China’s Internet “the most open in the world”

This is good to know!

“Our country’s Internet situation is unique. Compared to all kinds of restrictions in foreign countries, China has the most open Internet in the world.”

«我国互联网形态有特殊性。相对于国外的各种限制,中国的互联网是全世界最开放的。»
- Zhou Xisheng (周锡生) Deputy Chief of Xinhua News Agency, Director-General of Xinhua News Net.

From notes taken at the ninth session of the 2009 SCIO Internet News Work Training Session.

Now that that’s settled, please use this as an open thread. That includes those of you who need a proxy to access this site over in the world’s most open Internet.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 175 Comments

Oh man, what a riot!

January 6, 2010 @ 8:47 am | Comment

I guess this depends on how one defines “open”…

January 6, 2010 @ 9:35 am | Comment

Well, in terms of Internet with Chinese characteristics, the internet in China is certainly the most open with Chinese characteristics.

It all depends on definition.

January 6, 2010 @ 10:18 am | Comment

Every country has internet restriction, whats the difference? No difference at all.

Actually after using the internet in the us and the internet in china, I think us has much more censorship. This is my feeling.

January 6, 2010 @ 10:59 am | Comment

Red Star, tell us what site you tried to get onto in the US but couldn’t because of censorship. I’ll test it now and see if it’s blocked.

January 6, 2010 @ 11:18 am | Comment

HongXing, please, how many days did you spend in US, and how many hours did you surf online? And are all your websites you go to are chinese websites?

I cant believe you think US has more internet restrictions than China.

January 6, 2010 @ 11:54 am | Comment

Not about Chinese Internet, but freedom in mobile computing, Google Phone, Nexus One, is out. NYT has several articles on it. One of them
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/technology/personaltech/06pogue.html?ref=technology
has this to say
“you should root for the Google Store’s success, because the obnoxious policies and fees of the American cellphone companies have gotten out of control. Anything with even a fighting chance of putting power and choice back in your hands is cause for celebration.”

Google does no evil. Open source rules.

In addition to Google and open source, China is another hope. It is probably the only country strong enough to challenge the West on the fundamental premise of intellectual properties. The practice of protecting intellectual properties jealously is a neo-imperialism of Western countries to perpetually protect their technological advantages and to prevent poorer countries from catching up. It denies African AIDS patients access to drugs of inflated prices. Mankind did not actively protect intellectual properties for most part of its history, but this did not prevent technological advances. Neither Newton nor Einstein demanded people pay them royalty to use their scientific discoveries.

January 6, 2010 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

Every country has internet restriction, whats the difference? No difference at all.

Actually after using the internet in the us and the internet in china, I think us has much more censorship. This is my feeling.

Why is it necessary to engage in such awkward mental gynastics, making statements which cannot be taken seriously? If you think people need to be protected from certain forms of information or have their thoughts guided or whatever then isn’t the fact that China does it something to be proud of, a key difference between it and the West?

Even if you do think Western countries do the same, you could claim credit for China for doing it in a more thoroughgoing and organized fashion, guided by scientific principles.

January 6, 2010 @ 12:30 pm | Comment

@HongXing

“Actually after using the internet in the us and the internet in china, I think us has much more censorship. This is my feeling.”

You are clearly deranged.

January 6, 2010 @ 12:51 pm | Comment

China is a horrible, dirty, self-dillusional country that must be broken up by all means necessary.

January 6, 2010 @ 1:13 pm | Comment

2 Richard– I guess your Chinese is good.

2 Peter-Get used to it.There are 2 kinds of logic,One is Logic,the other is Chinese Logic. Take the statement by Zhou as a tobacco commercial will help you to understand him in his shoe.

January 6, 2010 @ 1:25 pm | Comment

Red Star, tell us what site you tried to get onto in the US but couldn’t because of censorship. I’ll test it now and see if it’s blocked.

Why only focus on censorship? More important to see which country’s internet is more enjoyable and convenient to use.

In China, if I want to download mp3, just go to baidu, and I can download everything. In US, this is banned, censored (don’t tell me the reason, i don’t care). In China, I can view balanced analyis about international issues like Iran, North Korea (not on CCTV necessarily, but on other news channels). In US, it’s all one sided, all pro-american news about international issues. In China, I can use MSN to talk to my friends at my workplace. In US, many companies do not allow you to use MSN or other messaging software during workplace (even many sites like facebook, youtube are banned in many work places in US. Most people spend 8 hours a day at work, so this is censorship on their lives). In US, most forums will not allow me to say things I want and will delete posts. If I translate same posts into Chinese and post on Chinese forums, no one will delete. (don’t tell me to write posts about Hu Jintao in Chinese internet, only morons will write such posts).

Too many areas where US lags behind China in internet freedom, too many areas. I must criticize you about this, lack of freedom, total lack of freedom. This is what my biggest complaint about US, lack of internet freedom compared to china.

January 6, 2010 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

@ Serve
“It is probably the only country strong enough to challenge the West on the fundamental premise of intellectual properties. The practice of protecting intellectual properties jealously is a neo-imperialism of Western countries to perpetually protect their technological advantages and to prevent poorer countries from catching up. Etc, etc”
Yet I read in Wikipedia (and this only because I haven’t got the other sources of this at hand…)
“The Emperors of China strove to keep knowledge of sericulture secret to maintain the Chinese monopoly” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk).
Anyway, what is wrong with protecting and gaining from research? Money had to be invested into getting the products ready for the market, money which has to be paid back to banks and shareholders, among others.

Mind you, having read your previous posts (I’ve been lurking and reading a fair bit here) I see that logic isn’t paramount. Protecting the glorious Chinese Communist Party, on the other hand….

January 6, 2010 @ 3:49 pm | Comment

I never defended alleged protectionist practices in ancient China, although I seriously doubt the authenticity of this story of Chinese emperors guarding silk making technology. There got to be millions of peasants engaged in silk production. You can easily bribe one or two to learn the secret. Same with the other stories about tea, porcelain, paper, or gun powder, whatever.

Back then, once a secret was out of China, the emperor would not be able to do anything about it. Nowadays even if you manage to reverse engineer a technology, they can still use legal means to stop you from using it.

I am glad that China just ignores Western complaints about intellectual properties. Just hope more countries follow China’s lead and stand up to the West.

January 6, 2010 @ 5:33 pm | Comment

I am glad that China just ignores Western complaints about intellectual properties. Just hope more countries follow China’s lead and stand up to the West.

Serve, given your attitude, do you think Stern Hu (胡士泰) should be released from Chinese custody? After all, all he did was facilitate the transfer of information from rival companies.

January 6, 2010 @ 8:30 pm | Comment

Smatter – pretty good, all things considered.

Nanhe, you are as malignant as HongXing.

Twisted, touche. Serve’s argument serves him (no pun intended) as long as China is the recipient of the technology, not if it has to sacrifice it to others.

Red Star, nice try to change the subject but you fool no one.

Chi, very interesting link, and it only makes sense that China is the destination of choice.

Peter, any attempts to engage in a serious dialogue with Red Star will be met with disappointment.

January 6, 2010 @ 10:54 pm | Comment

As my Chinese friends would say, what is the middle way? I mean, between the no holds barred Western internet and the Chinese restrictions. Personally, I would not mind a little less sex and violence on the net and on television. To think that society is not corrupted by all this is, I submit, ridiculous. And I am not a right wing conservative but a left leaning Democrat. On the other hand, both the internet and television are obviously both overregulated in China, regardless of how one defines “kai fang de”. Again, I do believe there is a middle way here. Anyway, interesting discussion.

January 7, 2010 @ 12:18 am | Comment

Sex and violence, like Danwei, Peking Duck and Fool’s Mountain?

January 7, 2010 @ 12:21 am | Comment

There are sites that may not be accessible from China. Usually they are due to technical reasons. Other times, the site may host content that is illegal under Chinese law, such as terrorism, pornography, etc. This is simply Internet regulation and is done in accordance with Chinese laws. In the United States and Europe, there is also such Internet regulation. For example, a forum devoted to Al Qaeda will not be accessible from the US. A pro-Nazi site will not be accessible from Germany. I think there needs to be more mutual understanding of the situation before jumping to hasty conclusions and prevent certain people with ulterior motives from politicizing this issue.

January 7, 2010 @ 3:24 am | Comment

As I recall from staying with my in-laws, there are a few sites that are not accessible online. BBC was (is) one – yes, I like to read it occassionally. As I recall, some of the British news sites were also bloody hard to access normally. As I read, things were pretty good during the Olympics but now there are more restrictions than ever…
I’ve not really come across restrictions in the west like those in China. Maybe I don’t frequent the right sites to be restricted… Porn and terrorism I can sort of understand (but with regards to terrorism…who defines the terrorist? and when does art become porn? See this from the NZ Herald regarding Malaysian views…http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sideswipe/news/article.cfm?c_id=702&objectid=10618704). But news? Just because it has content you don’t agree with? Hmmm…..
As for sex corrupting….which is more corrupt in it’s dealings? Norway or Saudi Arabia? Which of these two countries has the more perverted view with regards to sexual matters? And which one has pornographic channels available (we used to watch Norwegian porn when on the rigs in the North Sea :-) )?

January 7, 2010 @ 4:17 am | Comment

“There are sites that may not be accessible from China. Usually they are due to technical reasons.”

Then my site must be more ‘technical’ than I gave myself credit for.

January 7, 2010 @ 9:04 am | Comment

Peter, any attempts to engage in a serious dialogue with Red Star will be met with disappointment.

I never seriously expected anything else from Red Star, I simply found it interesting the kind of reply he made. “But the US does it too!” isn’t a reply you use about things you are proud of, only shameful things like illegal detentions, ill-treatment of natives, racism etc.

And he’s also shed some light on what Zhou Xisheng might have meant by the “most open Internet in the world”. If you ignore the elephant in the living room which is CCP censorship and talk about things like pirated downloads, the Chinese internet has fewer restrictions than the US.

January 7, 2010 @ 9:12 am | Comment

What is “intellectual property” if not censorship?

January 7, 2010 @ 9:21 am | Comment

What are you if not a moron? (Asked with deep respect.)

If we cannot own our work and protect it, if it’s all for free, what’s the incentive to create? America has a deep commitment to intellectual property, and you can see the things that have been invented in the US. In countries where IP means nothing, you will find a relative creativity vacuum. That’s not to say by enforcing IP laws you’ll instantly sprout creativity. No guarantee of that at all. But without it, you can guarantee a less creative people, with a lot more effort spent on copycatting than on creating.

January 7, 2010 @ 9:58 am | Comment

Perhaps the reason Red Star and co are claiming that China is no different to anywhere else in regard to censorship, is because they aren’t clear what the word means.

If censorship was merely the restricting of information then they would be right, it happens all the time in virtually every country. For example if I claim that my snake snake oil can cure cancer for $30 a bottle I’ll probably get arrested. If a record company can prove that I downloaded an mp3 from a dodgy website I might get fined. And a court can prevent the media from identifying the defendant in a court case. If you call these sorts of things “censorship” then you can easily claim that there is more censorship in the West than China, but of course that is not what censorship means.

To count as censorship, the purpose of restricting information has to be to influence morals or ideology. As I’ve said, if you think managing people’s thoughts is a good thing then censorship is something to be open about, as many regimes were in the past. But China pays lip service to Western enlightenment values and modernism, so they can only treat it as a “necessary” evil, not something to be proud of.

