Was Tibet the Storm Before the Calm

Via a link this great blogger left on Facebook, I found this very entertaining article. Is it based in any reality? I have no idea. My first instinct is to believe BOCOG and their PR people (my competitors) could never begin to have the PR acumen to choreograph such a delicate operation, but who knows? Definitely read it, especially if you are interested in the PR, Olympics and fairy tales.

The final section made me smile; the picture it paints is awfully rosy:

….China now has stakes in some of the great symbols of the western corporate world – such as Merrill Lynch and BP. China is starting to push back. Many young Chinese know that the likeliest outcome for the short-to-mid-term future is for Chinese companies and organisations to initiate a fresh and startling process of globalisation. More and more of the international agenda is now in China’s hands to shape.

So as western journalists write the Olympic stories they had already planned months before, delivering them to an audience who are already suspecting them – and thus deprived of their element of surprise and shock – the Chinese people, like sensible people anywhere, will be relaxing, sitting back, looking at this event and seeing it for what it is – a mere three weeks of corporate frenzy, redeemed by a few sublime moments of sporting excitement, which will dissolve almost as soon as it is over. When it is, the Chinese people will be able to continue the remarkable journey they began many decades ago – and which, unlike the Olympics, really can and will change the world.

No doubt their journey has been remarkable, and it’s already changed the world, painful as that is for some to acknowledge. Whether it’s sustainable or ultimately built on sand no one can say. What I can say with authority is that the author is a little bit giddy about China’s rise, which, as much as I want it to go on, is a lot more tenuous than you’d know from reading this article.

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As a lot of you know, I’ve been too busy and in too many airports and hotels to give this site any attention the past few weeks and my heart definitely isn’t in it. I’m trying to get back into it, but it just can’t be a high priority for me right now.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 52 Comments

Hard to ignore the royal tone of this piece, whereby the author dips into and “speaks” for the pysche of the Chinese people. And I must assume that the “remarkable” journey began decades ago refers to the CCP’s arrival in power. Do I detect a certain nostalgia for single party rule here? Yes, “like sensible people everywhere” the Chinese will not be swept up in the hype. Well, the author certainly “knows” his Chinese. Yeah, right.

May 9, 2008 @ 2:00 am | Comment

One thing that’s bugged me for a long time is the really low quality media/journalism available in the mainstream. People are so complacent that it’s depressing, but the one good thing (theres probly a lot more) thats come of this whole thing is people being critical of western media.in general.

Anyway, now I feel like I am blaming the media for my problems, I shouldnt do that, but I do hope that this uproar will spur the media to DO A BETTER JOB, get off their butts and investigate rather than just working as propaganda parasites.

I guess it’s corruption, and thats why I cant blame them, what am I gonna do, ask them to be good people and respect themselves and others?

That doesnt seem to be what the ultranationalist want though, they just want a compliment and for westerners to follow the party line (for sure thats what they want, dont deny it) If they really wanted fair reporting and good honest journalism they would not condemn Zheng Ping http://nomoreccp.wordpress.com/
and they would have made some demands on their own lying ruler by now. No, they just want what feels good, whether it be truth or lies. (hey, I’m overgeneralizing ok) Why dont they go around with banners saying truth instead of commy flag? exactly.

There seems to be some conspiracy theories against RSF as well…?

Anyway, am I in a bad mood? Richard, you don’t sound too happy… I Like your blog, but maybe you want to change it and make it more fun for you??? Is Raj too busy? Anyway, be positive if you can. For what it’s worth, I think the sand will sift and wisdom will come out on top. You have done a lot to promote discussion and learning and have born a lot of depressing crap as well,

kudos to you and that.

May 9, 2008 @ 2:21 am | Comment

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/05/zhang-boshu-the-way-to-resolve-the-tibet-issue/

any one have a link to the chinese language version of this?

May 9, 2008 @ 6:25 am | Comment

snow, you’re right, I am in a terrible mood. Right now the blog is more of a headache than anything else. But I will be back.

May 9, 2008 @ 10:03 am | Comment

another nice read

http://sun-bin.blogspot.com/2008/05/spiegel-vs-adidas.html

May 9, 2008 @ 10:06 am | Comment

:::When Beijing won the right to host the 2008 Olympics in 2001, many on all sides may well have sincerely believed that in seven years’ time China would have made great progress both in human rights and in political reform. Their hopes proved unfounded, but their optimism should be no more dismissed than others’ bleak (or in this case realistic) pessimism deserves to be applauded.:::

You know I look at that and I keep thinking that the Beijing Olympics organizers made commitments to the IOC and the world about human rights and freedom of the press and stuff in order to be awarded the right to host the games and now they’ve blown them all off.

