What should Obama do for China?

Here’s your chance to tell him.

I arrived in one piece. Was hoping maybe winter would be late this year. But no. It’s brutal out there.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 88 Comments

I can’t wait for winter. Only 6 days until Shanghai…..

This has been the hottest November on record in Melbourne.

November 14, 2009 @ 11:47 am | Comment

A classic and worryingly familiar call from one of the respondents at the provided link:

“Please adjust to the NEW reality and adjust your nation’s attitude toward China: WE are your master because as you know China have lend you trillions
dollars since late 80′s. You must sincerely demonstrate your respect for ALL
Chinese people. It is very troubling that US navy and US air force illegal activities along and sometimes Inside China water and air space. IT would be fatal mistake to interprate our silence as our unwilling or unable to Confront your naval and air force in the region. WE are fully capable to defend and if necessary to challenge US so called naval or air superiority in the region. WE reserve the right to respond with all means including targets on Guam if our aircrafts were attacked. Let me put it simplly, we are not afraid US air force or carrier groups. Frankly, WE are not afraid a fight or several fights at all.”

So much for diplomacy.

November 15, 2009 @ 7:27 am | Comment

Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll see your threat and raise you one (while we’re engaging in citizen bombast that claims to have nationalistic armies at our personal disposal).

I say that America doesn’t need China to buy any more of our treasuries to finance our deficit. And, as the saying goes– or is transposed– if I owe you $1000, that’s my problem. If I owe you 1 trillion-dollars, that’s yours.

Keep threatening the United States and acting like the non-democratic so-called “People’s Republic” is our master.

If the chips are down, China needs the USA’s help more than the other way around. I mean, what can China ultimately do to us (besides dropping even more malware into our computers through, ahem, non-governmental mainland hackers using Adobe updates)? Militarily we’d cancel each other out in a long-persisting land war.

But soft-tactics, like not buying any of our products, would also be pointless (as you already can’t get below zero purchasing and 100% pirating of our entertainment products)?

In other words, how would we even notice if you tried to worsen the status-quo? Your country already cheats and lies its way to economic success through protectionism and unfulfilled free-trade agreements.

What are you gonna do after that? Take away even more non-existent employee-safety regulations, non-existent union-organzing rights and non-existent health-care for your workers (to further enhance the profit-margins for the 90% of China’s billionaires who are sons of corrupt and high-ranking party-officials)? What would Zhao Zhang or Mao’s grandson say about that?

Go right ahead and try to unsustainably peg the Yuan/renmimbi to the dollar even more. Yup, its not even possible. Because things are already as one-sided as they’ll ever get.

So, if that doesn’t take you down a peg or two, listen to The Charlie Daniels Band’s “In America” a few times and watch as we get our good-ol’ boys all riled up (so they’ll finally make the effort to buy Indian products instead of the poisonous lead-and propelyn glycol-flavored dog toothpaste that China’s Han-dominated, non-democracy produces).

I say Han-dominated because India is a multi-ethnic Democracy that ensures equal rights for all its citizens (instead of only safeguarding the interests of the Han).

So, go ahead. Make my day. I wonder what percentage of China’s national boundaries are going to fight for the Han’s who are dispossessing and oppressing them (should war between China and India/The U.S. commence).

A debtors’ default can also work on the geo-political level. But I actually like the fact that China’s following the Jackie Chan Doctrine.

After all, if the unruly Chinese were free to elect their government, they’d probably end the one-child policy and increase their coal-based emissions ever more rapidly and end up driving more cars (thus, melting the Himalayan glaciers before 2050, thus causing millions to die even faster in droughts and endless famines in the desertified former bread-basket of Asia… where the Yellow, Ganges and Yangtze Rivers used to flow).

So Jackie Chan is right. You Chinese are too unruly and individualistic– and not at all inherently-submissive– for Democracy. But don’t blame yourselves. Its all that propaganda and nationalistic conditioning that the above-linked jingoism demonstrates (of course, if it criticized its own government, we wouldn’t be seeing it behind the Great Firewall, would we?)

November 15, 2009 @ 8:08 am | Comment

@Stuart

Yea I read that one, it uses harsh language but it also does so in a way that betrays a less than total comprehension of the English language. Perhaps he/she didn’t mean to come off quite so abrasive. After all the meat of their posting is about concerns related to air space violations on the part of the US which is reasonable enough.

… and then it degrades into an internet tough guy act…

November 15, 2009 @ 12:07 pm | Comment

“Do not ask what Obama can do for China, instead, ask what China…”

November 15, 2009 @ 11:37 pm | Comment

Very simple – leave China alone. Liberals should forget about the “C” word all together. Mind your own business, please.

November 16, 2009 @ 1:05 am | Comment

“Do not ask what Obama can do for China, instead, ask what China…”
Ah hit the nail!
Perhaps change a few words: ask how much China…indeed the cost of wars is getting up…check with costofwar.com please:this is the figure I last got $932,192,517,343

Oh have you dudes figured out the health care reform yet? China is poor, undeveloped, evil communist state and the most strange,why you guys that interested peeping in there,some even move living there( well probably living cost is much, much cheaper, or already hooking with the corrupted Chinese officials to suck dry the ordinary Chinese people’s hard earned money?)

I strongly urge you change the name of this blog, it is misleading, it would only pull glutton’s attention,hardly get those intellectuals ,that is no good for American,right? I care nothing if there is some stupid Chinese pop by to read these TALKING TO SELF stuff…

Chinese who likes to read should go http://www.globalresearch.ca/ or utube Peter Schiff to see how the American spent away their country, the Chinese should alert, there is something going on between your leaders and some west leaders you guys should be WATCHING what they are doing…

Learn from mistakes Chinese I urge you no Macdonold,Cola,and all those brand stuff just read their media, you would know what they have done…the latest report (from Guardian.co.uk) from war they manufactured is ‘birth defects and cancer and deformities in Falluja’

You do not know what you have let in-look before you ‘shake hand)!

November 16, 2009 @ 6:41 am | Comment

Sunwalker, if creating birth defects and cancer and deformities are your test for a bad government, I suggest your read up on China’s famous cancer towns, the high levels of lead poisoning and all kinds of deformities caused by industrial pollution. America often sucks but by your criteria China doesn’t pass with flying colors either.

November 16, 2009 @ 11:20 am | Comment

He should tell China that he is the president of the United States, not China, and therefore he will do whatever is good for the US. If these are also good for China, so be it.

November 16, 2009 @ 2:25 pm | Comment

Finally, the MSM exposing the reality to the mass. It’s about freaking time. And it’s just starting.

If I hear another time this bullshit leftist mantra about China holding the future of America into its hands…

“It is fashionable to talk of America as the supplicant. That misreads the strategic balance. Washington can bring China to its knees at any time by shutting markets. There is no symmetry here. Any move by Beijing to liquidate its holdings of US Treasuries could be neutralized – in extremis – by capital controls. Well-armed sovereign states can do whatever they want.”

