok language
Southern Sierra Miwok language
Mono language
Nisenan language
Osage language
Panamint language
Pawnee language
Central Pomo language
Southeastern Pomo language
Southern Pomo language
Quapaw language
Quileute language
Straits Salish language
Serrano language
Snohomish language
Tanacross language
Tanaina language
Lower Tanana language
Tolowa language
Tübatulabal language
Tuscarora language
Tututni language
Wasco-Wishram language
Washo language
Wichita language
Wintu language
Yokutsan languages
Yuchi language
Yurok language

But let me guess, Mike will say it’s Chinese government propaganda. Then after clicking on the link he will say it’s no big deal- after all these are just primitive hunter gatherer tribes.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:14 am | Comment

The Dalai Lama wants Tibet to be a part of China but in trying to maintain it’s Tibetan-ness he does risk drawing the ire of the party that wants to make all Chinese….well, Chinese.
Be interesting to see what happens when the Dalai Lama dies…

Right and what’s “Chinese” to you? Shandong? Cantonese? Fujianese? Taiwanese? Shanghainese? Jiangnan?

Interesting? Yes, you’re the 100,000,000th white person to suggest Tibetans will start non-stop race riots (how naive) and expressed a wish to see the Dalai Lama die.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:15 am | Comment

@Mike

He he he. That was a good video.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:19 am | Comment

US and China have basically the same attitude towards nation building. Everybody speaks the same English in the States, southern and Boston accents not withstanding. In China local dialects are fast disappearing. Both have a strong national government. Every local dispute can be settled in the highest court. This bodes well for the future world dominated by G2.

To the Westerners who bitch about China destroying Tibetan culture and Language, I say shut the f**k up. You should be grateful that nobody in China is proposing Putonghua only legislation in the upcoming People’s Congress, unlike in the US where there is the English Only movement.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:27 am | Comment

“This bodes well for the future world dominated by G2.”

You mean Inderica? (India+America)

See my post above.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:36 am | Comment

India would not even be in a G10, much less a G2.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:40 am | Comment

Serve
I had to look up the English Only movement. It’s a minority group – I don’t think it has too much power.
Don’t you think the destruction, rather than the gradual evolution of, a culture and language is to be mourned?
Also, don’t look only to the US as a template for “westerners” – we aren’t. There’s a heap of other models out there :-) I’d say look more to Europe – we’re a lot more like China wrt to a disparate set of cultures coalescing (and this after most of us were, at one stage, part of an Empire with a common lingua franca, etc).

March 3, 2010 @ 7:41 am | Comment

“This bodes well for the future world dominated by G2″
Hmmm…earthquakes in China, Haiti, Chile, tsunamis…2012 only two years away…is the future world going to be dominated by anyone??? read the signs, man, read the signs!

Sorry, sorry…could resist – taking foil hat off now…must be serious, stop joking…otherwise Pugwash will cry…

:-D

March 3, 2010 @ 7:44 am | Comment

I’d say look more to Europe – we’re a lot more like China wrt to a disparate set of cultures coalescing

The difference between the way Europe does things and the way China does is that Europe has a history of overseas adventurism, and is still facing the consequences (Islamic counterattacks, disgruntled immigrants, etc)

test post.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:47 am | Comment

Inderica? Some newspaper op-ed columnist had too much time to waste and came up with this. It reminds me the big India vs China debate a few years ago. Davos even made it a theme of one annual meeting. The Indians were pretty excited. Wow, we are being compared to the Chinese. A large delegation from India traveled to Davos to congratulate themselves. The only problem was that nobody from China showed up. You couldn’t find three people in China who were interested in the debate. That was pretty much the end of this silly exercise.

Now about G2. This is the future. In Copenhagen US and China hammered out a deal and the world endorsed it. Of course the Europeans were not happy. They just have to live with it. Next, the International Monetary Fund will be restructured. Many European seats will be given to China. And of course if there are more PIGS (thanks for the link, Mike) in Europe who needs a helping hand from IMF, well you know where you should go to ask.

March 3, 2010 @ 8:04 am | Comment

The problem with freedom is that history has shown again and again that you can’t do it half-a##ed. You can’t just open the door a little. People will ALWAYS want more and more. By holding it half cocked, you’re just gonna get it kicked in your face. Give em an inch and they’ll take a mile. No evidence needed. Time will be by judge.

March 3, 2010 @ 8:45 am | Comment

Serve
Yep, Europe is screwed, financially…according to many. And not just the PIGS – the UK is having a “Greek” moment too :-)
But hey, is the Chinese future so rosy? See comment 63 above (yeah, one of “those” pundits).

Let’s not make prediction about the future until it happens…

March 3, 2010 @ 10:40 am | Comment

History according to Merp:

…like Uighurs invading and stealing Urumqi

At least the ‘west’ aren’t implicated.

March 3, 2010 @ 11:01 am | Comment

To 82:
“Because of everyone screaming, democracy is perfect and flawless and does no wrong!”
—yet another example of arguing against something that no one is saying. If you could show me where on this blog one (1) person has even whispered that “democracy is perfect” etc, that would be grand. Seriously, dude, is it gratifying for you to argue against your own creative writing?

“If China were a democracy today, she would be invincible! The light of the world! Perfect and flawless!”
—I’m not even going to bother asking who supposedly said this. This sounds like something the voices in your head might say.

March 3, 2010 @ 1:05 pm | Comment

If China were a democracy today, she would be invincible! The light of the world! Perfect and flawless!”

Well… lets see.

Just some time ago after a failed economic program, called the big jump forward, elected chairman lost the elections, leaving a new coalition of progressive forces implement a less ambitious but more rational policy.

In recently developments, shortly after loosing the elections, some supporter of ousted chairman political faction set up demonstrations demanding the implementation of what he called a cultural revolution. Some incidents have been registered in which excited supporters behaved somewhat aggressively towards other citizens and cultural heritage sites.

Timely policy intervention prevented further damage. Some supporters have being taken by local police for questioning, but later released. Several demands have being presented on local courts requesting repairs for damages on people and property.

On an interview with local media, the former chairman denies any involved in the demonstrations and accuses the new coalition of conspiratory attempts to discredit him and his political faction.

More news at 11:00

March 3, 2010 @ 4:38 pm | Comment

If China were a democracy today, she would be invincible! The light of the world! Perfect and flawless!

Lunacy at its pinnacle.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:11 pm | Comment

so the Tibet issue is still about sovereignty

Actually, it is more the issue of the tributary states having to kowtow to the Imperial court of the Middle Kingdom. It has been “repackaged” in modern times as sovereignty. Guess what? The concept of “sovereignty” actually originated from the “evil West”.

