Xinjiang Internet reforming and opening up?

According to our usual source out west, it just might be:

As of midnight last Friday, February 5th, it was announced that 27 more “outside Xinjiang” websites have been opened in addition to the four sites that were already accessible. After spending this past weekend searching over all these sites I can tell you that progress has been made, although each of them loads quite slowly. What’s more…one of them doesn’t load at all (the China Rail site received a “Connection Interrupted”)….

A Look at What’s New

The sites can be divided into about 9 different categories and although a few of them offer alternative languages like English, none of them represents a foreign-based business. I’ve categorized them as follows:

* 7 News Sites (including China Daily and CCTV)
* 4 Travel Sites (including Ctrip and Air China)
* 3 Business & Finance Sites
* 3 Telecom Sites (all three major Chinese carriers)
* 2 Shopping Sites (including Taobao, China’s version of eBay)
* 2 Computer Service Sites (so you can update your anti-virus)
* 2 Gaming Sites (more flash games…yippee)
* 2 Education Sites (study materials for students and help for teachers)
* 1 Fashion Site

Unlike Sina and Sohu (which underwent heavy censorship), each of these sites when viewed in Xinjiang seems to match those viewed outside. However, as is the rule in Xinjiang for now, all email and forum capabilities are disabled.

(Emphasis added.) What’s odder than the government announcing the formal unblocking of sites are the sites that still aren’t available, such as the central government’s.

The tone of the post is decidedly pessimistic. Xinjiang’s Internet is still tightly controlled, and there is no expectation of an open Internet (i.e., an Internet that’s as open as in the other side of the country) any time soon, if ever.

Right now the difference between internet in Xinjiang and the rest of China is determined by the way we describe the censorship. Throughout most of China people explain the Great Firewall by the number of sites which have been blocked; in Xinjiang we count how many sites have been unblocked. That’s a huge difference.

My sympathies.

I may head back to China for a quick visit, and that’s always the one thing I dread most – getting used to the censorship. I know, I know, Witopia. I’m definitely installing it before I leave.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 149 Comments

Talking of the Republic of China
http://www.changjiangunlimited.com/2010/10-0217-FdW.jpg

February 19, 2010 @ 7:35 am | Comment

@Maitreya

The PRC remembers what happened in Sichuan with shoddy construction; and is certainly not going to let that happen again.

Really? If they didn’t want the Sichuan tragedy to happen again, why did they do this?

“Fury at jail for quake activist”
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=13&art_id=94377&sid=27014966&con_type=3&d_str=20100210&sear_year=2010

“China detains teacher for earthquake photos”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/31/china.chinaearthquake

“China Presses Hush Money on Grieving Parents ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/world/asia/24quake.html?_r=1

I am sure your parents would have taught you from young that owning up to your mistakes or saying “sorry” is the courageous first step to rectifying them.

Instead, we see CCP officials launching violent reprisals against those who is trying to investigate the truth. Parents, who lost their only child, need to see justice done.

Any logical person will not be able to see how such despicable actions is a sign of “certainly not going to let that happen again.”

February 19, 2010 @ 10:39 am | Comment

@sp

“Really? If they didn’t want the Sichuan tragedy to happen again, why did they do this?”
“Any logical person will not be able to see how such despicable actions is a sign of “certainly not going to let that happen again.”

I see that you are making me repeat the same things over and over again. Read my previous post carefully, where I say,

“That’s another difference between India and China. China may not publicly admit its mistakes, but later takes many steps to solve it. India, on the other hands admits its mistake (”I hang my head in shame” the Indian PM said referring to the 1984 riots) but the court cases are still dragging on after 25 years and it is still being discussed in Parliament. Out of 2,733 officially admitted murders, only nine cases led to convictions. Just over 20 accused have been convicted in 25 years – a conviction rate of less than 1%. Hence, it doesn’t learn from them for the most part.”

@ Mike Goldthorpe

“Now, you had said earlier that these houses were in an earthquale zone. How old were these houses? As I read, some were centuries old. Surely then, they would have felt a few “minor earhtquakes” in their life. And, as can be seen, they withstood them.

Simply because they might have withstood those earthquakes earlier (I don’t know whether they did or didn’t), but that is no reason to let people live in them. Can you guarantee that they will withstand a new earthquake? I’ve already given you examples of other earthquakes in that area.

“Your sentence therefore doesn’t stack up to reality and this, I am afraid, throws a lot of your posts into doubt.”

First – That’s why you think. You are more than welcome to verify the accuracy of any of my statements. Try doing that instead of throwing such immature remarks around.

Second – When you made the ridiculous statement about the major cause of riots being corruption (and I corrected you), then what? Did I say that that ‘throws a lot of your posts into doubt’, instead of showing you the evidence for it?

I Repeat –
God or Religion or Culture is not going to save the people when an earthquake strikes – the government is, and does.

