Obama Victory Thread

Mission accomplished.

Update: Looks like Pennsylvania, so key to any hopes McCain may have had for an upset, has gone to Obama. It also looks like we’re going to have our landslide, both in the presidential and congressional races. You can watch the projections of popular and electoral vote tallies for each state here. Excellent site. Looks like it will soon be time to gloat.

Update 2: Apparently Obama has just won Ohio. We can now invoke the L word. Ladies and gentlemen, it’s a landslide.

Update 3: Malkin, Rush and their henchmen are going ape-shit over the latest Ashley Judd-style hoax, namely that armed “Black Panthers” are intimidating voters in Philadelphia. The story is nicely debunked here. Listen to the Rush clip. Look at the clip Malkin posted. And the photos she’s posted of menacing black guards. It is pure race baiting, stoking fears of black thugs running the country if Obama wins.

One security guard holding a billy club, and it’s instantly turned into a metaphor for the black police state to come, blasted through the pipes of the wingnutosphere. Just like Ashley Judd, beaten and scarred by an out-of-control, pro-Obama nigro. Fear and racism, the only cards in their pitiful deck.

——————————
I’ll keep this up at the top until Obama’s ascension is official. Meanwhile, I can feel a heavy yoke being lifted off of America’s shoulders already. Eight years of madness are coming to an end. (And for anyone who harbors any doubts as to whether it was madness, please go here for an eloquent review of what we’ve been through, penned by a former Bush fanatic apologist admirer.) It’s time. We’re actually there. 20 or so hours.

Talk about anything – but only after you vote for Obama.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 138 Comments

As an American and a Chicagoan I am so proud!!! Yes we can!!!! Here in Sichaun Province things will no longer be the same for us “Hei Ren, Hei Gui, Hao Hei individuals, perhaps a little respect after this if Obama wins….Thank you to my fellow Americans that have done so much to try and change our policies, our image and our country into what it was envisioned to be at conception. I heart America!!

November 4, 2008 @ 10:21 am | Comment

Here are some interviews with some of America’s new pro-Repug totalitarians whose minds are dominated/controlled. Unlike in the “good ‘ole days” when information was simply blacked-out, now the truth is destroyed by flooding the airwaves with misinformation.

http://newsproject.org/videos/167

November 4, 2008 @ 10:25 am | Comment

Ahhh the madness is almost over. In perhaps a symbolic final display of idiocy, it has been alleged that GWB did not even know what the G20 was.

“Kevin Rudd has defended George Bush against claims the US President was ignorant of a prominent world organisation as American officials continued to express bewilderment at the leaking of the contents of a phone call between the two leaders.

The Prime Minister told reporters yesterday that during a phone call 10 days ago to discuss the global financial crisis, Mr Bush never asked him what the G20 was. “The purpose of my call was explicitly to discuss the role of the G20 in dealing with the global financial crisis and … the President did not make those remarks,” Mr Rudd said.

“The President had already been on the record about the significance of the G20 and other institutions in responding to the crisis.”

On October 25, The Australian reported that Mr Rudd took the call from Mr Bush on October 10 while entertaining dinner guests at Kirribilli. It was reported that during the phone call, Mr Bush asked, “What’s the G20?” and that Mr Rudd was “stunned”.

The report prompted a swift denial from the White House via an article in The Washington Post. “A US official who monitored the call denied that Bush made any such remark. In addition, the official said, Bush told Rudd during the phone call that other leaders were also advocating a G20 summit and that he was considering it.”"

http://www.watoday.com.au/national/bush-did-not-reveal-ignorance-says-rudd-20081104-5h6z.html?page=-1

November 4, 2008 @ 10:31 am | Comment

As a Brit I can’t vote … but Obama, the world is with you!

On the “If the World Could Vote” site, 741,956 from 212 countries have voted to date, with 86.9% going for Obama. In a separate survey in the UK, for every one Brit who would vote for McCain, seven would vote for Obama.

The New Yorker, incidentally, has a brilliant endorsement of Obama:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/10/13/081013taco_talk_editors

November 4, 2008 @ 10:57 am | Comment

Can Obama win popular vote but lose election? 
Even though I have many, many reservations about Obama, I really do not
want to see him lose this way. This would be the worse possible outcome, in my
opinion.

November 4, 2008 @ 11:07 am | Comment

Gordon, no worries – that article is soooo absurd. IF he wins all the states where he’s close (the states where Obama shows a four-to-seven-point lead) and IF…. Sorry, but the only chance McCain had for winning was some super-duper bombshell or an attack against the continental United States. On the eve of the Kerry-Bush election, the polls were truly up in the air. Some had Bush winning, most said it was too close to call, some showed a slender leaning toward Kerry. This election is in a different league altogether.

Ra, Rhys – yes, time to celebrate in just a few hours; we can use this thread to start the celebrations a bit early. No longer do we have to throw in a remark about how ashamed we are of our president right after admitting to people we’ve just met that we’re Americans.

November 4, 2008 @ 11:56 am | Comment

It’s a huge day, as I’ve been trying to impress upon my students in Xiamen this morning. I asked them how long it would be before there was an African Chinese president of the PRC. Their faces registered “does not compute, please input more data.” Never mind.

Btw, is that you in the ’5 tips to get a flat stomach’ ad, Richard? If so all that time down at the gym has payed off. A democrat in The White House and great abs all at the same time. A great day.

I’ll be up all night cheering for every single State. Landslide looms large …. go Obama!!!

November 4, 2008 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

I’m not so sure. The media seems to be in bed with Obama and given that none of these polls have really published anything about their sample data, I’m skeptical at best.

This election is ripe for another SCOTUS showdown. Especially if Floridian residents haven’t learned how to vote yet.

November 4, 2008 @ 12:47 pm | Comment

January 20, 2009: The End of an Error

November 4, 2008 @ 2:44 pm | Comment

Also, this extremely grubby conflict of interest is over:

“The most spectacular, and indeed sinister, conflict of interest in the world of politics and business must surely be the relationship between US Vice President Dick Cheney and Halliburton Company
Thankfully, tomorrow’s US election will bring this breathtaking conflict of interest to an end – it is a issue which has been chronically under-reported in the US media – and Halliburton’s stock price is faring poorly. It dropped another 7.3% to $US18.36 overnight, well down on this year’s July highs of $US55 a share.

The stock was trading around $US20 a share before Operation Enduring Freedom was unleashed in March 2003 and it subsequently shot up.

Halliburton has racked up some $US20 billion in revenue from the war. Meanwhile, 4,190 US troops have been killed, an estimated 100,000 have been injured and the Iraqi body count is documented at 97,000, although the real figure is would likely to be higher as there are no accurate records.

According to Congressional research data, the cost of the “Liberation of Iraq” to US taxpayers is now over $US596 billion. The cost now runs at $US12 billion a month ($US16 billion if Afghanistan is included) compared with original Pentagon estimates of $US50 billion all up .

In 2007 alone, the war and its concomitant “nation building” cost US taxpayers $US121,000 per Iraqi citizen.
Cheney’s fortunes – or according to his aides, the fortunes of the charities to which he had pledged the income from his stock options – really ballooned in the heat of the Iraq conflict in 2004 when his 433,333 Halliburton options soared in value from $US241,498 to more than $US8 million in 2005.”

I love the final paragraph:

“While Bush and Cheney appear to have adopted extremely defensive personal finance strategies, their administration’s stewardship of the national wealth, particularly in relation to Halliburton, reek of the sort of crony capitalism which would have embarrassed a South American junta.”

http://business.watoday.com.au/business/cheneys-day-is-done-20081104-5hfv.html

November 4, 2008 @ 4:19 pm | Comment

They – Bush and Cheney and their cronies – represent America’s own Great Leap Backwards.

November 4, 2008 @ 4:33 pm | Comment

Be careful what you wish for. Last year, we had a similar changeover from eons of conservative rule in Australia. Now the honeymoon is over and we find the progressives are anything but.

November 4, 2008 @ 4:34 pm | Comment

Unfortunately the Bush/Cheney legacy is not over. Here is the editorial from the NY Times for today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/opinion/04tue1.html

The audacity of this most un-American of administrations is amazing. Their behavior is shameful and the damage they have done to the world will take decades to repair.

November 4, 2008 @ 4:38 pm | Comment

The first city in America to vote has spoken. Time to start saying the L word? As in “landslide”? Considering they voted for Bush in a landslide twice before and now have gone the other way, I’m definitely impressed.