And now with a lot of PR and forgetting/rewriting the history of those commitments, the masses just shrug their shoulders and tell us the folks who expected the CCP to live up to their commitments are just fuzzy headed idealists living in fantasy land.

Would you say the same for a person with a contract with a Chinese supplier? When the Chinese business supplier fails to fulfill commitment after commitment they’ve made, would the ubermensch of Chinese business law just say “have patience, things are getting better”?

May 9, 2008 @ 12:41 pm | Comment

Actually, the Olympics PR peice about shaping the future sounds like the psychology of a prison parole board officer, hues of sado-masochism.

May 9, 2008 @ 3:49 pm | Comment

Scene from the movie “Oceans 13″:

[Matt Damon plays Foreign Devil assistant to PRC property tycoon, Mr. Wang. Matt Damon is dressed in a blue 'Mao Suit' and has a huge, phallic nose]:

“When you work for a powerful man like Mr. WANG, you learn not to ask questions.”

["Wang" in English is slang for penis.]

May 9, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

No racial stereotypes here then. Those crafty, scheming, long-term thinkers, they’ve outfoxed us again! Drat!

May 9, 2008 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

Why is it that Chinese blokes have a difficult time pulling birds?

In Indonesia, Western blokes are always complaining about Western birds sleeping with the local Indonesian guys.

Maybe the Chinese blokes should try this line the next time that they meet a Western bird:

“My friend. He have penis, big banana!”

May 9, 2008 @ 7:02 pm | Comment

@Tom

“Would you say the same for a person with a contract with a Chinese supplier? When the Chinese business supplier fails to fulfill commitment after commitment they’ve made, would the ubermensch of Chinese business law just say ‘have patience, things are getting better’?”

Couldn’t agree more with you, Tom, but this is exactly what happens all the time in China. You sign a contract with your Chinese partner, you get screwed, and then you are told that you were naive to believe that a contract means anything in China. If you, however, happen to breach the contract or, God forbid, do something illegal, the same people (Chinese nationalists and sinophiles from all over the world) will be up in arms about the bad laowai who doesn’t respect China and its law.

May 10, 2008 @ 3:10 am | Comment

To Richard et al,
See now you feel the need to explain yourself to the Chinese that you hold no hostility against Chinese people and the government. It?s a shame that you don?t realize you and your fellow friends have made the same mistakes American, Canadian, British, French and German media had made: criticizing Beijing Olympics does not impede what the government is doing, what your business partner is doing, but hurt Chinese people?s feeling. You and your friends don?t understand the game does not solely belong to CCP but the more importantly, the Chinese people (here I mean Chinese people in a general sense). You can go ahead and put Western media and freedom of speech, objective reports on the pedestal, but you: Richard, someone who play this game with media, who manipulate the channel to influence what people think and believe, should know better than anyone else, that media, no matter in whatever kind, is the same in nature. Business, politics, are the same.
You ask me to give you a few similar example, and here are some out of one part of my paper, I can go on for pages if you wish me to:
1 The court upheld convictions of Socialist Party officials who had mailed anti-war leaflets to draftees (Schenck V. United States)
The court affirmed convictions of two individuals who had published newspaper articles that, according to the Court?s own description, consisted of broad political condemnations of the war.
Most notoriously, the court in Debs v. U.S., affirmed the conviction and ten-year prison sentence of Eugene Debs, the leader of the Socialist Party and a substantial national figure who would garner over 900,000 votes from jail in the 1920s.
Oh, and don?t forget about The Joe in the 50s, when ?red scare? broke out right before Chinese cultural revolution.
The mayor of NYC, after 911, banned all kinds of protests in the city, and the Mayor of Seattle when the WTO meeting was held, set the same kinds of bans.
History usually repeats itself, and it usually runs parallel in two economic and political powers.
And you, who works in between, representing only one ideology, need to watch what you are saying. It?s good to be opinionated, but it does not look so good when you speak before you know the facts of both sides. But again, who knows? While you and your friends are chanting how Chinese people are brain-washed by the government, are you and your friends living examples of strong advocates of your media and your government?s ideologies?
Who has not been brainwashed?
It?s okay, we don?t have to hold a distinct political view, but at least feel grateful for what you have here. Without Chinese CCP/government, you think you could earn money like this in the capital of this country with one of the biggest Chinese companies while having fellow Chinese people working for you?
Be grateful and have some respect.
If you can?t even accept this Chinese concept, adapt what the Westerners always say, in Rome, do what the Romans do — you don?t want to be disliked in this country, at least not at this moment.