Also – If the PRC wanted to wipe minorities out, a very simple and easy way could have been to impose the one child policy on them too. Then why don’t they do it?

In any case, its not as i, as sp said, the PRC has abruptly bulldozed their way in. Timetables have been announced and people have been given time and compensation to leave.

“ROC has a greater claim to One China than the PRC….Matty is wrong”

First – Then I am afraid that all governments of this world (except 23) are wrong too; as well as the UN for not recognizing Taiwan as the sole representative of the whole of China. (If the PRC wasn’t communist, would the situation have been different?) Or are they simply afraid of the PRC?
Also, the nationalists LOST the civil war. And that’s a fact.

Second – Your argument that “the Republic of China ruled both, the Communist Party of China has only ever ruled the mainland”, is wrong. Because, for example the whole of India has never been under one administration until the British colonized it. Now, after the British left, would you say that the country should be divided into the same Kingdoms and Princely states that prevailed BEFORE the British arrived.

IN ANY CASE, THAT IS OFF-TOPIC. ALL I SAID ORIGINALLY WAS THAT IT WOULD BE WRONG TO CALL EITHER CLAIM RIDICULOUS , AS sp DID.

@sp

WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING NEEDLESSLY OVER MINOR TOPICS; AND AS I SAID EARLIER, we AGREE IN SPIRIT IF NOT THE LETTER.

As for the evidence, I have already said that there are arguments on both sides.
I think that a major part of the western media shows some biased tendencies, which I intend to explore on my blog.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT CHINA IS DOING ENOUGH FOR ITS MINORITIES. I HAD ARGUED IN MY BLOGPOST WAS THAT CHINA IS MORE FOR ITS MINORITIES THAN INDIA IS.
MUCH MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE, AS I SAID EARLIER.

– Maitreya

February 19, 2010 @ 12:57 pm | Comment

@sp

“I am sure your parents would have taught you from young that owning up to your mistakes or saying “sorry” is the courageous first step to rectifying them.”

Yes, my parents have taught me that, and I don’t need your permission to say it. But we are talking about the CCP here, not me or you.
My parents have also taught me something else – being civil and respecting others’ right to have an opinion.
I see that you are not being quite civil in your comments and using aggressive phrases; often getting personal. Well, while I can do that too – I don’t want to stoop to your level. The fact remains that just because a reply is strongly worded doesn’t make it right . It just provides a false and misplaced sense of superiority. And if I am to have a sense of superiority, I would rather that it be right and correctly placed, unlike yours.

– Maitreya

February 19, 2010 @ 1:19 pm | Comment

@sp2
If all my district used to be all Uighurs and now it becomes a Han-majority district, will it really be all the same? Heard of cultural shock? Not funny when you have been reduced to a minority group when you used to be the majority.

Ah, a Han majority in Eastern Xinjiang. It’ll be like 200 BC again.

The “Uighur”, or so they call themselves, can go back to their ancestral homelands in Eastern Europe and Southern Siberia if they don’t like it.

February 19, 2010 @ 3:05 pm | Comment

“Massive immigration of Han Chinese, encouraged into the area by financial incentives, mean that slowly but surely the Uighurs are becoming a minority in their own land.

China is notorious for not being understanding of other cultures. Ethnic minorities have equal rights here but only on paper. Many Han Chinese treat their Uighur brethren with thinly disguised contempt and racist arrogance.”

And many Germans have been known to be off on their assessments of other races. The spirit of Goebbels live on.

China is far, far more understanding of other cultures than “the West”. They have thousands of years of experience. The problem is that they have too much experience, and thus negative but realistic assessments are possible for a select few.

February 19, 2010 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

Are you suggesting that the CCP WANTS or DOESN’T CARE if citizens die in an earthquake?

February 19, 2010 @ 3:24 pm | Comment

Its the evidence of THIS statement that I was asking. Your statement about the PRC official jargon about improving standards in Tibet is neither here nor there.

You choose to push the evidence aside. In what way does the MFA statement not reflect that kind of racialist, paternalistic attitude?

what about Taiwan’s claim to all of China? You’ve still not answered my question.

Oh gosh. If Taiwan gave up that “ridiculous” claim tomorrow, the 1000 missiles PLA aimed at Taiwan will be fired off. In other words, Taiwan is forced to uphold that claim, not because it was willing, but the PRC’s reunificationist stance forced it to maintain that “ridiculous” claim to all of China. Can you please pick up some books on cross-straits affairs? When pro-independence president Chen Shui Bian moved to cease the functions of the “National Reunification Council”, the PRC issued a stern warning to Taipei. Today’s Taiwan is no longer the same Taiwan under Chiang Kai-shek. Taipei itself has no interest to maintain its claim to all of China, the PRC’s threat to invade forced to maintain such claim. Ignorance is such a annoying affair at times.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Unification_Council

I said that happiness is a difficult thing to measure directly. That’s why we have to make the best use of the (sometimes indirect) data available.

