Totally gone

In every way, as I again head for the airport. I’m afraid my schedule will bring the recent party over here to an end, but here’s another open thread in case anyone has something to say.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 65 Comments

“Share the Passion, Share the Dream”

“Row, Row, Row Your Boat…
Gently Down the Stream…
Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, Merrily…
Life Is But A DREAM….”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/education/29student.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

April 29, 2008 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

>You damn right we spit, piss and queue jump in Hong Kong like it’s any contiguous party of mainland China, what da fuck are u gonna do about it.

internettoughguy.jpg

>Starting in July, we’ll do that in Taiwan too.

O RLY? Enjoy your cancelled Olympics and/or WW3

April 29, 2008 @ 4:01 pm | Comment

Didn’t know nanheyangrouchuan and Peanut butter is the same person, but from the postings, figures.

April 29, 2008 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

“Peanut Butter,

Why you chose this nickname is far beyond my comprehension. ”

The feeling is mutual, “Middle Finger Kingdom” πŸ˜‰

April 29, 2008 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

Regarding the recent mob violence in Seoul…

I understand the “logic” behind their pursuit of extreme capitalism, the human rights abuses connected with dissident supression, the horrible gap between the rich and the poor, the urban and the rural side… even the “One China”, all-expasionist, all-assimilist thing toward minorities, and all. I understand how these things can be necessary evils in modern China, in their tireless run to become a Great Nation that shall “catch up with the US in some years” etc etc.

I also think it’s rather natural that such spectacles staged by Chinese “patriot” mobs these days around the torch relay would give distasteful impression to “westerners”, or people who’s lived in politically freer sides of the world. At times it’s reminiscent of some form of fascism madness, especially when mob violence is concerned. You love China, and it’s your home, so what? The behaviour of some of your people is at best immature, irrelevant of whether you love your home country or not. I love my home country too, and that’s why I would be embarrassed at displays of immature and fascist behaviours by some of my countrymen and women. Loving your home country and condoning/defending fascism is a different matter and I think more and more Chinese people will realise that sooner or later. At least I hope so.

April 29, 2008 @ 9:18 pm | Comment

In regards to the Seoul mobs,

Well, at least one Korean country got it right. The peaceful parade in Pyongyang must have been a breath of fresh air for the Chinese Government and the Olympic Committee.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/olympics-north-korea-china/

April 29, 2008 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

@CCT

Care to be more specific about the “disadvantage”?

I actually have been specific, if you care to read what I said. In most multi-lingual countries in Europe there are laws on the books that give you the right to government service in your native language. According to quite consistent reports, that is not something a native Tibetan can expect. Put yourself into the shoes of a Tibetan and imagine what that feels like.

What about Tibetan commenters who are well-educated in English?

Depends on when and how they learned English.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:22 pm | Comment

“””””””This might really blow ur head, but I seriously do that, despite some of their heineous failures, they really do have the interests of the Chinese people and China at heart. However misguided some of them and their policies are, I have faith they’ll always look out for China. And that to me, given China’s recent histories, says a lot to me.”””””””

THIS is what I dont understand. I fully admit my total lack of understanding on this front, unless the answer is brainwashing (which it probly is, no offense…)

Are Falun Gong people Chinese people? Are dissidents Chinese people? Does the CCP have the best intentions toward them? Don’t they only ease up their terror on people who will align their minds to the CCP supportive way? The Falun Gong people were not against the gov’t before the CCP went against them… Many dissidents and so called rightists did not hate the CCP, but the CCP just wanted to kill them to establish a terror complex and a mind allignment policy to rule over people and rape their spirits. Yeah, China has acheived breaneck development, but China has had happier times. One could say that historically China was sooo great and beautiful and kind, now what can we say? We can say fascist, totalitarian, terrorism, torture, persecution, pollution, repression, censorship, brainwashing, lying, corruption, moral bankruptcy, overinflated pride, irrational,

I’m not saying China is no good… But these characteristics should change… Replace those bad characteristics with good ones and China will be good.

Anyway this comment was meant more to be a question to people who think the CCP has good intentions.. I wondered if you can explain why you think that….My opinion is that they will do what they have to do to stay in power, they ARE afraid of the Chinese peoples wisdom, but good intentions? Far from it. thats my opinion….but I want to hear the other side……

April 29, 2008 @ 11:53 pm | Comment

@Amban,

According to quite consistent reports, that is not something a native Tibetan can expect. Put yourself into the shoes of a Tibetan and imagine what that feels like.

