China’s domestic consumption – a myth?

There are some wildly divergent schools of thought on China’s economy, as you can see in this new post by my friend Dror (with whom I disagree on a lot of things). He blasts the rosy scenarios in some Western media claiming China will “1.) decouple” from the US and other countries it has depended on for exports and 2.) continue its growth by domestic consumption instead. His conclusion:

[I]n the real world, China’s economy is becoming increasingly dependent on investment in fixed-assets (by government, or via government-induced loans), and depends less, not more, on local consumption. China’s development trend and growth in real manufacturing income is very different from that of other “Asian Tigers” and seems to offer a very limited benefit to those working at the lowest paying jobs – which means they are not going to become the world’s new consumers any time soon.

It looks like the only decoupling we have been experiencing over the past 12 months is a decoupling from reality – a growing gap between what we read in the papers and what really happens in the global economy. There is a lot of growth in China, and while some people are making more money, there are even more people who don’t, and a few people who make more than everyone else combined. And while there is an increase in retail spending, local consumption is not likely to become China’s main growth engine any time soon.

No matter what the CIA World Fact Book or The Economist says, I’d have to agree that China is not ready to decouple from the US, just as we aren’t ready to decouple from them. I’m not as pessimistic as Dror is about China’s prospects, but the points he raises are definitely worth considering. Decoupling, I believe, is a long way off, as much as the propaganda wants you to think otherwise.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 98 Comments

@merp
And how were said “huge foreign reserves” accrued? Try to think, instead of parroting pro-Western propaganda.

Through trade surpluses? Because China has comparative advantage at labour intensive industries and the rest of the world is buying its exports.

Back to the topic: How does pegging ALONE prevent speculation? That’s your claim, not mine.

December 7, 2009 @ 5:04 am | Comment

@merp
they are still miles ahead of the government of India in terms of providing for the population, and ahead of America in terms of, well, not killing innocent people in the last 40 years.

Yea, why don’t you say they are still miles ahead of all the governments in the world in terms of:

1) Allowing tainted milk to poison the population
2) Harassing AIDs activists
3) Flimsy school structures in earthquake zones
4) Covering up the true extent of pandemic like SARS
5) Corrupt provincial authorities usrping the peasants land
6) Turn a blind eye to lead poisoning

Let all the governments in the world to kowtow in the dircetion of Zhongnanhai for all these unprecedented achievements!

December 7, 2009 @ 5:11 am | Comment

@merp
or last 30 years, that is

Well well, as if shipping arms to Sudan, Zimbabwe and Myanmar have not consequences on innocent lives. Well done merp. Now we know how your moral reasoning and logic work.

December 7, 2009 @ 5:25 am | Comment

@merp
China is not export dependent. An all-American myth

Then try tell China to close its doors, stops all its exports and cut off all trade with the world and see how it will be like. I wonder whether its economy will look better than North Korea’s if that happens.

December 7, 2009 @ 5:49 am | Comment

The Soviets handed Manchuria over to Mao because they wanted China to be divided between Chiang and Mao.

Thank you, you finally admit that the Soviets were a bane to the Nationalists and China in general, and increased Mao’s position specifically to undermine China.

Back to the topic: How does pegging ALONE prevent speculation? That’s your claim, not mine.

… the pegging helps with the reserves

Yea, why don’t you say they are still miles ahead of all the governments in the world in terms of:

Allowing tainted milk to poison the population

Sadly, six infants died. I love how the Western media blew the melamine scandal up into international hysteria when just about as many people have died in Toyotas due to floor mats riding up into accelerators.

Flimsy school structures in earthquake zones

I guess all of New Orleans should have been “hurricane proofed” as well.

Covering up the true extent of pandemic like SARS

Failing to take proper measures for Swine Flu.

Corrupt provincial authorities usrping the peasants land

And yet Americans continue to steal the land of Native Americans, renege on treaties. Currently, the Lakota are facing problems because of oil discovered near their land and another tribe is now suing to have lands (sold illicitly by “private owners” amongst their own) returned to them.

