Traveling

I’ll be away on business for the rest of the week. If your comments don’t appear, be patient. It may take me an entire day to get to anything held up in the spam filter. Feel free to use this as an open thread.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 67 Comments

What do you think the Year of the Tiger will bring?

February 17, 2010 @ 6:05 pm | Comment

Anybody read Qigong Fever; http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14066-9/qigong-fever

I just finished before I headed off on a trip, so no copy with me to quote some points of interest. Not a FLG book by any means, but a well researched historical insight to the Qigong movement. Some fun facts about ‘extraordinary powers’,etc.

I have some questions about this mysterious ‘cultural capital’ that China posesses that will lead it to future world domination. Is the Qigong movement still central to this?

February 17, 2010 @ 8:19 pm | Comment

The Responsibilities of All Chinese Immigrants in America

Today’s post is about the responsibility of a Chinese living in America. I think all Chinese living in America have the responsibility of helping and enlightening foreigners.

Last year I taught English as a favor to a friend, in a school in Zhuhai, China. And I met a few of the English teachers there, some are from America, some are from Canada. From my observation of them, I find that at first glance, they are very polite, very moral, very courteous, very attentive to others, very loving.

But after a longer and closer observation, I find that they are only that way when in front of Chinese people. That is, when they know there are many Chinese people around, they’ll “act” to behave very moraly, very civilized, very loving. All those foreign teachers always tell some very touching stories, moral lectures, etc to their students, and most of those stories always lead to some lessons about God, about Love.

The reason those teachers do this, is because deep down, they firmly believe that the Caucasian race is of a superior one, a more civilized one, a more courteous one, a more cultured one, a more accomplished one. And the Chinese race, is an inferior once, a less developed, less courteous, less cultured one, and less accomplished one. Therefore, they think they have a moral responsibility to help and improve and englighten the Chinese, and oftentimes they are moved and touched by what they consider to be own selfless acts.

This is of course not new. Every citizen of every third world country can tell you similar stories and feelings. Historically, the steps of a cultural invasion by an emperialist power is first sending missionaries based on the belief that the barbarians need to be enlightened, need to be shown the love of God, the love of modernity. And of course, during their acts of enlightenment, they have done some objectively charitable things. But those charitable acts were with the intention of letting the Chinese people “wake up” and realize: “Oh, look how wonderful and benign and loving those Westerners are, compared to them, we are really just an inferior group of people!”. And those Chinese will start to do a lot of “self-reflections” on why they are not as wonderful as those loving and cultured Westerners. And slowly over many many years and centuries, the idea that Chinese people are simply of a lower class are firmly rooted even in the minds of many “elite” Chinese. And those elite Chinese will want to separate themselves from the regular Chinese, and help the Westerner englighten China further. And of course that led to the first Opium War, the second Opium War, the invasion and looting of the Qing Dynasty by the Western allied forces (otherwise known as the Boxer Rebellion in Western terms).

The reality is of course, the Chinese have a longer civilization, a higher level of development, more courteous, more civilized, more cultured, more loving, more moral, and more enlightened. The West simply utilized some forms of non-renewable energy in the last few hundred years, and is only strong temporarily, from a material point of view. Or, as the famous Western scholar Samuel Huntington said:

[quote] “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.” [/quote]

Now, you may say, “Where is your evidence!?!?”. Well let’s look at the military. Look at the number of scandals left by the American military everywhere they are based – frequentg rapes against Japan civilians, hitting Italian cable car in the mountain, crushing Korean girl to death in Seoul, and everytime an American ship docks in Hongkong, there’s bound to be at least one incident of sexual harassment by American sailors in a bar.

Overseas Chinese should have the responsibility in educating and enlightening the Whites, not the other way around. I propose a mental exercise when interacting with a white man. When you see him/her, do not feel like you are talking to a superior thing, instead remind yourself that you are talking to a lower class being, an ape. I often teach this mental exercise to my son, and he now appears to be a fully confident and assertive and handsome young man.

You must often suggest to the Whites they are the wrong ones, the inferior ones, the ones needing enlightenment. No no no, this is not how to be polite, THIS is how to be polite. No no no, God does not exist, believing in God is a sign of backwardness. No no no , this is not good music, THIS is good music. No no no, this is not appropriate familial relations, THIS is appropriate familial relations. No no no, this is not delicious food, THIS is delicious food. No no no, this is not advanced level math, THIS is advanced level math. The more such examples you can point out in front of them, the better it is for you and for them.

Now, you say. Don’t Chinese also need to learn from the Westerners? Of course we do. But I think the best way to learn is through teaching others. In college, I often was asked to tutor students. And I find that when I tutor them, I go through a thorough re-discovery and review of my knowledge and skills, and it makes me understand certain things better. It is a journey of self-discovery and strengthening self-confidence. Therefore, to learn, it is better to teach than to follow, better to correcting others’ mistakes than pretending you are wrong. This is the best way to improve yourself.