This is unsatisfactory answer. Measuring something you didn’t even define. That’s so laughable. Realize that if you can say others’ answers are “unsatisfactory”, others can do the same to you too.

Comment 27 was certainly a less than satisfactory answer.

Which part of it is unsatisfactory? Anyway, you are not my boss, why should i satisfy you?

Now you are effectively dodging the question. What if some residents do not listen to your persuasion and ‘tact’? – is the point that I had raised earlier. You are not reading carefully. Do they still have the right to stay in their shoddy houses in a earthquake high risk zone? If an earthquake occurs and they die – what happens then?

Dodge the question? If they refuse to move, then they have to bear the consequences for the choices they made. All we can do is to persuade them. You haven’t even try, how do you know? Unless you aren’t even interested in engaging the locals. I am confident and optimistic about trust-building with the locals and persuading them, i am not as pessimistic and cynical as you.

What about Women’s rights then?

I am all for women’s rights. But if you choose ignore that the Muslim community is one that has to be handled with extreme sensitivity, its your problem. Look at Salman Rushdie and the fatwa that was issued to kill him by Khomeini (it still stands ). If you want to stir shit onto yourself by messing with the community in the wrong way, please go ahead.

OK. So you want the Tibetan nomads to be nomads all there lives

My complete quote was “Some may really want to go the cities, get material goods, have modern education, that’s a better life for them, so let them go. Others may just want to live and die in their traditional mode of life, let them be.”

You deliberately drop the preceding statement in bold to build a strawman argument around it. If you are not being dishonest, deceitful and outright despicable, what are you really? Are you so desperate that you are resorting to such cheap tricks?

There is evidence on both sides out there. You will agree that it is in no way inappropriate to ask for evidence of any statements which you make.

Haha, you challenge me openly by saying “People keep saying that the government ‘encourages Han migration’ into the region. Without citing any evidence for it or any government policy.” Now you are bombarded with it, you are trying to save your grace. “Evidence on both sides”? What’s your evidence that proves that the Chinese government DOES NOT encourage Han migration? We are all waiting for your reply.

By the way, where is the evidence for “This was essentially Soviet policy too.”?

Looks like your own demand for evidence is catching up on you.

IN CONCLUSION, I THINK THAT, AS I SAID EARLIER, WE ARE ON FUNDAMENTAL AGREEMENT ON MANY ISSUES AND AGREE IN SPIRIT IF NOT THE LETTER.

Oh please. It’s your own wishful thinking. How can i agree fundamentally with a a dishonest person who accused me of concluding Friedman a fool when i have not? I am still waiting for you to quote me where i conclude Friedman was a fool. If not, issue an apology. Otherwise, this will be my last post to you.

February 19, 2010 @ 9:34 pm | Comment

If the PRC wanted to wipe minorities out, a very simple and easy way could have been to impose the one child policy on them too. Then why don’t they do it?

When you already made Lhasa and Urumqi Han-majority cities with massive migration, why bother doing something that the “West” can use to accuse you of outright genocide? Why invite bad PR when you already attained your goals of Sinicization through assimilation?

February 19, 2010 @ 9:44 pm | Comment

“Now, the son wants to study and become an engineer, scientist etc. What happens then? ”

Now, if the son wants to stay with his father as a nomad, do you take him away with force in order to make him an engineer, scientist?

My way will be: tell the parents about the opportunities out there. Tell them the benefits of education. If after much efforts, they chose to ignore you, let them be. Heard of “you can bring the horse to the river but you can’t force it to drink’? My job is to bring the horse to the river, i won’t force it to drink. I can’t say the same about you.

February 19, 2010 @ 9:51 pm | Comment

You logic indicates that the PRC simply chooses the lesser of two evils by censoring the internet so that people don’t come to know about Tianenmen etc. and revolt!

Haha. That’s the only kind of counter-argument you are capable of? There is no “lesser” evil in the above, it is EVIL in its entirety because the government, which is a dictatorship that had ordered troops to fire on its own people, has a vested self-interest to whitewash its own atrocities and hope that its people will forget its crimes. Drawing such insensitive “analogy” is downright disrespectful to those who perished under the naked violence of the CCP.

February 19, 2010 @ 10:02 pm | Comment

@ Mike Goldthorpe

“Now, you had said earlier that these houses were in an earthquale zone. How old were these houses? As I read, some were centuries old. Surely then, they would have felt a few “minor earhtquakes” in their life. And, as can be seen, they withstood them.

Simply because they might have withstood those earthquakes earlier (I don’t know whether they did or didn’t), but that is no reason to let people live in them. Can you guarantee that they will withstand a new earthquake? I’ve already given you examples of other earthquakes in that area.