May 10, 2008 @ 9:53 am | Comment

It’s a shame that you don’t realize you and your fellow friends have made the same mistakes American, Canadian, British, French and German media had made: criticizing Beijing Olympics does not impede what the government is doing, what your business partner is doing, but hurt Chinese people’s feeling.

Any idea how childish that sounds: You hurt my feelings!!!

If you can’t even accept this Chinese concept, adapt what the Westerners always say, in Rome, do what the Romans do — you dont want to be disliked in this country, at least not at this moment.

Sounds like a threat to me.

May 10, 2008 @ 10:28 am | Comment

shnappie,

I think you are right that to some Chinese people they are hurt feelings because they think THEY are being falsely accused and discriminated against.. That is a problem and it is the CCP and the information block that has caused this problem. The CCP mixes it’s identity together with the identity of the country itself, and thats’ the way Westerners are seeing the torch (only some).

Only one voice is heard from China in the world and it is about human rights violation, as well as CCP taking credit for economic increase. We never hear about any Chinese people except Falun Gong and some other small groups about there being any difference between China and CCP, (remember Grace Wang?)

But how could this misunderstanding be solved? Easily through open communication. If Chinese people were allowed or had the guts to communicate rationally with the western media, then this could all be cleared up (CNN apologized and made it clear that the reporter was referring to the CCP in his thugs and goons comments).

But instead of solving these problems through rational dialogue and developing understanding, the CCP has used the “bias” of the west to promote extra hate, no attempt to solve through talk and understanding. The CCP has not even made a move to sort out the different viewpoints…. Why? They fired Mr Ping because he wanted to cool off and be rational, why? People who take a calm look at the truth are treated and evil traitors. Why? Dalai Lama wants to talk things out, but instead the CCP call him evil beast, they could resolve it but they are using all of this and they have always twisted everything in order to guide along the public ideological fanaticism, controlling the peoples level of understanding to keep them reeling for a cause and needing the CCP to protect them from the anti China forces.

Don’t the Chinese people wonder WHY they are being deprived information??????????

May 10, 2008 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

Who’s “Mr. Ping”? Is that “ping” as in “peace”, or “ping” as in “level”?

“They fired Mr Ping because he wanted to cool off and be rational, why?”

May 10, 2008 @ 2:32 pm | Comment

The path to harmony between foreigners and Chinese starts with “a little kiss…a like this…”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8A0rhVG91U

May 10, 2008 @ 2:47 pm | Comment

Jia You! Jia You!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLSnZjLPor8&NR=1

May 10, 2008 @ 5:40 pm | Comment

“Don’t the Chinese people wonder WHY they are being deprived information?”

I honestly believe that the majority are unwilling to face the challenge to their existing schemas that such a contemplation of new information would entail.

Thus, even if they suspect there is more to an issue than their government is letting on, most Chinese are not prepared to seek out (or accept) additional input because the ensuing internal conflict is too much for them to deal with.

It’s so much simpler, and beautifully consistent with CCP rhetoric, to label all alternative viewpoints as ‘western propaganda’, ‘western bias’, or ‘western lies’.

May 10, 2008 @ 7:23 pm | Comment

Stuart wrote:

“It’s so much simpler, and beautifully consistent with CCP rhetoric, to label all alternative viewpoints as ‘western propaganda’, ‘western bias’, or ‘western lies’. ”

US law professor and academic, Randall Pereenboom, in his book “China Modernizes” also adopts the Chinese label of alternative western viewpoints as ‘western bias’. It’s interesting how foreign China academics parrot the slogans.

May 10, 2008 @ 8:57 pm | Comment

I did not mean to threat anyone here with my comment.
What I mean is a reminder of those who speak endlessly about the so called “human right” issue and what CCP has done wrong.
I see non of you made a counter=argument about how you should feel grateful for you can do business in China because of CCp’s policy, so I assume you agree with me, even if you might not want to admit.
One thing I feel it’s a great ashame is that, you have always been saying that Chinese are the one who are deprived from information, and that CCp accusing Western media being biased.
It’ s understandab;e to stand up for your media and your country’s political stand, afterall, it’s what most “angry youth” are reacting to the western media.
But don’t you think it’s the same that when you speak align with your media, is a great example of you being brainwashed by the western mainstream media?
when the mainstream media omitted the information about CIA’s plan on Tibet after cold war, and how they use Dalai Lama as a poppet and paint a peaceful mask for him to be active in western media to fool the audience, didn’t you just take what you are told without thinking twice?
sufficient evidence, facts and history can prove what I say, if you do a simple google research online, but I assume you will not do so. So why do I bother to convince you here? You are already brainwashed, and not accepting this fact but pointing you finger to the Chinese is not a wise way. Since I believe no one wants to be called a hypocite. right? lol
banam, my mere personal opininon posted on this journal with limited traffic can hurt your feeling, and consider to put yourself in the Chinese people’s (domestic and abroad) shoes, when everyday what they face, read, hear and told are accusations of their country and their people, how would they feel?
oh well, maybe we are, afterall, stronger when faced with opposition, maybe we are calmer, in the midst of upheavals…and it is precisely why this nation, this culture stood in this world longer than most other ones.