March 3, 2010 @ 7:20 pm | Comment

Actually, it is more the issue of the tributary states having to kowtow to the Imperial court of the Middle Kingdom. It has been “repackaged” in modern times as sovereignty. Guess what? The concept of “sovereignty” actually originated from the “evil West”.

Ignorant as usual.

Kowtowing means little when you get huge subsidies (gifts) in return. The tribute system actually benefited China’s neighbors, more than anything else, as they received a large amount of valuable trade goods for only nominal support.

March 4, 2010 @ 7:00 am | Comment

“If China were a democracy today, she would be invincible! The light of the world! Perfect and flawless!

Lunacy at its pinnacle.”

Isn’t it the thing every body here, except one or two, has been advocating for China?
Ad hominem again. Surely running out of arguments?

March 4, 2010 @ 8:02 am | Comment

Isn’t it the thing every body here, except one or two, has been advocating for China?

Hey, numbnuts! Please point out who (other than Merp or HX) has been advocating invincibility, global illumination, perfection and flawlessness or lunacy for China? I advocate democracy because I believe that everybody should be able to choose. I certainly don’t believe that butterflies, kittens and rainbows will surely follow should your average Zhongguoren be enfranchised, and I don’t recall any commenters here who have.

Ad hominem again. Surely running out of arguments?

Seriously, nucklehead. Back your shit up.

March 4, 2010 @ 8:19 am | Comment

And more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7358474/Diary-of-Chinese-official-excerpts-reveal-life-of-drink-and-women.html

I rather liked this comment from the link in the comment above

“What is the fuss about?” wrote one anonymous man in Nanjing. “Mr Han seems a capable and clean official, one of the cleanest we have. Only 60,000 yuan in bribes is nothing. Our former mayor was regarded as clean even though he took at least six million yuan in bribes. We should target the ones who are more senior and more corrupt.”

March 4, 2010 @ 9:35 am | Comment

Isn’t it the thing every body here, except one or two, has been advocating for China?
Ad hominem again. Surely running out of arguments?

Merp is lunatic because he is arguing against arguments that he hoped we have put forth, rather than the actual argument we have stated.

The cheap tactic is to use America, Canada, India etc as the whipping boys in the hope to bring the demand for democracy down. Read: Just because democracy in America or anywhere else is less than perfect doesn’t mean you should throw the baby out together with the bath water. Democracy is a general ideal, not an object that is unique to certain nations.

March 4, 2010 @ 3:02 pm | Comment

The truth in the lips of children……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sZ0P_R2LIo&feature=player_embedded#at=12

answers the children gave when the reporter asked what they’d like to be once they grew up:

(After much head scratching) “I don’t know”

“A photographer”

“A painter”

“A pilot”

“A fireman, because firemen can help people put out fires”

And then there was this girl:

“I want to be an official”
[Reporter:] “What kind of official?”
“A corrupt official, because corrupt officials have a lot of things.”

March 4, 2010 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

Courtesy of danwei

http://www.danwei.org/featured_video/corrupt_officials_have_things.php

Is that the reason why youtube is blocked in China? ;-)

March 4, 2010 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

@Eco – had me on the floor in stitches :-D

Interesting NYT article
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/opinion/03friedman.html
Comments are interesting too…

March 5, 2010 @ 4:56 am | Comment

A “where is China heading” in Heading to China :-)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/asia_pacific/2009/where_will_china_be_in_60_years/default.stm

March 5, 2010 @ 6:28 am | Comment

@Twisted
I advocate democracy because I believe that everybody should be able to choose

Everyone getting to choose would mean that more or less each family or individual would have total independence, that isn’t what democracy is. Democracy is just 51% of the population riding roughshod over the 49%.

I don’t feel like explaining it once again but democracy does not equal rule of law, transparency, human rights, etc.

@Mike
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7358891/Sex-drink-and-mobile-phones-the-secret-life-of-a-Chinese-official.html

Clearly, because only Chinese officials cheat and drink! But yes, a higher standard is needed for Chinese officials. PRC citizens need to demand them, simply because they can’t afford to fuck up like the rich, thieving mass murderers of the West who are cushioned by their blood money.

@sptwo
The cheap tactic is to use America, Canada, India etc as the whipping boys in the hope to bring the demand for democracy down. Read: Just because democracy in America or anywhere else is less than perfect doesn’t mean you should throw the baby out together with the bath water.

The baby is rule of law, transparency, god I don’t feel like typing it again. The bath water would be mob rule and general stupidity.

Switzerland IMO is one of the “purest” forms of democracy. Their people vote to kick out blacks, Arabs, etc and the federal council rightfully defends this as the citizens expressing their democratic rights. I can’t imagine the screaming and howling of stuart if Chinese people voted to kick him and his wife out of China, lol. If China had that kind of democracy, white internet trolls would be up in arms about it, and demand that the CCP retake power and enforce draconian multiracialism laws.

@ecodelta
“I want to be an official”
[Reporter:] “What kind of official?”
“A corrupt official, because corrupt officials have a lot of things.”

Clever girl, however if she were in the West she probably would have said something similar- I want to be George Bush, because I can kill 1 million people, steal their natural resources, and get away with it!

Most American kids would just munch on their hamburgers and drool out some refined-sugar induced ADHD gibberish…

March 5, 2010 @ 8:04 am | Comment

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/28/beijings_labor_pains?obref=obinsite

“The problem is that China’s pervasive corruption is eroding people’s trust in the law. Popular frustration about the issue is one of the driving forces behind the rising signs of civil unrest around China. By one estimate, there were 127,467 “mass incidents” in China in 2008. In one government poll last year, 75 percent of respondents cited corruption as the number one problem facing the country. It’s easy to see how the resulting cynicism could poison the country’s future.”

March 5, 2010 @ 10:21 am | Comment

@Mike

But India is more corrupt than China!

See how easy it is to preempt merp and other trolls’ answers by now.

March 5, 2010 @ 10:26 am | Comment

“But yes, a higher standard is needed for Chinese officials. PRC citizens need to demand them,…”(diatribe deleted – purile nonsense…)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Human-t.html?hp

March 5, 2010 @ 11:14 am | Comment

Merp if we could get our hands on you here in the US, we would make sure that ICE would arrest you, throw you in a private detention center where you would be provided no access to counsel, held without charge indefinitely until you got sick and then withhold medical care from you. Ideally we would ship you to Egypt or Pakistan for interrogation to find out what kind of Chinese spy you really are. All of your fears about and hatred for the “West” in general, the United States, in particular, would finally be realized.

You are pathetic.

March 5, 2010 @ 12:30 pm | Comment

To 130:
“Everyone getting to choose would mean that more or less each family or individual would have total independence”
—it is mind boggling that you’ve yet to figure this out. In a democracy, people have a choice. It does NOT mean that every single individual’s choice carries the day. Every man would have to be an island if he expected to get his way every single time. But if you’re going to live in a society with other individuals, you’ll have to accept that you don’t always get what you want. Democracy does NOT guarantee that every single person gets what they want every single time. But it does allow for people to express what they would want…and if enough people want the same thing, then they get their wish. The difference is that, even with your crude understanding, you seem to be able to grasp that at least 51% get their way. Contrast that to the CCP system, where it’s the same 9 dudes out of 1.3 billion. Now, I suppose if you were among the 49% in a democracy, or among the 1,299,999,991 in China, you probably feel the same way. But at least those 49% had a shot at getting their way until the votes were counted. Those 1.3b-9 folks in China had no shot. And once again, i’d have to ask: that’s better how, exactly?

“democracy does not equal rule of law, transparency, human rights, etc.”
—and once again, who are you arguing against besides yourself. I agree that democracy does not equal those things, and you need those things for a society to function. But if/when those things are provided, I’d prefer to live in a democracy, whereas you’d prefer to live in an authoritarian system (except of course that you’re not…that remains a curious conundrum).

March 5, 2010 @ 2:01 pm | Comment

@mike

From your link.

“I live and work in China and I’m amazed on a daily basis not only by the rapid infrastructure growth that has so dazzled Mr. Friedman, but by the undercurrent of taking care of their fellow workers/countrymen that is so absent from Mr. Otellini’s diatribe. Many times I’ll visit a factory where automation could reduce headcount yet it is not done, not because there is no money, but because it would mean reducing jobs for their workers. The only places where this ethos is absent is in the multi-national companies that have come to China to take advantage of the labor and large market here. Little do they know that they do so on the terms of the Chinese government and in a few years time I predict that once the technology these companies bring to China can be perfected by local Chinese companies, they will be politely asked to leave by the government. If only the government of the US looked out for its citizens and economic well-being of the country in general rather than for being run solely for the varied Multinationals that run roughshod over our economy without so much as a slap on the wrist.”

That is very well said!

You may find this interesting.
http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/

Jobs are the current way to distribute the generated wealth through society. In the very near future, a system that should encourage job creation should be created.

The same way a carbon tax is planned for curving pollution, a job tax shoud be implemented to promote creation of an efficient job distribution through a society.

March 5, 2010 @ 3:28 pm | Comment

@merp

So a small kid in China want to be a corrupt official and in the US she will want to be president.

Fascinating.

By the way. Do you know that George W Bush make possible a deal that allowed access to cheaper medication in Africa?

Do you have any idea how many people were saved by that policy?

Some of the leftist here always were puzzled by the great receptions he got there.

March 5, 2010 @ 3:32 pm | Comment

I am always fascinated by these talk about maximizing shareholder value. It reminds me very much of Warren Buffet versus other fond managers.

Lets see some examples.
Company go to China because of costs. Company product cheaper to produce so it gets getter profit. Joint venture Chinese side get the technology. Eventually competitor arises with know how gotten almost for free. Profits of aforementioned company suffer.

High tech companies fully automated production. High tech companies fire all engineers because no longer needed. Hight tech companies get profit because lower costs. Because all engineers that bought tetchy things are jobless sales plummet. Because people see no reward in technical career, no engineers are available for development of new products.

Where is share holder value in the long run?

I prefer a manager like Warren Buffet that gives me constant value, that someone that gives 20% one year and nothing of minus nothing the next years.

We are missing the big picture.

March 5, 2010 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

@ferin/ yourfriend/ whatever pseudonym you take on after being banned
Re: “god I don’t feel like typing it again.”
Yet, of course, you will. What else might you have to do today?
And then, of course, you will eventually have to type it again, simply because your arguments (the epitome of ADHD gibberish) do not make the least bit of sense. Perhaps you have spent too much of your life in the horrid land of America? :P
Type away, but I strongly doubt that you’re winning many over to your cause, which seems mostly delusional. It all simply seems to be an attempt to make yourself feel better, as you are clearly not presenting reasoned arguments, but rather lashing out like a cornered animal.
Yet you keep typing, year after year.

March 5, 2010 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

@ferin
“China:
Enju
Sarikoli
Manchu (revival efforts are underway)”

One can’t even trust Ferin to abide by the sources he cites. Setting aside his optimistic appraisal of Manchurian, he completely evaded the issue of Macanese, listed in the source he cited. Four was just too non-harmonious for him, it seems! Three is better.

March 5, 2010 @ 4:02 pm | Comment

The tribute system actually benefited China’s neighbors,

Really? Then, it makes one wonder why the Vietnamese worshiped the Trung sisters as national heroines.. for resisting Chinese domination.

The Trung Sisters (c. 12 – AD 43), known in Vietnamese as Hai Bà Trưng (literally “the two Ladies Trưng”), and individually as Trưng Trắc (徵側) and Trưng Nhị (徵貳), were two 1st century Vietnamese women leaders who successfully rebelled against Chinese Han-Dynasty rule for three years, and are regarded as national heroines of Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trung_sisters

Who is the ignorant one here? Merp only need to look into the mirror to find out.

March 5, 2010 @ 4:40 pm | Comment

Democracy to Merp is what evolution is the Sarah Palin. I tell you, he’s a fundy :-D The signs are all there!

March 6, 2010 @ 6:41 am | Comment

@Mike
“The problem is that China’s pervasive corruption is eroding people’s trust in the law. Popular frustration about the issue is one of the driving forces behind the rising signs of civil unrest around China. By one estimate, there were 127,467 “mass incidents” in China in 2008. In one government poll last year, 75 percent of respondents cited corruption as the number one problem facing the country. It’s easy to see how the resulting cynicism could poison the country’s future.”

This is more of a sign of the complacency of American, Indian, British, etc citizens than anything else. They’re so deluded by the democracy illusion that they don’t know their nations are the most corrupt and non-egalitarian in the world.

@Not_a_Sinophile
Merp if we could get our hands on you here in the US, we would make sure that ICE would arrest you, throw you in a private detention center where you would be provided no access to counsel, held without charge indefinitely until you got sick and then withhold medical care from you. Ideally we would ship you to Egypt or Pakistan for interrogation to find out what kind of Chinese spy you really are. All of your fears about and hatred for the “West” in general, the United States, in particular, would finally be realized.

So America’s true colors come out. This isn’t about China, or democracy, or freedom, or better lives for Chinese people- this is all about a bunch of bitter old white men who are paranoid and hold a grudge.

But thanks for elaborating on a point that is clear to everyone- America tortures people, assassinates freely outside of their borders, detains people without evidence and provides prisoners no care, butchers millions on a whim, steals natural resources from poor nations, installs dictators, topples democracies, harasses and coerces sovereign nations.

This is the America N_a_S loves SO much that he wants to use “nukes” to “put China in its place”. And “not just the government, but the people”. Interesting N_a_S, it seems like your racial ego along with your racial stupidity will be the end of you.

http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/10/george-soros-china-rising-us-declining/

My favorite N_a_S quote:

Not_a_Sinophile said

It’s a shame that Soros uttered his prediction. On the other hand it could act as a “wake up” call to the US. If there ever was a time to engage with the rest of the world it is now. Developing a real alternative energy resource industry, freeing ourselves from the yoke of petroleum, rededicating ourselves to excellence in education, expanding scientific research (including real space exploration….not space shuttle BS), developing the most sophisticated communication systems, rebuilding our infrastructure would keep the Chinese in their place (a third rate nation of subsistence farmers) for decades to come….. maybe even forever. We wouldn’t even have to fire a shot militarily. By maintaining leadership (and in many ways regaining leadership) the US would defeat the Chinese (the government AND the people) through sheer superiority.

If the US doesn’t have the collective political will to do that then all, less desirable alternative to keeping the Chinese in their (place) should be explored….no matter what the human cost.

So how do you keep your “Chinese” “wife” in “her place”, N_a_S? I think if we forced her to watch her green card provider get slowly sliced apart in a death by 1,000 cuts, and then a pull-apart-by-horses, that would suffice. I wonder what would happen to you and your property if your threats of nuclear warfare against the Chinese were discovered.

Turn on the human flesh search engine!

@S.K Cheung
In a democracy, people have a choice. It does NOT mean that every single individual’s choice carries the day

“The people have a choice” is what you keep shouting and screaming and crying about. I guess “the people” is just a faceless mob, and it doesn’t matter if your personal choice and freedom is restricted by a sociopathic majority.

No thanks to that then. I’d even prefer Singapore’s system.

Every man would have to be an island if he expected to get his way every single time. But if you’re going to live in a society with other individuals, you’ll have to accept that you don’t always get what you want.

So some people just have to accept that America invaded Iraq? Would a minority of Germans just have to accept Adolf Hitler too? Nor was Taiwan able to actually take legal action against CSB until he was out of office. There are times when people vote for absolutely immoral, evil things that should not be acceptable to any sane human being. You seem to think that 10,000 random people are better to consult with (10,000 people who major interests have spent billions trying to influence) than 1,000 experts. Sure, opinion polls have their uses, but the power of the mob is not properly checked in many democracies. And you should stop glorifying them.

Democracy does NOT guarantee that every single person gets what they want every single time.

It doesn’t even guarantee that everyone is treated reasonably well, either. You can be like the American Indians, who get the short end of the stick every time around because they’re only 2% of the electorate. Or gays and lesbians.

Contrast that to the CCP system, where it’s the same 9 dudes out of 1.3 billion.

And in a democracy you get to pick 1 “dude” out of 2 “dudes”. Dressed up and served to you by corporations and leveraged interests, like a steaming pile of shit with the sweetest sugar sprinkled on top.

Those 1.3b-9 folks in China had no shot. And once again, i’d have to ask: that’s better how, exactly?

The point is, it isn’t. It’s not worse either. 9 people can be just as irrational and antisocial as 100 million.

whereas you’d prefer to live in an authoritarian system

Like Singapore? Or pre-1992 Taiwan? Where would I prefer to live, hmm I don’t care really. Again, I have no problem surviving in poor or authoritarian nations.

@ecodelta
Do you know that George W Bush make possible a deal that allowed access to cheaper medication in Africa?

Cheaper? You mean slightly cheaper than the exorbitant price they are gouged for now? I didn’t keep track honestly, link me if you can.

Company go to China because of costs. Company product cheaper to produce so it gets getter profit. Joint venture Chinese side get the technology. Eventually competitor arises with know how gotten almost for free. Profits of aforementioned company suffer.

It makes perfect sense, ecodelta. Shareholders and execs don’t live forever, so they’re not thinking about 30, 50, 100 years down the line.

High tech companies fire all engineers because no longer needed. Hight tech companies get profit because lower costs. Because all engineers that bought tetchy things are jobless sales plummet. Because people see no reward in technical career, no engineers are available for development of new products.

This one is a bit of a stretch. It sounds like you’re an engineer.

@sptwo
Really? Then, it makes one wonder why the Vietnamese worshiped the Trung sisters as national heroines.. for resisting Chinese domination.

Revisionism. They are regarded as national heroes because Vietnam and China had a war in 1979, in case you forgot.

That and of course, they fought for independence… technically. Not that “China” was even trying to hold onto Vietnam. If they wanted to keep them, they would have- definitely.

Who is the ignorant one here?

I don’t see you in the mirror.

@kevinapoplecticwhiner
do not make the least bit of sense.

To simpletons, perhaps.

but I strongly doubt that you’re winning many over to your cause

I am. But they’re all Chinese, not necessarily from the PRC. Of course we can’t win mentally retarded bigots from the West onto our side- but we can be prepared to destroy them if need be.

as you are clearly not presenting reasoned arguments, but rather lashing out like a cornered animal.
Yet you keep typing, year after year.

And you’re the ones clenching your fists, blood pressure rising, as the only person with the patience to teach you how the world works so generously educates you and your clueless ilk. Talk about ingratitude!

One can’t even trust Ferin to abide by the sources he cites. Setting aside his optimistic appraisal of Manchurian, he completely evaded the issue of Macanese, listed in the source he cited. Four was just too non-harmonious for him, it seems! Three is better.

Because it’s not the PRC’s responsibility to preserve Macanese. Unless you believe firmly in an unwavering one China (that is, the PRC) principle- even then, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan are de facto self ruling.

March 6, 2010 @ 7:04 am | Comment

at the only person* works to generously to educate you*

etc.

March 6, 2010 @ 7:11 am | Comment

fail

works so generously*

March 6, 2010 @ 7:16 am | Comment

“This is more of a sign of the complacency of American, Indian, British, etc citizens than anything else. They’re so deluded by the democracy illusion that they don’t know their nations are the most corrupt and non-egalitarian in the world.”
Which, I assume, is why you chose to live there?

March 6, 2010 @ 11:24 am | Comment

To 143:
““the people” is just a faceless mob, and it doesn’t matter if your personal choice and freedom is restricted by a sociopathic majority.”
—I readily concede that, in a democracy, not every single individual’s personal choice on every single matter will rule the day every single time. I’ve said this several times before, but it seems to be beyond your level of comprehension. In fact, I’d like you to show me a system that so provides. However, if you’re suggesting that authoritarianism is better than democracy, then why do you say so? How is it better for 9 people out of 1.3 billion making decisions than for 51% of the population of any given democratic state (and yet again suspending all the mechanisms that keep tyranny of the majority in check, which you repeatedly and conveniently ignore).

“I’d even prefer Singapore’s system.”
—WHAT?!? What about your beloved CCP? Oh dear, so first you complain about democracy while availing yourself to the benefits thereof. Then you can’t even find it within yourself to voice preference for the mother of all authoritarian states? What is this world coming to?

“Nor was Taiwan able to actually take legal action against CSB until he was out of office.”
—I wonder, IF Hu Jintao were ever guilty of corruption (I’m not saying he is, just wondering how PRC’s system would deal with it), what are the chances that he’d end up like CSB?

“than 1,000 experts.”
—(a) who gets to decide who constitutes an “expert”? (b) and these experts might themselves be beholden to…?

“You can be like the American Indians, who get the short end of the stick every time”
—here we go again. What’s “short end of stick”? What’s “every time”?

“And in a democracy you get to pick 1 “dude” out of 2 “dudes”.”
—(a) can you just for a millisecond look beyond the American system? You should realize that you’re not even arguing against democracy; at the very best, you’re arguing against the American iteration thereof.
(b) even then, you also get to vote for a senator, and a representative. And you do this every 4 – 6 years, depending on what you’re voting for. And that’s just on the federal level. Then you’ve got all the state and municipal stuff as well. Time to broaden your scope a little bit.

“It’s not worse either.”
—ok, at the very least, mathematically it’s worse. I’m glad you’re not trying to contend that it’s better. But on what basis do you suggest that it’s not worse?
“9 people can be just as irrational and antisocial as 100 million.”
—I suppose they can be. But do you think it more likely, even if we just speak in terms of odds, of having 9 bad apples, or having 100 million bad apples.

“Like Singapore? Or pre-1992 Taiwan? Where would I prefer to live, hmm I don’t care really.”
—and yet, stated preferences notwithstanding, we find you here. Interesting. I’d say that’s (ahem) voting with your feet, if you’ll pardon the pun, which is of course very much intended.

March 6, 2010 @ 2:53 pm | Comment

“Where would I prefer to live, hmm I don’t care really. Again, I have no problem surviving in poor or authoritarian nations.”

Yeah, right :-) That’s why you live in the good old US of A! So easy to talk the talk when you bask in luxury… I’ll bet your…oh, hang on, you’re not even from the PRC…not even your own countryfolk…I’ll bet a heap of those you speak for are jealous as hell for your good fortune.

Merp, keep talking. It’s all bullshit from your end – you don’t even want to live in the PRC. Put your money where your mouth is, then do the talk. Until then, you’re just….nothing but a spoilt kid who could pass his exmas and mommy and daddy paid for his tuition in the one country that would take him.

March 6, 2010 @ 5:01 pm | Comment

They are regarded as national heroes because Vietnam and China had a war in 1979, in case you forgot.

Sino-Vietnamese adversary is a long-standing issue which dates back to thousands of years of animosity.

By the way, did you even get a decent pass for your high school history? Your peculiar diatribes indicates that you probably flunk it.

March 7, 2010 @ 2:48 am | Comment

I don’t see you in the mirror.

Geez, I am worried for your schizophrenic mind. You actually attempt to use a mirror to look someone who you have never meet face to face before. Have your medications just ran out before your next consultation?

March 7, 2010 @ 2:54 am | Comment

@SK
I readily concede that, in a democracy, not every single individual’s personal choice on every single matter will rule the day every single time.

That wasn’t the point and never was. I’m not going to throw my arms up in the air and scream “straw man” like you love to, but that is what you are doing- my point is that even the most BASIC rights of an individual are not safeguarded, or have not been safeguarded from the mob in most contemporary democracies. The most recent issues I can think of is extradition for torture, assassinations overseas, and how a slim majority can deny marriage rights to a minority for no logical reason.

In Switzerland, communities can kick people out of the nation based on their race and religion. I respect their democratic right to do that, but what do you think of it? Switzerland, as far as I know, is among the most democratic of nations.

How is it better for 9 people out of 1.3 billion making decisions than for 51% of the population of any given democratic state

It isn’t worse either.

WHAT?!? What about your beloved CCP? Oh dear, so first you complain about democracy while availing yourself to the benefits thereof. Then you can’t even find it within yourself to voice preference for the mother of all authoritarian states? What is this world coming to?

WHAT?!? What about your beloved India? Oh dear, so first you complain about authoritarianism while availing yourself to the benefits thereof. Then you can’t even find it within yourself to voice preference for the mother of all democratic states? What is this world coming to?

I wonder, IF Hu Jintao were ever guilty of corruption (I’m not saying he is, just wondering how PRC’s system would deal with it), what are the chances that he’d end up like CSB?

Who knows? Many officials in China have been killed off, purged, or sent to work camps.

(a) who gets to decide who constitutes an “expert”? (b) and these experts might themselves be beholden to…?

Who decides who gets hired to top positions? Who decides which applicants are allowed to attend prestigious schools? Who decides who gets into the NBA or NFL? Obviously you work out the prerequisites. They would of course, be beholden to the function they serve- among them, the citizens of their country.

here we go again. What’s “short end of stick”? What’s “every time”?

Look on wikipedia or something.

can you just for a millisecond look beyond the American system? You should realize that you’re not even arguing against democracy; at the very best, you’re arguing against the American iteration thereof.

Oh okay then what democracy do you suggest for China, because your open ended arguments and lack of ideas is getting repetitive. Canada? So the CCP and their supporters can kill everyone they don’t like and everyone else won’t be a citizen until the economy develops and stabilizes.. sounds great.

even then, you also get to vote for a senator, and a representative.

Half of them serve corporations, another half serve themselves. Even dinky, worthless states such as Kentucky get 2 Senators. This is why they are so heavily subsidized by larger states- which is tyranny.

But on what basis do you suggest that it’s not worse?

100 million idiots is no better than 9 idiots. In fact they’re often worse- if you look into the psychology of mobs. They are simply more aggressive and remorseless. Then again you are overestimating the power of the politburo as well.

I suppose they can be. But do you think it more likely, even if we just speak in terms of odds, of having 9 bad apples, or having 100 million bad apples.

It doesn’t work that way. You just need the 100 million bad apples to organize themselves into a political party, squirt out 20 babies a decade, and you have a ruined nation. This is what Americans call “the republican party”

and yet, stated preferences notwithstanding, we find you here. Interesting. I’d say that’s (ahem) voting with your feet, if you’ll pardon the pun, which is of course very much intended.

Right and all the foreign execs in China are voting with their feet. Don’t be stupid. Oh and I’m sure the Native Americans are voting with their feet too.

@Mike Goldthorpe
Yeah, right :-) That’s why you live in the good old US of A! So easy to talk the talk when you bask in luxury… I’ll bet your…oh, hang on, you’re not even from the PRC…not even your own countryfolk…I’ll bet a heap of those you speak for are jealous as hell for your good fortune.

If I live in luxury, your wife is a three-titted whore. Don’t make assumptions about things you don’t understand- this is a fundamental pathology of the Western mind.

Merp, keep talking. It’s all bullshit from your end – you don’t even want to live in the PRC. Put your money where your mouth is,

Mike, keep talking. It’s all bullshit from your end – you don’t even want to live in India. Put your money where your mouth is.

@sptwo
Sino-Vietnamese adversary is a long-standing issue which dates back to thousands of years of animosity.

Dates back to thousands of years of your wet dreams, perhaps.

you probably flunk it.

You probably flunk it! Your peculiar diatribes suggest that you are mentally challenged.

March 7, 2010 @ 7:16 am | Comment

Dates back to thousands of years of your wet dreams, perhaps.

That more recent Chinese invasion, like many during 2,000 years of animosity between Vietnam and China,

http://patrick.guenin2.free.fr/cantho/vnnews/china99.htm

Facts to you are wet dreams? You are truly one of a kind, ferin/merp.

March 7, 2010 @ 12:13 pm | Comment

“If I live in luxury, your wife is a three-titted whore. Don’t make assumptions about things you don’t understand- this is a fundamental pathology of the Western mind.”
No, she’s got the normal Chinese woman’s two tits…both used to feed our Eurasian daughters. You STILL live in the US, mind… Not making assumprtions – you’re sure as hell not in the PRC and you sure as hell aren’t making moves there :-)

“Mike, keep talking. It’s all bullshit from your end – you don’t even want to live in India. Put your money where your mouth is.”
No shit Sherlock! Where did I ever say I wanted to live in that god forsaken country? I chose to emigrate from the UK to New Zealand – if I wanted to live in India I would have done, fuckwit! Like you, I know what lifestyle I like to live in! You live in the US, I live in NZ…we both know how to feather our nests!

Soooo….you got anything else stupid to say? I know you’re only a student who can’t pass exams in Taiwan (or even the PRC) so you need Mama and Papa to pay for your education in the US, one of the few countries that would take you…. Show me I’m wrong…

I wonder…you mama and papa run away from Uncle Mao? Did they come into Taiwan with Cash My Check? I bet they did….

March 7, 2010 @ 1:12 pm | Comment

Who knows? Many officials in China have been killed off, purged, or sent to work camps.

Pure naivety and brainwashed by the state media. While the Party mouthpiece often trumpets the death penalties and long jail sentences for those who were caught, how high are the odds of being caught in the first place? Answer: Negligible.

“The data on the punishment of government officials is also not encouraging. The probabilities of officials getting caught and punished are both small. At the ministry level, the chance of corrupt officials getting caught is about 1 in 10. The rate is about half of that for county level officials, where 90% of corrupt officials operate. Of those that get caught, the number of officials that get sentenced by criminal courts is about 6.6%, a negligible number. The intrinsic problem here is that the penalty for corruption is too light while the risks of engaging in corrupt activities are also too low.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/?fa=eventDetail&id=284

March 7, 2010 @ 2:16 pm | Comment

To 152:
“my point is that even the most BASIC rights of an individual are not safeguarded”
—well isn’t that funny. If this was your “point”, then why not make it a week ago? It’s like you try to make a point (for instance, your recent fascination with how 49% of people get screwed in a democracy), I shoot it down, then you say “wait, that was never my point; THIS is my point”. Whatever you say, pal. We’ll see what your “point” becomes tomorrow.

And you know what? You are correct about your point-of-the-day. Democracy by itself (if you want to limit the discussion strictly to the concept, without the real world accoutrements that co-exist with its application) does not guarantee basic (or human, if you will) rights. I also never said that democracy guarantees human rights. Constitutions and laws do. However, an authoritarian system does not guarantee human rights either (and of course in the CCP we have as shining an example of that as one could ever ask for). So if your metric is “guarantee of human right”, in isolation, it’s probably a wash. Of course, the differences come with their real-world application. And if there’s one thing that the CCP is good for, it’s being a real-life cautionary tale.

“It isn’t worse either.”
—ok, seems you’re not one to be swayed by mathematics. Mathematics is probably too logical for you.

“first you complain about authoritarianism while availing yourself to the benefits thereof”
—like I’ve said several times before, imitation is the highest form of flattery. It’s too bad that flattery coming from you isn’t worth much. btw, i’ll leave you to figure out how this statement doesn’t even apply. And if that’s not clear enough for you, I’d offer the example that I can say jumping out of a plane without a parachute is a bad idea, even though I’ve never tried it. Sometimes, when you copy something, you still need to make subtle changes for it to make sense. Better luck next time.

“Many officials in China have been killed off, purged, or sent to work camps.”
—I’d settle for jail terms. Those poor saps probably would have, too.

“Who decides who gets into the NBA or NFL? Obviously you work out the prerequisites.”
—of course. But in all your examples, people are making selections based on their assessment of merits as they apply to their private ventures. Who plays PG on the Cavaliers to deliver the ball to Lebron doesn’t matter to people who don’t care about the NBA. BUt when it comes to “prerequisites” for running the country, that is something that affects everyone, and it’s something everyone might have some interest in. So, in your system, who gets to decide those? Oh, that’s right, your favourite 9 dudes.

“Look on wikipedia or something.”
—you’re right. Wiki would probably offer up better arguments than you.

“what democracy do you suggest for China”
—I would like to see a democratic system in China, applied in a way as seen fit by Chinese people. It’s for them to decide. It certainly has no need to look like Canada’s system, or the American system, or anyone else’s system.

“So the CCP and their supporters can kill everyone…”
—if there’s one thing you don’t mind, it’s to say the same thing over and over…

“Even dinky, worthless states such as Kentucky get 2 Senators.”
—if anything, this system was put in place to counter-balance the potential for tyranny of the majority. Sparsely populated states get the same voice as densely populated ones. BUt at the same time, you could argue that this is somewhat counter to the fundamental concept of democracy. That being said, you need to pick one. You could either say that democracy exposes you to the risk of tyranny of the majority, and acknowledge that the Senate in the US system mitigates this to a certain degree; or you could say that the Senate by itself is undemocratic, while acknowledging that this is counterbalanced by the other branches of government in the US system. But it makes no sense to argue both, which is what you seem to like to do.

“100 million idiots is no better than 9 idiots.”
—if a person can be an idiot or not, then the odds of the former are 1/2 to the 100 millionth power; for the later, it’s 1/2 to the 9th power. Do you need me to tell you which one is more likely?