“Your sentence therefore doesn’t stack up to reality and this, I am afraid, throws a lot of your posts into doubt.”

First – That’s what you think. You are more than welcome to verify the accuracy of any of my statements. Try doing that instead of throwing such immature remarks around.

Second – When you made the ridiculous statement about the major cause of riots being corruption (and I corrected you), then what? Did I say that that ‘throws a lot of your posts into doubt’, instead of showing you the evidence for it?

I Repeat –
God or Religion or Culture is not going to save the people when an earthquake strikes – the government is, and does.

Also – If the PRC wanted to wipe minorities out, a very simple and easy way could have been to impose the one child policy on them too. Then why don’t they do it?

In any case, its not as if the PRC has abruptly bulldozed their way in. Timetables have been announced and people have been given time and compensation to leave.

“ROC has a greater claim to One China than the PRC….Matty is wrong”

First – That’s your opinion. So you label anyone who doesn’t share your opinion as wrong!
Second – Then I am afraid that all governments of this world (except 23) are wrong too; as well as the UN for not recognizing Taiwan as the sole representative of the whole of China. (If the PRC wasn’t communist, would the situation have been different?) Or are they simply afraid of the PRC?
Also, the nationalists LOST the civil war and fled to Taiwan. That’s a fact.

Third – Your argument that “the Republic of China ruled both, the Communist Party of China has only ever ruled the mainland”, is wrong. Because, for example the whole of India has never been under one administration until the British colonized it. Now, after the British left, would you say that the country should be divided into the same Kingdoms and Princely states that prevailed BEFORE the British arrived?

“But hey, why let facts and history get in the way, eh?”
Again the same thing. So what you mean to say is that your opinions are facts.

IN ANY CASE, THAT IS OFF-TOPIC. ALL I SAID ORIGINALLY WAS THAT (SINCE THIS IS A
COMPLEX ISSUE) IT WOULD BE WRONG AND IMMATURE TO CALL EITHER CLAIM RIDICULOUS , AS sp DID.

@sp

WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING NEEDLESSLY OVER MINOR TOPICS; AND AS I SAID EARLIER, we AGREE IN SPIRIT IF NOT THE LETTER.

“Really? If they didn’t want the Sichuan tragedy to happen again, why did they do this?”
“Any logical person will not be able to see how such despicable actions is a sign of “certainly not going to let that happen again.”

I see that you are making me repeat the same things over and over again. Read my previous post carefully, where I say,

“That’s another difference between India and China. China may not publicly admit its mistakes, but later takes many steps to solve it. India, on the other hands admits its mistake (”I hang my head in shame” the Indian PM said referring to the 1984 riots) but the court cases are still dragging on after 25 years and it is still being discussed in Parliament. Out of 2,733 officially admitted murders, only nine cases led to convictions. Just over 20 accused have been convicted in 25 years – a conviction rate of less than 1%. Hence, it doesn’t learn from them for the most part.”

As for the evidence, I have already said that there are arguments on both sides and have already given mine. You will agree that it is in no way inappropriate for me to ask for evidence of any statements which you make. I’ve given evidence for all my statements.
I think that a major part of the western media shows some biased tendencies, which I intend to explore on my blog.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT CHINA IS DOING ENOUGH FOR ITS MINORITIES. WHAT I HAD ARGUED IN MY BLOGPOST WAS THAT CHINA IS MORE FOR ITS MINORITIES THAN INDIA IS.
MUCH MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE, AS I SAID EARLIER.

“Look at Salman Rushdie and the fatwa that was issued to kill him by Khomeini (it still stands ). If you want to stir shit onto yourself by messing with the community in the wrong way, please go ahead.”

Conclusion: You are a coward.

“For your info, i have been critical of my own country and have plans to emigrate to the “West” although i may not go to the extent to renouncing my citizenship”

So that’s your solution then – if someone is critical of one’s country – simply emigrate to the west!!
In case you didn’t notice, I have been critical of my country too. But I have no plans of leaving it anytime soon.

“Go and work and live there for about 10 years and come back to tell us about it”

WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO AND WHERE TO GO? DID I EVER TELL YOU TO GO TO INDIA OR ANYWHERE ELSE? Stop behaving like a child.

“I am sure your parents would have taught you from young that owning up to your mistakes or saying “sorry” is the courageous first step to rectifying them.”

Yes, my parents have taught me that, and I don’t need your permission to say it. But we are talking about the CCP here, not me or you. The CCP rectifies them, but doesn’t own up to them. see #59 (the para I cited above)

My parents have also taught me something else – being civil and polite and respecting others’ right to have an opinion.

I see that you are not being quite immature in your comments and using aggressive/rude phrases; often getting personal. Well, while I can do that too – I don’t want to stoop to your level. Ican answer to each one of your arguments, but you will keep asking the same old questions again and again and over-complimenting things. You just embarrassed yourself.
The fact remains that just because a reply is strongly worded doesn’t make it right . It just provides a false and misplaced sense of superiority to those who are afraid. And if I am to have a sense of superiority, I would rather that it be right and correctly placed, unlike yours. Stop behaving like an obstinate child and GROW UP.

I refuse to participate in this debate further.

– Maitreya

February 19, 2010 @ 10:10 pm | Comment

I see that you are not being quite immature in your comments and using aggressive/rude phrases; often getting personal. Well, while I can do that too – I don’t want to stoop to your level. Ican answer to each one of your arguments, but you will keep asking the same old questions again and again and over-complimenting things. You just embarrassed yourself.
The fact remains that just because a reply is strongly worded doesn’t make it right . It just provides a false and misplaced sense of superiority to those who are afraid. And if I am to have a sense of superiority, I would rather that it be right and correctly placed, unlike yours. Stop behaving like an obstinate child and GROW UP.

I refuse to participate in this debate further.

– Maitreya

February 19, 2010 @ 10:12 pm | Comment

OK. So you want the Tibetan nomads to be nomads all there lives

My complete quote was “Some may really want to go the cities, get material goods, have modern education, that’s a better life for them, so let them go. Others may just want to live and die in their traditional mode of life, let them be.”

You deliberately drop the preceding statement in bold to build a strawman argument around it. If you are not being dishonest, deceitful and outright despicable, what are you really? Are you so desperate that you are resorting to such cheap tricks?

Being despicable and cheap? Why don’t you just own up? I get personal with despicable, deceitful scumbags who used cheap tactics like the above like you.

I once again challenge you to quote me where i have concluded Friedman as a coward. This is the third time i am doing it. Someone who can’t even own up his dirty tricks is not fit to call others coward.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:27 am | Comment

“WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO AND WHERE TO GO? DID I EVER TELL YOU TO GO TO INDIA OR ANYWHERE ELSE? ”

The truth is, while you have been singing praises of the CCP in the comfort of your armchair, you aren’t prepare to put your money where your mouth is. That’s you, period.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:29 am | Comment

I’ve given evidence for all my statements.

“This was essentially Soviet policy too.”– evidence?

This is the second time i am asking for it.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:40 am | Comment

I see that you are making me repeat the same things over and over again.

Because like you, i can also find them “unsatisfactory” without giving any reasons why. A taste of your own medicine is always the best cure.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:43 am | Comment

“a major part of the western media shows some biased tendencies”

And as if beating up journalists is the way to clear up those “bias” views.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:45 am | Comment

The CCP rectifies them, but doesn’t own up to them. see #59 (the para I cited above)

Please don’t make us laugh. First, the shoddy construction of the schools in Sichuan was a result of corruption. If those investigating it are receiving violent reprisals and parents were threatened not to pursue matters, how do you rectify it? If Sichuan officials can get away scot-free in this matter and even initimidate victims, what kind of messages are you sending? The message is: You can embezzle the funds and build flimsy schools and get away with it. What a way to rectifying things! Your Kashghar example is therefore irrelevant in trying to explain things that happened in Sichuan.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:51 am | Comment

First – That’s what you think. You are more than welcome to verify the accuracy of any of my statements. Try doing that instead of throwing such immature remarks around.

How civil are you really? You can’t even stand the slightest criticism other commentators have on your comments. And Mike didn’t even get personal with you, you already call his remarks “immature”.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:57 am | Comment

When you already made Lhasa and Urumqi Han-majority cities with massive migration

You’re forgetting that Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese in Dzungaria, not “Uighur” Xinjiang. Wait, you never actually knew that. My mistake.

Urumqi has always been majority Han or Mongol. Ethnic cleansing of the real natives by the so-called “Uighur” in the 19th century changed that.

February 20, 2010 @ 2:30 am | Comment

Although Ürümqi is situated near the northern route of the Silk Road, it is a relatively young city. During the 22nd year of Emperor Taizong’s reign in the Tang Dynasty, AD 648, the Tang government set up the town of Luntai in the ancient town seat of Urabo,[3] 10 kilometers from the southern suburb of present-day Ürümqi. Ancient Luntai Town was a seat of local government, and collected taxes from the caravans along the northern route of the Silk Road.

Have a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi#History

Oh and put your money where your mouth is sp, move to India. America was not built on democracy either, but India will be once it’s developed.

So go move there or all your arguments mean nothing.

February 20, 2010 @ 2:31 am | Comment

Oh and put your money where your mouth is sp, move to India.

Cite where i have sing praises about India? By the way, is merp staying China now?

If he/she/it cant answer this, he/she/it is just some random noise.

You’re forgetting that Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese in Dzungaria, ….

Going on and on like a longwinded fart. Israel was first inhabited by the Jewish people way back to the time of the Roman Empire. Then they moved out and the Palestinians move in. Which side has more legitimate claim? If you cant answer, you can go home and sleep.

February 20, 2010 @ 11:29 am | Comment

You’re forgetting that Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese in Dzungaria, not “Uighur” Xinjiang. Wait, you never actually knew that. My mistake.

You are forgetting that The Tang Emperors are not your pure blood Han Chinese. Wait,
you never actually knew that. My mistake.

February 20, 2010 @ 11:39 am | Comment

Urumqi has always been majority Han or Mongol. Ethnic cleansing of the real natives by the so-called “Uighur” in the 19th century changed that.

What? You are saying that the CCP is so ignorant about history that they name the entire place “Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region” instead of “Xinjiang Han/Mongol Autonomous Region”?

Haha, thanks for pointing out the CCP’s idiotic ignorance about history.

February 20, 2010 @ 11:43 am | Comment

Needless to say, Merp lives a cozy life here in America, while blasting it to hell from the comfort of his armchair.

February 20, 2010 @ 11:52 am | Comment

To Richard #126:
that’s just so typical. So many of those types around, on this blog and others, it seems. China under the CCP is the best thing since sliced bread…just don’t ask them to actually live there.

February 20, 2010 @ 1:19 pm | Comment

Are you suggesting that the CCP WANTS or DOESN’T CARE if citizens die in an earthquake?

By letting its corrupt officials get away scot-free and even intimidate the parents of the dead children, what else is there to suggest? It already happened and it will happen again as long as these officials are not brought to justice. You differ on this?

February 20, 2010 @ 1:58 pm | Comment

“I once again challenge you to quote me where i have concluded Friedman as a coward. ”

I mean “as a fool”.

February 20, 2010 @ 2:01 pm | Comment

As for the evidence, I have already said that there are arguments on both sides and have already given mine.

You openly challenge me with “People keep saying that the government ‘encourages Han migration’ into the region. Without citing any evidence for it or any government policy.” (Post 88)

I answered you with the evidence in post 95.

Then in in post 96, Maitreya said, “There is evidence on both sides out there. ”

I am still waiting for your evidence on the “other side” that contradicts the fact that the CCP has put in policies and incentives to encourage Han migration.

February 20, 2010 @ 2:08 pm | Comment

OK. So are you telling me that you DON’T know that the standard of living in China (among minorities) is better than Indian minorities?

You know what’s so funny about this statement? It’s like forcing a man like me to comment on whether X brand bra is more comfortable than Y brand bra. Am i in a position to comment when i don’t even wear one?

February 20, 2010 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

Guess what i have found? Our dear Maitreya Bhakal is so hardworking as a commentator that he simply cut and paste exactly most of what he had commented in other blogs in order to have “a healthy discussion” with us here.

http://www.farwestchina.com/2010/02/native-americans-vs-uyghurs-tibetans.html

And he is always in the habit of accusing others of being “childish” just because other commentators don’t agree with him.

“Erland said…

@Maitreya –

This is a good conversation to have, but we may have to agree to disagree on some of the topics. I’ll try to keep it short, and you can choose to respond if you’d like.

From what I understand, the regional Uyghur government is merely a pawn of Beijing, which was actually led by Wang Lequan (a Han) during the disputes in July. Mr. Lequan was the center of much Uyghur animosity and has since moved on. Your NYT article is correct and proves my point. They are “summoned to meetings at which eviction timetables and compensation sums are announced.” There is a big difference between being part of the conversation, and listening to the conversation.

My rights include more than food and water. You asked for examples, and I have many. Again, we can choose to disagree on this, but I want to give you a few. First, Islam is a certified religion in China, but it comes with restrictions in Xinjiang. Youth are not allowed to enter mosques under the age of 18, individuals are only allowed to use the state-approved version of the Holy Quran, any men working in the state sector cannot wear beards, and Imams are often searched and imprisoned. Speaking of prison, due process and a fair justice system is a right the Uyghurs do not enjoy. A good site to start with is Harry Wu’s Laogai Foundation (http://laogai.org/). I know you probably consider it Western-dribble, but one could also reference Human Rights Watch for more documented cases of many human rights violations. You can also view my blog and read about the Uyghurs illegally deported out of Cambodia who have since disappeared.

In regards to language, it would be good to see the difference between a bilingual education policy, and what is being taught in the schools. I have read concerns from Uyghur parents who are struggling to cope with the younger generation not speaking Uyghur. I understand that business is conducted in Chinese, and so there is an incentive to learn Chinese for the Uyghurs.

Xinhua and People’s Daily DO speak quite positively about Xinjiang, and all the “great things that are going on there.” There is a difference between what is going on in a region, and the people who exist in that region. During the July 5th riots, the Uyghurs were portrayed as terrorist and separatists. When I interview Chinese Nationalists living in the United States, they have a skewed view of who the Uyghurs really are because of the media. It didn’t cause the rioting, but it did not help it.

