China in Africa

Another indispensable Sinica podcast over at Popup Chinese. Gady Epstein, Kaiser Kuo, Shannon Van Sant and Jeremy Goldkorn help clear up some of the myths and memes surrounding this multi-headed subject.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 119 Comments

This is a perfect opportunity to bring the comment I’d already left at Sinica (excellent site, btw) to a wider audience:

“Jeremy was typically upbeat about China’s impact in Africa, and his argument about scrappy Fujian businessman and a culture of entrepreneurship was well made.

I was slightly disappointed that Shannon didn’t talk about China’s blatant threat to cut diplomatic ties and put investments on hold if Michael Sata had been elected in 2006. That tells you a lot about how much China interferes with – and disresprects – weaker nations’ democratic processes. How Sata lost that election remains a mystery. Or does it? It would have been good to hear Shannon’s take on the allegations related to Sata’s defeat. Pity.

The bottom line however – a point also made in the podcast – is that China is in Africa for business. The Motherland is not there for the disingenuous so-called ‘win-win’ deal; nor is she there for the benefit of Africa and Africans. And China is certainly not in Africa with a view to pulling a desperately impoverished continent up by its bootstraps. The Chinese are in Africa strictly for what they can garner, either personally or in China’s national interest.

At least the panel accepted that there is doubt about what China’s presence in Africa will mean long term. That pleases me, because it means that the debate has to stay alive until such time as no doubt remains, one way or the other.

I have serious misgivings about the state of the Sino-African relationship 10/20 years down the line. All this positive talk of infrastructure building ignores the strategically self-serving nature and zero-sum mentality that still underpins Chinese dealings. Apologists for the China model fail to ask themselves who the real beneficiary of the infrastructure (transportation networks in particular) will be.

Let me help.

The road and rail networks will connect Chinese-controlled ports under construction on the coast with resource extraction locations in the interior. Their very own network of exploitation with a Chinatown every 100k along the road to really turn the screw on small African business. I was pleased to see this glaringly obvious strategy getting some coverage on a few blogs of late, including Brautigam’s (not that she would be a subscriber, of course).

Too pessimistic? Maybe. But it could happen this way, which is why we need to keep this discussion alive.

Africa really deserves a break; and they’re not about to get one from China in my humble opinion.”

August 7, 2010 @ 2:47 pm | Comment

“The bottom line however – a point also made in the podcast – is that China is in Africa for business. The Motherland is not there for the disingenuous so-called ‘win-win’ deal; nor is she there for the benefit of Africa and Africans. And China is certainly not in Africa with a view to pulling a desperately impoverished continent up by its bootstraps. The Chinese are in Africa strictly for what they can garner, either personally or in China’s national interest.”

That truly is disappointing because as we know businesses outside of China are really just charitable non-profits, who only go overseas to help the local population at the expense of profit. Shame on you, China.

August 7, 2010 @ 4:04 pm | Comment

“Africa really deserves a break”

One that the Romans, British, Indians, Malagasy, French, Germans, Italians, Arabs, Egyptians, and whatever else have you could not deliver to them in thousands of years.

In fact none of their own leaders could. They have a better bet with China than anyone else really.

August 7, 2010 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

^ Are you against capitalism in general?

August 7, 2010 @ 8:32 pm | Comment

In re: “The Chinese are in Africa strictly for what they can garner, either personally or in China’s national interest.”

Which is exactly as it should be. The only people who can pull Africa up out of the quagmire that many (not all) African countries are in, are the Africans themselves. Any investment or aid project for Africa should be studied with the jaundiced eye, and the ‘what’s in it for us’? To do otherwise violates common sense. It is up to the Africans to ensure that whatever they sell to the Chinese represents a fair return on the concessions they have made, and is spread about a bit more evenly than is presently the norm.

August 8, 2010 @ 12:54 am | Comment

It’s good to have this debate. Any criticism of “generous” Euro-American “aid” would automatically make you a “fascist” pariah or “Communist Chinese wumaodang” in the eyes of Westerners. Hopefully China’s involvement in Africa will be productive and beneficial for individual Africans.

August 8, 2010 @ 3:32 am | Comment

“Are you against capitalism in general?”

I think I’m starting to hate all -isms

August 8, 2010 @ 5:12 am | Comment

@ feromerp

“One that the Romans, British, Indians, Malagasy, French, Germans, Italians, Arabs, Egyptians, and whatever else have you could not deliver to them in thousands of years.”

I’m genuinely impressed. It was not until your second comment that you invoked tu quoque. Now if only your first comment had meant something…

August 8, 2010 @ 10:01 am | Comment

“[Bill] Gates said that the political process hasn’t shown itself to be very good at handling issues that “are complex enough that even the average elite voter has a hard time getting their mind around things”–issues like tax code, controlling medical costs, improving education or relations with China.

These things are just complicated enough that the main people who understand them are people who are biased about them,” Gates said. “The number of experts in these things that are unbiased is so few. So how does society, a democracy that has worked so well, make some of the tough trade-offs that, say to avoid climate change, that need to be made.”

August 8, 2010 @ 12:26 pm | Comment

“It was not until your second comment that you invoked tu quoque. ”

You might have to read up on the definition. I was just pointing out that where others failed, China is more likely succeed- that is in improving African living standards.

August 8, 2010 @ 1:50 pm | Comment

“China is more likely succeed- that is in improving African living standards.”

I’ll believe it when I see it. No evidence thus far. If China really WANTS to raise living standards in Africa then they should stop insisting on so much immigrant labour for infrastructure projects. It is in this area that analogies with the deals China had with Japan two decades ago fall down.

August 9, 2010 @ 5:56 am | Comment

“If China really WANTS to raise living standards in Africa then they should stop insisting on so much immigrant labour for infrastructure projects.”

They do hire locals for many jobs. It varies from place to place- because they can keep Chinese workers penned in a compound for efficiency, costs are lower. That and sometimes there is a labor shortage in the countries they are working in.

August 9, 2010 @ 6:13 am | Comment

Also in many cases local enterprises or governments simply do not have the expertise to build the infrastructure in question or they would have already done it; secondly the Chinese consortiums are simply used to directing Chinese labor and not local labor, third there is a language barrier.

August 9, 2010 @ 6:14 am | Comment

In fact this DFID report is suggesting that China not only hires local labor, but they primarily compete with European/South African companies that formerly dominated the African construction market. Is it any coincidence that we have so many Western commentators jumping the gun and screaming about China’s aid to Africa?

I don’t think so.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dfid.gov.uk/pubs/files/chinese-investment-africa-summary.pdf

and I quote:

“Very few local companies in the countries surveyed have the capacity for large-scale projects and rarely find themselves competing with Chinese companies in the early stages of the latter’s market penetration”.

“Human rights” concerns indeed. China and Africa are dealing with very, very sophisticated neo-imperialists. I think they may have missed the memo- spheres of influence don’t formally exist in the modern age.

August 9, 2010 @ 6:26 am | Comment

Isn’t it nice that Merp has of late been such a wonderful psychological specimen, an archetype of the nationalist in his natural state. The almost crystalline perfection of the way in which his decision-making process has been so clearly laid bare for all to see, like the rings of a tree-tunk, or a butterfly’s wings pinned on an entomologist’s table. To every issue, he will let his instinct’s decide first what his position will be, and then he will come up with the exact argument to match it.

Our first example, that of Chinese women marrying foreign men:

“a lot of what drives white males to “marry” Chinese women is a racial domination fetish, what she gets in return is $$$$”

Firstly, like all men everywhere, Merp carries the inheritance of our cave-men ancestors, for whom women were property to be fought over and captured, and who therefore saw the women of their grouping as ‘theirs’ and have an instinctual dislike of seeing ‘outsiders’ getting along with ‘their’ women. Most men, however, can see past this, and know this instinct to for the primitiveness that it is. Not Merp, since his emotional response is negative, he must justify this. Of course, he then reaches for the nearest thing to hand, the thing which his Mainland Chinese education has made him reach for almost as a reflex – imperialism and racism. Nevermind that the same thing is equally true and not true of marriages between Chinese, and between Chinese men and foreign women, he cannot even except the union between a foreign man and a Chinese women as a bona fide marriage, and has to put it in speech-marks.