Same thing with reading. When you read a book written by a foreigner, just remind yourself that this is a book written by someone with questionable knowledge and skills.

All in all, Chinese living overseas need to constantly remind themselves of this. Without understanding this, we risk lowering ourselves to the same level as the Westerners, and risk being on the receiving end of a missionary, risk being morally debased and losing one’s self-dignity.

February 18, 2010 @ 12:37 pm | Comment

Uh huh. You hang around some pretty wierd dudes, dude.

PS, the west is a rather larger entity than the landmass above Mexico and between the Atlantic and Pacific… ;-)

PPS The Opium wars were a long time ago…

PPPS All of us have a loooong civilisation – all depends how you interpret i ;-) . Westerners, after all, invented writing. And cities. And, I recall, metalworking :-)

February 18, 2010 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

Soooo, this Chinese encirlement of India..war by 2012 as predicted by Claude Arpi? Think that was his name… :-)

February 18, 2010 @ 3:55 pm | Comment

More Arpi here
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2009/09

But I see that the Chinese attacking India story was from Bharat Verma
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2009/08/unmasking-china.html

And to provide a counterpoint, here’s Chen Xiaochen of China Business News’s article http://www.chinastakes.com/2009/7/illusion-of-chinas-attack-on-india-before-2012.html

February 19, 2010 @ 8:37 am | Comment

Mike,

Math is essentially a computer-program designed to send pre-written posts regularly to this site. No use replying to an automated program.

February 19, 2010 @ 10:55 am | Comment

I wonder if Richard will write something on the Dalai Lama’s meeting with Obama when he gets back.

Gosh…Math has a son!?! Makes me re-evaluate my belief in Darwinism.

February 19, 2010 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Typical rant from someone with an inferiority complex… if you’re teaching your son to be a racist, then how do you think this will make our world a better place? Aren’t we supposed to try to make this world better through our posterity, through our teachings and values? So, your son will grow up with a superiority complex… now right, no problem, until he starts learning some Chinese history and realizes that all you told him was crap and he has to reevaluate what is true and what is false. If Chinese civilization and culture were so superior, why is there barely anything left today from this grand civilization? I see more western culture in China than I see chinese culture…

February 20, 2010 @ 3:29 pm | Comment

Do you think that there’ll be WWIII with China if the US attacks Iran?

February 20, 2010 @ 8:48 pm | Comment

What do you think about China’s rise?

February 20, 2010 @ 8:50 pm | Comment

I love amerika, they have the dumbest people in the world, or call them sheeple, so even they are being cheated so many times they do not mind, as long as there is TVs, or celebrities? They think they are in HEAVEN.
I lost my job ten years ago just because the corporations have outsourced their middle classed jobs
overseas to the countries have the people more likely working properly, and more intelligent. In addition, all the manual jobs have been picking up by the brown people the government deliberately let in so to serve the richest bunch, those so-called CEOs, or bankers, or politicians.
So I have to, now, living on so-called system that, the money has been so tight, that I need to get dog foods instead of those for human, to get better nutrients. Literally, there has been no health care, as I do not have money to ‘insure’ my family and myself, you had better not fall ill, or you had better die.But I am happy, as I know there is god to protect amerika, I will be in heaven after I die, so I do not mind what life I have this life.
I have heard someone has crashed himself to death somewhere in amerika, I think it is just a gig, not real! How could one disagree with the GREATEST nation in the world? They are the most free, and fair country in the planet!
Long live the amerika, it is a good karma the man who crashed himself to death who would come back as a 15th god king to protect this great nation. We have to take the day as the new national day to celebrate the new born amerika!!!

February 21, 2010 @ 12:40 am | Comment

Whether Math is a computer program or a human being does not matter. What matters is he is dead wrong. I have tons of evidence to prove that Chinese are inferior to any foreigners, not just white foreigners.

1. Not long ago, a Korean ex-president’s wife was found taking bribe, he jumped off a cliff to kill himself. In Taiwan, the “ex-president” embezzled public funds, his family took HUGE, HUGE some of bribe money, stashed overseas, and he claimed it’s just political persecution by his opponent. His followers have been protesting in front of the jail for him decrying human right violation, despite evidence had been so clear.

2. Last year or the year before last, a Taiwanese fishing boat, working near DiaoYuTai island like all Taiwanese fishermen had been doing for centuries, was sunk by a Japanese navy warship. He came home sobbing on TV. One Taiwanese “ex-president” came out gleefully “admitted” that DiaoYuTai was Japanese territory. If you read the history, even Okinawa (Ryukyu island) was annexed by Japan not long ago by force. There were no protests organized by DPP (the ’opposition’ party) or anyone else against Japan, despite organizing street protest is DPP’s expertise. On the contrary, a mainland official came to Taiwan to negotiate business was fiercely protested against, even wrestled down on the ground.

