My country

I know, the story and the photo and the video are everywhere. But I have to express my horror.

A friend in China tells me CCTV is playing this again and again, and I don’t blame them. They want to make the US look bad, and in this case they don’t have to try very bad; the US hasn’t looked this awful since Abu Ghraib. Heads should roll over this atrocity.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 115 Comments

CCTV had better be careful about how much play they give these protests, is all I have to say.

November 20, 2011 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

CCTV best not play this too much. English riots were contemptuously dismissed, apparently, by Chinese bloggers as something that happens every week in China. Shall we play any videos of how Chinese police treat their protesters?

As it is, is it me or is the west going down the Chinese path quickly? Italy now doesn’t have any elected people in it’s cabinet – all “technocrats”. Sad…best make my vote in NZ’s elections next week count!

November 20, 2011 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Before Merp chimes in, at least this is visible on the western media (yeah, mate, YouTube counts too ;-) ). Can’t recall reading about this in the Global Times…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8893337/Chinese-man-sets-himself-on-fire-in-Tiananmen-Square.html

November 20, 2011 @ 4:10 pm | Comment

I have a lot of things to criticize about my own country (Germany), but I’m not spending much time wondering how pictures or issues here may be viewed or used by the CCP propaganda department, or by the Chinese public. Such comparisons aren’t helpful when trying to define ones own standards.

Let’s stipulate that there are legitimate questions of how to balance the rights of peaceful protest against other people’s rights to go about their normal lives, writes James Fallows. That looks reasonable to me. The media were there, and the public was there. I hope the chillingly calm police will find out that they should have been more apprehensive. If that doesn’t turn out to be the case, you’ll have reasons to be worried indeed, Richard.

November 20, 2011 @ 5:51 pm | Comment

There’s much that angers me about this picture. However, the response of the university authorities is what I would like to focus on.

Like many among the older members of our generation of leadership, the Chancellor of UC Davis, Linda Katehi (real name: Pisti Basile Katehi-Tseregounis), is of the age that would have either taken part in or at least witnessed the student demonstrations of the late sixties or early seventies. In her case, she would have been 19 years old when the demonstrations at the Athens Polytechnic against the policies of the junta that ruled over her native Greece were crushed by military force.

No doubt Katehi thinks of herself as a progressive administrator, given her introduction of various “tolerance” initiatives, and her policy of making UC Davis a “hate-free” campus. These policies now seem incredibly ironic.

She would no doubt be shocked and offended to have her actions compared to the those of the Greek junta of her youth. In truth, by giving orders to remove students who were only occupying a public space in a university which they or their parent paid handsomely for them to attend, and not apparently interfering with the lawful activities of others, she made exactly this kind of situation inevitable. She should be ashamed of herself.

Unfortunately, though, shame seems to be in short supply at the moment. Instead of offering her resignation, she has instead set up a “task force” to “review the incident” and report back at some point in the future. The transparency of this attempt at obfuscation and white-washing is simply astounding.

Really, and people wonder why such so much hatred is outpoured on the internet by people around my age against the hypocrisy of the baby-boomer generation. Our present leadership comes from a generation marked by justified radicalism in their youth, and in their old-age by a total inability to learn from the experience of their parent’s generation.

November 20, 2011 @ 6:40 pm | Comment

Ms Katehi should have learnt a lesson from her predecessor Clark Kerr, who also sat on the fence after altercations with the Free Speech Movement in the 60s, and ended up being covered in manure.

November 20, 2011 @ 7:01 pm | Comment

Check out students giving Katehi the silent staring treatment as she walks to her car here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8775ZmNGFY8

November 20, 2011 @ 7:48 pm | Comment

Completely unnecessary. If the police were feeling threatened they could have used pepper spray on the people standing up, not the ones sitting down. It can be tough being a copper, but if you feel the need to overreact like this because you can’t take the pressure, you need to resign and find a nice desk job somewhere. The guy with the spray needs to be fired at the least.

—–

Mike G

As it is, is it me or is the west going down the Chinese path quickly? Italy now doesn’t have any elected people in it’s cabinet – all “technocrats”.

Yes, it is just you. :p

The new Italian cabinet has received a comfortable vote of confidence from elected presentatives in parliament. If those representatives were unhappy they could have rejected it. They didn’t because they know that there are no Italian politicians at the moment who have the ability to sort out the finances and keep the confidence of the markets.

Ideally elected politicians should sort out their own mess (the Italian fiscal crisis is mostly the making of politicians and a public used to a lifestyle they couldn’t afford), but this is an emergency situation requiring an unusual response, especially given that the Italian Opposition wanted Berlusconi out and wouldn’t work with him. Another “political cabinet” would have either taken weeks to form or wouldn’t have formed at all. That would have lead to a spike in Italian bond prices and led to economic meltdown.

As for the rest of “the West”, who are you talking about? I don’t notice any unelected governments in the UK, France, Spain, Japan, Canada, Australia, etc, etc.

Sad…best make my vote in NZ’s elections next week count!

If you don’t want to become Italy, vote for whoever has the most credible position to get the deficit under control!

November 20, 2011 @ 8:28 pm | Comment

FOARP

Really, and people wonder why such so much hatred is outpoured on the internet by people around my age against the hypocrisy of the baby-boomer generation.

Hell, the baby-boomer generation are why we’re in this mess. They wanted it and still want it all – low taxes, high spending, high pensions, early retirement, low interest rates, restrictions in planning permission for new houses (once they’d bought theirs). Basically they threw an outrageous party, trashed the house and now they’re hungover are asking their kids to clean up the mess.

November 20, 2011 @ 8:31 pm | Comment

Raj, the boomers didn’t demand most of these things: “low taxes, high spending, high pensions, early retirement, low interest rates, restrictions in planning permission for new houses (once they’d bought theirs).” It’s the older generation demanding the low taxes, our parents’ generation — the anti-tax movement is not coming from the young, from the boomers (most of whom are still not at retirement age). Here in the US most don’t get pensions (aside from government workers), they have IRAs and 401Ks. It’s the earlier generation that’s reaping the benefits of absurdly high pensions and who got early retirement (early retirement for mainly government workers). Planning permission for new houses is important for any city that doesn’t want to be a mess. The high spending I’ll grant you, but that culture was ushered in by Alan Greenspan and others of both generations who sold Americans a bill of goods, insisting everyone has a right to their own home, and creating a mindset where everything you buy could be taken care of with a home equity loan — living in debt became the norm. To just put all the blame on them is simplistic. It’s the seniors, many of whom I love, who sucked so much money out of the system, with no means-tested social security and privileges my generation doesn’t have and they never want to give an inch; they have the political power, far more than the boomers. So I’m going to say there is plenty of blame to go around.

FOARP, agree about Katehi, and I expect her to resign soon. This is totally intolerable. She can never have the trust of the students and parents again.

Yes, China should be careful how they use this. But for now it gives the Merps and the Hiddden Harmonizers rich material for denouncing the West and to claim we’re just as bad as the perpetrators of June 4th. It’s a facile argument, but I have no doubt that’s what we’re going to hear.

November 21, 2011 @ 1:07 am | Comment

Richard, I’m probably using the term “baby boomer” too loosely. You’re right that older people have benefited as much, if not more, from what used to be the status quo. I don’t understand why people with money are so selfish they can’t agree to means tested benefits. My parents aren’t super-rich, but if someone took away some of the perks they get I doubt they’d throw a tantrum.

Re pensions, ok I understand it’s different in the US – I was thinking more about the UK where public sector workers who are to retire soon-ish are resisting reform for highly selfish reasons (i.e. the idea you can have a final salary pension scheme based on the position you retire in, even if you’d only been in it for a year). There are plenty of baby boomers who are pushing to keep those schemes, whilst younger workers can’t join them.

November 21, 2011 @ 1:31 am | Comment

Mike Goldthorpe
Before Merp chimes in, at least this is visible on the western media (yeah, mate, YouTube counts too ;-) ). Can’t recall reading about this in the Global Times…

Right, and healthy foods are “visible” to the average consumer in the West. So why isn’t everyone in perfect health?

Because corporations seeking short term profit only dominate market share.

November 21, 2011 @ 2:55 am | Comment

Richard
the US hasn’t looked this awful since Abu Ghraib

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

You think gunning down reporters is less of a deal than some kids being sprayed with pepper spray?

Apologists for the West have selective memories.

November 21, 2011 @ 3:54 am | Comment

I am never an apologist for the west. This blog is crammed with criticism of the US, especially under Bush. Just check the archives. I never said the pepper spraying was a bigger deal than gunning down reporters. They’re both atrocious. Of course, neither compares to the TSM, but that’s another story, and I only mention it because you’re the one making comparisons.

November 21, 2011 @ 4:45 am | Comment

“Right, and healthy foods are “visible” to the average consumer in the West. So why isn’t everyone in perfect health?”
I never realised pepper spray was food… ;-)

November 21, 2011 @ 4:52 am | Comment

“Right, and healthy foods are “visible” to the average consumer in the West. So why isn’t everyone in perfect health?”
—good god, has mansbestfriend taken all leave of his canine senses? Healthy foods are present and available, and consumers can choose to consume it or not. “News” in China is not always present and available, and sometimes consumers can’t avail themselves to it even when they want to. Can you at least try to make a logical argument every once in a while?

I mean, if you want to compare this to TAM or any other incidence of police brutality in China, the difference is that info about UC Davis is freely and readily available, whereas officially, TAM never happened. The other thing is that these blog posts won’t get deleted, unlike what happens to stuff on Weibo all the time.

November 21, 2011 @ 6:31 am | Comment

Instead of protesting about the winners, why not try to be a winner yourself? The fundamental issue with these protesters is that they hold this idiotic notion that as long as “do what you are supposed to do” and “work hard”, you’ll do well in life. If you do that, you end up working through your 80′s with a shrunken 401k.

Why do the winners tell you to do you you are supposed to do and work hard? It’s so that you’ll do what you are supposed to do and work hard, for them.

That’s why, I made sure none of my children studied engineering in school – either MBA in preparation for business, or lawyer in preparation for politics. Nothing else has any hope. Unless they are lucky enough to be another Steven Jobs or Bill Gates, which is too risky to count on.