I want to be very clear that I am not a China hater. I don’t hold a grudge against the Chinese citizens, and I know that many in government are just doing what they are told. As an American, if there is any country that I want to partner with and build a relationship, it would be China. I think that they have made strides, but they have a long way to go. But what do I know? I am some young American blogger who obviously has too much time on his hands (our long comments are evidence of that).

-Erland

http://www.uyghurblog.com

To which Maitreya replies:

“Maitreya Bhakal said…

@Erland

I think that the argument is getting childish here and off topic. For example, your main concern is against suppression of religion. However, we are discussing (NON) DISCRIMINATION TOWARDS MINORITIES – not FREEDOM OF RELIGION. The policy of children under 18 not being allowed inside places of worship and state employees having to shave beards – that are arguments against FRREDOM OF RELIGION, which is not what we are discussing here. These policies are not discriminatory against Uyghurs, since they are implemented even for Han Chinese (Muslims).
I find it appalling that some in the western media automatically think of minorities like Uyghurs in terms of their religion. I find this condescending. There are other things in Uyghur culture besides religion. Also, take the Uyghur practice of having multiple wives. This is not allowed according to PRC law. Will you say that this is discriminatory?

About access to a fair justice system – Well, the same laws apply to Han Chinese as well. You are again going off topic here. Your comments are suitable in a debate about LEGAL RIGHTS, not (NON) DISCRIMINATION TOWARDS MINORITIES.

About the summoning to meetings – what would you have the government do? ASK the Uyghur population to leave when it is convenient to them? Thus increasing the earthquake risk still further? The government has in fact offered incentives for those leaving early. Also, I would like to point out that the demolition of Kashgar was planned BEFORE the riots…

(Read the rest from the link i have provided)

February 20, 2010 @ 5:31 pm | Comment

In any case, its not as i, as sp said, the PRC has abruptly bulldozed their way in. Timetables have been announced and people have been given time and compensation to leave.

Look at this: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/culture/can-an-ancient-city-be-rebuilt/277769

“The city says the residents have been consulted at every step of planning. Residents mostly say they are summoned to meetings at which eviction timetables and compensation sums are announced.

The city offers displaced residents new homes on the sites of their old ones, but will not pay for the cost of rebuilding.

“My family built this house 500 years ago,” Hajji, 56, said as his wife served tea in their two-story Old City house.

“It was made of mud. It’s been improved over the years, but there has been no change to the rooms.”

The garage in Hajji’s home has been converted to a shop from which the family sells sweets and trinkets. With 16 rooms, the home has sprawled over the centuries into a mansion by Kashgar standards.

But Hajji and his wife lost their life’s savings caring for a sick child, and the city’s payment to demolish their home will not cover rebuilding it. Their option is to move to a distant apartment, forcing them to close their shop, their only source of income.”

What kind of compensation is this when it couldn’t even pay for rebuilding?

February 20, 2010 @ 5:50 pm | Comment

It seems merp has found his Nemesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(mythology)

February 20, 2010 @ 10:58 pm | Comment

Wrong link copy-paste. Better so.

http://tinyurl.com/24c2hj

February 20, 2010 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

@S.K. Cheung
Usual thing with leftist. Almost no one of them want to live in a “worker’s paradise”.

But they promote them nonetheless.

February 20, 2010 @ 11:37 pm | Comment

SP2, excellent detective work. I knew something was fishy with our new friend’s comments.

February 21, 2010 @ 1:11 am | Comment

Those are MY OWN comments which I have ‘copied and pasted’, not anyone else’s.
They are about similar issues; and hence my comments about those issues are also similar on different websites.

Also, on the farwestchina link which you have given, I didn’t call the commenter childish – I called the argument childish – there’s a difference.

In any case, as I’ve said earlier – I’m not going to participate in this debate any longer, due to sp’s immaturity and personal remarks. Only those who are afraid of being bitten bark the loudest.

– Maitreya

February 21, 2010 @ 1:21 am | Comment

In any case, as I’ve said earlier – I’m not going to participate in this debate any longer,

ROTFL – you’ve said it several times now!

No one said you plagiarized – but you are spamming, copying your own comments and pasting them on different sites. And now we all know. Take care, Maitreya – we wish you the best.

February 21, 2010 @ 1:43 am | Comment

To ecodelta:
I don’t know if China is a “worker’s paradise” any longer. Just as I’m not sure if Marx would recognize CCP’s China of today to represent his philosophies. I’m also not sure if “communism” requires “authoritarianism” at its core. Nonetheless, that’s what PRC citizens are left with under the CCP in China.