3. Recently Toyota cars and trucks are found dangerously defective, absolutely no media in the west complaining “Japan” had sent lousy products to endanger their lives. No word of “Japan” mentioned. It’s Toyota. When toys imported from China found containing lead or other harmful chemicals, no media outlets mentioned the name of the Chinese company produced the product. Everyone says “China” conspired to poison American children. Nobody condemned the American company imported the products in, either. The Chinese workers are only providing cheap labor to the rich businessmen from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the Unites States. They make pennies per hour, and their environment has been seriously polluted, damaged.

4. The fact that the guy said nothing but he was out of office, would be back, and he got a Chinese to present evidence to prove Chinese inferiority is the best proof of Chinese inferiority.

February 21, 2010 @ 1:55 am | Comment

A brilliant comment, TC. You are so right – the media never said a word about Toyota being a Japanese company. Great catch!

It’s quite hilarious analyzing the “logic” of this type of comment. Other countries did awful things, thus anything awful done by China is A-okay!

And no one ever said China is inferior. Not quite sure where that comes from. China is a great country. That you write the way you do indicates you have a lot of anxiety about the (false) notion that China is inferior and perceive the world as ganging up on China and ridiculing it. This is known as an “inferiority complex.” China is not inferior, but it does suffer from an inferiority complex, mainly caused by the government’s drilling it into the people’s minds every day that they are a victim, that the world is unfair to them and that any criticism of China is motivated by imperialism and a desire by other countries to suppress and dominate China.

February 21, 2010 @ 2:13 am | Comment

Oy vey. Some of these comments made my head hurt.

February 21, 2010 @ 4:36 am | Comment

Lisa, if you think this is bad go take a look at what’s in the spam filter. Oy vey on steroids.

February 21, 2010 @ 4:57 am | Comment

You should set up a gallery with some of those posts

February 21, 2010 @ 6:38 am | Comment

@Li
Heaven? I wouldn’t go so far. But a reasonable place on earth yes. And quite a bunch of people want to join them in their stupidity and sheepishness. Just look at immigration figures. Even chinese go there.

I myself prefer Europe. Much more fun here. But sometimes the fun is too much like in the 20th century.

February 21, 2010 @ 6:51 am | Comment

@TC

I have reasons why i think Math is an automated spam program:

http://www.pekingduck.org/2009/08/the-rice-sprout-song/

Scroll down to post 12 and you guys will get what i mean.

February 21, 2010 @ 11:45 am | Comment

Chinese go every where ecodelta.Not just to america, you can find Chinese working, or studying in south America,in spain,and in africa. After touring the world they would know nowhere like home, they would finally go back to where they were born,if they do not have relationships with the locals.

Don’t be fooled by the west movies/dramas/media,think lives in the west would be as nice as such!One of my Hong Kong friend’s 12 year old daughter a fan of ‘Friends’, she thought six lovely looking young people living together,teasing each other and have relationships with others is surreal, and they seemed do not need to work, they have all the shinny outfits,they have all those materials that she wanted to be an American,till one day I shew her the records of violence happened in America;all those gun shootings, all those emptied malls, and the financial meltdown, and all those fattest people, and the food banks, and the reported paedos, and the church sex scandals,and the unemployment rates,and the people living in the remoted, deprived areas,living a dog life, buying dog foods for better nutrients,from the reports from many social network, she realised her life in Hong kong is in HEAVEN.

Europe? The place I am working/staying now. How good? if you see those czechs, poles, 8 people living together in one house,work the hell out to make the money then sent home half of their incomes then got drunk in the weekends,or,women got pagnant with the locals(with whatever races/social status),and to hear the protest and complaints from the locals you know what I meant,and the locals have to re, re, re, mortgage their homes, or using credit cards to make a living.

Fun? I am not sure what you meant, may be fun coz the easy women and drugs.

February 21, 2010 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

get real ecodelta, lives cannot be made in Hollywood, you have to live a life, not dream a life.

Thanks to math? A very logical comment.Hat off. IQ 60 wouldn’t get it.Go better blogs mate.

February 21, 2010 @ 1:45 pm | Comment

Geez, some people here can’t appreciate Math’s humorous post. Some people take things so seriously…

February 21, 2010 @ 1:56 pm | Comment

Wow, these comments are….wow.

Richard, next time you just want to have an open thread, please specify a very simple neutral topic like: “Whatever happened to Burger King’s Yumbo?”

February 21, 2010 @ 2:33 pm | Comment

To #21:
if your friend’s daughter thinks that life in “the west” is aptly captured by a sitcom that wrapped up 5 years ago, maybe she’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. But it’s not entirely surprising that she and others think that living in HK is still pretty good, since they haven’t yet experienced all the “benefits” of living in China. That may not come until 2047.

To #23:
yes, his/its post could certainly make one laugh. Whether that was the intent of the post is another story.

February 21, 2010 @ 4:25 pm | Comment

@Li Chi

After touring the world they would know nowhere like home, they would finally go back to where they were born,if they do not have relationships with the locals.

You can rant till the cows come home. Numbers speak for themselves:

http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?id=685

Don’t be fooled by the west movies/dramas/media,think lives in the west would be as nice as such!One of my Hong Kong friend’s 12 year old daughter a fan of ‘Friends’, she thought six lovely looking young people living together,teasing each other and have relationships with others is surreal….

All we can say is your friend has poor parenting skills. Most kids don’t just believe what they see on TV. Otherwise every single kid in Hong Kong would have jump out of their apartments in 1975 after watching Ultraman. Teach your friend some parenting skills before his daughter become like these two kids:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_in_Hong_Kong#Foreign_Entertainment

she realised her life in Hong kong is in HEAVEN.

As you go at length talking about social problems in the “West”, you forgot that “Asian” societies have their fair share of social problems.

“Record number living below Hong Kong’s poverty line, study shows”

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/287481,record-number-living-below-hong-kongs-poverty-line-study-shows.html

“Top 11 Countries With the Biggest Gaps Between Rich and Poor No. 1 Hong Kong”

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/107980/countries-with-the-biggest-gaps-between-rich-and-poor

“Tsang’s Approval Rating Slips in Hong Kong”

“http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/34966/tsangaas_approval_rating_slips_in_hong_kong”

Europe? The place I am working/staying now. How good? if you see those czechs, poles, 8 people living together in one house,work the hell out to make the money then sent home half of their incomes then got drunk in the weekends,or,women got pagnant with the locals..

8 people staying a house? Open your eyes. You haven’t seen the worst.

“Little space for Hong Kong’s poorest”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8377352.stm

“Home for Chan Hon Keung is a two by three metre hardboard box.

His cubicle is one of 16 on the fifth floor of a run-down concrete building in the Mongkok area of Kowloon.

Little wooden ladders lead up to the lattice fronts of the upper cubicles. These are coffin-sized homes for Hong Kong’s most desperate.

Mr Chan shares a tiny kitchen and a single, stained toilet pan with nine others. In other blocks as many as 40 people may have to share.

But that hasn’t stopped the rent from rising.

“I used to pay 800 Hong Kong dollars ($103; £63). Now it’s HK$1,000,” says the retired cleaner. ”

Only deranged people with 0 IQ and 0 EQ will loudly proclaim that “life in Hong kong is in HEAVEN.”

February 21, 2010 @ 4:45 pm | Comment

@Li
Geeh Li, you sounds like a Chines/Han supremacist.

Are you that kind of person who when travels abroad looks down on the locals and their customs/look? You sound very much like that.

About my live…, it is real enough. And no, I don’t watch sitcom or hollywood series for long time.

I prefer PBS (American), N24, Arte and Phoenix (French and German). I like documentaries and a good movie now and then.

I even have cctv here, in english and french. But do not use to watch them often. It is my policy not to listen to those that chokes other’s voices.

February 21, 2010 @ 8:13 pm | Comment

SP, comments with more than two links get caught by the aggressive spam filter, sorry for the delay.

February 22, 2010 @ 2:59 am | Comment

Recently Google threatened to leave China. The main reason is Chinese government ‘hacked into’ Google system trying to find information of some certain individuals, who the west call “human right activists“ (By the way anybody comes out against the Chinese government is a “human right activist“, no questions asked, absolutely not needed). The media (TV, internet … every outlet), Hillary Clinton, politicians left and right, all hysterically worked up to condemn China.

I am not surprised one bit by all that by the media and the politicians. What surprised me is no ordinary people questioned why Google, supposedly a world class company, has such a lousy system that is so easily “hacked into” by a third world, backward country, and threatened to leave Google as a customer.

No one asked if the west have also been constantly hacking into Chinese systems for similar reasons, either. (I don’t know for sure, but I would be very, very surprised they have not been doing the exact same thing. ) All denounce China so evil that it tries to hack into the west’s systems to do evil things, to steal high-tech secrets, …

Google’s excuse is so laughable to me, but not to the rest of the world. Isn’t that another evidence Chinese are so inferior? If not, then why Chinese people are being treated like a bunch of retards?

February 22, 2010 @ 3:22 am | Comment

By the way anybody comes out against the Chinese government is a “human right activist“, no questions asked, absolutely not needed

Interesting. Just so we know where you’re coming from, name just three people you feel have been labeled human rights activists who weren’t? No, let’s make it simpler: name two. No, let’s lower the bar even more. Name ONE Chinese who was labeled a human rights activist when in fact he or she wasn’t.

I noticed something about your comments, TC. They are 100 percent fact-free. Where did Hillary Clinton “hysterically condemn China”? Come on, show us the hysteria. Who says the Chinese people are “inferior,” and who treats them like “retards”? Of course, if you were representative of China some of those labels might be valid, but fortunately you aren’t.

A classic fenqing bundle of white rage mixed with just a touch of stoopid.

February 22, 2010 @ 3:41 am | Comment

@t.c lim

Did you ever heard the proverb about the local snake and the dragon?

You will be surprised how witty so called backward people can be on their own land.

Or how a simple bushmen can beat the most sophisticated city dweller on his own ground.

February 22, 2010 @ 3:41 am | Comment

Li Chi #21
Yeah…that explains all the Chinese in New Zealand bringing their parents over…
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10620758

No place like home…so bring home over :-)

February 22, 2010 @ 5:14 am | Comment

TCL
“No one asked if the west have also been constantly hacking into Chinese systems for similar reasons, either. (I don’t know for sure, but I would be very, very surprised they have not been doing the exact same thing. )”

Ummm the west has – not only China but each other. It’s in the western media – a couple of minutes on Google (ahem!) should bring out some references…

Here’s your starter for 10
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/world/26cyber.html?scp=1&sq=cyber%20spying,%20us&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/12/world/asia/12cyberchina.html?scp=10&sq=cyber%20spying,%20us&st=cse

February 22, 2010 @ 5:18 am | Comment

Just so we know where you’re coming from, name just three people you feel have been labeled human rights activists who weren’t?

Kadeer and the Dalai Lama are two easy ones. Both are ethnic nationalists- Kadeer is different in that she supports the imperial ambitions of a made-up ethnic group.

February 22, 2010 @ 6:07 am | Comment

Overseas Chinese should have the responsibility in educating and enlightening the Whites, not the other way around. I propose a mental exercise when interacting with a white man. When you see him/her, do not feel like you are talking to a superior thing, instead remind yourself that you are talking to a lower class being, an ape.

I disagree. Captive apes will just keep asking for free bananas.

February 22, 2010 @ 6:17 am | Comment

If Chinese civilization and culture were so superior

They lagged because-

1) they weren’t brutal enough
2) they weren’t greedy enough
3) lack of natural resources

The way things are shaping up, however, the West won’t be able to compete with a genuinely Chinese civilization. Savagery on the international stage is frowned upon now, and deception is less effective. All of this is directly related to the decline of the West.

February 22, 2010 @ 6:22 am | Comment

Bit harsh on albinos, methinks…

February 22, 2010 @ 7:08 am | Comment

” talking to a lower class being, an ape.”

Such disrespect for our ancestors….

February 22, 2010 @ 7:31 am | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/apd88k

February 22, 2010 @ 7:32 am | Comment

Thank you very much, Mr. Goldthorpe, for correcting my comment by providing the links. I take your corrections, and apologize for anything I said wrong.

This is a blog about China (including Taiwan and Hong Kong). Since it is opened to the world, I believe the owner(s) expect(s) different opinions. There are about 1.3 billion Chinese on this planet. They might be dumb, but they cannot all agree to what you say. If your “guests” say anything incorrect, do correct them with your own arguments (with or without evidence). Nobody can be right all the time.

I am not a “professional” like a lot of people on this blog are. I don’t like to respond to attacks, especially personal attacks. I am making an exception today.

If calling people “stoopid” makes anyone feel himself wiser, superior, go ahead. After all, it costs nothing and if it makes you feel good. It does not hurt my feeling at all, since I already admitted Chinese are inferior to any foreigners. In fact, ’stoopid’ is kind of light.

I leaned a new word “fenqing“ today. I looked it up on the web. Very interesting. It’s a word from the mainland. I was born and grew up in Taiwan and didn’t know it until now. Thanks for that.

If you don’t like opinions different from yours, you should be able to set up a filter to say “any comments from the idiot with the name t.c.lim, delete it immediately”.