January 7, 2010 @ 10:23 am | Comment

China’s internet might not be the most open, but it is the most civilized. 文明办网!

January 7, 2010 @ 10:49 am | Comment

I am not saying the concept of intellectual property right in the West is all wrong. What I advocate is an alternative to the current way of treating intellectual property.

Google offers free music download in China. But this is a small thing.

A better exam is the story of publishing Western authors’ books in China. This is mostly about scientific and technological books. Authors and publishers would like to sell their books in China for the same prices they sell in the West. China does not accept that. It says you either transfer a book’s copy right to us for a very small fee per copy sold, or someone in China will just pirate your book. In the first case you don’t get much per copy, but since many copies will be sold, you will still make a handsome profit. In the second case, you will get nothing. In the end Western publishers all accept the first option. Now you can buy these books in China for less than 10 percent the price you pay in the West.

This is what I promote as a Chinese alternative approach to intellectual property. The point is that developing countries should not let West dictate terms when it comes to intellectual property. How can the majority of people in the third world acquire advanced knowledge if a college textbook cost more than 100 dollars?

January 7, 2010 @ 11:14 am | Comment

I agree, Serve, that it’s impractical to expect developing countries to pay the prices the US does for software licenses, textbooks, etc. Microsoft learned that lesson years ago – Chinese people aren’t going to pay $500 for MS Office, nor should they.

But don’t fool yourslef about google. They may let you download a song for free. Would they hand you the source code for their search algorithm? No, because then they wouldn’t be Google anymore. They’d just be one of a trillions of other companies offering the same thing.

January 7, 2010 @ 11:33 am | Comment

Hang on…

“I am not saying the concept of intellectual property right in the West is all wrong”

“It is probably the only country strong enough to challenge the West on the fundamental premise of intellectual properties”

The concept is good but the fundamental premise isn’t? Isn’t a fundamental premise the concept?

As for the majority of people acquiring knowledge – teachers. It doesn’t take many to teach a multitude. Another thing you need is a will and a reason. Who is going to learn to make/invent/develope something if everyone else can sit on their arse and benefit without giving a cent for the privilege?
As I read things and as my wife and her family sort of tell me (we normally talk about mundane stuff….and my wife is a lousy translator as she can’t be bothered half the time :-) ) the dragon didn’t begin to stir until Deng Xiaoping let people make money. Money is a powerful incentive to develope and in order for that incentive to really work, you need to protect intellectual property.
As far as I can tell the Chinese alternative approach to intellectual property is generally referred to as theft – something a lot of the Chinese I know agree on. Not that it’s a bad thing…a lot of countries began that way and went on to independent thought and creation….creation, I believe, they protect using the same laws they broke in the first place :-)

January 7, 2010 @ 11:36 am | Comment

Thanks for commenting here, Michael. Very well said.

January 7, 2010 @ 11:57 am | Comment

Way off topic but need a little help. Got married back in May 2008 to a Chongqing girl, she was 5 months pregnant at the time. She gave birth in August and then abandoned the child in December. She returned in June while I was away working, duped the nanny and kidnapped my son. 1 month later she sent a text extorting me for 1,000,000 RMB if I ever want to see my son. Contacted the American Embassy, said I must follow Chinese law. Retained a lawyer, and trying to go through divorce proceedings now. The court judge came to my house and told me if I give the court 50,000RMB they can get my son back to me. Embassy reluctant to chime in. Any experiences out there? How about a lawyer that is ethical and not trying to “price gouge” the foreigner with a gleam in their eye.

January 7, 2010 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

“What are you if not a moron? (Asked with deep respect.)”

How original.

“If we cannot own our work and protect it, if it’s all for free, what’s the incentive to create?”

Right, if it weren’t for intellectual property, we’d still be living in caves!

“America has a deep commitment to intellectual property, ”

Not really. In the 19th century, the US is like China today, “stealing” all sorts of Old World technology to the embitterment of Europe.

“But without it, you can guarantee a less creative people, with a lot more effort spent on copycatting than on creating.”

Pay closer attention to history and you’ll realize that human civilization thrives on “copycatting”. Everything from the paper you use to car engines to the chocolate you eat is stolen OVER AND OVER again by various nations and individuals. Through what you call “copycatting”, “thieves” then adds their own ideas to the product and only then could it be improved. Kinda like an open-source software. That’s how human civilization works.

The idea of “intellectual property” serve as a deterrence to the spread of human civilization…It prevents the passing down of knowledge to the less fortunate, and limits the flow of knowledge within a small group of elites. It is a ruthless form of censorship, with far-reaching political and economic consequences.

“To count as censorship, the purpose of restricting information has to be to influence morals or ideology.”

Actually, Webster dictionary defines censorship as following:
1. Counterintelligence achieved by banning or deleting any information of value to the enemy.
2. Deleting parts of publications or correspondence or theatrical performances.

As far as the dictionary is concerned, it doesn’t have to be political. Moreover, as an unrepentan tMarxist, I see politics and economics as organic and inseparable.

Finally, I did not argue censorship in China is “no different” than censorship in the US…that would be quite an oversimplification.

January 7, 2010 @ 12:40 pm | Comment

In the 19th century we didn’t have patents or intellectual property, at least not as we do today. It was a vastly different world. Once the legal frameworks were established, the US has had a pretty good track record of adhering to them. For you to point to more than 100 years ago is disingenuous. Those laws didn’t exist then. How could the US have stuck to them? But following up on that, what are you referring to – what did the US steal? Maybe you have a point; explain.

There may be something to say for copying. Maybe. But that doesn’t discount the incredible power of ingenuity, the kind of thinking that makes Silicon Valley the world leader in tech innovation. Without IP it would be a whole different tech world. Many innovators simply wouldn’t bother. Authors wouldn’t get paid, anyone’s work could be claimed by someone else.

Anyway, this is a kind of dumb argument. Those who do the copying are quick to discount IP and tout intellectual theft. Those who do the inventing, the thinking, the work have a somewhat different attitude. Which side would you rather be on?

That doesn’t mean everything needs to be expensive and proprietary. I’m all for open source, and I was supportive when third-world countries began to manufacture copied retroviral drugs to fight AIDS. But all civilized countries, without exception, understand the value of thought and invention and the importance of owning and protecting what you create. I suspect it’s mostly those who doubt their own ability to create themselves who disparage IP.

Thread drift. The trolls know how to steer away from topics that embarrass them, the way Red Star did up above. I shouldn’t fall for the bait.

January 7, 2010 @ 1:25 pm | Comment

2 Twisted_Colour –Serve, given your attitude, do you think Stern Hu (胡士泰) should be released from Chinese custody? After all, all he did was facilitate the transfer of information from rival companies.

Think bigger,this is a signal sent to Rit,Monsanto,Goldman,do not manipulate the market,we know your plot.Do not fxxk around.

January 7, 2010 @ 1:25 pm | Comment

Since this is an open thread, I’d like to direct everyone’s attention to this extraordinary post at China Smack. Wow. Chutzpah personified.

January 7, 2010 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Ra, look at my blogroll to the left and find China Law Blog. You may want to send him an email. He may find it an interesting thing to post.

January 7, 2010 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

well,i still stay in Xi’an of China.

i’ve had to use a web proxy to visited your Peckingduck,anytime.

evry country has its own situation. it won’t be changed just because we post some opiniono.

as you all can see,people found a way to got the information what they need final,like your guys always try to find the truth about what China is,what happened in XiZang…..

anyway,i’m not agree with the”the most open in the world” at all.

happy new year R, miss you so much.

January 7, 2010 @ 1:59 pm | Comment

Opps. Sorry, connection issues, I guess. My computer seems to take a grudge against you for deleting my posts the last time…Your site doesn’t show up well.

January 7, 2010 @ 3:33 pm | Comment

Can internet censorhip in China be a Violation of WTO commitments?

http://tinyurl.com/yz43sgk

January 7, 2010 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

There is something to be said for copying. Red Star is correct…but then again there is something to be said for rewarding your best talents too :-) China, Europe, the US, all had great ideas that they made sure no one else could copy. This made it all the better to try and replicate and from there ingenuity grew…but not before good money was made. Heck, even tonight, I made a chicken liver dish where I tried to copy something I had in a restaurant. I did modify it by adding spatzle (my Austrian heritage…) – so you see, there’s an idea being taken further. But in all this, the restaurant can still make money and I’ll still pay them for that dish (it’s rather yummy).

Hexi, opinions posted online can be rather persuasive. Why do you think there are countries where opinions are moderated out of existance? Did I not read that there are those in China employed (or even take it upon themselves) to steer opinions to a more…..politically sound footing? Certainly opinions in Iran seem to have stirred up a bit of a ruckus.
As you say, if one looks hard enough, the truth will out. However, many don’t really want to look for the truth. Many like being told the truth. And sometimes the truth is distorted by what one is looking for. If I want, I’d find out China’s economy is on a one way trip to oblivion…but only by searching out those stories and opinions that tell me it is. Luckily, while looking, I find numerous stories telling me it’s not going to go pearshaped for a while yet :-)
Xi’an, eh? Wife tells me of your famous dish from there. We have a Xi’an restaurant in Birkenhead (on the North Shore part of Auckland) where I tried it. Lamb stew…fat on the top to keep the heat in. Rather tasty, have to say, though wife tells me it’s not quite the same.

My sister in law, father in law too, come to that, spent hours on the Chinese BBC when they were here. Dunno if it changed thier outlook, but they seemed content to hear another opinion they hadn’t got a chance to hear before. Oddly, they didn’t become anti-Communist rabble rousers when they went back. Same way, I guess, we westerners don’t become serial rapist jihadi terrorist whatevers even though all that stuff is freely available online here…

January 7, 2010 @ 4:22 pm | Comment

“Sex and violence, like Danwei, Peking Duck and Fool’s Mountain?”

The Duck Straits

“My life makes perfect sense
drugs and food and violence…
sex and money are major kicks…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_gLU0H0BlU&feature=fvw

You may need a high rated proxy to get through to it though…

January 7, 2010 @ 4:59 pm | Comment

“Same way, I guess, we westerners don’t become serial rapist jihadi terrorist
whatevers even though all that stuff is freely available online here…”

After seen CCTV soap operas and reality shows?

January 7, 2010 @ 5:04 pm | Comment

“Dunno if it changed thier outlook, but they seemed content to hear another opinion they hadn’t got a chance to hear before. Oddly, they didn’t become anti-Communist rabble rousers when they went back”

Chinese are underachieve not idiots.They just be politely and say some perfunctory words. We prefer the old-traditional quietness of power not the western “reform from the individual passion”.

January 7, 2010 @ 5:36 pm | Comment

@ smatter: Think bigger,this is a signal sent to Rit,Monsanto,Goldman,do not manipulate the market,we know your plot.Do not fxxk around.

So, the best way to deal with big thieves is to ignore small thieves?

January 7, 2010 @ 6:31 pm | Comment

From link poste about: WSJ

“If China does not change its Internet censorship practices, it is likely to soon face another WTO dispute. The online market in China is simply too big for Europe and the U.S. to let trade-distorting regulations pass without action. Victories at the WTO on this front would be wins both for commerce and for civil rights.”