November 4, 2008 @ 5:36 pm | Comment

The times they are a-changing…thanks for the shout out to my home state of NH!

November 4, 2008 @ 6:46 pm | Comment

Live free or die.

November 4, 2008 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

Are you still in America, Richard? Will you be staying up and posting updates? Don’t forget to vote!

November 4, 2008 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

Barack Obama has undergone the most unrelenting character assassination of any person in modern history. Lies, compounded on lies. Race-baiting, guilt by association, distortion, and pure fiction. Anybody else would have melted under the the barrage of e-mail forwards, ads, commentary, and the Republican and Clinton political machines. People whine about treatment of Palin, but she hasn’t been called a Muslim, terrorist, communist, a traitor to his country, a Manchurian candidate, etc. Yet, he still is ahead in the polls. He is surviving. It is a testament to his resolve, courage, his temperament, intelligence, vision and the hope he inspires in his supporters.

If he wins, it will be a resounding defeat of Rove politics and the Republican politics of personal destruction. It is a victory America must win.

November 4, 2008 @ 9:14 pm | Comment

Talk about anything – but only after you vote for Obama.

I can’t vote, so I hope that I am not barred from the discussion.

One thing that I am sure will result from an Obama victory is that Gordon Brown’s assertion that “this is no time for a novice” will be trashed. We need change in the UK too – Brown out, Cameron in!

However, as michael says, it is important to keep things in perspective. I will give the new president a lot of goodwill because he will have a lot to deal with and some things may be beyond his control.

November 4, 2008 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

If you recall your Greek mythology, “Prometheus” was the “mutha f..cka” who pissed off Zeus because he gave mankind fire. Zeus punished his ass by chaining him to a rock atop a mountain. Every day an eagle came to eat out his liver, which regrew during the night since Prometheus was immortal. Prometheus was later freed by Hercules who killed the eagle with an arrow.

Greek mythology ROCKS!!!!!

November 4, 2008 @ 9:34 pm | Comment

“Two Thousand zero zero, party’s over whoops out of time…
Tonight I’m gonna party like it’s 1999!”

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/prince-1999-video/3863527318/?icid=VIDLRVMUS02

November 4, 2008 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

Stuart, I am in the good old PR of C. So I won’t be staying up that late, I’m afraid. I had better wake up to good news or else, as I’ve said before, I will close the blog down that day. Either for a minimum of three months, or forever. So you had all better vote.

November 4, 2008 @ 10:29 pm | Comment

Welcome ‘home’, Richard.

I’m going to stay up as long as I can hold out because I sense something momentous is about to happen. Unlike so many ‘days that shake the world’, this one is a positive.

Being a Brit I can’t vote, but as I blogged a couple of hours ago, I feel that we’re all in this one together.

November 4, 2008 @ 10:57 pm | Comment

I am so glad this only happens once every four years. (And I’m glad for you Richard, cos I remember what a state you were in four years ago.)

But.
Please.
Not everybody on the internet is American.

(Every single blog I look at today keeps on telling me to vote. And then there are all the organisations who sent me emails during the last week reminding me to work for Obama. Which I actually would, if, you know, I could.)

So, anyway, Raj…UK ftw? Fancy a cuppa and some cucumber sandwiches?

November 4, 2008 @ 11:04 pm | Comment

I am the usual pessimist here on this site, but tonight I’ll make an exception…

I really and truly hope that Obama will win.

Good luck Obama and don’t forget that the world is with you…

November 4, 2008 @ 11:30 pm | Comment

I haven’t been this excited about a foreign election. This is going to be huge!

November 4, 2008 @ 11:34 pm | Comment

Bao, why are you reversing the spelling of your name?

And fear not, it’s going to be a landslide. O, brave new world….

November 4, 2008 @ 11:36 pm | Comment

As I said in a previous post on another thread, http://www.bao.com is linking to a site that look like a online terrorist site with “live mohamet webcams”…

Check it out, it’s very sketchy… I mean, usually site with less than 2 letters are owned by real companies, etc. But this one points to a bland page with 2 links…

I watch too many movies I know, but I just don’t want to be linked to that. As I said I use bao@bao.com as my pseudo email when I post…

I am paranoid a bit I know.. Sorry for that. ;)

November 4, 2008 @ 11:43 pm | Comment

Oh, but I would prefer it if the Lib Dems got in. Pipe dream, I know, but that’s where my vote will be.

November 4, 2008 @ 11:52 pm | Comment

And if you can read between the lines Richard, I think you know why I reversed my name at this time.

November 5, 2008 @ 1:06 am | Comment

Just voted. Took 12 minutes, getting out of car to getting back into car. I voted for Barry without hesitation — but am absolutely sick to my stomach that Congress will be heavily Democratic. Those of you rah-rah’ing, beware. Watch the cat fight between the lib and moderate houses of the party. That’s the real fight folks, and Obama won’t be able to control the feeding frenzy in Congress (he goes along to get along, y’know).

November 5, 2008 @ 4:27 am | Comment

Oh, yeah – I voted for Obama but on every other office, from US Senator to local offices, if there was an R next to the name, I voted for them if I could. Many were unopposed (both parties) and many were nonpartisan (state/county judges and the like).

November 5, 2008 @ 4:34 am | Comment

Obama won’t be able to control the feeding frenzy in Congress

Is it really going to be that bad? o_0

November 5, 2008 @ 5:14 am | Comment

@Richard – Eggs, don’t count them before they’ve hatched.

November 5, 2008 @ 5:44 am | Comment

They’re not called Obamaniacs for nothing. It is that: manic.

CSPAN radio today had some great old recorded calls of LBJ to various politicos, on election night and the next early morning of 1964 (Nov. 3 and 4th). Democrats had a great year, sweeping the White House in most state, and also taking a mandate in Congress. I love LBJ, but that didn’t go so well, those next 4 years. Riots, inflation, the Vietnam War exploded.

I’m proud that a black man will be our president, and proud of our country for coming so far so fast. But let’s consider unbridled power and no checks on authority. That didn’t go so well for LBJ, and it didn’t go well for GWB.

November 5, 2008 @ 5:52 am | Comment

But let’s consider unbridled power and no checks on authority. That didn’t go so well for LBJ, and it didn’t go well for GWB.

I don’t know much about LBJ’s term in office, but you’re right about Bush at the least. Is it really that difficult to think America would get some slack with Obama – isn’t there any example where a president had at least a “fair” term and control of Congress?

November 5, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

Richard, from where I sit in Florida, it looks like Obama will do well. I did not vote for him, as you know, but I’m not all that happy with McCain either. I would really have liked to hear some ideas from either candidate on rewriting the 1947 Defense Act so that the line between contingency operations short of war, and combat operations that equate to war, would be clear enough for future presidents and members of Congress to understand. There are a plethora of stipulations that could be addressed in such a rewrite. Banning retired General Officers from employment in any corporation seeking Defense contracts would be nice, as would a prohibition against contracts delegating military combat tasks to civilians. Then, there’s CIA paramilitary operations, which should be placed squarely with the military special operations forces. Such an act could put the CIA back in the pure Intelligence only role, which is what it ought to be doing anyway. But, of course, those could be termed parochial interests. In any event, neither candidate even mumbled anything like a real plan for anything. Hopefully, there’ll be some Spring 2009 surprises, though I remain cynical. I would happily see the Republican party spin out of existence, especially if it was replaced by a Centrist party. But I see no evidence to suggest that Obama will amount to as much as a spoke in the wheel of FDR’s chair. The Economist has some faith in him, so I’ll be happy to be proven wrong on that.

November 5, 2008 @ 6:28 am | Comment

Raj, regarding whether it can really be that bad, there’s a special term for the condition where Presidency, House, and Senate are all the same party. One-party government. And if the Senate has a filibuster proof majority, it’s called….

Runaway train!

November 5, 2008 @ 7:18 am | Comment

Americans, be careful for what you wish for . . .

November 5, 2008 @ 7:41 am | Comment

Americans, be careful for what you wish for . . .

“My mum went to the polls today and all she got me was this lousy T-shirt!”

November 5, 2008 @ 7:44 am | Comment

, perhaps a little respect after this if Obama wins….

Earn it yourself. From what I garner from your posts, you deserve no respect whatsoever. I’m willing to bet that all of your rants are anchored in some isolated incident involving a woman.

