Can’t wait to see where this thread goes…

July 18, 2008 @ 5:34 pm | Comment

I have a hunch…

July 18, 2008 @ 5:35 pm | Comment

50 center “playbook” response:

1. Reiterate that it is a rumor and that we should all be careful about making comments we might later regret.

2. Point out that America is a racist country.

3. Point out that the people under question were usually drug dealers and the local authorities therefore have the right to remove them to promote harmonious society during the Olympic games.

4. Point out that America is a racist country.

5. Repeat above ad nauseum.

Interesting related post about a notorious bar in Beijing: http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/beijing/archive/2008/07/14/behind-the-red-door-how-the-police-got-the-girls.aspx
Get it via ESWN if the link got cut off.

July 18, 2008 @ 5:51 pm | Comment

I, for one, don’t believe a word of it. Zhou Enlai said it best in a speech he gave in 1955 when he said that racism is “uniquely absent” in China. Case closed.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:06 pm | Comment

@andy r

excellent response. here, for the record, is my 50 cents on what the 50 centers should do.

1. Say they hope it is a rumour and that they are disgusted and appalled by the report.
2. Say they will be raising it with officials in Beijing and ask for a swift rebuttal and a commitment anti-racist action.
3. Say there have been problems in the past with racism in China and give examples of how the CCP is trying to deal with it (could be difficult, but i am sure they could find something)
4. Reiteriate their opposition

Oh, and

5. Point out that America is a racist country and Anglos are racist people. Sorry, isn’t that a typo? Shouldn’t it Amerikkka and Anglows?

@hong

be careful. irony doesn’t always come across on a blog. for a moment there i thought you might be serious ;P

July 18, 2008 @ 6:19 pm | Comment

if history is any guide, this is not out of the realm of possibility. it was only a matter of months ago that the police and their camoflauge goon squad showed up in sanlitun and beat and detained only black patrons, including the son of an ambassador. this was called an “anti-drug operation.” nice. one world, one dream!!

July 18, 2008 @ 6:59 pm | Comment

reuters article on the guardian is along similiar lines and interesting.

http://tinyurl.com/6lz2t6

are they trying to turn beijing into singapore?

July 18, 2008 @ 7:59 pm | Comment

[...] (HT to the Peking Duck) [...]

July 18, 2008 @ 9:00 pm | Pingback

YJ checked out the rumor with some people “in the know,” looks like the SCMP pulled this at random off of some BBS. Rumor: BUSTED.

July 18, 2008 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

From the article Si references above:

A Hong Kong newspaper on Friday quoted unnamed sources as saying that police were demanding bar owners sign “secret” pledges not to serve black people or Mongolian prostitutes.

Beijing police earlier this year carried out a drugs sweep in a popular bar district in Sanlitun, which saw black people bundled indiscriminately into police vans, witnesses said.

I do want to think this is a grotesque joke or misunderstanding or….something other than the truth. Of course, hearsay isn’t authoritative, but the SCMP is not usually a rumor mongerer.

If it’s true, the geniuses over at Party Headquarters who can make it rain and perform all sorts of other miracles had better fix it fast. If it’s documented and proven true it would be a death blow to the one world one dream mantra.

For a while I was willing to cut the party a lot of slack because I saw some signs of positive change, and because the Chinese people seem to appreciate them and, after all, it is their country. But in the past couple of months I’ve felt a major swing back in the other direction as I watch them fuck up one thing after another. Reading Philip Pan’s Out of Mao’s Shadow isn’t helping endear them to me.

But again, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt on this. I mean, they can’t be that stupid. Can they?

July 18, 2008 @ 9:49 pm | Comment

Heh - I just noticed that the Amazon link I gave for Pan’s book is now blocked. I hope the keywords don’t freeze up this thread. Another reason to love the party.

July 18, 2008 @ 9:51 pm | Comment

Danwei made a few phone calls to verify the story and came up blank. My gut feeling is that the story is false. I can’t see any reason why the PSB would feel the need to have Mongolians and black foreigners banned from bars. Across the Yellow Sea in South Korea, real and imagined crimes by foreign English teachers, Nigerians, and GIs are regularly sensationalized in the Korean media, to the point where citizens in one city have formed a vigilante group to follow around foreigners and make sure they aren’t teaching without a proper visa, taking drugs, or molesting Korean students. Since foreign crime isn’t a staple of the Chinese press and hence, no public perception that ordinary foreigners are a threat to public safety, the PSB has no reason to target blacks and Mongolians. Now if this were a story about foreign reporters being banned from Sanlitun bars, that I might believe.

July 18, 2008 @ 10:19 pm | Comment

There is no way this would be true. I would rather believe white guys are banned in the bar.

This is a stupid post, making no sense.

July 18, 2008 @ 10:54 pm | Comment

Ming, I agree that it is probably false, especially after seeing Sonagi’s comment. However, it has gotten play on Reuters and the SCMP and many other sites, so don’t blame this site. As the post says it may just be “hysteria run amok.” I sure hope it is.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:07 pm | Comment

Richard,

It would be nice if you could add a prominent note above/below the post stating that your initial “hope” is probably true.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

Jeremiah,

Oops, sorry I should have realized that it’s not Richard’s but your post.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:15 pm | Comment

Probably some dumb cop said something to a few bar owners and it’s slowly getting blown out of proportion. But when you have dumb cops doing dumb things you are going to get a lot of dumb rumors.

@Ming

“I would rather believe white guys are banned in the bar.”
Just had to get that in there, huh? From one racism to another just like that…When people like you take time out of their day to represent China with statements like that, it’s no wonder rumors like this get started. Keep up the GREAT work!

July 18, 2008 @ 11:18 pm | Comment

@Ming

1. “There is no way this would be true”? I beg to differ. You seem to be confusing the professional technocrats who make up much of China’s political elite with the motley crue of thugs and misguided idiots who actually run most of China’s day-to-day affairs. The reason that a story like this gains traction, Ming, is because people who understand China (i.e., anyone who has paid attention to China for longer than five or ten minutes) know that such nonsense is not only possible, it actually defines China’s politics at the town and county levels. The idea that a lower level bureaucrat in Beijing got a hard-on for blacks and Mongolians shouldn’t surprise anyone - especially this year.

2. Your comment about “white guys” says far more about you, Ming, than it says about white guys. Another Chinese guy with a bug up his ass for white guys - whaddaya know. Congratulations, Ming, you’re a cliche.

3. If you have nothing better to offer than “This is a stupid post, making no sense,” then get lost. Return when you’re more interesting.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:29 pm | Comment

Having said that such nonsense is possible, I’m still not convinced it’s true in this case. Needs more reporting.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:33 pm | Comment

[...] Miller of the South China Morning Post has generated somewhat doubtful outrages with an article alleging Beijing ordered bars not to serve blacks. For now, however, [...]

July 19, 2008 @ 12:04 am | Pingback

Reuters? Sigh…

When are you guys going to learn?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on …

Looks like the China-bashing crowd is running out of ammunitions. But hey, there are still 20 days to go.

July 19, 2008 @ 12:46 am | Comment

This is not a rumor. It is a policy and a guideline, directly from those you should, and must, listen to.

July 19, 2008 @ 1:01 am | Comment

@AC

“When are you guys going to learn?”

In answer to your question, we’ll learn once China has these things: freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and an independent judiciary. Meaningful democratic reform would be nice too. Until then, the CCP will have a credibility problem. As you suggest, these recent allegations in SCMP may be rumors, but that’s not really the point. Rather, the point is that such stories gain credence precisely because they ring true. Just as important, China’s media cannot mount an effective defense against such rumors because it lacks credibility - an unfortunate consequence of its association with a regime that frowns on the free exchange of ideas.

You may prefer, AC, to remain with your fifty-center friends over at ‘Slog for China,’ where defending China against the predations of the western media is always the special of the day.

July 19, 2008 @ 1:43 am | Comment

Further proof that being a reporter in China can be very dangerous

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7514322.stm

July 19, 2008 @ 1:47 am | Comment

@Hong (Fu Jieshi/Ma Bole/Hong/Cao Cao or whoever)

So this is where you hang out now, eh?

What kind of story have you been making up on this blog lately?

July 19, 2008 @ 2:49 am | Comment

@Andy R

your descriptions of 50center’s responses were quite enlightening, then here’s the response you came up with: Can’t wait to see where this thread goes…

so can I call you 30 center from now?

July 19, 2008 @ 3:50 am | Comment

@AC

WTF?!

Interesting, but not exactly substantive. Perhaps you should stop stiffing glue and get with the program.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:15 am | Comment

@Hong

WTF?! Exactly!

You still owe people an explanation here:

http://tinyurl.com/6gx6g6

You are not that good a spoofer.

July 19, 2008 @ 5:21 am | Comment

It is an open secret that various levels of discrimination do exist at Beijing’s nightspots

http://youtube.com/watch?v=plQpLPy1eao

1. Gabrielle Union’s publicist is calling for celebrities to boycott the Los Angeles nightclub Mood, after the venue’s owner allegedly canceled the actress’ birthday party when he discovered she was African American.

“Racism” in nightclub admissions is commonplace around the world. In Japan, they even have signs that say “Japanese Only”.

The only anamoly here is that white patrons were given special treatment, as white people are given undeserved special treatment all over the world.

July 19, 2008 @ 8:38 am | Comment

anomaly*

July 19, 2008 @ 8:40 am | Comment

Ferin,

My respect for your intellectual powers seems to reach new limits on a daily basis.

All true, and if this blog were called “LA Duck” maybe we’d write about that.

Just because discrimination occurs in LA or Lichtenstein does nothing to mitigate that problem here in our own backyard.

July 19, 2008 @ 8:42 am | Comment

Blacks are not a perpetual victim class in China and therefore will not get special treatment if they do something wrong. In Japan (and all over the world), Nigerians have crime rates double that of the Japanese (that isn’t including “offenses”; which are minor transgressions) but they cry racism whenever they are sent to jail or whatever. It’s an old trick that no one falls for outside of the West.

In China it is probably only a handful of Africans who are causing trouble (just as any other group does) and getting “beaten up” but as usual they will pull the race card. Too bad it doesn’t work in China.

Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).

July 19, 2008 @ 8:47 am | Comment

So in other words I really doubt the veracity of the rumor. It’s just Westerners trying to use black people’s “international victim status” to guilt trip Chinese people.

July 19, 2008 @ 8:49 am | Comment

Ferin you are truly a broken record. For that LA youtube clip, I like the way you googled and came up with an isolated incident from two years ago to make your definitive judgement. Always the same.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:55 am | Comment

So this is the scenario. One person said to another in a bar, in a joke, “Do you know that all Beijing bars are banning blacks?” Then a reporter was drinking a bar and heard it. Then immediately went home and wrote a report about it, and submitted to his boss. His boss asked “What evidence do you have about this?” The reporter said, “No evidence, I heard it in a bar”. The boss said, “Ok, that’s good enough! Publish right away!”

The, the “famous” and “reliable” South China Morning Post published this like a big story. Based on what? Any witness? Any source? Any channel? None, nothing. One sentence in a bar is the only “source”. So what is the justification for publishing this?