Next up, Tibet -

Some Tibetans appreciate the changes, some do not. But don’t forget that some Tibetans joined the PLA, were Red Guards (particularly enthusiastic ones), and are part of the local government and police force in Tibet.

“The extent of the destruction and looting of monasteries and shrines in Tibet in the last half century is a unique interpretation of ‘preservation’.”

Most of which was done by former Tibetan serfs who were mistreated.

His training has taught him to never accept a negative interpretation of CCP conduct, therefore the smashing of Tibetan monasteries on the instructions of Chinese leaders? Conducted by Tibetans, because of the behaviour of their former Lamiist overlords. Nevermind that no actual history supports this, instead, yes, some of the Red Guards (who would have been too young to remember the Dalai Lama’s rule, but don’t let facts like this spoil things) acting on the urging of Mao and their brethren in China proper, destroyed the manasteries. Of course, were I to play the same game and say that the British armies which marched through China in the 19th century included Chinese in their ranks, and were supplied entirely by Chinese merchants, and that as a result the Chinese themselves were responsible for, say, the destruction of the Summer Palace, this would be an a-historical nonsense. Such logical problems, of course, do not concern Merp.

Next, Chinese investment in Africa -

““Human rights” concerns indeed. China and Africa are dealing with very, very sophisticated neo-imperialists. I think they may have missed the memo- spheres of influence don’t formally exist in the modern age.”

Never mind that there is, in fact, almost no difference between what the Chinese are doing and what British, French, American, Belgian, South African etc. companies have been doing in independent African countries now for decades. China is doing it, Merp see himself as a member of the Chinese tribe, and therefore Chinese involvement must be better in some way. In truth it is probably no better and no worse, but if the situation were reversed, and we were talking about western investment in say, Laos, or the recent crisis on the Korean peninsula, suddenly “spheres of influence” would pop back into existence again.

I write this not as an answer to Merp, because I do not think a reasonable conversation can be had with the man (actually, I don’t know if he is a man, but the clear desperation evident in his comments about western men and Chinese women marks him out as one, albeit a lonely one) but as an admonition to those for whom China is always bad. This is nowhere more evident than in the issue of China in Africa. Let me ask you, if ‘humanitarian investment’ is what we have been doing in Africa in the fifty years since widespread independence (and I don’t believe it is), why hasn’t it worked? If Chinese involvement is rather more mercantile, why is this necessarily a bad thing?

In fact, I support Chinese investment in Africa, just as I support British, American, German, French, Japanese etc. investment, as profitable activity, from which the locals may benefit to a degree.

August 9, 2010 @ 8:21 am | Comment

FOARP, thanks for that. I think you hit the nail(s) on the head.

August 9, 2010 @ 8:37 am | Comment

Firstly, like all men everywhere, Merp carries the inheritance of our cave-men ancestors, for whom women were property to be fought over and captured

As a white male I would absolutely expect you to defend the status quo. Rather unlike the cariacture you have painstakingly described, I am reacting *against* said cave-man instincts- the same cave man instincts which make white males think “Asian” women are their exclusive sexual property won through tribal conquest.

the thing which his Mainland Chinese education has made him reach for almost as a reflex – imperialism and racism.

Again you fall short, because my education is purely Taiwanese and American.

Nevermind that the same thing is equally true and not true of marriages between Chinese, and between Chinese men and foreign women

Would it make you happy if I told you that I frown upon the practice of some Taiwanese men of hunting for brides in China? Or rich men from cities looking for mistresses among poorer rural Chinese? And that Taiwanese men mail ordering brides from Southeast Asia is absolutely vomit-inducing?

His training has taught him to never accept a negative interpretation of CCP conduct, therefore the smashing of Tibetan monasteries on the instructions of Chinese leaders?

You are trying to make the Tibetans appear as children- easily influence by the CCP. That’s simply not the truth, Tibetans are not children or castrated pacifists. It is true that they were indoctrinated, but the fact remains is that many of them enthusiastically participated in the Cultural Revolution and that regardless of their ethnic background, Communists are Communists and Red Guards are Red Guards. Especially because the PRC is a multi-ethnic nation.

the destruction of the Summer Palace, this would be an a-historical nonsense.

Pure nonsense argument. My claims are based in fact, your hypothetical is indeed ahistorical nonsense as you describe.

Never mind that there is, in fact, almost no difference between what the Chinese are doing and what British, French, American, Belgian, South African etc. companies have been doing in independent African countries now for decades.

You just lost all credibility to anyone who knows anything about history. Apartheid slave labor and Belgian Congo ring any bells? But as usual your “white is right Europeans are perfect” propaganda drowns out all rational discourse.

therefore Chinese involvement must be better in some way

Dead wrong again. Even if I were not Chinese, I would assume Chinese involvement is better. This is because of track record and culture, not tribalism which you are displaying right now. You make the error in assuming Chinese people are like Westerners. They most certainly are not. Upon further inspection, it seems like I am closer to the truth.

but if the situation were reversed, and we were talking about western investment in say, Laos, or the recent crisis on the Korean peninsula, suddenly “spheres of influence” would pop back into existence again.

I have never said anything about Western “investment” in Laos. I have, however, mentioned Operation Menu and UXO. If you can’t draw the line, in your mind, between bombing raids and foreign aid I think you have been reading too much PoMo.

Let me ask you, if ‘humanitarian investment’ is what we have been doing in Africa in the fifty years since widespread independence (and I don’t believe it is), why hasn’t it worked?

Because the West’s involvement is of a completely different nature than China’s? Because you filled tires with gasoline, strapped them to the necks of their elected leaders, and lit them on fire? Because you used brutal military repression and divide-and-conquer tactics to weaken and demoralize a whole race of people? Because your racial arrogance and history of bad blood sowed distrust and mutual hatred between Europeans and Africans?

I don’t know, pick one.

August 9, 2010 @ 8:39 am | Comment

Mike that article is the pure and unadulterated dreck and blood libel I’d expect from the telegraph.

From the article:

“It was given three times as much to fight Aids and malaria than South Africa, one of the worst-affected countries.”

Lets ignore the fact that China has 27 times South Africa’s population. In fact China has a larger population than all of Africa combined. Yet SA receives far more funding than any single Chinese province.

Also ignored by the article is the fact that artemisinin is essentially a Chinese drug.

He goes on to quote: “The $1 billion awarded to China could have been used by the poorest countries to distribute 67 million anti-malarial bed nets”

The $1 billion awarded to China is also probably less than what the G8 spends on internet pornography and alcohol in a day.

“China has been eligible for the money because its enormous population means that its per capita income, the key criteria in assessing grants, remains on the level of countries such as Bolivia and Cameroon.”

So in other words, he is implying that the CCP has far outdone any developing country in the world in terms of mitigating the utter devastation of AIDS and malaria. Interesting.

“The Foreign Office called on China to take a bigger share of the aid burden. “With economic development comes international responsibilities and we look to China to play her part in addressing international challenges,” said a spokesman.”

In other words, foreigners are shouting at China to contribute to a Western-led fund, so that the West can benefit from the PR. Why on earth would they do that when they can go directly to the victims in Africa and help them out as they already do? You have to hand it to the telegraph, few other publications can so succinctly demonstrate anti-China bias.

August 9, 2010 @ 8:57 am | Comment

I had read it here first http://www.fightingmalaria.org/news.aspx?id=1480

August 9, 2010 @ 9:06 am | Comment

No, sorry – here. Perils of using Google to find something half remembered….
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/07/19/chinas_billion_dollar_aid_appetite

August 9, 2010 @ 9:07 am | Comment

Despicable hate speech. I suppose poor Chinese don’t deserve medicine, even though Chinese people invented this medicine anyway and then more or less handed out the IP free to everyone on the fucking planet?

I love it when pundits shriek at China because they’re “oh so rich” and can thus afford to do everything on its own. The funniest thing is that these are the same “don’t be fooled by Shanghai” pricks who love sneering at China’s poverty.

August 9, 2010 @ 9:12 am | Comment

“few other publications can so succinctly demonstrate anti-China bias.”

Few other wu mao/fenqing see so much anti-China bias where non exists.

Returning to Africa, the point is that China has yet to demonstrate any WILLINGNESS to incorporate training and knowledge sharing among local people as part of the deals they’re doing. Of course some local labour gets used, but generally for shovelling dirt under the scornful gaze of Chinese foremen and project managers. And the numbers of Chinese labourers imported to do jobs that could – and should – be done by Africans is staggering. And do African businesses benefit from this huge influx of new customers? Do they fuck – because the cheap Chinese products and shopkeepers come with the labour to not only take away a potential windfall for locals, but to undercut them as well.

I understand the purely pragmatic economic reasons for this, but every one of them is detrimental to the cause of greater living standards for Africans.

Mercantilism on this scale is 21st century colonial exploitation. Period.

August 9, 2010 @ 9:47 am | Comment

“Returning to Africa, the point is that China has yet to demonstrate any WILLINGNESS to incorporate training and knowledge sharing among local people as part of the deals they’re doing.”

Read the link I sent you. It was published by your own government. It says specifically that local engineers reported that they had learned from Chinese companies. Note that it also suggests that they were unable to acquire much knowledge from infrastructure built by Western firms because the technology was much too advanced, and the industry far too capital intensive.

“Of course some local labour gets used”

The report says 85-95% of the labor in three countries comprised of local hires, many filling management and administrative positions. The following sentence you wrote is pure propaganda and bold faced lies.

“could – and should – be done by Africans is staggering.”

The Africans can and have been doing these jobs for decades, as the report clearly states. It’s just now that they’re getting even more of these jobs done with Chinese financing, but lets disregard that and take your foaming at the mouth anti-Chinese polemic as fact.

“And do African businesses benefit from this huge influx of new customers?”

It depends on the nation and what businesses they have in place already. Regardless, all locals benefit from schools, roads and hospitals.

“because the cheap Chinese products and shopkeepers come with the labour to not only take away a potential windfall for locals, but to undercut them as well.”

Unfounded, hysterical anti-Chinese screed aside. There was research done on this, the Westerners found that “cheap Chinese products” is better than “no products” and they are again undercutting the business of foreigners and not indigenous African businesses, who are also benefiting from favorable policies for African exports to China. This is exactly why we have you and the Telegraph posting blood libel and hate speech.

August 9, 2010 @ 9:56 am | Comment

MERP, you have still not addressed the basic question: Why should the world’s second larges economy receive any foreign assistance funds?

August 9, 2010 @ 9:57 am | Comment

I hope you are not serious.

It’s because the per capita income, and thus per capita tax revenue, still remains low.

Comparing China to a nation of 1-2 million is simply mind boggling. India receives tons of foreign aid despite being the 4th largest economy in the world. So the obvious answer to your question is “because they need it”.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:02 am | Comment

and please before anyone launches into some bitter tirade about China’s forex reserves or some other incomprehensible gibberish remember that Chinese workers worked billions upon billions upon billions of hours to earn that money and still there is a long way to go as far as development goes.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:09 am | Comment

““because they need it”.”
They don’t need it – they can get it. It’s like the tax breaks I can get for certain things…I apply and I get them but I don’t need them.
I put the links up to suggest that China might not have the African interests so closely to heart as one of your comments suggestes. China can, for all I care, apply for any grant it knows it can get – that’s only natural. However, it will be judged by others on it’s actions…just like India was (I mean, a country that’s getting an aircraft carrier and still accepting aid money from the UK? C’mon…. ;-) ). China is the 2nd largest (by it’s own admission) economy, sent a man into space (because a space program is cheap as chips, eh?), hosted the Olympics and is hosting the 2010 Expo really can’t afford to look after it’s own people, can it?
And of course China is squeaky clean in it’s dealings with Africa…http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/07/hu-jintaos-son-linked-to-african-corruption-probe/
And yes, I know the west is the same – but I’m not saying the west is better for Africa….

August 9, 2010 @ 10:25 am | Comment

“I put the links up to suggest that China might not have the African interests so closely to heart as one of your comments suggestes.”

The article doesn’t suggest anything, it’s pure propaganda. China may withdraw a measly 1 billion from a fund, while giving tens of billions to Africa in medical supplies, labor, trade subsidies, soft loans, debt forgiveness, scholarships, you name it. All that article proves is that Chow is a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite.

Then you are also unfairly judging India. This is like you saying Africa doesn’t need any more money because they’re sitting on an huge pile of diamonds and gold. That’s just ridiculous. I guess after the 9-11 attacks New Yorkers didn’t need any donations from concerned Americans because those guys are just a bunch of rich bankers anyway. Pure spite and it shows your true colors.

And that article you posted is an investigation, not a conviction. If you are going to make charges and allegations you have to back them up in court (with facts, not screaming and shouting and mob justice) instead of simply assuming the worst just because you personally hate the suspect.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:38 am | Comment

Rather, a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite that wants to see impoverished Chinese die of malaria

August 9, 2010 @ 10:39 am | Comment

Okay Merp, you crossed the line again. What a shame, you were doing so well. Your comments are again being monitored before showing up. Your choice.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:40 am | Comment

“The article doesn’t suggest anything, it’s pure propaganda. China may withdraw a measly 1 billion from a fund, while giving tens of billions to Africa in medical supplies, labor, trade subsidies, soft loans, debt forgiveness, scholarships, you name it.”

“If you are going to make charges and allegations you have to back them up in court (with facts, not screaming and shouting and mob justice) instead of simply assuming the worst just because you personally hate the suspect.”

An expression about geese and ganders springs to mind…

:-)

August 9, 2010 @ 10:53 am | Comment

“This is exactly why we have you and the Telegraph posting blood libel and hate speech.”

Oh, grow up, ffs.

After some promising comments, you’ve reverted to type, old sport. Nothing but a list of resent-filled ad-hominems and groundless character assassinations.

I’m asking China to show that they really have African interests at heart, such that Chinese investment might pull Africa out of desperate poverty, just as Japanese-led investment helped China to it’s present economic status. There is no evidence to suggest that the Chinese government have any such intentions despite all the friendly ‘brothers’ rhetoric. And I for one question the sentiment behind that rhetoric. If it transpires 10 years from now that African nations have made the progress that China has itself made, then I’ll be the first to sing China’s praises.

But I doubt that’s going to happen, old sport. I see this because I was fortunate enough never to have my focus narrowed by Chinese nationalist blinkers.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:53 am | Comment

“An expression about geese and ganders springs to mind…”

Google it. Info is widely available. If you still cannot find it I will Google you a website with an animated Googling tutorial.

“I’m asking China to show that they really have African interests at heart, such that Chinese investment might pull Africa out of desperate poverty”

Easy because making Africans happy is the easiest way to ensure you have good business relations with them in the future. China is simply in no position to bilk them, unless you think Africans are stupid or something.

August 9, 2010 @ 10:57 am | Comment

Your entire posting record seems to be going off on a complete tangent (“talking of China’s drugs in Africa…” how broad a topic is that?) as an excuse to flood the comments section with accusatory articles that criticize China often containing unsubstantiated claims against China. It doesn’t even seem like you are reading these articles to completion, or even consider the source (as long as it’s not Chinese, I suppose).

However, Dr Mira Shiva of the Initiative for Health Equity and Society (IHES) told TOI that both India and China being large manufacturers of generics, multinational firms would look to discredit the two countries and label their drugs as substandard, so that they would have greater access to the African markets. She warned against the two countries trying to run each other down before ascertaining the full facts in the case to rule out any orchestration, but added that India ought to be more careful to ensure the quality of the drugs exported as well as sold domestically.

It’s amazing how, thanks to you, we have gone from a discussion about Chinese infrastructure projects in Africa to the quality of Indian drugs.

If I had done this Richard would have already banned me.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:07 am | Comment

“while giving tens of billions to Africa in medical supplies”
http://allafrica.com/stories/201004150984.html
“The working visit which preceded a similar one planned for India was a pragmatic step jointly taken by NAFDAC and the Senate Committee on Health to tackle the hydra-headed problem of influx of fake drugs and unwholesome processed food in which some unscrupulous Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been identified.”

Heaps more online – some even in Chinese media sources….

August 9, 2010 @ 11:08 am | Comment

If I had done this Richard would have already banned me.

False. Only when you get hysterical and/or personal.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:32 am | Comment

Merp, please read the opening line of my first post on this thread. Up there, comment 16. In fact, let’s make it easier for you…

“They have a better bet with China than anyone else really.”

My subsequent contributions show that China cares about Africa like the west cares about Africa. Infrastructure doesn’t show anyone caring – not like the western colonialists didn’t indulge in a spot of railway building or harbour building or even town building. That China does it doesn’t suggest to me that they care about Africa anymore than the British did, than the French did, than the Italians or any other colonialist. China is accepting money by exploiting a loophole – this suggests a rather cynical action. It does not, therefore, completely support your assertion about China’s altruism.

How those examples lead you to think that I am “…a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite that wants to see impoverished Chinese die of malaria” is a bit of a head scratcher, assuming you mean me.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:42 am | Comment

“My subsequent contributions show that China cares about Africa like the west cares about Africa.”

Even if that is what you were saying, and even if it were true (which it is not), it is irrelevant to what I posted. Having a better bet with China doesn’t mean China allegedly “cares” about Africa, but that other factors are involved which work in Africa’s favor. For one China doesn’t have the same blinding pity complex when it comes to dealing with Africans. Their approach is different, for better or worse, but I say better.

“China is accepting money by exploiting a loophole – this suggests a rather cynical action. ”

There is no loophole. Read the article and then do some independent research yourself. In fact there are two good comments that explain why this “loophole” isn’t a loophole. The supposed “loophole” is this- China’s per capita income falls within the specific range to get the aid they are offered by the program.

Canadalex posted this in the comments:

“”(China stays in this lower-middle-income category because its huge population keeps per capita figures down.)”

It presents this fact as if China were gaming the system by having a huge population. No, in fact there is a reason we use per-capita figures to judge income. Otherwise we can make claims like India is over 2x as rich as Switzerland (GDP).

““…a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite that wants to see impoverished Chinese die of malaria””

Of course I don’t mean you. I made that exceedingly clear. I was talking about Chow: the full quote is All that article proves is that Chow is a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite..

See, you are not reading the whole post or article, just skimming them for tibdits that suit your biases, and then spamming anyone who isn’t anti-China with them. Then you act like the onus is upon us to prove you’re wrong, well I’ll take the lazy way out and refer you to China investor or First Adviser’s posts on the FP comments section because they refute the article thoroughly. They are too long to copy and paste here.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:52 am | Comment

Merp rattles my belief that Plamenatz’s definition of Eastern nationalism is bullshit.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:52 am | Comment

Explain please.

August 9, 2010 @ 11:54 am | Comment

@Twisted Colour

It should. Especially since there are tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of Chinese just like merp.

August 9, 2010 @ 1:07 pm | Comment

What kind of final solution do you propose, RP?

August 9, 2010 @ 1:27 pm | Comment

and if there were hundreds of millions of Chinese people like me the world be a perfect utopia!

August 9, 2010 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

“What kind of final solution do you propose, RP?”

More straw than a rich donkey’s stable.

August 9, 2010 @ 2:18 pm | Comment

@Merp – Close but no cigar: If there were hundreds of millions of Chinese like you, the world would be a perfect Fruitopia!

August 9, 2010 @ 7:03 pm | Comment

@RP: I hope you don’t subscribe to Plamenatz’s rubbish. I was just being a prick towards Merp.

Sorry Merp, I’m a prick.

@FOARP: Heh!

August 9, 2010 @ 7:23 pm | Comment

Have we exhausted this thread topic yet?

August 9, 2010 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

My personal opinion on this is “development is better than no development, infrastructure is better than no infrastructure. Give benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty”. Of course China is in for the money and her own national interest, but who doesn’t? Let it run for a while before passing judgment.

August 10, 2010 @ 12:48 am | Comment

the world would be a perfect Fruitopia!

The king among juice drinks.

August 10, 2010 @ 2:33 am | Comment

@Richard – So you finally got a new avatar after all these years!? It looks a bit “Tales of the Unexpected” though . . .

August 10, 2010 @ 7:20 am | Comment

I only started using an avatar in November 2009. It is a bit dark; it looks much better full-size.

August 10, 2010 @ 7:24 am | Comment

A more balanced view from Newsweek: http://ow.ly/2njLS

A snippet:

“A recent study from the African Labor Research Network, called “Chinese Investments in Africa: A Labour Perspective,” looked at labor conditions at Chinese companies in 10 African countries and found them “among the worst employers everywhere,” according to the report’s author, Herbert Jauch.

Disenchantment with the Middle Kingdom is particularly strong in Angola and Nigeria, which a few years ago were both tilting China’s way, lured by the promise of soft, unconditional development loans and noninterference in domestic politics.”

Now, over to the naysayers.

August 10, 2010 @ 11:49 am | Comment

Poorly researched American propaganda by this bitter shill isn’t balanced just because you say it is, stuart.

No one has ever heard of ALRN (founded in 2001), but Herbert Jauch has been described as a “working-class hero”. The report is unprofessional and laden with rhetoric and very few facts- authored by a single, easily bought unionist, no less. The other possibility is that this Mr. Jaunch is simply looking to play China off against

DFID is a far, far more reliable source and they contradict him on nearly every claim. Unfortunately it’s difficult to find the ALRN report, as it is a unscholarly fringe publication.

August 10, 2010 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

A round of spot the agenda, old chapping sportington?

The many problems associated with Chinese companies in Africa should not be seen in isolation from the broader challenge of dealing with the consequences of neoliberal globalisation, which places economic growth above all social considerations. The trade patterns that characterised Africa’s relations with Europe and the USA are replicated to a significant extent in the Sino-African relations. Thus the quality of the economic relations needs to be altered substantially if Africa is to benefit in future. The global economic crisis provides trade unions with an opportunity to intensify advocacy campaigns for alternative policies to the neo-liberal agenda with a view of placing redistribution and Africa’s development priorities at the centre of all external relations.

We would like to thank the many workers, trade unionists, researchers and labor activists that have contributed to this study.

we are also indebted to the various national unions and the international unions operating in Africa such as the International Union of Food workers (IUF), International Metalworkers Federation (IMF), and the Building Workers International (BWI). A particular word of thanks must be extended to the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC)

Oddly enough, “among the worst employers anywhere” returns 0 results when searching the document. As usual, your “sources” wither under scrutiny, chapping stuartington.

August 10, 2010 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

Merp
“I made that exceedingly clear. I was talking about Chow: the full quote is All that article proves is that Chow is a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite..”
I was going by comment 30. I didn’t think you meant me but given your past it wasn’t clear. I stand happily corrected :-)

“The supposed “loophole” is this- China’s per capita income falls within the specific range to get the aid they are offered by the program.”
Ummmm….isn’t that a definition of a loophole? Like I said, China is well within rights to make applications – it can legally do so. But given the incidences of malaria in China compared to malaria in the countries that the program was aimed at, some people do come to the conclusion that China isn’t exactly playing cricket here.

Some other stuff
http://international-politics.suite101.com/article.cfm/opposing_chinas_presence_in_africa
“former South African President Thabo Mbeki openly criticized China’s exploitative trade with Africa in 2007. “The challenge is that you could … develop a relationship between China and the African continent, which in reality isn’t different from the relationship that developed between Africa and the former colonizing powers,” he old Financial Times.

Here’s a balanced piece, I think
http://csis.org/blog/common-sense-about-china%E2%80%99s-ties-africa
It is the African countries that have to regulate the quality of China’s products and employment – China doesn’t have to do that. Indeed, why should it? It is merely following the laws of the land. However, given the corruption issues and how some things are easily “overlooked” with a bit of dash (as I think it’s called in Nigeria) then don’t be surprised at the reactions.

The US and UK are accused of slavery – and yes, we did it and it was BAD. But we were only doing what was legal at the time and it was Africans that sold us the slaves to ship out to the markets….

See where I am getting at? China isn’t doing wrong – but then again, neither were we westerners.

August 10, 2010 @ 12:34 pm | Comment

Ummmm….isn’t that a definition of a loophole?

Following the rules is not exploiting a loophole. Chow calls it a loophole because somehow he doesn’t understand the concept of taking GDP and dividing it by population.

But given the incidences of malaria in China compared to malaria in the countries that the program was aimed at, some people do come to the conclusion that China isn’t exactly playing cricket here.

On any other occasion anti-China pundits would scream: “COMMUNIST STATISTICS! There are actually 1.4 billion malaria cases in RED COMMUNIST CHINA!”

That aside why do you suppose the CCP has been so successful at suppressing AIDS and Malaria, while Democratic South Africa has not been so successful?

Note that the funds China receives are to eradicate malaria, forever, in China. That and many nations such as Vietnam and Cambodia have greatly reduced malarial infections by using artemisinin- a compound discovered by red commie China.

Thabo Mbeki is not only a politician (e.g opportunist and liar) he has apparently made many errors in judgment before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thabo_Mbeki#Controversies

In November 2008, The New York Times reported that due to Thabo Mbeki’s rejection of scientific consensus on AIDS and his embrace of AIDS denialism, an estimated 365,000 people had perished in South Africa.

Your second link just shows China won’t be any worse than the Western powers. If you think corrupt African leaders aren’t bribed all the time by the West you are crazy.

See where I am getting at? China isn’t doing wrong – but then again, neither were we westerners.

You’re forgetting that the West still fuels corruption in several developing nations.

August 10, 2010 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

“A round of spot the agenda, old chapping sportington?”

Now look here, merpingtroid me ol’ mucker. It’s one thing to buy into CCP propaganda, but quite another to steal a man’s signature phraseology. Ripping good wheeze, maybe, but hurt feelings may follow.

Agenda? The only agenda I see is the one you are paid to promote, old sport. In fact, with all the US-bashing in the Global Times today I’m expecting you to be handed a more extensive wu mao porfolio any day now. Let us know – we can organise a whip-round for your farewell party.

August 10, 2010 @ 1:54 pm | Comment

And, by the way, the report that the article refers to is available in its entirety here: http://ow.ly/2nlTU

Wither under this scrutiny, el ferochapmeister:

“On the other hand, the bilateral China-Africa cooperation agreements tend to permit a lot of negative labour practices by Chinese companies. In this climate, local unions have no option but to consider practical forms of international solidarity if they are to seriously protect workers from what has become an institutionalised form of labour exploitation.” (p331)

There’s more damning evidence in that report. Much, much, more. If you just care to look, old sport. Do you dare?

August 10, 2010 @ 2:13 pm | Comment

Agenda? The only agenda I see is the one you are paid to promote, old sport.

They took information from union bosses. That is the agenda- union bosses trying to twist China’s arm. They will more likely than not turn around and do the same to America and Europe and India as it suits them.

On the other hand, the bilateral China-Africa cooperation agreements tend to permit a lot of negative labour practices by Chinese companies.

“Tend to permit” doesn’t mean that Chinese companies are necessarily abusing anyone.

In this climate, local unions have no option but to consider practical forms of international solidarity if they are to seriously protect workers from what has become an institutionalised form of labour exploitation.

Key words being “international solidarity”, “labour exploitation”. None of that constitutes evidence- it’s mere rhetoric. See the DFID report if you want evidence.

August 11, 2010 @ 5:50 am | Comment

“Your second link just shows China won’t be any worse than the Western powers. If you think corrupt African leaders aren’t bribed all the time by the West you are crazy.”
That’s my point exactly! Neither China nor the west are doing stuff in Africa for the benefit of Africans, despite what our dear leaders, elected or not, might try and tell us.

“That aside why do you suppose the CCP has been so successful at suppressing AIDS and Malaria, while Democratic South Africa has not been so successful?”
Malaria because it isn’t as bad in China as it is in Africa. Aids…I don’t know the statistics. I do know Mbeki kinda sorted that out by denial – who knows, maybe China did the same? It wouldn’t have been the first time, eh? As for what Mbeki says, it doesn’t matter if you agree with him or not – what he says has weight, regardless of the truth in his comments. As your example showed, if he said Aids doesn’t come from HIV, people die. If he says China is no better than the west, Chinese in Africa suffer. As you yourself must admit, history and facts are not what actually happen but are what we are told.

“That and many nations such as Vietnam and Cambodia have greatly reduced malarial infections by using artemisinin- a compound discovered by red commie China.”
Scientists – not communists. Doesn’t matter what political hue you are. And artemisinin is showing signs of being more ineffectual, unfortunately, due to increasing tolerance.

August 11, 2010 @ 6:57 am | Comment

Mike:
That’s my point exactly! Neither China nor the west are doing stuff in Africa for the benefit of Africans, despite what our dear leaders, elected or not, might try and tell us.

I don’t think many will argue with you on that here, Mike. However the West’s media claims they are SO, SO, SO concerned about those poor Africans and that China is just an evil greedy colonialist raping Africa and killing poor African babies.

who knows, maybe China did the same?

So in that case China has a billion malaria cases too right? Because they obviously are lying about the malaria statistics- which means they aren’t cheating anyone out of anything by using that “loophole”.

If he says China is no better than the west, Chinese in Africa suffer.

And as usual they will be innocent victims of whoever Mbeki’s paymasters are.

due to increasing tolerance.

Much of this is due to patients (sadly) not following through on their doctor’s orders.

August 11, 2010 @ 8:34 am | Comment

“However the West’s media claims……”
What makes the western media wrong and the Chinese media (for that, I mean the CCP) right? They’re all putting news across with a slant to suit an agenda – they’re all “wrong”, in their way. Thing is, you have a bias and I have a bias and heaven forbid that either of us drop that bias to listen to the other side! And this is refelcted in the media we read and the snippets from the other media we quote from sources that we normally don’t read because they don’t pander to our bias. I am trying to get over that….but phuq me it’s hard, as I readily admit. That’s why I like to read your less ranty and rabidly nationalistic posts – they make sense and they contain information that shape my views.

“So in that case China has a billion malaria cases too right?” No, they had 38 deaths reported.
http://portfolio.theglobalfund.org/Country/Index/CHN?lang=en
Reading the link suggests to me that China can apply but it also has to contribute a bit. Read the last two paragraphs, page 1, on the link provided…

“And as usual they will be innocent victims of whoever Mbeki’s paymasters are.”
And history will be written by those that write it. Look at the reputation of the old colonialists. They were only exploiting loopholes too, initially ;-) And look at the infrastructure they built and the medicines they brought. And the trade, don’t forget the trade ;-)

WRT artemisinin, this was in the Lancet (Volume 366, Issue 9501, 3 December 2005-9 December 2005, Pages 1908-1909)

“Jambou and colleagues’ paper is a wake-up call; resistance to artemisinins may indeed be selected by uncontrolled use of artemisinins as monotherapy or in conjunction with ineffective partner drugs. We ignore this warning at the risk of a rapid demise of ACTs that are currently just being tested and deployed.”

It may not necessarily just be the patients not follwing doctor’s orders, though that is hugely prevalent the world over….and made worse by the internet.

August 11, 2010 @ 9:39 am | Comment

What makes the western media wrong and the Chinese media (for that, I mean the CCP) right?

No one said anything about the Chinese media being right. The Chinese media is harmless- they have no international reach and 0 credibility. The West’s media, on the other hand, is just as hegemonic and oversized as their host countries.

The reason why the Western media is wrong is because their facts are wrong. And they lie. That’s about it.

Thing is, you have a bias and I have a bias and heaven forbid that either of us drop that bias to listen to the other side! And this is refelcted in the media we read and the snippets from the other media we quote from sources that we normally don’t read because they don’t pander to our bias. I am trying to get over that….but phuq me it’s hard, as I readily admit. That’s why I like to read your less ranty and rabidly nationalistic posts – they make sense and they contain information that shape my views.

I might have a bias but not in the way you’d expect, and I put bias aside when facts are presented- so far the West has not been able to support even a majority of their many wild claims against China and everyone else they hate.

http://portfolio.theglobalfund.org/Country/Index/CHN?lang=en
Reading the link suggests to me that China can apply but it also has to contribute a bit. Read the last two paragraphs, page 1, on the link provided…

Why believe.. drumroll… COMMUNIST STATISTICS!!! Clearly there are billions of malaria deaths in China, and they are all Falun Gong and Tibetans !!!

Look at the reputation of the old colonialists. They were only exploiting loopholes too, initially

Except China isn’t exploiting loopholes. The “loophole” isn’t a loophole- perhaps I should have said “loophole” to make it clear. Chow is just a foaming at the mouth anti-China fanatic who wants (PRC) Chinese people to die.

August 11, 2010 @ 10:11 am | Comment

“I put bias aside when facts are presented- so far the West has not been able to support even a majority of their many wild claims against China and everyone else they hate.”
Define “the West”. And the claims this “the West” makes. Not being a monolithic entity I find it hard to visualise “the West” as the organ you see.

“Why believe.. drumroll… COMMUNIST STATISTICS!!! Clearly there are billions of malaria deaths in China, and they are all Falun Gong and Tibetans !!!”
Should be “???” after COMMUNIST STATISTICS, surely? And why not believe them? These are the statistics used by the CCP to apply for the malaria funding grants. Given the African countries with 1000x worse stats, shouldn’t China not apply? And if the CCP stats are to be questioned, then what basis for their other claims?

I thought Falun Gong were voluntary organ donors…

August 11, 2010 @ 10:43 am | Comment

Define “the West”. And the claims this “the West” makes. Not being a monolithic entity I find it hard to visualise “the West” as the organ you see.

It may as well be monolithic; as the vast majority of information Westerners get is controlled by corporations, or the church.

And why not believe them? These are the statistics used by the CCP to apply for the malaria funding grants. Given the African countries with 1000x worse stats, shouldn’t China not apply? And if the CCP stats are to be questioned, then what basis for their other claims?

So you are saying you and other Westerners only believe CCP statistics when it suits you? I recall on this very site that CCP AIDS statistics were vehemently denied (a group of posters believed China would have over 10 million AIDS patients as of this very year), and whenever GDP figures are brought up they are heavily scrutinized and scoffed. Same goes for death tolls in Sichuan Earthquake, Jyekundo Earthquake, Tibetan Riots, Shaoguan Incident, Urumqi Riots you name it. So why believe these malaria numbers? You see when the West throws out so many ludicrous arguments one or two is bound to bite them in the ass.

I thought Falun Gong were voluntary organ donors…

Nope, they don’t donate organs period and the organ harvesting thing is a total lie. See Wu Hongda’s refutation of their claims- again this is more biting in the ass for the West- you either believe Harry Wu about the laogai or the Falun Gong about the organ harvesting because they vehemently contradict each other.

But the West is unparalleled at eating their cake and having it too.

August 11, 2010 @ 10:53 am | Comment

Here take a look at this. By Harry Wu- deemed a laogai expert by many American institutions (gov’t, university, human rights organizations, media)

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun314.html

There is no evidence that Falun Gong members are executed en masse to harvest their organs, this according to Harry Wu, a prominent US-based campaigner for human rights in China and an expert on Laogai (Re-education through Labour) camps.

Mr Wu, who spent 19 years in Laogai camps, has uncovered evidence that establishes that for quite some time Chinese prisoners have been used to supply organ banks and executed on demand for needy transplant patients.

His doubts are not over the practice but over the alleged spike in transplants and organs sale purportedly carried out at the expense of the Falun Gong.

Back in March the Falun Gong claimed that 6,000 of its practitioners had been sent to a secret concentration camp in Sujiatun district (Shenyang, Liaoning), and that at least 4,500 were killed to harvest their hearts, kidneys, corneas and skin (see Epoch Times, March and April 2006).

For Mr Wu, the Falun Gong’s claims are not corroborate by photos, documents or detailed information but are based on the testimony of few witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information.

“I tried several times to see the witnesses, but they said no,” he explained. “Even today, I don’t know their names.”

As for China not taking money from the malaria fund, why on earth should they not? They qualify and they need all the money they can get. As a developing country herself, China already gives an estimated $25 billion dollars to the developing world a year; why should they not be permitted to take $1 billion from a fund? Especially considering many of the donors are former imperialist nations.

And why should China contribute to that fund? They don’t owe anyone anything, and they especially do not owe money to rich neo-imperialists to use to bolster their image in the developing world. If anything China should start her own fund. Clearly the anti-Chinese media would not back off on China even if the CCP does give billions to the developing world. They will simply smear and slander as usual, giving 0 credit and 0 recognition for anything China ever does as usual. So why bother?

August 11, 2010 @ 10:59 am | Comment

the anti-Chinese media…

Cut the nonsense. The media aren’t anti-China. Ignorant of China, perhaps. But they are as anti-China as they are anti everything. And that’s what the media are supposed to be – skeptical. Stop conflating critical scrutiny with hatred. It’s ever so fenqing.

August 11, 2010 @ 11:02 am | Comment

“As for China not taking money from the malaria fund, why on earth should they not? They qualify and they need all the money they can get. As a developing country herself, China already gives an estimated $25 billion dollars to the developing world a year; why should they not be permitted to take $1 billion from a fund? Especially considering many of the donors are former imperialist nations.

And why should China contribute to that fund? They don’t owe anyone anything, and they especially do not owe money to rich neo-imperialists to use to bolster their image in the developing world. If anything China should start her own fund. Clearly the anti-Chinese media would not back off on China even if the CCP does give billions to the developing world. They will simply smear and slander as usual, giving 0 credit and 0 recognition for anything China ever does as usual. So why bother?”

And yet you say “But the West is unparalleled at eating their cake and having it too.”

Hmmm…. ;-)

August 11, 2010 @ 11:07 am | Comment

Reading that rant again, all I could see was…
“China is poor! Western countries owe everyone everything, especially China! Remember the Opium War!”

“If anything China should start her own fund” It should, yes. And I believe we rich westerners shouldn’t be paying poor people anymore – our largesse is now used up. Pay your own way, spongers. As the man says, we’re FORMER imperial powers – China is the new imperial power, she’s got the dosh now.

Balls in your court – enjoy it ;-)

August 11, 2010 @ 11:16 am | Comment

Richard
Cut the nonsense. The media aren’t anti-China. Ignorant of China, perhaps. But they are as anti-China as they are anti everything. And that’s what the media are supposed to be – skeptical. Stop conflating critical scrutiny with hatred. It’s ever so fenqing.

No, they are not anti everything or skeptical. For the most part all major American News Corporations have a set line on most issues and then push their political views or bolster their sponsors It just so happens that conservative shill media corporations and liberal shill media corporations agree that China is an easy target to earn votes/viewership with.

I wouldn’t be surprised however if they were to do a 180 if the CCP even hinted at wanting to buy them.

Mike
And yet you say “But the West is unparalleled at eating their cake and having it too.”