May 11, 2008 @ 3:27 am | Comment

@schnappie

consider to put yourself in the Chinese people’s (domestic and abroad) shoes, when everyday what they face, read, hear and told are accusations of their country and their people, how would they feel?

…and you should try to put your self into the shoes of ethnic Tibetans and imagine what they are going through right now in China, where Xinhua is spewing bile on DL and Tibetan culture non-stop, and where there is absolutely no room for legitimate protest.

May 11, 2008 @ 3:39 am | Comment

@amban,

i suspect you just don’t read through my post…
what I have said already answers your question.

Media are the same in the world, so stop pointing your finger to Xinhua while your media are doing the same.

right to protest…
if this is what you care about more than lives of innocent people (not what you have learned from your media) then look at my first post…no room to protest happens in every country! Not just China. Care about what is going on in your own backyard first and then LEARN THE FACT and then speak of others.

May 11, 2008 @ 6:05 am | Comment

snow, in answer to your question – yes I am too busy!

Sorry to be a disappointment. Hopefully richard will be able to give the blog a bit more TLC in the near-future.

As for the article itself, I think that it is rather flawed. For example, riots in Tibet and protests against Carrefour were not existing bad news that needed to be buried. It might have been much worse had they happened a few weeks before the Olympics, but it would have preferred they not happened at all.

On the matter of the relay, that was its idea. It isn’t a new one, but China wanted a big showy route that criss-crossed the world. That there were protests all over the place was again something China didn’t want, nor indeed did I think it really expected so much negative attention.

There is the great possibility that the opposition towards China in the last few months will increase, not drop off. And even if China doesn’t have too much trouble, the whole fiasco goes to show that a lot of countries in the world really do view China with suspicion. Even if their governments are more ready to work with Beijing, they need to face re-election so will not want to look too eager – Opposition parties may also waggle their fingers to play to the Forum.

The Olympics was, and still is, supposed to be China’s coming out party. As much as Beijing wants to garner more domestic support, it also wants to make the world like it. Because it’s seen how hard a job the US has of it when it doesn’t have global support – and China gets what it wants the easiest when it can get other states to do its work for it.

May 11, 2008 @ 6:07 am | Comment

@snow
here is some inside information for you:
Grace wang hired a lawyer before she went to the protest, after wide media coverage of her story, she applied for greencard for asylum and was granted one right away, her cousin who is pursuing a PhD. degree of Chemistry in Georgetown, did a similar thing during CNN protest and got his greencard right away.

she did spoke differently, not because of what she believes in, but the greencard.

Yes, the angry youth shouldn’t be that angry even what she did is considered despiteful by many Chinese, but without all the echoing and meganifying works done by the media like NYT, she woildn’t get what she wanted.

anyways, she is not worthy talking about here. Its better for her to later get a U.S. citizenship and speak for CIA against her birthcountry. at least this is what she is good at. You will see that coming.

May 11, 2008 @ 6:16 am | Comment

beautifully written stuard, allow me to quote you and change some words:
“Don’t the Western people wonder WHY they are being deprived information?”

I honestly believe that the majority are unwilling to face the challenge to their existing schemas that such a contemplation of new information would entail.

Thus, even if they suspect there is more to an issue than their governments are letting on, most Westerners are not prepared to seek out (or accept) additional input because the ensuing internal conflict is too much for them to deal with.

It’s so much simpler, and beautifully consistent with Western rhetoric, to label all alternative viewpoints as ‘socialism propaganda’, ‘violation of human rights’,

May 11, 2008 @ 6:25 am | Comment

Ah yes, the old rumor that anyone who disagrees with official policy is seeking a greencard. The logic is “they couldn’t possibly believe that!” Unfortunately, schnappie, while the Chinese embassy organizes trips and (I have heard rumors) even pays for participants at overseas pro-China marches, one should not project these facts onto those who disagree with the Chinese government, assuming that the “powers that be” in the US are somehow planting Grace Wangs in the otherwise “harmonious” CHinese community. This is the easiest way to dismiss and ignore a valid point.