Turn a blind eye to lead poisoning

As opposed to America’s depleted uranium and agent orange- but those are brown non-Christians, it doesn’t count!

Yes, China does some bad things. But China is not all about melamine scandals and lead poisoning! /Chinese Richard

In truth all of those are problems that need to be dealt with- at least with lead poisoning the Chinese government is at least recognizing that it’s a problem.

It’s not like America dropping millions of tons of bombs on Laos, polluting their environment and crippling all sorts of people even up until this day, or agent orange leading to mutations and disease, or now depleted uranium disfiguring and crippling Iraqi men, women, children and babies.

sp is clever troll like all anti-Chinese trolls, looking to distract everyone else from their own countries’ overwhelmingly evil behavior by much lesser (still atrocious) transgressions from China. What an underhanded and loathsome agenda.

December 7, 2009 @ 6:06 am | Comment

@Merp – Yeah, a friend of mine sent me the Chang piece and that’s where the stat on fuel/car sales comes from. My first reaction was to tell my friend that after the total failure of China’s banks to collapse due to non-performing loans back in 2002, Chang was tainted, but his stats check out. Energy/power consumption, as you can see above, comes from a different source, but I am not claiming any of this as my own – I’m certainly no expert, nor am I counting on you personally to come up with answers.

December 7, 2009 @ 6:24 am | Comment

I’m still guessing that the CCP may have just replaced a lot of old cars in government fleets. Cash for clunkers for princelings and overlords.

December 7, 2009 @ 6:34 am | Comment

@merp
Thank you, you finally admit that the Soviets were a bane to the Nationalists and China in general, and increased Mao’s position specifically to undermine China.

Haha..Nobody denies that. Stop your self-congratulation by knocking down a strawman. Merp seems to have selective amnesia when he forgot his statement “Soviets pushed Mao onto Chinese people”. The Soviets certainly did not orchestrate a plot to put Mao in charge of China nor were the Soviet action over Manchuria the only factor that resulted in Mao’s victory in 1949. If your statement is valid, i think Chiang, more than anyone else, actually pushed Mao onto the Chinese people through his incompetence and corruption. Stop self-cong

Sadly, six infants died. I love how the Western media blew the melamine scandal up into international hysteria when just about as many people have died in Toyotas due to floor mats riding up into accelerators.

Flimsy school structures in earthquake zones

I guess all of New Orleans should have been “hurricane proofed.. yada yada yada

Can’t be bothered with this kind of tu quoque arguments. Merp, grow up. Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. Didn’t your parents taught you this simple rule of behavior? Your diatribes only provides me comic relief after a day’s hard work

sp is clever troll like all anti-Chinese trolls
Yawns… the old and outdated CCP tactic of equating criticism of the communist ruling class with being “anti-Chinese”. I have to concede that Marx was brilliant when he claimed that the ruling class always attempt to create false consciousness and manufactures “public opinion” among the masses. Thats what the CCP as a bourgeois ruling class is doing now: Labeling all its critics as “anti-Chinese”. A party (ruling class) sycophant like merp is expected to obediently toe the line.

December 7, 2009 @ 8:37 am | Comment

@Merp

… the pegging helps with the reserves

Then why didn’t pegging help Argentina with reserves in 2002 when there is a BOP crisis? Why didn’t pegging help Thailand with the reserves in July 1997 when there is a run on the baht? Why didn’t the European Exchange Rate Mechanism which the pound was part of,(characterized by pegging) helped Britain with reserves on Black Wednesday in 1992?

Stop trying so desperately to masquerade like an economist, i have just kicked your ass when i corrected you on the fact that the RMB peg was already in place in 1995, not after the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis as you have blundered. You got no credibility in economics at all, zilch.

Merp, it’s no shame to be uneducated in economics. I can quote some cheap and good economics textbook if you want to get one. Great deals.

December 7, 2009 @ 8:59 am | Comment

@Merp

Yes, China does some bad things

For the reputation of 1.3 billion innocent ordinary Chinese people, the above sentence should instead be “Yes, CCP does some bad things”.

Merp, CCP is not = Chinese people. Which part of this do you not understand?

December 7, 2009 @ 9:19 am | Comment

@Michael Turton – I guess we “CCP trolls” do manage to come up with the occasional good point in between taking orders from Zhongnanhai.

December 7, 2009 @ 10:42 am | Comment

Did I call you a CCP troll? AFAIK you’re just a concern troll, whose responses always justify whatever anti-Taiwan action is going on.

December 7, 2009 @ 11:13 am | Comment

@sp
“Soviets pushed Mao onto Chinese people”. The Soviets certainly did not orchestrate a plot to put Mao in charge of China

Learn how to read, please. The Soviets did indeed push Mao onto China, which generally rejected Communism, by elevating his position. It doesn’t matter what their goals were.

Can’t be bothered with this kind of tu quoque arguments.

Can’t be bothered with your “hey look what that guy is doing” arguments. Grow up.

A party (ruling class) sycophant like merp is expected to obediently toe the line.

Argumentum ad youre-a-communist-um, grow up.

Then why didn’t pegging help Argentina with reserves in 2002 when there is a BOP crisis? Why didn’t pegging help Thailand with the reserves in July 1997 when there is a run on the baht? Why didn’t the European Exchange Rate Mechanism which the pound was part of,(characterized by pegging) helped Britain with reserves on Black Wednesday in 1992?

Now you’re making things up, like a good little troll. All I said is that the peg is in place to deter speculators. Obviously, the currency reserves are a part of it.

December 7, 2009 @ 11:30 am | Comment

For the reputation of 1.3 billion innocent ordinary Chinese people, the above sentence should instead be “Yes, CCP does some bad things”.

That’s something Chinese Richard would have said 😉

December 7, 2009 @ 11:31 am | Comment

@merp: Remind me again, in the end of 2008, there was a dramatic decline in US private consumption. Did this have any effect on China’s Q1/09 GDP?
Based on your theory, it didn’t.

December 7, 2009 @ 12:21 pm | Comment

@merp

No need for that, FOARP’s comment is extracted straight from Gordon G. Chang. He’s the real genius behind those words.

Well spotted. And your rebuttal is……..?

December 7, 2009 @ 5:35 pm | Comment

@Michael Turton – Yeah, I guess anyone who doesn’t support excluding mainlanders from restaurants in Taiwan, who disagrees with describing mainland Chinese as ‘perps’, who asks for actual evidence of a KMT/CCP conspiracy to reunify Taiwan with the mainland behind the backs of the Taiwanese people before he believes that such a conspiracy, you know, exists – anyone who does any of these things must be a pro-China CCP troll. Anything backing up your assertion that a guy like me might support the CCP/pro-China camp? Well, I guess you don’t need to produce any evidence for that either.

December 7, 2009 @ 11:00 pm | Comment

@merp
Learn how to read, please. The Soviets did indeed push Mao onto China, which generally rejected Communism, by elevating his position.

Oh no.. apparaently merp has been reading the Martian version of history. Mao didn’t own it to Stalin for his victory, Mao actually need to thank Chiang’s incompetence for his success. Most Chinese were lured by the promises of offered by communism vis-a-vis KMT’s corruption and the chaos of warlordism. If foreign power intervention was really decisive in the outcome of the Chinese Civil War, Chiang would have won hands down with the huge US support he had been receiving. In the end, faced with the KMT’s corruption and incompetence, the majority of Chinese were deceived by the promises of communism and throw in their lot with Mao. Even Madame Sun Yat-sen, Chiang’s sister-in-law, chose to side with the communists then.

December 7, 2009 @ 11:59 pm | Comment

@merp

“All I said is that the peg is in place to deter speculators. Obviously, the currency reserves are a part of it.”

The peg alone does not deter speculation, it is how credible the peg appeared. Huge foreign reserves deter speculation, not the peg itself. I didn’t make up the crises in Argentina, Thailand or Britain, but i bet you know nuts about what happened in those crises ansd accusing me of making them up is a easy way for you to wriggle your way out.