Nothing wrong with what I said. $1 billion is nothing compared to the losses China experienced from 1800s up until the 1900s. If they don’t like it they can change the rules to discriminate specifically against China- who knows what kind of backlash the West will face, however.

August 11, 2010 @ 11:16 am | Comment

“$1 billion is nothing compared to the losses China experienced from 1800s up until the 1900s.”

BINGO!!!!!!!!!

I win!!!!!!

:-D

August 11, 2010 @ 11:17 am | Comment

“The Chinese media is harmless- they have no international reach and 0 credibility.”

I agree with the second point, as to the first…are we forgetting that they have a near monopoly on broadcasting to 1.4 billion global citizens?

Merp, once again your lack of logic, thought, creativity, or point astounds me.

August 11, 2010 @ 11:47 am | Comment

are we forgetting that they have a near monopoly on broadcasting to 1.4 billion global citizens?

are you implying 1.4 billion Chinese have access internet/televisions?

I’ll give you a few posts to remove foot from mouth.

August 11, 2010 @ 11:54 am | Comment

Back to China in Africa, here’s the latest reason for the developing world to fear Chinese imported labour: http://ow.ly/2nTKE

Oh dear, oh dear!

August 11, 2010 @ 12:03 pm | Comment

I say old chapping stuarting fellow, you really have lost it.

Now you’re linking to a blog that presents zero sources, as if we should believe you. DFID found no evidence of such practices- but then again I suppose a random person on the internet is more believable than any British government agency.

August 11, 2010 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

From the same blog that posted this jaw-dropping piece of unadulterated stupidity:


China leads the Asia Pacific region in plastic surgery and my friend from Mexico said that they have a neurosis about their thick eyes and general Asian appearance here. I wouild agree, as they seem to like people with lighter skin tone, white being the best. In addition, they love the look of foreing eyes, hair and body shapes. They are in the pursuit of losing their Asian-ness as they try to appear more white… imho

excerpt:chinadaily

Most stuarting fellow, I do believe you are most excellent at finding horrible sources.

August 11, 2010 @ 12:09 pm | Comment

“Now you’re linking to a blog that presents zero sources”

Such a lazy feromerp! Cold shower recommended to wake you up, old sport. Or you could try this:

http://ow.ly/2nU57

August 11, 2010 @ 12:22 pm | Comment

China has one of the largest prison populations in the world. The 2009 “World Prison Population List” compiled by the International Center for Prison Studies at King’s College, London, put the total number of inmates in Chinese jails at 1.57 million.

Author neglects to mention the U.S, with less than 25% of China’s population, has a prison population of around 3 million- mostly minorities.

That said he still provides 0 sources.

August 11, 2010 @ 12:28 pm | Comment

Author neglects to mention the U.S, with less than 25% of China’s population, has a prison population of around 3 million- mostly minorities.

And how many of them are exported for cheap overseas labour in Africa?

Exactly.

August 11, 2010 @ 1:29 pm | Comment

Considering your source doesn’t offer facts or proof of any of his claims, I don’t see how this matters.

August 11, 2010 @ 2:02 pm | Comment

Wasn’t Obama born in Africa (Kenya)?

Obama’s Kenyan father was on the CIA payroll studying Russian when he hooked up with Obama’s CIA MOMMA who was also studying Russian that the East-West Center in Hawaii.

After Obama’s wife-beating father and his white mother divorced, Obama’s Momma hooked up that that Indonesian General and oil company exec. and lived in Indonesia when Suharto killed over 1 million Indonesians in an anti-Communist purge.

Obama’s first job out of college was with [Busines International Corporation] a CIA front company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation

August 11, 2010 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

Ferin,

What are you talking about? You’re not making any sense. (Though why I’m shocked by that is beyond me…)

August 11, 2010 @ 3:35 pm | Comment

Wow, Merp has been busy…and angry.

White girl must have turned him down again. Poor chap, eventually he’ll get laid and leave his momma’s basement.

August 11, 2010 @ 3:36 pm | Comment

Jeremiah
What are you talking about? You’re not making any sense. (Though why I’m shocked by that is beyond me…)

Of course you don’t understand, it’s only blatantly obvious. The CCP does not have “1.4 billion global citizens” wired to the tube or monitor. At least 700-800 million of them are more or less “out of the loop”. Unless you are saying they are air dropping leaflets to every Chinese person, including the few tens of millions of babies.

Be more careful the next time you throw around the 1.4 billion number for impact.

Matt Rice:
I guess that means China Bloggers have been turned down 1230120320100234239403492039843223 times by (attractive, intelligent) Chinese women, which is what created their irrational hate of China. Eventually they’ll get laid and leave the ESL school playground.

August 12, 2010 @ 6:20 am | Comment

“Internally, “corruption becomes China’s largest economic loss, largest social evil and largest political challenge”, the general said. Internationally, money worship has badly damaged China’s image. For example, Liu said China’s investment mode in Africa is to bribe local officials, and as a result, local officials’ appetite for bribes grows bigger and bigger while ordinary Africans become increasingly averse to the Chinese government and enterprises.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LH12Ad01.html

“But the role of China in Africa is also criticized by some locals, such as the encouragement of piracy and cheap goods. Local people are complaining about Chinese businessmen, and some even accuse them of exploiting corruption and poor governance in Africa.”

http://opinion.globaltimes.cn/commentary/2010-06/547233.html

August 12, 2010 @ 6:47 am | Comment

True enough but he could apply said criticism to any state in the world. They are being cautious and self-critical, which is an intrinsically Chinese trait. Such cannot be said of many other cultures or peoples.

Those same people complaining about China in Africa are those who probably raise issues with domestic and also Western corruption, you would have to show that they are criticizing China in isolation or it doesn’t bolster your argument.

August 12, 2010 @ 6:58 am | Comment

Odd, eh? If a westerner (or “contaminated” Asian) says it, he or she is “a penny pinching, caterwauling hypocrite that wants to see impoverished Chinese die of malaria”. However, if the view is from an official CCP sanctioned organ, “They are being cautious and self-critical, which is an intrinsically Chinese trait. Such cannot be said of many other cultures or peoples.”

Brings to mind something else I read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10941998

;-)

August 12, 2010 @ 7:18 am | Comment

“They are being cautious and self-critical, which is an intrinsically Chinese trait. Such cannot be said of many other cultures or peoples.”

The ability to take a virtue which is the property of the human race, and assert that only a particular nation enjoys this virtue is something one often sees from nationalists. The fact that a nationalist of one country and a nationalist of another country will both assert that their own nation is the paragon of exactly the same virtue never seems to register. As a British person I am often told that British people are especially polite and reserved, being the products of a traditional society with a long history. However, in China I was told that Chinese people are especially polite and reserved as compared to us ‘open’ foreigners for exactly the same reasons, and in Japan I am told that Japanese people are particularly polite and reserved as compared to other countries like, for example, China.

August 12, 2010 @ 8:11 am | Comment

Mike-
Obviously Mike, the distinction lies in the facts presented. Chow lies- the other guy doesn’t. Your argument is utterly ridiculous.

FOARP-
The ability to take a virtue which is the property of the human race, and assert that only a particular nation enjoys this virtue is something one often sees from nationalists.

The ability to deny an obvious fact, ignore thousands of years of evidence is something one often sees from resentful Western crypto-nationalists, well aware of their deteriorating position.

As a British person I am often told that British people are especially polite and reserved, being the products of a traditional society with a long history.

Well, everyone in the world knows they’re not. And long history? It depends on what you consider “long”. So it’s subjective to some degree.

However, in China I was told that Chinese people are especially polite and reserved as compared to us ‘open’ foreigners for exactly the same reasons, and in Japan I am told that Japanese people are particularly polite and reserved as compared to other countries like, for example, China.

Modern China? It depends on the province. Japanese people are indeed polite today, but they weren’t always so. You can’t compare an honest assessment of a culture to the laughable nationalist bluster formulated in the minds of Europeans during the 1800s and onwards.