February 22, 2010 @ 8:02 am | Comment

TCL
Apology accepted :-) And any offence I may have caused, please accept mine! And do call me Mike..
Opinions should be allowed to be expressed (within reason). After all, if we practise ensorship merely to protect ourselves from other opinions, that would make us…ummm… ;-) Anyway, a dissenting opinion could always be right – all it needs are facts behind t :-)

I’m not a professional person this end – merely a bored lab technician waiting for his PCR to finish…

And regarding apes – be careful not to diss them too much!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvR2mCx-Jnc

February 22, 2010 @ 8:09 am | Comment

TL, I only used the word “stoopid” in regard to the specific points I questioned you about – big claims you make, but then never back up. You now have a golden opportunity to prove me wrong by simply answering the questions I pose here. In that same comment I question your assertion that Hillary Clinton “hysterically worked up to condemn China.” One of the articles Mike linked to includes Hillary Clinton’s “hysterical” words:

“States, terrorists and those who would act as their proxies must know that the United States will protect our networks,” she declared in a speech on Thursday that drew an angry response from Beijing. “Those who disrupt the free flow of information in our society or any other pose a threat to our economy, our government and our civil society.”

If you look up and down this thread, and most threads here, you will see I almost never invoke terms like “stupid.” I save them for the most deserved occasions, where I feel they are totally justified and even necessary. And I am willing to take it back and apologize if you indeed can show me what your sources are for the statements I’m questioning. And do you really feel Clinton’s words quoted above are a hysterical condemnation of China? To me, they sound measured, restrained but firm.

I don’t expect a serious answer, but I hope you surprise me. Until then, the charge of “stoopid” remains. Nearly every one of your comments consists of throwing shit against the wall and seeing how much can stick. When you are called on it, you are silent. At least Merp and Maitrea and other trolls argue their points, sometimes fairly well. I have a low tolerance level for pure unadulterated horseshit, however, and I won’t tolerate many more of your hit-and-run comments.

Oh, and by the way – TL is posting his comments from right here in the den of all evil, the good old US of A. No surprise there.

February 22, 2010 @ 8:43 am | Comment

To #34:
“Kadeer and the Dalai Lama are two easy ones”
— yes, those 2 would be the usual suspects coming from someone with your POV. Perhaps you can explain how their work for the rights of Uyghurs and Tibetans respectively do not rise to the level of “human rights activist”, and by way of contrast, provide us with an example of someone whose work does meet that threshold in your mind.

“a genuinely Chinese civilization”
—what is that, exactly? And how would it contrast with what we’ve seen over the past 6000 years?

February 22, 2010 @ 1:25 pm | Comment

@t.c. lim’s comment about “Toyota” versus “Japan”.

The Western media did not denounce the Japan(ese) government because they did nothing wrong.

There is no government agency in Japan or the US that is psychic. Recalls happen all over the world everyday. It might interest you to know, in fact, that the defect is a part produced in the United States. TO SPECIFICATION.

With few exceptions, the complaints about consumer items entering the US revolve around the fact the the products contain extraneous elements that render the products illegal to export to the US.

As a member of the WTO China is responsible for ensuring that exports from their country do not violate the import standards of the consignee.

That’s why you have to have a license to export goods, are work through an intermediary who is licensed.

China(government) has consistently had difficulty in controlling the LEGALITY, not quality, of their exports.

And really… Who can blame them. One would think that a country with 5000 years of “civilization” would be able to teach it’s citizenry that selling fake baby food is bad… No, not bad. Morafukngly Reprehensible.

February 22, 2010 @ 1:36 pm | Comment

Mustn’t mention the T word….

Oh, what the heck ;-)
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2010/02/2010222181545670147.html

February 23, 2010 @ 7:13 am | Comment

Indian statistics
http://www.indiastat.com/default.aspx
And more here
http://www.exbii.com/showthread.php?t=15006

Are there any PRC Chinese statitics that are not a la Enron?

February 23, 2010 @ 9:56 am | Comment

:-) Look Hu’s on Twitter ;-)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7292001/President-Hu-Jintao-keeps-Chinese-Twitter-fans-waiting.html

Do ordinary Chinese get Twitter?

February 23, 2010 @ 1:17 pm | Comment

Are there any PRC Chinese statitics that are not a la Enron?

Yes because whenever anyone says anything that isn’t negative about China, it’s a Communist lie. Those inscrutable orientals are known to do that.

February 24, 2010 @ 7:04 am | Comment

As a member of the WTO China is responsible for ensuring that exports from their country do not violate the import standards of the consignee.

That’s why you have to have a license to export goods, are work through an intermediary who is licensed.

China(government) has consistently had difficulty in controlling the LEGALITY, not quality, of their exports.

And yet, India and Mexico violate these rules much more often, and have a higher “death toll” so to speak. Spinach in America, or some other vegetable, has killed more of its own citizens than the melamine scandal. White hypocrisy as usual.

And really… Who can blame them. One would think that a country with 5000 years of “civilization” would be able to teach it’s citizenry that selling fake baby food is bad… No, not bad. Morafukngly Reprehensible.

And killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis is morafukngly collateral damage. White hypocrisy at its finest.