Then, all the other media, like BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, all became very high, immediately picked up this story.

Will this is acceptable, if I visit a US bar, and tell a stranger, “You know I heard that during this year’s US elections, all blacks will be banned from voting.” And a reporter from NY Times heard it, and published it as a headline news tomorrow: “US To Ban Blacks During This Election”

Please, don’t be too CNN.

July 19, 2008 @ 10:34 am | Comment

For that LA youtube clip

The youtube clip was in Canada, a different situation.

I like the way you googled and came up with an isolated incident from two years

On the other hand this “black ban” didn’t even happen… so I’m still one up

July 19, 2008 @ 10:55 am | Comment

Actually I’m surprised none of you are familiar with this issue (well maybe not, not like any of you have any idea what racism is like in Western countries because you’re white).

If they see any undesirables they will ask for multiple forms of ID. It is a common complaint amongst Africans and blacks especially.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:12 am | Comment

“If they see any undesirables they will ask for multiple forms of ID. It is a common complaint amongst Africans and blacks especially.”

Same thing happens in Beijing, Ferin. Not that you’d know.

Ferin: If somebody said that black people are clearly inferior (morally, intellectually, etc.) to whites and Asians, would that be considered racist?

July 19, 2008 @ 11:20 am | Comment

Here are some more if you are genuinely interested..

===
http://www.wisn.com/news/16821939/detail.html?rss=mil&psp=news

John Jordan, a 40-year-old, black Milwaukee man, was invited by a friend to head down to the east side to Decibel and its Deep Bar Vodka Lounge.

“I was greeted by two security officers and they were like, ‘Hold on, wait a minute,’ and I was like, ‘Ah, guys are asking me for my identification.’ I was like, ‘Great’ with laughter,” Jordan said. “They told me no your pants are too baggy, and I said, ‘No, you’re joking.”
===

NYC:

A Kip’s Bay nightclub reached a settlement agreement in a Manhattan, NY federal court. They agreed to pay a $35,000 fine. Prosecutors had charged that the club discriminated against black patrons.

===

SF:

A group of citizens is alleging that a Castro bar owner discriminates against minorities by asking them to show multiple pieces of photo identification or the contents of their wallets to gain admittance to his two clubs.

Some gay African Americans expressed concern …

===

My personal favorite:

The 51-year-old woman - a self-professed druid priestess - had also accused the Fitzroy St nightclub and its bouncers of religious discrimination

They don’t like Druid priestesses.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:21 am | Comment

would that be considered racist?

and stupid.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:22 am | Comment

Would you consider either Kang Youwei or Liang Qichao to be Chinese?

July 19, 2008 @ 11:23 am | Comment

Why, because they’re Cantonese?

July 19, 2008 @ 11:26 am | Comment

That is, why are you asking?

July 19, 2008 @ 11:26 am | Comment

Why does The Wild Man of Hubei look like a foreigner?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/30/1056825326577.html

July 19, 2008 @ 11:30 am | Comment

Because both Liang Qichao and Kang Youwei have stated, both explicitly and implicitly, that the world is divided along a racialist hierarchy and that “the brown-skinned” peoples were clearly inferior to Whites and Asians. And they weren’t alone, racialist discourse, as part of a Social Darwinist worldview, had (has had?) a rather long shelf-life here in China. Just two months ago, I was having dinner with a local businessman whose words echoed Liang and Kang and other previous racialist theories when he told me that the visa situation was good, “we need to keep out black people and let in white people because the black people’s quality is too low.”

Now, I’ve heard just as bad or worse in Boston, but here’s the point: These attitudes exist everywhere. Denying it just to salve a battered psyche gets in the way of addressing the problem and moving forward.

Ps. And Ferin, you’ll love this one: Kang also once suggested the intermarriage of Whites and Chinese to “improve the Chinese racial characteristics.” He was in a bit of ’scary eugenics’ kick for awhile.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:33 am | Comment

I’ve actually read that, and it of course was crap like much of the “thought” that existed in his day.

I don’t deny the attitude exists. I see their positive discrimination for whites as 100x worse than negative discrimination of blacks, however.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:39 am | Comment

you know why a piece of rumor like this, without a single shred of evidence to back it up, spreads so fast among blogs like this? because it makes u ppl high. oh China fucked up again! when we saw this thing, our 1st reaction is, please let it be false. and ur ppl’s 1st reaction is, god let this be true! otherwise you would have at least waited for some facts to emerge before you publish it.

deny all u want, but u know I m right.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:49 am | Comment

“I see their positive discrimination for whites as 100x worse than negative discrimination of blacks, however.”

Given the psychological baggage which over the years you have spewed forth on this site like last night’s jiaozi splattered across the floor and porcelain of the local hutong loo…imagine my shock.

I’m glad you admit that the attitude exists. Now, let us hope that China and the Chinese find a way to eliminate such attitudes from their hearts and minds quicker than has been the case elsewhere in the world. That would be a more impressive achievement than 100 CCTV towers or 1000 Soup Stadiums.

Ferin, no sane person would deny racism in the US or defend it. It’s abhorrent. It’s getting better, but not nearly fast enough. It is a lingering stench in the American house that must be eradicated once and for all.

But here’s the salient point: you come here looking to go “one up” and score points in a game that nobody else is playing. All I do is teach about China, the good, the bad, the beautiful and the ugly. It’s not about making somebody “look bad” or defending anything. You need to unwind about 85 notches and join the conversation. It’s a blog, not therapy.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:50 am | Comment

Now, let us hope that China and the Chinese find a way to eliminate such attitudes from their hearts and minds quicker than has been the case elsewhere in the world.