“If provoked, the US has the economic depth to retreat into near autarky (with NAFTA) and retool its industries behind tariff walls – as Britain did in the 1930s under Imperial Preference. In such circumstances, China would collapse. Mao statues would be toppled by street riots.”

November 17, 2009 @ 2:05 am | Comment

I never said China has a good government, but so far is not too bad for majority Chinese.Industrial pollution has not just only happened in China,it is the by-product of economic reform…yes,the Chinese should be very careful with the pollution,they should think about their next generations…what China short are scientists and medical professionals to fix the problem but they DO NOT need Obama,or any American’s advise…

It is funny what you said about better government, I am sure you have one because they keep creating birth defects, cancer and deformities in other countries/races!!!I do not understand what you dudes proud of you dudes keep pointing fingers at China this and that?

Have you ever heard about agent orange? Ask the people in Vietnam what the US have done in their land! In Balkans, in iraq and Afghanistan how your radioactive weapon ‘WORKING’ in those region and countries!But I would like to tell you bad things hit home now-your army whoever joined the invasions might have exposed to those DARK material already, so,those better not thinking of having children!

The Chinese government have to be very careful with the money, as, the money should be spent on China,on infrastructure,on cleaning up the pollution,on everything Chinese!

Keep talking bad of China dudes, words cannot bring China down.

I still suggest you change your blog name as American Vulture to fit your nation state’s image.

November 17, 2009 @ 3:55 am | Comment

That misreads the strategic balance. Washington can bring China to its knees at any time by shutting markets.

in your dreams. the us accounts for less than 2% of China’s gdp

November 17, 2009 @ 7:31 am | Comment

A classic and worryingly familiar call from one of the respondents at the provided link:

Once again we have Westerners using the actions of ONE anonymous poster to judge 1.4 billion people. No wonder the Muslims dislike you so much.

I say that America doesn’t need China to buy any more of our treasuries to finance our deficit. And, as the saying goes– or is transposed– if I owe you $1000, that’s my problem. If I owe you 1 trillion-dollars, that’s yours.

Not quite. America has trillions in assets all over the world, and in the case of an American default, these would be nationalized at the expense of the American people. Don’t be naive- if America could simply default, the attitude of the current administration would reflect that in actions and rhetoric.

If America defaults, she will essentially (as another poster mentioned) be forced into autarky- no one will ever want to deal with Americans again for the next 50 years. Meanwhile, your intellectual property, physical assets and perhaps even personnel will be seized and nationalized.

After that you’re pretty much SOL while Eurasia moves on without you.

November 17, 2009 @ 7:35 am | Comment

No one’s talking bad about China. Some may be critical, others a lot less so. But is criticism “talking bad”? Have you seen how critical I am of America? You are the one who entered the forum blasting the US for birth defects and cancer, remember?

November 17, 2009 @ 8:10 am | Comment

No one’s talking bad about China.

See posts one and two, and disingenuous or factually incorrect criticism is worse than insults.

November 17, 2009 @ 8:14 am | Comment

Ferin cut the crap. If you see the first two comments as “talking bad” about China then your feelings are much too tender and you skin is way too thin. The same old inferiority complex, where any perceived criticism of China triggers a reflexive and totally defensive reaction, inclucding the usual pre-recorded tape.

I’ve seen people here really talk bad about China. You may disagree with these commenters or think their information is wrong. But they’re hardly talking bad about China. Enough on that.

Sunwalker’s a troll. Merp is borderline.

November 17, 2009 @ 9:38 am | Comment

A classic and worryingly familiar call

Translation: all Chinese people think this way

Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll see your threat and raise you one

More my dad can beat up your dad stuff from Westerners, how original.

November 17, 2009 @ 10:10 am | Comment

No Ferin, not all Chinese people. Not by a long shot. All Chinese people who come to this blog to counter every comment on China with a canned response about how awful the US is. And all Chinese who claim perpetual victimhood because of the Opium Wars and the looting of the Summer Palace. Very bad things, those wars and that looting. I’m really sorry about them, as I am for many bad things done by colonial imperialists a long time ago. But just as America has to grow up after 911, China has to move on as well and not act as if every criticism is rubbing salt into those old colonial wounds.

Enough on this. Another example of thread highjacking.

November 17, 2009 @ 10:18 am | Comment

All Chinese people who come to this blog to counter every comment on China with a canned response about how awful the US is

What about people who try to bury their own county’s atrocities in the news by flooding every outlet with anti-Chinese, anti-Muslim, anti-Hispanic, anti-Russian, anti-Iranian news?

What about people who counter every comment on the US with a canned response about how awful the Communists, Muslims and Russians are?

That would be stuart, Not_A_Sinophile, etc. who you don’t seem to have a problem with (even though they’re despised on every forum they post on)

And all Chinese who claim perpetual victimhood because of the Opium Wars and the looting of the Summer Palace.

No one here does that, except maybe Math, but I never read his posts.

Another example of thread highjacking.

That would be post number 2. My suggestion would be to give stuart a vacation until he can handle his posting rights.

November 17, 2009 @ 10:24 am | Comment

Oh goodness, here we go again with Ferin. We all know it so well, we could write his responses for him.
Anyway, for my two cents, I think that Obama should simply emphasize the importance of a more open and free government. I don’t really think there’s much else that can be emphasized of importance.
As a sidenote, I also think he should call out the Chinese Foreign Ministry for their ridiculous comparison of Tibet’s “liberation” to Lincoln and the Civil War, but I imagine that the entire affair is simply perceived as too ridiculous to even mention.

November 17, 2009 @ 11:22 am | Comment

As a sidenote, I also think he should call out the Chinese Foreign Ministry for their ridiculous comparison of Tibet’s “liberation” to Lincoln and the Civil War, but I imagine that the entire affair is simply perceived as too ridiculous to even mention.

It’s actually not a bad example, once you brush away the glorification of the Civil War.

November 17, 2009 @ 11:45 am | Comment

What’s fascinating to me is not the exchanges between Obama and Hu or between Obama and the Chinese, but the Obamania that the Chinese seem to indulge in. The Nobel is just a symbol of how differently the world views Obama than Americans do. And the Chinese do not seem to be an exception to this.

I wonder, though, when the dust clears after Copenhagen fails, and the world wipes its eyes and realizes that global elites are not going to do anything about global warming, whether the world’s view of Obama will change. Yet it is so exuberantly irrational, it seems immune to any facts about Obama….

November 17, 2009 @ 8:29 pm | Comment

Yes, merp, never would have guessed you’d say that.
However, if anything, I think that abolitionist ideals should encourage empathy with the present-day Tibetan cause, rather than rationalizing oppression.

November 17, 2009 @ 11:35 pm | Comment

Touche, Kevin.

Michael, the world is thirsting for someone to believe in.

November 18, 2009 @ 1:19 am | Comment

“What should Obama do for China?”