February 24, 2010 @ 7:08 am | Comment

White hypocrisy at its finest.

CCP-esque logical fallacy at its finmostextremableness, old sport.

February 24, 2010 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

To merp’s #49

As a great fan of the “Tu Quoque” argument, maybe merp should read the International Criminal Tribunals’ opinion on it:

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/08/2tribunals.cfm

“Tu Quoque Principle

The Trial Chamber addressed the validity of the tu quoque principle as a defense to accusations of breaches of International Humanitarian Law (IHL). In examining this principle, the Tribunal looked specifically at the proposition that ” breaches of international humanitarian law, being committed by the enemy, justify similar breaches by a belligerent.” In strong language, the Trial Chamber rejected the validity of the tu quoque principle, stating that it is ” fallacious and ­inapplicable” in IHL. The Trial Chamber stated that most IHL ” lays down absolute obligations, namely obligations that are unconditional or in other words not based on reciprocity.” The Tribunal found not only support for this in Common ­Article 1 of the Geneva Conventions, but also in the development of IHL rules into obligations owed to the entire international community as a whole, “designed to benefit individuals qua human beings.” The Chamber also pointed out that the tu quoque defense was raised in war crimes trials following World War II but ” was universally rejected.” In addition, the Chamber stated that most IHL norms, particularly those pertaining to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide, are peremptory norms of international law or jus cogens, and thus are non-derogable. Consequently, the tu quoque defense can never be valid because obligations of IHL are not dependent upon any other party’ s conduct.”

That’s the international judgment on the principle behind merp’s only professional trick.

February 24, 2010 @ 5:10 pm | Comment

Yes, because the West gets to invalidate all criticisms of it by bringing up the minor faults of others. Brilliant!

I guess if a mass murderer points his finger at a petty criminal before trial, all evidence against him should be null and void. Tu quoque after all!

February 25, 2010 @ 4:50 am | Comment

“White hypocrisy at its finest.”
With regards to Iraq? Ummmm…..Russians are white, no? Did they invade? The French are white, no? Yet you may recall the old “Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys” jibe…

“Yes because whenever anyone says anything that isn’t negative about China, it’s a Communist lie. Those inscrutable orientals are known to do that.”
No – they are just not open to independent scrutiny. And if one tries to see the real numbers, you get jailed. Don’t get all touchy – I’m not bullying you.

“The way things are shaping up, however, the West won’t be able to compete with a genuinely Chinese civilization. Savagery on the international stage is frowned upon now, and deception is less effective. All of this is directly related to the decline of the West.”

Uh huh. And so the enpires of the west (which, I guess, must have competed with a “genuine Chinese civilisation” too) happened because….?
But you are right, savagery on an international stage is frowned upon. Yet the Chinese seem to disregard that :-) So…the west can rise again, doing what it did before :-D

February 25, 2010 @ 6:33 am | Comment

And yet, India and Mexico violate these rules much more often, and have a higher “death toll” so to speak. Spinach in America, or some other vegetable, has killed more of its own citizens than the melamine scandal. White hypocrisy as usual.

Citation needed. If you are referring to the 2006 North American E. Coli Outbreak, the death toll was 3.

And killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis is morafukngly collateral damage. White hypocrisy at its finest.

War is hell. If it makes you feel any better, the actual casualty (not death) number is between 100,000 and 200,000 with 13% to 15% of those being from car bombs.

And, if I may ask, make you think I am white?

Poisoned baby food. Really, just think about that one and try to make a sound argument.

February 25, 2010 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

@sptwo – Nice post. The only thing I would add would be one notable exception.

I would point out that during the trial of Otto Skorzeny et al (1947), the court found that the defendants had violated International Law (International Law, Vol. II, paragraph 16), and the Hague Convention by wearing US uniforms and travelling under a US flag.

Having said that, the court acquitted all of them based upon testimony from the US and British stating that they (Allies) had in fact employed the same tactic against the Axis side.

In that case, tit-for-tat resulted in the court in fact and action accepting tu quoque. The distinction in this case was that two adversarial parties in the same contest (WWII) had committed the same offense.

This differs from instances where the court did not accept tu quoque wherein soldiers on the same side made claim of this defense.

Just sayin’ :)

February 25, 2010 @ 2:01 pm | Comment

To SP2:
that must be why Merp seems genetically incapable of discussing China without making all manner of comparisons (real or imagined; logical or not, and mostly the latter). Tough to make a tu quoque argument without comparisons…although he might next try saying that today’s China is so much better than that of the CR/GLF years, and get some more mileage that way.

February 25, 2010 @ 5:03 pm | Comment

feromerp on the ropes…

February 26, 2010 @ 8:54 am | Comment

War is hell. If it makes you feel any better, the actual casualty (not death) number is between 100,000 and 200,000 with 13% to 15% of those being from car bombs.