So you’re asking China to be the only non-racist country in the world? I said the attitude exists in the world. Not in China exclusively.

Black people simply whine too much just like Western expats in China. The people who treat black people the worst are other black people with their immense black on black murder rates.

All I do is teach about China, the good, the bad, the beautiful and the ugly.

I’m not saying you don’t, but it’s been a while since you’ve posted anything but bad and ugly. I’m not a CCP stooge so I’m not asking you to lie, but something “neutral” every now and then (or well substantiated) would be nice.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:56 am | Comment

@Jeremiah,

What’s the point of all this? dont u know Kang/Liang learnt that eugenics shit from Darwin’s cousin?

‘My proposal is to make the encouragement of Chinese settlements of Africa a part of our national policy, in the belief that the Chinese immigrants would not only maintain their position, but that they would multiply and their descendants supplant the inferior Negro race,’ Sir Francis Galton wrote to Times.

‘I should expect that the African seaboard, now sparsely occupied by lazy, palavering savages, might in a few years be tenanted by industrious, order-loving Chinese, living either as a semidetached dependency of China, or else in perfect freedom under their own law.’

racism in the society in one thing, racism backed by the government is another thing. u know any racial discrimination acts against Blacks or Jews backed by the government in Chinese history? like what US did to Chinese? Japeness? Blacks?

July 19, 2008 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

I’m guessing this is just a stupid rumor spread by someone keen to discredit further the Chinese in the lead up to the Olympics.

There’s no need to spread false rumors in order to discredit the Chinese regime. Those fascists in Beijing are doing a fine old job at doing that themselves, wouldn’t you agree?

Meanwhile, there is an interesting conversation taking place about ant-China ‘discourse’ taking place over at the http://www.underthejacaranda.wordpress.com blog, the views there are worth considering.

July 19, 2008 @ 12:15 pm | Comment

I think these rumors are false, designed to discredit the Chinese in the lead up to the Olympics, with the aim of scaring people away from attending.

There’s no need to try to discredit the regime in Beijing with fasle rumors, as they are already doing a mighty fine job of discrediting themselves, don’t ya think?

There’s an interesting conversation about anti-China ‘discourse’ taking place over at the http://www.underthejacaranda.wordpress.com site that’s worth checking out too.

July 19, 2008 @ 12:22 pm | Comment

I think these rumors are false, designed to discredit the Chinese in the lead up to the Olympics, with the aim of scaring people away from attending.

There’s no need to try to discredit the regime in Beijing with fasle rumors, as they are already doing a mighty fine job of discrediting themselves, don’t ya think?

July 19, 2008 @ 12:23 pm | Comment

There’s no need to try to discredit the regime in Beijing with fasle rumors, as they are already doing a mighty fine job of discrediting themselves, don’t ya think?

Yes.

July 19, 2008 @ 12:24 pm | Comment

Ah, moving the goal posts are we…I do not deny that racism in the US is of a more virulent and destructive quality than that found almost anywhere else, 300-odd years of institutional African slavery is a crime against humanity of incalculable horror. But the issue of debate was whether or not any such racist/racialist attitudes exist in the Chinese milieu, and, regardless of provenance, that they do.

Saying that it is worse in the US, while most assuredly true 100 times over, does not diminish this fact, but merely commits the error, per Mencius, of 以五十步笑百步.

July 19, 2008 @ 2:53 pm | Comment

[...] Granite Studio (YJ), Danwei, Beijing Boyce and a number of others have jumped to the call and found no evidence [...]

July 19, 2008 @ 2:56 pm | Pingback

I think all this is just a storm in a glass of water.

A rumor that in another time (not so close to the OG) would be discarded as mere gossip.

Attitudes of CH to blacks (darker skinned people than oneself..) or to other people with different ethnic characteristics? A mixture of the kind of petty racism to be found everywhere, but I think it is much closer to unfamiliarity.

My younger sister, when she was still a small kid, the first time she saw a black person cried very loud in front of him (to the embarrassment of my mother)
“Look mum a man made of chocolate!”
Was that sheer racism or just a normal surprise reaction at something unfamiliar?

One last thought. I think if Obama wins the election, it will do much to make darker skinned people more familiar to those who are now still somewhat unfamiliar with them.

July 19, 2008 @ 3:16 pm | Comment

“Can’t wait to see where this thread goes…”

For course, bad news for China is good news for you.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Actually, I don’t know if you can argue that racism today is worse in the US than say China or many other places. I would say that because the US has always involved a mix and clash of cultures, and the awful moral cancer of slavery, that racism has been more of an overt issue in the US than in a lot of other places. But on the other hand, if you look at studies of Muslims and how they have integrated into “the West,” all of them will show that in general, Muslims in the US fare better and feel more a part of the larger country than Muslims in Western Europe.

China has its “ethnic minorities” and all kinds of funny stereotypes and clashes between regions, but there is still a lack of exposure broadly across China to different races and cultures (some more than others).

And by the same token, I was talking to a friend of mine today who shared with me some experiences about a Mexican American man and his Korean American girlfriend, who went to Mexico recently for an arts festival. And they were treated very badly at times because of his “Chinese” girlfriend!

Racism and more generally the fear of the Other exists in every culture on this earth to varying degrees. In spite of America’s deep racial problems (and don’t even get me started on the sexism, which I would argue is even more ingrained and so internalized that it’s barely even questioned), it still remains the most successful model of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society on the planet.