November 21, 2011 @ 7:34 am | Comment

What SK Cheung said. It’s not totally absurd to compare this to TAM et al (though we’ve yet to see tanks) but the information is freely and widely available. And it SHOULD be seen. I’ve posted these links and these images and I’m going to keep on doing it.

What’s more, I really wonder if the CCP wants to play up the power of peaceful protest and the power of people insisting on their right to protest, degraded as those rights may have become.

I don’t believe these protests or this movement is going away. It’s tying into a lot of other things, like the public workers in Wisconsin and the recall of the governor there. IMO we’ve finally reached a tipping point here, and it will be very interesting to see what happens next. It’s possible that the outcome is not going to be something that the CCP will want to see televised–a peaceful movement creating democratic change.

November 21, 2011 @ 7:38 am | Comment

SK Cheung
if you want to compare this to TAM or any other incidence of police brutality in China

… you’d notice that protest in China actually accomplish things.

November 21, 2011 @ 7:55 am | Comment

Other Lisa
And it SHOULD be seen.

You know what should also be seen? Iraqi war victims. Children mutilated by UXO in Cambodia. The dead babies of mothers doused in Agent Orange.

But if you dare make these records public, you will be hounded and threatened with death like Bradley Manning.

Americans are content with knowing .1% of what happens in the world, because their “free” media tells them it’s good enough.

November 21, 2011 @ 7:58 am | Comment

http://ucdfa.org/2011/11/19/dfa-board-calls-for-katehis-resignation/#comment-2447

Michael T. Richter says:

I am an educator in a Chinese college. I have been teaching in Chinese
colleges and universities for the past decade. In that decade, deep in the
heart of one of the most brutal police states in the world, I have never,
not even once, seen brutality from university and civil authorities that
comes even close to what I saw from UCB and UCD in recent days.

I say this with a very strong observational foundation, I might add. In the
year 2003, in the first institute I taught in (Jiujiang Institute, http://www.jju.edu.cn/), there was a full-fledged student riot—complete with massive property damage (a several hundred metre section of the school’s outer wall was torn down)—over restrictions placed on student movement during the SARS crisis. I was able to witness first-hand how the school’s authorities reacted. Despite being a well-connected official in one of the most brutally authoritarian states in the world, the president of the university went out, facing personal danger (students threw a variety of objects from their dormitory windows at him including filled thermos bottles), to *negotiate* with the students. The riots were brought back under control, tempers were cooled and the crisis brought to an end, get this, without the use of guns, chemicals, batons or even policemen.

Congratulations, America, you have actually managed to surpass China’s
brutality—and make no mistake, the Chinese government is a collection of
brutal thugs!—in this sphere.

I hope you’re proud.

November 21, 2011 @ 8:49 am | Comment

@StephenKing: Did your kids have any say in what they wanted to study?

November 21, 2011 @ 8:51 am | Comment

Yep, they said themselves that even though they like engineering, they want to move into the upper echelons of Anglo-Saxon society (the most powerful section for men today). So I’m grooming them to be on this path.

November 21, 2011 @ 10:36 am | Comment

To StephenKing,
for every MBA who “makes it” in business, I wonder how many are pushing papers at some middle-management desk. And for every actual elected politician, I wonder how many unelectable would-be politicians are running around. If you want to be Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, you don’t need a degree (they certainly didn’t miss it). It’s certainly foolish to “count on” being the CEO of the next Apple or Microsoft, but your hopes and dreams for your kids don’t seem that much more grounded in reality either.

November 21, 2011 @ 10:48 am | Comment

To get to the top, you need connections as well as a vision. And you do realise MBA stands for Master of Bugger All, don’t you? Everyone has an MBA – they don’t mean much. If you try and force them to do what they’re not good at, they’ll just be crap like all the other crap MBAs. For all you know they’d be bloody good engineers.

November 21, 2011 @ 11:20 am | Comment

You know what should also be seen? Iraqi war victims. Children mutilated by UXO in Cambodia. The dead babies of mothers doused in Agent Orange.

Cookie, your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. The scenes of the horrors of agent orange and the Iraqi war atrocities have been incredibly well documented and seen by countless Americans. none of them is censored. Don’t believe me? Go here right now — I posted that, years ago. This site documented these horrors my government committed. If you want to say these images of Iraq War atrocities or napalm or agent orange cannot be seen, I officially call you a liar and an idiot. Click the link now. There it is. And my blog still stands, uncensored. Click here, too, to see how the horrors of Vietnam were documented and uncensored. For all of America’s awful faults, as the one that inspired this post, there IS a difference between our system and the CCP: I can document the horrors of my government and I will not be censored. The photos are out there, Merp, the truth is out there, the media have reported it. Just about everything you say is a callous, outrageous lie. You are a moron and a liar.

Hong Xing, good to see you back; I thought you were gone forever. What’s up with your friend Math? Is he still with us? I hope so.

November 21, 2011 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

countless Americans.

How about a real number, and not journalism speak. If “countless” Americans have seen the pictures, where is the action? Results, not feelings, are what’s needed.

I posted that, years ago. This site documented these horrors my government committed.

True, and good on you, but it seems like years ago you called me out for citing the Lancet study which put Iraqi death tolls at over 600,000. Do you believe it now?

I can document the horrors of my government and I will not be censored.

No, but you can’t make them available lest they kill you. Nor is protest in US-backed dictatorships such as Mubarak’s Egypt a safe thing to do.

As you recall several people had to light themselves on fire to get the ball rolling. So why not continue in this vein and make a post covering US support of dictatorships everywhere?

The photos are out there, Merp, the truth is out there, the media have reported it.

Right, only 30-50 years after the fact do you learn the worst of what happens. Kinda like how only recently has the US confirmed that it oversaw the liquidation of hundreds of thousands of South Korean civilians.

I’m sure you will deny this on the spot as well. Maybe you’ll come around to it too.

November 21, 2011 @ 2:11 pm | Comment

To mansbestfriend,
“… you’d notice that protest in China actually accomplish things.”
—- and that’s fantastic. Since protest seems to be so effective in china in effecting positive change, I am sure you will join me in hoping for and calling for more and more protests to be allowed, and in fact encouraged, in china. After all, we all want chinese people to accomplish things, right? What are the chances of that happening under the Ccp? What are the chances that you want to see protest accomplish change in china? Slim to none on both counts, eh?

You are a funny specimen. You trip over yourself ( and proverbially spit out rice) at every opportunity to suggest that things are better in china under the Ccp than all things American. Even when it comes to protest, apparently. And it’s logic like that which buries you in these holes you dig for yourself. Dont get me wrong, it is fun to watch. But you’d think the Ccp could find someone a little brighter.

“You know what should also be seen? Iraqi war victims. Children mutilated by UXO in Cambodia. The dead babies of mothers doused in Agent Orange.”
—it’s funny all you Ccp types who claim that Americans don’t have access to this information and that information…except you all seem to have access to that very same information while living in America. So if you’re arguing that Americans are censored like Chinese are, then how did you find out about those things? Do you guys happen to have security clearance? Lol.

I know you need to compare like you need oxygen. But you are definitely barking up the wrong tree if you want to suggest that Americans censor like the Ccp does.

——————————

It’s as though right on cue, red star re-emerges. Didn’t someone just ask about him recently? And his link is actually bang on. UC Davis managed to make themselves look worse than the Ccp, and as mr. Richter notes, that is no easy task.

November 21, 2011 @ 2:33 pm | Comment

Oh yeah, the “my kids will all be engineers” argument. Or lawyers. Or doctors. Guess what? Not everyone can be an engineer. Even if everyone had the capacity to learn engineering, society doesn’t need that many. Society also needs teachers, and mechanics and farmers and secretaries and restaurant workers and janitors. Here is the issue: do you want to live in a society where only a small percentage of citizens make enough money to live decent lives? Is that the kind of community you want?

I expect the next argument will be how much better off the average American janitor is than a person living in poverty in Africa.

Well, if you are raising your kids to be engineers in America, ask yourself what kind of country you want them to live in.

I personally would like to live in one where my neighbors are doing okay, where the people who work in the supermarkets I shop at can pay their bills, where we live in vibrant, creative safe communities, and where people still have the opportunity to use their talents and to better themselves. I believe this is possible, and that it’s at least a preferable vision to some social Darwinism where there are a very few winners and the majority of people are fighting over crumbs.

This is still a wealthy country. We don’t have to fight illegal imperial wars to maintain our wealth — all those things have done is drained money out of the public sector to enrich certain narrow special interests. I think that a moral, just society is actually a lot more practical at the end of the day, because it works better.

/soapbox

November 21, 2011 @ 2:46 pm | Comment

UC Davis managed to make themselves look worse than the Ccp, and as mr. Richter notes, that is no easy task.

Well, as of yet, no UC Davis students have been sent to reeducation camps. But, you know, give it time…

November 21, 2011 @ 5:29 pm | Comment

or all of America’s awful faults, as the one that inspired this post, there IS a difference between our system and the CCP: I can document the horrors of my government and I will not be censored.

That may or may not be true.

But so what. By any measure, socialist China has been by and large a moral power. The US is an immoral power. Both historically and today.

If a serial killer openly admits to serial killing and allows people to document his killings, does that make him a better man than a person who will not admit to breaking wind in the office?

November 21, 2011 @ 8:48 pm | Comment

If a serial killer openly admits to serial killing and allows people to document his killings, does that make him a better man than a person who will not admit to breaking wind in the office?

Given that the CCP won’t admit most of what it has done, and has killed many people, I think it’s worse than your serial killer.

Oh, wait, you’re comparing the CCP to the guy who farted, weren’t you? Wayne, it says something about you that you consider all those Chinese who died and have been persecuted under CCP rule (such as the tens of millions of Chinese who died under Mao) of no more importance than a fart. You should be ashamed of yourself.

November 21, 2011 @ 9:22 pm | Comment

Merpoliar, I never criticized the Lancet numbers. As usual, you don’t know what you’re talking about. and now you’re hemming and hawing. We learned about “what really happened” when it came to America’s sins almost immediately, not 50 years later. You are nuts. The famous napalm photo came out in real time. Abu Ghraib was exposed months after it began, not 50 years later. Arguing with you is an exercise in self-abuse.