May 11, 2008 @ 7:31 am | Comment

@schnappie

Media are the same in the world, so stop pointing your finger to Xinhua while your media are doing the same.

No, media is not the same in the world. In the run-up to the war to Iraq, and plenty of newspapers and media around the world express criticism. And you have no idea what “my” media is saying about China or any other country, so quit making assumptions.

if this is what you care about more than lives of innocent people (not what you have learned from your media) then look at my first post…

Yes, I care about innocent lives, both Han Chinese in Lhasa, or ethnic Tibetans being shot like game as they are trying leave China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU

no room to protest happens in every country! Not just China. Care about what is going on in your own backyard first and then LEARN THE FACT and then speak of others.

Yes, the latitude of what constitutes legitimate protest varies from country to country. But China is at the bottom of the list. And both you and me are freer as foreigners in the US, than either of us would be in China.

Grace wang hired a lawyer before she went to the protest, after wide media coverage of her story, she applied for greencard for asylum and was granted one right away

OK, I got it. Just wasting my time with another troll who likes to slander Grace W without a shred of evidence.

May 11, 2008 @ 7:49 am | Comment

@ kevin and amban
the rumor you hear and might choose to believe I heard too. howver you choose not to believe what the student protesters say: the organized this all by themsleves, out of their love for their country.
Yes, no matter how many times they reliterate, you stilll choose not to accept it. Same things with what you say about what you heard from the media. No matter what other alternative opininons are, you still believe:
1 China is a country with littel human rights
2 Tibet people are suffereing and dying because of Chinese government
3 Chinese people are totally controlled aas to what they think and believe

this reminds me of a funny line from Forbidden Kingdom, when Jacky Chan shook his head and say, “hopeless”. If you can continue hold your media and political view influenced by your governemnt dearly as the truth. You can continue to sympathize a nation of people you will never understand.

No matter how many facts I have listed out you all consider them as rumor, as bias, as lies told by the CCP.

Don’t you know it is precise because of common Westerners like you, make all the Chinese who are now living abroad love their country more, and make them want to love their people more, and support the CCP?

You have no idea how Chinese feel domestic and abroad feel right now about our own country. You will never understand why they have tears in their eyes when they see how hard the entire nation is trying to host this game and welcome all the people around the world, despite some of them are pointing fingers to, accusing their country.

What China is going through right now reminds me of Jesus’ last days in this world. Go ahead accuse China, and the Chinese government. For all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Looking back, no country, within 60 years since it is founded can grow like this. a country, a national governemnt has changed and improved tremendously comparing with some government who 60 years after the country was founded was still indifferent to the slaughterings of African slaves.
Oh, it’s ok. You will have another version of story that you can use to defend what you hold is truth…this debate can go on forever.

So save your breath and talk to the ones who nod along with you when you enjoy the news on CNN, talk to those who wave the “TGIE” flag when you see the rise of the middle kingdom.

All you have been saying, all that the media have been saying will only make Chinese stronger and more unified.

May 11, 2008 @ 8:28 am | Comment

OK, I got it. Just wasting my time with another troll who likes to slander Grace W without a shred of evidence.

how do you know that I have no evidence? or you prefer to think that I don’t?

amban, stay on the other side of the river and continue shout like this. I wish one day you could too, be able to sit down with our dear Grace Wang, and reminise what she had planned. Not sure if she will trust you, but she may use you as another advocate of her “official version” of her story.

May 11, 2008 @ 8:35 am | Comment

also, before you quote me and post a countergargument, read my post to richard et al first.

I feel I am wasting my time repeating myself over and over again to different people.

Be efficient and to the point people.

May 11, 2008 @ 8:37 am | Comment

amban,
“No, media is not the same in the world. In the run-up to the war to Iraq, and plenty of newspapers and media around the world express criticism. And you have no idea what “my” media is saying about China or any other country, so quit making assumptions.”

—ah, yeah, i know.
it so happens that reading and analyzing what your media are saying and trying to convey is my job and research focus. So quit making assumptions until you can do the same and able to read both sides of the story.

May 11, 2008 @ 8:41 am | Comment

@schnappie

Nice little rant there.

What China is going through right now reminds me of Jesus’ last days in this world. Go ahead accuse China, and the Chinese government. For all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

I’m speechless. Beijing 2008 propaganda isn’t exactly humble, is it?

how do you know that I have no evidence? or you prefer to think that I don’t?

Well, the burden of proof is on the person making the accusation. Don’t ask us to prove you wrong.

it so happens that reading and analyzing what your media are saying and trying to convey is my job and research focus.