It’s like democracy. It pretty much sucks, but it’s the best thing we’ve come up with thus far.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:16 pm | Comment

Actually, I don’t know if you can argue that racism today is worse in the US than say China or many other places. I would say that because the US has always involved a mix and clash of cultures

I think this is why it is actually worse than in China, because most of the major ethnic groups in the U.S have a bad history with each other. I’m not talking just about black/white conflict, but the “Latino”/black race warfare gets really bad too.

In China it’s mostly ignorance and a lack of experience, but they would probably learn to distrust foreigners more (like Japan and Korea) the more they are exposed to them.

it still remains the most successful model of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society on the planet.

It’s like democracy. It pretty much sucks, but it’s the best thing we’ve come up with thus far.

Most places are “multicultural”.. India, Russia, China, South America, Southeast Asia, etc. As bad as China can be there is still less violent race/ethnic conflict in China (and before anyone says they “are all the same race”; they aren’t) than in any of these places. But then again it’s hard to separate normal crimes and “hate crimes” with Russia/Brazil/USA’s astronomical crime rates.

As far as democracy being the best system we have, no one’s really been given much of a chance to try something else without bombings and sanctions, and even when they do “vote” for someone the U.S/Britain does not like they still get a complimentary “regime change”.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:37 pm | Comment

And they were treated very badly at times because of his “Chinese” girlfriend! it’s the best thing we’ve come up with thus far.

Left a part out, sorry.

Anyway this is a reason why I think multiculturalism is a failure by default. People are too stupid and ignorant to get along with people of their own race and religion, so mixing them up together now should be avoided unless in exceptional cases.

Maybe after some kind of breakthrough in biotech turns everyone at least moderately intelligent, multiculturalism won’t work.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:38 pm | Comment

So is it true, as WaPo reports, that China is becoming less friendly to foreigners?

Michael

July 19, 2008 @ 8:28 pm | Comment

”
I think these rumors are false, designed to discredit the Chinese in the lead up to the Olympics, with the aim of scaring people away from attending.

There’s no need to try to discredit the regime in Beijing with fasle rumors, as they are already doing a mighty fine job of discrediting themselves, don’t ya think?”

Quote of the day.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:21 pm | Comment

I did some asking around and wasn’t able to come up with anything either. There is a related article in today’s Globe and Mail, though: Africans in Beijing harassed as Olympics approach, following on yesterday’s Beijing busy welcoming the world as it turns away its ethnic minorities.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:27 pm | Comment

“Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 8:47 am

“As bad as China can be there is still less violent race/ethnic conflict in China (and before anyone says they “are all the same race”; they aren’t) than in any of these places.”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 4:37 pm

This American troll not only can’t be bothered with reading other people’s comments before replying to them, he doesn’t even read his own comments before posting them.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

From the link Brendan posted above, I’m copying it below because it corresponds fairly closely with conversations I’ve had with African and African-American friends in Beijing. I HIGHLY doubt any government official would make it a policy to discriminate against people of color at the Games, but the kind of discrimination described below is quite routine here in Beijing, as it is, sadly, in many other places as well:

“In interviews Friday, a number of Africans said they are facing discriminatory rules from Beijing’s bars and nightclubs as the Olympics approach.

A woman from Liberia, who is co-owner of a hair salon in Beijing, said she was outraged when she visited a popular Beijing nightclub and found that the entrance fee for black people was twice as high as for other foreigners.

Even if they managed to enter the club, the black patrons were prohibited from sitting at the tables, she said.

In another incident, she said, an African-owned bar was raided this week by police with dogs, and the customers were required to provide urine samples for drug tests.

“When the police come, you have to run,” she said. “I’ve lived in Holland and the United States and it was never like this. There’s no human rights here. It’s racist and it makes me feel very bad.”

If the police are now ordering bars to prohibit black people from entering, it is highly unfair, she said. “Every race has good people and bad people. You can’t blame all blacks for drugs. If a person is not causing a problem, you shouldn’t bother them.”

Two Nigerian businessmen said they were required to show their passports before being allowed to enter a Beijing nightclub last weekend. Black people who could not produce their passports were barred from entering the club, but other foreigners were not required to show their passports, they said.

“This had never happened before to me,” one of the Nigerians said. “I was very angry. This is racism.”

The Africans spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing more harassment from the police if they are identified. The Nigerians, interviewed at a bar, asked that the bar not be identified because they were worried that it could be raided if the police learned that Africans congregate there.”

July 19, 2008 @ 9:44 pm | Comment

The new visa policy is just ridiculous. In trying to stop foreign human rights protestors going to Beijing by making it difficult for everyone to go there/stay, the Chinese government is doing the equivalent of using a nuclear weapon to get rid of an ant hill.

July 19, 2008 @ 10:03 pm | Comment

“Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 8:47 am

“As bad as China can be there is still less violent race/ethnic conflict in China (and before anyone says they “are all the same race”; they aren’t) than in any of these places.”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 4:37 pm

This pathetic little troll not only can’t be bothered with reading other people’s comments before replying to them. He obviously doesn’t even read his own comments before posting them.

I also find it very interesting that the same person who keeps pointing out cases of racial discrimination in the evil US of A (ferin’s home country, by the way) even from years ago makes a statement like “Black people simply whine too much”. Could be straight from the mouth of a right-wing Republican redneck I once met.

July 19, 2008 @ 10:07 pm | Comment

@Moneyball

Based on your reply, I guess you would consider yourself one of the 50 centers in question, correct?

Call me what you want. I really don’t see how my second post influenced the debate on this topic at all, since it was only replied to by 2 people (including you). So if I got paid 30 cents for the post, I guess I didn’t deserve it. (In fact, having been written for a bit of fun, I would say that my post got 2 more replies than it deserved.)