You haven’t even explain how the peg help with the reserves, and now when your reasoning is going no where, you back-pedalled and said reserves is part of the peg. How hilarious.

The peg is the form, the reserves is the substance. The reserves is NOT part but the WHOLE of the peg.

To put it simply, if you are the monetary authorities, you can peg your currency to the USD at whatever rate you want, even at 1 RMB to 1 Billion USD. But if you do not have the required foreign reserves to support that rate, you essentially inviting speculators to fuck you upside down.

December 8, 2009 @ 12:11 am | Comment

@merp

Can’t be bothered with your “hey look what that guy is doing” arguments. Grow up.

Gees, i am not even the stereotyped lao wai you think i am. I am a true Blue Chinese criticizing the ruling class. Don’t be too presumptous.

Argumentum ad youre-a-communist-um, grow up

Don’t flatter yourself. You are not even a communist. In Marxist-Leninist terms, you are an agent of the bourgeois ruling class who hangs on to the name of “communist”.

December 8, 2009 @ 12:17 am | Comment

@merp
That’s something Chinese Richard would have said

Call me whatever you want, “Chinese Richard”, “Chinese Khrushchev”, “revisionists sponsored by the Brezhnev-Kosygin clique” etc whatever.

When i criticize the Communist ruling class, i am not criticizng the people of China. The two are not Siamese twins.

You just have no balls to engage in meaningul debate beside indisriminate labeling because you can’t even get your reasoning and facts right. remember your Chinese peg put in place post Asian Financial Crisis blunder? What a joke. Don’t shame your fellow Chinese. Do you even know the writing strokes of the Chinese character of “耻”?

December 8, 2009 @ 12:40 am | Comment

@Dror
consumption. Did this have any effect on China’s Q1/09 GDP?
Based on your theory, it didn’t.

It wasn’t just the US that ran into problems. Likewise, China had a real estate bubble then, and the government put forth policies to slow appreciation.

@Si
Well spotted. And your rebuttal is……..?

Gordon G Chang is an idiot and is wrong about everything.

@sp
Mao actually need to thank Chiang’s incompetence for his success.

Mao actually thanked Japan, no Chiang.

Chiang would have won hands down with the huge US support he had been receiving.

LOL. You actually believe the myth of real US aid to China. If anything, the US ruined the Nationalists by trying to play diplomat for the Communists.

You haven’t even explain how the peg help with the reserves, and now when your reasoning is going no where, you back-pedalled and said reserves is part of the peg. How hilarious.

Stop trying to dodge the point. The peg helped China accrue foreign reserves, which has been explained to you several times.

Call me whatever you want, “Chinese Richard”, “Chinese Khrushchev”, “revisionists sponsored by the Brezhnev-Kosygin clique” etc whatever.

I’m not talking about you here. Just using Richard’s “style” in dismissing American atrocities.

When i criticize the Communist ruling class, i am not criticizng the people of China. The two are not Siamese twins.

You can’t blame me for not believing you before- most foreigners want to destabilize China to hurt the people- i.e attacking the government to kill the nation, and I assumed you were a typical laowai troll who thinks the West is holy.

December 8, 2009 @ 1:06 am | Comment

@Michael Turton – Yeah, I guess anyone who doesn’t support excluding mainlanders from restaurants in Taiwan, who disagrees with describing mainland Chinese as ‘perps’, who asks for actual evidence of a KMT/CCP conspiracy to reunify Taiwan with the mainland behind the backs of the Taiwanese people before he believes that such a conspiracy, you know, exists – anyone who does any of these things must be a pro-China CCP troll. Anything backing up your assertion that a guy like me might support the CCP/pro-China camp? Well, I guess you don’t need to produce any evidence for that either.

What do you expect from a shameless DPP troll who would probably give his kidney to sniff Chen Shui-bians dirty underwear? It’s the typical obnoxious foreigner Pan-Green supporter in Taiwan, who surrounds himself with adoring rednecks, and thinks he’s some kind of authority despite being a total alien to the Taiwanese and Chinese cultures.