So, besides from English, how many languages do you read?

May 11, 2008 @ 9:29 am | Comment

@amban,

now you switch to attack the person not the argument.
I was saying studying and analyzing what your media are saying is my job as to clash your argument that I dont know what the media are talking about and not making assumptions, but if you are particularly interested in what other languages I read even though it has little to do with the debate here, I read English, French, Spanish, Chinese and Japanese. This does not take language understanding to see both sides of the story, but culture is the key.

Therefore amban:

This is pointless, convince me with facts

May 11, 2008 @ 9:53 am | Comment

“Therefore amban:

This is pointless, convince me with facts”

Jia You! Jia You!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLSnZjLPor8&NR=1

May 11, 2008 @ 12:02 pm | Comment

@schnappie

This is pointless, convince me with facts

Well, you are the one making accusations about Grace Wang and saying that China is not different from the “West” when it comes to freedom of speech. The burden of proof is on you.

May 11, 2008 @ 12:15 pm | Comment

….. Mr. Zhang Ping, check it out, nomoreccp.wordpress.com
He lost his post at a magazine because he suggested that Chinese people might consider a few rationla points in the Tibet issue that he felt they maybe had overlooked …. After his firing, he wrote something really really impressive about how he feels ashamed to have been in the ledia position and not to have pushed the envelope more, and how some in his field would boast their propaganda skill, it made him uncomfortable. I guess human conscience still exists over their! (kidding, I think theres a lot of good guys (- :

About Grace Wang, I’ll get to the point here that it doesnt really prove any major point to say that Ms. Wang was corrupt and knew what would happen that day and was using it for her gain. The reason is because, even if sshe was plotting for greencard, HOW DID SHE KNOW THAT PEOPLE WOULD HATE ON HER CRAZY CULTURAL REVOLUTION STYLE? DID SHE PUT POO AT HER HOME? DID SHE REVOKE HER HIGHSCHOOL DIPLOMA AND ORDER UP EXTRA ROUNDS OF BRAINWASHING AT HER OLD SCHOOL TO MAKE SURE ALL CHINESE UNIFY TO HATE HER? So my point is, forget who Grace Wang is, who cares? The principle was never about whether or not she is a good person, the question is about how the ultranationals get freaky if someone doesnt join their commie mob…about how the CCP has created this culture of animosity and persecution, fanatic ignorance and all that kind of stuff, for me thats the real issue… No offense, please do not take this kind of discussion style personally, I know sometimes I’m sloppy and maybe arrogant… Please, I would like to hear from you I am not absolute and I am not against anyone at all.

Snap,

I feel like you think that China and the Communist party are the same thing… When party’s are that corrupt they are supposed to naturally be ousted (IMO)…Bu through their trickery, they are actually praised, even by you! It’s really hard to believe…

Some people might be racist eh, but anyway, the people who stand up for human rights,,, please do not think they have a racist agenda, it is in their culture to protest injustice, so thats the truth, people in the West do that, and all they want is to say to CCP ‘stop doing bad stuff’, because what happens in China matters to the world, so dont assume that people are conspiring to hate you, they are not, they want more openness and justice, cause that makes them happier…..

I’ll tell you upfront, I care about human rights and I promise you it has nothing to do with some political plot to be against China, no way, I wouldnt lower myself to be so crappy…Who would be against a country? (unless ALL the people are hopeless zombies…) The weird thing is though, that there are so many bad things about ‘China’ that it often seems that people are against China…Anyway.. You are right this could be talked about for long,

Glad to talk to you, I hope all people can communicate better and understand eachothers interesting perspectives.

Peace all,

snow (- :

May 11, 2008 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

schnappie,

I suggest you give up what you’re trying to do. It’s a lost cause, peopel like Amban, snow, BOB, and their sorts, they have a one-track mind. Nobody the things change in the world, they’ll forever be stuck in their way of thinkings.

People like you have tried to come to this board to preent alternative viewpoints or rationales, their response is the same over and over again. You won’t be the last to come on here to argue with them, but like others before you, you’ll eventually give up and just be a reader of this blog to kill boredom during working hours, and at best, occasionally chime in to join the circus.

May 11, 2008 @ 1:15 pm | Comment

“…peopel like Amban, snow, BOB, and their sorts, they have a one-track mind.”

Yes, I have a “one-track mind”, but it doesn’t have anything to do with CCTV—Hubba…Hubba….

Borat: “I couldn’t hear what this old man was saying. All I could think about was this lovely woman in her red water panties. Who was this C.J.?”