November 5, 2008 @ 7:49 am | Comment

@Ferin
As a matter of fact, lost boy, I have earned it myself. The Education Bureau of Sichuan Province honored me in August with an award for earthquake relief efforts and organizing teams of volunteers to help dying Chinese people. Additionally,last week I was nominated for Distinguished Foreign Expert of Culture and Education, as I teach at a teaching college and have over 100 students currently teaching in various primary and middle schools throughout Sichuan Province. What have you done outside of illiminate your ignorance here on this site for all to say? Barack the World!!!!

November 5, 2008 @ 8:28 am | Comment

Lirelou, I am no Obamamaniac, but I’ve been hugely impressed by the way he ran his campaign, which has made me optimistic about his ability to run the country. After McCain put the keys to nuclear weapons in Sarah Palin’s hands, I could never have respect for him again. I wish you had voted for the right candidate, but I also respect your choice.

November 5, 2008 @ 8:32 am | Comment

The CCP seem to have decided on behalf of its people that the election of a black president is more than its people can stomach.

On democracy’s finest day, China appears to have blocked the BBC website. Anyone else find the same problem?

If they have, denial isn’t going to make it go away, boys. It’s one of those days – the ones that you can remember where you were and what you were doing for the rest of your life.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:09 am | Comment

Stuart, BBC news isn’t blocked here in Beijing, at least not now. Here is their link to the story that Obama has won Pennsylvania, the No. 1 most-needed state for McCain to win.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:52 am | Comment

Something is wrong in Virginia. Everybody is supporting Obama here in Fairfax county. How come McCain is still leading?

November 5, 2008 @ 10:28 am | Comment

McCain seems to be one percent ahead in VA, which has voted for GOP presidential candidates in every election since the 1980s. There are a lot of conservatives there. According to the site map I linked to in the post, Virginia is still in play.

Fox News calling Ohio for Obama was the high point of the day.

November 5, 2008 @ 10:47 am | Comment

Just saw the Pennsylvania call – but still can’t access BBC here in Xiamen.

NYT reporting Virginia too close to call.

SO FAR, SO GOOD.

November 5, 2008 @ 10:50 am | Comment

Florida also seems up in the air. The current electoral count is 195 for Obama, 75 for McCain. I wonder at what time McCain will concede.

November 5, 2008 @ 10:56 am | Comment

I’m confident (no particular reason) that Obama will take Florida. He’s now edging ahead in Virginia with 83% districts reported. Joy.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:14 am | Comment

Obama has pulled ahead in Virginia.

The problem in Florida is the high number of seniors, who are voting for McCain. Florida is the retirement state. It will be razor-close, but McCain might take it in the end. However, it won’t matter. This isn’t 2000, and Obama’s lead is now so huge that nothing can turn the tide around.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:25 am | Comment

Richard or other Americans

Why do seniors vote for McCain?

November 5, 2008 @ 11:30 am | Comment

Networks calling Virginia for Obama :)

OK, Florida, show me you that you have the courage to show these red boys the door.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:58 am | Comment

Seniors always tend to be conservative and less responsive to calls for dramatic change. They can also be gullible, which is why the McCain hate advertisements won many of them over. I saw some older people I know very well swallow the Reverend Wright propaganda and the Obama-is-a-Muslim BS. But generalities like this are pretty treacherous.

He got Virginia. It’s over. McCain is expected to concede shortly.

November 5, 2008 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is Dead…for now….

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q

November 5, 2008 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

Congratulations President Obama. What a great accomplishment. Onward and upward, God bless all.

November 5, 2008 @ 12:24 pm | Comment

It’s over. I congratulate Americans on a fine example of democracy in action. It wasn’t always pretty, but the right guy’s gonna win; and he’s going to win big.

It’ll be interesting to see what China makes of this now.

November 5, 2008 @ 12:34 pm | Comment

Let’s just hope they won’t label him superstitiously as the Double Death president…

Congrats America! We witness history again in this lifetime!

November 5, 2008 @ 12:39 pm | Comment

Brilliant campaign, good turnout, no blood in the streets (that I know of). And lastly, thank G_d, no litigated election. Over really means over, so we can move ahead now.

Next chapter? Nah, I think I’ll hold of on prognosticating and just be relieved for a while..

November 5, 2008 @ 12:42 pm | Comment

Congratulations to Senator 0bama. Hopefully he’ll continue to work for maintaining good and constructive Sino-US relations, promote peace and stability in the world, and together with China help build a harmonious world.

President Hu already phoned Senator 0bama to congratulate him, and looks forward to working with him in the future.

Here’s the Sina’s coverage of the 2008 Election:

http://news.sina.com.cn/z/2008mgdx/index.shtml

November 5, 2008 @ 12:59 pm | Comment

Hillary Clinton would have lost the election.

Hillary Clinton would have lost the election.

Hillary Clinton would have lost the election.

November 5, 2008 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

@ Stuart

“I asked them how long it would be before there was an African Chinese president of the PRC. ”

Hmm .. let me speculate. How about you start organising the people of PRC to ship in Africans as slaves to the ports of Xiamen. 400 hundred years later, the good people of Xiamen will feel so sorry for the poor buggers who are still the underclass and elect an African Chinese as the Mayor of the city so they can have something to gloat about?

Don’t register ? Never mind.

November 5, 2008 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

Wow!!!! Thank You America!!!

November 5, 2008 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

Awesome… His acceptance speech totally gave me hope! America is awesome! No doubt the only country on earth that is capable of this… Her IDEALs… Nothing like her on planet earth.

I’m really hopeful now that something is going to change!!!

Oh, I’m sure the cynicism will return tomorrow but tonight IT’S ALL GOOD BABY.

November 5, 2008 @ 1:43 pm | Comment

@WTF -

You missed the point completely. Many Africans live and work in China and it is possible, although rare, for non-Chinese to be granted citizenship and/or become members of the CCP. So why can’t an African Chinese become president of this country one day?

The answer is that, given current prejudices and attitudes in China, it would not be deemed acceptable, just as it would once have been unthinkable in America. And that’s the point: this election result indicates not only how far the USA has come since the race riots of the 1960s, it also shows how far behind China is this respect.

Obama’s victory was possible because past prejudices have been eroded to the extent that, for the vast majority, race was not a factor in choosing the next president. Racism still exists, sure; but more importantly that existence is acknowledged and discussed. China is still languishing in a state of denial concerning the deep rooted racial prejudices present in the minds of its people.

Besides, African slaves reached China long before the Americas via Arab traders during the Tang and Song dynasties, a fact that the Museum of Anthropology at Xiamen University seems particularly proud of. Any denials?

November 5, 2008 @ 2:12 pm | Comment

My congratulations to the United States of America. :-)

November 5, 2008 @ 2:16 pm | Comment

@Stuart

You are being ridiculous now. Tell me, what percentage of Chinese population is African now, let alone African Chinese? Chinese citizenship is the least valued even among countries with the same GDP per capita, people would laugh their ass off if you tried to forge a Chinese passport. Until the day the population of African Chinese in China would reach the same percentage as in USA, you are comparing Apples and Oranges. The more appropriate comparison would be between China and Japanese/South Korea

November 5, 2008 @ 2:46 pm | Comment

So why can’t an African Chinese become president of this country one day?

China is not, and never will be, a (significantly) multiracial country. It’s about as likely as a Chinese person becoming the Supreme Leader of Africa.

Never going to happen.

The answer is that, given current prejudices and attitudes in China, it would not be deemed acceptable

No. A non-Chinese ruler of China will never be acceptable. A non-Han minority, yes. The main difference is that America is not a monoracial state; ethnicity and nationality are not tied together. For 90% of the nations in the world, ethnicity is tied to nationality. This is because most of them are comprised of indigenous and non-imperialist peoples who have inhabited their respective territories for thousands of years. Lastly there’s no way I would ever trust a non-native Chinese to look after the interests of the Chinese people, including the minorities.

Very, very few of the expats in China respect the culture, give a shit about the people, or have any shred of sympathy for the poor. They’re here to get money, screw desperate third world hookers, and feel superior. The CCP is making a huge mistake giving citizenship to non-East Asians. It isn’t America; people don’t go to China because they love China or the Chinese or because they have to.

America’s story is different. First, you killed everyone that belonged to the land. Then you bought slaves and treated them worse than animals for 400 years. China never did. This is relevant because guilt over America’s past largely shapes their racial/ethnic outlook and policy today. Sometimes it’s genuine, sometimes half-hearted or underhanded but still. Giving up such a seat of power to some untrustworthy newcomer over a non-Han minority would be downright offensive, if it were to ever happen.

Regardless I’m surprised that America could actually vote for a black President and finally somewhat atone for the things it did to innocent people back then. Good job, for what it’s worth.