January 7, 2010 @ 7:28 pm | Comment

2 Twisted_Colour – IP is the means and not the end.

January 7, 2010 @ 7:50 pm | Comment

The end being…????

January 7, 2010 @ 7:56 pm | Comment

the best way to deal with big thieves–my answer is to keep low profile and act unexpected.

I heard of that english version of Global Times is a bit more open than chinese version,is that true?

January 7, 2010 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

2 Twisted_Colour –see the documentary “Food Inc” and “The Corporation”

January 7, 2010 @ 7:59 pm | Comment

Sorry, I couldn’t resist linking to this article. The western media/academia has officially lost it:

http://tinyurl.com/ycplbe6

This reminds me of “Dow 36,000″, that infamous book that came out just before the tech bubble burst. Not to say that China will in any way burst, but the prognostication has hit the level of madness that usually signals some sort of peak.

January 7, 2010 @ 10:52 pm | Comment

Exponential increase is follows by exponential decrease, after and inflection point, until the possible level is reached.

Happens in economy and biology. If you let your mind run away with predictions while in the ramping up of the exponential growth curve you get some wild predictions.

The question for China is where does the inflection point lies between growth an decrease, and which level can be achieved given its local conditions.

The location of the inflection point is hard to predict, it may happen abruptly at any point of the exponential growth curve without any forewarning.

January 7, 2010 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

And there is the hit the wall effect. Go back to zero no matter how exponential the growth was.

Ask any participant of ponzi schemes, or living beings in a biological environment with limited food supplies.

January 7, 2010 @ 11:17 pm | Comment

RedStar, I didn’t delete your comment.

January 7, 2010 @ 11:25 pm | Comment

Intellectual products do have values, often times monetary values. The question is how you price an intellectual product in a developing country like China? Or more importantly who decides how much an intellectual product is worth? What China is doing is to take the decision making power away from Western countries and set the prices of intellectual products according to the Chinese market conditions. I applaud China for doing this. Russia is somewhat doing the same thing. Most other developing countries are either too dumb or to weak to do it.

January 8, 2010 @ 1:35 am | Comment

“RedStar, I didn’t delete your comment.”

The Net Nanny?

January 8, 2010 @ 4:01 am | Comment

“They just be politely and say some perfunctory words. We prefer the old-traditional quietness of power not the western “reform from the individual passion”.”

Uh huh. So, how many riots (reported) were there in China in 2009?

“Intellectual products do have values, often times monetary values. The question is how you price an intellectual product in a developing country like China? Or more importantly who decides how much an intellectual product is worth?”
So, from IP being wrong to IP being OK. How do you price something in a developing country flush with cash? I dare say the market decides – and China hasn’t shirked from buying enough from the west with cold hard cash.
There are ways of getting IP legitimately. The NYT has a few stories of interest… Here is a legit way of getting what you need. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/world/asia/07scholar.html?ref=world

January 8, 2010 @ 4:31 am | Comment

“RedStar, I didn’t delete your comment.”

That’s funny…Because my posts just mysteriously disappeared…AGAIN.

Not to imply that that Americans like you are guilty of censorship or murdering Afghans, of course.

January 8, 2010 @ 5:34 am | Comment

One of your comments got stuck in the spam filter and then it ran. But I have heartbreaking news: you are never commenting here again.

January 8, 2010 @ 5:51 am | Comment

self-dillusional

self-delusional*

go back to your worthless public elementary school

January 8, 2010 @ 6:18 am | Comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXFuZwqGrCU

Is that you, nanhe?

Are you ready to “come out” too? No wonder you supported Obama. You wanted your “brothers and sisters” to become more active in your “RAHOWA”

January 8, 2010 @ 6:30 am | Comment

What China is doing is to take the decision making power away from Western countries and set the prices of intellectual products according to the Chinese market conditions

Western countries don’t set the price of intellectual property, if they did they would probably do as bad a job of it as every other state which attempts to set prices by command.

Personally I think China’s greatest gift to the world last century was to demonstrate conclusively how millions of people can be lifted out of poverty once a country starts moving AWAY from Marxism and Marxist-inspired ideologies.

January 8, 2010 @ 6:48 am | Comment

What are you going on about Ferin? (And I admit, that is one creepy video. I hope readers can take the time to watch it.)

Excellent review of the book, Standoff at Tiananmen over here.

And here’s another article on China’s imminent rise to Superpowerdom, with a twist.

January 8, 2010 @ 7:28 am | Comment

What are you going on about Ferin?

He’s just indulging in a little race-baiting because he’s such a classy guy.

January 8, 2010 @ 7:44 am | Comment

Yeah; it was a rhetorical question.

January 8, 2010 @ 7:46 am | Comment

being a superpower generally requires superpower ambition

January 8, 2010 @ 8:16 am | Comment

@ merpingobnoxitangentialist

That vid reminds me of the mobs that accosted foreigners outside Carrefour stores in China a while back. Except that in the Chinese case it was more mainstream than lunatic fringe; and their nationalistic fury was vented with the blessing of the state.

Were you one of the blessed?

Do tell.

You’re among friends here.

January 8, 2010 @ 8:35 am | Comment

Stuart, I really wouldn’t go that far. What you see in that video is a deep and perverted hatred of blacks and Jews that I would hardly equate with China’s flare-up against France, which died down after a few months, just like the flare-up against the US after the Belgrade embassy bombing. The monsters in that video are actually swearing allegiance to Adolf Hitler and advocating thuggery, violence and murder. They actually have killed people. I won’t compare that kind of savagery with some angry demonstrators in front of Carrefour. Not at all.

January 8, 2010 @ 9:14 am | Comment

I always wonder about these expert predictions. So hard to see into the future… Can China be a superpower? I thik so – even with a backyard of peasantry. Not sure about the provinces (as an aside, we do we always use Tibet instead of Xizang and Xinjiang instead of Turkestan? Why never Chinese for both? Or not Chinese for both? I guess I have too much time on my hands…) but even the rich part of China is a huge chunk of real estate. Can one have a 2 tier country?
As it is, my in laws are happy in China. They can’t think of living abroad though they like to visit. Censorship is, to them, pointless, as they can have all the info they need about what the CCP don’t want them to hear just by travelling abroad. If you look around Auckland, pretty much the majority of youth here are Chinese – students that couldn’t quite make it into a good university at home. As I see it, it’s the same in all cities and towns in NZ with centres of further education…and it’s the same in Oz. That’s a hefty number of kids getting qualifications that they’d probably want to use back in China. Link that to the article about researchers “going home” and it makes one think. These are the bright ones, the leaders, the future manipulators of people. All having access to our decadent and uncensored western information. Yet somehow I don’t read of the CCP being worried about it…so why censorship to that degree in China itself?

January 8, 2010 @ 9:20 am | Comment

“What you see in that video is a deep and perverted hatred of blacks and Jews that I would hardly equate with China’s flare-up against France…”

Nor would I, actually.

But I would stand by my comment that the occasional nationalistic outbursts in China are “more mainstream than lunatic fringe”. And that, I believe, makes them more of a deadly dam waiting to burst than the constant annoyance of a dripping tap.

January 8, 2010 @ 10:22 am | Comment

stuart– Tell me why China can not open a Carrefive at France while France can spread its chain nationwide.

January 8, 2010 @ 5:30 pm | Comment

Tell me why China can not open a Carrefive at France while France can spread its chain nationwide.

France doesn’t need Carrefive, whereas Carrefour’s success in China points to the fact that China wants Carrefour. Don’t blame the French for that.

January 8, 2010 @ 6:30 pm | Comment

Carrefive? You jest, surely.

Is that the best China could come up with?

Whatever next? Saferways?

January 8, 2010 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

In china, as long as you are a Chinese citizen, you have the right to vote and be voted. when i lived in china, i participated in multiple elections: elections for community council leader, elections for university student council, election for municipal legislative representatives, etc. Now, in America, i was robbed of these basic political rights.

January 9, 2010 @ 3:19 am | Comment

We elect our local, state and federal officials. How were you robbed of your rights in America?

January 9, 2010 @ 3:25 am | Comment

not a citizen?

January 9, 2010 @ 4:33 am | Comment

I must say I find TPD an almost daily must-read blog on China, not least for the quality of many the commenters (Stuart, Brendan, Buzz Lightyear, Richard himself, to name only a quick few), and Richard is a very fair-minded, tolerant and reasonable host/moderator.

Speaking, however, as someone whose job for 2 decades has involved hours poring over the state and party media of China and North Korea, I also must say that the contributions here of Red Star Over China and merp far outdo those party organs in the shamelessness of their sophistry and the boundlessness of their intellectual dishonesty. These problems represent not just occasional slips in the heat of argument, but the totality of their approach to every issue: Often, the only parts of their posts that are credible are the punctuation marks. The occasional insertion of a wikipedia(!?) entry by merp to provide facts, is negated by his/her use of such facts out of any reasonable context.

I’m all for a healthy range of opinions, and accept that strident nationalism and fenqing logic are highly representative of China’s voice at this point in history. But these two commenters live in situations where they MUST know better and they put up nonsensical statements that do not pass even the most generous of laugh tests. In my mind, that makes them trolls who subtract value, not dissenters, who might add perspective.

Why are they tolerated?

January 9, 2010 @ 5:12 am | Comment

It’s always a dilemma for me. Part of the appeal of this site, if it has any, is the diversity of the commenters, representing just about every conceivable school of thought on China. And unfortunately that includes the fenqing.

A few years ago the comments were totally open with very little moderation. Now it’s a much tighter ship. I’m much happier nowadays to ban the trolls who are truly over the top, and about half of MerpFerin’s comments don’t appear, they’re so toxic. But I do want to hear what that side has to say, and every once in a while I actually think at least some of them engage in a serious dialogue (not so often, I admit). And there’s no denying some of them provide good comic relief. Math, of course, takes the prize in that arena.

January 9, 2010 @ 5:25 am | Comment

Three main reasons why sometimes you cannot access certain sites in China:

1) Faulty internet connection, DSL and other broadband access is not as wide-spread in China as in the West. Lots of places in China still use dial-up, and those connections are prone to frequent disconnects. And sometimes ISP’s have monthly data usage caps, so sometimes you may have reached the the limit, so just wait till next month

2) Busy traffic. Certain popular sites such as yahoo or google frequently experience down times due to their popularity. This happens more frequently in China due to the larger number of internet users in China and limited bandwidth. This situation should improve after 2008.

3) Pornographic website. Chinese laws forbid websites that contain pornographic pictures and videos from being operated.

January 9, 2010 @ 6:00 am | Comment

@79 So THAT’S why I could never access Falungong porn, Tibetan porn, human rights porn, Taiwan independence porn! Eureka!

I contrast Imitation Crab Meat, who apparently truly believes what s/he is posting and may have no other point of reference, with the others I complained about above.

January 9, 2010 @ 6:22 am | Comment

But I do want to hear what that side has to say

More like you want HongXing and Math to keep posting, so you have a convenient boogeyman to justify the excesses (i.e lies) of stuart, not a sinophile, etc.

I can find no other reason why stuart is not outright banned from posting.

