Flying

Radio silence for the next few days as I travel, except for a possible guest post or two. Discuss what you’d like.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 367 Comments

In today’s FT. Spot on.

Those that will suffer the worst damage to their reputations over the relay are not the [pro-Tibet] demonstrators but the two groups most closely associated with the 2008 Olympics: the Chinese, and the multinational companies with interests in China.

China’s refusal even to debate Tibetan grievances and its outraged response to legitimate protests abroad have damaged the China brand. Many foreigners have been shocked by the intolerance and visceral nationalism expressed by the Chinese people at home and (in the case of students) overseas.

http://tinyurl.com/4xgy9z

April 23, 2008 @ 11:33 pm | Comment

Discuss the following:

“…totalitarian movements conjure up a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations. The force possessed by totalitarian propoganda…lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world.”

The central fiction of totalitarian propoganda—-the Int’l Conspiracy.

(Source: “The Origins of Totalitarianism”, p. 353.)

April 23, 2008 @ 11:40 pm | Comment

I plan to channel my fervour so that my patriotic zeal will be “transformed into concrete actions to do one’s own work well” by buying a brand new Chiarman Mao watch and a small red flag that I can wave proudly and politely .

April 24, 2008 @ 12:15 am | Comment

I wonder how well the western media in general and CNN in particular are doing after this. Their brand is now damaged beyond repair for vast majority of Chinese.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:31 am | Comment

My contribution today… Tibetan Buddhists protesting the Dalai Lama due to the lack of religious freedom in exile.

http://www.uticaod.com/homepage/x170774178

The reason we are protesting now after desisting for 10 years is that the Dalai Lama has recently expelled 900 monks from there monastaries, forcing them to choose a red stick or yellow stick in front of all their peers. The red stick means I choose Dorje Shugdan. Thus they revoke their Tibetan identity card and cannot even buy food at shops. The yellow stick means you agree to not practice this protector and agree to not help any Shugdan practitioner or face the same consequences. 900 monks have recently been expelled from their monasteries for this very reason on Jan. 8 of this year. This has been reported in Indian newspapers. Look on the Western Shugdan Society website for these references.

Secondly, the Dalai Lama has publicly stated he intends to label all Dorje Shugdan practitioners as a non-Buddhist fringe-group. This would harm us and indirectly all living beings because our intention, as is all Mahayana Buddhists, is to become Buddhas for the sake of all. This is why we protest now – this is why the change of heart.

If the Dalai Lama lifts the ban, we stop protesting. What does he have to loose. The official state protector of Tibetan is a spirit called Nechung who the great Buddhist master Padmasambava subdued when he was in Tibet. Nechung has been fatally wrong on many occaisions. He is not a Buddha. Dorje Shugdan is. If this is not politically motivated, why doesn’t the Dalai Lama have compassion for his people and lift the ban?

This is why the strong language “Dalai Lama stop lying!” and so forth. He is allowing politics to corrupt his spirtual path and destroying the spirtual lives of millions of Tibetans. That is what we feel. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however. Investigate for yourself.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:32 am | Comment

Wow, I’ve been following the Dorje Shugden protests for years. I don’t think I ever heard them said it this bluntly: “Dalai Lama stop lying!”

It’s usually more like “Hear our plea, Your Holiness” or “Have mercy on us”!

It seems they are getting more pissed by the day. My flatmate is a Dorje Shugden worshiper and he says they have a protest planned in New York waiting for him.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:48 am | Comment

FT is after Wall Street Journals my favorite daily morning read. It contains fairly solid journalism. Its editorial section is however only just marginally better than that of Wall Street Journal. Sometimes I would read it for laugh and giggles.

Opinions of these stuffy, not so bright, old British gentlemen never fail to crack me up.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:53 am | Comment

Same image, two different perspectives.

The Financial Times, speaking from the Western perspective, will insist that this has subsequently damaged the China brand.

I just read the transcript of an interview conducted by the “Voice of Germany”, a German government-funded radio operation similar to the Voice of America. The person interviewed was a Beida professor in the German studies program, someone who helped arrange a recent lecture given by a senior German politician at Beida. And he talked about, from his perspective as a long-time supporter of Western values, how the events of the last two months have dramatically disillusioned him (and the Chinese intellectual class in general) towards the West.

So, the bottom line on which we can all agree: these events have forcefully and dramatically separated China and the West on numerous dimensions.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:56 am | Comment

@CCT
You’re just hell bent on shaking us of our romance with the Dalai Lama aren’t you?

@All PRC Patriots who Might Read this and Feel Inclined to Respond
Somthing occurred to me walking home yesterday. If all ‘Western Media’ is now scorned, where are you guys getting your information about current global events? Back to Xinhua?

April 24, 2008 @ 1:04 am | Comment

“Somthing occurred to me walking home yesterday. If all ‘Western Media’ is now scorned, where are you guys getting your information about current global events?”

I’m not a Chinese patriot but I’ll say something.

I usually read from both sides. You should do it too, it’s entertaining to see how they go out of their way to misquote each other.

Moreover, I have long said that Western *mainstream* media is crooked. Not every Western news agency is corrupt, propaganda-spreading means of indoctrination. WSWS.org is a good example of a less biased source.

And then I also read from a few radical leftist sources that are not for the faint-hearted.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:12 am | Comment

I hear a lot of this concept that this whole controversy of the last months has led to the Chinese people losing trust of Western media and things like that… But I just find that although there are definitely economic ties with the CCp and gevernemnts around the world, there is not really any other relationship to speak of… Even economically the Chinese market is prety tight and it’s not like CNN was making some big profit from Chinese people before this stuff happened. So what have Westerners to loose from this so called loss of trust from Chinese people?

As I see it, this was already set up to happen just as it did. The people at CNN and many Western folks already have their opinions about human rights in China and they are lazy and dont do a good job at fact checking, especially when it really matters. The Chinese people were already supressed and full of hot air.. All of this had to happen as it did because all the circumstances were already in place for it to happen.

Personally I think this happened and the result is that people will have to learn from it… I think the Chinese people will have to learn information that they are not currently willing or allowed to look into , and Western people should learn to care about things more… Thats only some suggestions but, whatever, this is allll good, I am so glad this happened because finally there is dialogue, finally the Chinese people can look at themselves from a different persprective and Westerners can know whats really up in the East.

The Grace Wang thing had to happen, it is a serious phenomena…..

April 24, 2008 @ 1:20 am | Comment

@Lime,

Haha, did I also mention that senior monks in the Dalai Lama’s theocracy were largely pederasts…? No idea if the Dalai Lama has ever had a boy-toy or not.

As far as where I get the truth from… I still read the Western press. I’m still confident in the Western media’s basic journalist principals. I think they’re biased, but not actually liars, and not controlled by some global anti-China conspiracy. You just have to read for the facts and not the interpretation. In fact, I read the Western press far more than I read the People’s Daily or Xinhua.

In the Chinese world… I don’t think there’s an easy way for me to convey to you how “connected” the Chinese internet world is these days. It’s similar to the blogosphere in the Western world…. but in my opinion, just more connected. “Interesting” articles, editorials, and essays are relayed through the Chinese internet world at fierce speed.

As someone who has feet in both worlds, I struggle to explain the difference. I just know that it exists.

Let me just give you an example. At many Chinese forums, you have to explicitly select whether you’re posting yuanchuang (original content) or zhuantie (re-directed content) before creating a new topic. In any Chinese forum, zhuantie probably make up 50% of the topics or threads.

As far as where the yuanchuang content is coming from… everywhere. The ultra-right comes from Boxun; the ultra-left comes from Xinhua; the insightful comes from other bloggers left and right. I have read first-person eyewitness reports from Lhasa 3.14, Paris, London, San Francisco, Argentina, Toronto, Seattle, Minnesota literally minutes/hours after the rallies happened.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:28 am | Comment

“The Grace Wang thing had to happen, it is a serious phenomena…..”

You should be happy for her. She’s been made into another Wang Dan/Wei Jingsheng by the media.

Her future is secure…Probably will be working a high-paying job for Radio Free Asia or something like that.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:30 am | Comment

@Lime

Wall Street Journal and FT, minus the editorial section. WSJ has hands down the best reporting on China. I never had issues with them.

The rest of print media are just senseless criminal enterprise against trees.

Then there is internet.

Google finance takes care of the financial news

For other China issues I turn to China blogsphere:

ESNW, Chinalawblog, this website.

For Analysis:
China Matters, pretty much everything else linked from Chinalawblog’s website

For Opinions:
Mutant Palm

For Fun
Opposite End of China,

For Western media watch:

China Rises

Richard Spencer

April 24, 2008 @ 1:32 am | Comment

@snow,

Well, we largely agree on the conclusion of your message. I think much of this *had* to happen; there were a ton of misconceptions building on both sides, and an earthquake was needed to shift everyone’s perception back into place.

The Financial Times (and many others) talk about how shocked it is at Chinese nationalism. It’s always been there, and it’s always been a hugely relevant force in China. I’m glad the West knows about it.

The Chinese talk about how shocked it is at Western bias towards, and general dislike of “China” in its current form. Frankly, everyone on this blog knows that’s always been there as well, and is a hugely relevant force overseas. So, I’m glad the Chinese knows about it.

As far as what the *consequences* of this might be… China will be a democracy (of some kind), eventually. The Communist Party won’t be here to act as “guiding hand”, pushing people in line so that they don’t rock the boat too much. The West and the Chinese will have to deal with each other directly. If we build up too much latent dislike, that relationship will be painful for everyone.

Think about Russia’s evolution, for example. It’s a democracy now, right? The West should be content and the world a better place, right? And yet tensions between Western Europe, the former CIS states, and Russia remains very, very high.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:33 am | Comment

CCT,

“These events have forcefully and dramatically separated China and the West on numerous dimensions”.

Well, except for the most obvious one: hopelessly entangled business interests. It is in this dimension that Chinese anger towards the “West” would be most valid, in my opinion, as opposed to the outcry over some protesters wrestling for the torch.

As much discussion and mulling over the economic rise of China as their has been in the anglophone public sphere, it is also apparent on the flipside of the coin that “Western” interests have played the place for fools, having managed to outsource all manners of nefarious production and environmental destruction to make it “China’s problem”. For a country with such serious energy, water and resource constraints, what the heck is it doing building the hell out of a power, water and pollution-intensive heavy industry? This just confounds me, but makes low-cost obsessed (and ethically indifferent) Western business mighty happy.

Pollute the hell out of your land, smog up the sky, waste your water and then send me the product. And I’ll give you…some worthless paper.

I know I always nag on the environmental side of things (I can’t help it, I work in environmental finance), but I just don’t see how, long-term, China is getting such a good deal out of this. One of its main competitive ‘advantages’ (if you can call it that) continues to be cavalier disregard for environmental consequences, and I really hope that somewhere deep in Zhongnanhai somebody is thinking this whole thing through and trying to jam on the breaks on this short-sighted industrialization policy. Or maybe they are at the Beijing auto show admiring the latest Cadillac SUV, I don’t know. Either way, people in Chinese government who are REALLY trying to make a difference as opposed to fat-catting themselves and their mistresses probably have some of the toughest jobs in the world.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:34 am | Comment

@PB,

I always saw all of the environmental pollution as a necessary evil. You’re certainly more informed on this than I am, as you’re an insider in the field… so I’d actually like to hear your thoughts and math on the issue.

But from a layman’s perspective: how does China grab market share and build wealth without out-doing established Western businesses on *some* dimension? Labor costs are only a small part of the equation, and we can’t compete with the West on efficiency and technology.

We don’t have the capital to do things cleanly, but the alternative of not doing anything at all is a death sentence in its own way.

What’s a better scenario in your mind? Are you convinced that China’s not accumulating more from these businesses, than the cost of the environmental damage it is inflicting?

April 24, 2008 @ 1:41 am | Comment

Anybody know what is the trigger for the huge jump in the share prices of nearly all Chinese companies listed on New York Stock exchange?

I woke up this morning to a sea of green in my portfolio.

Aluminum Corp of China jumped 9 %

Huaneng Power jumped 13 %

Even oil companies CEO and PTR have jumped while the spot price for crude oil is declining.

US stocks, by contrast is not moving that much.

I am still search for an explanation. Anybody?

April 24, 2008 @ 1:41 am | Comment

@CMD,

The stamp tax. Last May, taxes on all stock transactions were raised to 0.3% of the transaction amount. (This was a period when the Chinese stock market was overheated beyond belief; I personally was in favor of the tax as an administrative matter, although vast majority of Chinese cried bloody murder.)

Yesterday, the stamp tax was dropped down to 0.1% again. I think it’s a good, proactive move.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:46 am | Comment

@CCT

Thanks Bud!!!

Now I am curious. I haven’t open my papers yet.

Where do you get your info on Chinese financial matters?

Thanks again!

April 24, 2008 @ 1:50 am | Comment

REUTERS — A group of Chinese lawyers have sued CNN, saying remarks by
commentator Jack Cafferty in which he called Chinese “goons” violated
the dignity and reputation of the Chinese people, a Hong Kong newspaper
said.

The Beijing-backed Wen Wei Po said the Beijing court had yet to accept
the case, which comes amid a wave of criticism in China against Western
news outlets in the wake of recent unrest in Tibet and disruptions to
the Beijing Olympic torch relay abroad.

China’s Foreign Ministry summoned CNN’s Beijing bureau chief last week
and demanded an apology after Cafferty said Chinese products were
“junk,” adding the remark: “They are basically the same bunch of goons
and thugs they’ve been for the last 50 years.”

One of the 14 lawyers who launched the case told the newspaper
Cafferty’s remarks “seriously violated and abused the reputation and
dignity of the plaintiffs as Chinese people, and caused serious
spiritual and psychological injury to the plaintiffs.”

The lawyers sought the restoration of the Chinese people’s reputation
through publications and in the media and asked for 100 yuan ($14.31) in
damages, it said.

If this goes ahead, it sets a terrific precedent for Lee Teng-hui, Chris Patten and others to sue in Chinese courts for defamation. I can’t wait!

April 24, 2008 @ 1:57 am | Comment

@CMD,

I usually just use Google News, and this was one of the top stories.

I actually don’t usually follow financial issues on a daily basis… because I’m not a daily investor, just a monthly one. (I tried day-trading about a decade ago, and the results were painful.) So it’s a coincidence that I happened to catch this news that quickly.

For Chinese stock news in detail… I’d head to Sina.com’s finance section, or news.baidu.com.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:59 am | Comment

Stop the presses! The Onion has yet another piece on China:

BEIJING Known among schoolmates for his spirited antics and ability to make light of almost any situation, classroom jokester Wei Xiang, 11, was put to death by the Chinese government for drawing a mustache on an image of Education Minister Zhou Ji in one of his textbooks, sources reported Monday. “An enemy of the state has been dealt with accordingly,” government spokesman Xu Qi said following Wei’s execution by firing squad. “Let this be a lesson to other children considering wising off or otherwise wasting valuable class time.” The fifth-grader previously served a six-month term in solitary confinement at Qincheng Prison after referring to the Tang Dynasty as “the Stank Dynasty” during a history lesson in 2007.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/chinese_class_clown

April 24, 2008 @ 2:05 am | Comment

Now that’s what I’m taking about,

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympics/torch/2008-04/23/content_6636364.htm

It is fortunate that the diligence of the french people has benefited the people in the motherland with a lesson on the proper way for those who love the motherland to show patriotic zeal transformed into concrete actions to do one’s own work well.

If you are a patriot and act now we can set you up with a box of Chairman Mao wrist watches and a box of flags, along with a manual “Jiayou Xiao Huangdi! Jiayou! on the proper techniques to transform patriotic zeal into concrete sales performance. You could be the number sales performer this summer.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:17 am | Comment

@CCT

Mucho Gracias!

I see it now after I search China in Google news section.

I am surprised that such important news was not linked to each individual stock in Google finance section, or at least the section for FXI.

There was nary a mention in today’s FT print section either.

I had given up search “China” in google news section because it usually come up with Western MSM mumbo jumbo. Normally, I perform more specific search like “Olympic torch relay” etc. But this had shown me the error of my ways.

Thanks for the heads up on Sina and news.baidu.com. I will check them out from now on.

I don’t day trade either. My first and last intentional day trade happened in 2003. Too much emotional roller coaster for me. My Mom likes the drama but I rather be out surfing on a good day.

Few weeks ago, I accidentally click on the place order button while toying with the idea of shorting Lehman Bro. I quickly covered my position. I was lucky to have gained 1% on that trade. But I hope that’s the last time I will do such a thing.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:20 am | Comment

@CMD,

I will say that even the dropping of the stamp tax shows how much further the Chinese government has to go. The official announcement of the stamp tax reduction wasn’t released until 4:30 PM Beijing time, to be enacted the following day.

But… you’ll note that the Shanghai index was already up 4% for the day. What does that tell me? It tells me the word was already out; there was absolutely insider trading, and someone profited.

The Shanghai exchange is only something like 15 years old, so its understandable that its law enforcement sucks. But a successful Chinese economy, at the end of the day, can’t allow stuff like this to keep happening.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:23 am | Comment

CCT,

Here is a documentary made by Swiss Public Television:

Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y

April 24, 2008 @ 2:31 am | Comment

@PB
“For a country with such serious energy, water and resource constraints, what the heck is it doing building the hell out of a power, water and pollution-intensive heavy industry?”

For a country with such serious energy, water and resource constraints, what the heck is it doing with a population of 1.3Billions and counting?

Can the population be the big constraint in CH development? The country simple cannot sustain the energy and resources consumption required for an advanced technological society. (??)

April 24, 2008 @ 2:35 am | Comment

@CCT
“Mucho Gracias!” —> Muchas gracias.

Gracias is plural

April 24, 2008 @ 2:37 am | Comment

@CCT

I agree with you.

All governments, no matter what ideological underpinning, tend to respond only to crisis. Good times usually mask all kind of problems.

It will probably take a huge financial scandal for the government to put in place the appropriate oversight to monitor and regulate the financial market.

I personally can’t wait for some of the insider trading big fat cats to see the inside of a Chinese prison.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:46 am | Comment

@CCT

Do you know anything about the protest in SF this Saturday against CNN?

April 24, 2008 @ 2:46 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

I wasn’t the one who said “Mucho Gracias”. Although… I would have, since I don’t know Spanish grammar either.

As far as China’s population… absolutely, without a doubt it is THE MOST IMPORTANT factor behind China’s development path. This is why the one child policy is so critical, and why so many problems are difficult to solve. A failure to recognize this is a huge mistake.

As far as whether the country “can” or “cannot” sustain an advanced technological society… I’m still waiting to hear back from PB regarding what the constraining factor might be. There are serious challenges here, but I haven’t seen anything yet here that’s been proven to be unsolvable. (This is also why I personally support a strong, efficient central government at this point in China’s development; the stakes are huge, and the problems are very difficult.)

Not enough power plants? We’ll build a few hundred nuclear plants, while also investing in LNG and every other power source known to man. (Including He3 from the moon?)

Not enough water? Once we have enough power, we’ll build desalination plants, and we’ll also build man-made rivers going South->North.

Not enough arable land? We’ll use genetic engineering to increase efficiency, while also using water + power to recover previously lost land.

There are two key ingredients to all of the above: money, and time.

Will these all work? No idea, there’s no historical equivalent for what China is doing. But as someone who’s Chinese, I sure am not going to accept the theory that the Chinese are condemned to perpetual existence as impoverished under-class.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:48 am | Comment

@CCT

Ooops. The grammar lesson was for CDM. Seems he needs some more Salsa lessons….

About one child policy. Is there not a risk of a to rapid inversion of the population pyramid.
What will be the consequences for CH?

Somewhere I read that CH will grow old before it grows rich.
But a fast aging population will cut several of CH advantages, cheap young labor, big number of young graduate university students, etc.
How are they going to deal with a disproportionate aged population in the future?

April 24, 2008 @ 2:56 am | Comment

To the original Poster,

Spot on what? LOL, before US invaded Iraq, literally the rest of world screamed against it, millions of ppl took on street to protest, and what happened? they went ahead.

After all the drama they couldnt find WMD! To make it worse, 1 million ppl killed, 3 million ppl dislocated. You’d think some of their officials would be tried as war criminals, you’d think Ameican people would be greatly humbled in international affairs at least for some time, but what happened to them? nothing, absolutely nothing.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:59 am | Comment

@ecodelta

“For a country with such serious energy, water and resource constraints, what the heck is it doing with a population of 1.3Billions and counting?”

Can’t help it, we love sex.

“Can the population be the big constraint in CH development? The country simple cannot sustain the energy and resources consumption required for an advanced technological society. (??)”

Elementary, Watson.

Global rebalancing of trade with its attendant dollar devaluation and RMB appreciation means we will consume more and you will consume less.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:01 am | Comment

@DJ,

I know that there is one… let me look up info. I see it as outside CNN offices at 9 AM:

50 California St Ste 950
San Francisco, CA 94111

I’m in favor of overseas Chinese being as united as possible, but there’s definitely far less passion for this than there was for the Olympic torch relay itself.

Speaking personally, I don’t know if going after CNN will achieve much. Americans don’t “get it”, and CNN isn’t going to respond beyond maybe a repetition of what they said before.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:02 am | Comment

@CCT
“But as someone who’s Chinese, I sure am not going to accept the theory that the Chinese are condemned to perpetual existence as impoverished under-class.”

I think worst case scenario would be an elite, no idea how numerous, plus a bigger population base in much more precarious conditions. That would be a further justification for an authoritarian form of government in CH.

Once saw a study from German researches. They took one part of CH and calculated what would be need to provide the population there with a moderate living standard according to EU metrics.
House, energy, transportation, etc.
It was impossible. Simply not enough resources.

With current technology no solution in sight, with new technologies still hard to say, and even if possible is the question of time.

That is one of the reasons I favor transfer of IP to CH of those energy and environment technologies that could make a modern sustainable society in CH. In EU or US there is simply not such a need nor the will to develop them.

They are just gathering dust in some research/company laboratories.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:08 am | Comment

@CDM
“Can’t help it, we love sex.”

No safe sex? There are modern means to prevent/control “side effects”. Did you not know? ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 3:12 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

Somewhere I read that CH will grow old before it grows rich.
But a fast aging population will cut several of CH advantages, cheap young labor, big number of young graduate university students, etc.
How are they going to deal with a disproportionate aged population in the future?

I think I talked about this on this blog before.

Just looking around in my own extended family, it’s easy to see the “inversed pyramid” that you’re talking about. I see numerous families where its four grand-parents, two parents, and one grand-child. When the grand-child gets married, he/she will end up working to support 4 parents and 8 grand-parents.

But I’m not necessarily concerned about this from the point of view of the larger economy. You really have to have a big picture view of China’s generations, and realize that the newer generations are by design of much better “quality” than the older generations.

The four older grandparents that are being phased out of the workforce are “unproductive”. Very few are college graduates (even the ones in the cities), and very few have the necessary skills for the modern economy. But now they’re being replaced by a grandchild who is computer-literate, has a college degree, and be able to step into a modern corporation and be productive.

Let me put it this way. What is the net economic result when you replace 3 farmers and 1 bicycle technician… with a computer programmer? It’s not necessarily negative.

Bottom line: you really can’t *breed* your way out of a large, “low quality” population. It’s like a traditional investment pyramid scheme; you might win on the short-term, but you’re only setting yourself up for more pain in the future.

And by the way, this is another reason why I personally am pessimistic about India’s future. India hasn’t done enough to control its population growth, and it hasn’t done enough to improve the “quality” of the new population.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:14 am | Comment

@ecodelta

“No safe sex? There are modern means to prevent/control “side effects”. Did you not know? ;-)

I am just an ignorant Chinese bloke with an oversized libido. I preferred to spread my genetic materials all over the world.

Just doing my best to be an evolutionary success.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:16 am | Comment

@ecodelta

“No safe sex? There are modern means to prevent/control “side effects”. Did you not know? ;-)

I am just an ignorant Chinese bloke with an oversized libido. I preferred to spread my genetic materials all over the world.

Just doing my best to be an evolutionary success.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:17 am | Comment

Um… I will come clean. The previous post was me. Don’t know how the name got messed up.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:19 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

I think worst case scenario would be an elite, no idea how numerous, plus a bigger population base in much more precarious conditions. That would be a further justification for an authoritarian form of government in CH.

I might be naive, but I don’t think that’s going to happen in China. The socialist/communist ideology we were all brain-washed with remains very strong in the vast majority of Chinese. I don’t think the Chinese public will tolerate indefinitely a “bigger population … in precarious conditions”.

There’s already a lot of anger and impatience *amongst the elite* about the slow pace of economic growth for the rural poor.

It’s kind of an interesting dynamic really… on Chinese forums, you usually have university students and corporate workers in their mid 20s ranting about how the Party has failed to provide for the rural peasants… and then you have the peasants posting how their life really isn’t that bad, and that they support the Party.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:20 am | Comment

“It’s kind of an interesting dynamic really… on Chinese forums, you usually have university students and corporate workers in their mid 20s ranting about how the Party has failed to provide for the rural peasants… and then you have the peasants posting how their life really isn’t that bad, and that they support the Party.”

Yeah right. That’s why they have massive rual riots all the time, right?

Just yesterday a Hong Kong source claim one person was shot in a rural unrest.

Do you hear so much as a peep from the “elites”?

April 24, 2008 @ 3:24 am | Comment

“It’s kind of an interesting dynamic really… on Chinese forums, you usually have university students and corporate workers in their mid 20s ranting about how the Party has failed to provide for the rural peasants… and then you have the peasants posting how their life really isn’t that bad, and that they support the Party.”

Hah. That’s what it’s like in Alberta too. The socialists are all rich college kids who talk about fighting for the working class, but, to their chagrin, the working class consistently votes in conservative governments.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:30 am | Comment

@CCT

HHmmm… Maybe the elite existed all the way in Mao times. No need for it to be disproportionately rich, just significantly more affluent than the lower population. The word nomenklatura comes to my mind

On the other hand… Maybe some of the madness that CH suffered during its socialist past were just desperate attempts to make the communist system work and raise the average living standards of the people. In theory it should work, but like so many theories… That economic system could not provide enough beyond a certain level. It may has raised the lowest of the low, but crashed down those higher up in the economic ladder.

It could be nice for one down under in society see the ones on top falling. But by destroying the upper levels, the ones that could pull the country forward, the country literally stagnated.

Now it looks like trying hard to catch lost time. Too late? Who knows?

April 24, 2008 @ 3:32 am | Comment

@Cao Meng De

Have you checked out Pomfret’s China blog in Washington Post? It’s not a bad start.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:41 am | Comment

@Jinhan,

Yeah right. That’s why they have massive rual riots all the time, right? … Just yesterday a Hong Kong source claim one person was shot in a rural unrest…. Do you hear so much as a peep from the “elites”?

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by the elites. I don’t really know what the Party says to itself behind close doors. I can only tell you what most of the college-graduated Chinese netizens in their 20s say: they’re pissed at all perceptions of abuse against the “weak underclass” in Chinese society. Whenever they read a story about prostitutes or small-time peddlers striking back and beating or killing a government official or police offer, many will cheer.

As far as *why* there are massive rural riots “all the time”… I think you should compare India and China before you get into a discussion of what “all the time” really means.

There are obviously numerous riots throughout China. Keep in mind how much power local governments have when it comes to land development deals. Keep in mind that China has 930,000 villages. Even if only 1% of officials are corrupt (and the number is probably quite a bit higher), that translates into 9,300 villages with a legitimate grudge. (And probably many more villages that are still angry, even without a legitimate grudge.)

But I’m talking big picture view. For 99% of Chinese villagers, the only material things they’ve seen from the government over the last 2-3 years (under the Wen Jiabao administration) is this:

- new roads and power lines,
- significantly increased incomes,
- elimination of all agricultural taxes, for the first time in 5000 years of Chinese history,
- truly free schooling up to the 9th grade.

I’m not trying to white-wash anything in China. I’m only calling it as I see it, as objective as I can. And the truth is, vast majority of rural peasants posting online very much applaud Wen Jiabao’s policies.

In 2001, the word spreading throughout the Chinese world was the research done in Anhui, published under the title “Survey of Chinese Peasants”. And much of that criticism was shocking, and I don’t know what % was accurate or fair. But the result on the central government can’t be disputed. For the last 6 years, a ton of attention has been spent on the “san-nong” (three agricultural) problem, and the peasants by and large appreciate the policies.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

@CCT

I have always had the same thought on India regarding population control. Discussions with many Indians generally showed that they do not disagree. Interestingly, a universal response is that: there is no feasible within the existing system to do anything about it.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

CCT,

In a quick dirty summary, I think one of the main deficiencies of Chinese industrialization policy is its rigid adherence to modernist teleology, ie there is only one way for a country to “advance” (ie mimic Western industrialization processes). And let me just say the greed of Western business and industry has not exactly helped it be anything else.

The problem with this is that it is no longer the 19th century, China is not developing in isolation with a virgin planet at its feet, and there is a whole world out there as hungry for resources as the PRC. And yet here we are with the same old economic models in the driver’s seat, completely discounting any environmental cost or idea of finite resource availability.

A big change is coming to economics, some would even say a revolution. The idea that all capital is created equal- financial, natural, resource – is what has been driving modern industrialization processes (you know, it’s okay to deplete resources and the environment as long as I accumulate financial wealth to buy my way out of it after). But in a resource scarce environment, control of ACTUAL resources is more important than ‘money’, a purely ethereal representation of value. What is the purpose of accumulating all sorts of money if no one will sell you anything? What so many people seem to have forgotten in our age of financial wizardry is that money, in the end, is worthless in the true sense (well, unless you burn a ton of it as fuel :-) What use is money if you have completely ravaged your land and can barely live on it?

An argument could be made that this is why the US made a grab for Iraq- it needs actual control of a major oil resource, not just access to markets (what if it gets shut out?).

This might all sound a little crazy coming from someone who works in finance, but being on the inside makes it that much clearer. Witness the current fiasco in the US- financial “wealth” can disappear overnight. Control of physical resources is a bit more resilient.

Of course the scenario I’ve been describing is not tomorrow- in the meantime, real change is happening so that money (and the ability to make it or lose it) becomes more tied to a comprehensive accounting of true costs to the environment. There is nothing wrong with using money as a representation of value if it accounts for environmental effects- of course, this is not reality as any government throws subsidies at all consumables possible the second a crowd gathers to complain about prices. In China, this is even more acute due to the CCP’s utter fear of losing power.

The idea is not to toss out the tenets of finance, but rather to bring the environment fully into the realm of the balance sheet. Already in the US, you’ve had big time investors balk at financing some utilities’ coal power expansion plans, because they know they will get hit with big liabilities in the event of likely carbon taxing/caps. One of the largest private equity deals in recent memory centered on a utility ditching most of its new proposed coal power plants.

I don’t see the environment vs. economics- in fact, I think economics as we move forward will focus on ascribing value to the environment and cost to its damage. There is really no other way for our present global industrial system to survive.

And barring major change to policy, I see China ending up on the wrong side of this evolution. The countries’ current competitive advantage is built entirely on old economic thinking- with the rise of environmental economics, disregard for environmental consequences will no longer be an ‘advantage’ but a huge and ominous cost.

I really hope that China gets its energy act together, I really do. With its sheer size, it could be forcing all sorts of fundamental changes to the global supply chain and industrial practices. The Chinese gov’t tells a multinational to jump, and they will probably ask “how high?”. But instead, it is really offering nothing new to the world, it’s government stuck in some strange perma-19th century mentality (at least in its public face). As we have discussed earlier, why most Chinese cities have turned into hybrids of Las Vegas and Los Angeles with the world where it is today, I have no idea and it leaves me deeply frustrated. Maybe I’m expecting too much from a country with so much on its hands, but at the same time if it really wants to become a global leader to challenge the US it needs to get its environmental act together, not turn INTO the US.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:49 am | Comment

@CCT

I agree and disagree with you.

I agree that rising productivity will more than compensate for reduced labor pool. Although my Mom thinks that I am a lazy bum, at least I would like to think I am more productive than they
were.

I can … ah…mmm… allocate capitals more efficiently. But hey it beats building dikes in Aba (Ngawa) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture of Sichuan province during height of Cultural Revolution.

Yup in parlance of our time, my parents were “Han colonialists” in Tibetan area of Sichuan province. As a nurse straight out of nursing school, my Mom was sent there and provided medical services to nomadic herders in Aba(Ngawa) and later Ganzi (Garzê) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture. Dad applied his electrical engineering training in helping build hydro-electrical dams.

Fortunately for me, they met and fall in love and later decided to “Colonize” North America together.

Btw, I still think I am more productive than they were.

Anyway, I digress.

I have to disagree with your statement that

“you really can’t *breed* your way out of a large, “low quality” population. ”

First I object to the term “low quality”. It’s a loaded and highly subjective term.

It actually has been the evolutionary strategy of the poor throughout history to “breed* their way out.

The numbers is a guarantee against diseases, high infant mortality among the poor and disadvantaged social-economic status.

It only takes one bright, resilient chap among the brood who will rise above his/her social conditions for the poor family to win the genetic lottery.

India’s problem, I believe lies mainly with the Indian government and is a whole different animal all together.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:53 am | Comment

@PB
“The idea is not to toss out the tenets of finance, but rather to bring the environment fully into the realm of the balance sheet”

Amen!

April 24, 2008 @ 3:56 am | Comment

@CDM
“It only takes one bright, resilient chap among the brood who will rise above his/her social conditions for the poor family to win the genetic lottery.”

The genes not the family wins the lottery.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:03 am | Comment

Apparently you missed this one in explaining
that oomph! in china’s stock market, apparently the patriotic zeal of the national people’s struggle has resulted in the creation of a new investment instrument referred to as a “rathole”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2b7d44ca-108b-11dd-b8d6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

It is important to be able to identify a good “rathole” vs a bad “rathole”.

A bad “rathole” is run by an outsider or splittist who does not have guanxi and must be sacrificed to ensure that the laobaixing do not become concerned about the stability of the market.

A good “rathole” is run by a citizen in good standing who has fully paid up his kickbacks and has guanxi with key officials. A good “rathole” can sometimes go bad when it is discovered that the money has been transferred overseas to a swiss bank account, to the cayman islands, or used to purchase luxury homes in western countries to serve as havens for relatives.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:05 am | Comment

@PB,

I tried to read through your post, but I didn’t see a specific call to action, but just a repetition of standard principles that I don’t think anyone disagrees.

Of course environmental degregation should be on the balance sheet. That has to be there. But you also have to put it in the proper time series. This clearly calls for a rigorous financial analysis.

You seem to insist the NPV of all of this is negative; is it? What are the terms for your assumption? Can you back it up? I’m not trying to start a rhetorical battle of wits with you. I’m honestly curious.

Have you actually looked at the numbers and come to the conclusion that China’s economic development “must fail” unless it takes specific policies? Or are you just repeating your off-the-cuff “feelings”?

April 24, 2008 @ 4:10 am | Comment

@PB

The current phase in commodities boom is just that, a phase. It has more to do with 20 years of underinvestment as a result of oversupply and low pricing environment of 80s and 90s, which is a result of the boom in the 1970s.

Everything has come a full circle.

Only commodities in the danger of running out soon is the easily accessible, cheaply extracted oil deposits.

But eventually, new investment in technology will allow us to find more oil and cheaply extract them from non-conventional source such as Canadian oils sands and Venezuelan Heavy Oil. Have you heard about recent discovery of Tupi and Carioca fields in the Santo Basin of Brazil? It’s a good sign that monster fields are being discovered again.

Laws of free market capitalism still holds.

I don’t believe that “this time it is different”.

btw. Many Chinese, me included, WANT China
to TURN into a giant version of US.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:21 am | Comment

@ecodelta
“The genes not the family wins the lottery.”

True. I am all for free will. But at the end of the day we are not that far removed from giant robots constructed,controlled and piloted by our DNA.

Yep, I probably stole the above line from Richard Dawkins.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:26 am | Comment

@CDM
“But at the end of the day we are not that far removed from giant robots constructed,controlled and piloted by our DNA.”

I think it is time we start to control our DNA.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:30 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

“I think it is time we start to control our DNA”

Easier said than done. My DNA wants to replicate themselves all the time.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:34 am | Comment

@CDM
“My DNA wants to replicate themselves all the time.”

I meant the results of the replication, not the replication itself…. ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 4:39 am | Comment

CCT,

Sorry if I got things confused, I don’t think we were discussing at the same level. There is no way I could claim to pull off a NPV analysis of the Chinese economy as a whole- what would the discount rate be? How could you even quantify the extent of environmental damage with current financial tools? I’m not sure the proper ones even exist yet (mostly, environment damage is just valued right now by what it would cost to “clean up”).

But that was sort of my point- finance has to change fast, and is changing. A NPV of Chinese development using established financial models (discounting the environment) is probably as worthless as an actual predictive tool as my own opinions. Our whole economic/financial model (Chinese, US, Canada, wherever) is increasingly mismatched to our reality.

I wish I could offer you more concrete answers, but I’m not at the forefront of environmental economics. I analyze specific companies in the clean technology and renewable energy sectors as investment opportunities- making the most of the current bad system, I guess you could say. I dig through income statements and balance sheets at the micro level, so my focus is pretty narrow. And my opinions here on PD pretty off-the-cuff. Sorry to give you the wrong impression.

But I think some of the answers are pretty obvious:

1) For god’s sake, stop building massive coal power plants.
When more established consumer markets get serious about carbon emissions (which they will), Chinese industry will take a huge hit. Nuclear power, I think, will be acceptable environmentally given the alternatives. Get Areva and GE in there like there’s no tomorrow.

2) Stop subsidizing the cancerous growth of duplicate, dirty heavy industry in the hinterlands with cheap everything (although I know this has much more to do with local politics, and it angers Beijing quite a bit)

3) Stop pushing private automobile ownership so hard (or at least wait until they are post-petroleum. If China’s got such historical patience, what’s the rush?)

4) Get SERIOUS about illegal urbanization of agricultural land (lip service doesn’t stop cranes, but again also much more to do with local politics).

5) Don’t invest your national savings in greed-driven, short-sighted Western investment firms: pour, pour, pour it into new energy and clean tech research. I think this has much more potential real return to Chinese society than any % Blackstone could get them on their money.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:40 am | Comment

Cao Meng De,

There are certainly debates about the limits of the supply side, but the bigger worry is on the sinkside: can the planetary ecoysystem handle the effects of such a major increase in resource consumption and waste production, even if the resources themselves are available?

I think that is the much bigger question, which current market dynamics/ economic and financial analysis are much less equipped to answer.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:48 am | Comment

For example, if even 20% of the worry about carbon emissions translates into some sort of policy change, there is NO WAY the oil sands in Alberta will be developed to the extent many seem to take for granted. And I’m not even going to mention the water supply problems involved in its development. Sure it’s sitting there, but will it cost more to the ecosystem to extract it than to just leave there? Trying to figure that out is the way economic analysis needs to go (and I think is going).

April 24, 2008 @ 4:51 am | Comment

@PB

“pour, pour, pour it into new energy and clean tech research.”

I agree. Only way to narrow the gap in CH between mismatch of population demand and available resources. Current technology, no matter how optimized, will not close it by much.

Time for CH not only to suck out as much IP knowledge as possible from foreign lands, but to heavily invest in basic investigation to develop new technology in that area.

No one is going to need it more than them.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:56 am | Comment

@CMD,

I’m not offended by the term “low quality” (suzhe), and I think we should make it a standard part of daily parlance. People are only as productive as their education and background allows them to be. A successful country must have high quality people, period.

The United States is a very productive, functioning country because (generally) even the lowest quality members of this society get 12 years of free, quality education. And with even minimal effort, a college degree follows easily.

This isn’t to pat myself on the back as being of “high quality”, by the way; hopefully I’ll be able to continue to improve myself every day.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

I get my Chinese news mostly from Hong Kong press, Western news from New York Times, the Guardian online, German news, BBC.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:13 am | Comment

@PB

I haven’t spend enough time studying the climate science, so I have no position on global warming.

But it seems to me much of the argument about capacity of planetary ecoysystem is rather Malthusian in nature.

One big flaw of Malthusian theory is assumed steady population growth while ignoring impact of advancement in technology.

Throughout developed countries, the birth rate has declined below replacement rate. China, rather unique among developing nation is in the same boat. With increased urbanization, I don’t see the trend reversing soon, even if government phase out one -child policy.

Maybe I am just seeing my world thru rose-tinted lenses.

Hey if things really get unsustainable, we can always start whole-sale slaughter of each other until we reach a new sustainable level.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:14 am | Comment

@CDM
“Many Chinese, me included, WANT China
to TURN into a giant version of US.”

Too late, you are too late. No chance at all now.

No enough resources available or accessible for CH to do it. Besides the planet may not resist it.

While CH slept the world kept moving. Maybe even going back 200 years in time you could have a chance. Or may be not

Unless… Instead of Mayflower was Zehng He and the treasure fleet what was teach at US schools today. But CH loose that opportunity too, at the best moment when they could.

The big advantage of US was a big land, lot or resources and small population, bringing blueprints of the English industrial revolution with them. CH simply did not has such advantages: land, resources, population. Maybe long time ago yes, except industrial revolution.

China has to find another way. Could they become so powerful like the US today? Do not think so, unless they develop a unforeseeable new technologies.

No help from the west this time. You can not take any IP from us now, we do not have such knowledge.

This time you are on your own. Good luck.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:14 am | Comment

Do you agree the Chinese govt banning actress Tang Wei is fair? Especially after the script of the movie had been approved by the state department?

April 24, 2008 @ 5:16 am | Comment

@CDM
“Hey if things really get unsustainable, we can always start whole-sale slaughter of each other until we reach a new sustainable level.”

CH starts first! ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 5:17 am | Comment

@Cao
I’m beginning to hope that you go back to the PRC and make it into the those top 10 000 people. If the Pax Sina is designed as you advocate, it’s might not be half bad.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:21 am | Comment

@PB/ecodelta,

I appreciate you being candid on your position. I think the vast majority of informed Chinese (including those at the highest levels of government) already share your *conclusions*, so I don’t believe you’re contributing anything significantly new here. I believe the central government is already trying to implement exactly what you said, and the failures you’re seeing just reflect the difficulty of the challenges.

Let me remind everyone again of another key factor that underlies China’s desperate rush to build and grow so quickly: a huge, unproductive rural population. It’s simply not possible for someone working an acre plot of land by hand (or with a water buffalo) to become prosperous; the economic output simply doesn’t exist. And multiply this by 800 million, and you see the scope of the problem.

China can and will make itself more prosperous by getting as many people off the land as soon as possible. This is a human/demographic problem, as ecodelta said earlier. We need to drop the rural population down to 300 million-400 million people at most, and the only way of doing that (other than buying Australia and opening it up for emigration) is urbanizing, and urbanizing quickly.

And urban centers require concrete, roads, and manufacturing jobs… and ALL of these require electricity. No solution for China can be considered unless it takes into account the above. As I told ecodelta, we aren’t going to settle for a few hundred million Chinese living in developed prosperity while 800 million of our countrymen live in third world poverty.

So, your specific proposals for example:

- coal-powered power plants are unfortunately critical to providing power at this point. Coal is plentiful, and most importantly very cheap. Best we can hope for is *cleaner* coal, and my sense is that’s happening.

- nuclear power plants. China is investing huge amounts in this. France is the world leader in nuclear power generation, and a strong partner. You can google for China’s nuclear power plans online… it’s hugely ambitious. But even so, nuclear can only provide for something like 3-5% of China’s power generation in the next 20 years. (Don’t recall specific numbers off hand.)

- private automobile ownership… on this, I fully, fully agree with you. I think it’s incredibly foolish to try to emulate the American model. It won’t work. We have to copy Japan instead.

But you also have to look at what China is doing to try to head this off… the amount invested in public sector transportation is unbelievable. China had, what, 3-4 subway lines 8 years ago? (Shanghai and Beijing.) How many does it have now, and how many are planned?

You also have to take a look at the high-speed rail systems being implemented in China. Local high-speed networks are designed to allow the creation of “super-cities”, very much in the Japanese model. In 20 years, Beijing and Tianjin will be one big city. In 40-50 years, Shanghai and Nanjing (and everything in between) will be one big city. Guangzhou/Shenzhen/Hong Kong will be another huge city.

- as far as pouring money into research… China doesn’t have anything equivalent to the United States NSF or DARPA when it comes to funding *and monitoring* basic science research. I think asking China to be the sole originator of research in clean-tech is, unfortunately, hopeless on the near-term. It will happen, but it’s decades away.

I really think you guys are closer to the right page when you speak of a partnership between China and the developed West; American/European companies are the ones best suited to develop this technology, and then China should pay for the implementation and deployment of this technology. It’s absolutely the definition of a win-win scenario.

So bottom line, I don’t disagree with the spirit of what you’ve said. And I personally believe that the Chinese government very much “gets it”, and I just hope that you guys return the favor by “getting” the specific difficulty of the challenges involved.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:22 am | Comment

Cao Meng De,

The scary thing is that sometimes it feels like our governments are resigned to some variation of your “wholesale” slaughter approach. Instead of getting to the root of the problem- switching energy sources -, the money and guns are focused, desperate even, to secure new sources of the old garbage.

Think of all the wealth wasted on the Iraq war, and just imagine what that could have done in terms of energy research. It’s beyond belief.

Say “global warming” to your average government today, and what’s the response? “Great, more shipping lanes and oil exploration in the Arctic!”

Sigh….

At least I try to put my money where my mouth is.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:22 am | Comment

@cathy

Everybody knows that Sarft is run by bunch of morons with collective IQs in single digits.

The key is how to “liberate” the power over China’s cultural sphere from the hands of these dimwits.

@ecodelta

Nope, not expecting your help at all. Plenty of bright Chinese men and women have studied and lived in the West. Their return will be sufficient in aiding our research.

Oh, wait you don’t have the power to stop China-West cooperation in science and development.

Never mind then

We will still own your collective asses

April 24, 2008 @ 5:25 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

I think a more fair way of looking at it is… if China/India can’t achieve a contemporary US standard of living, then you’re eventually going to see the US lose its standard of living as well, until it meets us in the window.

I fully predict a gradual equalization, over time. I personally refuse to accept anything else.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:26 am | Comment

CCT,

Don’t worry, I fully appreciate the difficulties involved. I consider myself beyond blessed to live in Canada, and find it even more outrageous that in a country like this one with so much going for it we still waste so much money and effort on short-term gain stupidity like the oil sands. With 30 million people on a giant landmass, we can’t even manage to lead by example. In many ways it’s much more pathetic than China’s lot.

I’ve lived in the “developing world” for a few years (I actually really hate that term, so condescending), China and Mozambique, and I made a decision to come home to Canada and work here. A lot of the change/innovation is going to have to come from this end. Why mess around with other societies when my own could use a major fixing or two (and help out those others in the process).

April 24, 2008 @ 5:33 am | Comment

“I think a more fair way of looking at it is… if China/India can’t achieve a contemporary US standard of living, then you’re eventually going to see the US lose its standard of living as well, until it meets us in the window.”

Even that is too pessimistic. We are all going to continue to become smarter and richer. We are humans, and there is absolutely nothing we are incapable of overcoming. I pity the first race of aliens that we encounter.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:34 am | Comment

@PB,

I think that’s the right attitude. I personally don’t see what’s offensive about the term “developing nation”, however. It has a very optimistic tone to it.

Truth is, very few developing nations have actually *developed* in recent human history.. which as you suggested, should really be considered a failure for all humanity, but especially the developed nations that could lead the process.

For the sake of all humanity (the other 3 billion people still living in developed nations), I hope China succeeds.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:36 am | Comment

@CCT
“China can and will make itself more prosperous by getting as many people off the land as soon as possible. This is a human/demographic problem, as ecodelta said earlier. We need to drop the rural population down to 300 million-400 million people at most,”

My fear is that CH may hit a ceiling well before that due to limited resources, or what is technically possible today with current methods and technologies.

“the amount invested in public sector transportation is unbelievable. China had, what, 3-4 subway lines 8 years ago? (Shanghai and Beijing.)”
I find it impressive, specially Shanghai metro. In next to no time is as big as Madrid metro. Still Madrid is smaller than Shanghai. 3M against 18M. And people in Madrid think more lines must be build! In comparison population/km Shanghai metro is still much smaller!

“I really think you guys are closer to the right page when you speak of a partnership between China and the developed West; ”
No only technology but also access to energy resources. Not because of good heart from west, but to prevent major conflicts if CH feel itself unfairly constrained by the west in the access to energy resources. It goes in our own selfish interest.

April 24, 2008 @ 5:40 am | Comment

Come on; three cheers for humanity, everybody!
It’s good to wear rose tinted glasses and be self congratulatory once in awhile…

April 24, 2008 @ 5:45 am | Comment

The “developing nation” terminology gets to me because I find it reflects the old standard Euro-American superiority complex. Sort of curious what gets set as the “developed” status- oh wait, that’s right, “Western” countries + Japan and a few city-states. What a coincidence! :-)

I don’t like calling a place like Canada “developed”, because it implies that we have somehow reach an ideal end-state (notice the tense) when I’d say that is pretty damn far from the truth. But cool that you think the “developing” term is optimistic, maybe that’s the right way to go.

I think grades of industrialization is a better way of comparing countries in this way, if you want. I’d say Canada is certainly urbanized/industrialized to the hilt (we can’t do anything for ourselves, I have no clue how to grow food or survive without a complex industrial system supporting my livelihood).

April 24, 2008 @ 5:46 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

Did you know that Shanghai already has 18 subway lines planned… to be completed by around 2015? Supposedly, right now 21% of trips in the central business district relied on public transportation, and they hope to raise this to 50% by 2020.

The amount of money being allocated to these projects are just obscene (in a very pleasant way).

April 24, 2008 @ 5:52 am | Comment

@CDM
“Nope, not expecting your help at all.”
That is irrelevant ;-)
The point is that you still need it, even if you do not want it.

” Plenty of bright Chinese men and women have studied and lived in the West. Their return will be sufficient in aiding our research.”
No enough, its need time to build a potent. research system and something more. An CH wasted enough time already… How many patents are registered in CH from CH people? Germany with much lower population still beats CH.
How many Nobel prices won CH? Just ETH in Z�rich beats CH.

“Oh, wait you don’t have the power to stop
China-West cooperation in science and development.”
Nor want to stop it, so do not need that power.

“We will still own your collective asses”
Your fixation with other people asses start to make me wonder…. ;-P

April 24, 2008 @ 5:52 am | Comment

@CCT
“Did you know that Shanghai already has 18 subway lines planned… to be completed by around 2015?”

I got info about Shanghai Metro from CH blog in English. Got some photos, impressive development.
In the photos I can appreciate the solutions applied in stations, accesses and cars. The guys in charge of the project really know how to do things, no idea if they are CH, foreign or both.
Could see just minor problems

By the way just found out my company supplied the train control system :-)

April 24, 2008 @ 5:59 am | Comment

Lime,

I put my rose-tinted glasses on everyday!
Otherwise I’d join the army and go fight for oil resources against the Russians in the Arctic. :-)

April 24, 2008 @ 5:59 am | Comment

@CDM

Ooops. I forgot. CH as a nobel prize. Peace nobel price ot be precise. The Dalai Lama! ;-)

But for some reason they are not much proud of it.

Inscrutable CH mind indeed!

April 24, 2008 @ 6:02 am | Comment

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but this is why so many Chinese are legitimately disappointed in the way the Olympics are going. China has come so remarkably far, and still has so much further to go.

But instead of putting on our rose tinted glasses and celebrating the improvement in living standards for 1 billion human beings… let’s extinguish the torch because of Hu Jia, Darfur, and Tibet.

Heavy sigh.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:04 am | Comment

@CCT
“I really think you guys are closer to the right page when you speak of a partnership between China and the developed West; American/European companies are the ones best suited to develop this technology, and then China should pay for the implementation and deployment of this technology. It’s absolutely the definition of a win-win scenario.”

Now.. I we just could convince the CH to restrain ,at least to manageable levels, their habit to copy everything they get their hands on, to sell it then behind our backs at knock out prices till we notice it, that could make it easier for the west to share some core technologies…

A example comes to my mind
http://tinyurl.com/49btj8

April 24, 2008 @ 6:09 am | Comment

@DJ

I’ve read Pomfret’s China blog. John Pomfret is one of the better qualified foreign journalist in China. He speaks Chinese, studied in China in the 80s, have Chinese friends from his university days there, actually understood the general climate of Chinese students movements leading up to 1989.

I used to read his China reporting in Washington Post back in the days when I still read Washington Post. I generally find his reporting rather insightful. But I feel his world view still somehow constrained by his profession.

It’s hard to explain but I will try. Compare to most of his peers, John Pomfret produce very nuance sometimes rather object reporting. I think his Western readers will really get a real glimpse of modern China.

But to me, he is just telling me things that I already know about China. I agree with most of his point but I am looking for fresh insight in understanding China and her problems.

Case in point is his post “Is China Really Working?” He is spot on in capturing the transformation of Chinese feeling toward the West but there is nothing there to answer his own question “But is this model sustainable?”.

In fact by framing the debate on whether “Chinese Model” is sustainable, he ignores the fact that many Chinese, esp, among intellectuals , feel that the current Chinese system is really a transitory compromise NOT a end goal.

Overall, I give him kudos. Foreigners will definitely benefit from his shrewd observation on Modern China.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:12 am | Comment

@CCT

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but this is why so many Chinese are legitimately disappointed in the way the Olympics are going. China has come so remarkably far, and still has so much further to go.

That is precisely the problem. You can’t organize a huge event to celebrate your country’s very real progress, and then turn around and say the Olympics are “non-political” when people are calling you on some BS.

Heavy sigh.

I know. It’s a bummer the whole thing. It’s only April and look who far we have come…it’s depressing for everyone.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:15 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

I understand China has “a problem” with intellectual property… although I think it’s clearly a wealth problem. How many American college students have a problem with violating intellectual property rights as well?

And far as making technical copies of products, especially the J11 fighter (something I’m also interested in)… I have little sympathy.

Reverse-engineering and “copying” has been a standard part of engineering practices nation-wide. As an engineer, I’m sure you’re aware of that. AMD has reverse-engineered (and implemented emulations) of every Intel processor generated for decades. My company has had its products copied as well (by a large American customer); when we considered legal action, we were told very explicitly the design can only be copyrighted, which means anything but a *direct* copy is perfectly legal.

Patents are a different story. So, if a Chinese company is in violation of patents registered in China, I’m sympathetic, and I think whoever has had their rights violated should pursue their rights under the legal system.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:21 am | Comment

@CCT:

Many of us were against Beijing being awarded the Games in the first place.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter,

Oh I’m well aware of that. I’m amused by all of the hand-wringing in Western capitals about “why the IOC awarded the Games to Beijing”. The Western nations have always been against it.

I was only muttering to myself. It’s only predictable that many in the West don’t share mine (and maybe PB’s) appreciation for China’s remarkable, amazing, humanity-inspiring growth over the past 30 years.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:28 am | Comment

@Amban

The way I try to explain the strong and near universal backlash among Chinese against the China-bashing in the western media is following:

It’s not a case of debating if the glass is half full or half empty. Rather it is more like that we (i.e. the Chinese) know the glass is 75% full and all of a sudden everyone else are saying it is completely empty.

Heavy sign too.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:29 am | Comment

@CCT
“Reverse-engineering and “copying” has been a standard part of engineering practices nation-wide. As an engineer, I’m sure you’re aware of that.”

Reverse engineering and copying are somewhat different. By reverse engineering you try to understand how a system works and how it is build, but then you have to replicate how it works by your own different means. If not Intel would have blasted AMD out of the planet….

April 24, 2008 @ 6:31 am | Comment

@Lime

Thank you for your compliment.

I am not really interested in go into politics though.

When I was 5, I wanted to be the leader of China.

By the time I had graduated from College, I realized that there are far better and wiser men already at helms in China. China is not in need of wiser top leadership. Hu and Wen are doing a terrific job. The problem is the system. What China needs is to build the kind of robust institutions with checks and balances that US have.

Witnessing China build its financial market from scratch, I believe that same could be done with political institutions.

How is it gonna happen? We will see.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:35 am | Comment

@ecodelta,

Yes, and what do you think happened with the J11 and the AL-31F engine? Producing a jet-engine is absolutely not an issue of measuring dimensions and making a “copy”. Just the material science itself is hugely significant.

And what’s involved in making the aeronautics work? It’s not like you can make a copy of the circuit board and be done with it.

The J-11B that Russia is complaining about is a reverse-engineered, domestic fighter built on the original framework of a Russian fighter.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

“Many of us were against Beijing being awarded the Games in the first place.”

Thank you for sharing your non-relevant opinion.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:40 am | Comment

@CCT & DJ
“I was only muttering to myself. It’s only predictable that many in the West don’t share mine (and maybe PB’s) appreciation for China’s remarkable, amazing, humanity-inspiring growth over the past 30 years.”

CH just has to improve is PR capabilities. Find it still very lacking. You can not just expect to appear of a sudden expecting everybody to cheer you. Some people here think you are still the beggar at the street corner…
What people perceive in the west about CH is very different from what CH people perceive themselves.

And yes, we do not agree in matters of TB, DL , DFR, HR etc.. But you must take into account the perceptions in the west, no matter if right or wrong. Anyone could see this problem coming.

Even if you had no intention to compromise on those issues, at least should try to show you wanted to compromise. But may you were too honest for your own sake ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 6:42 am | Comment

@CCT

“Yes, and what do you think happened with the J11 and the AL-31F engine? ”

Okay, now I know that you have WAY too many time on your hands, buddy.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:43 am | Comment

@CCT
“The J-11B that Russia is complaining about is a reverse-engineered, domestic fighter built on the original framework of a Russian fighter.”

Tell that to the Russians not me….. ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 6:44 am | Comment

>Thank you for sharing your non-relevant opinion.

Oops, my sincerest apologies for interrupting the obviously very relevant CMD comments. :P

April 24, 2008 @ 6:49 am | Comment

@ecodelta

You are right about PR. As much as I rag on the inability of Indian government to pull it together, If I had my way, I would fire the entire PR department of the Foreign Ministry (or does it fall under jurisdiction of Ministry of Propaganda?) outsource it to the Indian government.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:51 am | Comment

@CDM
“I would fire the entire PR department of the Foreign Ministry (or does it fall under jurisdiction of Ministry of Propaganda?) ”
Hard to say…

“outsource it to the Indian government.”
Just make sure they speak perfect CH or English with perfect CH accent in the call center, so people will not notice when they phone them….

April 24, 2008 @ 6:59 am | Comment

@ecodelta

I don’t think the number of J11s produced in China exceeded the number agreed to in the contract signed with the Russians. Not that they are not dismayed when China indicated that additional kits were no longer needed. :-)

J10, on the other hand, is a more interesting story. Looks like a solid piece of engineering work to me. It’s not to say there isn’t a constant noise “but it’s copied from the Israel”.

April 24, 2008 @ 7:01 am | Comment

@CCT

Are you also a regular on http://www.sinodefence.com, http://www.wforum.com/wmf, etc.?

April 24, 2008 @ 7:03 am | Comment

@DJ,

No no… I used to be on similar sites, but not for many years. If you haven’t seen it, check out http://www.china-defense.com. JXie is an excellent poster both there and here (less frequently)… he also mentioned he’s on the way back to China, actually.

As far as PR goes… Beijing has the right idea with its various international language stations (CCTV9 – English, as well as French/German/Spanish programming). But Beijing is definitely behind the times. Western public has zero interest and acceptance in a government-owned station.

Beijing also tried going to these pseudo-NGO groups, but again, the West has zero tolerance for NGO groups.

The sad truth is that the “high-ground” in the Western media is owned by specific journalists; their bias goes into every story. The Tibet government-in-exile is winning the war because they’ve cultivated personal relationships with these journalists. I don’t see an easy solution.

April 24, 2008 @ 7:13 am | Comment

@CCT
“The Tibet government-in-exile is winning the war because they’ve cultivated personal relationships with these journalists. I don’t see an easy solution.”

No solution and you name a solution. You need some cultivation lessons.

No interest in government sponsored sat channels.
It is the content not the container. Look at BBC.
But you should rather copy Al Jazehra

You will not share my opinions but I would do the following.

Jin Jing: you have an asset on her, use it to the hilt, but not to raise CH patriotism but to mollify western feelings. Send her abroad as sport ambassador or whatever. Should be on opening ceremony. Put some kids around her, some western kids too.

DL: DO NOT DEMONIZE DL. The DL clique! You loose 90% of the argument already. Is not what you think, but what the people you want you reach think.

HR: By heaven shake stop sending HR activist to jail! Use some leniency. If you can resist to Jail someone use house arrest or something similar, send him abroad.
I personally found the file of Hu Jia wife isolated with a small kid in her house deeply enraging!

Torch Relay: “We are going to run the torch through the city no matter what”. You are just asking for trouble. Try reach first the city authorities and representants of protest groups. Some of them are amenable. You will get protest either but not so dramatic. Could turn violent actions easier against them too.

Robotic goons: Make them human. TV interviews. Family background, their feelings about the torch,
how they were selected. Build a human story around them. Use as much TV footage as possible to deflect accusation of heavy handed behavior.

TB: Open it to foreign media. I repeat, open it to foreign media. Use embedded reporters, join CH+foreign teams whatever you like.

And yes, you would get still a lot of flak. Keep smiling and do not get nervous…

First time always the same everywhere… ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 7:39 am | Comment

@CCT
I too wish we could leave the horse to his eternal reward, but I don’t think you’re giving our world enough credit.

Simply having a good PR department is not going to make the difference.

The lack of freedom of speech, religion, and politics, etc., and the imperialism and imperialist rhetoric over Tibet and Taiwan will not ever be ‘spinnable’ to in the free and developed world. You have to consider that some of us *do* appreciate the considerable improvements to the quality of life of Main Land Chinese made under the PRC, but at the same are unsettled by the imperialism, and turned off by the divergent ideals concerning personal freedoms, even if you are right and they are necessary for the continued improvement of the state.

We have not all bought Snow’s view that the CCP is irredeemably evil, but there are things about the way the country is run that just can’t be shrugged off by many if not most people raised and educated in the English world.

So I think you are making a mistake to confuse all the criticisms of the CCP and antipathy for the Beijing Olympics as the result of either stupidity or malice. We don’t just hate China; for good or for ill, these issues really are that big of a deal for our cultures.

April 24, 2008 @ 7:45 am | Comment

Imperialism? Like Iraq? Like all of America’s states?

Really, the “imperialist” accusations are just as bad a move as the “Dalai Clique” accusations.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:02 am | Comment

>Imperialism? Like Iraq?

Once again, the key difference between the actions of the United States in Iraq and China’s in Tibet is that the United States is not advocating the movement of white settlers into Iraq in the way that China encourages Han settlers to move into non-Han regions and outnumber the locals. In this respect, Chinese actions in Xinjiang using the “Bingtuan” and also in Tibet more resemble the swamping of the native Americans in the 1800′s than the Iraq War.

Also, the fact that current Chinese activities in Tibet can be compared to the actions of a previous generation of Americans does not exonerate the Chinese; in fact, I find it rather amusing when Chinese use the comparison as a defence of Beijing, since the end result is to link the fate of the native Americans to that of the Tibetans in the mind of the American left, which helps the “Free Tibet” crowd ;)

The Dalai Lama should be paying you lot.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:10 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

I assume that you have not read the article published in the 1999 Atlantic Monthly by Peter Hessler.

http://tinyurl.com/6rxo4j

The description in that article matches well with what I know of the Chinese policy towards Tibet as well as the general population’s views and perspectives of Tibet as well.

I am curious if you would still describe han Chinese’s presence in Tibet in the same way after reading it.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:28 am | Comment

Just FYI, boycott aside… lots of netizens in China are watching the CNN livestream right now of the Olympic torch relay in Canberra.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/live/live.html?stream=stream2

April 24, 2008 @ 8:30 am | Comment

the way that China encourages Han settlers

Source? Once again, you overestimate how strongly people adhere to the bullshit “Han” classification. Instead America kills 5% of the population, leaves another 25% homeless, steals all their resources worth anything, and leaves them with a shitty government. That’s just FIVE years into it, mind you, there’s more blood to come.

Chinese actions in Xinjiang

Who cares? Xinjiang is not Turkic land. It only became “theirs” once they pretty much slaughtered everyone else.

in fact, I find it rather amusing when Chinese use the comparison as a defence of Beijing

Less straw man. I didn’t compare Tibet to America; I just said America is *worse* in its treatment of indigenous peoples.. and yet they still want to bitch, piss, moan and whine?

It makes it fairly obvious then (aside from your own admission) that you don’t give a shit about the Tibetans, or the Hopi, or the Yakuts, and the only reason why you’re selectively targetting a more benign colony shows that it’s all geopolitics and 0% humanity, as is the standard with the British and Americans.

In that case, the answer to “Free Tibet” is “I dare you to try”.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:30 am | Comment

*and shows that the only reason you’re selectively targetting a more benign colony is geopolitics

April 24, 2008 @ 8:32 am | Comment

@ DJ:

Yeah, I’ve read it. What particular part of it are you getting at?

Please note that I wasn’t saying myself that there were exact parallels… only that many Chinese insist on making the comparison, bizarrely enough in an attempt to defend Beijing’s actions in a classic “to quoque” fallacy that is certain to turn granola-crunching hippies into die-hard Free Tibet activists.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:32 am | Comment

>I just said America is *worse* in its treatment of indigenous peoples

Really? To the best of my knowledge, Native Americans are free to organise and express themselves politically in the United States; needless to say, this is not the case in China, where even the display of the Tibetan flag can land you in jail (which is curious, given that according to China, Tibet has been always been an inalienable part of China; if so, is the Tibetan flag not the flag of a Chinese province and therefore completely kosher? Ah well, cognitive dissonance :P )

On what criteria do you judge Tibetans to be better treated by the Chinese government than Native Americans by the US? I’m actually curious.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:41 am | Comment

>the only reason why you’re selectively targetting a more benign colony shows that it’s all geopolitics and 0% humanity, as is the standard with the British and Americans.

Or rather with China, as the fate of Zimbabwe would seem to demonstrate. :(

April 24, 2008 @ 8:43 am | Comment

… And it’s mostly a sea of red so far in Canberra. Ah, there’s one protester tackled and arrested.

It’s amazing how relaxed security looks, compared to all of the previous stops! Looks like the Aussies knew something I didn’t know.

So far, so good.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:44 am | Comment

To the best of my knowledge, Native Americans are free to organise and express themselves politically in the United States

Meaningless cow dung. If they had their way they’d kick 30 million nasty Brits out of their land. Instead they get a joke of a system where they are both neglected while anything significant that can come of protests is crushed by a foreign majority.

The situation of Tibet, in that sense, is very “democratic”.

On what criteria do you judge Tibetans to be better treated by the Chinese government than Native Americans by the US?

Gaps in life expectancies, HDI and income.

Or rather with China, as the fate of Zimbabwe would seem to demonstrate. :(

China didn’t colonize Zimbabwe. How’s Saudi Arabia these days?

April 24, 2008 @ 8:49 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

I am referring to your comment quoted below:

“Once again, the key difference between the actions of the United States in Iraq and China’s in Tibet is that the United States is not advocating the movement of white settlers into Iraq in the way that China encourages Han settlers to move into non-Han regions and outnumber the locals.”

Peter Hessler’s article made it clear that han Chinese’s presence in Tibet in general is not due to a grand scheme of settling large population over by the government but due to simple economic force. People flow on their own to places where opportunities are present.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:50 am | Comment

@CCT

Thanks for the pointer to the video stream. I tuned in just in time to see that one protester rushing over and sitting down in front of the runner.

And I share the same impression that it wasn’t bad overall.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:54 am | Comment

>The situation of Tibet, in that sense, is very “democratic”.

So you do agree that the purpose of Chinese settlement in Tibet is to dilute the indigenous population?

>Meaningless cow dung. If they had their way they’d kick 30 million nasty Brits out of their land.
>30 million nasty Brits

I think you need to do a recount! :P In any case, I don’t believe you are qualified to judge whether or not Native Americans wish to see the white population “repatriated”, since they can express their own sentiments themselves, thanks to the first amendment.

>Gaps in life expectancies, HDI and income.

I’d like to see the stats, I’m not saying you’re wrong outright, although I would be surprised if literacy in Tibet is higher than among Native Americans.

>China didn’t colonize Zimbabwe.

No, but China did give ZAPU and ZANU guns and money, and has defended the Mugabe regime to the hilt ever since he came to power. Without China, he would not have come to or survived in power this long, much like Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot, and many other charming killers of millions Beijing has been in bed with lately.

>How’s Saudi Arabia these days?