As a matter of fact, lost boy, I have earned it myself.

I really doubt it. Most “generous” foreigners are out to convert or in it for a little bit of moral ego masturbation. The vast majority of aid came from Overseas Chinese; including the Taiwanese.

If you are telling the truth (which I highly doubt) then of course you did the right thing.

Chinese citizenship is the least valued even among countries with the same GDP per capita, people would laugh their ass off if you tried to forge a Chinese passport.

Exactly. Arrogant Western expats don’t even pretend they want to share the burdens of China’s current painful growth. They just want to get their cut and go.

Of course once China is developed after 5,000 years of bloody suffering you’ll see some parasites start jumping ship.

November 5, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

Hillary Clinton would have lost the election.

Nah, she would have won. The economic crisis gave the Democrats a great platform to win. It might not have been as big a sweep, but she would have won.

Congratulations to Obama!

November 5, 2008 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

“Regarding trade, Obama has pressed on including on labor and environmental standards in trade agreements.

“He has also proposed to raise duties on Chinese imports to offset the undervalued Yuan and dumping of goods and also take measures against their violation of intellectual property rights.”

Nouriel Roubini

November 5, 2008 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

yeah.. Obama also finally won the election

November 5, 2008 @ 3:36 pm | Comment

Reading you Ferin, it seems the human race is doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over for eternity.

By constantly freezing the present in the past, you imply that our consciousnesses will never evolve and change. I wonder one thing, have you ever heard of this concept: Social Evolution ?

Hopefully, as the world evolves such concepts are likely to become either obsolete or irrelevant.

America is the “step one” in this process.

laura

I am very curious to see his official stance toward China now that he is in power. This will for sure be one of the next big things to come. Let’s just hope that all this bla bla about mutual understanding to promote mutual gains and global prosperity is true for the US as well and that it’s not a uni-directional message from China.

Otherwise, we’re heading for serious troubles.

I’ve just watched Obama acceptance speech, and it was moving to say the least. His message was clearly addressed to the world (I would even say some specific parts) and not just the US.

November 5, 2008 @ 3:47 pm | Comment

From David Cameron (leader of the UK Conservative Party)

“In electing Barack Obama, America has made history and proved to the world that it is a nation eager for change. This has been an exciting and inspirational contest with two great candidates. In these difficult times people everywhere are crying out for change. Barack Obama is the first of a new generation of leaders who will deliver it – he has my whole-hearted congratulations. This is an important moment not just for America but for the world. Barack Obama’s victory will give people a new opportunity to look at the United States and see her for what I believe she is – a beacon of opportunity, freedom and democracy.”

November 5, 2008 @ 3:56 pm | Comment

China had Afro-Chinese Foreign Minister!!

American whites know so little of history.

Eugene Chen
CHINA’S DYNAMIC STATESMAN (1878-1944)
EUGENE CHEN, four times Foreign Minister of Chinese government one of the most dynamic political figures of the twentieth-century, was born of Negro-Chinese-Spanish parentage in British West Indies. His family name was Akam.
Education for the law in England, he returned to Trinidad where but because of minor disagreements with the island he decided to cast his lot with the Chinese and left for where he became legal adviser to the Ministry of Communications 1912.

Eugene Chen, the lawyer who was at one time China’s Foreign Minister, married Agatha Ganteaume, who was of black French descent.

They had four children. Born in Trinidad in 1878, Chen later went to China to join the Chinese nationalist movement as a protege of Sun Yat-sen. He died while under house arrest during WWII. (Agatha had passed away years before and Chen had since remarried)

The Chinese Communists who came to power in 1949 transferred his ashes to Beijing’s Cemetary of the Heroes of the Revolution and built a memorial in his memory.

http://yuantsungchen.com/

November 5, 2008 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

@Oab

Regarding Obama’s stance toward Chinese in term of trade, I hope he would implement policies that would greatly increases Chinese domestic demand. Policies that would discourage more export-driven industries to be added to the Chinese economy. Around ten years ago, Premier Zhu RongJi revolutionized majority of the non-performing state-owned-enterprises and replaced them with private enterprise. Now it is time to move from export-driven economic model to one that is driven by domestic demand.

November 5, 2008 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

Spare a thought for the poor old comedians – Bush was so easy to mimic. Has anyone got Obama yet? If not maybe sometime next year.

November 5, 2008 @ 4:25 pm | Comment

Yaaaa-HOOOOOOO!

:-D :-D :-D

November 5, 2008 @ 4:39 pm | Comment

“Until the day the population of African Chinese in China would reach the same percentage as in USA, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.”

Another response that misses the big picture. If race is not an issue (and supposedly there is no racism in China) then the number of African Chinese in China should not be a factor.

One of the upshots of Obama’s win is that it challenges the Chinese stereotype of a fundamentally racist America where black people are routinely beaten and only escape poverty if they’re good at basketball.

November 5, 2008 @ 4:46 pm | Comment

Ferin (naturally) -
“It’s about as likely as a Chinese person becoming the Supreme Leader of Africa.”

I’m glad that statement is a matter of record here. Remember the time and place you wrote it.

“The CCP is making a huge mistake giving citizenship to non-East Asians.”

Wow!! Way to underline the point, Ferin. As I said, China has a long way to go. Opening up policy? One world, one dream?

“Giving up such a seat of power to some untrustworthy newcomer over a non-Han minority would be downright offensive.”

The measure of China’s progress will be when they no longer take offense at that thought.

November 5, 2008 @ 5:02 pm | Comment

One of the upshots of Obama’s win is that it challenges the Chinese stereotype of a fundamentally racist America where black people are routinely beaten and only escape poverty if they’re good at basketball.

Doubtless those who view America negatively because of politics/prejudice will try to say Obama was lucky/not really seen as black/not really representative of how Black Americans normally have it. Maybe something along the lines of “the reason 47% voted for McCain is because they didn’t want to vote for a black man”.

But you’re right that it should challenge the stereotypes of those who are ill-informed and open to being corrected. Obama is a great symbol for showing how America has moved on.

November 5, 2008 @ 5:04 pm | Comment

@Stuart

Maybe I missed your big picture here, but I think you missed my big picture here too.

The percentage of a race/ethic population in country contributes significantly to his/her chance getting voted. What percentages of Chinese population has interacted with Africans? Africans and especially African Chinese (goddamn, I don’t think I ever heard this term before) are just too distant to the average Chinese. Like I said, if you want to make comparison in terms of social development, you should do it between China and South Korea/Japan. There are many reasons that you don’t see any African becoming president of those two countries.

Your claim that “I asked them how long it would be before there was an African Chinese president of the PRC.” doesn’t register with your student because they never had your American experience. They don’t see in any foreseeable future that there would be increased interaction between them and African Chinese. I don’t deny that China is not free of racism, but please stop saying Chinese are denial of their racism when China is by no mean a multi-racial country. It had never occurred to majority Chinese that they need to be racial sensitive because racism is not part of their life or their history.

November 5, 2008 @ 6:27 pm | Comment

Stuart, what’s the chance of an eskimo getting elected PM of Britain? How about a Tongan – or even Chinese for that matter? Probably not much – for very much the same reasons that a black man will very unlikely be President of China – but nothing much to do with racism. Blacks have been part of America since its founding – and are 13% of the population – and after 200 years, the 44th president is a black man (based on the population the return period for a black President would be something in the order of 100/13 * 4 years = 31 years. But America has waited 200 years. What is the percentage of blacks in China? Probably the natural return period of a black president would be about 500,000 years – so Stuart your point is moot.

If a dalit became PM of India that would be a great thing – and have parallels with Obama becoming president – but it would be stupid to then say India is morally better than China because it voted a Dalit for PM whereas China never vote in a Dalit – but such an statement would be no more absurd than your one. Maybe say Tibetan for China, black for America, dalit for India and your analogy would make more sense.

But America should be congratulated. Not many countries, perhaps none, have ever demonstrated such a capacity for self-examination and improvement. People round the world, including Chinese, see the peaceful way the American people go about actualizing change, the gracious way in which John McCain conceded defeat and that is example enough. This is the time to salute and congratulate America, not to beat up on China, a country with a very different history, and which in its own way is also trying to improve things for its own people.

November 5, 2008 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

Let’s stick to the US in this thread, okay?

November 5, 2008 @ 6:57 pm | Comment

@WTF

“Their faces registered “does not compute, please input more data.” Never mind.