January 9, 2010 @ 6:33 am | Comment

I love to read this site. I also like the CCP rednecks that frequent here, there and everywhere telling us what a paradise today’s China is and the benevolence of the Communist Party of China.
It’s also apparent here with students and others who emigrated. My wife used to say she loved Mao – dunno if that was for reaction or what. She did admit that maybe a touch of brainwashing was involved in this love…
There’s No Political Rights….my siste in laws told me the same thing. I asked her if she could vote for another party ;-) Did she vote for Mr Hu? Can you cast a vote for the Nationalists? Is the KMT a political party in China (I mean PRC, not ROC)?

I know a Taiwanese lass. She’s rather adamant that she’s NOT Chinese. Ehtnically, yes, but she’s Taiwanese. I did ask her about the C part of ROC but she says if you call her Chinese, people think she’s from the mainland. She’s not, she doesn’t want to be associated with them. Can the rednecks comment on this?

January 9, 2010 @ 7:28 am | Comment

Stuart has never violated the comments policy. He’s polite even when he’s outspoken. Just like Serve the People and Crabmeat and Math – I never delete or block their comments. I may not like what they say, but they don’t violate the rules. I have no idea what you are talking about, Merp, when you refer to a “bogeyman” – you really do exist in your own cocoon of fantasy and delusion. Well, whatever floats your boat.

This is the kind of comment I am referring to. Comments that I see as evil. On the other side of the coin, many of Nanheyangrouchuanr’s comments have been deleted or blocked for obscene and eliminationist references to the Chinese people.

Slim, Crabmeat always puts up this comment about the GFW – it’s not the first time. Go take a look at this comment he wrote in June of 2007(!). (No Crab, I never forget.) And he knows it’s nonsense; he’s not stupid. Danwei, Fool’s Mountain, Peking Duck, Longbow Diaries, and scores of relatively innocuous sites which, to the best of my knowledge, host little or no pornography, are all banned, and it had nothing to do with a bad IP address or server issues or pornography. The fact that he has this canned comment ready to go anytime the topic comes up indicates he’s a shill of some sort. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

January 9, 2010 @ 8:32 am | Comment

“That includes those of you who need a proxy to access this site over in the world’s most open Internet.”

That includes 80% of U.S. workforce accessing Internet through their strict company proxy server?

I guess you’ve probably never worked in a real U.S. corporation.

January 9, 2010 @ 8:32 am | Comment

Fine, intellectual property sucks.

So when China creates far more new ideas than it exploits existing ones, I take it that there will be no complaints from China or Chinese people when its inventions are ripped off?

Sure…..

January 9, 2010 @ 8:46 am | Comment

Did you pay royalty to chinese for each piece of paper you used? Did Chinese complain?

January 9, 2010 @ 8:50 am | Comment

Raj, precisely.

97: Did you pay royalty to chinese for each piece of paper you used?

We are talking about intellectual property. Do you know what intellectual property is?

That includes 80% of U.S. workforce accessing Internet through their strict company proxy server?

I guess you’ve probably never worked in a real U.S. corporation.

Where did you get the 80 percent number? Even if it were true (and it’s not), the argument is bizarre – whoever said our employers need to give us free access to the Internet? And yet they do, and none of the many “real” US companies I’ve worked with/for ever censored its Internet. You really owe us a source.

I try to be nice, but sometimes my threshold for ignorance is on the low side.

January 9, 2010 @ 9:01 am | Comment

@ feromerp

I can find no other reason why stuart is not outright banned from posting.

And the reason you’re looking for:

Stuart has never violated the comments policy. He’s polite even when he’s outspoken.

Many of the commenters you despise also disagree with my views, Merp, but we exchange opinions without resorting to vitriol or petty insult. You would do better in these debates if referred to the British handbook of gentlemanly conduct before engaging your keyboard.

At present your trigger points are too easily identifiable and their threshold is set way too low.

January 9, 2010 @ 9:06 am | Comment

Imitation Crab Meat- I’ve never done this before, but you really must be on somebody’s payroll. Either that or this is what Qin Gang does in his spare time. You know damn well that everyone here knows you’re lying.

January 9, 2010 @ 9:25 am | Comment

@Mike Goldthorpe,

The very reasons that you (and many others, including stuart who feels hurt by some Chinese racists in the past and transformed into a China hater subsequently) frequent this site instead of some Taiwan sites speak volumes – they are irrelevant now and is going even more down the hill in terms of relevance (you would know that if you’ve paid attention to what have happened there in the past 10 years or so).

So why bother?

January 9, 2010 @ 9:50 am | Comment

oiasunset
Please elaborate. She’s was not the only Taiwanese with a dislike of PRC.
And how are these sites irrelevant? A non-Chinese (for that read not CCP approved) view of China and the Chinese not to your liking? Not to the ruling party’s liking? Again, elaborate.
If you have any Taiwan sites (in English – I’m only married to a Chinese woman, not a complete convert) I can go to, please let me know :-) I’d be only too glad to frequent them.
Just so’s you know, I’m only passively interested in China and the Chinese. I married a Chinese woman, have two daughters and enjoy going there. She’s from Nantong, btw. Will I learn Chinese? Doubt it. In laws speak Nantong, Shanghai and some Jiangsu dialects, so I’d never understand them. I’m still trying to learn German properly (my mother is Austrian)!
But I’d be most interested in your views…in a bit more detail and with a bit less arrogance. You are not better than me, as I am not better than you. Speak to me as I’d speak to you – an equal.

January 9, 2010 @ 11:44 am | Comment

“…including stuart who feels hurt by some Chinese racists in the past and transformed into a China hater subsequently”

Grow up, old sport. There’s far too much straw in that ‘argument’.

I’m incapable of hating China. I do, however, have a very acute loathing of the direction in which the CCP seems determined to take the planet.

And so long as you remain incapable of comprehending the potential dangers ahead you should be thankful that I can see it all very clearly.

January 9, 2010 @ 12:15 pm | Comment

Oia is one of those “problem” commenters, I’m afraid. My apologies, Mike.

January 9, 2010 @ 12:46 pm | Comment

Richard, I am sure he or she is. But they’re also human and maybe can be made to, well, argue in a civilised fashion. After all, China does have a 5000 year history of civilisation….apparently ;-)

January 9, 2010 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

Mike:

She is one of the hard core DPP supporters. I happen to know one woman like that. She categorically denied her Chinese heritage and proclaimed an entirely separate Taiwanese identity. Then one day the multinational company she worked for sent her to its Beijing office. The company apparently did not agree with her about her ethnic background. It thought that she can make a better contribution to the company because of her Chinese heritage.

Without the courage to resign from the company, she moved to Beijing. Nowadays she tells people how proud she is being Chinese.

January 9, 2010 @ 1:53 pm | Comment

It’s interesting the same group of people on one hand complain about IP in china, on the other hand they complain Chinese doesn’t have free access to anything, especially their “intellectural products”, on the web.

Doesn’t it sound fishy? Incoherent at least.

January 9, 2010 @ 2:44 pm | Comment

I really don’t know why you people waste time even responding to nonsensical fenqing arguments… As for people like Kebab boy, I would have banned him basically for his repeated racism.

About IP — I think the conventional wisdom is that China won’t protect it until it produces more of its own. According to this wisdom, the government tolerates piracy and theft of IP as a way to make many products affordable that wouldn’t be otherwise to both consumers and companies — there is an economic benefit, for example, to allowing everyone cheap access to Microsoft Office. You can compare the situation to Taiwan, which never signed the Berne Convention on copyright. (In the days before the Internet, all my Japanese music CDs were pirated copies printed in Taiwan.)

I say conventional wisdom, because it’s no longer really true. With uneven development, there are already a lot of big companies in China that have brands to protect and produce a lot of their own IP (like Lenovo or Huawei), but there are still vast numbers of small companies ripping off the IP of not just foreign companies but also the bigger Chinese enterprises. Chinese software developers basically have to give away their software for free, and rely on advertising revenue (e.g., Sougou).

This is probably why the courts have become more serious about punishing IP theft — there have been plenty of cases already where Chinese companies have been successfully sued for appropriating IP. Unfortunately, while the law may be on the creator’s side now, it is still up to companies to do most of the policing themselves! That’s probably why the last time I went to the 3.3 Mall in Beijing a few years ago, the only fake bags for sale were Coach. According to the sales lady, other foreign companies like YSL or Gucci had their own agents scouring for violators — the American product got pirated because they didn’t!

January 9, 2010 @ 3:06 pm | Comment

I think he forgot to say the mandatory word “harmonious” here in China we have the worlds most harmoniously open access to the internet (because there is only one internet no one should be saying “China’s internet”).

January 9, 2010 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

@ Mike

two daughters? Is that legal in China’s one-child policy?
I guess your wife from of a elite family ,is that right,pardon me if i cross the line.

@Serve the People
You’re close to the merit.She is the victim of marketing,ads,manipulating,materialistic without knowing invisible hands are shaping her mind,taste.

January 9, 2010 @ 3:17 pm | Comment

I happen to know a woman who trains unicorns and likes China, therefore westerners are trying to keep China down. Blaaarrrghhh (That Blaaarrrghhh was for you, Merp.)

smatter go back and read Mike’s comment. After that reread your comment to Serve, grab your dictionary and look up the word irony

January 9, 2010 @ 6:24 pm | Comment

@Mike Goldthorpe,

You misunderstood me. Not that the Taiwan sites don’t matter (they matter to those people on that island). It is Taiwan that doesn’t matter anymore.

Richard’s definition of my being a “problem commenter” stems from the fact I support Bush, go figure.

January 9, 2010 @ 7:01 pm | Comment

@Twisted_Colour
Let me put this straight, Taiwan is a wealthy nation,materialistic attitude is a by product of consumption of wealth. Is this logic wrong? Where is the irony,let me see.

@Serve the People
Is she a hard core DPP supporters,like C10? My teacher tells me that President Ma is a handsome guy and reap the votes of majority of cougars and “the half-side”.
Just of curiosity , is the girl you know ugly?

January 9, 2010 @ 8:28 pm | Comment

Oia, Bush has nothing to do with it. You can be incredibly rude, and that’s all there is to it.

Carl, were you joking or being serious?

Ni Da Ye It’s interesting the same group of people on one hand complain about IP in china, on the other hand they complain Chinese doesn’t have free access to anything, especially their “intellectural products”, on the web.

Ni Da Ye, that is a fascinating observation, although I have no idea what you mean. Somehow Internet censorship and the IP issue have become conflated. While there may be some tangential threads between the two, they are two separate issues. The fact that my site and Danwei are banned has nothing whatever to do with intellectual property.

I am getting tired of this thread; will try to put up something new later this weekend. In the meantime, I listened to the Diane Rehm show last week and heard John (Megatrends) and Dora Naisbitt talk about China’s rise in one of the most blatantly suck-uppish performances ever. You can read about it here. They seem to know where their bread is buttered.

January 10, 2010 @ 12:04 am | Comment

smatter:

The woman I talked about is in her forties. She holds a senior management position in an American pharmaceutical company. She is very career oriented. Left her husband in Taiwan when she moved to Beijing.

January 10, 2010 @ 12:34 am | Comment

@Danfried
“Chinese software developers basically have to give away their software for free, and rely on advertising revenue ”

What about Android-Market/Apple-Store online software store? Could chinese developers use its convenience and low prices to charge for their software.
Low price and convenience are the best way to fight softeare piracy. (the same could be applied to movies)

Price of applications on both markets is low, but it can be compensated by a greater number of customers.