February 21, 2010 @ 2:48 am | Comment

Matty
““ROC has a greater claim to One China than the PRC….Matty is wrong”

First – That’s your opinion. So you label anyone who doesn’t share your opinion as wrong!”

So when did Taiwan ever belong to the PRC?

Here’s some interesting titbits
“The founding of the Republic of China began on 10 October 1911 as a result of the Wuchang Uprising, but was not formally established until 1 January 1912. The ROC had once encompassed mainland China and Outer Mongolia. At the end of World War II, with the surrender of Japan, the Republic of China took over the island groups of Taiwan and Penghu from the Japanese Empire. With the end of the world war, the government drafted the Constitution of the Republic of China, which was adopted on 25 December 1947. When the Chinese Nationalist Party (Kuomintang, KMT), the then leading party of the ROC, lost mainland China in the Chinese Civil War to the Communist Party of China (CPC) in 1949, the central government relocated to Taiwan, establishing Taipei as its provisional capital.[11] Despite being forced out of mainland China, Chiang Kai-shek, the Nationalist leader, declared that the ROC was still the legitimate government of China and Outer Mongolia.[12][neutrality is disputed] In mainland China, the victorious Communist party founded the People’s Republic of China. The Taiwan Area became the extent of the Republic of China’s jurisdiction.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China

My personal opinion? And the fact that you didn’t agree with my “opinion” means I think you’re wrong? How does my opinion influence history, pray tell?

“Now, after the British left, would you say that the country should be divided into the same Kingdoms and Princely states that prevailed BEFORE the British arrived?”
Nah, mate – do it China style. India was and is a part of Britain 🙂

You’ve floundered on your earthquake story, I feel. As stated, the buildings in kashgar are centuries old. I admit that this does not mean they are earthquake-proof….but as the earthquake in Sichuan showed, new buildings are not the best during an earthquake either…

February 22, 2010 @ 5:38 am | Comment

It seems merp has found his Nemesis.

A nemesis would put up a good fight. sp just flails around, tries to string together incoherent thoughts, and panders to popular “thought” when he inevitably fails.

He’s almost an amusing opponent, but not quite.

February 22, 2010 @ 6:25 am | Comment

put up a good fight.

Pointing out to you that Tang emperors weren’t pure Hans is one instance of that “good fight”.

February 22, 2010 @ 10:23 am | Comment

Delusional again? You’re probably thinking of someone else, I know that some Tang Emperors had Xianbei mothers.

March 1, 2010 @ 8:06 am | Comment

Let’s revisit merp’s comments 121 and 122 (note the words in BOLD):

“You’re forgetting that Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese in Dzungaria…”

“Although Ürümqi is situated near the northern route of the Silk Road, it is a relatively young city. During the 22nd year of Emperor Taizong’s reign in the Tang Dynasty, AD 648, the Tang government set up the town of Luntai in the ancient town seat of Urabo..”

Merp’s condition is more than just erratic delusion. I am afraid it is advanced dementia that needs immediate medical attention and intervention.

March 1, 2010 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

Nice catch, SP.

This thread is a month old. Can’t believe it’s still active.

March 1, 2010 @ 9:26 pm | Comment

“Although Ürümqi is situated near the northern route of the Silk Road, it is a relatively young city. During the 22nd year of Emperor Taizong’s reign in the Tang Dynasty, AD 648, the Tang government set up the town of Luntai in the ancient town seat of Urabo..”

At least it isn’t mental retardation, or is this only historical revisionism?

Tang Taizong had a Xianbei mother. He was heavily acculturated to Northern China, worked for Chinese interests, indentified as Chinese, and sent Chinese people to found Urumqi. And note this:

the Tang government set up the town of Luntai

Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese.

Learn how to read.

March 2, 2010 @ 7:25 am | Comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians

We wuz there fust!

March 2, 2010 @ 8:38 am | Comment

Tang Taizong had a Xianbei mother.
Urumqi was founded by Han Chinese.

Trolls not only find it hard to tell the truth; they have problem swallowing their pride when it comes to owning up to their factual blunders.

Haha, anyway, what’s so surprising? This horseshit comes from someone who claims that China put in place the yuan peg after the Asian financial crisis when in fact the peg was in place way before that:

“@Merp
Before you whine about the RMB, please remember that the peg was put in place to stabilize the region after Western speculators and the IMF destroyed the Thai Baht.

Factual error. The peg was already there way before the Asian Financial Crisis occurred in 1997. Since 1995, the exchange rate of the RMB against the USD was fixed at 8.28 yuan to one US$. ”

http://www.pekingduck.org/2009/12/chinas-domestic-consumption-a-myth/#comments

It’s hard to accept for merp to accept the fact that his long-held beliefs and “facts” always turn out to be worthless horseshit and hope that others will quickly overlook his blunders.

March 2, 2010 @ 9:46 am | Comment

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