Right and the actual casualty rate of the Holocaust was 1 million. Sorry, but the most accurate measure of excess death rate has put the toll at 1.2 million. Nice work.

Poisoned baby food. Really, just think about that one and try to make a sound argument.

Business is hell.

@S.K Cheung
Tough to make a tu quoque

America (and thus your) entire anti-China campaign is a tu quoque. Look at Bush at Kyoto.

Americans and Westerners = first world economies, third world people.

February 27, 2010 @ 8:30 am | Comment

America continues its rhetoric of Economic Racial Holy War against the Japanese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAgftaDkvuQ&feature=fvw

February 27, 2010 @ 8:38 am | Comment

and no, I’m talking about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_salmonellosis_outbreak

But the e.coli thing works as well. Both were due to workers’ shit touching the vegetables.

Aside from those two, there was a third scandal. Or maybe it was just part of the same two, I forget.

February 27, 2010 @ 9:02 am | Comment

Now I remember, it was the peanuts.

Salmonellosis in peanut butter from Peanut Corporation of America in Blakely, Georgia has become “one of the nation’s worst known outbreaks of food-borne disease” in recent years. Nine are believed to have died and an estimated 22,500 were sickened. Criminal negligence has been alleged after product tested positive then re-tested “negative” by a second testing agency, and shipped on several occasions. The product was in turn used by dozens of other manufacturers in hundreds of other products which have had to be recalled.

Peanut Corporation of America vs. Sanlu, I guess PCA wins. Both companies were liquidated.

Talk about American hubris. America screams about China collapse- America receives real estate/stock implosion.

I think they should stop lest the commercial loans start collapsing, too :p

February 27, 2010 @ 9:05 am | Comment

“Business is hell”

Correction, old sport: Business in China is hell – and conducted without moral restraint, operating as it does under the auspices of government officials who have their sticky fingers deep in the pie.

February 27, 2010 @ 9:59 am | Comment

anti-China campaign..

Get that into that brain of yours: anti-CCP =/= anti-China. That is just another smearing label cheap politicians like to employ when they have no argument.

February 27, 2010 @ 10:42 am | Comment

Correction, old sport: Business in China is hell – and conducted without moral restraint, operating as it does under the auspices of government officials who have their sticky fingers deep in the pie.

Yes because American corporations don’t cause the deaths of thousands if not millions every year.

Compared to Blackwater, Peanut Corporation of America, Firestone, Citi, etc Sanlu is a saint, sir lord chappington.

February 27, 2010 @ 10:53 am | Comment

To 58:
“America (and thus your) entire anti-China campaign is a tu quoque.”
—huh? (yet again). (a) I’m not American (b) I’m not anti-China; just anti-CCP. See Sp2′s explanation above. (c) I don’t criticize CCP’s methods because they are different from “western” methods ie. I’m not criticizing based on a comparison. I criticize CCP methods on their own merit (or, more fittingly, a lack thereof)

You, on the other hand, can’t seem to get out of bed without making comparisons, be they to Nazis, India, Taiwan, etc etc.

February 27, 2010 @ 3:06 pm | Comment

Yes because American corporations don’t cause the deaths of thousands if not millions every year.

That is correct. They don’t. There have been scandals and incidents, but nothing coming close to the tainted milk that in 2008 affected 300,000 infants. The big difference, of course, is that in the case of the tainted milk, the addition of melamine was deliberate which is not to say the perpetrators deliberately sought to kill anyone, although six infants died and thousands developed kidney stones). The peanut butter salmonella was the result of negligence and PCA possibly continued shipping it even after they knew it was contaminated and they will pay dearly for that. But any comparisons with the tainted milk is ludicrous. The tainted milk was a widespread coverup and a crime that involved attempted bribes straight up the food chain (so to speak), and was just one of many such incidents. Of course, Merp is wonderful at pointing to an example of something the US did and drawing a comparison that proves, to his satisfaction, that American food 9or whatever) is more likely to be contaminated than China’s. Everyone living in China knows what utter horseshit this argument is, as food poisoning is simply a way of life here, in a way that cannot begin to be compared with the developed world. Outbreaks of even minor sickness from food in America are cause for national concern and headlines. In China, it’s not news at all. This applies to product safety, too. Sure, there are cases of scandal about a poorly made product from the US. But in China, you are never surprised when something you buy shatters into pieces or fails to work at all. I can tell you lots of stories.

None of this means i don’t love China, where I’m writing from today. But they do have food and product issues that hopefully they’ll get under control as they develop.

February 27, 2010 @ 3:35 pm | Comment

And I’m closing this thread. Please use the one above, about my traveling to China.

February 27, 2010 @ 3:36 pm | Comment

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