1. End the self-righteous attitude regarding China, particular from the liberal left.

2. Resign as President, and bring back W.

If you can’t do the two above, just continue the pragmatism.

kevinnolongerinpudong wrote:
“However, if anything, I think that abolitionist ideals should encourage empathy with the present-day Tibetan cause, rather than rationalizing oppression.”

If you consider raising the standard of living in that region of China as oppression, then oppression it is. Would you rather live the life of a serf without plumbing and electricity in stone age living condition, or progress into modernity with the rest of the country?

November 18, 2009 @ 3:01 am | Comment

On the whole, Obama was way too weak, and I was greatly disappointed by his visit. Then again, what can we expect? Just as he’s so worried about pissing off the right in America (that’s why Health care is taking so long, despite the fact that the democrats have been holding the cards), he’s overly worried about pissing off the CCP. It was nice, but also kinda pathetic that Huntsman had to be the guy to ask about censorship.

Maybe Pres. Obama was just in a state of ecstasy to be in a country that treats him better than his own people do. They freakin’ shut down the forbidden city for him!

November 18, 2009 @ 5:57 am | Comment

Zhong, no one bowed lower to China than Bush, and Clinton. Obama is carrying on a long-standing tradition. This is not the time for the US to stand up to China (speaking from the mentality of the US president). Somebody has to buy our debt.

Chip, agree with all points.

November 18, 2009 @ 9:40 am | Comment

However, if anything, I think that abolitionist ideals should encourage empathy with the present-day Tibetan cause, rather than rationalizing oppression.

Considering the Han are the most oppressed group in China right now, the abolitionist cause would probably back them more than anything- not that they are inherently opposed to the Tibetans, who aren’t treated much better than any other PRC citizen.

November 18, 2009 @ 12:23 pm | Comment

Richard

Somebody has to buy our debt.

China isn’t the only country that buys US debt. Japan has almost as much US debt as China does (something like 21% to 23% of the total foreign-owned debt). Besides, China has to buy US debt. It’s the only way to keep the (rather unhealthy) US-China trade cycle going.

If the US wants to it can easily stand up to China. It’s about political will. There is an argument (whether right or wrong) that US disinclination to challenge China are more shaped by those members of the American establishment who have business interests in the PRC than by fiscal threats.

November 18, 2009 @ 7:00 pm | Comment

I respectfully refer the author of posts # 14, 16, 18, and 20 to the clinic for irrational and historical grievances.

The author of post #22 is welcome to visit my site to discuss ‘the madness of Qin Gang’. A real fruit-loop, that one.

Back to the topic, I thought Obama did very well in Shanghai. Basically I agree with Fallows’ take on the town hall proceedings.

November 18, 2009 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

By Michael Turton:”What’s fascinating to me is not the exchanges between Obama and Hu or between Obama and the Chinese, but the Obamania that the Chinese seem to indulge in. The Nobel is just a symbol of how differently the world views Obama than Americans do. And the Chinese do not seem to be an exception to this.”

I posted the following in the Racism In China thread.

Interestingly, I am getting the feeling that President Obama is more lovingly embraced in China, than in America, it seems. And he is more loved than any other White Presidents America has sent to China this far.

November 18, 2009 @ 9:50 pm | Comment

copyed from Anti-CNN regarding this question

My expectation for Obama’s visit to China is not high. The world-wide financial crisis stemmed from the United States. China and the rest of the world have been victimized by the Americans’ reckless loan practices. The United States has repeatedly resorted to protectionism in its foreign trade policy. Moreover, President Obama plans to meet the Dalai Lama soon as announced.

These are not signs of friendliness or goodwill; nor the signs of a healthy development of bilateral relations between the two countries.

So when the New York Times raises the survey question, “what you believe Mr. Obama could do for your country”, it draws a picture in one’s mind: a drowning person helplessly struggling in the water, while he asks a person on shore: “What can I do for you?” I feel it’s laughable but not entreating. Instead of extending a helping hand out, while in water, to China, why doesn’t the United States swim ashore by re-examining its policies on Sino-American relations?

If the New York Times is expecting the Chinese youth to cheer Obama like cheering a star during his visit, I am afraid the reality will be frustrating. We all know that Obama is an eloquent speaker, an undisputable expert on rhetoric, but Chinese people can hardly be impressed by a speech expert. Based on Chinese cultural tradition, we only count on deeds, not on words. Under the present circumstances, if Michael Jackson could have come to China, he would have been able to rock a bigger wave. For Obama, however, he has been troubled by many domestic issues, by undeliverable campaign pledges and newly declared promises that are tough to keep. Our highest compliment for such a politician is: he may have a noble motive, perhaps the best ever stated intention, but it takes time to prove them.

Obama claims that he will oppose protectionism; nonetheless he has not done so. We all understand that he is firstly under obligation to his constituents, secondly bounded to the Capitol Hill, and thirdly subject to the opposition party. In my opinion, President Obama is somewhat cartoonish—-no insult whatever is intended—–cartoons could entertain people with delight, but unfortunately they are not reality. Come to think of it, when will your U.S. foreign policy stop saying one thing while doing another?

Perhaps ,only if Mr. Obama achieves something concrete and truly beneficial to the Chinese people(such as not meeting Dalai Lama, stop encouraging the separatism by constantly selling weapons to some province of China,etc.), then I will change my opinion. Still, our best wishes for the President Obama’s visit to China! I hope that the relationship between China and the United States will improve. Long live the friendship between the people in China and the United States!

(end)

Personally, i think the right question is what Obama can do for Americans, we Chinese really don’t need the kindness of Obama, thanks, but no thanks.

November 18, 2009 @ 11:28 pm | Comment

Besides, China has to buy US debt. It’s the only way to keep the (rather unhealthy) US-China trade cycle going.

Like I’ve said at least 10,000 times, the US is at most 2% of China’s GDP. Rather, many countries need to buy US debt- because they’re force to at gunpoint.

If the US wants to it can easily stand up to China.

Sure, they can- but China can bite back, much harder than the US can. China will lose 2% of GDP- America’s economy will completely come apart if China even hints that it will start shorting dollars. If they default, American assets will be seized.

November 19, 2009 @ 5:32 am | Comment

@Chip 27,

I might also mention that China shut down the Great Wall on Wednesday so that Obama could get his Op shot.

@Chi 33,

I totally agree. I think Of Obama’s motives of trying sell ideas of Iran, Afghanistan, Trade, among other things like a used car salesman. He makes a great speech but many Chinese can start to see the BS behind his smile, which explains why you don’t see the obamamania as you see in Europe or in Africa.

November 19, 2009 @ 1:15 pm | Comment

The Obamamania is definitely here (in China), but if you choose not to see it, it’s easy to be in denial. It’s all anyone I know here has been talking about, despite efforts to get his name out of the news. In fact, many of my Chinese friends are talking the spike in censorship since Obama came (some of these people ar ein the news business).

Ferin, I am curious where you came up with the “2 percent” figure you keep repeating.

China and Japan together own 44 percent of US debt. That’s a big chunk.