November 21, 2011 @ 11:14 pm | Comment

Wayne:
—–
Me: or all of America’s awful faults, as the one that inspired this post, there IS a difference between our system and the CCP: I can document the horrors of my government and I will not be censored.

You That may or may not be true.

But so what.
—–

The so what is that Merp was arguing that such images weren’t seen by the US public. That was the argument.

Now Merp, exposed as a liar, says, But how many people actually saw them? Well, the napalm photo got the Pulitzer prize and is even no an icon of the war. The Abu Ghraib photos were everywhere, including all newspapers, 60 Minutes and everywhere else. I’m not arguing which system is better necessarily. But for you to say the US is not a moral power while China is — well, it’s a free country (the US, not China) and you can say whatever you want, no matter how deranged .The US has grave moral faults and should be ashamed of many things. That’s why I report on the US moral failings all the time. But in terms of morality, I’m not going to say China or the US is morally superior. With no rule of law, rampant censorship and the ability to knock on the door and arrest anyone China is not very high up on the morality list. And there’s a lot more I can cite, stuff from both countries. It all depends on how you want to measure it. In the instance of this post, there will be changes and people will resign and there will be public protest. No such options in China. Don’t forget the tanks. Moral indeed.

For anyone new to this site, we had a problem a couple of years ago with a commenter named Wayne. A big problem. It turned out he posted under a different name as well, Mongol Warrior. Are you that same Wayne?

November 21, 2011 @ 11:24 pm | Comment

With no rule of law, rampant censorship and the ability to knock on the door and arrest anyone China is not very high up on the morality list.

In fact if you are a minority in the US you are far more likely to get a knock on the door and your ass kicked by the cops and a long spell in prison for a minor crime than in China. The minority imprisonment rate, of blacks and Hispanics is staggering and even the general imprisonment rate in the US is about 5 to 6 times higher than that of China. Tibetans, Uighurs etc actually get imprisoned at a lower rate than Han. If they had the same imprisonment stats as blacks and other minorities in the US, people here would hit the roof.

And then the US is a wealthy, developed country. So they have even less excuse than a country like China would, if China had the same issues in this area.

So on the domestic front I would say the US is worse than China.

On the international front of course it is the US which goes round kicking heads in. Not China. It is the US which has invaded scores of countries these past few decades and causes millions of excess deaths in the process.

So on both domestic and international fronts, the US is worse than China. That is quite clear.

Yes you can report on it. That is a good thing.

But China does less absolute evil, even though some would say there is less freedom to report on bad things. And even this is not entirely true as there are many bad things that can and do get reported all the time.

November 21, 2011 @ 11:57 pm | Comment

The other thing of course is both historically and now, the US is an imperialist country. China is not an imperialist country. So whatever faults China has, and she has many, China cannot be compared with an imperialist power like the US.

China was for over a century a victim of imperialism, and the Chinese people an oppressed peoples. The US in contrast is a predatory imperialist power.

It is like comparing a mafia family (metaphor for US) with perhaps a slightly dysfunctional family (China). No matter how well the head of the mafia family treats other family members, and even in fact if he treats them better than the father of the dysfunctional family treats his own children, the mafia family,, of course, is the one inherently evil.

November 22, 2011 @ 12:03 am | Comment

SK Cheung
more and more protests to be allowed, and in fact encouraged, in china.

Not more, better. Targeted and effective and completely uninfluenced by foreigners.

Other Lisa
This is still a wealthy country. We don’t have to fight illegal imperial wars to maintain our wealth — all those things have done is drained money out of the public sector to enrich certain narrow special interests. I think that a moral, just society is actually a lot more practical at the end of the day, because it works better.

True Lisa but America’s financial sector saps resources from other nations. Tons of illegal money flows into America and Europe. This is all pretty much stolen from poor people and victims of criminals.

Japan deserves a lot of praise for being pretty much the only fully-developed country that does not take part.

Given that the CCP won’t admit most of what it has done, and has killed many people, I think it’s worse than your serial killer.

The CCP has nothing to answer for. It’s a domestic political party and doesn’t need to apologize for Mao’s atrocities any more than democrats of today have to apologize for supporting slavery way back when. It has such a huge membership that doing so would be pointless. Chinese people can sort the problem out on their own and don’t need Western crocodile tears to do so.

Richard
The so what is that Merp was arguing that such images weren’t seen by the US public.

That was mainly in reference to “classified” Iraq War documents including the Collateral Murder videos. The extent of the damage done in Korea and Vietnam were not revealed until relatively recent, a few photos aside. You seem not to understand the difference between the sanitized image of the war you see and that which is hidden for decades, such as the massacre of leftists in South Korea which you again ignore in a laughable attempt to score points.

But I will hand it to you, I don’t take much time to edit so when I tacked on UXO and Agent Orange I neglected to modify the ensuing clause. I have no doubts you feel a need to take what you can get, and I won’t deny you.

With no rule of law, rampant censorship and the ability to knock on the door and arrest anyone China is not very high up on the morality list.

And the US regularly commits mass murder in the name of anti-Communist or anti-terrorism purges, has the largest prison population in perhaps all of human history, has a massive gap between rich and poor on racial lines, is essentially a corporatocracy with legalized corruption taken for granted as part of the system, is built on the bones of an annihilated and betrayed people, with slavery and abuse of immigrants high on its list of crimes.

Nearly 90% of America is a stone-age theocracy that violently persecutes homosexuals. Even a disordered post-Communist nation like China doesn’t beat gay men to death on the streets. Furthermore America props up dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and then has the gall to lecture China for being one of many nations invested in Burma or Sudan (both of which Japan and India traded with).

Furthermore America contributes single-handed to hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths each year by the actions of its banks and military. You are utterly and truly deluded if you compare an isolated incident like Tiananmen to regular police brutality in America. You prove my point of the phenomenon of selective ignorance and knee-jerk nationalism in ALL Americans including the educated and “progressive” segments of it.

But the main difference between authoritarian China and corporate theocracy America is that America thinks it’s the manifestation of God on Earth and has the right to take unilateral action on any front in any country. America brays and crows at every other country like they can do no wrong. You will take the side of Republicans out of sheer jingoism and brainwashing. Educated and allegedly liberal, you still think some pepper spray is among the worst things your country is capable of. Unbelievable.

November 22, 2011 @ 2:06 am | Comment

To 35:
“In fact if you are a minority in the US you are far more likely to get a knock on the door and your ass kicked by the cops and a long spell in prison for a minor crime than in China.”
—think about what you’re saying. “minorities” are “far more likely” to end up in jail for “minor crimes” than who? If more minorities are in jail for minor crimes, is it because they commit more minor crimes? That might invoke a larger social question about why minorities commit more minor crimes, but it does not reflect on a law-and-order problem in any way (ie if you do the crime, there should be no surprise that you do the time).

The minority imprisonment rate is high, but again it depends on whether that is proportional to the minority crime rate. BTW, part of the reason China imprisons fewer is because they simply execute way more. Much more important than the imprisonment rate is whether people are imprisoned in a just manner and only after due process. China under the CCP is a laughing stock in this regard. And as exemplified by the case of Chen Guangcheng in Linyi, even after imprisonment in jail, you can still be imprisoned in your own home without charge, much less conviction. China is supposedly better? How, exactly?

Not to mention that on the “domestic front”, this is but one issue. And one where your argument is rather unclear.

The US has done some harm overseas. And maybe some good. How the net ledger is viewed probably depends on your POV and your proclivities. China has projected much less power in the past. She is involved in Sudan with a rather questionable regime. And she’s making noises in SE Asia. Her worst work may be yet to come.

Bad things are starting to get reported more in China, thanks to stuff like Weibo, at least until posts get deleted. That is entirely thanks to Chinese people, with the CCP yet again standing in the way.

“Chinese people an oppressed peoples”
—are we still doing the “victim” thing in 2011?

“even in fact if he treats them better than the father of the dysfunctional family treats his own children, the mafia family,, of course, is the one inherently evil.”
—umm, one is plenty evil if he mistreats his own family. That would be the CCP, in your own words.

To 27:
“If “countless” Americans have seen the pictures, where is the action?”
—what “action” would you require for past historical events?

“No, but you can’t make them available lest they kill you.”
—huh, Richard just did. And he just reminded you of it. And you even had to acknowledge it, for once. Are you on glue?

Speaking of 30-50 years, I wonder how long it will take before the CCP acknowledges TAM. As Richard points out, Vietnam/Cambodia issues were known almost immediately, as were Iraqi events. So it seems that your arithmetic skills rival your capacity for logic. Not a good thing.

November 22, 2011 @ 2:33 am | Comment

SK Cheung
“minorities” are “far more likely” to end up in jail for “minor crimes” than who?

You should know that blacks face harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes. The rest can be explained by a higher crime rate as you imply. Of course if I were to do this I would be instantly called racist by Richard, you can get away with it however.

BTW, part of the reason China imprisons fewer is because they simply execute way more.

Wrong. China executes 5,000 a year according to anti-Chinese propaganda. That’s not even 150,000 people over several decades. America has roughly 3 million in jail. China would need to imprison at LEAST 10 million more people to match America’s rate. Or they would have needed to have executed at LEAST 300,000 people a year since the 1970s.

This is why you should argue on facts and not principle based on your indoctrination. I’m sure this will strike at your shill bone and you will react with the typical “CHINESE STATISTICS!” but keep in mind the figure for population is also something of a minimum.

She is involved in Sudan with a rather questionable regime.

“Rather questionable regime” indeed. Lancet, the same peer-reviewed journal that published a maximum of 400,000 dead in the Darfur conflict, estimated that 600,000 Iraqi civilians died during a mere three years of US military operations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_Iraq_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict

Funny, you and America’s media just so happen to fall in the same line – the Lancet is a respected and authoritative source when it comes to Sudan, but a collection of quacks and loons when it comes to Iraq. Rank hypocrisy.