Wasn’t it a bit arrogant of you to assume that some 16 years in Xiamen who just want to learn a few words of English of you should really get excited over your sense of redemption for all the suffering your forefathers had inflicted on our black African bros ?

” besides, African slaves reached China long before the Americas via Arab traders during the Tang and Song dynasties,…Any denials?”

No, no denials. First time I heard about it. I guess those Tang and Song guys didn’t beat the crap out of the poor buggers otherwise the issue would have been hammered to death as prove that Chinese are races.

“Obama’s victory was possible because past prejudices have been eroded to the extent that, for the vast majority, race was not a factor in choosing the next president.”

Yeah, whatever. My democrat dog would have won the election.

November 5, 2008 @ 7:13 pm | Comment

@Stuart

“Their faces registered “does not compute, please input more data.” Never mind.

Wasn’t it a bit arrogant of you to assume that some 16 years in Xiamen who just want to learn a few words of English of you should really get excited over your sense of redemption for all the suffering your forefathers had inflicted on our black African bros ?

” besides, African slaves reached China long before the Americas via Arab traders during the Tang and Song dynasties,…Any denials?”

No, no denials. First time I heard about it. I guess those Tang and Song guys didn’t beat the crap out of the poor buggers otherwise the issue would have been hammered to death as prove that Chinese are races.

“Obama’s victory was possible because past prejudices have been eroded to the extent that, for the vast majority, race was not a factor in choosing the next president.”

Yeah, whatever. My democrat dog would have won the election.

November 5, 2008 @ 7:13 pm | Comment

The really amazing thing about the election of Obama is not simply that he is a black man. If Colin Powell had run for President eight years ago, he would have done well. The amazing thing is that this is a black man who is no Clarence Thomas, no ‘Uncle Tom’ who has gone out to pander to certain segments of the white electorate by deriding black people. Obama is a liberal, leftist black who is obviously popular among blacks – but has also managed to convince white Americans that he is for all Americans regardless of race. That he is not only black, but a liberal black, a black with a very non-Anglo saxon name can become president is simply staggering in its unlikelihood.

As for John McCain, his not bringing up Reverend Wright has demonstrated that he is a decent and honorable man. Reverend Wright’s outbursts were understandable in the context of the history of discrimination that black people have suffered-even if wrongheaded and offensive to many. But at the same time John McCain would have been well-justified in using this issue to attack Obama – and it could well have swung things in his way. That he did not do so attests not only to his inherent decency but to his intelligence in understanding that Obama associating with Wright is quite different from say a white candidate associating with David Duke – despite their superficial parallels. Interestingly McCain mentioned something in his concession speech that from now on “no Americans should feel anymore that they should not cherish their citizenship” (words to that effect – can’t remember the exact words). I think that this showed again understanding of the reasons for anti-Americanism among some segments of the black community, but at the same time saying the time for this has now come to an end.

Obama’s presidency will also hopefully encourage blacks and other minorities to throw off the destructive mentally enslaving victim mentality which is often used an excuse for any failure, collective or personal – a convenient crutch which almost becomes a part of one’s own identity. That will do more to encourage racial reconciliation than almost anything else.

November 5, 2008 @ 7:24 pm | Comment

“Obama’s victory was possible because past prejudices have been eroded to the extent that, for the vast majority, race was not a factor in choosing the next president.”

On second thought you could be right .

I think this is the only postive legacy the dimwit Bush left behind and for that, he did his country proud and all his other sins redempted.

November 5, 2008 @ 7:27 pm | Comment

@ WTF

““Obama’s victory was possible because past prejudices have been eroded to the extent that, for the vast majority, race was not a factor in choosing the next president.”

On second thought you could be right .

I think this is the only postive legacy the dimwit Bush left behind and for that, he did his country proud and all his other sins redempted.”

I think that is a very interesting point you just brought up there. In a hundred years time, I could certainly see some historians claim that the single biggest factor in a black man getting elected was the staggering incompetence of the Bush administration. Americans wanted change, and they wanted it in bucketloads, thanks to this nincompoop. You could say GWB was the Darth Vadar of American politics. Through his incessant abuse of power and crazy use of military force he created the conditions for this election – for sure. That would make a great line for Bush’s tombstone:

“Here lies George Walker Bush – the founding father of racial equality in American politics.”

November 5, 2008 @ 8:17 pm | Comment

In a hundred years time, I could certainly see some historians claim that the single biggest factor in a black man getting elected was the staggering incompetence of the Bush administration.

Bush promoted Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice. In that sense he did open doors. After two black Secretaries of State, a black president is not such a big leap.
And Bush has kept the US free of terror attacks since Sep 11. It was hardly his fault that Sep 11 occurred on his watch.

November 5, 2008 @ 8:24 pm | Comment

I would suggest that it is still a pretty big leap, since although those two were very highly ranked officials they were not elected by a mostly white population to their positions….but whatever. It’s a historic day.

November 5, 2008 @ 8:29 pm | Comment

Bush was actually OK towards China. During the Tibet troubles earlier this year he largely kept his mouth shut, apart from a few pro-forma comments. He attended the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games – something that Obama was against. His father also had positive attitudes towards China.
I suspect that Obama will end up to be a bit of a self-righteous prig. After all one of his greatest benefactors is the execrable Nancy Pelosi – anti-China shit stirrer, hypocrite and Dalai Lama groupie. China will need to handle Obama carefully and be aware that someone who is in fact your enemy but does not resemble the traditional conception of your enemy can in fact be far more dangerous than an open and honest adversary. That is the danger of an Obama presidency – people being distracted from US hegemonic ambition by the novelty of a black man at the helm.

November 5, 2008 @ 8:45 pm | Comment

I would suggest that it is still a pretty big leap, since although those two were very highly ranked officials they were not elected by a mostly white population to their positions

the point is that people got use to seeing African Americans in high positions of great responsibility – sort of got ‘softened up’ in a sense. In any case I don’t think that Obama simply being black is the amazing thing – Colin Powell would have been a popular president among conservatives. The surprising thing is Obama is a left-wing black – a black who is accepted not only by whites but by blacks all along.

November 5, 2008 @ 8:53 pm | Comment

So I take it this blog is NOT shutting down? Heh.

Today was a good day.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:04 pm | Comment

I don’t think Obama is anti-China at all. He seem to be encouraging a more balanced trade model and also pushing for China to develop it’s internal consumption.

As China make the transition from labor based industries to high tech industries and the consumers get buying power, this will lead the US to potentially export more high ends products to China. Creating US jobs, etc.

Isn’t it what is currently shaping as we speak ?

And like it or not, democracy (cough) will prevail, worldwide, one day.

Meanwhile, I’ve found an interesting article today about the UN praising the China city development model (coincidence?). Sadly it’s not available in English, so I won’t send the link. it should be circulating in English shortly.

One world, one dream, one money, one government! ;)

November 5, 2008 @ 9:05 pm | Comment

Obama is also his own man, whereas Powell found his way to the position through the patronage of Bush – and when push came to shove, he never bit the hand that fed him.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:05 pm | Comment

Personally i don’t hold great hopes for an obama presidency as, firstly, he is not the messiah and secondly, he is coming into office with a ridiculous number of problems to solve. however he cannot be any worse than bush

mccain gave a dignified and gracious concession speech and i think it is a great shame that he did not run a campaign to match it. i cannot help feeling that he would have been better off sticking to his guns and going with lieberman rather than the religious whacko. he could have then stuck to the experience line of argument and pushed the republican party in the direction it needs to go, sooner or later. at least then he could have gone down to a more honourable defeat, voicing his real thinking (i think much of his confusion on the campaign trail is his idiotic decision to appeal to the base which he doesn’t agree with) rather than being remembered as the man who abandoned all principles in pursuit of power. history may not be kind, if it remembers him at all.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:10 pm | Comment

i cannot help feeling that he would have been better off sticking to his guns and going with lieberman

Si, that’s true, but I think he was told Lieberman would cause a rebellion in the party. So just as it would have helped him get more independent votes it might have trashed his base. Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

A safer pair of hands might have helped his chances but what with the economic trouble I’m not sure it would have changed the result, just made it a bit closer. What was it, 80-90%+ of Americans thought the country was going the wrong way? Any Republican would have found it tough to fight that. There was that other comment – McCain had to fight two enemies – Obama and Bush.

The Republican party has its priorities wrong. It’s not that evangelicals don’t count, but that the concerns of the older ones are being eclipsed by those of the younger generation. Do religious youngsters care about abortion? Not that much. I think they’re more into social welfare and the environment these days, though that could be an observation of their British counterparts. It’s tempting to just listen to the base, but if you’re left with older voters you can snooker yourself in the future when they start to die and you don’t have a younger generation to replace them.

They need to remake themselves like the Conservative Party in the UK has. These days they’re all in favour of liberty (opposed to ID cards, 42 day detention, etc), whereas it’s the once “left-wing” Labour Party that is now more authoritarian. Not to suggest that the Democrats would go that way, but it’s a useful comparison.

November 5, 2008 @ 9:27 pm | Comment

I am curious about one thing, let’s make a quick poll: What do you think about Ron Paul ? He’s a thing of the past now for sure, I know.

But still, I’d like to know how he’s perceived in the mind of the readers here since he has not been the subject of many talks.

Comments welcomed…

November 5, 2008 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

Personally i don’t hold great hopes for an obama presidency as, firstly, he is not the messiah and secondly, he is coming into office with a ridiculous number of problems to solve.

A president has to be messiah for you to have hope? :)

I know what you mean, but I think that it’s precisely because he faces so many challenges that we should be generous in how we view things. There’s a difference between trying your best and failing to deal with a difficult situation and just messing something up. If he can work out the most important things and do the former rather than the latter for the other problems, it would be fair to view it as at least a good term of office if not a very good term.

You can’t expect Superman if he’s still on Krypton.

however he cannot be any worse than bush

Yes, that’s always heartening. I’ll never forget the earliest parody I heard of him:

“My fellow amoebians….”

November 5, 2008 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

This is richard, burnt out after a long day. Thanks for all the comments. What we saw today was a tectonic shift, an entire new paradigm (pardon the cliché) of what America is, what it stands for and all that is possible when you give people freedom and democracy. I have a lot more to say, and will try to put up a post tomorrow summarizing all that I believe this election means. Simply put, the notion that America is a wonderful place, unlike any other on the planet in terms of hope and opportunity, has been restored.

I saw the great Chris Patten speak last weekend at the Foreign Correspondents Club of China, and he confessed that despite his reputation as a conservative, he was a proud “Obamamaniac” (he actually used that term). He explained it very simply: “Obama has made American politics respectable again.”

I want that to seep in. Something happened under Bush that we hadn’t seen before, something terrible and ugly. It wasn’t new or unique to Bush; indeed, it was Richard Nixon who first sowed the seeds, but it was under Bush that it blossomed and fully reared its head. And that is the tactic of not just pointing out where you and your enemies disagree, but to question the essence of their character, and to tie them to the most anti-American of forces. Nixon’s smearing of “the pink lady” Helen Gahagan Douglas was the first ominous sign of a whole new type of smear: claiming that your opponent is a Communist; in recent months, it was a terrorist-sympathizer, a sleeper-cell Muslim, a socialist-communist-Marxist. This evil technique lay dormant for some time after Watergate, but it never was abandoned. It relied on a fantasy, a big lie, but it worked wonders. Ronald Reagan’s stories of “welfare queens” (who did not exist) who were living high off the hog thanks to welfare, was an offshoot of this tactic of creating imaginary enemies and tying them to your opponent. Willie Horton was another example, playing on unspoken racist fears and creating an association of the opponent with madman black rapists and murderers.

It was only under Bush and Karl Rove and, inexplicably, the once-honorable McCain that this tactic reached its zenith. Just as with Willie Horton, the GOP spin-monsters created a psychological association between Obama and Muslim terrorists, marxists, vote fraudsters and even white terrorists or yesteryear. Just as with “the pink lady,” this was all nonsense, a total lie, and the Rove machine knew it. No matter; it worked wonders before with the Swift Boat Veterans and, irony of ironies, with the smearing of McCain himself in 2000.

That was a long way of describing why Patten’s words were so stirring. America has finally rejected big-lie smears. The most wonderful thing about this entire election has been that Obama turned the tables on the liars and rumor mongers, not by fighting fire with fire but by simply taking the high road. He never shouted or lost his temper, he never let the inane stories faze him. Instead he stuck to the issues and showed for the first time in years that a politician can speak to the public without invoking bogeymen or scare tactics, that he could communicate with the people at their level, about the real things that matter to them, not straw-man issues and murky allegations. He made politics respectable again. He changed the face of American politics and showed the world we are not a nation of self-deluded automatons who can be swayed to insanity by the snake-oil salesmen. And that leaves American politics in a very different place than it was just a few months ago. We can already feel it – America longs to be a kinder, gentler nation once again, to be respected by the world as a leader and a role model, not as a bully and a torturer. I am not in America now, of course, but I urge you to see this post to get a feeling for just how palpable America’s joy and relief are. A great burden, an agony, has been lifted. We can breathe again, we can see light and we can have hope. As most of you know, Obama wasn’t my first choice, but I have seen what he can do and I am impressed. A shame that he now has to face the staggering mess Bush leaves in his wake, but I think most of us realize he can’t work miracles. He is not a messiah and no one except the right ever said, sneeringly, that he was. Let’s savor the victory for now, and then brace ourselves for a lot of hard, painful work that will need to be done to complete America’s transformation into a real country again, a country in which we can disagree with others without calling them terrorists or traitors, and in which we face the fact that we are all in this together. “God bless America.”

November 5, 2008 @ 11:18 pm | Comment

Great post Richard…..but you ruined it slightly for me at the end with that “god bless america” That is really grating on international ears.

Don’t mean to knock the rest of it though. Captures the moment nicely.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:34 pm | Comment

You know, I had doubts about the last line, and was aware of the sentimentality and of how annoyed it always made e when I heard it, but it just sort of appeared on the screen. I edited it slightly just seconds ago.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:38 pm | Comment

Beautifully said Richard, I agree with you a 100%.

“We can already feel it – America longs to be a kinder, gentler nation once again.”

Ever heard about the compliment sandwich ? The more I look into the US politic system and its impact on the world and the more I think it’s a perpetual mimic of this concept, only applied on a larger scheme.

The painful political moments and icons happens when America needs to show its teeth, the graceful moments appear when America is all understanding and sweet and need to compliment/spread hope.

Two main parties, one goal. The division is in the mass and the sleepers, but not in the higher spheres. They are well aware of this.

That was my cynical comment, but there is one spot inside of me that really wants to believe in what Obama could mean on the surface for the whole world. I am dreaming of peace and harmony as well, and I really hope that I am wrong in most of my visions and comments. I hope for the bright side of things.

Peace to this earth and all of us. We deserve it.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:40 pm | Comment

Thanks “Oab.” I just put that whole long sermon up as a separate post, and hope it doesn’t confuse things much.

November 5, 2008 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

Wow!! Way to underline the point, Ferin. As I said, China has a long way to go. Opening up policy? One world, one dream?

No it doesn’t. East Asia comprises only a tiny sliver of the world’s land, allowing lots of outsiders in would be beyond stupid. There already are millions and millions of Russians settled in parts of Asia they simply don’t belong. If they ever start swarming in, the Chinese will no longer have a homeland.

The measure of China’s progress will be when they no longer take offense at that thought.

Again, this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. Why would China give up its only seat of power to some undeserving, opportunistic foreigner? Don’t you have enough land, stolen resources and power?

It’s not going to happen. If it did, I would kill him personally.

November 6, 2008 @ 3:35 am | Comment

Anyway despite the fact that I’m spiteful and cynical I can’t help but feel happy for those 100+ year old black Americans that get to see how things have ended up today.

November 6, 2008 @ 3:37 am | Comment

Richard – you will have to snap out of it sooner or later. The only real achievement to Obama’s name so far is the ability to be an effective marketer for himself. His speeches ring hollow because he has never done or achieved anything of note, made any great sacrifices -apart from hopping on the racial grievances bandwagon.

I get the feeling that Americans are taking part in some feel good movie, where after a white man (Bush) having brought disaster and turmoil to his nation and the world, is deposed by a saintly black sage who will soon fix everthing and make everything good and everyone lives happily ever after.

Fact is real life is simply not like that. In modern stable societies you don’t want sages, orators, dreamers or ideologues to lead – you need hard working, intelligent and selfless leaders who can deal with detail and the nitty gritty of economic, social and foreign policy. John McCain would have been such a leader – and in fact has been such a leader his entire life. That America at this time of such great uncertainty chooses to elect on ideologue with a self-declared mission to implement sweeping ‘change’ is quite frightening.

China had its full of this type of thing only 40 years ago. Now thankfully it is rule of technocrats and engineers – and look how far China has progressed since they put ‘expert’ over ‘red’ instead of the other way round.