May 11, 2008 @ 1:23 pm | Comment

Borat: “Although Khazakstan is glorious country, it have many problems—economic, social and Jew.”

“Although China is glorious country, it have many problems—economic, social and foreigner.”

May 11, 2008 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

Middle Finger Kingdom,

You are very right here. I am beginning to take this as a means of entertainment now. There are people like them everywhere here. Why waste m time and energy to debate with them?

They are indeed one-rack-minded…and I don’t bear the responsibiliy to help them to think critically.

ciao kevin, bob, amban, snow and richard et al, go on with the China-bashing and enjoy your lives in your own little world.

May 11, 2008 @ 3:47 pm | Comment

Indeed, I am “one-rack-minded” (I have no breasts, but my mind is my “great rack”) and unable to absorb such insights as “What China is going through right now reminds me of Jesus’ last days in this world. Go ahead accuse China, and the Chinese government. For all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Poor China! At least you admitted that the idea of China is like a god to you. Do you start the day with a reading from the Xinhua Scriptures? Do you pray to the five-starred flag before you go to sleep?
As you oh-so-humbly portrayed yourself as so smart, however, I must admit that the IQ level at this site just dropped a little bit with your departure. Oh, oops, actually that was the People’s Daily headline! Turns out it actually rose! My bad.

May 11, 2008 @ 4:09 pm | Comment

@schnappie, MFK:

I don’t know about one-tracked mind; it seems to me that “China” is completely obsessed by the Olympics and the “dignity” of “China”, while the rest of the world have other problems to care about. The riots in Lhasa and the torch relay were brief blips on the screen, but these events have been magnified beyond proportion by Xinhua:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/

If you read this, you would think that what preoccupies the minds of everyone right now is China, China and China. That is why is it almost amusing to hear the schnappies going tangential with their obsession with China and the Olympics.

However, right now, the world press is busy covering the disaster in Burma/Myanmar and the problems the junta has in allowing humanitarian aid. It is very difficult to find any coverage of this event at Chinese news websites right now. I wonder why? And where are the righteous fenqing mobs? Obviously they are taking their cues from Big Brother and are shutting up…

May 11, 2008 @ 10:45 pm | Comment

@schnappie

It seems that you are annoyed that no one commented on your examples of political persecution in the US that you found on Wikipedia. Well, one problem is that the two legal cases you quoted are from 1919 and the rulings were modified by statutory law.

And yes, the red scare and the McCarthy era were horrible, but they were not mass movements whipped up against political opponents, like the cultural revolution.

You have to look to fascist Europe in the 1930s to see something that resembles the mass movements we have seen in China since the founding of the PRC. And if you asked people who joined the fascists then if they were indoctrinated or brainwashed, they would probably deny it. One thing we forget today is how popular fascism was, and that many people participated in fascist movements voluntarily. That doesn’t make it better, it makes it worse.

That is why the nationalist frenzy in China right now is so fundamentally disconcerting for many of us who have spent years learning Chinese and understanding Chinese culture. The more you talk about the unity of the Chinese government and the Chinese people, the more it looks like fascism to many of us. And when you invoke Biblical comparisons to illustrate China’s plight, well, what can I say?

May 11, 2008 @ 11:21 pm | Comment

Shnap,

I’ll just try to show you into my mind a bit, I understand it seems onesided or biased so I want to let you see where I am coming from, hopefully you will do the same for me. I am sick of not really knowing what Chinese people mean by bias, hurt feelings and all, so lets see whats underneath our respective bias…

Heres what I think, I’m not saying it is absolute truth, but that’s no tthe point right now, I just want to tell you my own way of understanding…

1. The CCP has killed and tortured a lot of Tibetans since it imposed itself on the region. It is engaged in thought reform campaign to make sure that China is unified in thought and is in love with the CCP. If the CCP perceives any ideological (thought) threat to absolute allegiance to the party, it gets heavy handed and threatens people, killing etc.

Have you researched this? Do you think I get this info from CNN and other pop media? I don’t.

2. I do not feel that the benefit of doing business in China is a counter argument for wanting to defend human rights. That I believe is something from the communist era. the idea that the end justifies the means and that people are basically worthless and they dont have human rights, they are basically just animals. Is it true that that is the modern Chinese understanding of people? This is not really acceptable to me because I think there are things much more spiritually significant and worthy than just cash and business. If when you say some people seem to have a one track mind, it is because we refuse to agree that at any point it is acceptable to brainwash, imprison and torture/murder innocent people for the “greater’ goal of sterility and thought zombiism, then you are right, I am one track in that sense, it’s called values, you know, when you have a spiritual respect for the value of people and their minds and hearts? Justice is another value I believe in (sorry for one track syndrome he he he) is justice in the old fashioned sense where you should not be subject to torture because you believe in God, of Buddha or own some property or sympathize with Tibetans. The CCP organizes the false justice system to protect itself from having to be responsible for it’s crimes, and that is the opposite of justice (the way I see it).