Speaking of Sudan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_sudan

Main export partners China 48%, Japan 32.2%, Indonesia 5.3% (2008)

Funny, there were no calls to boycott Japanese and Indonesian (and Indian, and South Korean) goods. There were no calls to divest from Japanese or Indonesian companies. There were no special visits to Japan asking them to cease dealings with the Sudanese government.

All as part of an alleged “genocide” (a claim the Christian Science Monitor, a publication Richard respects, repudiates) that died down LONG before China ever got involved.

That’s the West’s version of the truth for you. If you have access to the same “free information” that I do, it certainly doesn’t show.

one is plenty evil if he mistreats his own family.

I don’t know about you but he didn’t seem to imply the CCP merely mistreats people under its governance. They give and take. America takes and takes, and takes, and wipes some crumbs off of the table. This is why the world is such a disaster even with a powerful, benevolent God-state like America “policing” the world.

what “action” would you require for past historical events?

Pay for medical care for the Vietnamese victims of Agent Orange. Oh, but Americans can’t spare a few million for that, can they?

Speaking of 30-50 years, I wonder how long it will take before the CCP acknowledges TAM.

They don’t have to. The people responsible are mostly dead or infirm, and they showed far more restraint than your worthless tabloids imply.

November 22, 2011 @ 3:03 am | Comment

Cookie Monster, you will not get any arguments from me on the perfidy of the American — and for that matter, global financial system as it’s currently constituted. This is what the OWS protests are all about. The financial sector has rigged the game with its own rules and robbed the American public blind, as well as what it’s done to the rest of the world.

November 22, 2011 @ 5:38 am | Comment

However, CM, what you said about TAM? Give it up.

November 22, 2011 @ 5:39 am | Comment

Because this whole, “You’re worse than we are, neener, neener, and we didn’t DO that!” thing is stupid. I don’t understand why these discussions always devolve into that. The US has done a lot of really shitty things. So has China. Acknowledge the wrongs — and the rights, for that matter.

November 22, 2011 @ 5:44 am | Comment

The minority imprisonment rate is high, but again it depends on whether that is proportional to the minority crime rate. BTW, part of the reason China imprisons fewer is because they simply execute way more.

What????? I think you need to refer to Cookie Monsters rebuttal above.

5% of black males, 2% of Hispanic males, and 1% of white males is at any one time in prison.

There are far few males in China as a proportion of the population than there are even white males in the US in prison, not to speak of the situation for US minorities.

The fact is you are far more likely to go to prison for a very long time in the US for a minor crime than the same in China. Hence the high imprisonment rate.
The application of the death penalty in China, as another poster has mentioned above, is statistically irrelevant to this argument. Moreover the death penalty is nowadays overwhelmingly applied to only the worst crimes in China.

As an aside, what US state has a higher execution rate than China?

November 22, 2011 @ 8:16 am | Comment

Other Lisa
“You’re worse than we are, neener, neener, and we didn’t DO that!” thing is stupid.

Agree, which is exactly why the US state department, congress, news media and increasingly the population at large spews at China on a daily basis. They’re stupid.

The reason why it matters is because the US continues to be a menace to any nation or region that isn’t completely compliant to its banker’s greed. China to Arabs, Latinos, Southeast Asians and Africans is a country that will balance and check American power.

This is what America’s elites fear. China by comparison is the lesser of two evils.

November 22, 2011 @ 8:20 am | Comment

it says something about you that you consider all those Chinese who died and have been persecuted under CCP rule (such as the tens of millions of Chinese who died under Mao)

I’m sure that tens of millinos of Chinese died ‘under’ Mao, but that is because there are a lot of Chinese and they die for all sorts of reasons. But proportionally a whole lot fewer Chinese died during the time of Mao than at any other 27 year period in China’s history before Mao.

In fact the reason that China’s population doubled under Mao, is because of a dramatic lowering of mortality and a near doubling of life expectancy during his time in office. In fact one of the most rapid increases in world history.

http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/research/health_improvement_under_mao_and_its_implications_for_contemporary_aging_in_china/

During Mao’s time China did better than all other directly comparable nations in improving the well-being of her people.

November 22, 2011 @ 8:23 am | Comment

“You should know that blacks face harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes.”
—do you actually have data to support this assertion?

“Wrong. China executes 5,000 a year according to anti-Chinese propaganda. That’s not even 150,000…”
—which is why I said “PART of the reason…”. Even when you quote me directly, you choose to not argue against the entirety of said quote. And you focus on the “BTW” part while ignoring the bigger point: “Much more important than the imprisonment rate is whether people are imprisoned in a just manner and only after due process.” Man, if you didn’t offer up disingenuous arguments, you’d have nothing to offer at all.

“the Lancet is a respected and authoritative source when it comes to Sudan, but a collection of quacks and loons when it comes to Iraq. Rank hypocrisy.”
—when did I question the Lancet? But if you support Lancet data as you seem to, and you want to make a big deal about Iraqi numbers, then you can’t exactly ignore the Sudanese numbers either. But if Wayne was going to suggest that China’s hands are somehow clean, that is clearly not the case…at home (where there is really no debate) or abroad, as shown by the Lancet.

“Funny, there were no calls to boycott Japanese and Indonesian (and Indian, and South Korean) goods.”
—indeed. If it were up to me, there should be. But as you can see, China is still at the head of that list. Most people would find it logical to start at the top of a list when it came to resolving issues.

“he didn’t seem to imply the CCP merely mistreats people under its governance.”
—huh? Of course he did. Who else would China’s “children” be if not the people under its governance. You gotta be kidding me. Besides, if Wayne didn’t imply that CCP mistreats people under its governance, he most certainly should have.

“Pay for medical care for the Vietnamese victims of Agent Orange.”
—that might sound good, but not so fast. It was war. Restitution would be reasonable if a crime was committed, in which case it would be a different story.

“They don’t have to. The people responsible are mostly dead or infirm, and they showed far more restraint than your worthless tabloids imply.”
—LOL, it’s hilarious that you don’t even recognize your own double standards. You complain (erroneously) that Americans don’t find stuff out about Vietnam for “30-50″ years, when plainly information was readily available nearly simultaneously. But when it comes to TAM, where information is NOT readily available to Chinese people, they don’t need to change their history books cuz most of the characters are dead? When did history make allowances for people who are nearly dead or infirm? Your logic, as usual, is garbage. That has to be lame even by CCP apologist standards, which, as we all know, are not lofty to begin with.

To 37:
“Not more, better.”
—ok. Let’s go with that. Even mansbestfriend is in favor of better protests in China. Hmm, I wonder how they can be better….oh, maybe if they don’t jail the people who start protests, like the old lady in Shanghai who engineered protests about poor pension payments; or maybe if they allow people to assemble to protest, without having to play little weibo games like “randomly” walking slowly down the street; or maybe if they allow information to permeate through society in the press as well as internet so that awareness of protests is heightened. Yes, the CCP should really allow Chinese people to protest “better”. So, whadya think? Sound good?

“Chinese people can sort the problem out on their own”
—that would be great. When can they start?

The rest of that rant, as Other LIsa points out, is more of the same tired party line. The US has problems. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? How does that absolve the CCP’s need to surrender power to the people? And if the US is as bad as you seem to think it is, what on earth are you doing there?

November 22, 2011 @ 9:20 am | Comment

Wayne is definitely Mongol Warrior. He made the same arguments about China’s population growth last year when he infiltrated a thread and wreaked havoc. And it was followed by his sending obscene emails to several commenters here, and even to James Fallows. He is very bad news. Readers beware.

November 22, 2011 @ 9:35 am | Comment

SK Cheung
But if Wayne was going to suggest that China’s hands are somehow clean, that is clearly not the case…at home (where there is really no debate) or abroad, as shown by the Lancet.

China is not responsible AT ALL for the conflict in Darfur. They got involved when 95% of the killing was over. In fact if you wanted to be obtuse you could even claim China’s presence is what brought the fighting to a gradual end.

Lets not even mention that the rebels who started the fighting in Sudan were US backed, and ignore of course the bombing of al-Shifa which caused tens of thousands more deaths from disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory#Consequences

November 22, 2011 @ 10:51 am | Comment

If it were up to me, there should be.

Oh REALLY now? So you want to boycott Japanese goods for importing oil from Sudan. Should the West cut off aid to India as well? Cease all military support to Indonesia? Then shall we next boycott European and American goods because they prop up dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and (formerly) Tunisia and Egypt, and in the process kill far more than Sudan’s trading partners ever did?

So the only place you could buy anything from would be Norway. Sweden should also be boycotted because of their massive arms exports.

November 22, 2011 @ 10:54 am | Comment

SK Cheung
ok. Let’s go with that. Even mansbestfriend is in favor of better protests in China. Hmm, I wonder how they can be better….oh, maybe if they don’t jail the people who start protests, like the old lady in Shanghai who engineered protests about poor pension payments

They need to be better about who gets thrown in jail and who doesn’t. It’s reasonable to imprison people for illegally protesting if it threatens to spiral out of control and create chaos, but there’s a great deal of room for improvement.

As long as their claims are well-substantiated and they are not just stirring shit for the West then there should be no problem.

November 22, 2011 @ 10:59 am | Comment

Oy vey. I think this thread’s relevance has officially expired.

November 22, 2011 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

To 43:
“I think you need to refer to Cookie Monsters rebuttal above.

5% of black males, 2% of Hispanic males, and 1% of white males is at any one time in prison.”
—you are missing the point that Cookie already acknowledged. Looking at the prevalence of various ethnicities in prison in isolation is pointless. You need to at least compare that to the crime rate of each of those ethnicities. If more blacks commit crime (and as I already acknowledged above, that is a whole other issue), then you would expect more blacks to be imprisoned.

“There are far few males in China as a proportion of the population than there are even white males in the US in prison, not to speak of the situation for US minorities.”
—what does that have to do with anything? Is the prison population in China smaller because prosecutors get bought off? Because victims of crime are paid money instead of the perps going to jail? Because crimes simply aren’t prosecuted? THe number in prison in isolation is meaningless.