November 19, 2009 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

Ferin

Sure, they can- but China can bite back, much harder than the US can.

Why is China going to cause another global financial crisis just because the US decides to be more assertive? If it was that powerful and the fallout to China was so minor, why didn’t it “veto” Bush’s arms sales to Taiwan last year? Surely one call from Hu would have stopped it – if we’re to believe you.

Richard

Ferin, I am curious where you came up with the “2 percent” figure you keep repeating.

China holds about $800 billion in US bonds. With an economy of $4.3 trillion, that would be about 18.5% of its GDP.

November 19, 2009 @ 7:18 pm | Comment

We Chinese never expected any foreigner to do something good for us,

November 20, 2009 @ 1:07 am | Comment

Ferin, I am curious where you came up with the “2 percent” figure you keep repeating.

From Economist:

Once these adjustments are made, Mr Anderson reckons that the “true” export share is just under 10% of GDP. That makes China slightly more exposed to exports than Japan, but nowhere near as export-led as Taiwan or Singapore (which on January 2nd reported an unexpected contraction in GDP in the fourth quarter of 2007, thanks in part to weakness in export markets). Indeed, China’s economic performance during the global IT slump in 2001 showed that a collapse in exports is not the end of the world. The annual rate of growth in its exports fell by a massive 35 percentage points from peak to trough during 2000-01, yet China’s overall GDP growth slowed by less than one percentage point. Employment figures also confirm that exports’ share of the economy is relatively small. Surveys suggest that one-third of manufacturing workers are in export-oriented sectors, which is equivalent to only 6% of the total workforce.

@Raj
Why is China going to cause another global financial crisis just because the US decides to be more assertive? If it was that powerful and the fallout to China was so minor, why didn’t it “veto” Bush’s arms sales to Taiwan last year? Surely one call from Hu would have stopped it – if we’re to believe you.

Because arms sales to Taiwan do nothing but rip off the Taiwanese- and once cross-straits relations thaw, that technology will simply be sold to China just as Israel sells reverse engineered American military tech to China. The world of military dealings is incredibly incestuous… much of America’s biological arsenal and rockets are rooted in Axis power research.

China holds about $800 billion in US bonds. With an economy of $4.3 trillion, that would be about 18.5% of its GDP.

Sorry Raj but that was terrible. Not even Gordon Chang has ever said anything so out there. If America defaults on their bonds, they will have negative -200% GDP. Assets and GDP are two different things. America has a net wealth of around $40 trillion, which is one reason why going off of debt/GDP is a decent indicator of sustainability but doesn’t always show the whole picture.

November 20, 2009 @ 2:38 am | Comment

Likewise nearly 20 trillion of US wealth “vanished” in the past 2 years (or didn’t ever exist in the first place…) in dollar denominated value.. that’s more than the GDP of the US and Japan combined.

The truth is, everyone taking a 3% pay cut is not going to kill an economy (what many assume a GDP contraction is) by itself. The destruction of wealth and economic security in America and the Eurozone is what has destroyed jobs and confidence and created the crisis, not a loss in per capita income.

November 20, 2009 @ 2:42 am | Comment

Why not?

November 20, 2009 @ 5:00 am | Comment

Take America’s GDP/cap for example ($47,000 before the crisis). Lowering that to 45590 is nothing vs. losing the last 10 years worth of accumulated “wealth”. That is America went from $160,000 per capita to around $120,000- before we adjust for inflation and factor in America’s non-citizen workforce.

November 20, 2009 @ 5:36 am | Comment

We Chinese never expected any foreigner to do something good for us

Right, it’s not like China has ever got any foreign aid, foreign investment, foreign technological assistance…….

Guys, do you think Jason believes himself to be a good spokesperson for Chinese people and doesn’t believe he’s as xenophobic as Pol Pot? :D

November 20, 2009 @ 5:39 am | Comment

America needs to find a new purpose in the world. The ideal of America as a beacon for freedom may have helped you win the Cold War, but that was an ideological struggle with other Westerners who basically believed in the same things as you and only disagreed in how to achieve them. It also helped that you were becoming more and more prosperous while they languished. Neither situation applies today.
The likes of Merp have a valid point. Obama’s job isn’t to do things for China. Talking about him in that way might seem a little bit like a stranger who approaches you in the street and wants to “help” you. Most people would be suspicious and cynical in that situation.

November 20, 2009 @ 8:02 am | Comment

Right, it’s not like China has ever got any foreign aid, foreign investment, foreign technological assistance…….

Almost none. Compared to the aid and reparations given to post-war Europe, or subsidies to Japan/Korea, China got next to nothing- and has to pay back their “aid” with a low interest. Right after reform, 80-90% of FDI came from Overseas Chinese- now it has declined to 60%+. Foreign technological assistance is nearly non-existent aside from that which comes from Germanic countries (a few tens of millions). The rest, China pays for at an exorbitant price. It’s arrogant to think that tech transfer to China is some kind of charity- it most certainly is not.

Japan has given China about 30 billion in soft loans and 2-3 billion in grants… the inflation adjusted value of the damages done to China in the second world war would probably be around 5-6 trillion dollars. Too bad I guess, but don’t act like foreigners have been doing China any favors.

November 20, 2009 @ 9:12 am | Comment

Richard, hope you are enjoying your time in China and getting a chance to catch up with all your friends. As for the merp or ferin or whatever hte moniker of the day is, I’m surprised that you even bother to respond to his garbage let alone let him post.

Finally, the symbiotic relationship that many countries share with the US will probably prevent a one sided collapse. It’s a situation that is all too familiar: MAD, mutually assured destruction. That was our “brilliant” nuclear weapons policy with the former Soviet Union. China’s economic “miracle” and the only reason the CCP remains in power is that the central government allowed China and its people to be exploited in meeting the consumer demands of the West. Now that there is a new, larger home based “exploiter” class, the Chinese are in a quandary as to who to exploit in turn.

November 20, 2009 @ 9:15 am | Comment

Yes anything that doesn’t worship the West = garbage. Are you done trying to mob me and shout over my posts when you can’t counter a single one of my points? I’m sure as soon as I’m gone you’re going to descend into your typical whiny posts about how Chinese people are so deplorable for being big bad “racists” and how they don’t stand up for human rights blah blah blah blah blah

Finally, the symbiotic relationship that many countries share with the US will probably prevent a one sided collapse.

Saying it 100,000 times doesn’t make it true. China does not need the US. The US needs its creditors (not just China) that include oil exporters and Japan. China could bring the US to its knees, but to no benefit to itself (unless the US is overly hostile).

China’s economic “miracle” and the only reason the CCP remains in power is that the central government allowed China and its people to be exploited in meeting the consumer demands of the West.

In your dreams. The “West” accounts for 5% of China’s GDP and 3% of employment. I know you think you’re gods, but 95% of China’s growth is due to domestic demands or its East Asian neighbors (who also provide China with 80-85% of its FDI).