3. The way you describe the CCP (or was in China?) as humble and worthy of exaltation makes me wonder whats up with you because either you do not know of their track record for killing, lying, cannibalism, torture, brainwashing, mental torture, ect. Either you do not know (which makes me wonder how you think you can actually discuss CCP. OR, you know and you have excused the atrocities somehow, to the point where they party is HUMBLE? So that, you have to admit, is really weird…

4. You seem to be really fanatic about CCP, as in, one of those people who believe the slogan ‘without CCP there is no China’ that they teach you in the various institutions. But I dont think it’s true. There have been so many dynasties passed through the history and China has always been a strong culture, even without real borders. I know the party says that the party needs to be in power for such and such long time or else everything will go crazy, but thats crap if you ask me and they’re just saying that to con people. China will no cease to exist because CCP is not part of it. However, the culture has been altered so badly by the CCP that I dont even know if China, in the true sense even exists at all anymore. I mean, what does China mean to you? Borders and land? http://tinyurl.com/3j35cu ,
http://tinyurl.com/3gekor
That’s not really what China is about, they were not relying solely on force to guard borders before, they relied on cultural superiority to give China such a long cultural history. Anyway I need to study Chinese history better, but I do know that the CCP stuff is not in accordance with the Chinese ways, so how China will develop is hard to see, what I think would be great is if the people recovered some of their true cultural heritage and characteristics (under CCP it is not allowed)..

These are a few of my biased opinions. They are not so great, but I just wanted to share them so you can not be so shocked about some westerners’ opinions especially on human rights and justice…

May 12, 2008 @ 12:46 am | Comment

@snow

I think you are about to be accused to be a “self righteous” person snow ;-)

May 12, 2008 @ 2:44 pm | Comment

@snow

“Accussed to be a self righteous jerk” should be more precise ;-) )

May 12, 2008 @ 2:50 pm | Comment

“Although China is glorious country, it have many problems—economic, social and foreigner.”

I think it’s just because you’re a thin skinned theta-male who needs to get over his victim complex

May 12, 2008 @ 3:29 pm | Comment

@schnappie

You may find this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8A0rhVG91U

It is closer to my perception about last events with OG, media, Nationalism etc about CH

Tried to answer your posts. I find them interesting, but take some time to process them.

So if you are still around, will try to answer you. ;-)

May 12, 2008 @ 3:42 pm | Comment

@schnappie
“but take some time to process them.”

Besides I am in “lazy” mode lately…..

May 12, 2008 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

@schnappie

Damm! I botched the links. Sorry for that. Here is the correct link for my first answer to you

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/05/video-hung-huang-on-nationalism/

May 12, 2008 @ 4:08 pm | Comment

Yeah, I guess in China my believing that people have spiritual worthiness and that they are more than just eating working machines would have me labeled anti revolutionary, believing in feudal superstition, evil black class rightist or this or that…The CCP has had a lot of success in forming a culture against belief in values.

I don’t mind if I am criticized. I am not worried that my feelings will be hurt. There’s nothing wrong with having a discussion where you might be criticized, I think it’s part of nature and it’s a good thing because maybe you think you are right but someone can point to something you didn’t see…

If this was China though, the things I said would have me more than worried about having my feelings hurt by the mobs of commies, yeah, I would be accused of subverting state authority or undermining the communist party and would be totally messed up. The ubernationalists worry that people will have their feelings hurt be people standing for human rights, FEELINGS!! And are they at all worried about the dissidents being tortured to death? Do they ever think it might be bad that the whole country is under threat by CCP so as they dont say the wrong stuff? It makes no sense. It seems that their values are about being good propagandists for their propaganda motherland (sorry to insult the country, I do really like China in other context) Other than following the party line, what values do Chinese have these days? I know am again speaking from my personal bias towards human dignity and value, it’s a question of philosophy I guess and its all open for discussion.

Is Tibet issue a storm before the calm? I think that will depend on peoples standards they hold for the future, and level of ignorance. Apparently USA is subordinate state of China cause the states owes China so much money… Anyway,

good’ay all (- :

May 12, 2008 @ 9:52 pm | Comment

@schnappie

And something else also interesting

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

Written in 1922 by Bertrand Russell

May 12, 2008 @ 11:12 pm | Comment

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