If there any chinese online software store ?

January 10, 2010 @ 12:43 am | Comment

Don’t know if she has turned to a cougar since coming to Beijing.

January 10, 2010 @ 12:43 am | Comment

Burn China Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrn

Contrarian Investor Sees Economic Crash in China
by David Barboza
Friday, January 8, 2010

provided by
The New York Times

James S. Chanos built one of the largest fortunes on Wall Street by foreseeing the collapse of Enron and other highflying companies whose stories were too good to be true.

Now Mr. Chanos, a wealthy hedge fund investor, is working to bust the myth of the biggest conglomerate of all: China Inc.

As most of the world bets on China to help lift the global economy out of recession, Mr. Chanos is warning that China’s hyperstimulated economy is headed for a crash, rather than the sustained boom that most economists predict. Its surging real estate sector, buoyed by a flood of speculative capital, looks like “Dubai times 1,000 — or worse,” he frets. He even suspects that Beijing is cooking its books, faking, among other things, its eye-popping growth rates of more than 8 percent.
More from NYTimes.com:

• More on the Magic of RICO

• To Slow Growth, China Raises an Interest Rate

• Retailers See Holiday Sales Rebound From 2008

“Bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses,” he said in a recent appearance on CNBC. “And there’s no bigger credit excess than in China.” He is planning a speech later this month at the University of Oxford to drive home his point.

As America’s pre-eminent short-seller — he bets big money that companies’ strategies will fail — Mr. Chanos’s narrative runs counter to the prevailing wisdom on China. Most economists and governments expect Chinese growth momentum to continue this year, buoyed by what remains of a $586 billion government stimulus program that began last year, meant to lift exports and consumption among Chinese consumers.

Still, betting against China will not be easy. Because foreigners are restricted from investing in stocks listed inside China, Mr. Chanos has said he is searching for other ways to make his bets, including focusing on construction- and infrastructure-related companies that sell cement, coal, steel and iron ore.

Mr. Chanos, 51, whose hedge fund, Kynikos Associates, based in New York, has $6 billion under management, is hardly the only skeptic on China. But he is certainly the most prominent and vocal.

For all his record of prescience — in addition to predicting Enron’s demise, he also spotted the looming problems of Tyco International, the Boston Market restaurant chain and, more recently, home builders and some of the world’s biggest banks — his detractors say that he knows little or nothing about China or its economy and that his bearish calls should be ignored.

“I find it interesting that people who couldn’t spell China 10 years ago are now experts on China,” said Jim Rogers, who co-founded the Quantum Fund with George Soros and now lives in Singapore. “China is not in a bubble.”

Colleagues acknowledge that Mr. Chanos began studying China’s economy in earnest only last summer and sent out e-mail messages seeking expert opinion.

But he is tagging along with the bears, who see mounting evidence that China’s stimulus package and aggressive bank lending are creating artificial demand, raising the risk of a wave of nonperforming loans.

“In China, he seems to see the excesses, to the third and fourth power, that he’s been tilting against all these decades,” said Jim Grant, a longtime friend and the editor of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer, who is also bearish on China. “He homes in on the excesses of the markets and profits from them. That’s been his stock and trade.”

Mr. Chanos declined to be interviewed, citing his continuing research on China. But he has already been spreading the view that the China miracle is blinding investors to the risk that the country is producing far too much.

“The Chinese,” he warned in an interview in November with Politico.com, “are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell.”

In December, he appeared on CNBC to discuss how he had already begun taking short positions, hoping to profit from a China collapse.

In recent months, a growing number of analysts, and some Chinese officials, have also warned that asset bubbles might emerge in China.

The nation’s huge stimulus program and record bank lending, estimated to have doubled last year from 2008, pumped billions of dollars into the economy, reigniting growth.

But many analysts now say that money, along with huge foreign inflows of “speculative capital,” has been funneled into the stock and real estate markets.

A result, they say, has been soaring prices and a resumption of the building boom that was under way in early 2008 — one that Mr. Chanos and others have called wasteful and overdone.

“It’s going to be a bust,” said Gordon G. Chang, whose book, “The Coming Collapse of China” (Random House), warned in 2001 of such a crash.

Friends and colleagues say Mr. Chanos is comfortable betting against the crowd — even if that crowd includes the likes of Warren E. Buffett and Wilbur L. Ross Jr., two other towering figures of the investment world.

A contrarian by nature, Mr. Chanos researches companies, pores over public filings to sift out clues to fraud and deceptive accounting, and then decides whether a stock is overvalued and ready for a fall. He has a staff of 26 in the firm’s offices in New York and London, searching for other China-related information.

“His record is impressive,” said Byron R. Wien, vice chairman of Blackstone Advisory Services. “He’s no fly-by-night charlatan. And I’m bullish on China.”

Mr. Chanos grew up in Milwaukee, one of three sons born to the owners of a chain of dry cleaners. At Yale, he was a pre-med student before switching to economics because of what he described as a passionate interest in the way markets operate.

His guiding philosophy was discovered in a book called “The Contrarian Investor,” according to an account of his life in “The Smartest Guys in the Room,” a book that chronicled Enron’s rise and downfall.

After college, he went to Wall Street, where he worked at a series of brokerage houses before starting his own firm in 1985, out of what he later said was frustration with the way Wall Street brokers promoted stocks.

At Kynikos Associates, he created a firm focused on betting on falling stock prices. His theories are summed up in testimony he gave to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce in 2002, after the Enron debacle. His firm, he said, looks for companies that appear to have overstated earnings, like Enron; were victims of a flawed business plan, like many Internet firms; or have been engaged in “outright fraud.”

That short-sellers are held in low regard by some on Wall Street, as well as Main Street, has long troubled him.

Short-sellers were blamed for intensifying market sell-offs in the fall 2008, before the practice was temporarily banned. Regulators are now trying to decide whether to restrict the practice.

Mr. Chanos often responds to critics of short-selling by pointing to the critical role they played in identifying problems at Enron, Boston Market and other “financial disasters” over the years.

“They are often the ones wearing the white hats when it comes to looking for and identifying the bad guys,” he has said.

January 10, 2010 @ 2:07 am | Comment

Chanos may be right, but I think, as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We are assaulted every day by articles claiming China is the Next Big Thing, and then by articles insisting China’s economy is built on sand. There are similar articles about the US, too – gloom and doom vs. we’re bouncing back.

Either way, Nanhe, you are malignant.

January 10, 2010 @ 2:40 am | Comment

This is a reasonable article written by an unreasonable anti-China person John Pomfret.

“As China rises, so does its lobbying influence
Beijing’s multimillion-dollar image-and-influence campaign pays off ”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34778554/ns/world_news-washington_post/

The lesson is very simple, all those “support democratic Taiwan, support Tibetans fight against oppression, down with evil Communist China” talk from US politicians and media is not because they are morally superior, is because their political calculation tells them that saying these things will increase their support amongst their voters (with deep rooted anti-China anti-Communist prejudices from the Cold War).

This has been the way it has been for a long time, China-bashing is a fashion and there’s no cost, it’s safe, it’s trendy. But today, the political climate is changing, politicians realize the safe China-bashing is not so safe for their careers anymore, especially when their districts have business ties with China, when many factors are linked to China that can determine their political future and elections. Then suddenly the China-bashing will start to slow down, and China-praising may be slowly going up. You think it’s because the politicians lost their morality? No, it’s still political calculation, always is about political calculation.

So it’s inevitable that those pro-Tibetan, pro-Taiwanese independence, pro-Falun Gong voices and movements will lose their power and popularity in the West.

January 10, 2010 @ 2:53 am | Comment

Didn’t the same group of people predict a China post-Olympic crash? They were absolutely right about the crash, but hey where exactly did it happen? Their own backyard!

Be careful what you wish for
’cause you just might get it all
and then some you don’t want
……

–just like the song says

January 10, 2010 @ 3:04 am | Comment

Who predicted a post-Olympic crash? First time I heard about it.

January 10, 2010 @ 3:31 am | Comment

China pulls two films from Palm Springs International Film Festival for the usual ridiculous reason – the festival will run a documentary about the Dalai Lama and Tibet. Prickly, prickly.

January 10, 2010 @ 3:36 am | Comment

@HongXing:

Simply put, people get brain-washed, one way or the other.

January 10, 2010 @ 7:16 am | Comment

(with deep rooted anti-China anti-Communist prejudices from the Cold War).

You’re too optimistic, HongXing. The truth is there is a deep racial and religious element to it as well.

January 10, 2010 @ 7:25 am | Comment

Breaking news

“China is reportedly blocking its citizens from reading Wired.com, leaving us to wonder if we should be honored or outraged or both.”

Due to acute cases of Wiredphobia?

January 10, 2010 @ 7:26 am | Comment

Link to the news

http://tinyurl.com/yfkmq8a

January 10, 2010 @ 7:30 am | Comment

Who predicted a post-Olympic crash

Many. Gordon G. Chang probably included.

Stuart has never violated the comments policy. He’s polite even when he’s outspoken.

That’s besides the point. He derails threads far more than I do by lobbing nonsensical claims and outright lies and slander against China. When I respond to him, you censor my arguments. Funny how that works?

I haven’t insulted him either- just called him a troll, which is indeed all that he is. To get to the point his comments are generally worthless, offering nothing in terms of facts or insight. He is the typical foreigner who feels insulted by “uppity Orientals” and feels the need to passively-aggressively “put them in their place” over the internet- like Mike Goldthorpe, Lindel, nanhe, and Not_a_Sinophile. The latter two have suggested using nuclear weapons on Shanghai and Beijing to put “chinky Chong China” in its place.

Here is Nanhe’s “chinky chong China” quote: http://shanghaiist.com/2009/09/02/netizens_v_lou_jing_the_half-black.php

nanhe said ”

Yeah, Americans are racist, Asians are traditional.

Nah, Asians, especially chinky-chong butt sniffing commie pigs are racist bastards.

That girl is h h h h HOT! And she is even proclaiming her chinese-ness (why?) and yet the vast majority of mediocre and ugly Chinese net girls and emasculated crap youth net boys attack her. That’s right, drive her into the arms of an American or European and that is another girl China will not have to marry some scrawny cubicle bum.”

Another:

“The Koreans in Korea will also not harass/attack Japanese citizens and businesses if they lose and lose badly. China on the other hand is a bunch of snotty thugs with low skills, a quick temper and thin skin.

Yao is a good player but still hot or cold, a team of white Americans will still take chinky chong China to school on the court, the pitch, the pool and the fighting ring.”

You have to realize that, unlike me, these posters have tried to establish a brand name for themselves on the anti-China spamosphere, Richard. They may behave themselves in a particular way to barely skirt your rules- but their debauchery is out in the open for anyone to see. They are all white supremacists of one stripe or another.

This is why I just randomly generate my own usernames. I’m here for discussion, not juvenile e-posturing.

January 10, 2010 @ 7:36 am | Comment

Source on nanhe’s quote:

http://shanghaiist.com/2009/03/10/chinese_national_baseball_team_keep.php

What company you keep Richard. And he’s simply “malignant”. If I called Israel kikey-schmike Jewland would you tolerate it?