December 8, 2009 @ 1:09 am | Comment

@Merp
Mao actually thanked Japan, no Chiang.

So are you saying that Chiang and the KMT’s massive corruption and incompetence, especially how they created hyperinflation, had no part in to play in the masses’ switch to Mao’s side? Yes? No?

believe the myth of real US aid to China. If anything, the US ruined the Nationalists by trying to play diplomat for the Communists

Without the US, KMT would have collapsed even faster. Harry Truman knew that he was sustaining a sinking ship in the form of the corrupt KMT. When he received reports on the extent of corruption within the KMT and how the KMT leaders used US aid to line their pockets, he was reported to have said,“They’re (The KMT) all a bunch of damn thieves!”

Knowing that Chiang would lose at the rate the KMT was wasting itself away, Marshall was sent by Truman to try to negotiate a deal in the hope that China would not fall completely under communism. Mao knew that he had the upper hand by then but he played along in appearance. Chiang, the ever fervent anti-communist, was pressured to play along but he would settle for nothing other than destroying the CCP completely. In sum, US diplomacy was a desperate attempt to save Chiang, their incompetent son of the bitch knowing that he would be defeated. It did not help the communist at all because Mao’s military strength could match Chiang’s by then.

The peg helped China accrue foreign reserves, which has been explained to you several times.

Nope, it was China’s export competitiveness that accumulated reserves, not the peg. But since merp claimed that the peg accrues China foreign reserves, i assumed that a “patriot” like him/her/it will support US pressure on China to revalue the RMB because he/she/it claimed that the peg accumulates reserves for China, in other words, merp implies that China had engaged in manipulating its currency to gain unfair trade advantage. Wow, merp, i suppose this is the first time you have sth in common with the hypocritical US of A. Woo hoo!

Just using Richard’s “style” in dismissing American atrocities.

As far as i have read his blog, Richard has been very critical of US atrocities. He never dismissed them, especially those committed under GWB.

most foreigners want to destabilize China

You know what? You just reminded me of our Dear Empress Dowager Cixi. When China was rotting under her rule, she never looked into the mirror. She only knew how to blame the yang gui zi, wokou, never blaming herself.

December 8, 2009 @ 5:03 am | Comment

@merp
So again you are trying to hijack the Chinese people as human shields to defend CCP.
These tricks had already took their share of abuse here inside the GFW.You really need to find some new stunt.

December 8, 2009 @ 5:24 am | Comment

So are you saying that Chiang and the KMT’s massive corruption and incompetence, especially how they created hyperinflation, had no part in to play in the masses’ switch to Mao’s side? Yes? No?

So are you saying that the Soviets, with their assistance to the Communist, had no part to play in his rise to power? Yes? No?

Without the US, KMT would have collapsed even faster.

The US hardly did anything at all to aid the KMT. Corrupt as they were, I guess they regret it now.

merp implies that China had engaged in manipulating its currency to gain unfair trade advantage.

Rather, it simply makes sense given several factors including embargoes on China led by the US.

You know what? You just reminded me of our Dear Empress Dowager Cixi. When China was rotting under her rule, she never looked into the mirror. She only knew how to blame the yang gui zi, wokou, never blaming herself.

Oh yes the fact that I dismiss the asinine claims of some foreigners means I’m unable to spot the CCP’s flaws.

December 8, 2009 @ 8:49 am | Comment

@merp: ” China had a real estate bubble then, and the government put forth policies to slow appreciation”

You mean the CCP decided to close tens of thousands of factories and fire 20 million migrant workers in order to stop the bubble in the Real Estate market?!

Now it all makes sense. And there I was… thinking that all those closed factories has something to do with declining demand in the US. I should have know… it’s all part of the CCPs plan.

By the way: did it work?
Last time I checked, Chinese housing prices are at an all time high.

December 8, 2009 @ 2:08 pm | Comment

There are a lot of controversial things about the Chinese Civil War, but some facts are no longer in the slightest doubt. Except, evidently, by merp, who appears intent on rehashing the tired old “Who lost China?” arguments of the McCarthy era.

Fact: The Communist armies were primarily armed with American weapons, down to the rifles.