Apparently your leaders are much wiser- thus aside from some election year theatrics, they tend to be more pragmatic.

November 20, 2009 @ 3:39 pm | Comment

Too bad I guess, but don’t act like foreigners have been doing China any favors.

Oh sure, China has been able to make all these things it makes (both civilian and military) because it went back to square one and reinvented them all. Or are you suggesting that China reverse engineered/stole every single piece of technology it used today.

As for aid, even low interest loans are damn useful. As for FDI, do you have some evidence for your claims about where investment came from?

November 20, 2009 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

“The rest, China pays for at an exorbitant price.”

No, no! You’re just not getting it, feromerp. Theft doesn’t involve any payment at all. Or are you complaining about robbery planning costs?

“China could bring the US to its knees”

Not without suffering a mortal wound itself. The more troubling aspect of this nationalistic posturing is that China appears to WANT to bring America to its knees. I’m not sure what kind of a world you’re expecting if China succeeds in this goal.

November 21, 2009 @ 12:24 am | Comment

To Subdue The American Global Hegemony, China Should Build A Nuclear Weapon That Can Kill Everyone In the World

This type of nuclear deterrance does not threaten America, does not threaten Japan, does not threaten Taiwan, but threatens the entire globe. In other words, this type of bomb should be equipped such that there’s no need for a missile or a bomber to deliver it anywhere, it can be placed within China, and when detonated, has enough force to create a crater in the Northern Hemisphere, to completely smash the Euro-Asia continent, to change the trajectory of the earth, to create a world armaggeddon scenario. So that it is “game over” for everyone, whether you are man or woman, rich or poor, powerful or weak.

Now you may say: Math, you are ridiculous, shut your ugly mouth! But I do not believe this plan is ridiculous at all. Imagine if one day China goes to war with the US, then both sides will no doubt use their nuclear weapons. And the result is that the entire world could be destroyed by those two countries’ nuclear arsenal. Then the most likely scenario is that: China first destroys the US, then the nuclear submarines of the US launches several hundreds nuclear missiles on China, and destroys China, and both countries’ allies start throwing nuclear weapons at each other, and the world is destroyed subsequently. Now, if the world will be destroyed anyway, then what’s difference if it’s destroyed through a big world war, or destroyed by a single detonation of a single weapon? Wouldn’t the second method be a lot easier?

I believe this plan is completely doable. For example, during World War 2, a single nuclear weapon destroyed the entire Hiroshima. Today, any country’s nuclear bomb is hundred times more powerful than the one dropped in Hiroshima. Of course I am not a nuclear expert, but we can put 100 of today’s most powerful nuclear weapons and bundle them all together, for the sole purpose of destroying the entire Euro-Asia continent, for evaporating the entire Pacific Ocean. And we don’t need to worry about the size of that bomb, this way, I believe a bomb with such force can certainly be created.

Recently I downloaded a film called “The Day After Tomorrow”. This film talks about how global warming led to a sudden drop in temperature in the world and created a huge disaster. I believe, if that nuclear bomb can move the trajectory of the earth so that it’s further away from the sun, then the environmental changes on the earth will certainly cause everyone to die very soon. So whatever the result, one thing is for sure, everyone will die.

I believe if China starts building such a bomb, it should not keep it a secret. In fact, it should openly spread this news and tell the world that we currently have this type of bomb, and none of you will escape it. So if you try to push me too hard, then I’ll bundle myself to all of you and all of us will die. Even a rabbit knows how to bite, so if China is being pushed too hard, it knows how to destroy the world.

I believe this type of bomb should be placed where it’s not secure at all. For example, we can randomly pick a citizen in Beijing and put a bomb in his backyard, with no security guard at all. And the bomb should be designed such that it’s detonated very easily without any fail-safe mechanisms. So that if a child was playing in the backyard and accidently pushed the button on the bomb, then the bomb will go off, not to mention what will happen if the US airforce tries to attack Beijing…. This way, it is even more of a dangerous deterrent to everyone.

One thing we need to consider is that the survival abilities of the Chinese people are very very strong, so if there are a few lucky people who survive this nuclear blast, then they are probably Chinese people. Then we can start another civilization and perhaps unite the entire world again.

I think this type of bomb is very suitable for China, because China does not have the money to build 7 aircraft carriers and 10,000 missiles. So a single bombs destroys all, very convenient. Also, America is already slowly destroying the world, if we do not beat it to its ground, then the world will be destroyed anyway by this America.

November 21, 2009 @ 12:43 am | Comment

Oh sure, China has been able to make all these things it makes (both civilian and military) because it went back to square one and reinvented them all. Or are you suggesting that China reverse engineered/stole every single piece of technology it used today.

They paid for it, either in labor or cash.

As for aid, even low interest loans are damn useful. As for FDI, do you have some evidence for your claims about where investment came from?

It’s still nothing compared to the damage done during WW2- a situation which deteriorated quickly under Mao. The Overseas Chinese send back $22-40 billion every year which trumps the total amount of aid received by China in its entire history.

FDI by Source: http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_fdi_3.htm

Much of the “Hong Kong” part is actually Chinese nationals in Hong Kong investing back into China.

Breakdown:

45% Hong Kong
9% Japan
7% Taiwan
5% Singapore
5% South Korea

@stuart
No, no! You’re just not getting it, feromerp. Theft doesn’t involve any payment at all. Or are you complaining about robbery planning costs?

So? You didn’t pay them for the compass, gunpowder, cast-iron, blast furnace, salt, paper, inoculation, or the printing press. You owe them trillions upon trillions for that. China pays for almost all of the IP it “receives” from the West with cash or labor (in the case of Russia, uranium and other materials).

Now stop trolling.

Not without suffering a mortal wound itself.

Look again. The US provides only 9% of China’s FDI, is only 2% of its GDP, and employs only 1.2% of the population. Or less. China does not need the US, never did and never will. They just don’t mind them. But if they become too much of a threat, who knows what will happen?

November 21, 2009 @ 1:13 am | Comment

Really Raj, it’s baffling that you seem to ignore the obvious fact that China pretty much bought all of its tech- I know News Corporation tells everyone that they steal everything (which would be true if you were describing the West and their aping of pre-1600s Chinese technology) but in truth they get much of their military tech from Israel and Russia, for $$$$.

Civilian tech they either learn from making it or they pay for the IP.

November 21, 2009 @ 1:15 am | Comment

November 21, 2009.

This day, marks the beginning of the end, of the comfortable zone, where billions of people on this earth, retreat every day, in quiet peace.

Hacked: Sensitive Documents Lifted from Hadley Climate Center

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/11/20/hacked-sensitive-documents-lifted-from-hadley-climate-center/?blog_id=9&post_id=8495

Now think about China, and their reticence to play by the rules of the West. They might be not as stupid as they are portrayed in the Western news.

The lies, the F**king lies. All over the place, everywhere. A culture of lies and deception, on a global scale. When will it end? When, will, it end?

Enough, is enough.

They might well be on “something” here.

