Foreign Devils

Update: I want to take back a part of this post. I wrote the Nazi comparison in great haste, and I probably shouldn’t have, because Nazi is such a super-charged word. Anyone reading the text will see I am not saying Chinese people are like Nazis, and actually say the opposite: “Let me add, however, that while most gullible Germans ate this up, I strongly believe most Chinese are going to reject the race baiting that is setting the Internets ablaze today.” The Chinese will react responsibly and not like Nazis. What I thought was comparable was the use of race-baiting terms like “foreign trash” and sstereotyping many foreigners as spies, law breakers and enemies of China. Racial stereotyping was what I was alluding to. But in retrospect, I should have avoided that term and should have know that its use would be misunderstood by many.

Scapegoats are marvelous tools for energizing the masses. Especially when they are based on race. Der Stuermer, an Nazi rag published by Julius Streicher, often depicted images of grotesquely stereotyped Jews (big noses, fiendish) molesting pure, young beautiful German maidens. It was a successful campaign. Many really believed this was what Jews were, what they did. And it was a conspiracy, designed to pollute German blood and tear down German greatness. Let me add, however, that while most gullible Germans ate this up, I strongly believe most Chinese are going to reject the race baiting that is setting the Internets ablaze today. They are too suspicious of their government at the moment and are getting good at seeing through the government’s propaganda.

Although comparisons with Nazis are used too frequently and can induce groans, it’s nevertheless the first thing I thought of as I read the appalling call by Yang Rui, host of CCTV 9′s popular show Dialogue, calling in violent language for the ouster of “foreign thugs” from China’s sacred soil. This was brought on by two disgusting incidents of foreigners acting like idiots, even rapists, one attempting to molest a Chinese woman, another treating a Chinese woman on a train like scum. Shameful. Sickening. As vile as a crime can be. But these two sorry incidents are being used as red meat by the likes of Yang to rally the masses and breed hatred of all foreigners, even if Yang doesn’t say that in so many words. In his words:

The Public Security Bureau wants to clean out the foreign trash: To arrest foreign thugs and protect innocent girls, they need to concentrate on the disaster zones in [student district] Wudaokou and [drinking district] Sanlitun. Cut off the foreign snake heads. People who can’t find jobs in the U.S. and Europe come to China to grab our money, engage in human trafficking and spread deceitful lies to encourage emigration. Foreign spies seek out Chinese girls to mask their espionage and pretend to be tourists while compiling maps and GPS data for Japan, Korea and the West. We kicked out that foreign bitch and closed Al-Jazeera’s Beijing bureau. We should shut up those who demonize China and send them packing.”

[Note: I am having serious problems with the GFW and my VPN is making it hellish for me to supply links. This is from the Shanghaiist.]

Just last week friends began warning me to carry my passport at all times, as the PSB was stopping foreigners randomly, especially around Western hangouts like Sanlitun, to make sure they hadn’t overstayed their visa. Papers please. This all smells like a concerted campaign.

China Geeks has some excellent analysis and translations of weibo users’ reactions to this nonsense, and makes a strong argument that all foreigners should boycott Dialogue. I have at least four friends who have appeared on the program, and I really think they need to reconsider. After you read Charlie’s post you’ll have to agree. [Again, sorry but I can't link.]

An interesting moment to be in China. Something seems to be in the air, an extreme edginess brought on by doubts about the government and concern for China’s future. I’ve never heard so many Chinese people tell me they oppose their government, even hate it. Obviously that’s not scientific, but my expat friends agree. China almost seems on the brink, unable to control its dialogue (no pun intended) and floundering in the wake of recent embarrassments we all know about. Rifts and fissures are becoming more apparent, and there’s a sense that “something’s got to give.” Will it?

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 152 Comments

“Although comparisons with Nazis are used too frequently and can induce groans…”

But absolutely necessary, Richard, because all the ingredients are there and it’s not impossible that China takes this path. Unlikely, but not impossible. Yang Rui will clearly be up for the Goebbels role.

May 19, 2012 @ 12:56 pm | Comment

I am glad Chinese high level officials don’t allow their families to reside, do banking, study or own property and cars in the West. That would be akin to treason and selling out to Western propaganda and being pawns of the CIA, KGB, CNN, BBC, GLBT and BBW!

Only the most wen ming and cultured Chinese comrades on fiscally austere budgets should travel out of China on fact finding missions to see how depraved the West is and share with the people why exactly those loser Westerners need to come as plants of Western intelligence agencies to sabotage great China!

May 19, 2012 @ 2:42 pm | Comment

Maybe I am an optimist…but I think there are too many Chinese people who remember the excesses of the Mao days, the use and the misuse of propaganda, and who want the Chinese government to follow its own stated rules. I loved this comment from a Chinese rights lawyer in the wake of the Chen Guangcheng situation: “The ordinary Chinese people need a country that is ruled by law, and not some unprincipled ‘harmonious society’.” I don’t think they are fooled by this kind of propaganda.

The difficulty, as with the US at this point, is disentangling the ruling class, not just from positions of power, but from their control of wealth.

May 19, 2012 @ 3:27 pm | Comment

Not all foreigners are devils and not all devils are foreign

May 19, 2012 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

O/T

Chen Guangcheng is at Beijing Airport waiting for a flight to Newark with his wife and kids.

May 19, 2012 @ 5:15 pm | Comment

Yang Rui used to position himself as a liberal in person – once discussed with me how he balanced self censorship with envelope-pushing on dialogue, and people I respect told me that was for real. I wonder what happened to him? Or whether it was just a con. As ChinaGeeks said, I wondered if he was being sarcastic when I first read about this, but clearly not.

May 19, 2012 @ 5:49 pm | Comment

My impression is that older Chinese people are more skeptical of the stereotyping than the younger – even if the younger have more frequent contacts with foreigners. It’s not that the elderly necessarily like foreigners better, but it’s more a matter of temperament and experience – just my impression and guesswork.

Another aspect would be that older people never placed as many hopes in Western ideals than the younger – i. e. ppl in their late 30s or early 40s. To oversimplify things, “love has turned to hate”. It’s not that they wouldn’t have a good and instructive chat with foreigners, but many will blanketly condemn “the foreigners”, even when talking with foreigners. People who love Japan for its technologies or achievements and hate it for the past or for its policies can do that.

I don’t think Yang Rui should be likened to Julius Streicher. Yang may be worse than some American talkmasters and certain angry-citizen movements in Europe, but that would be that. I’m not groaning at Nazi comparisons, but I believe that it’s too handy a measure to make a lot of sense.

May 19, 2012 @ 6:32 pm | Comment

“Western” ideals should have come with quotation marks – but I guess that after my daily voluntary brainwash – translating a speech by Zhou Yongkang a few minutes ago -, this lapse may be forgivable.

May 19, 2012 @ 6:35 pm | Comment

Well, I hope there was a tone of sarcasm in his voice, because as. Said to you today Richard, he has just successfully alienated a large portion of his target audience.

Either that or her is WELL AWARE that pretty much NOBODY watches CCTV 9 as it is purely a JOKE CHANNEL for Chinese High School students learning English.

Seriously, has anyone ever actually tried watching the channel for more than say, ten minutes? I tried it once, next thing I remember I was in the ICU: apparently my brain had begun voluntarily starving itself of oxygen.

May 19, 2012 @ 6:50 pm | Comment

I’ve never watched it at all. Might as well ask the Chinese embassy to send me “information material”.

May 19, 2012 @ 6:52 pm | Comment

I used to watch CCTV9 every so often during my first few years in China. Frankly, it is no surprise to me that Yang Rui feels like this – ‘Dialogue’, at least during the years in which I saw it, was nothing but an outlet for government propaganda, with ‘discussions’ usually taking the form of a North Korean, a Japanese communist or whoever debating ‘motherland reunification’ with some other CCP puppet. If the government wishes to foreigner-bash as a way of distracting the public for a while, expect their dogs to be on-message.

May 19, 2012 @ 7:26 pm | Comment

JR, I actually agree with you — the Nazi metaphor is too strong. But the language did remind me of the racial stereotyping of Der Stuermer, even if it wasn’t nearly as malicious and lethal.

James Fallows put up an excellent post about this topic today as well, and he agrees that foreigners need to boycott Dialogue. What’s Yang Rui going to do? Has he shot himself seriously in the foot?

May 19, 2012 @ 11:31 pm | Comment

I’m sure Daniel Bell, Shaun Rein, and that ilk will have no qualms about appearing on his show. Another win for China “soft power”.

May 20, 2012 @ 12:13 am | Comment

By the way I have a few questions about this Facebook IPO, can t_co help me with them:

1) Before facebook stock started trading, facebook already sold all the shares to willing investors. Facebook already raised the money it wanted at that point.

Once it starts trading, those investors can sell the stocks to the public. The number of shares outstanding does not change until Facebook issues more stocks in the future Right?

2) Then why is Facebook’s market cap larger than the money raised? Aren’t they both price of stock * number of shares?

3) Those investors hope the price will rise once it starts trading, so they can sell some of them and make profit, right?

4) How does Facebook employees or mark zuckerberg directly profit from this? They got some shares like 5 years go, and today can sell them in the market. And it’s 100% profit, cause their shares were ‘given’ at 0 price?

5) What do the underwriters (morgan stanley) do and how do they profit from this?

May 20, 2012 @ 12:27 am | Comment

I’ve followed some Chinese foreign radio services for a while – my impression from the programs is that no Western station would keep CRI’s German service going, for example. Listener reactions seem so suggest that there is some kind of “early Christians” congregation who truly like the programs. But in fact, Beijing may want exactly that kind of audience, and chit-chat about inanities with them.

I seem to know a handful of Germans who would actually support Yang Rui’s statement – they uncritically worship the country, and any aspect, even if obviously evil, that may emerge in the public attention, in their views, must have come into existence for good and justifiable reasons.

I think that’s the nature of the political system. It can’t heal itself. It can only live with itself.