Obama’s young fan base with their hypnotised star-gazing eyes are too stupid to realize that it has been Bush who has been keeping them safe these past seven years, that McCain made unimaginable sacrifices for his country that should have made him an absolute certainty for president. Americans have put the need to feel virtuous (about their non-racism), the desire for celebrity over the real needs of the nation and the world.

November 6, 2008 @ 4:45 am | Comment

He changed the face of American politics and showed the world we are not a nation of self-deluded automatons who can be swayed to insanity by the snake-oil salesmen

Look at the faces of those young people out celebrating last night – and then wind back the clock 40 years ago in Tiananmen square – thats what immediately sprang to my mind. Those young people were the very definition of “self-deluded automatons.”

November 6, 2008 @ 4:53 am | Comment

O BUMMER…A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITEHOUSE!
The Republicans put up an old man with no chance of winning.
And Obama has no chance of fixing the mess Americas in.
The Republicans are nobodys fools…..

November 6, 2008 @ 6:30 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

I think Obama is exactly the kind of “hard working, intelligent and selfless leaders who can deal with detail and the nitty gritty of economic, social and foreign policy” who you described. I was not a big fan of Obama when he started his campain. But seeing how he ran his campain (systematic, disciplined, non-ideological way), I think he would make a great president. I think McCain lost because his campain was erratic and undisciplined campain.

November 6, 2008 @ 7:41 am | Comment

ferin,

No it doesn’t. East Asia comprises only a tiny sliver of the world’s land, allowing lots of outsiders in would be beyond stupid. There already are millions and millions of Russians settled in parts of Asia they simply don’t belong. If they ever start swarming in, the Chinese will no longer have a homeland.

I guess you would wholeheartedly support the Russians throwing out all the Chinese immigrants streaming into Siberia and settling there. Also, I am glad you support the Tibetans throwing out the foreigners from Beijing who come to settle and rule Tibet. Let Tibet be ruled by Tibetans and have a homeland for themselves.

November 6, 2008 @ 7:46 am | Comment

I guess you would wholeheartedly support the Russians throwing out all the Chinese immigrants streaming into Siberia and settling there.

MT: this was land that was part of China and populated by East Asians up until the unequal treaties forced on China by Russia in the 19th Century.

As for splitting China from Tibet and giving 1/4 of China’s territory to just 2million of China’s 1.3billion – which is what the Dalai wants – if that is not an extreme form of ethnic cleansing I don’t know wtf is. In fact it would be a further dispossession of the yellow race in favour of a few Western annointed acceptable yellows like that fraud the Dalai Lama. End result would be self absorbed eggheads like Richard Gere allowed in Tibet, but not a Chinese worker wanting to improve his lot in his own motherland.

China resisting splittism is not for just keeping China togetther – that is of secondary importance – what is of paramount importance is preventing upon the encroachment of the natural living space of the yellow race, much of which it has been stripped these past two centuries.

November 6, 2008 @ 8:00 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

Before 1950 there were very few Han Chinese in Tibet, and Tibet belonged to Tibetans. What right do the Hans have to that land? Tibet didn’t belong to Han Chinese. The occupation of Tibet is causing the change of ethnic makeup of Tibet. I don’t understand where ethnic cleansing comes in there.

Btw, Siberia was mostly empty before the Russians came there.

Your problem is that you think that the “yellow race” owns land which are the homelands of other people.

November 6, 2008 @ 8:22 am | Comment

America is a nation based on ideas, not ethnicity or race. That is why I think in the long run America would do well in spite of the current problems. You cannot hope to move to China or Japan and become Chinese or Japanese. But you can immigrate of America and become American. That is the reason why I think America will continue to attract the smartest people from around the world to go and settle there, and will win the global war for talent for the foreseeable future.

After a country achieves a certain level of development (ie, after you have gone through the easy stage of development involving giving everybody houses, TVs, cars etc.) you need a highly innovative workforce to develop further. It would be harder for a country founded on race to compete.

November 6, 2008 @ 8:36 am | Comment

MT: just total up the land controlled by whites in the world and the land controlled by yellows. There were few Han in the area that the Dalai calls Tibet? I don’t think so. Handing back 1/4 of China’s landmass to a 2 million Tibetans would be akin to ceding all of the Eastern and South eastern United states to Cherokee descended Americans – and telling all non Cherokee Americans to pack their bags- that would be unreasonable in itself but there are a hell of a lot more Cherokee descended Americans than there are Tibetans.

You say Siberia was mostly empty before the Russians arrived – well so was the region the Dalai Lama claims as Tibet.

But I suppose this is getting a bit off the topic here.

November 6, 2008 @ 9:40 am | Comment

Jesus Mongol Warrior your obsession with race would have made a good Nazi if you had been born at different times.

November 6, 2008 @ 9:45 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

You are the one obsessed with diving up land based on race. I don’t believe in having nations based on race.

What is your argument? Races with higher population density have to right occupy homelands of other people. By your logic, China should give some of its land to Japan (which has a much higher population density). Oh wait. Japan tried that in the early 20th century and I don’t think many Chinese liked it.

November 6, 2008 @ 9:56 am | Comment

What is your argument? Races with higher population density have to right occupy homelands of other people.

MT: I never said that. You implied it here:

Btw, Siberia was mostly empty before the Russians came there.

You implication being that it is no big deal that Russia occupied the far East given its original low population density.

I said the same principle could be applied to the Tibetan situation.

Fact is Tibet is part of China, recognized as such by virtually all nations round the world, was recognized as part of China very explicitly in the early 1940s by the US, was claimed not only by the communists but also by Jiang Jieshis Nationalists and even that dog Dalai Lama admits to as such.

So end of story.

MT – find some other cause to occupy your spare time.

November 6, 2008 @ 11:11 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You are okay with Han people moving into Tibet and changing the racial makeup, while opposed to any immigration of foreigners into China.

My position is simple. I think all countries should be multiracial.

If Tibetans had a reasonable chance to choose their own leaders or if a Tibetan had a chance to become ruler in Beijing, then it would be fine. China would then be a multi-ethnic country. Since that remains impossible, what is happening in Tibet is a Han occupation of Tibet, and using that occupation to change the ethnic makeup of Tibet. That is a violation of the Geneva conventions.

Btw, name calling doesn’t make you a strong debater or help change minds.

November 6, 2008 @ 12:01 pm | Comment

“My position is simple. I think all countries should be multiracial.”

I Agree, and this will happen in the future anyways, waste of time to debate about this.

November 6, 2008 @ 12:17 pm | Comment

MT: where did I say that I was opposed to immigration of foreigners into China?

November 6, 2008 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

This thread started from statements made by ferin like:
The CCP is making a huge mistake giving citizenship to non-East Asians.

I assumed you agreed with that sentiment, since you replied to my post arguing against ferin. If you don’t agree with it, I apologize for assuming you did.

November 6, 2008 @ 12:56 pm | Comment

MT: thanks. apology accepted.

by the way here is something interesting:

Tibet is part of China

Lord Patten welcomed the 29th October statement by British Foreign Secretary David Miliband, changing British government policy on Tibet.

He said it had been little known technicality and “a quaint eccentricity” that Britain had previously recognized Chinese suzerainty, but not sovereignty, over Tibet. The Foreign Secretary’s statement had made it clear that Britain recognizes that Tibet is part of China. “I commend Mr Miliband for bringing Britain into line with the rest of humanity,” said Patten, noting that not even the Dalai Lama had shared Britain’s previous position.

November 6, 2008 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

Oab,

There is nothing wrong with dreaming big. But the EU shows how hard it is to stitch together a multi-ethnic entity.

Btw, nation states based on ethnicity and race is a relatively new phenomenon, starting in the early 20th century.

November 6, 2008 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

Mongol warrior,

In my eyes history is not the crucial factor in Tibet. If it were, then Britain could claim that India belongs to the British Empire. China has to decide whether Tibetans are full citizens of China. If they are not, then China is occupying Tibet. The current situation is similar to what Israel is doing in Palestine (no self govt for Palestinians, and changing the ethnic makeup during an occupation).

November 6, 2008 @ 1:14 pm | Comment

MT: multiracialism, multiculturalism should not be goals in themselves. Diversity should not be a goal. Treating people fairly and in a non-discriminatory way is enough.