“The fact is you are far more likely to go to prison for a very long time in the US for a minor crime than the same in China.”
—on the other hand, blind lawyers who complain about their government are far more likely to end up in jail in China followed by house arrest than in the US, I believe.

To 44:
“The reason why it matters is because the US continues to be a menace to any nation or region that isn’t completely compliant to its banker’s greed.”
—oh boy, here we go. Don’t we get a swig of your kool-aid to wash that down with?

To 45:
“I’m sure that tens of millinos of Chinese died ‘under’ Mao, but that is because there are a lot of Chinese and they die for all sorts of reasons.”
—indeed. Like some of the things Mao did, and some of the things Mao didn’t do. I don’t know if you’re Mongol, nor care. But you certainly seem like a Mao worshipper. Well done.

To 48:
“In fact if you wanted to be obtuse you could even claim China’s presence is what brought the fighting to a gradual end. ”
—LOL

November 22, 2011 @ 1:36 pm | Comment

^ bold for someone who knew nothing about the Darfur Conflict before 10 minutes ago

November 22, 2011 @ 2:06 pm | Comment

Oh, all right. I’ll play. It’s absurd to try and determine whether the US or China is “the lesser of two evils.” Their global roles have not been comparable. If China ends up being the world’s hegemon for 50 years or what have you, then we can make a real comparison.

Why I don’t think China would be an improvement:

Lack of institutional accountability. You have the CCP. There are no other institutions allowed to challenge the Party’s preeminence. The rule of law is weak and inconsistent because it is subordinate to the Party, which means it is subordinate to individual authority. There are no real checks and balances on the Party’s power because of this. The press is not allowed to challenge the Party. Access to information is controlled and censored. You can argue all you want about how many people did or didn’t die at TAM but what you cannot do is have a public discussion in China about it (and I’m not talking about people getting together and talking in private, so let’s not go there). All the arguments about the corporatization of American media (which is very bad) and the punishment of whistleblowers like Bradley Manning (also very bad) does not change that I can watch Youku and people in China can’t watch Youtube.

If your legal institutions are weak, if there are few checks and balances on power, power all too easily corrupts, because it’s not accountable to anyone but the strongest and the most powerful. And people with limited access to information are more easily manipulated — it’s pretty easily to manipulate a large percentage of people who DO have access to information (as the current American political situation so aptly demonstrates). “Manufacturing consent” and all.

So, in order for China to be a lesser of two evils as the preeminent global power, we have to believe that China’s leadership is not corruptible and will make the right decisions for the good of the many, that the various companies doing business around the world will act ethically without legal requirements for them to do so and that the exercise of authority will be just, and not arbitrary. And that the lack of information about what the government is doing will not breed corruption and abuse and the lack of citizens to demand accountability and redress won’t matter, and the inability to discuss past mistakes and how to address them won’t matter either.

I for one have my doubts. Because you can have all of those things that are missing in China in place and STILL abuse your power and your citizens and your global responsibilities, as aspects of US history so aptly demonstrate. You can still have certain individuals and institutions accrue far too much wealth and power.

Take away institutional restrains, the rule of law and checks and balances, and what do you have?

A wise, benevolent authoritarian overlord? You think? I mean, it would be nice. But that’s rarely how great powers conduct themselves in the best of times.

November 22, 2011 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

If more blacks commit crime (and as I already acknowledged above, that is a whole other issue), then you would expect more blacks to be imprisoned.

it is relevant…because it is well known that blacks are much more likely to be stopped and investigated for a crime, and secondly even though the conviction rate is high for minorities, the high imprisonment rate says something about that society itself and reflects social dissatisfaction and injustice and dysfunction within that society.

So, in order for China to be a lesser of two evils as the preeminent global power, we have to believe that China’s leadership is not corruptible and will make the right decisions for the good of the many..

You have missed the point. While you and Richard keep on going on about the purported good things of the US system and the freedoms you have within that system, the important thing to note is those good things are only available to the citizens of the US. The Iraqi people, Vietnamese people, Afghani people and millions of other people murdered by US imperialism around the world have absolutely no say.

Did GW Bush ask the opinions of Iraqis before smashing their country to bits? Did Obama take scientific polls of the Libyan population to see if they really welcomed outside intervention?

Of course not.

The US is an imperialist nation which has cornered a majority of the world’s resources for the benefit of its own citizens (even though within the US itself that wealth is incredibly unevenly distributed), and maintains and uses a huge military machine to keep its grip on these resources. The US citizenry will act in its own interests and vote who they think will represetn their own interests in the interests of maintaining what is still an incredibly privileged lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

A criminal family is a criminal family regardless of the internal decision making processes and distribution of power within that family. Would I trust Don Corleone anymore if I found that he consulted with his sons and daughters and grandchildren when deciding who next to rob or kill? Of course not.

November 22, 2011 @ 5:49 pm | Comment

The reason why I think China would be far better than the US is the track record of the US.

If I met two random people, and one had a huge criminal record and the other a more or less clean slate, I would put my trust firstly on the fellow with a clean slate. Of course the fellow with the clean slate could end up bad or even worse than the guy with a criminal record. But on the balance of probabilities not.

The other reason is this. The US is still dominated by an Anglo Saxon elite and reflects an Anglo Saxon mindset. The Anglo Saxon peoples are among the most aggressive in history. Whereas Chinese civilization is among the most non-imperialistic in history.

Anglo Saxons have been the most selfish, aggressive race over at least the last half millenium. And we all know the crimes committed by their germanic cousins. As long as the Anglo Saxon mindset dominates the US, the world will never expect any peace.

Another important reason. While China is far from perfect, she still is a socialist state in name, if not deed (although this can be argued). The whole of China’s revolution was founded on an anti-imperialism programme, not just for herself but for all oppressed peoples around the world. When a person proclaims himself to be this or that, it does have a restraining effect on what he or she does – humans are programmed to be consistent – at least in the public eye.

If China was to formally ditch Marxism Leninism, she would in fact be more dangerous than what is even claimed for her now by her worst detractors. What would you prefer? China which officially proclaims anti-imperialist Marxism Leninism or some sort of ideology based on national chauvism and racism – as has dominated the West over the past few hundred years?

Furthermore on a domestic front, we can see that China still does a lot of good things it does not have to – such as huge preferential treatment for minorities compared to Han. Do you think the Tibetans and Uighurs etc would be better off with some sort of one-man one-vote system you have in the West?

November 22, 2011 @ 5:59 pm | Comment

@Richard – You really wonder why the people who troll this forum bother. I mean, Mongol Warrior’s now been doing this for – what – more than five years? Doesn’t adulthood ever dawn? I know, I know, “there’s some sick people out there”, but even the crazies who you bump into on city streets don’t stay in place for that long – they either move on, or get moved on. I mean, as much as people talk about Hidden Harmonies crew as being extreme, their posting on other forums does not take the direct form of trolling, but instead merely represents their political viewpoints – so what’s with Merp/Cookie/Wayne etc.?

November 22, 2011 @ 8:13 pm | Comment

Try actually addressing his points instead of resorting to ad hominems.

Lisa, what you say is true – INSTITUTIONALLY and on paper China’s system poses a threat. But China isn’t just its government. The people have no appetite for imperialism and before any troll mentions Tibet or why China is so big, I would tell them to go in for some history lessons.

Even so America’s track-record is god-awful. It’s not enough to simply have one line mentioning this in passing. You could write entire volumes spanning perhaps eight semesters on only the evil America commits in a decade.

My opinion is that China needs rule of law and transparency first, but what makes me sick the thought that China will just go from one flawed government to another, like America’s corporatocracy. Unfortunately evangelical democra-tists don’t understand that rule of law has nothing to do with democracy.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:00 am | Comment

To 55:
“because it is well known that blacks are much more likely to be stopped and investigated for a crime”
—true, racial profiling does occur, and that is wrong. However, being investigated is not the same as being imprisoned, which has been your point up till now.

“secondly even though the conviction rate is high for minorities”
—is it higher than for “non-minorities”? Also, conviction rate by itself is again irrelevant. It’s the rate of wrongly convicted that would be of interest. If someone commits a crime, and are convicted of it, where’s the problem? High conviction rate is a good thing, unless the rate is artificially inflated by people who are wrongly-convicted.

“the high imprisonment rate says something about that society itself and reflects social dissatisfaction and injustice and dysfunction within that society.”
—it’s not the imprisonment rate, but the crime rate, that speaks to a more fundamental issue in society. And I’ve already stipulated to that several times. If minorities (or anybody else) do the crime, they should do the time. That bespeaks a functioning criminal justice system. Whether (and why) minorities might commit crime at a higher rate than the societal average would be a larger societal question.

“the important thing to note is those good things are only available to the citizens of the US.”
—primarily available to US citizens, perhaps. It should be no surprise that the US government serves US citizens, first and foremost. The question is whether the Chinese government as currently constituted serves Chinese people first and foremost. I’d say they’re more inclined towards serving the CCP above all else. And if you want to argue that the CCP would be a more benevolent world power, as Other Lisa postulated, on what basis do you suggest that the CCP would do anything else but look after number 1 first and foremost? She already does so now, within China. What makes you think it would be any different beyond China? Right now, as Lisa says, the CCP has no checks or balances. As long as the CCP is around, that’s not going to change, whether within China or beyond.

To 56:
I would hardly characterize the CCP’s track record within China as “a clean slate”. So your entire post falls down because of a flawed premise. And to use your own analogy, for someone who can do to “family” the type of things the CCP does to her own people, imagine what they could do to someone they aren’t related to.

To 58:
“rule of law has nothing to do with democracy.”
—you are once again bedeviled by your grade-school grasp of “democracy”. Democracy for those with a brain is more than just voting or majority-rule.
You admit China needs rule of law and transparency. How is that compatible with authoritarianism? If the law goes against what the CCP wants, what ends up happening? Oh, that’s right, the CCP just ignores the law. When being transparent means that the CCP would be embarrassed, what happens? Oh, that’s right, transparency goes out the window. So forgetting about democracy for a second, if you say that China needs rule of law and transparency, but realize those things can’t co-exist with the CCP, then what?

November 23, 2011 @ 1:58 am | Comment

SK Cheung
It should be no surprise that the US government serves US citizens, first and foremost.