May 20, 2012 @ 12:33 am | Comment

What I mean to say is that an “official” boycott won’t make much sense. Yang Rui, in my view, hasn’t shot himself in the foot. He wasn’t that spontaneous, and he might actually welcome a boycott.

May 20, 2012 @ 12:35 am | Comment

Another good read as always. Nazism is also the first and only thing came into my mind after reading Yang’s comments.

I told the story of Yang’s xenophobic comments to my Granddad, who joint the CCP at the age of 13 and had been a hard-line party member ever since. He said Yang’s comment disqualifies him from any serious discussion. Then I told the story to my mum, also a member of CCP. She thought it wrong to attach a race tag to rapist and Yang should be denounced for inciting hatred.

So, Yang may present the ruling class, but really not the people, not my family for the least.

May 20, 2012 @ 4:22 am | Comment

I say go on the show but keep repeating his crap.

“You’ve asked me for my opinion on X. I’m afraid as a foreign piece of trash I don’t think I’m qualified to say anything.”

May 20, 2012 @ 7:55 am | Comment

An interesting moment to be in China. Something seems to be in the air, an extreme edginess brought on by doubts about the government and concern for China’s future.

I’d watch for the period of time immediately following the 18th Congresses. The domestic security forces are likely to have personnel reshufflings, and bringing less experienced cadres into upper management there could result in a downtick in the Party’s instability adjustment mechanisms.

May 20, 2012 @ 8:55 am | Comment

By the by, here is Mr Yang’s email, from his CCTV profile:

yrcctv@sina.com

May 20, 2012 @ 10:13 am | Comment

Having resided in some western countries for many years, I think it is perfectly ok for the white people to have a taste of their own medicine in China. At least Chinese are more cultured & will not organise into skin-heads or those kind of hate gangs to roam around singling out coloured people to hurl abuses for no apparent reasons. Richard, I can quite appreciate how you guys here feel. May be time to appreciate how Chinese feel on your turf for a change.

May 20, 2012 @ 11:20 am | Comment

“I’ve never heard so many Chinese people tell me they oppose their government, even hate it.” I thought that scenario describes more about the US or Euro Zone than China. Ever heard the PEW survey? More Chinese seem to have a positive view of their government than most western nations. Ya, Chinese hate the CCP alright, but that is as far as why it does not rein in corruption & remedying the social distortions fast enough. There is no quarrel with the CCP for the direction the nation is heading. We might hate it but at the end of the day, WTF, may be others may be even worse-this type of mentality. In fact Chinese hate the CCP for being too considerate for the feelings on others-should have “banged” the Philippines, Vietnam, S Korea, Japan much sooner, like what the Russians did to Georgia.

“Rifts and fissures are becoming more apparent, and there’s a sense that “something’s got to give.” Will it?” May be you guys are drunk by your own western media propaganda more than anything else? It is jolly good enjoying yourselves among the groups with the same political leanings. It is, however, not real, too much removed form reality. Try reading some of Chinese sites in Chinese for a good balance.

Hear our side of the story, mates!

May 20, 2012 @ 11:43 am | Comment

Of course the hope would be that the little darling children of the “elite” would return and apply some of what they learn to the China they “love dearly” but we all know they already have their pre-ordained successful businesses to start/take over, live in gated communities and drive around in white plated “jun pai” cars honking away at peasants.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-communist-leaders-denounce-us-values-but-send-children-to-us-colleges/2012/05/18/gIQAiEidZU_story.html

May 20, 2012 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

He said Yang’s comment disqualifies him from any serious discussion.

That’s pretty much why I don’t think an organized boycott would make sense. If people want entertainment bizarre, let them watch Yang’s programs. If they want information, they’d better look for something else. People who don’t want to watch, won’t tune in to Yang’s programs anyway.

And I think the older people are, the less they are inclined to agree with Yang. In fact, I don’t think there are any people who respect him anyway – because those who do agree with his lines probably don’t know that concept.

May 20, 2012 @ 1:38 pm | Comment

Yang’s comments remind of a few similar instances when ‘liberal/enlightened’ Chinese have let the mask slip about their real feelings towards foreigners. At one office party I ended up on the same table as a group of junior managers who had either received some of their education in the west or who had visited or worked briefly in the west. After a couple of glasses of XO or whatever they were drinking, the friendly and slightly formal chat started to take on a more leery and accusatory tone. I started being questioned about how long I was going to remain in China, whether I had yet found a ‘pretty’ Chinese girl. And a couple of more glasses the xenophobia really started to pour out – especially when we switched to putonghua. It was classic resentment and conspiracy stuff – ‘you only come here to take our jobs/our women .. you get preferential treatment … you couldn’t get a job back home … and yet you come here with your airs and graces, stirring up trouble, breaking the law … foreigners just want to put China down and act like lords over us. It was actually quite scary to see how apparently educated Chinese could hold such xenophobic views and believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories. There was also a big pre-occupation with race – not just Chinese vs white, but right across the spectrum. Every region and ethnicity (Arabic, African, Asian American etc) was ascribed certain traits. I came away with the impression that many apparently urbane Chinese have a massive inferiority complex and are inwardly seething with resentment towards foreigners. And interestingly the level of xenophobia seem to be higher among the middle class educated Chinese – your working class Chinese tended to be much more sensible and open minded!

May 20, 2012 @ 5:22 pm | Comment

@ Mick: I hear ya! Kind of like Arizona Republican officials continually pressing the Obama birth certificate thing!!!

May 20, 2012 @ 5:28 pm | Comment

This post has drawn an unusual number of trolls. Please note, if your comments are snide, nasty or hateful they’re not going to appear.

Overseas Chinese: “Ever heard the PEW survey?”

Good grief. Nice to know where you’re coming from. Yes, the Chinese are happy, happy, happy.

May 20, 2012 @ 5:33 pm | Comment

@ Richard

It really shouldn’t surprise that a topic as intrinsically related to nationalism as this should draw xenophobes and such; indeed, if you are right and things are indeed becoming more tense in the PRC, it is expected we will see such rhetoric from people. When individuals become concerned about their future they inherently seek to form platitudes and attack others.

Indeed, when one lacks certitude in their own life, it becomes so much easier to disconnect oneself from the reality around them and criticize the faults of others (perceived or otherwise); basic psychological defensive mechanisms of denial and projection, effectively.

May 20, 2012 @ 9:16 pm | Comment

@narweasels – I sent an email asking that Yang Rui apologise to Melissa Chan to that email address, but it cam up invalid.

@Richard – I definitely support Charlie Custer’s Weibo campaign to get Yang Rui fired, but I don’t think it’s going to achieve it’s desired result – if CCTV haven’t fired him already, they never will. Having crossed swords with a few thin-skinned psychopathic narcissists in the past (hi CDE), I sure hope Charlie comes out of this alright – people like that are willing to tell any lie in an effort to destroy the reputations of a just critic. I see Yang Rui’s already pointedly pointing out that Charlie is an American, and has called him trash amongst other things. Not good.

May 20, 2012 @ 10:01 pm | Comment

I definitely do not support any campaign to get Yang Rui fired – it’s not my business. I see a lot of things in China that warrant “interference”, but this isn’t one of them.

Besides, I can remember the contempt I felt in 2008, for Chinese protesters in Germany who accused German media of “muzzling their voices”. I had known that there were such feelings among them, but parading them on big city squares here while somewhere, umm, else, voices were indeed being muzzled left the impression on me that a new quality of indulgence had been reached.

I don’t know Custer’s campaign, and I’m not suggesting that it is similar to the one I remember, but I believe it won’t just fail – it is also counter-productive. Especially if it should succeed.

What’s next? Demanding the sacking of nationalist writers at Huanqiu Shibao?

May 21, 2012 @ 2:13 am | Comment

I agree with JR. I don’t think his statement reflects especially non-mainstream thinking in China at this time,* and any firing would basically just be throwing people a bone. A growing section of the Chinese public seems to be aware that that stereotyping people is Not Cool, but please remember that this is a country where language that would be considered offensive or at least insensitive or biased elsewhere is pervasive, and absolutely blood-curdling statements about other countries are far from rare. You can’t ask China to be what it currently isn’t: that is, a place where many people have enough experience with foreigners to deal with them on a case-by-case basis instead of based on conclusions drawn from one or two personal contacts or long-standing stereotypes.

*Although I imagine that many of the people who would defend this saying “he’s only talking about people breaking the law, do you have a problem with that?” would go ballistic if a western media figure advocated “getting rid of Chinese trash.”

May 21, 2012 @ 5:03 am | Comment

@FOARP

That’s strange, it’s on his profile. Let’s see if we can’t dig for another means of contact.

I left a comment on the dialogue contact page:

“I was appalled by the comments made about foreigners by your host, Mr Yang. I would like Mr Yang to make a public apology. His remarks could stir up hatred against foreigners. He is in an influential position and should consider his words more carefully. ”

Here’s the link:

http://www.cctv.com/english/special/poll/06/12/index.shtml

May the flooding begin.

May 21, 2012 @ 8:36 am | Comment

Yang Rui was peddling this stuff in 2000 but in a sort of high culture way, plus a good dose of Sino Truimphalism.

People who can’t find jobs in the U.S. and Europe come to China to grab our money, engage in human trafficking and spread deceitful lies to encourage emigration. Foreign spies seek out Chinese girls to mask their espionage and pretend to be tourists while compiling maps and GPS data for Japan, Korea and the West.

This is priceless, if tres downmarket. He must have rabies to produce such unhinged nonsense, but it will strike an urban chord as noted by Mick above.

As for getting him fired. An aspiration in your dreams, since there must have been a degree of official cognisance.

May 21, 2012 @ 8:42 am | Comment

Well, it doesn’t help that the various translators have had to attempt to smooth out the post by kind of guessing at implied/bridging words due to the sloppy message resulting from the Weibo length limit, Yang posting from an iPhone, and the inherent quirks of the Chinese language (such the always wonderful sentences with fifteen commas where the connections between ideas are not always clear). But it’s pretty bad no matter how you slice it.

May 21, 2012 @ 9:13 am | Comment

CCTV host may sue over xenophobia claim:

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-05/21/content_25429571.htm

May 21, 2012 @ 10:41 am | Comment

LOL, Yang is complaining that Custer damaged his reputation? Why are buffoons like Yang so incapable of owning it? All that was required to damage his reputation were his own words.

Before Overseas Chinese draws wood over the Pew survey, he/she should really look over the survey methodology, and then we’ll talk. Folks like that are so keen to run with the top line results that they fail to realize, such as in Pew’s case, how little those results mean.

May 21, 2012 @ 11:01 am | Comment

He is in an influential position and should consider his words more carefully.

narsfweasels, this reads to me like “I want to be lied to more efficiently.”

May 21, 2012 @ 11:28 am | Comment

@justrecently

You have to be polite in these circumstances. It’s something adults learn. Speaking your mind “I think Yang Rui is having trouble getting it up so he is taking it out on foreigners” doesn’t quite fit the bill. Shame.

May 21, 2012 @ 12:06 pm | Comment

There are a plethora of entries on the Chinese Internet casting
aspersions upon foreigners in China.

Search: 外国人玩女人

For example, this blog entry linked to below says that with a few very
limited exceptions almost all foreigners are in China only to (1)
“make easy money”; and (2) chase Chinese girls.

http://blog.renren.com/share/235268090/1418043983

Be careful: They tend to take pictures or videos of foreigners and
publish them on the Internet.

May 21, 2012 @ 1:54 pm | Comment

There are lots of photographs of foreign men with Chinese women on the
Chinese internet. I never paid much attention to this sort of thing
until now, but that may have been a big mistake? The comments in
Chinese below the photos are very negative and creepy….

http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=201326592&cl=2&lm=-1&nc=1&tn=baiduimage&fr=ala0&pv=&word=%CD%E2%B9%FA%C8%CB%C9%CF%D6%D0%B9%FA%C5%AE&istype=2&z=0&fm=rs1

May 21, 2012 @ 2:30 pm | Comment

That’s not the point I’m trying to make, narsfweasels. Why do you want Yang Rui to apologize? It sounds as if you don’t want to believe that he meant what he said.

Which, btw, isn’t impossible. Nobody can tell Yang’s motivation for sure. But whatever he would do or say next, in response to the indignation he aroused, it wouldn’t amount to a convincing clarification, or explanation.

Btw, I think we may have gotten a few clues concerning the questions about al-Jazeera’s correspondent – the questions a foreign ministry spokesman declined to answer. Personally, I’m thinking of this as a semi-official answer.

May 21, 2012 @ 3:28 pm | Comment

There are now calls to get tough with foreigners in China. Euphemistically phrased as “ending preferential treatment” for foreigners.

http://www.360doc.com/content/12/0520/18/943329_212351401.shtml

May 21, 2012 @ 3:46 pm | Comment

I think Rectified Name gets it about right that this is not surprising nor an isolated case.

Yang Rui has been a problematic presence for a long time, even in a country where media integrity and professionalism are exceedingly scarce.

Honestly, it would more astonishing if Yang said something insightful, intelligent and uplifting.

May 21, 2012 @ 9:43 pm | Comment

To the troll who keeps spamming my comments using about 10 different aliases, but only one IP address, please note:

1. You aren’t allowed to use multiple avatars

2. I never said “the Chinese are like Nazis,” I said Yang Rui’s fatwah with words like “foreign trash” sounded similar to the Nazi stereotyping of Jews

3. You last incredibly obscene comments belie your claims you want to engage in serious conversation. So please go away. Nothing personal.

My God, if you guys could only see the flood of troll comments I am getting today.

Any readers who want to have a totally jaw-dropping experience need to go to that other blog and read the new post on James Fallows, who I had no idea was a racist xenophobic sociopath. All this time I thought he was among the most balanced, sane, respectful and open-minded journalists commenting on China. Live and learn.

May 21, 2012 @ 9:47 pm | Comment

Slim, I think it has to do with a shift in tone toward foreigners in the past couple of weeks, like the “show us your papers” warning. Yang Rui was the icing on the cake. Not that this attitude toward foreigners is particularly new, but the forthrightness with which it was expressed by those in power was unusual.

May 21, 2012 @ 9:54 pm | Comment

Finally, here is one of the best pieces of journalism yet on the downfall of Bo Xilai. This is Pulitzer material.

May 21, 2012 @ 10:01 pm | Comment

As soon as a good number of “foreigners” (read: white people) stop being arrogant and abusive toward their host nations you can expect to see the hatred naturally dissipate.

The difference between the Holocaust and Yang Rui (utterly laughable that I even have to point this out) is that the Jewish people (along with everyone else Hitler marked for extermination) did not have a history of racist abuse against the Germans. They didn’t try to contain or antagonize the German nation as part of a broader strategic objective. They didn’t have a history of raping and murdering German women. They didn’t commit race hate crimes against Germans in their own nation (which of course didn’t exist at the time).

Instead of acting the victim and whining about how you don’t think you’re being treated fairly, instead remember that the overwhelming majority of Chinese people are excessively kind to “foreigners” and the reverse is absolutely not true. Then think long on why “foreigners” are not trusted or even hated all over the world – from the Middle East (rape and murder of reporters, tourists), to India (burning of effigies, mass protests against Western culture), to Africa (farm murders) to South America (race based class conflict).

May 21, 2012 @ 10:04 pm | Comment

Cookie, read what I said more carefully: ” Let me add, however, that while most gullible Germans ate this up, I strongly believe most Chinese are going to reject the race baiting that is setting the Internets ablaze today.”

I never made a comparison with the Holocaust. I said Yang’s stereotyping of foreigners reminded me of Nazi tactics to lump Jews in a single box, as leering perverted hooked-nosed fiends. And I said I believe the Chinese people reject this! (I also said in a comment above that my Nazi comparison was a little too harsh, made in the heat of the moment.)

I am soooo surprised that you turned the conversation around to how bad Westerners are.

remember that the overwhelming majority of Chinese people are excessively kind to “foreigners” and the reverse is absolutely not true.

Many certainly are, and I love them for their kindness. Deeply. But many, even good friends of mine, can be easily manipulated with propaganda about Opium Wars, the Summer Palace, and other reminders of imperialism and subjugation. In other words, along with the kindness, there often lurks some anger, carefully cultivated, even among those who truly do go out of their way to be kind. I’ve seen it in people I’ve dealt with in my office, gracious and delightful, who can switch like a light when their buttons are pushed and they are reminded of what Westerners did to China (even if it was over a hundred years ago).

May 21, 2012 @ 10:13 pm | Comment

Richard
I said Yang’s stereotyping of foreigners reminded me of Nazi tactics to lump Jews in a single box, as leering perverted hooked-nosed fiends.

They’re absolutely not similar. Nazi propaganda is several orders of magnitude more offensive. Yang’s stereotyping of foreigners is like the stereotyping of foreigners everywhere, except in this case it’s even more fringe and based in reality. In that case are you saying people who advocate building a wall between the US and Mexico are like Goebbels?

can be easily manipulated with propaganda about Opium Wars, the Summer Palace, and other reminders of imperialism and subjugation

Can be manipulated with propaganda? Do you realize that Chinese people raised outside of the PRC are also “manipulated” by history? That is, they understand its meaning in context. Look at the Opium Wars then and the West’s shadow banking and illegal wars now. Many individual Westerners are decent people, but a lot of things don’t change.

In other words, along with the kindness, there often lurks some anger, carefully cultivated, even among those who truly do go out of their way to be kind.

Oh please, you think anger towards foreigners has to be “carefully cultivated”? Need I remind you that China, of all nations I can think of, is responsible for the absolute least violence against foreigners? Even in Japan and Korea, so-called American allies, you’ll see similar attitudes and far more vocal protests.

I’ve seen it in people I’ve dealt with in my office, gracious and delightful, who can switch like a light when their buttons are pushed and they are reminded of what Westerners did to China

Maybe it’s because of what Westerners did to China, or maybe their resentment comes from the fact that you think they’re stupid sheep who swallow everything the government tells them prima facie. Maybe they don’t like how you not-so-subtly imply that they’re brainwashed stooges incapable of independent thought.

Perhaps they’re annoyed by a pervasive attitude among Westerners that any kind of anti-foreign (read: Western) sentiment can ONLY be the result of lies and slander against “your people”, and not the natural consequences of your bad behavior.

(even if it was over a hundred years ago).

Selling arms to Taiwan, encouraging separatism in Tibet is over 100 years ago? The CIA air-dropping paratroopers into Tibet was over a hundred years ago? America’s threats to use nuclear weapons on China pre-emptively was 100 years ago?

“Chinese professor” and “Debbie-spend-it-now” were 100 years ago? Vincent Chin was 100 years ago?

The West is simply out of touch with the interests and concerns of non-Westerners. Entitlement and insularity will do that.

May 21, 2012 @ 10:34 pm | Comment

Richard, I think you have too much faith in the effect of words or logical points on certain people. You might as well just insert a link showing to your previous statement, in reply to imputations like those. People who read this post & thread and believe that you equated the holocaust and Yang are hopeless.

To choose blogging certainly comes from a belief in the use of discussions, but you can’t walk every extra mile any person may demand, unless you want to get out of breath.

Btw, I don’t find that HH blogpost of May 20 jaw-dropping. It’s very globaltimes, pretty much as usual, only more like a blogger’s rant, i. e. more personal. I had read there more regularly soon after they started, but both the posts and threads keep going in circles. Supposed news, “Chinese” indignation, approving comments adding to the message, a bit of opposition, a big “quash” of the latter, happy end, next post.

Basically, I don’t think HH has a lot to do with China. It has a lot to do with very individual issues, i. e. the bloggers’ issues. Which would be perfectly fine if it was a personal blog. The way things are, I think they either never defined their own mission, or lost it.

May 21, 2012 @ 10:46 pm | Comment

N. B.: imputations like those:
http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/05/foreign-devils/comment-page-1/#comment-174298

May 21, 2012 @ 10:47 pm | Comment

JR, the jaw-dropping part was the insane attack on Fallows, the most down-to-earth pundit on the planet. Otherwise agree, the sentiment is nothing new.

Cookie, I’m not going to spar. it’s late here in Beijing. All I can say is your comment is business as usual. Now just throw in something about all the millions the US has killed in Iraq, not to mention the American Indians, and we’ll be complete.

May 21, 2012 @ 10:53 pm | Comment

The Party line of national exceptionalism about how China was supposedly unique in being victimized by foreigners has been drilled into PRC youngsters for over six decades. Although there is a similarly irrational mystique of national exceptionalism in the US, at least American schoolchildren have not been indoctrinated into an aggrieved hatred of the British for having put the White House and various other buildings in D.C. to the torch during the War of 1812. Orwell described how despotic regimes must conjure forth an insidious enemy and drum up hatred among the populace against that enemy as a way of distracting the populace from the regime’s own domestic shortcomings and neglect of public welfare.

May 21, 2012 @ 10:58 pm | Comment

Phil
The Party line of national exceptionalism about how China was supposedly unique in being victimized by foreigners has been drilled into PRC youngsters for over six decades.

Pretty writing, but you’re dead wrong. China regularly brings up aggression by foreigners against third states, most notably India and almost all parts of Africa. Please limit exceptionalism to its proper usage, in describing Western foreign policies and attitudes.

Orwell described how despotic regimes must conjure forth an insidious enemy and drum up hatred among the populace against that enemy

Think quick – War on Drugs, War or Terrorism, Islamofascism, Red Scare, McCarthyism

Who has the most imaginary enemies? Don’t equate American boogeymen to plain assessments of fact.

It’s amazing how people can be so utterly irrational, project their attitudes blatantly, and be so confused as to why others dislike them.

For the record, JR, I’m done flaming people for their stupidity so you don’t have to cower in fear every time I post some peskily factual or logical argument against the established anti-Chinese bias that passes for discussion on this board.

I used to think you and your friends were being malicious when you made incoherent arguments and regurgitated Western propaganda without thinking, but now I know a lot of it has to do with ego and ignorance.

Richard, I’m glad that you have moderated many of your previously insane standpoints to far less unreasonable ones (as you have readily admitted on Tibet and your view of the CCP in general since coming to China).

Hopefully more personal experience will help you with your lifetime of brainwashing.

May 21, 2012 @ 11:12 pm | Comment

“I’m done flaming people for their stupidity so you don’t have to cower in fear every time I post some peskily factual or logical argument against the established anti-Chinese bias that passes for discussion on this board.”

The most you have EVER achieved here is a weak tu quoque argument now and then — relatively logical by normal fenqing/wumao/nationalist standards but still in the realm of fallacy.

May 21, 2012 @ 11:51 pm | Comment

slim
The most you have EVER achieved here is a weak tu quoque argument now and then — relatively logical by normal fenqing/wumao/nationalist standards but still in the realm of fallacy.

Projection. The only thing you have ever brought to the table, aside from your ignorance, is ad hominems and stale banter.

There is no doubt that I have contributed the most in terms of facts and sources. Whether you have the desire or commitment to read them is not up to me.

May 22, 2012 @ 12:03 am | Comment

@ Phil,

“The Party line of national exceptionalism about how China was supposedly unique in being victimized by foreigners has been drilled into PRC youngsters for over six decades.”

I guess you did not imply that it is nonsense to teach our kid history?
Chinese youngsters are getting bad at school as USA youngster. You can search “wumao dang”, or “han jian” or “wu mei fen” to look at the diversity of current mentality of Chinese Youngsters.

For overseas Chinese, they learned a lot about the western people and their schooling, the different Church, and wars going on in other countries conducted by western. You know, the guilty you avoid to feel. Isn’t possible that history can repeat itself?

Although there is a similarly irrational mystique of national exceptionalism in the US, at least American schoolchildren have not been indoctrinated into an aggrieved hatred of the British for having put the White House and various other buildings in D.C. to the torch during the War of 1812. Orwell described how despotic regimes must conjure forth an insidious enemy and drum up hatred among the populace against that enemy as a way of distracting the populace from the regime’s own domestic shortcomings and neglect of public welfare.

Simple, British or other western country are together to put a very friendly face towards China now.

May 22, 2012 @ 12:05 am | Comment

Perhaps some of the users posting here would consider entering the Hidden Harmonies essay contest? I see some similarities in stance and rhetoric.

‘Every society has a set of values around which it builds its culture. The West likes to think its most important value is freedom. What do think are the most important Chinese values, and how do you think they might be better than those in the West?’

You could win an ipad 3.

May 22, 2012 @ 12:15 am | Comment

Maybe what is going on is a more of a reaction to the Chen affair? Chinese officials were railing against foreign interference and the arrogance and condecension directed at China – then this piece purpoting to prove those same claims. The Obama admisistrations’s handling of the whole Chen deal was somewhat clumsy and may have needlessly irritated Chinese officials.

May 22, 2012 @ 12:57 am | Comment

Goju, I believe the Obama administration actually handled the Chen incident quite well, with diplomacy winning out in the end.

To my trolls whose comments aren’t going to show up, I just want to repeat, I never said the Chinese people are Nazis. In fact, I tried to say the opposite: “Let me add, however, that while most gullible Germans ate this up, I strongly believe most Chinese are going to reject the race baiting that is setting the Internets ablaze today.” Is that so hard to grasp?

May 22, 2012 @ 1:16 am | Comment

By the way I have a few questions about this Facebook IPO, can t_co help me with them:

1) Before facebook stock started trading, facebook already sold all the shares to willing investors. Facebook already raised the money it wanted at that point.

Once it starts trading, those investors can sell the stocks to the public. The number of shares outstanding does not change until Facebook issues more stocks in the future Right?

2) Then why is Facebook’s market cap larger than the money raised? Aren’t they both price of stock * number of shares?

3) Those investors hope the price will rise once it starts trading, so they can sell some of them and make profit, right?

4) How does Facebook employees or mark zuckerberg directly profit from this? They got some shares like 5 years go, and today can sell them in the market. And it’s 100% profit, cause their shares were ‘given’ at 0 price?

5) What do the underwriters (morgan stanley) do and how do they profit from this?

May 22, 2012 @ 2:30 am | Comment

Cookie Monster

‘Projection. The only thing you have ever brought to the table, aside from your ignorance, is ad hominems and stale banter.’

Isn’t that an example of an ad hominem?

May 22, 2012 @ 2:47 am | Comment

Cookie Monster

You could sooo win an ipod 3.

May 22, 2012 @ 2:48 am | Comment

Of course, the slant is a bit different in one or two of the media outlets in some western countries
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/21/chinese-tv-star-tirade-against-foreign-trash

May 22, 2012 @ 6:06 am | Comment

And more http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/they-come-here-chinese-tv-host-rails-against-foreign-trash-7769705.html
Check out the link in the comments – Pugster is there too ;-)

May 22, 2012 @ 6:18 am | Comment

“Why do you want Yang Rui to apologize?”

Because I want him to lose face. Because I want him humiliated for the comments. He can feel them, think them and say them, but when he does, he should be forced into the public indignity of issuing a retraction and full public apology.

How often do Chinese people apologise for their wrongdoings? Not often enough. Even when thjey cut in line and I remind them that there’s a queue, the look is always “How DARE YOU call ME out for being RUDE?!”. The face goes red, the embarassment is obvious. An apology is the icing on the cake.

I want Yang Rui to admit he was wrong, not because he feels he is wrong, but because it will completely and totally make him lose face publicly.

May 22, 2012 @ 8:30 am | Comment

It looks like Yang Rui has scored another victory in China’s soft-power campaign to project a cultured, sophisticated and modern face to the rest of the world. This can only inspire greater respect for China.

The other comments, suggesting that rabble-rousing of this nature is somehow appropriate “payback” for the Opium Wars, or China’s geopolitical problems, are also contributing.

May 22, 2012 @ 8:51 am | Comment

+1 internets for Peter.

May 22, 2012 @ 10:59 am | Comment

To Peter,
that sounds about right.

Couldn’t tell Yang Rui from a hole in the ground, and based on this episode he doesn’t have a lot going on between the ears. If he’s the supposed face of Chinese soft power, then the talent cupboard for such a task is pretty bare. There’s no problem with deriding foreign visitors who behave badly in the host country, or with condemning those who remain in the host country illegally (although those two complaints, while both completely legitimate on their own, have no causal relationship with one another), but to characterize all foreigners based on a sampling of a few is the typical purview of the ill-informed and uneducated. To further pre-judge based on race/skin colour is very much the work of a racist. I recall a discussion a while back where some of the usual suspects tried to suggest that Chinese people aren’t capable of racism. That suggestion was laughable then, but certainly moreso now.

I think JR sums up HH well in #50. It represents the view-point of a bunch of Chinese-Americans with some serious issues. As usual, it’s caveat emptor. If you’re going to go there, be prepared for what roams free there. I have no particular use for the views of a bunch of disenchanted Chinese-Americans, which is why I don’t bother. Although I do enjoy the snippets that people send me purely for comedic value.

May 22, 2012 @ 11:06 am | Comment

Peter nails it in just a couple of lines. JR gets HH, too. I go there for laughs, but will almost never comment, as it’s just too absurd and absurdly predictable.

Meanwhile, I am proud to announce that this post has generated more troll comments than any other in the history of this blog. Apparently the MITBBS, a message board popular with fenqing, has a post in Chinese about my post (can’t capture the link when I’m using my proxy, unfortunately) and the trolls came flooding in. I would have approved them if there wasn’t so much sockpuppeting and impolite rage. At least Cookie tries to make a coherent argument (well, sometimes), and HongXing seems to try sometimes. The MITBBS boys were bad news. Nearly 200 spam comments in 12 hours or so.

Comments like this:

fuck@pekingduck.org
152.14.211.128
This western rapist is not the first one, long time ago there were.
And when the Internet was not powerfull, there also were crime you western motherfucker done to Chinese people.

You can selectively believe what you believe, but the facts are there.
We remember all the time.

The same commenter sent more than 50 comments using different names. Too much time on their hands?

May 22, 2012 @ 11:25 am | Comment

Aaah, Chinese soft power. Al over the comments sections in every China story. Mind you, sometimes they come in at an oblique angle…this following comment was the first in an article about the Afghan opium crops

“Little Englanders were pretty good at the opium trafficking business ,weren’t they?

Remember the infamous Opium Wars in 19th century. They shipped opium from Afghanistan to China and made a huge profits and destroyed a nation for a century.

Is this a karma in making?”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9279920/How-did-we-allow-this-killer-trade-to-bloom.html

Check out Allen_Snyder and his seeming lack of any morality when it comes to defending the CCP in anything in the DT concerning China. My favourite of his is…
“The dispute over well is at the centre and it had been going on for many years already.

The said dispute runs into cul-de-sack quite a while back when Mr Chen had come to conclusion that the problem can only be solved by UN.

The above statements have no “ifs” no “buts”.

One child family policy comes in one package and there are unpleasant aspects if someone determines to put their “freedom” above the Chinese law.

If their law says sterilization is the only the result then sterilization it is.

All laws have to be enforced effectively and the laws are not there for you or me to agree or disagree.

The laws have no feelings and they are always correct.

Now Mr Chen is migrated to the USA as we speak, and he can lawfully have as many kids as he wants. Chinese will have no say whatsoever.”

I was especially impressed with his acceptance of forced sterilisation…

May 22, 2012 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

To Richard,
it never ceases to amaze me that Chinese people new to the English language may not yet be an expert overall (like the example you cited), but they’re all over it when it comes to the expletives. Very much in line with my personal observations.

And they wouldn’t be “angry youth” without the anger, I imagine.

To Mike,
interesting for that guy to suggest that CGC is going to the US in order to procreate like a rabbit.

I don’t mind his views on the law, generally speaking. The only problem with that POV applied to China is that China’s laws are the CCP’s laws, not those of Chinese people.

Besides, my understanding of the law is that sterilization is not the only result.

It’s also more than a little ironic and downright hilarious for him to suggest that all laws have to be enforced effectively, when he is speaking about China. But I guess when your job is to defend the CCP, logic by necessity goes out the window.

May 22, 2012 @ 1:32 pm | Comment

Let me get this straight…this whole storm in a tea cup, based on what I’ve seen, boils down to foreigners getting Chinese girls and Western girls not going for Chinese guys??

May 22, 2012 @ 3:19 pm | Comment

Hey, the Chinese Exclusion Act was the law. I guess it being law made it right and therefore permanently exempt from examination or abolition.

May 23, 2012 @ 1:12 am | Comment

Uh-oh, did I just offer up a glib US-China equivalency between two situations that aren’t really parallel? Am I becoming what I hate?

May 23, 2012 @ 1:14 am | Comment

Pity all the scholars of China’s “soft power” who after a few short months of 2012 have practically nothing to study. “Poof!”

May 23, 2012 @ 1:27 am | Comment

To MAC,
yeah, I’d stay away from the tit-for-tat comparisons. Stuff like that should be reserved for those other folks from whom we have come to expect such things.

The law is the law, but one is certainly not compelled to agree with it. They are certainly not always correct, unlike what the guy in Mike’s link erroneously suggests. And laws are not always “right”. So if the law is wrong, or if you disagree with it, you can work towards having it changed…except you can’t do that in China.

May 23, 2012 @ 2:19 am | Comment

Came across the following post on Hidden Harmonies. Has anyone else come across the video that it links to yet?

Ray
May 22nd, 2012 at 08:47 | #42

This is one of the event that provoked the rant from Yang Rui. The dramatized version is shown here.

http://big5.ifeng.com/gate/big5/v.ifeng.com/vblog/fun/201205/68021966-d63f-4c11-9a13-a07b23c432b5.shtml

May 23, 2012 @ 3:35 am | Comment

Am I becoming what I hate?

I think this is why I believe that campaigns against Yang Rui are wrong. It resembles similar fenqing Chinese reactions. Yang Rui is Yang Rui, CCTV-9 is CCTV-9, and the two fit together. They did so before Yang wrote his message, and they do now. You might as well protest against Chinese schoolbooks, against the CCP, dunno what else.

May 23, 2012 @ 4:07 am | Comment

“Yang Rui is Yang Rui, CCTV-9 is CCTV-9, and the two fit together.”

This has been my point all along. Yang was recognized as a total douchebag almost from day one of his show. And CCTV is one of the softest targets on earth: Nobody goes there for anything other than negative blogging fodder or for research on the obstacles to China’s developing soft power. A wise and sensible comment from him WOULD be truly surprising.

I’m guessing it is because Yang was so despised and so smug that his rant induced mass schadenfraude — a bit like when Sima Nan got his head stuck in an escalator at Dulles Airport, but more emotive given the topic and the times.

May 23, 2012 @ 5:08 am | Comment

I had no idea the Chinese hate foreigners so much, what will they do when the boycotts start?

May 23, 2012 @ 6:13 am | Comment

Maybe Yang Rui is just mouthing a popular meme at the moment. Seems to be a popular refrain in certain Chinese speaking areas…
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/NE23Ad01.html

May 23, 2012 @ 6:51 am | Comment

I saw this link on chinasmack and thought it worth reposting here. Interesting comments from the judge!

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/news/chinese-student-jailed-5-years-for-rape/

May 23, 2012 @ 10:11 am | Comment

Everyone needs to go to YouTube and search “China anti-foreign sentiment fanned by CCTV host Yang Rui” — my VPN encrypts links into digits so I can’t give a link. Go there now. It actually features Charlie Custer of China Geeks and his spat with Yang Rui. Quite hilarious.

May 23, 2012 @ 10:25 am | Comment

OMG. Priceless!

May 23, 2012 @ 3:46 pm | Comment

Richard, what’s going on?

I can’t seem to post anymore.

All I’ve posted is a few comments that were critical of Hidden Harmonies and a warning to Stu, who I thought might currnetly be trying to have a debate on HH.

I’ve used a different avatar and email, but nothing seems to work.

May 23, 2012 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

Is Yang Rui’s speech at Qinghua University this coming June 27th?

杨锐在6月27号晚上的清华大学讲座其实是一次非常成功的英语演讲, 因为它的主题很说明问题:“中国需要更强大的声音:China needs a stronger voice。”

May 23, 2012 @ 5:16 pm | Comment

Xilin, when you use a new avatar your comment goes directly into my moderation queue. That queue has been so jammed with spam emails from MITBBS the past two days that I deleted many of them en masse. I may have deleted your comment by mistake and I apologize for that. Can you repost? Sorry for the trouble.

May 23, 2012 @ 5:18 pm | Comment

Thanks for the rapid response.

May 23, 2012 @ 5:27 pm | Comment

Stu,

You might be the same Stu/Stu2/Stu3 that is trying to have a debate on HH.

If you are, I would advise checking the last post I made (59) on the ‘So they eat babies’ topic before I was banned.

Can you find anything in those posts that warrants banning?

May 23, 2012 @ 5:37 pm | Comment

I think this whole actual campaign has really amounted to nothing. I know there was a passport check at the Beijinger offices and I’ve heard of a few English schools being checked, but I live in the Sanlitun area and am at/around the bar area and the Village every night and I’ve yet to come across anything. I’ve not heard about apartment checks like took place during the Olympics. I’m guessing the police understand that outside of the English teachers, the vast majority of foreigners are legal and they aren’t targeting “white people” but much like the campaigns in Shenzhen and Guangzhou in recent years, they are targeting the Africans, who tend to be more likely to be here illegally.

I’m very active on weibo and I haven’t really seen the “race baiting” going on, I’m sure its there, but there are plenty of internet idiots and fenqing out there. It feels like the nationalist campaigns are being ratched up these days, Vietnam, the Philipines, even North Korea, and now foreigners all being attacked. If you look at Yang’s comments, he also seems to have spent a lot of time focusing on these issues in the South China Sea.

May 23, 2012 @ 6:28 pm | Comment

Xilin, I’m letting your comments through, but it is strange that you are using different aliases and different IP addresses, all with the same comment. Don’t be surprised if your comments continue to be delayed.

May 23, 2012 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

bcheng, good to hear it — it was the point of my post, that the Chinese wouldn’t be sucked in by Yang Rui’s race baiting. As for the “passport please” initiative, I, too, have heard that despite the warning the police aren’t actually enforcing it.

May 23, 2012 @ 6:50 pm | Comment

@ Hongxing

Interesting. Didn’t have you down for the finance type.

I haven’t read the Facebook prospectus yet, so my answers are going to be fairly general.

1) Before facebook stock started trading, facebook already sold all the shares to willing investors. Facebook already raised the money it wanted at that point. Once it starts trading, those investors can sell the stocks to the public. The number of shares outstanding does not change until Facebook issues more stocks in the future Right?
2) Then why is Facebook’s market cap larger than the money raised? Aren’t they both price of stock * number of shares?
3) Those investors hope the price will rise once it starts trading, so they can sell some of them and make profit, right?

Those pre-IPO investors invested at a lower valuation for Facebook than the IPO valuation. A fairly standard sweetener put in place by the underwriters to drum up interest in the company.

4) How does Facebook employees or mark zuckerberg directly profit from this? They got some shares like 5 years go, and today can sell them in the market. And it’s 100% profit, cause their shares were ‘given’ at 0 price?

A large portion of the compensation at a startup comes in the form of outright equity and stock options. This lets the company stretch the angel/VC cash it gets much further.

5) What do the underwriters (morgan stanley) do and how do they profit from this?

They usually earn a percent of an IPO. Paradoxically, given that Facebook is such a “coveted” IPO for big-league bankers to have under their belt, the percentage fees are probably much lower than would be for a hypothetical similarly-sized company that isn’t as famous.

There are other ways to make cash (or accumulate favors) off an IPO, but pinning down specifics on that would require a closer look at internal files from the FB underwriting process.

May 24, 2012 @ 2:54 am | Comment

Richard, thanks for the Youtube link. It was hilarious. Reminds me of the Apple Daily stuff.

May 24, 2012 @ 3:05 am | Comment

@slim:

If it’s like a previous well-known Hundred Flowers campaign, it might be a good time to stay away from China.

May 24, 2012 @ 5:27 am | Comment

Global Times has a couple of articles about foreigners and xenophobia. Comments are laughable ;-)

May 24, 2012 @ 9:10 am | Comment

Now that I think of it, stomping a white rapist’s head into the pavement would have been real soft power for 90% of the world’s population.

May 24, 2012 @ 9:44 am | Comment

Wow CM, lots of unresolved issues there. But I agree that the drunken Brit would have deserved charges at least, and jail time if the facts warranted it. On the other hand, not sure what the fuss is about with the rude Russian cellist.

May 24, 2012 @ 10:49 am | Comment

If I’m not mistaken, he has previously molested several girls at subway stations.

If he were a CCP official, everyone here (including myself) would be hoping for the absolute worst to happen to him.

But some kinds of people are a little more special than others.

May 24, 2012 @ 12:09 pm | Comment

I am taking off to the airport in a little while, away for 24 hours or so. If your comments get held for moderation please be patient. I had to tighten the screening process this past week.

May 24, 2012 @ 12:54 pm | Comment

To CM,
that Brit deserves whatever he has coming, legally speaking. All the more if he is a repeat offender. I don’t know any details about his previous transgressions, but why hasn’t he been charged up until now? As far as I know, being drunk is not a legally valid excuse to sexually assault somebody. And as you say, it makes no difference whether he’s a Brit tourist or a CHinese local. That also highlights the point. It’s not his race or nationality that makes him more or less deserving of punishment. His actions are what should determine his punishment. That’s a point that Yang Rui fails to grasp.

May 24, 2012 @ 2:16 pm | Comment

Interesting article discussing China’s push to end preferential treatment for foreigners in china.

http://culture.ifeng.com/1/detail_2012_05/23/14744809_0.shtml

May 24, 2012 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

Good evening.

I’m Yang Rui, the host and spokesperson for popular shows including Dialogue on CCTV9, CCTV 9′s Dialogue, and of course the perennial favourite: Yang Rui’s Dialogue – brought to you by CCTV9. When I’m not busy immersing myself within Gibbon’s seminal Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, or enjoying the oeuvre of 1930′s German Expressionist cinema, there’s nothing I enjoy more than searching the world wide web for stimulating debate. Although the main objective in my career is to act as a bridge between cultures, a road between nations, or a bone between dogs, it is also important for me to devote myself to studying the religious, economic, political and philosophical background that form the great civilisations of today. For it is truthfully observed by those great journalistic forebears that came before me, without these contemporary topics of relevance, all of my learning and study is naught when it comes to forming – if you would pardon the pun – a dialogue.

Dialogue is my cause, or as they say in Welsh, my raison d’etre. Other presenters of shallower and cheaper shows may be content to merely scratch the surface of current events and offer up cheap editorial conjuring tricks to titillate and insult the viewer, but I strive to delve deeper. Think of me, if you will, as a weaver of dialogue, a seamstress of debate, a builder of lego. During my conversations with some of East and West’s greatest minds, I reach out for a thread of Greco-Hellenic classicism, entwine it with Latin American economic theory, and decorate liberally with bouquets of Confucianism and my knowledge of ancient Mesopotamian mystery cults. Once I am done, the product of my labours is there for not only my viewers to enjoy, but also all future generations who share in the heritage of mankind: my basket of dialogue. It is only when I can stand back and observe the fruits of my hard work and watch as others learn from the joining of diverse hands that I can say who I truly am.

I’m Yang Rui.

Therefore, it saddens me when I read of accusations against my character. Like Hector lying on the battlefields of Troy, I lament these attacks against me, when I have worked so hard to do nothing more than bring people together.

“Alas! My doom has come upon me; let me not then die ingloriously and without a struggle, but let me first do some great thing that shall be told among men hereafter.”

The burden of truth lies heavy upon my shoulders, and all I do is offer those truths to my audience in the hope that it will enlighten. It saddens me when the droning torrent of monologue attempts to overcome the shining beacon of dialogue, and those simple truths which I humbly offer to my viewer are misinterpreted and cast aside. All I have ever wanted is dialogue: not just between men, but between all the nations of this God-given earth. Can’t we all just, you know, get along?

(Note to editor: Right, that’s 500 words. Send it to that fat American bitch in proofreading to tart up, and better do it in Japanese too in case the fucking Nips start firing up too. Send my cheque to the usual address.)

Yang Rui

May 24, 2012 @ 3:20 pm | Comment

Yang Rui wrote: “Can’t we all just, you know, get along?”

Question: Get a long “what”?

May 24, 2012 @ 5:09 pm | Comment

@CM – Is it possible to say absolutely and conclusively that the video in question shows a crime being committed?

Unless you have inside information from the police investigation, everything else is speculation and hearsay. He may be a criminal, but to call him a rapist before he has been charged and found guilty is somewhat premature, don’t you think?

May 24, 2012 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

The alleged Brit rapist looks South Asian.

May 24, 2012 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

Although Yang Rui implies that he wants actions against “illegal” foreigners but none of his examples are actually illegals or had overstayed their visas. Am I correct about this?

And Yang Rui’s silly translation defense of “Pofu,” calling Melissa Chan, a bitch or a woman of violent temper and speech is slander period.

May 24, 2012 @ 9:43 pm | Comment

Guys, Yang Rui is a product of an older media model, suddenly thrust into the age of twitter. Cut him slack… (kidding, those views are crazy)

May 24, 2012 @ 11:36 pm | Comment

jim
Unless you have inside information from the police investigation, everything else is speculation and hearsay.

The fact that he threw the first punch is not speculation. He is guilty of physical and sexual assault.

Cheung
It’s not his race or nationality that makes him more or less deserving of punishment. His actions are what should determine his punishment. That’s a point that Yang Rui fails to grasp.

His race does matter because (usually white or black) foreigners in Asia commit a disproportionate amount of crime for a tiny minority of “traveling class” transients. This is usually due to arrogance and racism on their part towards the natives.

May 25, 2012 @ 2:34 am | Comment

CM, check out the link in comment #84. Can’t recall a wave of Sinophobia regarding that.
You might also remember this
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10699547
Not only was the murderer Chinese, he was allowed to be tried in China and the NZ government asked that he be not executed.
Compare and contrast….

Liked this in WaPo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-chinaforeigner-bashing-brings-a-public-backlash/2012/05/24/gJQA4eAenU_story.html

May 25, 2012 @ 5:52 am | Comment

Yang Rui is a product of an older media model

That may be so. But he is also a product of a political model which is pretty alive.

May 25, 2012 @ 6:01 am | Comment

@slim

Given half the Brits in trouble abroad are from various ex-colonies, that could be true.
However, his head is shaved….a sign of true blue British blood….
Not sure how the law is in China. Used to be “innocent until proven guilty” in the UK, though I hear standards have fallen with the recession. I do note every publication (even the GT, I think) refer to his “alleged” sexual predation…

May 25, 2012 @ 6:04 am | Comment

Mike
Not only was the murderer Chinese, he was allowed to be tried in China and the NZ government asked that he be not executed.

The undeniable fact is that Chinese everywhere have lower crime rates than the majority population with the sole exception of Japan. That he was extradited to China only reflects NZ’s wish to be relieved of the tax burden, and also harsher punishment.

May 25, 2012 @ 6:54 am | Comment

and the crime rate in Japan is only marginally higher, and that’s because almost all of the Chinese there are part of a migrant underclass with no support whatsoever.

May 25, 2012 @ 6:55 am | Comment

“His race does matter because (usually white or black) foreigners in Asia commit a disproportionate amount of crime for a tiny minority of “traveling class” transients.”
—whoa whoa whoa, slow down there, cowboy. First of all, do you have a factual basis for claiming that foreigners commit a disproportionate amount of crime? ie. can you show that the number of charges laid per capita on foreigners in China is higher than the number of charges laid per capita on Chinese citizens in China? (I’m using “charges” rather than “crimes” just so we’re talking about stuff with some degree of legal proof)

And even if you establish the first aspect, his race STILL does not matter, unless he’s actually committed a crime. Otherwise, your logic boils down to: white people often commit crimes in China; this guy is a white person; therefore he’s committed a crime in China. That would be pretty lousy, and entirely racist, logic (which btw is what Yang Rui was up to).

Like I said, if a white guy commits a crime, by all means charge him. But don’t charge him for the “crime” of being white.

May 25, 2012 @ 7:15 am | Comment

@ S.K. Cheung
Don’t bother, you know he (or was CM a she?) will say that the filing of charges is nothing because foreigners often get let off the hook in China. I’m not sure to what extent that may be true; I wouldn’t be surprised if some lazy cops would rather look the other way on minor offenses than have to try to deal with a foreigner, and it seems reasonable that they might choose to deport rather than try and jail people on minor or victimless crimes (I’m not sure what the procedures for yanking someone’s visa are, but I’ll bet it’s a lot easier than trying and incarcerating someone who probably needs an interpreter)but the idea that foreigners still enjoy “extraterritoriality” seems overblown.

May 25, 2012 @ 7:39 am | Comment

Amazing the lengths these foreigners go to in order to commit a crime – some even resort to becoming Chinese! Oh, wait…
http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99/ID/710992/Elevator-sex-pest-arrested-confesses-to-molesting-15.aspx

Priceless comment submitted!