August 12, 2010 @ 9:32 am | Comment

“Obviously Mike, the distinction lies in the facts presented. Chow lies- the other guy doesn’t. Your argument is utterly ridiculous.”
Oh, most obviously… ;-)

“….laughable nationalist bluster formulated in the minds of Europeans during the 1800s and onwards.”

BOOOYAH!

I win again! :-D

August 12, 2010 @ 9:43 am | Comment

The makes no sense award?

August 12, 2010 @ 10:13 am | Comment

Merp, you just have to mention the Century of Shame (however obliquely) one more time and I win a curry.

Still waiting for the other CCP blogosphere buzzwords to be mentioned for my beers on Saturday….

August 12, 2010 @ 10:17 am | Comment

China has been through far worse, like the Mongol Invasions, Five Hu Occupation of the North, etc.

Doesn’t mean the British and French (among others) weren’t monsters in the 18th century, and not just for their atrocities in China.

August 12, 2010 @ 11:16 am | Comment

Yeah….because the CCP media always mention those, don’t they? ;-)

Anyway, talking of cultural/national stereotypes, this is great :-)
http://www.visitbritain.org/mediaroom/pressreleases/welcome.aspx

August 12, 2010 @ 11:34 am | Comment

Doesn’t mean the British and French (among others) weren’t monsters in the 18th century, and not just for their atrocities in China.

Atrocities? Nationalistic hyberbole, old sport.

You don’t find Brits or French railing against the Roman occupation + they left us with a few decent roads.

August 12, 2010 @ 12:02 pm | Comment

Why should they? As you recall both offending parties have been ground into the dust in revenge.

August 12, 2010 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

You don’t find Brits or French railing against the Roman occupation + they left us with a few decent roads.

And you don’t find Chinese railing against Manchu, Jurchen, Khitan, Mongol, Tangut, Xiongnu, Qiang, etc raids.

Because they’ve all been subdued or scattered. Likewise, Rome no longer exists, and they pulled the British off of the trees and out of the caves whereas 19th century China was morally superior to the mass murderers from imperial Europe but failed to develop trade and their weapons technology.

August 12, 2010 @ 12:07 pm | Comment

“Likewise, Rome no longer exists”
S’funny…seem to recall the capital of Italy was so called…

“and they pulled the British off of the trees and out of the caves whereas 19th century China was morally superior to the mass murderers from imperial Europe but failed to develop trade and their weapons technology”
So you Chinese belittle the Welsh too, eh? Never knew that…

Morally superior, eh? Hmmmm…..
“There has been a clear surge of nationalism inside the country. The ancient Chinese tradition of keeping a low profile seems to have been abandoned.

In the group of articles published by the International Herald Leader, a newspaper affiliated to the state news agency Xinhua, the four authors say aggressive and belligerent voices fill the nation’s media and intoxicate popular thinking.

One of them, Mr Ye Hailin, says: “The huge achievement made during 30 years of reform and opening-up has brought about unprecedented material wealth for the nation.

“At the same time, it’s inevitably contaminated us with unprecedented conceit and arrogance.”

In a materialistic society, the authors say, the nation has lost its soul. The root cause, they say, lies in China’s self-claimed uniqueness.”

August 12, 2010 @ 12:30 pm | Comment

Oooh, look, a British tree/cave :-)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/aug/10/britains-oldest-home

August 12, 2010 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

Of course I could pull a huge number of disgusting, deeply disturbing links about the history of any country, not just China. The point is not to argue for anyone’s “superiority”; the point is to put down those who do, and thus fail to recognize our shared humanity, in both good and evil.

(The one thing I’d be hard pressed to find, though, is another civilization who was embracing torture as a career, an art form, a field of new research – in the 19th century! when London had a subway, Paris had an Eiffel Tower and Venezuela had abolished capital punishment in all its forms!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Venezuela

August 12, 2010 @ 12:40 pm | Comment

I knew you’d mention the Dzungars, the funny thing is that the Manchu sent other Mongols to exterminate them. Practically no Han were involved.

And China historically has been among the freest nations in the world if you are talking about slavery. The slave population almost never exceeded 2%, and 30-60% of them were foreign invaders, the vast majority of the remainder were criminals.

our shared humanity

I always get a good laugh when Westerners say this.

August 12, 2010 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

I respectfully refer the author of comment #99 to replies #100-#103.

Mike Goldthorpe:

Oooh, look, a British tree/cave :-)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/aug/10/britains-oldest-home

Wow! 10 500 years of history – twice as old as Chinese civilisation!

August 12, 2010 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

merp, I’m not a Westerner. I’m from a poor, “non-aligned” nation. Not third world, but definitely not “first” world.

But if I’m not mistaking, you have a US passport – so YOU are a westerner.

August 12, 2010 @ 1:26 pm | Comment

By 8,500 BC, millet agriculture was already started in China. A run down shanty isn’t that impressive by comparison… but when are you getting back on topic?

RP-

Then why defend them?

August 12, 2010 @ 1:49 pm | Comment

I don’t defend anyone. According to most systems of thought and ethics AND in my honest opinion, nearly all Westerners who have ever lived are bad, bad apples.

But the black man and the yellow man have had ample opportunity to prove they are just as cruel and barbaric as the white. The poor are if anything more monstrous than the rich. As to religions, better not go there…

Misery, brutality and suffering are part of the human condition, they’re not tied to any culture or country. Picking sides in a nationalistic debate is… being blinded by concepts with no real foundation.

August 13, 2010 @ 7:26 pm | Comment

I don’t defend anyone. According to most systems of thought and ethics AND in my honest opinion, nearly all Westerners who have ever lived are bad, bad apples.

Can’t say I disagree.

But the black man and the yellow man have had ample opportunity to prove they are just as cruel and barbaric as the white. The poor are if anything more monstrous than the rich. As to religions, better not go there…

That’s a little old-fashioned don’t you think? I’d say it’ll be a while, at least, before “the yellow man” catches up to the West if they ever do. Perhaps the red and brown men are the better ones.

Misery, brutality and suffering are part of the human condition, they’re not tied to any culture or country. Picking sides in a nationalistic debate is… being blinded by concepts with no real foundation.

Well I’m not sure I can convince you otherwise, I suppose we can wait until genetic science has fully revealed the basic underpinnings of the West’s thousands of years of sociopathy.

August 14, 2010 @ 2:08 am | Comment

As I was saying:

Hostility Toward Workers Cools Angola-China Relationship: http://ow.ly/2pWx1

August 16, 2010 @ 10:50 am | Comment

Surprise surprise, racial attacks in Africa. Too early to bring out the pom poms and haggis, old chap old sport old wheeze.

August 24, 2010 @ 1:36 pm | Comment

Over a week to respond? Recall to party HQ last week for re-wiring?

August 24, 2010 @ 2:12 pm | Comment

I needed my cockney software updated.

August 24, 2010 @ 2:34 pm | Comment

cockney to english translator, rather

August 24, 2010 @ 2:34 pm | Comment

“I suppose we can wait until genetic science has fully revealed the basic underpinnings of the West’s thousands of years of sociopathy.”

That’s your idea of a reasonable and civilized argument?

I rest my case.

August 24, 2010 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

“Maybe the sky is blue”
“TU QUOQUE! AD HOMINEM! LOGICAL FALLACY!”

Put down “Internet Logic for Sophists” and do try to stay on point. That wasn’t an argument, it was a proposition. Apparently one that you don’t like.

August 24, 2010 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

Yawn.

August 24, 2010 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

Merp-o-san I’ve been pretty nice to you, and you were showing such progress with your polite, calm, reflective comments. And here you are getting testy and borderline rude. Don’t force me to hold your comments again. Its more work for me, they show up hours late, and it should be unnecessary. You can (should) make your points without shouting or sounding hysterical.

August 24, 2010 @ 9:49 pm | Comment

It’s a pretty good imitation I’d say

August 25, 2010 @ 6:50 am | Comment

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