George C. Marshall said that Chiang Kai-shek was “the worst advised military commander in history,” that he was losing “40 percent of his supplies to his enemy,” and that “If the percentage should reach 50 percent he will have to decide whether it is wise to continue to supply his troops.” Mao called CKS “our supply officer.” US military advisor David Barr said: “The Communists had more of our equipment than the Nationalists did.” (All quotes from Halberstam, The Coldest Winter, p. 235)

Conclusion: If the US had sent even more supplies to Chiang Kai-shek, this would only have increased the strength of the CCP.

Other inconvenient facts for the “China Lobby” viewpoint: The USSR was happy with the KMT in charge of China. Soviet military aid to the CCP was minimal. KMT armies outnumbered CCP armies by 4-1 in 1945. More KMT troops surrendered without a fight than after being defeated in combat. Many of the CCP troops conquering south China were actually former KMT troops who’d surrendered in north China.

December 8, 2009 @ 3:57 pm | Comment

@merp

Gordon G Chang is an idiot and is wrong about everything.

A brilliant and incisive rebuttal. Congratulations. Twonk

December 8, 2009 @ 4:41 pm | Comment

@merp
I’m unable to spot the CCP’s flaws.

You are not only able to spot the CCP’s flaws, but you also conveniently whitewash and trivialize them.

the fact that I dismiss the asinine claims of some foreigners

C’mon, what makes you different from the xenophobic feudal rulers of the Manchu imperial court? The old tag line is always “咱们的乱子都是洋人搞出来的!” yawns…

You should take the old Chinese advice in self-reflection, “史以铜为镜”

Rather, it (currency manipulation) simply makes sense given ..

Gosh, when did merp sound more and more like Faux News? Geez..

So are you saying that the Soviets, with their assistance to the Communist, had no part to play in his rise to power? Yes? No?

The US hardly did anything at all to aid the KMT. Corrupt as they were, I guess they regret it now

Hmm, i think the Yūshūkan should be headed by our dear merp.

December 8, 2009 @ 6:03 pm | Comment

@merp
So are you saying that the Soviets, with their assistance to the Communist, had no part to play in his rise to power? Yes? No?

If your claim is true, Mao would have been another Rakosi or Ulbricht, but the truth is he was not. The communist victory, was caused by many factors, but one major factor that cannot be overlooked is: Chiang and his KMT simply fucked themselves up. Any form of Soviet assistance wouldn’t be as decisive as Chiang’s self-checkmating. Why? Because Chiang’s blunders caused the masses to switch sides, any amount of Soviet assistance, no matter how great, would not cause massive defection from KMT to the CCP.

December 8, 2009 @ 6:23 pm | Comment

@Dror
You mean the CCP decided to close tens of thousands of factories and fire 20 million migrant workers in order to stop the bubble in the Real Estate market?!

Tens of thousands of factories! 20 MILLIONS workers! 400,000,000 MILLION ARMY RESERVISTS! 1,300,000,000 CONSUMERS! THE TEEMING YELLOW HORDES ARE COMING!!!!!

I suppose a time machine was invented and we have a visitor from the 19th century… or perhaps you work for CNN, or the CCP, or both at the same time?

Superlative histrionics aside, 20 million represents, aside from wishful thinking and exaggeration, 2.5% of the Chinese workforce. Their wages are low and they earn next to no profit.

It would be like saying America is going to collapse because half of the country’s 7-11 and McDonald’s workers lost their jobs. And I mean that with the least offense possible. Then again, I’m not the one gloating about 20 million of the world’s hardest working and poorest people losing their jobs. Maybe if a meteor falls on planet Earth, killing 90% of the world’s population, and as a result 48 million Chinese migrant workers lose their jobs, you can break out your most expensive drink and have a fucking party with 100 of your best friends!

@Si
A brilliant and incisive rebuttal. Congratulations. Twonk

Get over yourself, Princess. I don’t owe it to you to spoon feed you anything, especially when many authors and articles all over the net have debunked Gordon G. Chang’s bitter, whiny tirades already. It’s simply masturbation material for American jingoists- you’re beginning to sound like you might need one or two of his books to ease your tension.

@sp
You are not only able to spot the CCP’s flaws, but you also conveniently whitewash and trivialize them.

Example? You’re the one doing the whitewashing and trivializing by denying, diminishing and dismissing American atrocities- using the “blame China” card as a proxy for everything.

C’mon, what makes you different from the xenophobic feudal rulers of the Manchu imperial court? The old tag line is always “咱们的乱子都是洋人搞出来的!” yawns…

Because aside from having a realistic view of foreigners, I also of course despise corrupt local officials. I also blame the KMT, and I also blame those Overseas Chinese that are callous to the many humanitarian emergencies in China. That doesn’t mean I’m a deranged West-loving “liberal” that will ignore their disgusting abuses of human rights all around the world.

Why? Because Chiang’s blunders caused the masses to switch sides, any amount of Soviet assistance, no matter how great, would not cause massive defection from KMT to the CCP.

That’s true enough. You’re also forgetting that, according to many international accounts, Japanese soldiers would often dress themselves as Nationalists and commit atrocities in the countryside. The Comintern in America consistently undermined aid to the Nationalists during the war. Aid to China period was next to nothing compared to that given to America’s “racial brothers” in Europe during and after the war.

Not to be omitted from the list are hanjian who worked for the Japanese, a corrupt Qing Court, Opium Dealers (foreign and domestic), warlords, etc. Are you satisfied now or do you insist on going further off topic? Last I checked Manchurian nobles are not the world’s leading human right’s abusers- America and its cronies are.

December 9, 2009 @ 5:44 am | Comment

“…using the “blame China” card as a proxy for everything.”

The malady afflicting you, merpington, is advanced malignant scapula chiponoma. I recommend lots of honey tea to alleviate the bitterness. Oh yes, and rest. Lots of rest, old sport.

December 9, 2009 @ 2:50 pm | Comment

@merp

Example?

Equating the swine flu episode with the CCP’s covering up of SARs? Nobody covered up swine flu but the CCP DID cover up the death toll and seriousness of SARs in the initial stage. Jiang Yanyong, a PLA doctor, then whistle-blew on the cover up and got “disciplined” later by the Party.

Merp, you really have selective amnesia. Better consult a psychiatrist before it’s too late.

By the way, i dare you to name an instance where i am “whitewashing and trivializing by denying, diminishing and dismissing American atrocities”

If not, that’s actually blatant libel.

December 9, 2009 @ 5:43 pm | Comment

@merp

I don’t owe it to you to spoon feed you anything, especially when many authors and articles all over the net have debunked Gordon G. Chang’s bitter, whiny tirades already.

The immature insult aside, if there are so many articles and authors all over the internet debunking Chang it should not take you very long to haul them out. English or Chinese language, both are fine. If you cannot do it, I will have to assume you cannot and that you therefore concede the point.

December 9, 2009 @ 5:47 pm | Comment

@merp

deranged West-loving “liberal”

I supposed you would say that the May 4th Movement in 1919 was organised by a group “deranged West-loving” liberals.

But what can be worse than a deranged “patriot” who can’t even differentiate and see the Chinese people and the CCP as two different entities?

By the way, after reading your economics textbook, can you explain how pegging accrues reserves? Please also explain your blunder of not knowing that the RMB peg was already in place in 1995. Thanks.

December 9, 2009 @ 5:50 pm | Comment

@merp: The numbers are quoted are factual, and have even been confirmed by your CCP overlords. Let me know when you have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

December 9, 2009 @ 7:27 pm | Comment

@merp
Last I checked Manchurian nobles are not the world’s leading human right’s abusers

Merp is not only wanting in his/her/its economic knowledge. Read some Chinese history and you will know that the Manchus are quite capable of butchering– the infamous Yangzhou massacre in 1645, also known in Chinese as “楊州十日”. The gruesome slaughtering details were as disturbing as those committed in Nanking by the Japanese.

December 9, 2009 @ 10:51 pm | Comment

@Si
The immature insult aside, if there are so many articles and authors all over the internet debunking Chang it should not take you very long to haul them out. English or Chinese language, both are fine. If you cannot do it, I will have to assume you cannot and that you therefore concede the point.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gordon+g+chang+idiot&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B2DVFA_enUS224US224&ie=UTF-8

@sp
But what can be worse than a deranged “patriot” who can’t even differentiate and see the Chinese people and the CCP as two different entities?

By the way, i dare you to name an instance where i “can’t even differentiate and see the Chinese people and the CCP as two different entities?”

If not, that’s actually blatant libel.

@Dror Poleg
The numbers are quoted are factual, and have even been confirmed by your CCP overlords. Let me know when you have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

The numbers quoted where? I wasn’t talking about how “factual” they are. I’m talking about how useless they are- not even your CIA/Mossad overlords are using them.

December 10, 2009 @ 8:40 am | Comment

@Merp

i dare you to name an instance where i “can’t even differentiate and see the Chinese people and the CCP as two different entities”..

Please kindly recall at what you SAID on December 7, 2009 @ 6:06 am when i was merely critizing the CCP regime and not the Chinese people:“sp is clever troll like all anti-Chinese trolls..”

What does it say about someone who calls a Party critic “anti-Chinese”?

Given that you are probably suffering from advance dementia with your poor memory of what you said, i don’t think you will have the balls to own up to what you have uttered.

Seriously, if Pekingduck really disgusts you so much, don’t read it. Nobody point a gun to your head to come here. If America irks you so much, set up another blog and rant about the atrocities of America all you want. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. Get a life.

December 11, 2009 @ 3:01 am | Comment

@Merp

And i am still waiting for you to name one instance of me “whitewashing and trivializing by denying, diminishing and dismissing American atrocities”. If i don’t get any examples from you of me doing the above, i will assume that you are just another ball-less name-calling coward.

December 11, 2009 @ 3:05 am | Comment

@merp: “even your CIA/Mossad overlords are using them”

I am a freelancer. You can ask the CCP to give me a call. Always happy to help.

December 11, 2009 @ 1:35 pm | Comment

Sp, for Merp to call you a troll is amusing. No one meets the dictionary definition like Merp, who hijacks threads, constantly disrupts, hurls barbed comments at anyone who tries to interact and is generally rude and obnoxious (nothing personal, of course).

December 11, 2009 @ 11:11 pm | Comment

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-12/11/content_9161775.htm

Electricity use up 26.9% in November. So, I wouldn’t be surprised that the factories are firing up again.

December 12, 2009 @ 4:59 am | Comment

You might want to read that Richard, and understand what the “brown” people of this world are trying to say to America. There are lessons to be learned on a daily basis, and your blog is no exception. Do not dismiss so easily what you first perceive as noise, or dissonant voices in the cyberspace. We are all here for the same reason, looking for some king of truth in this crazy world. Be tolerant Richard, being dismissive and narrow minded will lead you nowhere.

Land of the Puppet People (scroll down for this post)

http://www.valenzuelasveritas.blogspot.com/

December 12, 2009 @ 5:09 am | Comment

Now that you are half-way reading it, notice that it was written in 2006, not in 2009. Do you recognize any familiar pattern, happening right now in our world?

December 12, 2009 @ 5:23 am | Comment

“None of the above will matter, for all has been forgotten and disregarded, for we live in the United States of Amnesia.”

Now think about what Merp is saying. He is right. He’s absolutely right. And it’s time for us to recognize it, once and for all.

December 12, 2009 @ 5:28 am | Comment

Bao, are you enjoying talking to yourself? Again?

I am extremely critical of America and have been attacked mercilessly by right-wingers who think I am a far-left anti-American socialist. Then I get attacked for not being anti-American enough. I think I’ve struck a pretty good balance.

Bao, have you considered starting your own blog? I’m not sure anyone would read it, based on the fact that virtually all of your comments are ignored, but it would at least keep you busy. Or what about macrame?

December 12, 2009 @ 6:36 am | Comment

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