Besides I think my prediction of the pro-china defense was pretty accurate. Not that I should pat myself on the back, when you’ve heard the same strategy employed over and over again, it gets pretty easy to predict how arguments over these type of stories will play out.

But I guess the 50 centers would say the same thing about anti-CCP folks, right? That we always make the same arguments? (It would have been more amusing if you had given a similar summary of the anti-CCP strategy, but alas, you seem to take debating on blogs a bit too personally for such a reply.)

July 19, 2008 @ 10:18 pm | Comment

“Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 8:47 am

“As bad as China can be there is still less violent race/ethnic conflict in China (and before anyone says they “are all the same race”; they aren’t) than in any of these places.”

Posted by ferin July 19, 2008 @ 4:37 pm

This pathetic little troll not only can’t be bothered with reading other people’s comments before replying to them. He obviously doesn’t even read his own comments before posting them.

I also find it very interesting that the same person who keeps pointing out cases of racial discrimination in the evil US of A (ferin’s home country, by the way) even from years ago makes a statement like “Black people simply whine too much”. Could be straight from the mouth of a right-wing Republican redneck I once met. Maybe that’s ferin’s real identity?

July 19, 2008 @ 10:20 pm | Comment

@Jeremiah

“Saying that it is worse in the US, while most assuredly true 100 times over, does not diminish this fact, but merely commits the error, per Mencius, of 以五十步笑百步.”

I can’t believe this is coming from a history major. The US had a long history of INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM against it’s minorities, while PRC never had such problem. Who is “五十步笑百步” here?

If you think that the current racial relations in north America is better than the ones in China, then you are delusional, my friend. It always baffles me why you think you have the moral high ground on this subject. Of couese Westerners have the right to criticize China’s minority policies, but doing so would only make you a hypocrite.

July 19, 2008 @ 11:26 pm | Comment

AC,

That’s the most baffling comment I’ve read in a long while and I suggest you reread my comment more carefully.

I said: “Saying that it is worse in the US, while most assuredly true 100 times over…”

“If you think that the current racial relations in north America is better than the ones in China”

Which part of “most assuredly true 100 times over” confused you? Shall I provide a crib sheet next time?

All I’m doing is to suggest that Beijing does have a problem with discrimination against people of color and there have been cases which warrant attention. When discussing this, many Chinese “patriots” “counter” this argument by saying racism is worse in the US (五十步) or even suggest that “racism and discrimination do not exist in China”. It’s a classic fallacy and I believe PR types call it ‘misdirection.’ Point conceded: Race relations are a bigger problem in the US than in China. Fine, it still doesn’t address the issue on the table.

I couldn’t agree more that race relations were of a fundamentally different nature in US history than in Chinese history and as I’ve acknowledged several times: the state of race relations in the US is horrific and has been for a long time.

That does not however prove untrue the statement that there are some problems here in Beijing, where I live, with discrimination towards people of color–including friends of mine–which I feel merit discussion towards greater understanding and a possible solution, while at no point in making this suggestion do I attempt to establish any form of equivalency between the two histories.

Please read for comprehension next time. It makes my life easier as I don’t have to waste time repeating the same points over again.

July 20, 2008 @ 12:25 am | Comment

As for being a hypocrite, well…I don’t share you and your compatriots’ fetishizations of the nation-state and ethnicity as the sole foci of human loyalty and identity. In that, at least, I agree with Kang Youwei. (cf. Kang’s commentary on the 大同）

July 20, 2008 @ 12:28 am | Comment

@Jeremiah

Please pardon my poor reading skills. Could you please be kind enough to rephrase the following statement so I can understand it?

“Saying that it is worse in the US, while most assuredly true 100 times over, does not diminish this fact, but merely commits the error, per Mencius, of 以五十步笑百步.”

I thought the meaning of the above statement is:

“Saying that it is worse in the US” commits the error of 以五十步笑百步.

In other words, you were accusing ferin of making the mistake of “以五十步笑百步”. Did I get this wrong?

July 20, 2008 @ 12:56 am | Comment

It is a well known fact that many Chinese people don’t like black people. It’s also a well known fact that many Chinese people claim that there is no racism in China. You think that’s a contradiction? That’s because you don’t understand China.

P.S.: To all those fenqing out there:

I didn’t say all Chinese people, I didn’t even say most Chinese people, I said MANY as in A LOT.

July 20, 2008 @ 1:05 am | Comment

There is no racism in China. Whoever claims differently just doesn’t understand China.

July 20, 2008 @ 1:08 am | Comment

@ Andy R

I was merely saying you are stupid, more than 50 centers,
based on the responses from u and the responses from 50 centers (as you imagined)
that’s all.

July 20, 2008 @ 1:14 am | Comment

the key thing is not what happened in the past and what’s happnening in a bar in China, and a bar in US, when an African comes in. you cant possibly get a full picture of that.
the key thing is how China and US government/politicians have been treating racial minorities.

July 20, 2008 @ 1:19 am | Comment

Jeez…when was the last time you people were in a bar/club? There’s plenty of bars/clubs from Germany to Thailand to the US that have bouncers/managers/owners that’ll discriminate. It doesn’t make it right but shit happens, these comments are just ridiculous.

July 20, 2008 @ 2:38 am | Comment

@ MIchael Turton - I can’t explain it but I just got a year-long multi-entry visa with 60 day stays. I’m in California, so I’m sure that’s part of the explanation - but still…most of the paperwork I gave to the visa service to give to the Chinese consulate was returned to me (and some they didn’t even bother to take).

The one thing I did have to do was write a letter saying that I would not be engaging in any “filming” - I work in the entertainment industry.

So it’s odd. I provided all this documentation for this trip, but the next time I go, I already have the visa, so apparently I won’t need to provide anything (as in the past).

July 20, 2008 @ 3:39 am | Comment

@Moneyball

Nice response, real mature. Thanks for your input.

July 20, 2008 @ 4:07 am | Comment

so this story is pretty much false…but what’s real is how fast it spreads like a wild fire in west media over night, and how people react to it. this whole thing didnt reveal much about Chinese, but revealed some true nature of some others.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2047930/posts#comment

July 20, 2008 @ 4:12 am | Comment

Oh, for god’s sake - free republic?! That is one of the worst fringe/hate sites on the web. You want to find something to confirm your worst suspicions/fear-mongering, you will find it there. Just as you will find similar nut-jobs on some Chinese boards.

July 20, 2008 @ 4:26 am | Comment

So far this is the biggest news org I’ve seen carry the story (and they actually add something to it with their own research…). The rest has all been blogs, so I think we have a ways to go before describing it as spreading across western media like wildfire. (Someone on another blog mentioned CNN has picked it up, but since CNN has become a synonym in China for Western media, I have my doubts.)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080719.CHINA19/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

July 20, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

There’s no human rights here. It’s racist and it makes me feel very bad.”

Sucks, but developing countries are harsh. That’s probably why she was in Holland to begin with.

It is a well known fact that many Chinese people don’t like black people.

Actually it is a well-known myth spread by whites who are self-concious about how they enslaved and murdered black people by the millions. Yes, many Chinese people don’t like blacks but even more whites hate them. Arabs and Indians hate blacks and so do Mestizos/Amerinds.

Who’s to blame? Probably a combination of European propaganda along with high crime rates among Africans.

“Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).”

Sorry I wasn’t aware you were reading or I would have been more specific so that even the very stupid could understand. Finland has a handful of Sami but they aren’t a significant % of the population. A significant portion of China has mixed blood but they aren’t really aware of that for the most part. When it comes to actual racial minorities there are a few but not enough to create the kind of large conflicts that exist in the U.S.

July 20, 2008 @ 4:51 am | Comment

There’s no human rights here. It’s racist and it makes me feel very bad.”

Sucks, but developing countries are harsh. That’s probably why she was in Holland to begin with.

It is a well known fact that many Chinese people don’t like black people.

Actually it is a well-known myth spread by whites who are self-concious about how they enslaved and murdered black people by the millions. Yes, many Chinese people don’t like blacks but even more whites hate them. Arabs and Indians hate blacks and so do Mestizos/Amerinds.

Who’s to blame? Probably a combination of European propaganda along with high crime rates among Africans.

“Racism is not a problem in China or Finland or other monoracial states because they have no racial minorities (ethnic discrimination is another thing).”

Sorry I wasn’t aware you were reading or I would have been more specific so that even the very stupid could understand. Finland has a handful of Sami but they aren’t a significant % of the population. A significant portion of China has mixed blood but they aren’t really aware of that for the most part. When it comes to actual racial minorities there are a few but not enough to create the kind of large conflicts that exist in the U.S. Instead just add “pra

July 20, 2008 @ 4:51 am | Comment

AC,

Perhaps I should have phrased clearer, my apologies. That is: To say that the US has a race problem does not deny or diminish the fact that racial discrimination exists in China as well while at no point does it attempt to suggest an equivalency in the historical experience of colonized/enslaved groups in either place.

Why is this important? While I can’t speak for other commentators, but for me this issue is one specific to the city I live and limited to a handful of incidents. I’d like to see these incident discussed openly and addressed constructively.

Yet doing so gets sidetracked by ‘defenders’ of China who attempt to drag what is a local issue into a larger and less productive dialogue of “China vs. the US” and make asinine and unsupportable statements like “Chinese people can’t be racist,” or “There is no racism in China” or else ‘counter’ by pointing out the racism is worse in the US and so cannot be discussed in China.

It’s as if a Beijing resident studying in Boston were to suggest that despite the “Big Dig” the amount of cars on the road was still causing gridlock and harming air quality. It’s a legitimate concern worthy of discussion. If that Beijinger in Boston were to further suggest that one of the reasons for these problems is that Americans drive too much and are too attached to their cars as status symbols, I would have to agree that this was a valid observation and certainly highlights one or two of the possible root causes of the problem.

Now to adopt the methods too often seen on this board by so-called Chinese ‘patriots,’ 1) I would first dismiss the concerns outright because a Chinese person could not possibly understand American psychology on cars; 2) I would point out the air quality and traffic are often worse in Beijing, therefore implying that opening a discussion on Boston traffic and air quality is hypocritical; 3) I would finally accuse our Beijinger in Boston of not really caring about air, traffic, or the time it takes to get to Fenway, but simply being an America-basher with an agenda to bring down the republic. (It’s also possible that they might be a Yankee fan as well which would mean all bets were off, but I digress…)

The other analogy I thought of would be a Chinese graduate student studying labor relations in the US commenting on the often deplorable safety conditions in the US mining industry and suggesting solutions. We all know the disastrous record of the Chinese coal mining industry in terms of worker safety, but that shouldn’t in any way minimize the validity of the observations from our fictional student in the US.

Are we so in love with the nation-state or ethnic identity that every issue has to be forced into a nei/wai framework? What of common humanity? What of shared community concerns?

July 20, 2008 @ 5:52 am | Comment

AC,

Yeah, that was a cheap shot last night and I’m sorry. In a pathetic defense, it was late and I’m moving this weekend and so was surrounded by boxes until past midnight. If you’ve ever done a big move, you know what that’s like. I was tired and cranky and attempting to be glib but came off insulting. My apologies.

July 20, 2008 @ 5:54 am | Comment

I take it that I’m not a “Chinese defender” then because my argument is just that even if it did happen it’s not a big deal. It happens everywhere. That’s all that needs to be said, no need to dig into the early 20th century with speculative pontification about how racism in China may or may not have developed.

China (much) has bigger problems to deal with.

July 20, 2008 @ 6:01 am | Comment

has much bigger problems to deal with**

sorry

July 20, 2008 @ 6:09 am | Comment

a few weeks ago, a british indian boy who works for tata consulting in UK told me, there was a ranking done by some organization in Swizterland or some european countries said the corruption in India is much much worse than China, then i just asked with curiosity, i said “isnt it true there is free of speech in India and media are not controled by the government, more freedom and democracy, then i said why there are much more corruption in India, what are the media are doing, who they are speaking for? i under thand the corruption in China though, because the government control the media?”

July 20, 2008 @ 8:46 am | Comment

Great discussion here guys, both insightful and entertaining. As an African-American living in Sichuan Province for the past 4 years I have experienced first hand their racism on almost every level. I personally have no doubt whatsoever that they do indeed have this policy of discrimination and at times outright hatred for us, it is sickening. I mean it has no basis here, there is no history of slavery like we had back at home so I am both astonished and appalled by their behavior. I admit some of this is born out of ignorance, lack of education and at times outright miseducation. Part of the reason that I endure the hatred is to give them reason not to hate, a reason not to be so ignorant. It is my hope that through my actions they can see that my people are indeed well-educated and indeed well cultured, maybe I can change a few hearts and the future may not be so bleak for a country with so much potential, as I believe most Chinese people would like to get along with others.

July 20, 2008 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

@wayaround

Maybe you should change your moniker into “offtopic”.

@Ferin

You should listen to Ra. He has spent more time in China than you have, so he knows more about racism there and if it’s “a big deal” or not.

And no, you are no “Chinese defender”, you are just an average American troll, no real job, no girlfriend and no hobbies either, so you spend your time writing inane comments on topics you know nothing about.

By the way, you haven’t explained your self-contradiction yet. How can China be a “monoracial state” without racial minorities (as you stated in comment No. 32), if Chinese people are not “all the same race” (as you stated in comment No. 60)?

July 20, 2008 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

@Ra
Interesting to hear the experiences of an african-american expat.

That CH or any other country does not have a past of slavery like in US does not prevent it against racism specially against “deeper colored” people. Both things do not go together. Actually few countries has done more to fight against “visceral” racism like the US.

My experience is that when people unused to it met for first time a very much darker african, the first reaction is often negative: afraid, distrustful, cautious.

Reaction by countries may vary. I myself was asked in the US once where I came from, because I was… too dark! Too much sun tanned I think. The guy could not believe that my hometown was more to the north located than NY!

It would be interesting to see, if the Obama effect will changes this. I am not a big fun of him, but just because of is origins and looks it will be an interesting presidency.

July 20, 2008 @ 4:16 pm | Comment

of course there is racial discrimination problems, that is why chinese need to be educated of this kind of ignorance, but hollywood films are not helpful either, many of them describe black people as criminals, rude ,drug dealer, uneducated, this is probabbly the only source that chinese can get the impression of black people

July 21, 2008 @ 12:48 am | Comment

I have posted this elsewhere, but I thought it is pertinent to this discussion.

Now we actually do have evidence that Tibetans and Uighurs are being racially profiled. Shanghaiist has identified a set of security regulations from Shanghai’s people square, which includes following:

Whenever anyone that can be identified as “Tibetans”, “Xinjiang Uyghurs” and “Qinghai Hualong Hui’s” enters the building, please report them to the security department. Security guards will persuade them to leave the building, or follow them till they do so.

对可以确认身份的外来“西藏人”，“新疆维吾尔族“，“青海华隆回族人“进入大厦，请立即报告保安部，保安人员会力劝其离开大厦，离开前要全程监控。

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/07/19/racial_profiling_at_shanghais_jw_ma.php#more

July 21, 2008 @ 1:37 am | Comment

The Left has as many totalitarians and nutjobs as the right, unfortunately. And as many people who are incapable of seeing nuance.

My own feelings about the Games in China are mixed. The crackdown on dissidents is the opposite of what the Chinese government promised the Olympic committee. The forced relocation of thousands of Beijingers from their homes is also a tragedy. But do I want to see some kind of violence or disaster at the Games? Of course not.

And quite frankly, responding to stupid, hateful nationalism with more stupid, hateful nationalism is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.

July 21, 2008 @ 2:39 am | Comment

And as a p.s….well, two.

I’d say most people posting to online forums tend to have extreme views of one variety or another. That’s what motivates them to post. The other motivations are common interests and community-building - unfortunately the extremists often down the others out.

Also, I am going to repost a part of what I posted above in response to our pal HongXing:

the Olympics have ALWAYS involved politics and protest. Always. Name ONE Game that hasn’t. There isn’t one. I am honestly flabbergasted by the way the protests caught the Chinese Central government so flat-footed. They were completely predictable, and if you want to host the Games, you ought to know this is a part of what you’ll get. The reactions of the government remind me of China 15 years ago. Opening the door and then slamming it shut while the guests are entering.

And as usual, I am looking forward to seeing friends, speaking Chinese and visiting a country that I truly love, and want the best for.

July 21, 2008 @ 2:47 am | Comment

to Hemulen

i don’t see there is anything wrong with that, everyone knows there are seperatists from these ethnics chinese, and there were violence happened before by these ethnic chinese, i have