“Dear Yang Rui … would you care to comment on a Chinese man molesting 15 women?”

May 25, 2012 @ 8:21 am | Comment

“That he was extradited to China only reflects NZ’s wish to be relieved of the tax burden, and also harsher punishment.”
—ummm, wrong. Read Mike’s link. The murderer fled NZ after the crime, and was arrested in China. There is no extradition treaty between NZ and CHina, which is why the trial is being held in China. Your statement is completely, utterly, factually wrong. I really don’t know what your problem is. If someone is at fault, it is always someone other than China. If someone is to blame, it is anybody but China. You simply have no concept of taking responsibility. Besides, there is no blame here to apportion, other than with the murderer himself. It’s not the fault of one side or the other that there is no extradition treaty between the 2 countries. Also, NZ police are cooperating with the CHinese prosecution only after the death penalty is off the table, meaning that NZ is in fact ensuring that this guy’s maximum punishment would be less than, and not harsher than, if it were entirely up to CHina. You really are unbelievable, though remarkably consistent and thus I suppose somewhat predictable.

Here’s another example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/09/19/trial-date-set-in-china-for-amanda-zhao-bc-murder_n_970133.html
Chinese guy murders Chinese woman in Canada, flees to China. No extradition agreement. So trial is in China for crime committed in Canada, and the guy won’t face the death penalty.

May 25, 2012 @ 12:57 pm | Comment

SK Cheung
First of all, do you have a factual basis for claiming that foreigners commit a disproportionate amount of crime?

You need to slow down, and by slow down I mean actually read what I said. For a privileged class of people (who can afford travel), they commit an unreasonable amount of crime. These aren’t exactly rednecks and chavs here. This ties into my latter point, which is that they do it because they see the natives as less human than themselves.

Asia expats who are criminals do things they would never consider in their home countries, like paying 12 year olds in Thailand for sex. The vast majority of these freaks are Australians, Europeans and Americans even though Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, etc tourists visit Thailand more in terms of absolute numbers of visitors.

his race STILL does not matter

It absolutely does. It calls to attention an ongoing social problem, which is the arrogance of many white foreigners in China and the worship and subservience directed at them by many pathetic natives.

It goes without saying that if such grossly distorted views were normalized, many of these crimes would not happen.

But don’t charge him for the “crime” of being white.

No one’s charging him for the “crime of being white”, or he’d be shot. The incident DOES, however, draw attention a specific social phenomenon that is absolutely distinct from everyday crime.

Mike Goldthorpe
“Dear Yang Rui … would you care to comment on a Chinese man molesting 15 women?”

This is a red herring. Chinese people, as you have noted, face death for egregious crimes. Are you saying that the white rapist you’re desperately defending here should be given the same sentence as a native would?

May 26, 2012 @ 6:01 am | Comment

What’s so telling here is that you have lots of foreign men raping and molesting Chinese children, and the only thing TPD commentators can think of is defending the (non-existent) “honor” of “their people”.

May 26, 2012 @ 6:03 am | Comment

CM @114 – “He is guilty of physical and sexual assault”

Wishing it to be so, will not make it so. While the law in China may not be perfect, it is at least not dispensed by a self-selecting jury of Youku commenters and keyboard warlords.

May 26, 2012 @ 10:36 am | Comment

Glad to not be in China at the moment, sounds like the real dumbasses are coming out and having a field day. All those horrible laowai ruining our harmonious society!
I don’t expect anything even slightly sophisticated or nuanced to come out of Yang Rui’s mouth, but considering that his show is designed to promote “cross-cultural dialogue,” he might consider toning down the xenophobia. Trash is not a kind word to apply to any type of human being. Even cookie monster.

May 26, 2012 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

jim
Wishing it to be so

Oh right, I guess the girl was just faking it. Those vicious Chinese teenagers will do anything to screw over innocent, angelic laowai who never commit any crimes anywhere.

kevin
Glad to not be in China at the moment, sounds like the real dumbasses are coming out and having a field day.

Sounds like you’re a coward. You’re far more likely to be assaulted for your marriage in the US than China.

May 26, 2012 @ 12:42 pm | Comment

To CM:
“For a privileged class of people (who can afford travel), they commit an unreasonable amount of crime.”
—well wait a second. A “foreigner”, by definition, is someone who has traveled to China from abroad. It still boils down to you saying that foreigners commit an unreasonable amount of crime. All I’m asking for is a basis for this statement/conclusion.
Alternatively, are you making a distinction between a “residential” foreigner (who for example goes to China for work and stays in one place) vs a “visiting” foreigner (who is simply on vacation in CHina)? And are you saying then that it is the “visiting” foreigner who disproportionately commits crime? But even then, the question remains: what proof do you have to suggest that the typical “visiting” foreigner in China is on a crime spree?

“Asia expats who are criminals do things they would never consider in their home countries, like paying 12 year olds in Thailand for sex.”
—that’s disgusting, of course. But we’re talking about China. Are the types who go to Thailand for underage sex the same ones who visit China? If you say they are, on what basis do you say so?

“It calls to attention an ongoing social problem, which is the arrogance of many white foreigners in China”
—http://tealeafnation.com/2012/05/with-student-killer-spared-chinese-netizens-again-seek-to-sway-outcome/

So does the student killer case call into attention an ongoing social problem, which is the derogatory attitude and violent sexual depravity of Chinese men towards Chinese women? Of course not. It simply means this one particular Chinese guy is an animal. Which is precisely my point. It is the man, and not his race or skin colour, that is the problem. And the focus should be on the man who commits a crime, not his race or skin colour.

“worship and subservience directed at them by many pathetic natives.”
—and you’re blaming the white guy for the attitudes of the locals? Like I asked earlier, what is with the litany of blaming going on with you?

“The incident DOES, however, draw attention a specific social phenomenon that is absolutely distinct from everyday crime.”
—yes, white guys commit crime too. It’s certainly not confined to the everyday Chinese criminal. So if someone commits a crime, be they Chinese or white, they should do the time. But going around thinking that every foreigner is a criminal on the basis of a drunken Brit asshole is no more logical than thinking that every Chinese guy is a sex murderer on the basis of one Chinese sex murderer.

“Are you saying that the white rapist you’re desperately defending…”
—let’s get the rumours straight (cuz the facts appear somewhat incomplete here). There was no rape as far as I could tell. Sexual assault, perhaps. No need to embellish for rhetorical effect.

“you have lots of foreign men raping and molesting Chinese children,”
—and again, do you have any factual basis at all for that statement, or is it just for shock value? So the average foreign male in China is a pedophile now? Jeez louise, dude.

So how about showing at least some redeeming qualities and be man enough to acknowledge you messed up with the comment on Mike’s NZ link, and at least issue a retraction?

May 26, 2012 @ 3:08 pm | Comment

You might as well enter an argument with a religious sectarian – who thinks of himself as God, Cheung. If CM thinks he can decide a case instead of a court, that should speak for itself. The more you add, the more likely the gist of his character gets overlooked in a thread.

May 26, 2012 @ 3:46 pm | Comment

SK Cheung
what proof do you have to suggest that the typical “visiting” foreigner in China is on a crime spree?

You still completely missed the point. I’m not going to repeat myself.

Are the types who go to Thailand for underage sex the same ones who visit China?

They tend to go to “Asia” and just move around, unfortunately. There are a lot of Western child molesters in Korea and Japan, not sure if they’ve started to infest China yet – or if they’re simply too afraid to act on their desires.

So does the student killer case call into attention an ongoing social problem

Nope, it’s your rare crime in a nation where the murder rate is extraordinarily low, especially for a developing nation.

and you’re blaming the white guy for the attitudes of the locals? Like I asked earlier, what is with the litany of blaming going on with you?

I blame him for his arrogance and the locals for tolerating it. It looks like they’re finally fed up. Good for them.

But going around thinking that every foreigner is a criminal on the basis of a drunken Brit asshole

No one, not even Yang, said that. I know whites are more likely to commit crimes than Chinese people given the same circumstances, but the whites in China are a self-selected bunch (they can afford travel).

So the average foreign male in China is a pedophile now

If you don’t distinguish between the words “lots” and “average”, maybe. The fact remains that if all of these foreigners were replaced with Overseas Chinese you’d see far fewer horrific sex crimes.

So how about showing at least some redeeming qualities and be man enough to acknowledge you messed up with the comment on Mike’s NZ link, and at least issue a retraction?

I didn’t mess up. Extradition or deportation, in this case, is merely a semantic difference. Many countries simply deport foreign criminals instead of charging them because it’s cheaper or because they don’t want to deal with the hassle.

May 27, 2012 @ 12:47 am | Comment

justrecently
BOO HOO HOO, white people are SOOOOOO oppressed!

I don’t agree. Regardless, I’m saying I would have killed the man in the heat of the moment, personally, but I’m definitely not expecting the (foreigner coddling) Chinese government to execute him. There is a big difference, one that you miss for your “woe is us poor laowai” whining.

May 27, 2012 @ 12:49 am | Comment

To JR,
It’s not even about this case in particular. That drunken Brit was a drunken sleazebag, and we will see if it rises to the level of criminal sleazebag. Regardless of the outcome, it doesn’t justify the racism and xenophobia, or the prejudicial attitudes.

May 27, 2012 @ 2:15 am | Comment

There is no prejudice. Yang was specifically referring to a minority of assholes.

May 27, 2012 @ 4:34 am | Comment

“I’m not going to repeat myself.”
—if you’re unable to make your point, that’s no skin off my back.

“They tend to go to “Asia” and just move around, unfortunately. There are a lot of Western child molesters in Korea and Japan”
—do you have any numbers whatsoever to back up these gross generalizations?

“they’re simply too afraid to act on their desires.”
—oh great, so even the ones who haven’t done anything are simply closet pedophiles and criminals who have managed to keep it bottled up. You really are priceless. So the average white guy walking down the street in China isn’t innocent, he’s simply pre-guilty. Nice.

“it’s your rare crime in a nation where the murder rate”
—that’s true. But you’ve yet to demonstrate with numbers that foreigners committing crime in China is NOT rare (or even that it is less rare than among the native population).

“I blame him for his arrogance”
—huh? Blame him for the attempted sexual assault. Where is the “arrogance”? Are you getting delusions again? I agree that locals needn’t be deferential, but again that’s on the locals, not the visitors.

“I know whites are more likely to commit crimes than Chinese people given the same circumstances”
—and you know this how?

“whites in China are a self-selected bunch (they can afford travel). ”
—this reiterates your earlier point, which you have yet to clarify: how does a more affluent subset of white folks make them more likely to commit crime?

“The fact remains that if all of these foreigners were replaced with Overseas Chinese you’d see far fewer horrific sex crimes.”
—sounding like a broken record here, but any numbers there?

“I didn’t mess up. Extradition or deportation, in this case, is merely a semantic difference.”
—LOL. Go read it again, Einstein. THe guy committed the crime, then returned to CHina, and was arrested in China 6 months later. NOt extradition. Not deportation. I’ll wait while you drum up the intestinal fortitude to own a mistake for once.

May 27, 2012 @ 8:41 am | Comment

“Yang was specifically referring to a minority of assholes.”
—he did that several days after his initial tweet, talking about the 2% element in places like Sanlitun and qualifiers like that. He initial tweet makes no such distinctions, and I suspect the only reason he did a public back-pedal and climb-down 2 days later was because of the blow-back he was getting.

May 27, 2012 @ 8:46 am | Comment

SK Cheung
gross generalizations?

Does not compute. There are no generalizations here. You can ask me to quantify “a lot” but that’s about it.

how does a more affluent subset of white folks make them more likely to commit crime?

SK, no offense, but do you have Asperger’s? I’m saying that their crime rates are high for a specific subset of people. People with money and the means to travel, and people who work overseas, are generally better educated and have higher incomes – they are expected to commit fewer crimes than the general population (almost) anywhere.

May 27, 2012 @ 9:38 am | Comment

The best way to reply to CM is to quote him:

Oh right, I guess the girl was just faking it. Those vicious Chinese teenagers will do anything to screw over innocent, angelic laowai who never commit any crimes anywhere.

May 27, 2012 @ 9:41 am | Comment

“You can ask me to quantify “a lot” but that’s about it.”
—then do it already. And maybe how they “tend” to go to Asia and drift around. Bottom line, unless and until you can quantify and show that the crime rate per capita among foreigners in China is higher than the crime rate per capita among Chinese in China, you have absolutely no point whatsoever.

“I’m saying that their crime rates are high for a specific subset of people.”
—…and while you’re at it, quantify this as well. “Traveling” foreigners and foreigner working overseas are wealthier and better educated in general? I can buy that. Those who have higher incomes and better education commit less crime than the overall population, in general? I can buy that. The “traveling” subset of the wealthier/educated cohort commit more crime than other members of that cohort who stay in their home country? You need to demonstrate that. But all of that notwithstanding, you still need to bring it back to China, and show that foreigners commit more crime in China than Chinese do. Otherwise you have no point. The logic here is not complicated. And we’ve been through it several times already. Time for you to come up with the goods, or acknowledge that you can’t.

Btw, have you had a chance to re-read that NZ link, and realize the folly of your ways?

May 28, 2012 @ 2:21 am | Comment

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2012/05/china-rape-arrest-after-web-anger/

That drunken Brit might end up getting charged with sexual assault, and he might deserve it. Here’s a CCP official who has taken it to the next level. I guess he’d be a native devil. I wonder what the exchange rate is between a “CCP party official” pedophile and a “traveling foreigner” pedophile.

May 28, 2012 @ 8:54 am | Comment

SK Cheung
and show that the crime rate per capita among foreigners in China is higher than the crime rate per capita among Chinese in China

Again, you need to work on your reading comprehension. But yes, I’ll gladly compare the crime rates of traveling class Chinese earning $100,000 per year to that of similar foreigners there. In fact I don’t even need to bother looking for the data that probably does not exist or would take hours, you know it’s lower.

subset of the wealthier/educated cohort commit more crime than other members of that cohort who stay in their home country?

They probably do. But my main point is that they commit more crimes than similarly well-heeled Chinese, and that’s simply not something you can deny.

But please, tell me the next time a Chinese man puts his feet up above a Western woman’s head and calls her a stupid cunt on public transit, and then lie through your teeth about how there’s no difference in the amount of courtesy shown one way and the other.

May 28, 2012 @ 10:31 am | Comment

“But yes, I’ll gladly compare the crime rates of traveling class Chinese earning $100,000 per year to that of similar foreigners there.”
—huh? Where is “there”? This is what you had said in #114 (“His race does matter because (usually white or black) foreigners in Asia commit a disproportionate amount of crime for a tiny minority of “traveling class” transients.”). I know you have linguistic difficulties, but your words in #114 don’t sound like you were comparing the crime rate of foreigners in China with the crime rate of overseas Chinese in foreign countries. Besides, what would that have anything to do with this thread, or the xenophobia Yang Rui has spilled? This was never about Chinese being better or worse than other nationalities at being “foreigners”. If that was your point, then it was pointless. This was about some wacko presumption that foreigners in China commit more crime, and the lack of basis thereof.

“In fact I don’t even need to bother looking for the data that probably does not exist or would take hours”
—yeah, cuz who needs data that might not even exist in order to draw conclusions, right?

“they commit more crimes than similarly well-heeled Chinese, and that’s simply not something you can deny.”
—nor is it something you can prove, it would appear. Besides, you’re also assuming every foreigner in China makes more than 100K annually. Is that even remotely close to reality? My guess is no, but if you can prove otherwise, I’d love to see it.

“tell me the next time a Chinese man puts his feet up above a Western woman’s head and calls her a stupid cunt on public transit”
—fair enough. That guy was certainly needlessly and inexcusably rude. But that’s not a crime. So it doesn’t even factor into the discussion. That you need to reach for that incident in a discussion about crime is rather telling, wouldn’t you say? LOL.

BTW, how’s the review of that NZ incident going? The silence is deafening indeed.

May 28, 2012 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

Learn how to read, until then I’m not going to bother.

Besides, you’re also assuming every foreigner in China makes more than 100K annually.

Do you know what an average is?

BTW, how’s the review of that NZ incident going? The silence is deafening indeed.

Not even going to read it. There was no point to begin with, and I was right.

May 28, 2012 @ 11:48 pm | Comment

“Do you know what an average is?”
—yep. Except you said “traveling class Chinese earning $100,000 per year”, not earning an average of 100K per year. But that’s fine. Are you assuming foreigners in China make more than an AVERAGE of 100K annually? You know how this works. You say something stupid with questionable logic. I call you on it. You dance around and obfuscate for a while. I call you on it some more. Pretty soon you have nothing left…until the next time you say something stupid with questionable logic, of course. And that’s a matter of when, not if.

“Not even going to read it.”
—no, of course not. Why would you want to read something before commenting on it, right?

“and I was right.”
—not only are you too stupid to realize there was no extradition or deportation involved with that case, but you lack the depth of character and quality of upbringing to simply acknowledge a factual mistake. Typical. Not that there was any doubt with you, but i still enjoy it when you actively and openly remove any of it that there was.

May 29, 2012 @ 1:45 am | Comment

Not really, I didn’t address the point because it was irrelevant to the argument in the first place. Mike was just beating his manboobs over how great NZ is.

Nice try at scoring points. Typical Cheung, lose an argument and start with schoolyard insults :)

May 29, 2012 @ 3:09 am | Comment

“I didn’t address the point”
—except for blaming NZ over supposed extradition to save money. It’s all right there in #118 (“That he was extradited to China only reflects NZ’s wish to be relieved of the tax burden, and also harsher punishment.”). That’s the nice thing about these blogs…it’s all there in black and white. Too bad this wasn’t like a weibo post that you can delete in China, eh? Not that you’re in China, of course.

So, any more dumb things to say about those comparisons of yours to well-heeled traveling Chinese? The point is there is no proof that foreigners in China commit more crime per capita than locals in China per capita, and to suggest that foreigners in China are criminals is prejudicial, racist, and xenophobic. I’ll cue the dance track while you prepare your next obfuscation jig.

May 29, 2012 @ 4:17 am | Comment

SK Cheung
except for blaming NZ over supposed extradition to save money.

Cry me a river. It’s irrelevant.

The point is there is no proof that foreigners in China commit more crime per capita than locals in China per capita

No, it wasn’t. My point was that matched for socioeconomic status, foreigners commit more crime.

and to suggest that foreigners in China are criminals is prejudicial, racist, and xenophobic.

And also not what I wrote. Enough with your race card pulling nonsense.

May 29, 2012 @ 4:44 am | Comment

Guys, can we tone it down some? It’s getting really tiresome; speak your piece now because I’m going to close this thread soon.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:26 am | Comment

Cheung simply can’t tolerate anyone who doesn’t accept his dogma and blind faith in “democracy”.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:33 am | Comment

Mike’s link provided an example of a foreigner doing bad things in someone else’s country (which is the point of the thread)…only this time the foreigner was a Chinese guy, committing murder in NZ. Does it prove any trend? No. CM’s mistake was erroneously blaming the NZ government for deporting the guy or not extraditing the guy, which is factually wrong. And CM is simply not mature enough to admit a mistake. Such people annoy me.

“My point was that matched for socioeconomic status, foreigners commit more crime.”
—for which you have no proof. And my point is that “there is no proof that foreigners in China commit more crime per capita than locals in China per capita”, which I guess you don’t care to address, which is fine by me.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:43 am | Comment

Enough. This thread is going to Thread Heaven.

May 29, 2012 @ 7:55 am | Comment

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