When you derive most of your power from theft, this is clearly morally wrong, but you obviously don’t care enough to even know how America got so rich (and stays rich) to begin with.

the type of things the CCP does to her own people, imagine what they could do to someone they aren’t related to.

Except China has a long history of not really treating foreigners (from neutral and allied states) worse than Chinese. Europeans, on the other hand, have a long history of genocide and other atrocities even before non-whites came into the picture (Celts, Basques, Sami)

November 23, 2011 @ 4:35 am | Comment

SK Cheung
you are once again bedeviled by your grade-school grasp of “democracy”. Democracy for those with a brain is more than just voting or majority-rule.

If by “grade-school” you mean the true definition, then yeah – as opposed to your completely uneducated retard definition of democracy, brought straight to you from Fox News’ rectum.

You admit China needs rule of law and transparency. How is that compatible with authoritarianism?

So you’re saying Singapore has no rule of law?

November 23, 2011 @ 4:48 am | Comment

@Cookie Monster –

“Try actually addressing his points instead of resorting to ad hominems”

Err . . you mean this nice little missive:

“You are the equivalent of a Holocaust denier.

But one day we are going to sweep down, and just really flay fuckers like you alive and rip the breasts off your whore mother and and fuck your sister with a shotgun up the pussy. And you are going to watch while I deal to your girlfriend with a claw hammer. And then smash your head to a pulp with a baseball bat you white motherfucker.

The real ‘world’ true ‘global’ opinion does not hate China or the Chinese. They hate your lot.

Rise of the Coloured Races.”

That’s the kind of stuff that Wayne Lo AKA Mongol Warrior likes to spray around,and doesn’t mind sending to people totally unbidden. So which of the points in his message excerpted above do you suggest I address first?

Cookie Monster,I really have to ask, as a British kid who loathed Sesame Street (in my own perfectly middle-class way I preferred Children’s BBC to ITV and Channel 4) – what’s with the name?

November 23, 2011 @ 4:59 am | Comment

FOARP: I don’g get you. I am not Mongol Warrior whoever the heck that guy is and as already mentioned I am not a Mongolian. So why don’t you just stop resorting to ad-hominems and join the debate, rather than just sit there claiming that anyone who holds a different point of view from you is a troll.

November 23, 2011 @ 5:24 am | Comment

“primarily available to US citizens, perhaps. It should be no surprise that the US government serves US citizens, first and foremost. ”

The point we were addressing is whether or not CHina would be (or is) a better international citizen than the US.

My point was however the US runs its own domestic affairs has nothing to do with how it would behave around the world – in fact its democracy did not stop it invading Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, etc.

So from the hard evidence it would appear that so-called ‘democracy’ does nothing in terms of reducing a regime’s penchant for interfering in all corners of the world and being a general global bully.

Not one person here would deny that the US is a global bully. China is obviously not.

November 23, 2011 @ 5:31 am | Comment

does not change that I can watch Youku and people in China can’t watch Youtube.

So what? All countries have different rules. Countries do not make rules to be consistent with other countries. They make rules to suit their own unique internal conditions.

Because cannabis is legal in Amsterdam, does that mean it should be in New York?

Because some places in the world have gay marriage, does that mean all countries in the world should follow suit?

China has laws which suit here current stage of economic and social development.
China has 80.252 hectares per 1,000 people. The US more than six times this amount.

If you live on a farm you can make as much noise as you like at night, let your dogs roam all over the place and defecate where they want.

If you live in an apartment there are a whole lot of things you can’t do and you have to abide by body corporate rules. You can’t play loud music after 10 pm perhaps and should not run the washing machine at 4 in the morning.

Population density has a lot to do with how places are run.

China only began industrialising after a century of invasion and civil war, 60 years ago. The countries which invaded China, are the ones which most eargerly attack her today.

The West has had more than a century and a half of industrial development, at a time when they ruled the world.

China was a victim of imperialism, the US was and still is an imperialist power.

When the US was a similar stage of economic development as China is now, her human rights situation was much worse than what is claimed for China by her worst detractors today.

November 23, 2011 @ 5:49 am | Comment

Wayne, I am all but 100 percent sure you are Mongol Warrior but will continue to give you the benefit of the doubt until you show your stripes, as you always do. Reasons for my belief: You wrote the same crap, almost word for word, when you were here last:

During Mao’s time China did better than all other directly comparable nations in improving the well-being of her people.

You called Bill Stimson “an out and out racist” – typical MW antagonism

You are using the name “Wayne,” which many in the China Blogosphere know is a common Mongol Warrior handle. If you’re not who I think you are then prove it by playing nice. I remain deeply suspicious, and would bet a small fortune that I’m right. So prove me wrong.

November 23, 2011 @ 9:24 am | Comment

You wrote the same crap, almost word for word, when you were here last:

During Mao’s time China did better than all other directly comparable nations in improving the well-being of her people

Well I did not write that but, look at the statement. Is it true or is it false?

Consider this:
http://tinyurl.com/7pys5r3

Note that decade 1966 to 1976 was not altogether diastrous.

November 23, 2011 @ 10:33 am | Comment

Raj
That’s the kind of stuff that Wayne Lo AKA Mongol Warrior likes to spray around

9/10. Whoever got that should dry up his tears and move along.

what’s with the name?

It’s good enough for me.

Richard
You are using the name “Wayne,” which many in the China Blogosphere know is a common Mongol Warrior handle.

Might not be the same Wayne.

November 23, 2011 @ 10:46 am | Comment

You called Bill Stimson “an out and out racist”

Well I may be wrong there because I don’t know the guy, but he did refer to people like me (a Han Chinese man) as a ‘chinaman’ – and in print.

November 23, 2011 @ 10:51 am | Comment

Making a dumb mistake doesn’t make someone “an out and out racist.” If he said Chinese people were scum, I’d call him a racist.

Cookie, in the history of this blog I’ve had only one commenter who was named Wayne, and the current Wayne is echoing exactly what the earlier Wayne said about Mao — exactly. That Wayne turned out, of course, to be Mongol Warrior. I’ve been managing this blog for close to 9 years, and I know how my trolls operate.

November 23, 2011 @ 11:52 am | Comment

aking a dumb mistake doesn’t make someone “an out and out racist.”

Agree 100%. That is why I said I may have been wrong to label him as such.

So he made a ‘dumb’ mistake. But by not removing the offending article or at least changing the wording he continues to make that dumb mistake. In fact he wrote it in 2005. It is still there now. So it becomes something more than just a dumb mistake.

http://www.billstimson.com/writing/china%27s_leader_is_not_the_man.htm

“Cookie, in the history of this blog I’ve had only one commenter who was named Wayne”
Now you have two.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:06 pm | Comment

“The people have no appetite for imperialism and before any troll mentions Tibet or why China is so big, I would tell them to go in for some history lessons.”

We did. Imperialism was the answer. Of course, depends who you believe as a teacher….I dare say the CCP has their version.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:09 pm | Comment

“Wayne,” we’ll see. You’ve also copied MW’s stanadard operating procedure of taking over the comments, and using his language and techniques. And now you’ve doubled down on Bill Stimson, a friend of mine who doesn’t have a racist bone in his body, even if he shouldn’t have used an old imperialist term. I’m not sure why I’m letting you stay. I’m just a nice guy. But we all know what lies ahead.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:17 pm | Comment

“We did. Imperialism was the answer.”

Funny thing is every single country in the world recognises Tibet as a legitimate part of China, including all Western countries.

What’s more the United States for one, recognised Tibet as China, explicitly in 1943, a full seven years before the so-called 1950 ‘invasion’.

And if you have a look at the Republic of China map, you will see that the Taiwan government considers not only Tibet as part of China, but all of Mongolia as well. I have no issue with that.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:17 pm | Comment

US position on Tibet:

The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the view of the entire international community, including all China’s neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover, U.S. acceptance of China’s claim of sovereignty over Tibet predates the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In 1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had “at no time raised (a) question” over Chinese claims to Tibet. Because we do not recognize Tibet as an independent state, the United States does not conduct diplomatic relations with the representatives of Tibetans in exile.”

http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bureaus/eap/950907WiedemannTibet.html

November 23, 2011 @ 12:21 pm | Comment

Foarp, this was my favorite Mongol Warrior/Wayne/Mark Lau email after I mentioned in a comment I lost family in the Holocaust:

From: Mark Lau
Fucking hook nose….fucking oven dodger – you and your fucking family –you need to be skewered on the end of someones bayonet —you fucking flea ridden greasy hook nose!!!!! Fucking juden lice…..go get a delousing!!!!!! hahahahahahahhahaa

He starts off being solicitous and eager to engage, and then suddenly his evil starts to percolate through. Wayne, prove me wrong. Please.

November 23, 2011 @ 12:50 pm | Comment

To 60:
“When you derive most of your power from theft”
—what have they “stolen”, pray tell?

“Except China has a long history of not really treating foreigners (from neutral and allied states) worse than Chinese.”
—so the CCP is benevolent to outsiders when she can be unusually cruel to her own “family”, is that it? Yeah, sure, that’s not evil at all. Not to mention that the CCP has never been in a similar position of relative international strength before. So her past track record is not very relevant. And certainly, the prior track record of Chinese history in its entirety is also not that relevant, because this is CCP China we’re talking about, not just generic China.

To 61:
by grade-school, I would mean the definition taken from a dictionary, which sadly is your level of sophistication. When applied in the real world, it is slightly more complicated than that, my dear pup. Here’s a challenge for you: find me a democracy that is voting/majority rule alone, without all the other necessary accoutrements, and we’ll see how well that works. Probably not well. So why confine yourself to such a model for China? It’s as though you want democracy to fail in China or something…oh, what am I saying, of course you do!

“So you’re saying Singapore has no rule of law?”
—no. Nor is Singapore authoritarian like China. And Singapore may be moving further and further away from that still, given results of the most recent election. And more importantly, China under the CCP certainly is no Singapore.