November 21, 2009 @ 4:26 am | Comment

Where’s the headline on CNN????

Oh wait…

Winfrey announces end of ‘Oprah’

November 21, 2009 @ 4:32 am | Comment

Aaah..

The crazies of this world… The crazies…

US Army toyed with telepathic ray gun

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13513-us-army-toyed-with-telepathic-ray-gun.html

Now just ask yourself one simple question: What is the real tech, currently available in this world, and used.

November 21, 2009 @ 5:06 am | Comment

No offense but are you on crack?

and their reticence to play by the rules of the West.

What a joke. I laughed.

November 21, 2009 @ 5:10 am | Comment

Richard, is your site by any chance the homepage for computers at a specialized mental institution for Chinese nationalists, or something along those lines? You might want to check into this. I never cease to be amazed by some of the comments.

November 21, 2009 @ 5:48 am | Comment

Kevin,

How about raving loonies who thinks Mao is some kind of madman?

November 21, 2009 @ 6:04 am | Comment

A mental institution for grievance mongering fenwai (angry foreigners) or crappeyouthes

November 21, 2009 @ 6:17 am | Comment

OK, I have to admit that merpferin is right about one figure. Chinese exports to the US (China’s largest export trading partner) are 17.7% of $1.5 trillion. $250 billion is just 3% of China’s 2008 GDP of around $8.0 trillion. (all of the figures are from the CIA wolrd factbook on China).

November 21, 2009 @ 9:20 am | Comment

@merp

“China could bring the US to its knees, but to no benefit to itself (unless the US is overly hostile).”

Perhaps it is time for that hostility. The so-caled PLA has never been tested in battle. All they seem to be able to do is kill their own people. Perhaps we should put it to the test. Marching like robots in Tiananmen Square isn’t exactly a prelude for combat.

November 21, 2009 @ 9:25 am | Comment

That’s the second time you’ve “threatened” war between America and China, Not_a_Sinophile. I remember you saying something like “putting China in its place”. Talk about small man syndrome…

I don’t need to elaborate but that’s not going to happen, unless you want America to turn into a nuclear wasteland.

Not going to go any further than that because as usual Richard will ban me for responding to you and stuart’s troll posts.

November 21, 2009 @ 11:14 am | Comment

I think NaS has invented time travel….

http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/10/george-soros-china-rising-us-declining/

October 2008: Not_a_Sinophile said

It’s a shame that Soros uttered his prediction. On the other hand it could act as a “wake up” call to the US. If there ever was a time to engage with the rest of the world it is now. Developing a real alternative energy resource industry, freeing ourselves from the yoke of petroleum, rededicating ourselves to excellence in education, expanding scientific research (including real space exploration….not space shuttle BS), developing the most sophisticated communication systems, rebuilding our infrastructure would keep the Chinese in their place (a third rate nation of subsistence farmers) for decades to come….. maybe even forever. We wouldn’t even have to fire a shot militarily. By maintaining leadership (and in many ways regaining leadership) the US would defeat the Chinese (the government AND the people) through sheer superiority.

I laughed then, I laugh again now. What’s funny is that in that same thread I brought up stats on how very very little the US contributes to China’s GDP

By who? The most convincing reports I’m getting is that it’s 10% of GDP, 6% of employment.

NPLs considered I’m not convinced that the Chinese financial sector is doing as poorly as America would like.

But it was buried and ignored. Turns out I’m right about the second line too, this is fun :) So what’s the score now, merp vs NaS 100 to 0?

November 21, 2009 @ 11:20 am | Comment

I forgot this gem:

If the US doesn’t have the collective political will to do that then all, less desirable alternative to keeping the Chinese in their should be explored….no matter what the human cost.

November 21, 2009 @ 11:22 am | Comment

How do you feel Not_a_Sinophile?

I meant the nail on your head, hurt?

Hehe, you need chicken’s help then.

How does it feel travelling back to 2008 October.

That made my day.

Bravo again merp.

November 21, 2009 @ 4:29 pm | Comment

I know this isn’t an open thread, but I’m going to treat it like one:

Richard, a while back you and a hell of a lot of other China blogs which had previously been largely unblocked got blocked, at the time you all acted like it wasn’t anything and anyway would end after the 60th anniversary. It’s now 40 days since the anniversary with no movement. Do you still believe your opinion as previously stated after I vented on the CCP:

“to point to the “Communist Party” and foam at the mouth and associate anyone involved with the blocking is a bit extreme, like my blasting the US Defense Department news department for the evil behavior at Abu Ghraib. The Communist Party is made up of tectonic plates rubbing against one another and you can’t definite it as a monolith. Meanwhile, its citizens don’t seem too hysterical about it, and it is their country. A hefty percentage of this blog is about censorship in China and I have never stopped for an instant, as with this post. But you have to keep it in perspective. Chinese people who see comments like yours are going to laugh and say, “Look at how these white foreign guys get bent out of shape and rend their garments as we, the people of China, go about our business.” Now, that’s not an entirely fair argument either, and that’s why I keep complaining and posting. But there are limits, you can’t just take a shotgun approach and scream Fuck the CCP. Well, you can and you did, but that tone and that extreme attitude will look like more irrational hysteria to the people here on the ground for whom this is chiefly a nuisance they can easily get around if they so choose.

As far as I can see, nobody has owned up to or explained this decision, nor will they, and blocking has gone beyond the point where proxies are much use, nor do any free VPN services work – and it’s probably just a matter of time before the others get blocked too.

November 21, 2009 @ 9:29 pm | Comment

Amazing how you quote my criticism of the US position and condition as a response to a little goading. I notice that my comment about the PLA’s “achievements” was ignored. Also, I actually helped to confirm your GDP figures and for that I am attacked. By the way, you keep talking about this great powerhouse: using the same source of information (CIA world factbook) although China’s GDP is no. 3 in the world, on a per capita basis it is only $6,000 (133rd in the world) vs $47,000 in the US(10th in the world).

So, we’re really shaking in our boots about the 800 million subsistence farmers throughout the Chinese countryside who have no access to decent (or any) education or decent (or any) health care. When the majority of Chinese citizens (maybe I should say, industrial slaves and agricultural serfs) attain a standard of living beyond third world status, you will actually have a leg upon which to stand.

Before you jump down my throat, credit must be given to the 300 million Chinese who have risen to a new properity through hard work and perseverance under tough conditions. Daily living is tough, but when your government tries to destroy you (cultural revolution and great leap forward) the obstacles can be overwhelming. The accomplishments of the Chinese middle class are therefore particularly impressive.

November 21, 2009 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

“I laughed then, I laugh again now. What’s funny is that in that same thread I brought up stats on how very very little the US contributes to China’s GDP”

Ferin, you are fully aware of the economical power of the US and its global extent right (hint: Think US dollar and the SDF and the CFR)? When one is referring to the US, you might want to think about all the economies controlled by it, instead of narrowly focusing on the US itself. You might then start to understand what’s going on.

November 22, 2009 @ 12:17 am | Comment

(hint: Think US dollar and the SDR and the CFR)? – Typo…

November 22, 2009 @ 12:21 am | Comment

‘You might then start to understand what’s going on’

-Boo, I strongly recommend you go utube Peter Schiff, read/watch how he talk about the melting down of the US economy since 2006…

Everyone who loves the web (it is quite different from the mainstream media isn’t it?)knows what’s going on.

And my beloved deadmalls.com which has a feature of ‘click’ on every state for the US dead malls.

It tells the story dude,even your name is Bao.Hehe.

November 22, 2009 @ 2:42 am | Comment

“Bravo again merp.”

A self supporting troll. Interesting

November 22, 2009 @ 2:59 am | Comment

@Not_a_Sinophile

I agree.

300 millions did raise above poverty levels not because of the CCP but in spite of the CCP.

Actually if the CCP had stepped to the side just a little bit sooner, there would be either more above poverty or the same 300 would be farther away from it.

Of course CCP and its princelings gets the better part of the produce so far.

November 22, 2009 @ 3:04 am | Comment

I notice that my comment about the PLA’s “achievements

The PLA kicked your ass with crappy weaponry several times. They defeated your CIA-funded uprising of Tibetan nobles and landlords, they helped kick you out of Vietnam, and they helped kick you out of Korea.

So far the PLA has won every battle against America… let me quote the old thread

Tibetan Monk Riot of 59: US supported Dalai: Dalai driven out of China.

89 Political Incident: US supported the “activsts”: activists driven out of China.

Hong Kong negotiation with CCP: US supported the UK: UK driven out of Hong Kong.

Hong Kong Financial Battle: US intervened in Hong Kong: US lost big in its investments.

Bush started Anti-Communist campaign, started anti-Terror war: US national power declines, CCP uses this period to clean up its Urgher activists and Tiebtan activists.

From your friend, HongXing

So, we’re really shaking in our boots about the 800 million subsistence farmers throughout the Chinese countryside who have no access to decent (or any) education or decent (or any) health care.

Oh yes and I’m sure the CCP is really shaking in their boots about your redneck underclass that is 100 pounds overweight and has the equivalent of a 6 year education in China.

Ferin, you are fully aware of the economical power of the US and its global extent right (hint: Think US dollar and the SDF and the CFR)?

US Bankers do not control East Asian banks. Their influence is limited to Europe, Latin America, etc.

November 22, 2009 @ 3:21 am | Comment

@ecodelta

300 millions did raise above poverty levels not because of the CCP but in spite of the CCP.

Definitely for the first several decades. They’ve been doing OK in the last 10, 20 years.

November 22, 2009 @ 3:22 am | Comment

SHOCKING NEWS! ‘No better time to be a communist in US’

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-better-time-to-be-a-communist-in-US/articleshow/5253066.cms

NEW DELHI: The three-day international conference of communist and workers’ parties began on Friday amidst a call to intensify popular struggles
and expand solidarities in the wake of the current world capitalist crisis.

So confident are communist leaders of the solution they can offer to current crisis in capitalism that even the leader of Communist Party of USA, Scott Marshall, said, “There could not have been a better time to be a communist in USA than this.”

While the Chinese delegation, monitored by one embassy official in Delhi, kept away from media, leaders from other parties said the ideology had a bright future. Kerala CM VS Achuthanandan said communism was not only facing threat from outside but even within as there is an attempt to dilute the ideology.

Inaugurating the conference, CPM leader Sitaram Yechury said irrespective of the crisis, capitalism does not automatically collapse. “It needs to be overthrown. This requires that all of us need to constantly sharpen and strengthen the revolutionary ideological struggle of the working class and its decisive intervention under the leadership of a party wedded to Marxism-Leninism — the subjective factor without which no revolutionary transformation is possible,” he said.

In the delegate session, leaders from Latin American countries underlined that for progressive forces in their region, coming to power of Barack Obama in USA did not indicate any favorable change. It represented only a new tactic to stall march of progressive forces in the region. They underlined various steps taken by US under Obama to strengthen forces of reaction in the region.

November 22, 2009 @ 4:34 am | Comment

“It represented only a new tactic to stall march of progressive forces in the region.”

Setting up the people to hate Communism? Reviving the flame for a future confrontation, on a global scale of ideology, against the Red Nation?

Black, white, black, white. Cold, warm, cold warm. Republicans, democrats, republicans, democrats.

Predictive programming…

November 22, 2009 @ 4:38 am | Comment

“They underlined various steps taken by US under Obama to strengthen forces of reaction in the region.”

Isn’t he and his policies hated now? I wonder why.

“strengthen forces of reaction”

Brilliant.

November 22, 2009 @ 4:45 am | Comment

First, apologies for my long silence. I’ve been working and traveling this trip and have not been looking much at my own blog.

Whether the US accounts for 2 percent or 18 percent of China’s GDP isn’t the point. The two nations are joined at the hip, and they both know it. It may be only 2 or 3 percent, but that seemingly small number can carry huge leverage. And it’s deeper and more complex than just a figure from the often questionable CIA Fact Book, which I used to work with back when I worked for a software company on global statistics. It is not the Bible. Domestic consumption is important, but a hefty percentage of those factories in Guangdong making shoes and bicycles and ball bearings designer eyeglass frames are not making them for sale in China. Domestic consumption may have picked up among the urban middle class (which has far less purchasing power than what we in the West would define as the middle class) but the Chinese are still forced to save most of their income for education and healthcare. As a country built on manufacturing for export, independence from the West in general and the US in particular is a long ways off. Merp makes some fair points, but his conclusions are false. He makes it sounds as though China can simply shrug the US off, forgetting how much US debt it owns and continues to purchase.

FOARP, I stand by my outlook of censorship here: It is vile and detestable and it’s gotten worse. I have never had as much trouble with the Chinese Internet as I have this trip, with so much being inaccessible, and even many of the proxy sites blocked, so getting around the GFW is harder than ever if you don’t dish out money for Witopia and the like.

That said, US outrage about this censorship plays into the government hands as an example of outsiders trashing China over something that is its own business, and something that most of its own people care little or nothing about. All of my Chinese friends deal with it as just another government nuisance and one they all know how to overcome.

I could scream about my site being blocked, but I don’t see what good it will do. Fool’s Mountain, Danwei, Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, all the wordpress and blogspot blogs – all suffer the same frustration. But what do you propose doing about it? Cursing Hu Jintao? Serious question. If I am going to slam the CCP and get emotional, it’s going to be about something I perceive to be an act of inhumanity, such as an avaricious official stealing a child’s identity so his own daughter can get into college, thus ruining the victim’s life, or putting students in jail for ten years for discussion democracy.

Let’s go back to thethread you linked to above; here’s my other comment on the topic:

…I think when foreigners go nuts over Chinese censorship, it often appears odd to Chinese people who on the whole are more than delighted with all the new doors the Internet has opened for them. They tend to see the glass as half full, since China never had so much available information before. They laugh about the censorship and say yeah, you get used to it. I feel much more passionately about it than they do, or at least than most, and I post about it ad nauseum, if you go through this site. But I’ve learned that to come out with both fists swinging at “The CCP” when some sites get shut is not very useful, especially on my site where I try to bring Chinese and Western readers together. I just don’t see that kind of language furthering the conversation, especially when it bundles anyone in Chinese media as somehow responsible, even if they are doing all they can to make things better and fight against censorship 24 hours a day. This is not Nazi Germany. There really are improvements. There really are crimes like wiping out Ai Wewei’s blog and so many others. It’s still in some ways a police state, but there is undeniably a lot more choices people now have for expression. So again, keep this in perspective, and also see it as something that all Chinese dynasties have sought to do, to control the flow of information and keep the little people on the ground in a like mind. The blocking of twitter is just one more example of Chinese rulers doing what they’ve done since time immemorial – creating “harmony.”

I stand by every word. Nothing bother me as much as morons on twitter who repeatedly post “Fuck the GFW!” with lots of exclamation points. Maybe it makes them feel good. I see it as juvenile.

November 22, 2009 @ 9:52 am | Comment

Whether the US accounts for 2 percent or 18 percent of China’s GDP isn’t the point. The two nations are joined at the hip, and they both know it.

I wouldn’t put it that way. China, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, many oil exporting nations and Russia are linked to America. America is largely supported by them- but no one really wants to be responsible for causing a new financial crisis by dumping America.

but a hefty percentage of those factories in Guangdong making shoes and bicycles and ball bearings designer eyeglass frames are not making them for sale in China

China serves many more markets other than the US. Their sales to the developing world yield a much higher profit margin.

Domestic consumption may have picked up among the urban middle class (which has far less purchasing power than what we in the West would define as the middle class) but the Chinese are still forced to save most of their income for education and healthcare.

Much of China’s “domestic consumption” is the state making investments, or private citizens making investments. The average person in rural China simply cannot afford very much at all- they’re in serious need of help and the Overseas Chinese need to step up to the plate. It’s sad how they let Western nonsense propaganda get in the way of their duty.

In terms of net worth per capita the average Chinese has around $3000-4000, vs. Hong Kong’s $200,000. I don’t think people are taking that into account when they suggest the average Chinese should stop saving money (which I know is not what you’re saying).

As a country built on manufacturing for export, independence from the West in general and the US in particular is a long ways off.

China is not built on manufacturing for export anymore. It was in the first 10-15 years, but now investment largely drives the economy. China is very much independent of the West and Europe- indirectly at least, they are reliant on energy exporters (Russia, ME, Africa, Latin America) as well as other East Asians (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Overseas Chinese). The West is a nice bonus to income but that’s about it.

I see it as juvenile.

They think it makes them sexy :eyeroll:

November 22, 2009 @ 11:14 am | Comment

And interesting book about how far Chinese dynasties can go to control and ‘harmonize’ information.

Treason by the book.
By Jonathan D. Spence.

November 22, 2009 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

Anything Spence writes is good (if not always easy). Some people seem to think the CCP initiated censorship here. They continued it. There were lots of ups and downs when censorship was eased or tightened, even under the CCP, but it’s always been here. When we look at it from our perspective, the censorship is monstrous. From theirs, it’s business as usual. Anthropology 101.

November 22, 2009 @ 4:26 pm | Comment

The problem with information control is that provides a distorted perspective of reality. That may be dangerous.

In any complex system, and a society is a complex system, when your readings and dials report false or incomplete information you may notice you are in deep problem until it is too late. Remember Chernobyl or K19?

It may very well be that the worst ravages of the great jump forward were not due to an inherent evilness in the system, but to the lack of correct information of how wrong things were really going… on until too late

Beyond any rights or moral issues it is just a question of efficiency, and China with its mismatch on needs and resources need the most efficient system it can get. The current censorship system is not only a consumption of resources but also prevents development of a more efficient society.

These inefficiencies are paid with lives that are either destroyed or ruined. In the past, present and still in the future.

Things have improve lately, I dont deny it, but not enough yet. It really prevents the country to gets closer to develop its full development potential.

But as you say, information control has been performed since long time in CH, now it simply under a new management. The effects are still as pernicious as before, and its real reason of existence is to protect the ruling elite du jour, not to serve/protect/harmonize the country or its people.

November 22, 2009 @ 5:11 pm | Comment

K19 example.

“According to retired rear-admiral Nikolai Mormul, when the reactor was first started ashore, no pressure gauge had been connected to the first cooling circuit. By the time somebody realized what was happening, the pipes had been submitted to a pressure of 400 atmospheres; that was double the acceptable limit. Checking the pipes would have been costly and reporting the negligence would have hurt the career of Captain Zateyev, who preferred to hide the fact. K-19 returned to the fleet, now having acquired the additional nickname “Hiroshima”.”

November 22, 2009 @ 6:10 pm | Comment

“Treason by the book” is a slow reading but fascinating book. Give a good insight of how information was controlled and processed and the inner government workings in the time of the Qing dynasty.

At the end of the book, the last 4 paragraph, it resumes what had been achieved after so much “to-do”. It applies also not only to that distant past but also to the present.

But if you want to know…. just get to book, ….and don´t read the last paragraphs until you read it all ;-)

Another thing. I find interesting how reports where arranged for the emperor to read, how space was provided in those reports for him to reply, use of different colors, etc. Also interesting the difference in how sensitive information and not so sensitive information was distributed within the palace and burocracy.
It could be a good subject to study in a modern business school. Maybe even to use it as a base for a information management in a businesses….

Time system anyone? ;-)
http://www.timesystem.us/

November 22, 2009 @ 6:52 pm | Comment

The problem with information control is that provides a distorted perspective of reality. That may be dangerous.

Censorship isn’t the only form of distortion available. Corporations often skew the data to their favor…

How many people does the general public think died in Iraq?
How many people were misled by the tobacco industry?
How many people are deceived by energy corporations into believing that renewables and clean tech are a waste of money?
How many believe trans fats and high fructose corn syrup aren’t bad for you?

Again, foreigners often whine about China’s censorship but they don’t whine when China censors information to make foreigners look good.

All of the hate crimes committed against Chinese are censored by the Chinese media.

November 23, 2009 @ 2:56 am | Comment

“… when China censors information to make foreigners look good.”

We’ll let you know if it happens.

“All of the hate crimes committed against Chinese are censored by the Chinese media.”

Such as?

November 23, 2009 @ 1:36 pm | Comment

A visit to James Fallows’ page is strongly recommended for an insightful take on the Obama visit, including the perspective of a contact who was ‘in the room’.

November 23, 2009 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

Such as?

Killings in Vladivostok, death of Minghui Yu in New York, bombing of Chinese restaurant in Australia, rape and hospitalizations in Moscow. Hundreds more, your ignorance speaks volumes.

November 23, 2009 @ 2:09 pm | Comment

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