“Then again you are overestimating the power of the politburo as well.”
—is there something more powerful than “all-powerful”?

“This is what Americans call “the republican party””
—guess what? You’ve just exercised the right to assess the members of the GOP as idiots. And you can next put that right to work in the mid term elections later this year. That is also the exact same right that Chinese people don’t have, even if they think the Politburo are a bunch of doofs.

“all the foreign execs in China are voting with their feet.”
—if those execs in China are complaining about China’s authoritarian system, then they are being hypocritical. Right now the only hypocrisy on display is yours.

March 7, 2010 @ 4:54 pm | Comment

To Merp, here is your comment and threat:

“So how do you keep your “Chinese” “wife” in “her place”, N_a_S? I think if we forced her to watch her green card provider get slowly sliced apart in a death by 1,000 cuts, and then a pull-apart-by-horses, that would suffice. I wonder what would happen to you and your property if your threats of nuclear warfare against the Chinese were discovered.
Turn on the human flesh search engine!”

Based on the last two sentences I have filed a complaint with the Department of Homeland Security to investigate your threats against a U.S. citizen while a guest in this country. I have been informed that they take all such threats seriously. Your IP address will be investigated and further action may result in the revocation of your visa and immediate deportation.

While my unfortunate tirades in the past keep coming back to haunt me, they were the empty words of someone who was as frustrated with his own nation’s policies as much as they were a rant against a convenient (though thoroughly misplaced) “enemy.” Still they are allowed under of system of free speech. Personal threats, however, are not. I’m interested to see you continue to spout off now.

March 8, 2010 @ 5:59 am | Comment

@Mike
No, she’s got the normal Chinese woman’s two tits…both used to feed our Eurasian daughters

Not a Thai or Filipino?

No shit Sherlock! Where did I ever say I wanted to live in that god forsaken country?

First you said it was “doing well”, now you’re saying it’s god forsaken? Because India was a democracy from the ground up- Britain and America were not. I have no problem living in China, or Singapore, or Taiwan when it was authoritarian. You, on the other hand, need the privilege and comforts afforded by long years of genocide.

I know you’re only a student who can’t pass exams in Taiwan (or even the PRC) so you need Mama and Papa to pay for your education in the US, one of the few countries that would take you…. Show me I’m wrong…

Are you saying that ROC and PRC students are smarter than Western students and thus score higher on their tests? hohoho

@sptwo
The probabilities of officials getting caught and punished are both small. At the ministry level, the chance of corrupt officials getting caught is about 1 in 10.

Is there any chance that the worst war criminal of the past 30 years, George Bush, will ever be sentenced to anything? I didn’t think so. 1 out of 10 is better than 0 out of 10- but that wasn’t the point. Read a bit more into the CCP’s history.

@S.K Cheung
without the real world accoutrements that co-exist with its application

These real world accoutrements are not inherent in democracy- they were developed alongside various systems all throughout world history. Again, democracy at it’s philosophical “base” in Athens did not accord much in the realm of human rights- that is, 90% of the population was not “special” enough.

ok, seems you’re not one to be swayed by mathematics. Mathematics is probably too logical for you.

Because “mathematics” don’t predict human dynamics. Or rather, human behavior is not linear. That’s probably your fundamental defect.

btw, i’ll leave you to figure out how this statement doesn’t even apply.

It does, perfectly- you live it up on the blood of the First Nations. Back when Canada wasn’t exactly a democracy. Go move to a country that has always been democratic- like India.

What you prefer is not democracy but the comforts of a “first world” imperialist life, at the expense of the indigenous and the world at large.

BUt when it comes to “prerequisites” for running the country, that is something that affects everyone, and it’s something everyone might have some interest in. So, in your system, who gets to decide those?

Reason. Not the mob.

I would like to see a democratic system in China

You can’t even define democracy properly, and your knowledge base is so shallow that you don’t even recognize historical examples like Athens and Nazi Germany. America and Canada’s versions are unacceptable for the Chinese as well- they’re not about to kill every non-Mandarin speaker.

if anything, this system was put in place to counter-balance the potential for tyranny of the majority. Sparsely populated states get the same voice as densely populated ones. BUt at the same time, you could argue that this is somewhat counter to the fundamental concept of democracy. That being said, you need to pick one. You could either say that democracy exposes you to the risk of tyranny of the majority, and acknowledge that the Senate in the US system mitigates this to a certain degree; or you could say that the Senate by itself is undemocratic, while acknowledging that this is counterbalanced by the other branches of government in the US system. But it makes no sense to argue both, which is what you seem to like to do.

It was, but all it does is create a tyranny of the stupid based on state lines. Relatively speaking, state lines are arbitrary- at least they have become arbitrary. All this accomplishes now is benefit one political party based on imaginary lines. It’s advantageous for one group of people if they move to and demographically take over a less populous state, as it gives them disproportionate voice- one they overwhelmingly use to obstruct “consensus”.

It makes perfect sense to argue both- democracy is not so much founded on a set of unassailable principles, but on ruthlessness like outbreeding your opponent, abusing loopholes, and brainwashing.

if a person can be an idiot or not, then the odds of the former are 1/2 to the 100 millionth power; for the later, it’s 1/2 to the 9th power. Do you need me to tell you which one is more likely?

You’re obviously delusional. Again, this is your fundamental illness- seeing each person as just a statistic with a predictable set of behaviors. Certain political groups form themselves based on superstition and hatred- both of which are signs of stupidity.

http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/McDaniel%20%282006%29%20Estimating%20state%20IQ.pdf

Go to page 6.

Then look at this, most people hate the site. However, it’s the only place I could google up the real data on (that wasn’t infected with all sorts of crap).

http://vdare.com/sailer/061022_iq_table.htm

As you can see, one party simply revolves around being stupid.

Now look at this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2165/2994934040_ca5b05d221.jpg

No wonder Cali is going bankrupt, they have to subsidize Sarah Palin’s state. Isn’t that ironic, considering the “red states” are against big government and “subsidies”. To anyone with sense, there is no reason why democrats and republicans should remain in the same country.

guess what? You’ve just exercised the right to assess the members of the GOP as idiots. And you can next put that right to work in the mid term elections later this year. That is also the exact same right that Chinese people don’t have, even if they think the Politburo are a bunch of doofs.

A woman killed an official and rightfully was not charged with murder, so it’s not as straightforward as you mention. Regardless, I could criticize the GOP in any country on the planet.

Based on the last two sentences I have filed a complaint with the Department of Homeland Security to investigate your threats against a U.S. citizen while a guest in this country. I have been informed that they take all such threats seriously. Your IP address will be investigated and further action may result in the revocation of your visa and immediate deportation.

lol. I’m sure they’ll get right on it after they process all other 1 billion internet insults. This just shows how deranged and cowardly you are, N_a_S.