I’ll ask you again. Care to be specific? We have documentary proof from the BBC that Tibetan translators are provided for all legal cases in Tibet. What specific government services are denied to Tibetan-speakers?

….
As to the broader topic of Chinese protesters run amuck in South Korea, I frankly am not too surprised. I’ve never had a false perception of who the Chinese are as a people; we’re human beings, and as such, many of us are crass/rude and violent. If a disabled girl in a wheelchair was holding the snow lion flag in Beijing, I have no doubts she’d also be attacked.

I’m not proud of humanity’s failings, and I certainly wish the organizers had the foresight to plan for these contingencies. (But as someone who participated in the SF rally, I know the term “organizer” is very over-stated; a few people passed around times/places, and everyone just showed up.)

As far as the outrageous acts of rioters attacking police in a foreign country… pictures are worth a thousand words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl-gSKxCy2E

April 30, 2008 @ 2:40 am | Comment

@CCT

We have documentary proof from the BBC that Tibetan translators are provided for all legal cases in Tibet.

All? Please stop this make-believe. We have documentary proof that this case was heard in Mandarin without translators. The speaker said “All cases are heard in Mandarin Chinese. Translators are on hand, so in theory Tibetans should not be disadvantaged.” You would need more information to show that Tibetans are not disadvantaged by this arrangement. Let me also underline that this a civil case; it would be interesting to see how a criminal case with a Tibetan defendant would be heard. What about the monks who demonstrated in March 10?

The bottom line is: Since it is reasonable to assume that people are more likely to be wronged when their cases are heard in another language that your native language – especially if they do not know the majority language – the burden of proof is on those who argue that privileging Chinese is not disadvantageous to Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants.

April 30, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

@Amban,

The bottom line is: Since it is reasonable to assume that people are more likely to be wronged when their cases are heard in another language that your native language – especially if they do not know the majority language – the burden of proof is on those who argue that privileging Chinese is not disadvantageous to Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants.

Is this your way of admitting that you don’t have any actual evidence of government services being denied to Tibetans? If anecdotal evidence from the BBC that Han Chinese prefer Tibetan lawyers don’t convince you… how do you propose, pray tell, anyone provide scientific proof that Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants are not disadvantaged?

What sort of documentary proof should we be looking for? Do I need to be present for every Tibetan interaction with a government official in order to prove that it never happens?

For that matter, for American citizens in the United States who don’t speak English natively… how do you propose proving that the judicial system is not biased against them?

April 30, 2008 @ 6:12 am | Comment

@CTT

What sort of documentary proof should we be looking for?

I know that you feel very little empathy for the plight of Tibetans, but stop playing naive. If you want to check out, there are numerous NGO that have documented discrimination against Tibetans and the Tibetan language. Also, I hope you remember the comments from a Tibetan blogger quoted above, where he or she complained that TAR failed to provide government service in Tibetan.

And again, take a look at the official website of Qamdo Prefecture in Tibet, for instance. Where is the Tibetan language version? WHERE? If you were Tibetan you’d feel that this is a foreign government.

http://www.changdu.gov.cn/

If you think it is OK that the TAR neglects the Tibetan language, just go ahead and say it. But don’t pretend that you don’t know about it.

April 30, 2008 @ 6:25 am | Comment

@Amban,

You’re completely mistaken. The Tibetan blogger wasn’t complaining that government services aren’t available to Tibetans; he called for government services to *only* be in Tibetan. Do you understand the difference?

As far as “numerous NGOs”, why don’t you do the actual leg work and dig through what their *actual* accusations are? You might learn something.

By the way… the Dalai Lama with a Beijing 2008 flag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VnDzyA6j2I

The student who spoke with him mentioned that he held a press conference at Colgate for Chinese media exclusively, including reporters from Xinhua. It looks like he’s finally waking up and making the right moves.

Perhaps this is a major part of the reason Beijing is reaching out to him again. I hope it goes somewhere.

April 30, 2008 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

“the wishes of a Tibetan ” and comments from Tibetan people.

http://blog.tibet.cn/user1/23839/archives/2008/87992.html

August 28, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

β€œthe wishes of a Tibetan ” and comments from Tibetan people.

http://blog.tibet.cn/user1/23839/archives/2008/87992.html

August 28, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Comment

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment