Totally gone

In every way, as I again head for the airport. I’m afraid my schedule will bring the recent party over here to an end, but here’s another open thread in case anyone has something to say.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 65 Comments

Free-Tibeters be aware, the god of war is to protect the torch here

Go, my man, Guan Yu, Guan Yunchang, Go!

April 28, 2008 @ 2:07 pm | Comment

For the rest of Peng Guo’s Three Kingdoms comic, it starts here

April 28, 2008 @ 2:19 pm | Comment

RESPECT the torch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Oi3zUoFcA&feature=related

April 28, 2008 @ 3:42 pm | Comment

Some of my Chinese friends (I am currently living in China) are beginning to back off their stances on Carrefour especially since no evidence has been produced to support the claims of the protesters. One of my friends even admitted to me recently that “we just used Carrefour as a way to vent our anger and frustration.” It is sad because in the end, the Chinese people are hurting their own image when it is discovered that they are protesting over something that most likely didn’t even happen.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/why-chinese-patriotism-is-to-be-respected-and-feared/

April 28, 2008 @ 8:53 pm | Comment

The struggle against the Tibetan separatists and their Western supporters has become a cause celebre, an endeavor that transcends ideological differences and unites all Chinese people.

This noble cause may reshape the future of China lobby.

On the other hand, boycott against Carefour and the more recent issue in South Korea about North Korean defectors tend to divide people.

April 29, 2008 @ 12:01 am | Comment

Here in Shanghai the Carrefour protest didn’t seem to register much. I was hoping it might clear some of the crowds out of the local store, but there was no such luck. There’s a notice outside about how much Carrefour supports the Olympics, but no one seems to care…

In other news: horrible-looking train crash in Shandong. I hope all Peking Duckers are safe. (When I saw it on CCTV9 they made it very clear that this was NOT the work of terrorism but was instead human error. I was impressed.)

April 29, 2008 @ 12:20 am | Comment

It seems strange to me that the Torch has more
importance to many people in the name of China than the lives and welfare of many people in China, i.e., the peasants, the migrants, the people who are put in jail by the Chinese government for defying the government by speaking freely on subjects the government does not want to be publicly aired.

To those of you who demand all people bow to your claim that Tibet belongs to China, you need to clear you heads, go beyond your reactive emotions and look at the legal rights the Tibetans have to the land that they have occupied at least as long as there has been written history. Whatever claims you make that the Yuan and Qing dynasties had suzerainty over Tibetan people is a very curious as both Yuan and Qing were foreign invaders of China proper, i.e., the Han people and with the demise the each of those dynasties their exercise of the so-called suzerainty over Tibet collapsed. The Republic of China did not establish suzerainty or sovereignty over Tibet. It was only when New China used guns and invaded Tibet that effective control by the PRC was established.

It seems to me that the Han Chinese have been brained washed by their government and CCP to believe a clearly distorted story about Tibet to justify the PRC take over. Perhaps if the Han would stop and think a bit they would not get their noses in knots and then they could openly and objectively consider both sides of the story.

The Han should ask themselves if they would like to live in the circumstances the PRC has forced the Tibetans to live in. Of course, they and we know the answer to that question as the Han still resent the domination of China by Western countries (Japan) in the past two centuries.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:05 am | Comment

pete:
Here’s a simple question for you: Do you honestly think it is safe for a mainland Han Chinese person to stop and think? To start questioning the propaganda they’ve been fed by the CCP? To question their brainwashing?

There are mainland Han Chinese who do not believe the lines they’ve been fed. Who sympathise with the Tibetans. Who want more democracy and freedom for all the peoples of the PRC. I know some of those people, and trust me, when they talk about these things they whisper them to me, and they look around nervously over their shoulders.

Think about it: once you start questioning your government brainwashing, where does it end? Hu Jia can tell you – it ends in prison. (And that’s if you’re lucky.)

April 29, 2008 @ 1:48 am | Comment

dish is, as they used to say in the HOOD in the 1960s, “RIGHT ON!”

Take it from BOB: the more that you read intelligent books and start to think for yourself, the smaller your cell becomes as the walls start to close in.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:55 am | Comment

BOB: I’m not sure whether to say ‘thank you’ or ‘your approval fills me with shame’.

Oh well, trust me, that was a heartfelt rant above.

April 29, 2008 @ 2:15 am | Comment

Who make free Tibet flags?

Here is an interesting story from BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm

The separatists don’t make their own flags. They order them from China. The patriotic migrant workers in Guangdong have put a stop to this trade.

April 29, 2008 @ 3:08 am | Comment

So BoB, what do you wanna do about it (- : You seem smart, so I bet you can contribute to a rational feasible solution to this issue… It’s a huge issue, but it can help to have some objectives in mind…

Were we still talking about Tibet? I had a clue about this… Maybe Chinese person can see if it is correct…

China was not really a country like other frmulated countries isnt that right? I am not sure when China was determined… But before that it was hel together )and apart) by cultural dynasties and rulers clans, subjects and whatnot.. As the dynasties would shift, so would those parts of ‘China’ that were under the dynasty…

This makes sense with what I say a lot aout separation of states (China), and that is, adress the reasons why they want out. Seriously look at their complaints… As far as I see, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet those guys only want to have certain basic rights and what they ask for is not illigitimate nor criminal and what they want is good for Chinese people, not bad…So I think this CCP dynasty thing is really not able to win over those subjects, those subjects do not want to be under a king that lies in the so called media and hurts people so cruelly.

April 29, 2008 @ 3:38 am | Comment

Do you think the Taiwan political people could replace the CCP people and do things better.? As I said, I dont really care on the politics of China, I care about people and how thie lives are treated…

April 29, 2008 @ 3:40 am | Comment

Pete,

The Han should ask themselves if they would like to live in the circumstances the PRC has forced the Tibetans to live in.

You mean, a multi-national, multi-cultural country where by virtue of being Han Chinese, I wouldn’t have to pay income tax, be given favorable admission to university, and given various other favorable policies?

The only disadvantage is that to be successful I’d have to learn the language of the dominant majority (although I have the *option* to learn hanyu only), and I wouldn’t be allowed to carry images of a specific Han political/religious leader? (Say, Mao Zedong)

Sure, why not?

As far as the comparison to Japanese imperialism… I’ve said it before. If Japan gave me a fair shot as an equal citizen of the empire, and if Japan gave me the freedom to use my language if I so choose, and if Japan even made it an option for the Japanese Emperor to one day be replaced by a Han Chinese individual… I would’ve seen the Japanese invasion of China in the early 20th century in an entirely different light.

Let’s put it this way. Japan invading China (with 10x its population), and then constructing a “color-blind” society would’ve been another way of saying Japan is looking to reunify and become part of China… I’m fine with that.

April 29, 2008 @ 5:20 am | Comment

@snow,

I think your understanding of Chinese history is getting a little closer to the truth, although I think your sweeping generalizations of Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tibet might be a little too simple.

To answer your specific question:

Do you think the Taiwan political people could replace the CCP people and do things better.? As I said, I dont really care on the politics of China, I care about people and how thie lives are treated…

That’s actually a good question some people have pondered. There are mainland Chinese people at least half-seriously kicking around the idea of applying to become members of the KMT.

So, you’re not asking a crazy or silly question… even though it’s a question that can’t be answered, since it’s not likely to happen any time soon. But it’s a good way to understand how people think.

My personal opinion is…

I don’t think it would make sense to transport over Ma’s entire cabinet into Beijing and expect them to do a good job; they’re running an industrialized society of 23 million people, that doesn’t necessarily make them qualified to run a developing, poor society of 1.3 billion people.

But I would be supportive of *individual* Taiwanese politicians playing a key role in terms of improving/joining/reforming the Chinese political system. Many of these Taiwanese politicians are very bright, and well educated in the best of both Chinese and Western traditions. I’m sure (individually) they’d do an excellent job on the mainland.

April 29, 2008 @ 5:28 am | Comment

@CCT

You mean, a multi-national, multi-cultural country where by virtue of being Han Chinese, I wouldn’t have to pay income tax, be given favorable admission to university, and given various other favorable policies?

You know for a fact that this is not the whole picture. Stop pretending that you believe in that.

The only disadvantage is that to be successful I’d have to learn the language of the dominant majority (although I have the *option* to learn hanyu only), and I wouldn’t be allowed to carry images of a specific Han political/religious leader? (Say, Mao Zedong)

Well, if it was only material success that mattered, but sometimes it is a matter of being government service in your native language. And who is to say who is in a majority anyway? At least according to government statistics, Tibetans were in majority in Tibet and to talk about them as a minority is pretty insulting.

Or as a Tibetan blogger put it:

We hope that government organs in the Tibetan areas will use the Tibetan language. In most of the government organs in the Tibetan areas, the language used is Chinese, not Tibetan.

Not to grant government service in the language of the majority (=the Tibetans) is a fool-proof way of marginalizing a people.

To continue:

We hope that in the Tibetan areas, all tests will be given in Tibetan. For example: for civil service and government funded institutions [shiye danwei] etc. Presently most people in most Tibetan areas take examinations in Chinese. Therefore there is a severe unemployment problem among students who study Tibetan.

Yes another way of creating an underclass.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/

April 29, 2008 @ 5:56 am | Comment

@CCT

As far as the comparison to Japanese imperialism… I’ve said it before. If Japan gave me a fair shot as an equal citizen of the empire, and if Japan gave me the freedom to use my language if I so choose, and if Japan even made it an option for the Japanese Emperor to one day be replaced by a Han Chinese individual… I would’ve seen the Japanese invasion of China in the early 20th century in an entirely different light.

Well, you know very well that Japan did not annex the territories it occupied after 1937 and it did not outlaw the Chinese language as such. And Japan made sure that Chinese were in charge in the puppet government it set up. Didn’t make it less imperialist…

April 29, 2008 @ 5:59 am | Comment

@Amban,

I’ve never been to government offices in Lhasa, so I can’t state with personal authority that government services are available for those who only speak Tibetan. However, I have friends who have been to Lhasa, and they swear to me that it is available.

Do you know otherwise, first hand? Are you sure someone in Tibet can’t file a lawsuit, start a business, order phone service, or read government policies without any knowledge of hanyu only?

The “wishes of Tibetans” is absolutely fascinating. Some of them are policies I (and I think most mainland Chinese) would support, and some are not policies that I would support.

Interesting to note that Tibetans call for the declaration of a “common Tibetan dialect” that will be taught and used throughout Tibet. I’ve never heard of that raised before, but I can understand the logic of it. I’m in favor of it… although I wonder if the Dalai Lama (or you) condemn this form of “cultural genocide”, as well. (Or is the death of Khampas’ distinctive dialect not genocide, in your mind?)

April 29, 2008 @ 6:45 am | Comment

A Visit to Beijing’s Exclusive Penis Restaurant:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,549788,00.html

April 29, 2008 @ 6:46 am | Comment

@Amban,

Well, you know very well that Japan did not annex the territories it occupied after 1937 and it did not outlaw the Chinese language as such. And Japan made sure that Chinese were in charge in the puppet government it set up. Didn’t make it less imperialist…

Japan didn’t have a chance to annex the territory it occupied after 1937, nor do anything else but put a puppet government in Nanjing. Even the Japanese empire had limits to its ability to digest. Japan, at least, had no doubts that it didn’t want to absorb another 500 million “subjects” who weren’t in the least Japanese. Imperial subjects in Taiwan and Korea were just further along in the process.

On the other hand, if China’s goal was indeed to eliminate Tibetan language/culture from the surface of the earth… it wouldn’t have taken us 60 years to get around to it.

April 29, 2008 @ 6:51 am | Comment

@Amban,

Did you read this comment to the above blog?

作为一个藏族,这里面的很多我都支持,但是我认为在学习本民族语言文化的同时,也应该吸收其他民族优秀的文化。对于你所说的政府内部使用藏语以及成立全藏语班我不是很赞成,如果完全像你所说的那样,我们就会上演中国以前的β€œ闭关锁国”政策了。在国际化这个大背景下,这样的做法对我们藏族没有丝毫的好处。以上仅是我个人的看法!

Being Tibetan, I support a lot of the proposals in this post, although I believe that even as we study our own nationalities language, we should also absorb the best of the culture of other minorities.

In reference to your call that government departments use Tibetan internally, and the establishment of entirely Tibetan classes, I’m not totally in favor. If we go the direct as you request, then we’re going down the route of China’s historical path of a “sealed country”. In mind of the larger context of globalization, this approach offers zero advantage to our Tibetan people. This is just my personal opinion!

April 29, 2008 @ 6:56 am | Comment

Another interesting comment from the blog:

真的,大部分都说出了我们的心声,但愿政府能对此引起重视!
另,我还想补充一个: 希望藏族公务员和党员也能像普通藏人一样拥有信仰宗教及参与佛事活动的权利!!!

Really, the majority of what you’ve written has captured our hearts’ wishes, and I hope the government can pay attention to these issues!

I’d also like to add one more: I hope that Tibetan civil servants and Communist Party members can, like normal Tibetans, have the same right to participate in religious and lama-related activities!

April 29, 2008 @ 7:03 am | Comment

What a gold mine of excellent insights.

Re:一个藏族人的心愿
[ 2008-4-28 13:18:00 | By: 访客q7Lx50(游客) ]

访客q7Lx50(游客)仅对以下几点发表一些想法。。
2. 希望国家承认藏族寺庙教育的文凭。。觉得应该承认作为宗教专业方向的学位。。但是否对找工作或就业有利,应由市场因素来决定。就比如学了某个专业,并不代表你就可以100%在就业市场上成功。

From the petition: hope that the government will recognize religious degrees issued by monasteries.

Response: I believe we should recognize it as a religious degree… but whether this has value, whether it helps finding a job, this should be decided by the market economy. Just like selecting a major in college; it doesn’t guarantee you’ll succeed on the job market.

6. 希望藏区所有的政府机构里使用藏文. 应使用藏汉双语。藏区政府不但要为藏人服务,也要为住在葬区的其他民族人民服务。。政府拨款提供免费藏语课程让不会藏语的公务员学习藏语,同样也提供免费汉语课程让汉语不过关的藏族公务员提高汉语

From the petition: Hope that government branches in Tibetan areas will use Tibet.

Response: It should be joint Han/Tibetan. These government branches aren’t just serving Tibetans, but also people of other minorities in the same area. The government should provide free classes for public servants that don’t speak Tibetan, and Han classes for Tibetan servants that don’t speak Hanyu.

10. 希望藏区所有的考试都用藏文来考试. 同上,政府机构公务员应考藏汉双语,两者都要熟练运用。在藏区的其他公,私营单位使用那种语言文字作为交流工具由企业根据市场及经营需要来确定(比如说因做生意需要用英语做为公司内部主要沟通语言也未尝不可)

From the petition: hope that all tests in Tibetan areas will be conducted in Tibetan.

Response: Just as above, government branch public servants should be tested in both Han and Tibetan, and should be functionally fluent in both. In other private/public enterprises in Tibet, the language and communication tool used should be determined based on specific market and management needs. (Just like some companies must use English for internal communications, for business reasons.)

April 29, 2008 @ 7:21 am | Comment

@CCT

No, I haven’t been to Lhasa, but it is widely reported that as native Tibetan speaker you are at a serious disadvantage dealing with authorities if you don’t speak Chinese. I have been to Xinjiang and you didn’t have to be a genius to figure who who were in charge and what language mattered there. Although the Internet should be taken with a pinch of salt, if you browse on government websites from Xinjiang or Tibet, you find that Uighur and Tibetan content is hardly a priority in the PRC. So far, I haven’t been able to locate a single college in Xinjiang that has bothered to maintain a site in Uighur. In one word: these areas are run like colonies.

Before you faint in triumph after learning that some Tibetans have viewpoints similar to your own, I hope you are aware of the fact that these Tibetan commenters are well-educated in Chinese, and thus hardly representative.

On the other hand, if China’s goal was indeed to eliminate Tibetan language/culture from the surface of the earth… it wouldn’t have taken us 60 years to get around to it.

You are probably unaware of this, but this comment comes across as incredibly condescending. And I have heard a lot of comments in China that are much worse. And some of you guys complain about Westerners being patronizing!

April 29, 2008 @ 8:11 am | Comment

@CCT
@Amban

It’s true that in courts, Chinese are spoken. But the judges are all Tibetans and Tibetan interpreters would be provided if needed.

I know this because I watched BBC’ documentary
A Year In Tibet

This is the episode where the Tibetans goes to court to settle a dispute

April 29, 2008 @ 8:31 am | Comment

Above link to the court episode didn’t work, My bad.

This is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCnLIi9YA0

April 29, 2008 @ 8:33 am | Comment

It is disconcerting that the IOC’s President Jacques Rogge is blatantly supporting the Sino-French Clique campaign to split the motherland and discredit the empire. Quebec has always belonged to the english race. The sacred flame is an english flame. They have been aligning with China’s eastern media in a biased attack on the sovereignity of the British Commonwealth, and attempting to stir up trouble amongst Qeubocios minority people’s.

Do we really know what French Senate President Christian Poncelet discussed with Hu Jin Tao, I’m sure it had something to do with humilating the empire because of the 100 years war and the just desserts that heretic Jean D’arc received.

English must remain the official language of the olympics, not that bastardized canadian or american kind, but the King’s (or Queen) english like they have in the King James Bible.

April 29, 2008 @ 8:40 am | Comment

Snow,

“What to do about it?” you ask.

Tough, tough, tough question.

In a way, they’ve put us (or at least some of us) in an impossible situation. If they insist on using force to create a situation where there’s only one “correct” answer, then they’ve basically destroyed ethics since they’ve destroyed moral choice.

Dr King once said (or was it Gandhi?) that he could envision a world in which all the moral people were in prison.

It may be that at at the end of the day, the Christians are right: the purpose of life is to suffer. Maybe, no matter what happens there persons whose fate is to be nailed to the cross. If they create a world in which there’s only one “correct” answer, then there may be no other choice.

Having said that, if everyone refuses to cooperate (and here I mean merely very passive disobedience), then they lose control. Of course, it doesn’t help when the mob becomes an arm of the government. One would think that foreign countries would be concerned about having such a mob in their own countries and companies.

April 29, 2008 @ 10:04 am | Comment

People in mainland China have to end the protest and use the energy to improve the country. As far as suppression of the people by CCP, I think there’s no much corruption in China, that’s the only way people in positions could keep their jobs and everything they have, is to suppress and imprison those who want to tell the truth. So many people are corrupted.

April 29, 2008 @ 10:07 am | Comment

@CMD

It’s true that in courts, Chinese are spoken. But the judges are all Tibetans and Tibetan interpreters would be provided if needed.

I looked at the clip and I find no support for your statement. All I saw was a Han Chinese and a Tibetan discussing a case in Chinese. Did I miss something?

Here is the official website for TAR:

http://www.xizang.gov.cn/index.do

Where do a user find information about how to file lawsuits in both Chinese and Tibetan?

April 29, 2008 @ 10:09 am | Comment

There is so much corruption in China that’s why there is so much suppression to stop people from telling the truth.

April 29, 2008 @ 10:11 am | Comment

Am I the only one who thinks there is a HUGE HUGE world economic depression coming, followed by a World War? One that will make the ’30s look like walk in the park in comparison… Any takers?

Word food shortage… Housing boom… Massive inflation everywhere… This is not the future. It is already here. And it is going to get worse.

It will actually be easier in Asia, I think. This is where positive change has to come from. Unfortunately, it is just as likely that we are in for something very bad. I feel it. Very, very bad. Anyway, I guess I will be living in the eye of the storm, as I am going back to Taiwan.

North America is about to be hit very bad. Really dreadful. Good luck, everybody.

April 29, 2008 @ 10:18 am | Comment

Thoth,

Something “really dreadful” is about to happen?

It already has.

Either there’ll be some kind of dreadful societal breakdown such as mass starvation, etc (which we’ll be oblivious to), or because of the worldwide corruption we’ll metamorphose into some kind of capitalist totalitarianism.

But, if the latter, things might still come unglued because of the corruption.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:12 am | Comment

glad to actually know that the institutioning of the KMT idea might be taking hold on more and more people. As I’ve said before, it’s a great idea for the CCP to hold onto power and save face at the same time, a win-win situation. The Dems will of course be the KMT, and the Reps will be the CCP. Shit, they’ve already got the right colors for the party.

Snow, I know how much you love freedom and all, another thing you might need to think about is that, the reason that the CCP and it’s bunch of corrupt officials are dragging this democratic reformation in China is that they need time to legitimize their ill-gotten gains. You need to understand that their end game is protect their wealth and money when the time comes for Democracy in China. By then, they’ll be like, democracy? sure, as long as my millions are protected under the tenets of the China’s bill of rights.

At the end, China will be like the US, but won’t resort to military means to conquer the world, their words and tactics are their weapons of choice.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:12 am | Comment

The third KMT-CCP Alliance?

Sounds like a feasible idea. For this to work, they need a common enemy. The first time they had the warlords, the second time the Japanese. This time they may use the DPP, and the other separatists?

April 29, 2008 @ 11:28 am | Comment

Serve the People,

Well, I guess you can argue it as an alliance between the KMT-CCP, but I’m arguing more of a dual political system, like that in the US.

And like the US in the old days, I guess the elites from both parties will make arrangements under the table, but on the outside they’ll argue for their political platfrom.

Imagine the nomination plank of the CCP: rural development, reign in capitalism excess; the KMT plank: more social progress, more freedom of speech, etc….

This way, the West, the chinese people, the Tibetans and Snow will all be happy.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:42 am | Comment

>the reason that the CCP and it’s bunch of corrupt officials are dragging this democratic reformation in China is that they need time to legitimize their ill-gotten gains. You need to understand that their end game is protect their wealth and money when the time comes for Democracy in China. By then, they’ll be like, democracy? sure, as long as my millions are protected under the tenets of the China’s bill of rights.

Unless you are a member of the CCP yourself, MFK, I can’t think for the life of me why you support the CCP, if this is really what you think of them.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:53 am | Comment

I can’t believe people are still talking about what a Taiwan government might do on the mainland, or the absurd notion of another KMT-CCP alliance.

I’ve had very close contact with Taiwan for over 25 years, including living there two years and visiting monthy for about 10 years.

In all that time, among the thousands of people I met, and the hundreds with whom I discussed politics and mainland affairs (in English and Guoyu), not one person on that island ever, in any way expressed any interest whatsoever in (a) Taiwan playing a role in the mainland, or (b) the mainland playing a role in Taiwan.

Never.
No kind or role whatsoever.

.

Instead, the message was “China, leave us alone.”

April 29, 2008 @ 11:58 am | Comment

@Amban

That segment is the beginning of episode 3 of “A year in Tibet”.
i thought you would continue to watch the rest of the episode where the case is being resolved.

For the actual court proceedings see this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOIrfzj52M&feature=related

above is the second segment of episode 3

April 29, 2008 @ 12:15 pm | Comment

@DOR

The idea of the Third KMT-CCP alliance was absurd in the past decades. But times change.

I spent one semester at the National Taiwan University last year and was amazed to hear how much the kids wanted to live and work on the Mainland after graduation.

If you look at the rapidly developing relationships between KMT and CCP, everything is possible.

You just have to be optimist when it comes to these things. Thirty years ago people never thought Hong Kong economy would depend on the mainland tourists and the Macao casinos would serve the mainland gamblers. But look at these places now…

April 29, 2008 @ 12:55 pm | Comment

You mean, a multi-national, multi-cultural country where by virtue of being Han Chinese, I wouldn’t have to pay income tax, be given favorable admission to university, and given various other favorable policies?

Sure, why not?

I guess it’s not a coincidence that the longest-lived colony on Chinese soil was also a low-tax free market paradise.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

I think the inflation has a lot to do with dollars dropping, and with part of the food supplies going into making ethanol, until there’s sound regulations(not overly done control), the prices will go, but the thing is there’s no shortage of food, but the prices going up, the economic big picture is changing.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:21 pm | Comment

Anyone notice the red guard mob violence in Seoul the other day? Pictures of Chinese ultra-nationalists kicking some old man in the back (and kicking him when he was down) are all over the internet. The Koreans are justifiably going ballistic:

http://tinyurl.com/6ayqne

http://tinyurl.com/5fdwno

http://tinyurl.com/5hwq2u

April 29, 2008 @ 2:10 pm | Comment

“I know this because I watched BBC’ documentary” – CMD

Very touching that your faith in BBC reporting has been rekindled.

April 29, 2008 @ 2:20 pm | Comment

Peanut Butter,

Why you chose this nickname is far beyond my comprehension.

I don’t support the CCP, and I despise the CCP as much as you do, however, I must also acknowledge that they have done a lot good for China and its people.

This might really blow ur head, but I seriously do that, despite some of their heineous failures, they really do have the interests of the Chinese people and China at heart. However misguided some of them and their policies are, I have faith they’ll always look out for China. And that to me, given China’s recent histories, says a lot to me.

April 29, 2008 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

@Amban,

No, I haven’t been to Lhasa, but it is widely reported that as native Tibetan speaker you are at a serious disadvantage dealing with authorities if you don’t speak Chinese.

Care to be more specific about the “disadvantage”? We have BBC documentary covering a court case. What are the disadvantages when you don’t speak Chinese in “dealing with the authorities”? Why did the BBC documentary allege that the Han Chinese plaintiff decided to use a Tibetan lawyer, in hopes of impressing the Tibetan judge?

I hope you are aware of the fact that these Tibetan commenters are well-educated in Chinese, and thus hardly representative.

Ok, fair enough. What about Tibetan commenters who are well-educated in English? Are they more representative?

April 29, 2008 @ 2:51 pm | Comment

DOR,

I think you’re missing the point, and I’ll try to spell it out more clearly.

The CCP knows that in the future they might not be the only political party in China, and that they might have to share powre with another party. If that’s the case, why not share it with your “brothers’ – the KMT.

Think of it as a good cop-bad cop show, like the one they have in the US between the Dems and Reps.

The KMT will be another political party in China that the CCP can deal and share power with. But behind the scenes, they’re in bed to together, but just advancing different prioriities and policies in China. Again, like in the US, when the Reps are in power, they shit all over the world and rob the US treasury banks to enrich their masters and constituents, then the Dems come in power, they’ll clean up the mess while at the same time enriching their consituents and masters. They keep rotating power, but in the end it’s only between these two parties.

Having a KMT party in China doesnt mean that Taiwanese people are trying to run China. Taiwanese are noting buy any other Chinese citizens, they’re totally irrelevant in this political power structuring.

By doing it this way, the CCP can hold onto power yet save face. And throught this structure, China, or the CCP, will de facto rule Taiwan.

April 29, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

“Thirty years ago people never thought Hong Kong economy would depend on the mainland tourists and the Macao casinos would serve the mainland gamblers. But look at these places now…”

Thirty years ago, and 12 years ago, HK didn’t need China, it was a world class city and an economic and logistical center. Beijing got it hooked on mainland tourism, along with spitting, public urination and queue jumping.

April 29, 2008 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

nanheyangrouchuan

You damn right we spit, piss and queue jump in Hong Kong like it’s any contiguous party of mainland China, what da fuck are u gonna do about it.

Starting in July, we’ll do that in Taiwan too.

April 29, 2008 @ 3:07 pm | Comment

Just heard that the Chinese author Bo Yang died. He’s the one who wrote “The Ugly Chinese”. I guess he must have been watching the TV news fromSeoul last night and seen his prediction come true.

April 29, 2008 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

“Share the Passion, Share the Dream”

“Row, Row, Row Your Boat…
Gently Down the Stream…
Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, Merrily…
Life Is But A DREAM….”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/education/29student.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

April 29, 2008 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

>You damn right we spit, piss and queue jump in Hong Kong like it’s any contiguous party of mainland China, what da fuck are u gonna do about it.

internettoughguy.jpg

>Starting in July, we’ll do that in Taiwan too.

O RLY? Enjoy your cancelled Olympics and/or WW3

April 29, 2008 @ 4:01 pm | Comment

Didn’t know nanheyangrouchuan and Peanut butter is the same person, but from the postings, figures.

April 29, 2008 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

“Peanut Butter,

Why you chose this nickname is far beyond my comprehension. ”

The feeling is mutual, “Middle Finger Kingdom” ;)

April 29, 2008 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

Regarding the recent mob violence in Seoul…

I understand the “logic” behind their pursuit of extreme capitalism, the human rights abuses connected with dissident supression, the horrible gap between the rich and the poor, the urban and the rural side… even the “One China”, all-expasionist, all-assimilist thing toward minorities, and all. I understand how these things can be necessary evils in modern China, in their tireless run to become a Great Nation that shall “catch up with the US in some years” etc etc.

I also think it’s rather natural that such spectacles staged by Chinese “patriot” mobs these days around the torch relay would give distasteful impression to “westerners”, or people who’s lived in politically freer sides of the world. At times it’s reminiscent of some form of fascism madness, especially when mob violence is concerned. You love China, and it’s your home, so what? The behaviour of some of your people is at best immature, irrelevant of whether you love your home country or not. I love my home country too, and that’s why I would be embarrassed at displays of immature and fascist behaviours by some of my countrymen and women. Loving your home country and condoning/defending fascism is a different matter and I think more and more Chinese people will realise that sooner or later. At least I hope so.

April 29, 2008 @ 9:18 pm | Comment

In regards to the Seoul mobs,

Well, at least one Korean country got it right. The peaceful parade in Pyongyang must have been a breath of fresh air for the Chinese Government and the Olympic Committee.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/olympics-north-korea-china/

April 29, 2008 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

@CCT

Care to be more specific about the “disadvantage”?

I actually have been specific, if you care to read what I said. In most multi-lingual countries in Europe there are laws on the books that give you the right to government service in your native language. According to quite consistent reports, that is not something a native Tibetan can expect. Put yourself into the shoes of a Tibetan and imagine what that feels like.

What about Tibetan commenters who are well-educated in English?

Depends on when and how they learned English.

April 29, 2008 @ 11:22 pm | Comment

“”"”"”"This might really blow ur head, but I seriously do that, despite some of their heineous failures, they really do have the interests of the Chinese people and China at heart. However misguided some of them and their policies are, I have faith they’ll always look out for China. And that to me, given China’s recent histories, says a lot to me.”"”"”"”

THIS is what I dont understand. I fully admit my total lack of understanding on this front, unless the answer is brainwashing (which it probly is, no offense…)

Are Falun Gong people Chinese people? Are dissidents Chinese people? Does the CCP have the best intentions toward them? Don’t they only ease up their terror on people who will align their minds to the CCP supportive way? The Falun Gong people were not against the gov’t before the CCP went against them… Many dissidents and so called rightists did not hate the CCP, but the CCP just wanted to kill them to establish a terror complex and a mind allignment policy to rule over people and rape their spirits. Yeah, China has acheived breaneck development, but China has had happier times. One could say that historically China was sooo great and beautiful and kind, now what can we say? We can say fascist, totalitarian, terrorism, torture, persecution, pollution, repression, censorship, brainwashing, lying, corruption, moral bankruptcy, overinflated pride, irrational,

I’m not saying China is no good… But these characteristics should change… Replace those bad characteristics with good ones and China will be good.

Anyway this comment was meant more to be a question to people who think the CCP has good intentions.. I wondered if you can explain why you think that….My opinion is that they will do what they have to do to stay in power, they ARE afraid of the Chinese peoples wisdom, but good intentions? Far from it. thats my opinion….but I want to hear the other side……

April 29, 2008 @ 11:53 pm | Comment

@Amban,

According to quite consistent reports, that is not something a native Tibetan can expect. Put yourself into the shoes of a Tibetan and imagine what that feels like.

I’ll ask you again. Care to be specific? We have documentary proof from the BBC that Tibetan translators are provided for all legal cases in Tibet. What specific government services are denied to Tibetan-speakers?

….
As to the broader topic of Chinese protesters run amuck in South Korea, I frankly am not too surprised. I’ve never had a false perception of who the Chinese are as a people; we’re human beings, and as such, many of us are crass/rude and violent. If a disabled girl in a wheelchair was holding the snow lion flag in Beijing, I have no doubts she’d also be attacked.

I’m not proud of humanity’s failings, and I certainly wish the organizers had the foresight to plan for these contingencies. (But as someone who participated in the SF rally, I know the term “organizer” is very over-stated; a few people passed around times/places, and everyone just showed up.)

As far as the outrageous acts of rioters attacking police in a foreign country… pictures are worth a thousand words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl-gSKxCy2E

April 30, 2008 @ 2:40 am | Comment

@CCT

We have documentary proof from the BBC that Tibetan translators are provided for all legal cases in Tibet.

All? Please stop this make-believe. We have documentary proof that this case was heard in Mandarin without translators. The speaker said “All cases are heard in Mandarin Chinese. Translators are on hand, so in theory Tibetans should not be disadvantaged.” You would need more information to show that Tibetans are not disadvantaged by this arrangement. Let me also underline that this a civil case; it would be interesting to see how a criminal case with a Tibetan defendant would be heard. What about the monks who demonstrated in March 10?

The bottom line is: Since it is reasonable to assume that people are more likely to be wronged when their cases are heard in another language that your native language – especially if they do not know the majority language – the burden of proof is on those who argue that privileging Chinese is not disadvantageous to Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants.

April 30, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

@Amban,

The bottom line is: Since it is reasonable to assume that people are more likely to be wronged when their cases are heard in another language that your native language – especially if they do not know the majority language – the burden of proof is on those who argue that privileging Chinese is not disadvantageous to Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants.

Is this your way of admitting that you don’t have any actual evidence of government services being denied to Tibetans? If anecdotal evidence from the BBC that Han Chinese prefer Tibetan lawyers don’t convince you… how do you propose, pray tell, anyone provide scientific proof that Tibetan plaintiffs and defendants are not disadvantaged?

What sort of documentary proof should we be looking for? Do I need to be present for every Tibetan interaction with a government official in order to prove that it never happens?

For that matter, for American citizens in the United States who don’t speak English natively… how do you propose proving that the judicial system is not biased against them?

April 30, 2008 @ 6:12 am | Comment

@CTT

What sort of documentary proof should we be looking for?

I know that you feel very little empathy for the plight of Tibetans, but stop playing naive. If you want to check out, there are numerous NGO that have documented discrimination against Tibetans and the Tibetan language. Also, I hope you remember the comments from a Tibetan blogger quoted above, where he or she complained that TAR failed to provide government service in Tibetan.

And again, take a look at the official website of Qamdo Prefecture in Tibet, for instance. Where is the Tibetan language version? WHERE? If you were Tibetan you’d feel that this is a foreign government.

http://www.changdu.gov.cn/

If you think it is OK that the TAR neglects the Tibetan language, just go ahead and say it. But don’t pretend that you don’t know about it.

April 30, 2008 @ 6:25 am | Comment

@Amban,

You’re completely mistaken. The Tibetan blogger wasn’t complaining that government services aren’t available to Tibetans; he called for government services to *only* be in Tibetan. Do you understand the difference?

As far as “numerous NGOs”, why don’t you do the actual leg work and dig through what their *actual* accusations are? You might learn something.

By the way… the Dalai Lama with a Beijing 2008 flag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VnDzyA6j2I

The student who spoke with him mentioned that he held a press conference at Colgate for Chinese media exclusively, including reporters from Xinhua. It looks like he’s finally waking up and making the right moves.

Perhaps this is a major part of the reason Beijing is reaching out to him again. I hope it goes somewhere.

April 30, 2008 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

“the wishes of a Tibetan ” and comments from Tibetan people.

http://blog.tibet.cn/user1/23839/archives/2008/87992.html

August 28, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

β€œthe wishes of a Tibetan ” and comments from Tibetan people.

http://blog.tibet.cn/user1/23839/archives/2008/87992.html

August 28, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Comment

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