While my unfortunate tirades in the past keep coming back to haunt me, they were the empty words of someone who was as frustrated

This pretty much sums up your entire life.

as much as they were a rant against a convenient (though thoroughly misplaced) “enemy.”

Yes, this is typical white behavior- make a racial enemy out of someone who is far away and minding his own business to justify genocide. You did it with the blacks, you did it with the Indians, you did it with the Southeast Asians, and you do it now with the Arabs. Try that with the East Asians and it will be the last mistake your civilization will have ever made.

Still they are allowed under of system of free speech. Personal threats, however, are not. I’m interested to see you continue to spout off now.

Like your “personal threats” to have me tortured without due process? Funny, that is also typical white behavior.

March 8, 2010 @ 7:18 am | Comment

“You, on the other hand, need the privilege and comforts afforded by long years of genocide.”
Yep, the Cultural Revolution was good for the west :-) Made us rich…

March 8, 2010 @ 9:39 am | Comment

“Try that with the East Asians and it will be the last mistake your civilization will have ever made.”
Ummm, we already did it…

March 8, 2010 @ 9:41 am | Comment

Yep, the Cultural Revolution was good for the west :-) Made us rich…

Pure stupidity.

Ummm, we already did it…

and given your whining about China, and Vietnam, and Korea, I’m guessing you regret it ;-)

March 8, 2010 @ 10:47 am | Comment

George Bush, will ever be sentenced to anything?

Geez, i don’t think telling them stories about Dubya will appease the anger and sadness of parents whose children died because corrupt officials built “tofu” school buildings to get rich and get away scot-free.

March 8, 2010 @ 12:59 pm | Comment

To 158:
“These real world accoutrements are not inherent in democracy”
—then in which/what world are you arguing against democracy? Don’t know about you, but I live in the real one. Besides, I had already said this in 156(“So if your metric is “guarantee of human right”, in isolation, it’s probably a wash. Of course, the differences come with their real-world application. And if there’s one thing that the CCP is good for, it’s being a real-life cautionary tale.”).

“Because “mathematics” don’t predict human dynamics.”
—then please share with me what testable basis you use to say that the Politburo serves the people better than the people themselves. I’d add that if your belief is based on something that’s not testable…well…many people call that religion.

“you live it up on the blood of the First Nations.”
—you invoke this at the drop of a hat, without any clue of what you’re talking about.

“So, in your system, who gets to decide those?

Reason. Not the mob.”
—it’s like playing 20 questions with a kid. On whose reasoning would such decisions be based?

“they’re not about to kill every non-Mandarin speaker.”
—and where did I suggest this? I’ve lost count of the number of times you’ve argued against something I never said. Is that fun for you? I don’t presume to know what Chinese people want, which is why I think it best if they have a system that allows them to decide for themselves. You, on the other hand, would like to decide for them. Rather arrogant, wouldn’t you say? Considering that you don’t even live there, what makes you a better judge of what’s best for them than they are? This I’d love to hear.

“tyranny of the stupid based on state lines”
—OMG. Just because someone votes differently than you makes them stupid? You have an interesting POV…rather self-centered, I’d say. Probably the same trait that allows you to think that you are better equipped to say what’s better for Chinese citizens than they are.

“It makes perfect sense to argue both- democracy…”
—once again, “both” refers to characteristics of the US system. You constantly argue against the US system and misconstrue that as an argument against democracy. What is your impediment?

“To anyone with sense, there is no reason why democrats and republicans should remain in the same country.”
—yet 340 million people continue to coexist in one country. So either 340 million people are stupid, or you are. I wonder how the odds work out for those 2 possibilities.

“A woman killed an official and rightfully was not charged with murder”
—didn’t you just finish trying to argue that laws are not part of democracy? So how does the presence or absence of a murder charge have anything to do with the people’s ability to exercise democratic rights, or lack thereof? Take your time.

“I could criticize the GOP in any country on the planet.”
—sure you could. But you live in a country where you can express that criticism on a ballot. People can criticize the CCP too, and probably within China as well. But that’s as far as it goes, even if you live in China. That, in a nutshell, would be the difference.

March 8, 2010 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

“and given your whining about China, and Vietnam, and Korea, I’m guessing you regret it”
Whining? Moi? You’re the one complaining about nasty ol’ whiteys all the time ;-) I personally think it came out great. Western forces got land around Shanghai, made it wildly successful, which attracted people who married and had kids and who, ultimately, begat my wife.

Je ne regret rien, old boy.

Still can’t see it as the last mistake we’d make…as you suggested. We did it and, whoopsy daisy, we went and made more mistakes afterwards. Your assertion is therefore wrong.

On another note, reading your diatribes make me smile. Heard that purile guff so many times before, from whites, blacks, browns and yellows :-D Reading your comment above makes sense when you play this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzeNj1vlzAk in the background ;-)

More historical resonances…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqSJzpfWRj4

March 8, 2010 @ 4:42 pm | Comment

A woman killed an official and rightfully was not charged with murder

While the decision not to charge is one with compassion, it reflects that the current legal system in China does not allow people channels to redress their grievances against corrupt officials such that they have to take law into their own hands. A rough system you have under the Party indeed, isn’t it?

March 8, 2010 @ 6:40 pm | Comment

@SK Cheung

Merp, you’re going to have to make that comment a little nicer before it’s published.

Richard

March 8, 2010 @ 11:27 pm | Comment

George Bush, will ever be sentenced to anything?

Let me illustrate the absurdity more vividly..

Parent: (Sobs)Will justice be done? Will the Party ever bring those responsible for building “tofu” structures ever be sentenced? My only child has been killed by corruption!

Merp:??? What the heck are you whining about? Is there any chance that the worst war criminal of the past 30 years, George Bush, will ever be sentenced to anything?

Parent:!!!???…….

March 9, 2010 @ 2:20 pm | Comment

Your ego is astounding, are you presuming that your own inexplicable [deleted] vendetta against the CCP is equivalent to the suffering of the victims of the Sichuan Earthquake?

March 14, 2010 @ 3:41 am | Comment

Your ego is astounding, are you presuming that your own inexplicable [deleted] vendetta against the CCP is equivalent to the suffering of the victims of the Sichuan Earthquake?

I take this diatribe of yours as an admission that you can’t explain how GWB’s impunity from his actions has anything got to do with scourge of corruption under the CCP. Try harder next time.

March 15, 2010 @ 9:30 pm | Comment

“Based on the last two sentences I have filed a complaint with the Department of Homeland Security to investigate your threats against a U.S. citizen while a guest in this country.”

WOW!WOW!WOW!

I am truly flabberhasted.

March 21, 2010 @ 8:13 am | Comment

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