America by the way it was founded, its history is rightly a nation of common ideals.In a similar way Canada, Australia, New Zealand were established on lands that were originally occupied by indigenous peoples and where current populations are mainly descended from successive waves of European and more recently coloured immigration. So these places naturally adhere to the principle of Jus Soli – you were born there so you are of there.This principle is correct, morally and practically for these of countries.

However some ancient European nations and Asian nations do have the right to maintain a certain base level traditional populations which define the nature of the countries to which they give their names. That is why people of German descent have certain rights to German citizenship over non-German descended people. Many European countries and Asian countries dispense citizenship based partly on bloodlines. That is why anyone with a single British grandparent can become British. This is like inheritance. But nothing to do with race or racism.
Poland filled with Chinese people (or Italians) would cease to be Poland. Japan filled with Chinese people or Nigerians would cease to be Japan in the way we know it.

So just like your concerns for the Tibetan people come from your perceptions of their being ethnically displaced by Han (actually an absurd point), but continuing on along the trajectory of your argument it could be argued that Chinese people, Yellow people have every right to their little piece of real estate where they are now without having to share it with white people who have already eaten up so much of their territory and resources both in the not too distant past and now.

But America is an entirely different situation.

November 6, 2008 @ 1:24 pm | Comment

China has to decide whether Tibetans are full citizens of China.

Tibetans are full citizens of China. They get a whole heap of affirmative action, govt support for cultural and language preservation. China desires all within her borders to accept that they are full citizens of China. Problem is some Western shit stirrers foment problems and try to destabilize things. That is the problem.

November 6, 2008 @ 1:31 pm | Comment

Mongol warrior,

There are two options:

A. You believe China is an ethnic/race based nation state. In this case China needs to get out of Tibet and leave the Tibetan homeland to the Tibetans (ie, end the occupation). The Tibetans (and the Han Chinese themselves) consider Han and Tibetan people to be from differnet ethnicities.

B. You believe China is a multiethnic state. In this case there shouldn’t be anything special in China for “yellow people”. All ethnicities should be treated the same. This include having policies whereby a Tibetan has an equal chance to become president of China as a Han. Immigration should not be based on ethnicity. This doesn’t preclude immigration policies which allow somebody whose a grandparent was a Chinese citizen to become a citizen. The crucial thing is that it shouldn’t be race based.

What is illogical is choosing one or the other depending on your convenience.

November 6, 2008 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

Mongol warrior,

Tibetans are full citizens of China

Right. And Santa Claus is real.

Why hasn’t there ever been a non-Han CP secretary in Tibet?

November 6, 2008 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

Mongol warrior,

Problem is some Western shit stirrers foment problems and try to destabilize things.

How many “Western shit stirrers” were involved in the recent riots in Tibet?

November 6, 2008 @ 1:48 pm | Comment

MT: It is obvious. A and B are not mutually exclusive. China is a multi-ethnic state of ethnicities which already reside there and have done so for centuries. This includes Han, Tibetans, Mongolians, Uighurs etc. Maybe in future when it is rich and powerful it will be a magnet for immigrants from around the world in the way the West is now. But at the moment it is a moot point – because hardly anyone wants to go there at the moment.

The crucial thing is that it shouldn’t be race based. Correct. Ancestry based is different from race based. Germany say, letting in German descended people is different from Germany saying whites only. Two entirely different things. China likewise does not have a race based policy.

Tibetan has an equal chance to become president of China as a Han
It is unlikely that we will see a Tibetan become president of China in our lifetimes. Tibetans are about 4million? out of 1.3 billion. So based on numbers alone chances of a Tibetan president are very small. However the chance of any individual Tibetan becoming president is unlikely to be less than that of any individual Han – given similar backgrounds and language skills. Problem is that the Chinese government in being over-earnest in preserving the Tibetan langauage and providing a dual track schooling system has actually disadvantaged many Tibetans by rendering them insufficiently fluent in Chinese. Tibetans are of course not dispersed throughout China as blacks are in the US, but concentrated in a single region – so they are disadvantaged, not by race, but by living in a remote, relatively backward region in the same way that Appalachian hillbillies are. The situation is the same for most of China’s other minorities. How many Appalachian hillbillies have become president MT?

In fact the more the Chinese government has propped up local indigenous languages, schools, bilingualism and local traditions the less likely you will see minorities in the upper echelons of the Chinese government. Barack Obama would never have got to where he was had he not been fully acculturated into the American mainstream and if he could only speak halting English.

November 6, 2008 @ 2:21 pm | Comment

How many “Western shit stirrers” were involved in the recent riots in Tibet?

The Dalai Lama would never have had the clout that he now apparently does have had not the CIA sponsored his insurrection in 1959 and supported him for well over twenty years. And he is feted by Hollywood and mainly Westerners today. Because they are natural shit-stirrers. If the West got their noses out of Tibet, problems there would cease.

How come I don’t see too many Cubans, Nigerians, Russians, Romanians and Thais getting all steamed up over Tibet? But many British, Americans and Canadians – so it is obviously Western shit-stirring that sustains the problem there today.

November 6, 2008 @ 2:27 pm | Comment

Mongol warrior,

You said:
what is of paramount importance is preventing upon the encroachment of the natural living space of the yellow race, much of which it has been stripped these past two centuries.

How does the above square with your view of China as race neutral? You saying China is for the yellow race is as obnoxious as Germans says Germany is for whites.

If you think Tibetans are treated fairly by the Chinese state, you should be joking. You haven’t answered my question on why the CP secretary (who controls all the security apparatus in Tibet) is always a Han.

In my opinion, the only way to have a non-discriminatory multi-ethnic country is to have democracy and private property rights. In Tibet (as else where in China), all land is owned by the state, which is controlled by Han. In effect the Tibetans don’t even own the land the live in. (A similar problem exists in Israel, where all the land is owned either by the state or Jewish organizations. Very little is privately owned.)

November 6, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment

Mongol Warrior,

The Dalai Lama would never have had the clout that he now apparently does have had not the CIA sponsored his insurrection in 1959 and supported him for well over twenty years

If the West had armed the Tibetans properly there would have been an independent Tibet. (Russia did it well and we have and independent Mongolia)

If the West got their noses out of Tibet, problems there would cease.

In other words, the West should look away so that the CCP can murder or jail the dissidents, take the land and settle Han people, and everybody would be happy!

November 6, 2008 @ 2:43 pm | Comment

All things considered, an Obama win is preferable over a McCain win (mainly because of the Palin problem). However that does not mean that Obama is not an arrogant prat – or are most Americans similarly so self-absorbed that they are oblivious to it in other people? I can provide links to a bucketful of pics which shows him arrogantly strutting around. But just read his victory speech – enough to make one vomit. He considers himself the embodiment of ‘the change we seek’ – haha – as if he is the God’s newest revelation. And just the title of his book “the Audacity of Hope” – what the hell does that mean? Does that not make you want to cringe Richard? Or is it simply a cultural thing where the cringe threshold of Americans is that much higher than that of most other people, Westerners included?

Does not the fact that he wrote a book (something about ‘dreams of fathers?’ -haha) about himself during the time he was a nobody strike no one here as quite weird? Or does every American believe really he is an actor in some Hollywood movie where he believes his own life has significance to the world in a measure far far greater than actual reality- it seems so.

November 6, 2008 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

last comment was not meant to be posted here but belongs to the other thread

November 6, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

As part of “affirmative action” Tibetans also get beaten, tortured with cattle prods, and tossed into prisons or buried in holes for carry a picture of a monk.

They also get to watch government officials with connections and Han business men make money from their natural resources and their culture while they are unemployed.

November 7, 2008 @ 1:56 am | Comment

Gee, looks like we kind of veered off topic here. Thread closed. Last word: Obama’s victory is a wonderful thing because it was time to clean the stables. It is the end of a very bad era. Will Obama be a good president? No one can ever answer that question about any new president, though he surely can’t be worse than what we’ve got, and based on what I’ve seen in the debates and read by those who’ve worked with him and covered him in the media and who know him personally, his approach to complex issues is strikingly different to that of Bush, or of McCain and Palin. There is nothing wrong with feeing some hope and optimism, and attempts by racists like Mongol Warrior to smear Obama in advance won’t get anywhere. Palin and the McCain team have already smeared him as much as is humanly possible. Unlike with Palin, where the complaints were actually based on what she said and did, the ones against Obama were amorphous and hopelessly circumstantial, but most often downright false, fabrications plucked from the collective Republican rectum. Let’s hope Obama brings some competence to the White House at a time when America faces the greatest test of any of our lifetimes.

November 7, 2008 @ 9:33 am | Comment

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