November 23, 2011 @ 1:24 pm | Comment

To Wayne 64:
“So from the hard evidence it would appear that so-called ‘democracy’ does nothing in terms of reducing a regime’s penchant for interfering in all corners of the world and being a general global bully.”
—OK, I see what you’re saying. And I would agree with that assessment. There is nothing inherent in democracy that stipulates how such a nation conducts international affairs. But that works both ways. There is no requirement that China in the form of a democracy behave in a manner akin to the US on the international stage, if that is what bothers you. Having misgivings about US foreign policy does not logically lead to disavowing democracy as a system of governance for China.

To 65:
“They make rules to suit their own unique internal conditions.”
—if by “they” you mean the CCP, that is correct. What’s missing from the rules the CCP institutes is input from Chinese people. Do you think Chinese people would choose to not have access to information? Do you think Chinese people would opt for censorship, if given an alternative? Those “unique internal conditions” are only unique because they are imposed by the CCP, not because they’re uniquely vital to Chinese people.

Your other examples work the same way. If NEw Yorkers want to legalize cannabis like Amsterdamers (?), they can. If Californians want to legalize gay marriage, they vote for it in a referendum. But under the CCP, Chinese people have no such choice. And that is a huge and fundamental difference.

“Population density has a lot to do with how places are run.”
—true to a point. But not to the point of justifying authoritarianism.

November 23, 2011 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

“Wayne, prove me wrong. Please.”

Sorry wasn’t me.

Anyway how on earth could someone who more or less supports the legacy of the Chinese revolution and the ideology it was based upon, if not necessarily its current generation of leaders, be anti-semitic?

November 23, 2011 @ 2:00 pm | Comment

“Population density has a lot to do with how places are run.”
—true to a point. But not to the point of justifying authoritarianism.

Not true. What happens in cases of national emergency, such as natural disaster or war, in the US or anywhere else in the Western world? A curfew. Troops on the street. Rationing. Suspension of elections.

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who once said, “Necessity Knows No Law”

November 23, 2011 @ 2:02 pm | Comment

Wayne, doesn’t change the facts that it’s still imperialism. The world used to recognise all those pink bits on the map as parts of the British Empire. Did that make it less imperialism? The world used to recognise that Germany stretched from the Maas to the Memel – does it now? Most of the world recognises Israel within it’s current borders and some countries do not – who is right?

The geopolitics of the day do not reflect some given right to ownership of a patch of land. Name one country that accepts Mongolia as a part of China, despite Chinese claims.

Should Tibet gains independence, then all countries will recognise it as such. Geopolitics is such a fickle thing….

Poor argument from you which doesn’t make China’s imperialism any less.

November 23, 2011 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

Wake up people. You should never respond to posters with names like Wayne, Gary Bruce or Julian. They are either retards or poison pen types.

And if there is one nationality which holds the Han in total contempt, it is Mongolians both north and south of the 1922 border.

November 23, 2011 @ 5:27 pm | Comment

To Wayne 80:
“What happens in cases of national emergency, such as natural disaster or war, in the US or anywhere else in the Western world? A curfew. Troops on the street. Rationing. Suspension of elections.”
—are you trying to tell me that China under the CCP has been in a state of emergency since day 1, for the last 62 years? Yes, curfews happen; martial law happens. And they happen in extraordinary situations. If it’s been happening daily for 62 years, that is hardly extraordinary; it would be downright mundane. Also, you can only “suspend” elections when you’ve previously had them. CCP China doesn’t really have that problem. I hope you have a better justification for CCP China’s ongoing authoritarianism than “it’s an ongoing state of emergency”.

Care to address the other things I mentioned in #78?

November 24, 2011 @ 12:58 am | Comment

Mike Goldthorpe
Imperialism was the answer.

Yep – the imperialism of Tibetans, Mongols and Manchus who threw their kingdoms at the Han. You can’t blame the Han for simply taking what’s forced on them and making it 10000x better :)

Name one country that accepts Mongolia as a part of China

Name one country that accepts the ROC as legitimate successor to the Qing. Asking the opinion of historically illiterate scum governments doesn’t mean much.

November 24, 2011 @ 3:17 am | Comment

King Tubby
And if there is one nationality which holds the Han in total contempt, it is Mongolians both north and south of the 1922 border.

You mean the Mongolian neo-Nazis? When baby-killing, illiterate, drunken savages hold contempt for you it says quite a lot about your character.

November 24, 2011 @ 3:54 am | Comment

“Name one country that accepts the ROC as legitimate successor to the Qing. Asking the opinion of historically illiterate scum governments doesn’t mean much.”

Exactly.

As to the other stuff you mention, barely worth reading, never mind answering.

November 24, 2011 @ 4:47 am | Comment

Cookie Monster

I recall the article and the photo but, having a sense of decorum, was instead thinking of the very different ways Han and Mongolian folk view and treat the environment.

Not content with practicing cultural genocide in Inner Mongolia, your confreres are trashing the environment just like you do in the Middle Kingdom. Ditto in Laos. Han lebenscraum at work.

And I could go on in this vein, but…..

Obviously, you have never spent time talking to any Mongolian people, since your characterisation is way off and distinctly Nazi-like.

And I will jeer from the peanut gallery when your Nuremberg moment comes.

November 24, 2011 @ 5:45 am | Comment

Having misgivings about US foreign policy does not logically lead to disavowing democracy as a system of governance for China.

If you read the post it was in response to OtherLisa, who seemed to imply the way things worked internally for China made her a possibly more dangerous power on the world stage than the US. I said otherwise.

But you, as usual twist it into something else.

As for ‘democracy’ in a Western sense, I don’t know why China has to adopt similar system. What is important is a system that represents the interests of the majority of people, in fact all people, and respects the rights of all people. Such a system does not come down to simply ticking a box once every 4 years to select tweedle dum or tweedle dee. That means virtucally nothing. It is simply something that happens in the West to suck in the people there to make them believe they really control things. They don’t. As someone said, in the West, it is the likes of Goldman Sachs who controls things. The big corporations control things. The media is totally controlled. You think just because you allowed to post on a blog, check democrat or republican that you someone live in a country where the system works for the interests of the broad masses of people that you really have choice? The only reason why things perhaps are tolerable in the US is your ruling class controls enough of the world, terrifies enough of the world into doing her bidding, controls most of its resources that they can chuck a few off-cuts of meat, a few crumbs of bread at you, and that is enough to provide a livable lifestyle. And then you think —- what an awesome system we have. Come on.

Now you answer me this. Do you think that if China brought in a democracy people would really have increased control over their lives. Would objectively be better off?

Do you think the average Indian dalit, who is most ikely illiterate (China’s literacy rate is well over 90%, Indias under 60%), the average Indian bonded labourer has any more say in how India is run say, than the average Chinese peasant simply because India happnens to have a system of democracy that you tirelessly plug for?

Do you think that all the problems China undeniably has are simply because she does not happen to have the US system? Land evictions, riots, injustice? Or are they common to all developing countries, but the situation in CHina is at least better than the same for almost all other developing countries – including all Western countries when those same Western countries were at a similar stage of economic and social development that China is now? (in fact one can’t really draw a direct analogy – when Western societies were more or less at China’s current stage – they ruled over half the world and had the resources of the world and the labour of the world to exploit. China does not).

November 24, 2011 @ 5:56 am | Comment

If my reading of history is correct, the Mongols originated somewhere up north near Lake Baikal. And Han people have always lived in the region which is now Inner Mongolia, and a lot of what is now Mongolia, earlier than the Mongolians. The Mongols of course swept down defeated the Jin dynasty and decimated a lot of the population.

The fact is Han are more indigenous to the area than Mongolians. That is simple historical truth Mr Tubb.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:05 am | Comment

Wrong tense, Wayne. Were indigenous, not are.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:07 am | Comment

Mike Goldthorpe
barely worth reading, never mind answering.

I accept your defeat.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:36 am | Comment

King Tubby
was instead thinking of the very different ways Han and Mongolian folk view and treat the environment.

Oh yes, Ulaanbataar, that pristine gem of environmentalism? Not really, it’s black with coal smoke and worse then Beijing if I’m not mistaken. The Han have not only preserved environments but preserved ethnic groups. At any time after the immediate fall of the Yuan and before the mid 1600s the Chinese could have exterminated the Mongols in retaliation for their centuries of atrocities, but they didn’t.

That’s the difference between Chinese and Europeans, or Chinese and Mongols.

Obviously, you have never spent time talking to any Mongolian people, since your characterisation is way off and distinctly Nazi-like.

So now you defend neo-Nazis, or do you just have garbage reading comprehension? I think it’s both. Hilarious, a white guy telling a non-white they’re “Nazi-like”. Sorry, but only your race is capable of things like the Holocaust, your laughable corporate media myths about Mao aside.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:41 am | Comment

Mike Goldthorpe
Wrong tense, Wayne. Were indigenous, not are.

We could certainly make you eat your words and make the Mongols “were indigenous” as they did the innocent Chinese or Tangut farmers that used to live there. The CCP could also stop applying the one-child policy on Hans only and rescind ALL benefits they extended to the Mongols.

But we’re nothing like your kind. You DO realize that Inner Mongolia was settled as part of Manchu policy and not Chinese policy, correct? Oh right, you didn’t – you don’t know jack about history.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:43 am | Comment

are you trying to tell me that China under the CCP has been in a state of emergency since day 1, for the last 62 years? Yes, curfews happen; martial law happens. And they happen in extraordinary situations.

Sheesh….you do have a rather literal minded take on things don’t you?

I was simply using the national emergency thing as an analogy.

A country which is extremely poor, with a large population, just come out of a century of war and invasion, with almost zero-industrial base, may require a little ‘authoritarianism’ to get the ball rolling. You would not rule such a country in the same way as a place like a developed country.

The West was the same when they were developing. In fact there was ZERO democracy for the Indians, Africans, and Asians they ruled, when the Western nations developed their respective countries.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:44 am | Comment

At any time after the immediate fall of the Yuan and before the mid 1600s the Chinese could have exterminated the Mongols in retaliation for their centuries of atrocities, but they didn’t.

Similar with the case after WWII. Han people not only did not massacre the remaining Japanese civilians, but actually took in Japanese children and raised them as their own.

It is Western Europeans who are the most exterminatory people in history. Not Han Chinese. In fact minorities are encouraged to breed and flourish, and huge amounts of money spent to maintain their cultures and folkways.

If the Han were Anglo Saxons, the Tibetans and Uighurs and Mongolians would well have simply disappeared by now.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:51 am | Comment

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-air-pollution-ulaanbaatar-mongolia-residents.html

Oh hey, but the evil Chinese are the only ones who pollute. Not the first time I’ve caught Tubby Boy pulling nonsense out of his ass. I’m sure your imaginary Mongolian friends dislike Ulaanbaatar’s pollution.

November 24, 2011 @ 6:52 am | Comment

Come on, guys. Lets restrict the history lessons to the 20th century.

However, if you are going to stay in your time tunnel, I strongly recommend that you do a bit of reading on Mongolian history, since it is they who opened up the Great Silk Road(s) to the West for the benefit of Han traders.

On the subject of ethnic groups: window dressing in ethnic attire for the Peoples Consultative whatever it is called. Recall those ethnic???? children at the Games 08.

Beijings ethnic policy is a stalking horse for economic/minerals exploitation and population dilution.

November 24, 2011 @ 7:06 am | Comment

To 88:
“What is important is a system that represents the interests of the majority of people, in fact all people, and respects the rights of all people.”
—indeed. How’s that going with the CCP?

Now, I wrote this in #59:”primarily available to US citizens, perhaps. It should be no surprise that the US government serves US citizens, first and foremost”
In response to that exact line, you wrote this in #64:”So from the hard evidence it would appear that so-called ‘democracy’ does nothing in terms of reducing a regime’s penchant for interfering in all corners of the world and being a general global bully.”
To which I responded thusly in #78:”Having misgivings about US foreign policy does not logically lead to disavowing democracy as a system of governance for China.”
Now you’re trying to say you were responding to Lisa, and I “twisted” your words? Give me a break, dude. It’s right there in black and white. If you don’t have an answer, just say so, rather than this obfuscation business that some people like to do.

And then more of the kool-aid fuelled craze that folks like my little puppy there like to trot out on a daily basis. Are you guys now drinking from the same bowl? And after all that, you still haven’t responded to my point, which is that distaste for US foreign policy doesn’t mean Chinese people in China should forego democracy.

“Do you think that if China brought in a democracy people would really have increased control over their lives. Would objectively be better off?”
—day to day lives? Absolutely. And instantly. Objectively better off? That would depend on the metrics you choose to measure, and the time frame you choose to measure it in. But their lives are improving not because of authoritarianism, but because of capitalism. Keep the market system, and they will continue to improve.

“Do you think the average Indian dalit, who is most ikely illiterate (China’s literacy rate is well over 90%, Indias under 60%), the average Indian bonded labourer has any more say in how India is run say, than the average Chinese peasant ”
—more “say” in what?

As for your last paragraph, again, there is no need for China to adopt a US system. In fact, there is no need to adopt any system. Chinese people can and should have democracy in a way that they see fit. Saying that the US system would be bad for China says nothing at all about China as a potential democracy.

November 24, 2011 @ 7:21 am | Comment

King Tubby
since it is they who opened up the Great Silk Road(s) to the West for the benefit of Han traders.

Wrong. It was China that opened up the Silk Road, the chaos the Mongols created stopped China from continuing its support. Then after the collapse of order they eventually restored it after killing tens of millions of civilians.

SK Cheung
day to day lives? Absolutely. And instantly.

No, they wouldn’t. Don’t make me laugh. No one that earns $3,000 a year has any significant control over his own life in a democracy. If China became a “democracy” tomorrow they would instantly be taken by CCP influence and state-run corporations. So not only is democracy stupid and evil, it’s pointless.

Saying that the US system would be bad for China says nothing at all about China as a potential democracy.

The US system is bad. The Haitian system is bad. The Indian system is bad. The Athenian system was bad. And now increasingly the German, Italian, French, Spanish and Irish systems are showing failure.

And that’s the government you want to recommend?

November 24, 2011 @ 7:51 am | Comment

King Tubby
Beijings ethnic policy is a stalking horse for economic/minerals exploitation and population dilution.

You’re thinking of the West. If “Beijing” wanted economic/minerals exploitation and population dilution, they would have done it thousands of years ago. Don’t try to pad the blood on your hands off on the CCP.

November 24, 2011 @ 7:53 am | Comment

This is sad and hilarious at the same time. I shake my head, I really do.

November 24, 2011 @ 8:17 am | Comment

Indeed, Cheungsie is sad and hilarious at the same time. Amusing retardation combined with a tragic misunderstanding of the world outside his mother’s basement.

November 24, 2011 @ 8:24 am | Comment

I shake my head, I really do.

Typical anglo-saxon self-righteous response. When they lose the argument they ‘shake their head’ and don’t respond. By shaking their head they try and claim the moral high ground because they possess some truth that is so obvious that others can’t get it.

I’ve seen that from white people time and time again.

November 24, 2011 @ 8:33 am | Comment

”primarily available to US citizens, perhaps. It should be no surprise that the US government serves US citizens, first and foremost”
In response to that exact line, you wrote this in #64:”So from the hard evidence it would appear that so-called ‘democracy’ does nothing in terms of reducing a regime’s penchant for interfering in all corners of the world and being a general global bully.”
To which I responded thusly in #78:”Having misgivings about US foreign policy does not logically lead to disavowing democracy as a system of governance for China.”

Because A does not lead to B (undesirable outcome)it abviously does not follow that because of B we should not have A. Nor does it follow that B causes A.

So your last statement in responding to me is not really a response because it responds to something I never said nor implied. I have misgivings about your so called ‘democracy’ for other reasons which I have outlined above.

November 24, 2011 @ 8:37 am | Comment

“Nor does it follow that B causes A”. should have been “nor does it follow that B is causally linked to A”

November 24, 2011 @ 8:40 am | Comment

I don’t think Lisa is Anglo-Saxon, but Italian if I remember correctly.

November 24, 2011 @ 10:34 am | Comment

Wayne
If the Han were Anglo Saxons, the Tibetans and Uighurs and Mongolians would well have simply disappeared by now.

Look, you have a point here, but don’t go and mix me up with all those Anglo-Saxons above, okay.

To the point:
Obviously, you have not encountered the growing body of historical scholarship which documents the very progressive role the Mongolian empire played in facilitating East-West trade. Okay, those who failed to immediately capitulate experienced a bit of Genghis Khan tough love, but that was the standard of the day.

November 24, 2011 @ 10:48 am | Comment

Other Lisa – I’m with you there (and mine is an Italo-Austro-Anglo-Danish head to boot). Such utter drivel from our Chinese counterparts here really makes me think China will never amount to much.

November 24, 2011 @ 11:54 am | Comment

uch utter drivel from our Chinese counterparts here really makes me think China will never amount to much.

Good. Then you should not have too much to worry about then eh?

Just mind your own business. That’s all.

November 24, 2011 @ 12:06 pm | Comment

King Tubby
Look, you have a point here, but don’t go and mix me up with all those Anglo-Saxons above, okay.

They’d be even luckier if the Han were like Germans, right? Or maybe Romans, who enslaved just about 30-50% of every population they encountered?

Obviously, you have not encountered the growing body of historical scholarship which documents the very progressive role the Mongolian empire played in facilitating East-West trade.

China facilitated “East-West trade” for millennia before the Mongols came along. The whole reason why the Han dug in in Xinjiang after driving out the Huns was so they could trade with various Central Asian kingdoms, India, Persia and whichever Arab Caliphate was in power at the time. The Mongols helped expand this network by pretty much killing everyone in between.

Their actions are understandable given how tough Mongolia can be to live in (especially then) but it’s a stretch to say they were in any way benevolent.

November 24, 2011 @ 12:07 pm | Comment

Today may be my worst troll infestation ever. Should I just close all the threads?

November 24, 2011 @ 12:36 pm | Comment

To Wayne 94:
“you do have a rather literal minded take on things don’t you?”
—I have no interest in guessing what you think. So if you don’t flesh out your analogy, don’t complain about it after the fact. Next time, just make a better or more relevant analogy. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Not that complicated.

“may require a little ‘authoritarianism’ to get the ball rolling. You would not rule such a country in the same way as a place like a developed country.”
—fine. China’s ball is rolling. She’s had a “little” 62 year stretch of authoritarianism and 30 years where things have actually been looking up. We’re not talking about whether China should’ve had democracy in 1949, or 1980. We’re talking about (realistically) some point in the future. Hopefully not too distant future.

To doggie #99:
“No one that earns $3,000 a year has any significant control over his own life in a democracy.”
—in the US, no. In China, better, because the comparative bar is lower. Though of course we know about the income gap and wealth gap, don’t we.

“If China became a “democracy” tomorrow they would instantly be taken by CCP influence and state-run corporations.”
—what makes you think a democratic CHina still has any uses for the vestiges of the CCP? How would they be “taken” by SOE’s? Heck, what makes you think they’d still be SOEs?

“And that’s the government you want to recommend?”
—man, if I had a nickel for every time you actually read, I’d be penniless. I’m not recommending the US government, or the Athenian government. I’d like to see that Chinese people get the government of their own choosing, with a system of governance of their own choosing. You think they need to be told precisely what to do, by the CCP. That, my good four-legged friend, is the difference.

To Wayne 104:
for fear of “misunderstanding” what you’re thinking, you’re going to have to express your argument in a way that doesn’t involve unassigned variables. What misgivings have you outlined about democracy where, besides your distaste for US foreign policy?

November 24, 2011 @ 2:11 pm | Comment

Richard, I had intended to add some thoughts about the UC-Davis video from a Law Enforcement standpoint – but it appears this comment thread has gone awry.

November 24, 2011 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

Goju, “awry” is an understatement. I apologize. I’ve been too busy to watch, except to put in an occasional comment lambasting my trolls. I am considering doing something to stop it, but I don’t want this forum to be only Euramerican.

November 25, 2011 @ 12:17 am | Comment

Thread closed. Please use the open thread above to say anything left unsaid.

November 25, 2011 @ 12:32 am | Comment

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