January 10, 2010 @ 7:38 am | Comment

Oh and advocated nuking Israel to put “International Jewry in its place”.

Sounds like 50% of your posters. If this is supposed to be a site where “moderates” (don’t make me laugh) congregate then it’s no big wonder why Chinese people are increasingly anti-American.

January 10, 2010 @ 7:42 am | Comment

“China is reportedly blocking its citizens from reading Wired.com, leaving us to wonder if we should be honored or outraged or both.”

It’s because Chinese doesn’t want to pay IP rights to wired.com.

January 10, 2010 @ 9:08 am | Comment

Ferin: What company you keep Richard. And he’s simply “malignant”. If I called Israel kikey-schmike Jewland would you tolerate it?

I don’t keep company with Nanhe, nor with you, Hong Xing, Math, etc. I find all of you freaks, to be honest, lonely people who have no life of their own, no accomplishments to speak of, nothing to be proud of, just undisguised rage (Math isn’t full of rage, but he’s certainly not normal). I allow them to comment although I disagree with them, because this would be a pretty dull site if I only allowed comments from people who share my worldview. When Nanhe writes obscene things about the Chinese (and he has) I delete them at once, just as I would delete your comments if they contained blatant racism. Repeat: the very idea that Nanhe is “the company I keep” is absurd and stupid. I detest him and put him in the same category as you, Ferin – an out-of-control shrieking streak of hate.

The only time you get “censored” is when you go over the top with personal insults, as everyone here – you included – knows you do all the time. You will never get censored if you engage in a reasonable dialogue, without emotional outbursts laced with personal venom.

But let me pose a question, Ferin: What are you doing here? Why are you doing this? You know I am no China-hater. My posts are hardly incendiary, and I often get accused of being a panda hugger and worse. So what’s up with the vitriol? What are you trying to achieve? I know what I’m trying to achieve, i.e., to put down my thoughts about articles I read on China and the US, and sometimes write personal diary-type entries. What about you? What do you get out of what you do? I’m just curious. You know I’ve given you lots of space to say what you want, but then you’re always ranting against me as though I’m trying to destroy China. Come on – share.

January 10, 2010 @ 9:19 am | Comment

In response to merp’s morning meltdown.

He derails threads far more than I do …

This comment reminds me of Iraq’s information minister giving a press conference and saying that the US was beaten as the tanks rolled into Bagdad behind him. He was entertaining, up to a point.

…by lobbing nonsensical claims and outright lies and slander against China.

Above all, this is a forum for discussion on matters related to China that embraces diverse opinion. An opinion is not a lie just because you disagree with it. If you think I’m wrong, convince me.

When I respond to him, you censor my arguments. Funny how that works

I guarantee the only comments of yours I don’t get to see at TPD are the ones that get nasty.

I haven’t insulted him either

I refer you to the former Iraqi Minister of Information. Ask for your money back.

I just called him a troll

Clearly that’s not the extent of it, although you’re wrong about that as well.

… his comments are generally worthless … He is the typical foreigner

A permeating analysis. Too much straw, perhaps.

I’m here for discussion, not juvenile e-posturing

It is obvious that you are capable of both. I suggest you embrace the former and abandon the latter.

…it’s no big wonder why Chinese people are increasingly anti-American.

Indeed, but the roots of those sentiments aren’t to be found on sites like this, old sport.

January 10, 2010 @ 10:37 am | Comment

What do you get out of what you do? I’m just curious. You know I’ve given you lots of space to say what you want, but then you’re always ranting against me as though I’m trying to destroy China. Come on – share.

I’m talking about the retards like nanhe who more or less represent the single-minded, idiotic mentality of most posters here. I’m not making an indictment of your blog- most people are idiots, they act even worse on the internet, and the worst of these idiots of idiots are English speakers who post on China blogs.

January 10, 2010 @ 11:19 am | Comment

Ferin, totally false. Nanhe is not representative of the commenters here. He is an aberration. No one else talks about China in eliminationist terms. And I call him on the carpet for it. He is as deranged about China as you are about the US (where, for all its horrors, you’ve chosen to live).

January 10, 2010 @ 1:18 pm | Comment

I’m agree with your point of political manipulating,Hong xing.Considering of the time of weapon-export-business with Twaiwan,it makes more sense.
I am wondering why US can hold the moral highland every time and make us looking like a loser,I think the answer is skill of marketing a Nation Brand.

@Ni Da Ye
Hello,the public is not moron,she is your wife.

January 10, 2010 @ 1:20 pm | Comment

single-minded, idiotic mentality

Self awareness, Merp never knew ye.

January 10, 2010 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

Folks that can only have one child can rest assured this is not a Chinese policy (a government official said it on the BBC while it was OK http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/question_time/4335687.stm). So even in China she can have as many as she like – the CCP man said so ;-) There is NO one child policy :-D Oddly, this kinda reminds me of this topic… ;-D

What is a DPP supporter? Does this mean supporting another party is wrong? One should only have 1 party and be thankful? Most interested…

Chian bashing…again, very interested in this. Does this mean every article published is…well, biased? Only article that are hagiographic are permitted? I would be most interested by rednecks responses…but I think I agree with Richard that the rednecks are getting too confused and are deviating from the subject at hand…

January 10, 2010 @ 3:59 pm | Comment

” are getting too confused and are deviating from the subject at hand…”

When you cannot convince, then confuse.

January 10, 2010 @ 5:39 pm | Comment

He is an aberration. No one else talks about China in eliminationist terms.

Not_a_Sinophile has not only once suggested nuclear warfare with China, but twice. He said that the “Chinese people need to be put in their place”.

Remember, when I first stumbled here, the likes of Ivan and Ned (essentially rabid Christian missionaries) were still around.

Lindel and stuart are hand-wringers, closet racists, etc. “Oh but I have a Chinese wife!” they’ll say.

you’ve chosen to live

Because you can really choose which country you’re taken to as a young child, right?

They’ve come and gone but as you can see many more come to take their place.

January 11, 2010 @ 1:24 am | Comment

Ferin, you know whenever someone says they want to kill Chinese or destroy them I am very quick to condemn them. If it’s more than a dumb one-time outburst, they’re out. Banning is for repeat offenders and the most obscene losers. But you know the rules by now, you know why I block some of your comments and why I ban lunatics who take threads wherever they want. So don’t be so coy. Lindel and Stuart tend to be quite polite and straightforward, even if I don’t always agree with them. Same with Serve the People, though I nearly always think he’s wrong. But he won’t get banned and wouldn’t get banned if you weren’t so determined to play games and see how far you can go. An exercise we’re participating in this very second.

January 11, 2010 @ 2:36 am | Comment

Such as derailing an open thread? :)

Again, most of the time I get deleted is when I “derail a thread” by countering stuart’s “BRITAIN AND AMERICA AND THE WEST ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH BETTER!!!!” arguments by providing evidence to the contrary.

January 11, 2010 @ 2:58 am | Comment

as to the question of why am I here, well why is anyone here?

I’m guessing to portray America and the West as some kind of international moral paragon by comparison to the evil PRC which is an eco-menace (as we learned from the enlightened propagandists at Copenhagen) a horrible human rights abuser, unfree, Communist, currency manipulator, IP stealer, trade cheat, heathen nation.

January 11, 2010 @ 2:59 am | Comment

I forgot Gold medal stealing, obsessed “gold medal culture”, etc. Fake fireworks, lip syncing (only happens in China). These are all direct quotes from MSM.

Other things that only happen in China (and never in a democracy) according to stuart and MSM:

- racism
- sexism
- hunger
- crime
- illiteracy
- jingoism
- counterfeiting
- prostitution
- corruption

January 11, 2010 @ 3:01 am | Comment

Never, Ferin. You only get deleted for ad hominems that are way out of line, and everyone here knows it. Or outbursts of anger that are so outrageous I won’t let them in. 99.9 percent of the commenters have no such problem. Mainly you and HongXing and Nanhe, and I treat all three of you the same. Unfortunately this plays into your already deep sense of victimhood and inferiority (though it shouldn’t – I’m just asking you to be polite and respect the topic at hand) and creates a vicious circle in which you’re perpetually indignant, acidic and hysterical. Try to calm down and see how it’s possible to discuss difficult things without hysteria.

All the items on your list are talked about in America every day as American problems. But you see, this is a blog mainly about China, so we talk about such issues in that context. If we talk of a murder that happened in Beijing, it’s quite insane to rant that there are worse murders in New York. Because we are talking about China. For the record, I’ve often written here about corruption in US politics and business, as well as racism and crime. But this isn’t Fox News, where every time you point out an issue in China you need to “balance” it by saying the US has the same problem or worse. Repeat: this blog is mainly about China. And you know how often I put in disclaimers at the end of posts acknowledging the US has similar or worse problems, don’t you? How much fairer can I be?

Once again, Ferin derails a thread.

January 11, 2010 @ 3:32 am | Comment

You only get deleted for ad hominems that are way out of line, and everyone here knows it.

That was then. N_a_S suggested nuclear warfare. I suggested he should fuck himself.

Nanhe called China “bad, evil, dirty chinky chong commie butt-sniffers”. I told him he was a foaming at the mouth moron.

Some other guy made this cute little song celebrating the deaths of Sichuanese people after the earthquake, and I told him he deserved to be shot.

That’s it. If they didn’t act like morons, I would not call them out for it. You yourself called Michelle Malkin an idiot. Does it make any difference whether or not she posts her stupidity here or on her own idiot blog?

January 11, 2010 @ 3:40 am | Comment

No one ever wrote a song here celebrating the death ofs Chinese people, unless somehow it got by me. Never. But you talk this way to everyone, including me, all the time. You don’t reserve it for Nanhe and NaS, who rarely comment here. You are like this every day, furious, indignant, ready to fight. Often you aren’t c alling out anyone, you’re just shouting to whoever will listen how the US killed Indians and had slaves. So cut the crap – anger, vitriol and obscenity are your feature characteristics.

Michelle Malkin is an idiot and worse. If she commented here I’d allow it, but I’d blast her if she said anything racist. Not sure what your point is, but let’s leave it at that, thanks.

January 11, 2010 @ 4:08 am | Comment

Oh I found it. Dale Anderson is the guy, along with his fellow retard Rohan who criticized Chinese mourners of the quake by calling them “ethnically exclusive” and then derailing the thread with some nonsense about how “evil Hans” would never feel sympathy for “Tibetan nuns” being shot in the back:

http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/05/three-minutes-of-silence/

Post 72:

Oh I wish I was Tibetan
Not a Han or Manchu
I’d say, “Now stop your frettin’”
I’d say, “Dalai Lama who?”

I’d move like Michael Jackson
Yeah, I’d do a moon walk.
I’d look around for action
And I’d shake a big rock

I’d watch the flatlands tremble
Man, I’d see them all shake
I’d watch the buildings crumble
As the rain fills up the lake

I’d watch the water swirl
See the people run amuck
I’d say, “That’s not my world.”
But I’d wish them all good luck.

If I was a Tibetan
Not a Han or Manchu
I’d watch the sun a’settin’
And leave the rest to you.

This fucking idiot is implying that Manchus are dying in the Sichuan Earthquake, makes light of the deaths in the middle of a thread where it’s clearly not appropriate, and ignores the fact that half of the victims were Tibetans themselves.

January 11, 2010 @ 4:36 am | Comment

There are 82,000 comments here. I admit, I didn’t see that one – as you can see, I didn’t participate in the latter part of the thread, it was the busiest time of my life. But look at the comment I made way above, when I was still participating in the thread: “We have a really depraved troll who is having a blast mocking the Chinese in their sorrow. Apologies. I’m deleting as fast as I can.” I guess I missed one, and no one alerted me to it. I agree, he is a fucking idiot. He was banned later on after being an ass in another thread. You know that is not a typical comment here. Everyone knows that. I do everything I can to delete toxic comments, including yours.

And now we’re in the “2 wrongs make a right” mode – if a sick racist can make hateful comments, why can’t Ferin? Neither of you can. If I sometimes miss one – and I’ve missed some of yours, Ferin, that were pretty evil – I apologize. But they are nearly always either deleted or called out.

January 11, 2010 @ 5:11 am | Comment

I just make them towards individuals. Individuals who deserve it.

January 11, 2010 @ 5:18 am | Comment

Golly. Is this what one terms a “meltdown”? ;-)
China does do corruption quite well…but Nigeria’s got you beaten hands down on that score.
I like China. I hope I get to sell my Triumph TR6 this year so’s we can pay off a few bills (incurred during maternity leave) and get a ticket to Shanghai so the grandparents can see their two grand daughters again. It’s an eye opener reading some comments here (and other sites) posted by Chinese rednecks. A few even appear to suggest the Chinese are so completely different from everyone else that we westerners cannot ever even begin to understand them. Given that my wife doesn’t understand Chinese rednecks, I dare say they’re the ones no one else can understand…. ;-)
I have been reading idly on the internet of recent – about blogging in China and how they have moderators that steer the conversation to “Ain’t the Communist Party of China just the greatest ever?!?” (because there is never a distinction between China and the CCP – seems China IS the CCP and the CCP IS China). One of the comments on one of the sites made me smile. Was from an Indian
“I belong to India, and being party to comparisons with our Sino – neighbours, as such i have a comment on this boom. Every connectivity activity in China is experiencing a boom. From SMS to photo sharing to – as this aricle points out – the blogging.

The reason for this is more than technology; it is chinese society. One child policy imposed on the entire country makes most of youtn population very lonely. In acountry if 1.25 billion they are facing a problem of connecting with guys who are from same demographics, and internet is the refuge.

The refuge will grow as long as refugees grow.”
http://www.culture-buzz.com/blog/Blog-Boom-in-China-2038.html
OK, it’s all about how the blogosphere in China is booming but I do like the lonely young men comment. Wonder if this is applicable to the rednecks here? ;-)

January 11, 2010 @ 5:22 am | Comment

Yes because they just can’t find anyone to relate to out of the hundreds of millions of young people their own age.

And I’m sure it’s those evil “waidiren” and peasants who are using their internet connections to post on peking duck.

It seems like your wife is the hick here.

January 11, 2010 @ 6:00 am | Comment

It seems like your wife is the hick here.

That’s what I mean.

Most people here come here for a civil conversation.

January 11, 2010 @ 6:05 am | Comment

Well, well. 5000 years of history and yet….

January 11, 2010 @ 6:16 am | Comment

That’s what I mean.

Most people here come here for a civil conversation.

Perhaps he shouldn’t have broadly smeared everyone who disagrees with him as a “redneck”, especially with regard to a nation where the rural community often suffers the most.

Well, well. 5000 years of history and yet…

And yet what?

January 11, 2010 @ 6:21 am | Comment

Enough. Once again we have a Ferin thread.

January 11, 2010 @ 6:59 am | Comment

Ferinthreaditis

January 11, 2010 @ 8:12 am | Comment

Richard and others, I humbly apologise for taunting the ultra-nationalists. Forgive me…but I find it amusing.

I did like this line “especially with regard to a nation where the rural community often suffers the most” (getting back on topic). How is this reported in China? I know there’s heaps of riots over land grabs – are they reported on the mainstream media? In a way, one can say China’s internet is open as I know these are blogged about (or else how would be read about them?).
Odd line, mind, given that the suppressor of these rural communities is the very organ many of the re…nationalists do their utmost to protect.

January 11, 2010 @ 8:47 am | Comment

“Never, Ferin. You only get deleted for ad hominems that are way out of line”

This I can safely vouch for; attempted character assassinations (#129), deliberate misrepresentations (#131), and random accusations (#133) are allowed to stand. Heaven only knows what manner of vitriol gets deleted.

None of these cheap shots have the remotest resemblance to either my personality or philosophies.

But as long as you continue this very CCP-esque fest of falsification, Merp, then I’m going to be setting you right.

After all, you’re human too and I’m a humanitarian; it’s my obligation to alleviate your affliction.

January 11, 2010 @ 9:21 am | Comment

I did like this line “especially with regard to a nation where the rural community often suffers the most” (getting back on topic). How is this reported in China? I know there’s heaps of riots over land grabs – are they reported on the mainstream media? In a way, one can say China’s internet is open as I know these are blogged about (or else how would be read about them?).

You clearly don’t understand Chinese nationalism, which is overwhelmingly a force for good. Regardless, yes it is indeed reported on blogs. Sometimes they get taken down but it’s not really efficient enough to stem the tide of information. Don’t think the CCP is putting a full effort into curbing reports in land grabs. Which, I hope, is a sign that there is disagreement within the CCP on how these things should be conducted.

This I can safely vouch for; attempted character assassinations (#129), deliberate misrepresentations (#131), and random accusations (#133) are allowed to stand. Heaven only knows what manner of vitriol gets deleted.

Oh hey, sounds exactly like what you try (and fail) to do to me.

January 11, 2010 @ 9:42 am | Comment

“Oh hey, sounds exactly like what you try (and fail) to do to me.”

Nope.

Find me one ad hominem attack from me against your fine personage. Opposition to some of your views you’ll find aplenty. Attacks? Not so much, old sport.

It’s just not cricket.

Hey, here’s one you’ll like:

http://tinyurl.com/ydues2e

January 11, 2010 @ 10:56 am | Comment

Is Chinese nationalism any different from other nationalisms? Overwhelmingly a force for good? How so? All nationalism can be seen a force for good….for the nationalist. For those that get in the way it isn’t quite as wholesome…and by this I single out no nationality.
I have read about how what we see happening is part of a power play by different factions in the monolithic CCP – indeed, I recall reading a story that the Turkestan uprising (I think – might have been the Tibetan one beforehand…I’ll have to do some cyber skiving to find the ref…until then you’ll have to accept this anecdote as given…sorry! ;-) ) was in a small way allowed to occur because it was advantageous to one faction.
If this is the case, surely it would be better to have a multiparty type of government. If, after all, nationalism is an overwhelming force for good then all parties would have China’s best interests at heart – just have a different way of going about it, no?
No look at that. A discussion…with cool tempers and amicability :-)

January 11, 2010 @ 11:12 am | Comment

Prepare yourselves for a Fallows masterclass in the next few days. In his own words:

“Upcoming: a business-strategy analysis of China’s negotiating objectives, and a view from the U.S. side. And a reminder of why this matters: quite a bit about the prospects for dealing with climate change, plus the larger prospects for China’s “peaceful rise,” depends on the interpretations of what just happened in Copenhagen, and why.”

Guaranteed not to disappoint.

January 11, 2010 @ 11:44 am | Comment

Typical.This is what we call “plug your ears while stealing a bell”.
The grip is becoming more and more tight.And in the new year they decided to begin with the “Bulletin board system” aka bbs.At the end of last year,the government began to enforce its “Online user interactive service registration policy”,and lifted all existing permissions.In other words,you have to apply for a registration for the “interactive content” on your site(include but not limited to forums,bbs,comment sections,etc.)If you don’t apply or the application is turned down due to deemed “improper contents” on your site,the site will be taken offline without notice and site database(s) be detained for further investigation.
Sounds reasonable,doesn’t it.But in China,you never take anything at face value.In this case,it’s one matter that you send the application,but whether or not the application will pass is another.As far as I know the permission had so far only been given to the site which either are too famous to be taken down or are state owned(wholly or partly).No permission goes to individual site owners.Most of the individual owned Chinese online forums I frequent had been gone through a down time range from less than 2 days to one month and some are still offline.And on a side note,the Chinese isps had blocked the 80 port of all their adsl users which means setup a public http site via adsl(which provides dynamic ip) is no more possible.
To escape from the de facto lockdown,many of the site owners shifted to overseas hosts,which made them vulnerable to the GFW.If things goes on like this,my guess is by the end of 2010,over 90% of Chinese sites with “user interactive services” will be dead or blocked.And what they’ve done(and still are doing) to the net in Xinjiang makes it more disturbing.The government is using the de facto Xinjiang Intranet as a testground for manipulation of the net and observe the reaction of the netizens.A Xinjiang member of an individual owned forum(of course using American host) which I frequent had written a brief introduce to the lockdown and current situation,and also some(hard to obtain) method to bypass the lockdown.But it’s in Chinese and I don’t have time to translate it,yet.Anyway here it is:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc23kqrx_215zqn72dm
And today he made a brief update of current situation,with a mocking tone:
“After taking down almost 2000 sites which were not registered or registered with false infomation,Xinjiang netizens first ushered the grand opening of to major “official site”:Xinhuanet and people.com.cn.The Xinjiang Intranet is full of joy an elation,The People had expressed that this shows that the government are taking meticulous care of the living of The People.
And at a little over 0 o’clock UTC+8 today,Xinjiang Intranet again ushered two other major sites-sina and sohu.The netizens are blasting with joy!
‘It’s more than enough with sina and sohu,no need for other sites’
‘These two sites which were opened by government do wonders to my study and work,I’m quite satisfied!’
Maybe these will be the headline of today’s morning papers.
————————————————-

Alright,so much for the moonshine.
Here I’ll show you people The “Deceive the People Ver.2010″……
http://i48.tinypic.com/wi7ah.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/12542vp.jpg
What,you can’t see any anomaly?
OK,let me tell you:
The pages on these sites are all static pages which should have gone through careful filtering and censoring.No “user interactive services”,no bbs,no comments,no chatrooms,nothing.The most important part is if you do a trace,you’ll find that the servers which those sites are using are all specially set up INSIDE Xinjiang.”
I believe government is poking around to find the bottomline and doing some researches on the reactions of people that are caged in intranet after they have experienced the internet.I’m afraid once they are done they will try to push the “advanced experience” to all the other provinces of China.And there are hardly any power to even make the government to think twice about it.
Damn.

January 11, 2010 @ 5:42 pm | Comment

Going back to China censoring Internet, I can understand why YouTube is being blocked. As you know, the Tibetan separatists and their western supporters use YouTube to slender China spread their anti-China propaganda. Such evil secessionist activities are certainly not tolerated by Chinese law. However if China asks YouTube nicely to remove these videos, YouTube will just use the freedom of expression bullshit to turn China down. Never mind that the same freedom of expression rhetorics are conveniently forgotten when they reject videos that they consider antisemitist, racist, or pornographic. So to make YouTube understand that anti-China separatism is as bad as antisemitism, racism, or pornography, China blocks entire YouTube. One day YouTube will realize how much they are losing from the China market and will remove the offending material. When that day comes, YouTube will be unblocked.

January 12, 2010 @ 11:38 am | Comment

“When that day comes, YouTube will be unblocked.”

Correction: if and when that day comes, it’ll be the end of free speech.

You’re confusing the truth with deliberately harmful or misleading content. Most Tibetans just want the world to know their story. Have you been to Tibet recently?

I thought not.

January 12, 2010 @ 11:57 am | Comment

I went to Shangri-La, Yunnan, a few months ago, which is considered a part of “Greater Tibet” by the Dalai. I can tell you that the many ethnic groups there, including the Tibetans, live in harmony. All are excited by the rapidly growing economy and are thankful to the country for significantly improving their living standard.

January 12, 2010 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

“I went to Shangri-La, Yunnan”

Close, but no cigar.

The nearest you could come in Zhongdian to understanding the plight of Tibetans in Tibet would be to speak with some of the monks at the beautiful Songzanglin Monastery. If you were able to find some not too suspicious of you to talk openly, you would not – conscience and honesty precluding – be able to report such a picture postcard existence.

January 12, 2010 @ 12:38 pm | Comment

Oh no,not the Tibet sh!t again.
As to the youtube argument,I cannot see your point,deceive…er,I mean SERVE the people.
If the government is really afraid of the vicious sensational videos will win the hearts of the “unknowing masses”,if they really believe they have the truth in hand,they could make their own sensational videos to win the hearts back.Everyone has the right to choose what to believe.I know people are hard to persuade sometimes but cover the other side’s mouth by force is hardly a good persuasion strategy to me and it will only push the neutral groups away.
Or is it that the government is just not able to come up with the same creativity as the opposite side?From the massive bureaus which make the officer:non-officer ratio of more than 1:26,they just cannot pick out some heart-taking ideas to counter the propaganda head-on?They hate and murdered the blossoming creativity which they can’t control then of course they’ll have some hard times finding some sparks when they need them.
As to the internet manipulation,I recently am having some problems with overseas imagehosts,the images just won’t load inside the GFW but when I access them via encrypted tunnels to bypass GFW the images load up in a flash.Videos,images,”sensitive words”,forum permissions,tapping im services,the government is in a great leap forward towards the elimination of all user generated contents and making the net “read-only” and “harmonized” with their voice only.
Oh and by the way the government is hiring at the beginning of the winter vacation.The job is “Internet content comparison( against the registered info) and domain investigate”.I suspect this has something to do with the incoming “white-list” policy.And the pay is pretty good:two months for the base wage of 2860 yuan and can be calculated by days in service.Oh did I mentioned that the targeted employee group is the “undergraduates”?See?At least our national anthem is creative and farsighted with the lyric “build our new great wall with our own blood and flesh”.
Last time the government decided to close up from the rest of the world,China left behind and rot in ignorance and arrogance then got ass raped for more than one century.And in 21th century the government again proceed to close up from the rest of the internet.People just don’t learn,do they?
Sigh…Sorry for the ranting.Seriously,as a member of the Mongolian ethnic group,I’m proud to be part of the Chinese people,they are smart,industrious and generally good persons.I love them.And every time I think about that they are still being fooled,being manipulated,being squeezed to the last drop by some stupid control-freak bigots,there is a rush of anger that I can’t control,yet.They don’t deserve this,THEY DON’T DESERVE THIS!

January 12, 2010 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

Are these YouTube videos anti-China because the CCP says so? Or are they genuine grievances by a minority group – I ask because there’s plenty of YouTube videos that are anti-US, anti-UK, anti-England, anti-*insert western country of choice* which can be seen in these countries. I suggest you look at any Scottish nationalist video (which are freely accessible in the UK, despite their anti-UK sentiment and secessiontist messages) and decide if the anti-Han (for even the Dalai Lama doesn’t talk of secession) messages are any different.

And please, let us be mature in our replies. I am willing to learn from you as much as you don’t care to learn from me.

January 12, 2010 @ 2:42 pm | Comment

Another story that I can’t see happening in China
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/8441084.stm
I used the BBC so Chinese readers in China aren’t corrupted in any way ;-)
The PM doesn’t like the idea, neither does the population but…
“But Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said any march should be allowed to go ahead.

“People have a right to march. People might not like it, but that’s it,” said Sir Hugh,…”
So, no guns there. No shooting. Indeed, a policeman, a high up in the police organisation policeman, saying it is their right – even if the people do not like it.
Would this happen in China?

Now, an example of official Chinese responses to dissent. Here’s the story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6045566.stm “Officials said the troops tried to “persuade them to go back home… but the stowaways refused and attacked the soldiers”, Xinhua reports.

“Under the circumstances, the frontier soldiers were forced to defend themselves and injured two stowaways,” the unnamed official was quoted.” Now let’s look at the video, shall we…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU
Propaganda by the west? I dunno…I just don’t see it that way. Xinhua’s story doesn’t seem to be verified by footage.

January 12, 2010 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

And finally, I think this story is most amusing
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10619736
“Three times as many New Zealanders think it is morally acceptable for a single person to view pornography on the internet than to download copyrighted video, according to a new poll.”
If I have my stereotypes right, in China it would be the exact opposite :-D After all, it’s OK to steal intellectual property from westerners, eh? But porn….think of the children!

Goodnight, all :-)

January 12, 2010 @ 4:13 pm | Comment

Sorry, one more wee story
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/10/china-gay-pageant
“Official tolerance is highly variable. Activists and grassroots organisers complain of harassment by the authorities. Websites and publications have been shut down.

And although Shanghai Pride organisers deliberately kept it low key, with no banners or parade, the authorities forced the cancellation of some events.

Despite signs of growing confidence in challenging such actions – last year, gay men faced down police conducting a sweep of a Guangzhou park – most opt for a non-confrontational approach.

Organisers hope to avoid problems by keeping Mr Gay China low-key and did not invite mainstream Chinese-language media.

“Officials could show up and say ‘your fire hydrant is in the wrong place,” said Zhang. “It is still a sensitive issue.”"
Still, as the article says, it is progress…of sorts :-)

Now really I gotta go :-D

January 12, 2010 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

“Officials could show up and say ‘your fire hydrant is in the wrong place,” said Zhang.

LOL!!!!

January 13, 2010 @ 5:20 am | Comment

In Shangri-La, I spent a long evening at a local bar by the old town with two young Tibetan men and one Hui woman, who was dating one of the Tibetans. The other Tibetan was dating a South Korean woman who was trying to convert him to Christianity. Needless to say this caused quite bit of agony on his part.

We talked about everything. Apparently the inter-ethnic relation in that area was quite good, witnessed by the Tibetan-Hui couple. To my great surprise, they told me that they had no interest in the Dalai. And they believed that Dharamsala was shit hole and can’t understand why some people even wanted to go there. In their opinion Shangri-La was the best Tibetan town (maybe after Lhasa) in the world.

January 13, 2010 @ 5:42 am | Comment

I went to Shangri-La, Yunnan, a few months ago, which is considered a part of “Greater Tibet” by the Dalai. I can tell you that the many ethnic groups there, including the Tibetans, live in harmony. All are excited by the rapidly growing economy and are thankful to the country for significantly improving their living standard.

Such a glowing, rosy picture of happiness and prosperity, who could bear to have doubts?

January 13, 2010 @ 5:42 am | Comment

Mike, Peter – thanks for the laughs. Everyone should see the video that goes with the article Mike linked to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/jan/11/china-gay-pageant

Richard is working on a big, problematic document that needs to be finished by Thursday so this site will probably remain un-updated for another day or two. The thread goes on.

January 13, 2010 @ 5:58 am | Comment

That’s the thing, Serve, people generally get along absolutely fine. Heck, if we didn’t, cities wouldn’t exist as we’d all be in our small groups fighting each other.
But the utopic scenario you describe could be applied to any other place that history has shown to be dysfunctional. Yugoslavia was a laissez faire place, where your religion/ethnic group wasn’t of any great concern. Sure, during WWII there were groups that killed anyone of differing ethnicity, but that was in a time of upheaval…past history.
But when Milosevic get into power and, as I read it, tried to Serbianise everyone, all hell broke loose. People that were best buddies ended up pointing rifles at each other, ended up raping their best mate’s sisters. It didn’t take much and it didn’t take long and no one, but no one, was able to stop the process once the madness took hold.
Everyone may be happy today…but how about in 10 years time? Or 20?
Read the history – it doesn’t take much and it doesn’t take many to stoke the flames once the process starts. Look at the Urumqi riots – Uygurs killing Han, then being killed by Han. The army brought peace…but in the right way? Are people there all happy or…is one set of the community more aggrieved?

January 13, 2010 @ 6:33 am | Comment

Who is responsible for generating ethnic hatred? The Chinese government, or the free Tibet activists? To me the answer is obvious.

January 13, 2010 @ 6:51 am | Comment

That’s the thing – who knows. In Yugoslavia, it was the government. When Yugoslavia broke up, it was Serbians who found themselves in new countries (according to Croatians, Bosniaks, etc, etc).
It’s a dance. There’s never just one party fully responsible. The government might do something that it feels promotes peace and stability but which is easily exploited by the opposition. It could be something as innocuous as, say, dismantling unsafe housing (like Kashgar old town) and moving people to new apartments. Sounds like a winner to you and me, but look how many people see it as destruction of a culture. And given the quality of modern Chinese building construction, should one of these new apartments fall….well, you can guess what people will say.
Immigration is also an issue – poor people need places to live and employment, so send them to parts of the country that needs them. Only thing is, the indigenous population are also wanting employment and feel marginalised to some extent by the incomers. Play on a few centuries of colonisation etc and what do you get?
Promote social order by removing agitators…but you don’t know who these agitators really are or who their agents are…so round up likely suspects. Use racial/ethnic profiling to make the job easier. However, this means many innocents are arrested – end result is more of the “bad” ethnic group start to harbour resentment…and we all know how that ends!
I don’t think any one group has 100% responsibility – they both feed off each other. And this can be used by unscrupulous people to their advantage. Many tell me the CCP is riven by factions – what’s stopping one faction using an activist group to embarrass the rival faction or to change the situation to their own advantage?
Saying all that, there’s one sure way to work out what people can do. Coming back to Tibet http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Tibetan-activist:-if-it-is-our-fault,-let-Beijing-invite-international-observers-11794.html
“Tibetan activist: if it is our fault, let Beijing invite international observers”

January 13, 2010 @ 7:27 am | Comment

[...] bring this up because it calls to mind a comment I left in the earlier thread: [D]on’t fool yourself about google. They may let you download a song for free. Would they hand [...]

January 13, 2010 @ 10:41 am | Pingback

@RestarOverChina
Moreover, as an unrepentant Marxist, I see politics and economics as organic and inseparable.

That’s why your reasoning suffers from the defects of being too deterministic and seeing things only on a linear progression.

January 14, 2010 @ 2:08 am | Comment

[...] But I also can’t ignore the bad, and thus below you’ll also find a post on the censorship of China’s Internet. I’m a big believer in trying to see beyond the box each of has has created for himself, the [...]

February 11, 2010 @ 5:05 am | Pingback

[...] bring this up because it calls to mind a comment I left in the earlier thread: [D]on’t fool yourself about google. They may let you download a song for free. Would they hand [...]

August 19, 2010 @ 4:39 am | Pingback

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