Saudi’s a nasty piece of work, I’d agree, and personally I despise them and wish the US would cut ties with them, given their links to terrorism and whatnot. Nevertheless, unlike Mugabe, the NorK Kims, and Pol Pot, the Saudis don’t look that bad. Of course, that’s not saying very much.

April 24, 2008 @ 8:59 am | Comment

I fail to see how the Saudis don’t “look that bad” compared to Mugabe. The Kims and Pol Pot, I guess I’ll give that to you.

When you despise the Saudis and “wish the US would cut ties with them”… what do you do when the US national anthem plays at a baseball/basketball/football game?

Because you know, right when they’re hitting that high note (after “land of the free”)… that’s a great time to scream out “United States out of Saudi Arabia!”

April 24, 2008 @ 9:02 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

One more thing, if China’s intention is to move enough han Chinese to Tibet to outnumber the locals, isn’t it counter-productive to strongly enforce the one-child policy on the han Chinese only and place no such restriction on Tibetans? The population count of the Tibetans have dramatically increased in the past decades. In fact, my understanding is that the share of non-han Chinese collectively in all of China has increased from 4% to near 10% now. (I forgot the source on that, anyone?)

BTW, I am not sure if there is completely no limit at all on Tibetans in terms of population control or there is a small fine on the 4th children born to a couple.

April 24, 2008 @ 9:09 am | Comment

>I fail to see how the Saudis don’t “look that bad” compared to Mugabe.

Mugabe’s policies have resulted in the starvation of 2 million Zimbabweans. A further 20-odd thousand Ndebele civilians were killed by the North Korean-trained Firth Brigade during Mugabe’s campaign to stamp out ZAPU in Matabeleland. ZANU-PF have made sub-Saharan Africa’s richest country on a per-capita basis one of Africa’s poorest.

April 24, 2008 @ 9:10 am | Comment

New Rules for Expats: 30-Day Visas Only.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/23/news/23expats.php

Let’s hope this isn’t true.

April 24, 2008 @ 9:25 am | Comment

@DJ

“BTW, I am not sure if there is completely no limit at all on Tibetans in terms of population control or there is a small fine on the 4th children born to a couple.”

R u sure? How do they define “couple”? I saw BBC documentary “one year in Tibet”. A Tibetan woman in Gyanze delivered her fifth child. She also has three husbands, all brothers.

Would that be 3 kids allowed per brother?

April 24, 2008 @ 9:26 am | Comment

@Cao Meng De

Re: “R u sure”?

Didn’t I say “I am not sure”? :-)

Hmm, the government should be more concerned with the marriage arrangement than the number of kids if this case is brought up. But I imagine they probably wouldn’t bother with them.

April 24, 2008 @ 9:45 am | Comment

I don’t think it’s government’s business to interfere with anyone’s marriage arrangement, esp, when practice of polyandry is part of traditional Tibet marriage arrangement, along with monogamy and polygamy.

April 24, 2008 @ 9:55 am | Comment

“Instead America kills 5% of the population, leaves another 25% homeless, steals all their resources worth anything, and leaves them with a shitty government.”

“I just said America is *worse* in its treatment of indigenous peoples.”

Ferin, you are American, it’s your people who did it.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:04 am | Comment

@Cao Meng De

I wonder, would you equally feel comfortable of the marriage arrangement if it is the other way around? (i.e. one man and three wives)

Frankly, I have no difficulty imagining that Tibetan woman’s case was due to those three brothers having no choice but to share one wife. If the arrangement is the other way around, I would not be so sure about.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:07 am | Comment

@Johnny

I agree this visa news is bad news for many.

That said, the reporter also stated: “In the past few years China has had a fairly lax attitude toward foreign residents, many of whom live and hold down jobs without proper work visas.”

Eventually this situation needs to be changed. The timing and suddenness, however, are the real problems.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

@DJ

Would I be oppose to have a large harem of nubile women if it’s legally and financially feasible?

A real tough choice.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

So you do agree that the purpose of Chinese settlement in Tibet is to dilute the indigenous population?

How can you “dilute” the Tibetans when Han Chinese (or any other ethnic group for that matter) can hardly survive that altitude? Tibetans have genetically adapted over thousands of years to survive extremely high altitudes.

That, and what needs “diluting”, they’re practically the exact same race for god’s sake. Even the most alarmist sources say that Tibetan culture isn’t at risk of being destroyed. Tibet’s share of the population is *rising* relative to the various Han groups (who are being ethnically cleansed by the one-child policy).

That, and Tibetans are also free to go wherever they wish in China. It’s not as if they’re sitting on some melting glacier about to be swallowed up by oceans of Han invaders or something. Though that would create a cute picture for whiny latte-sipping liberals to cry over.

Besides, a nationwide “referendum” or some other BS exercise in moron-assclown politics is enough to “legitimize” the continued occupation of Tibet. It was enough to rush a colossal Mideast war at least.

I think you need to do a recount! :P

The rest are Germans, Irish, Italians, Poles, Swedes, etc. Then there are the Mexicans, blacks, Chinese, etc.

I don’t believe you are qualified to judge whether or not Native Americans

Most of them hate white people for good reason.

the Saudis don’t look that bad.

The only reason why Saudi Arabia is functional is because there is so much oil there that the monarchs and theocrats can only suck so much blood and oil before some of it dribbles off of their chins and onto the rest of the country.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:26 am | Comment

Ferin, you are American, it’s your people who did it.

You’re actually right. Every single person living and working in America takes some short of stake in all the blame.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:28 am | Comment

**sort

April 24, 2008 @ 10:29 am | Comment

>Most of them hate white people

How do you know? And, once again, it COULD be true for all I know; but I wonder at how you could possibly be certain of this one way or the other.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:35 am | Comment

What some so-called pro-Tibetan groups in the West do not want you to see, The BBC documentary of ordinary Tibetans living in Tibet:

One Year in Tibet

April 24, 2008 @ 10:42 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

Glad that you are back. I would still like to hear your answer to my question, that if you would continue to claim there is a grand scheme by the Chinese government to settle han-Chinese in Tibet to outnumber the locals.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:43 am | Comment

I know at least 34% of the women hate them:

http://tinyurl.com/3ezedz

One in three Native American women will be raped at some point in their lives

More than 86 percent of rapes against Native American women are carried out by non-native men, most of them white, according to the Justice Department.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:43 am | Comment

Peanut Butter accuses China of supporting Martians kidnapping citizens of the free world for nefarious experimentation in their Chinese made UFO!

April 24, 2008 @ 10:47 am | Comment

ferin,

No, I don’t take blame for Bush and his acts. It’s the fault of 50.1% of voters. I belong to the other camp.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:51 am | Comment

>Peanut Butter accuses China of supporting Martians kidnapping citizens of the free world for nefarious experimentation in their Chinese made UFO!

LOLWUT

April 24, 2008 @ 10:54 am | Comment

@DJ:

I believe the Chinese government is encouraging it, yes. I see it as a slightly less transparent version of China’s policies in Xinjiang.

April 24, 2008 @ 10:56 am | Comment

lol, please tell me what settling Han into Tibet would accomplish for the CCP, aside from moving cheap labor in to develop the region.

are they going to vote the Tibetans into submission? express their democratic rights or something?

April 24, 2008 @ 10:58 am | Comment

@Cao
You’re welcome, but it wasn’t so much a compliment as it was a statement that I don’t find your vision of a world with a PRC superpower as repulsive as I do CCT’s and others (no offense, to anyone). If your desired PRC (or perhaps you’re imagining a whole different incarnation of China) comes to pass, I think I could happily live with it.

@Everyone Else
Remember how I predicted that the Nagano torch relay might not be the triumphant ‘sea of red’? Not to gloat, but another obstacle has reared it’s ugly head.
http://tinyurl.com/5jbgvu

April 24, 2008 @ 10:58 am | Comment

>lol, please tell me what settling Han into Tibet would accomplish for the CCP

End forever the (admittedly remote) possibility of Tibet ever gaining autonomy or independence at any point in future.

April 24, 2008 @ 11:03 am | Comment

End forever the (admittedly remote) possibility of Tibet ever gaining autonomy or independence at any point in future.

That already happened. Besides, Han Chinese can be Tibeticized.

April 24, 2008 @ 11:05 am | Comment

Has anyone of you ever read this book”

The Shadow of the Dalai Lama

http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE

I actually went through it online, fascinating and nauseasting read.

April 24, 2008 @ 11:10 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

Re: “I believe the Chinese government is encouraging it, yes.”

Could you elaborate on what evidence you have that leads to your belief?

The only policy I know of is to provide incentives to encourage han-Chinese of much needed skills (i.e. medical and educational) to work for a few years in Tibet. These people in general do not move their family over and return home afterward. It doesn’t sound like an effective population settlement scheme to me.

April 24, 2008 @ 11:12 am | Comment

@Middle Finger Kingdom

I bookmarked that book a couple of weeks ago but never had the time to read it. Care to provide a quick summary?

April 24, 2008 @ 11:16 am | Comment

DJ,

The summary is that the DL practices 2 forms of Buddhism: the public one – the compassionate Buddhism, as practiced by most Buddhists in the world and what is seen by the public, the private one is Tantric Buddhism – the real Tibetan Buddhism they practice that involve all sorts of magic and spells. According to the authors, the DL is attempting to subjugate and rule the West and world through the practice of the second Buddhism. Think of what he’s practicing as a Buddist Fundamentalism.

This guy is literally casting charm spells on any westerner he meets, and thus explains his success and popularity in the West. But magic and tricks don’t work on the CCP, the CCP call the kettle the black when they see one, thus the name calling of the DL as a “wolf in monk’s clothing”

April 24, 2008 @ 11:32 am | Comment

…….

LOL

April 24, 2008 @ 11:50 am | Comment

Ferin,

It’s no lie, you gotta read this book for yourself. It’s written by two Europeans a few years ago. I’m not making all this up, and strangely, they really really explain a lo of what’s happening.

I’ve come to the conclusion that the CCP doesn’t want to meet the DL cuz once the CCP officials make eye contacts with the DL, the CCP as we know it is over.

April 24, 2008 @ 11:55 am | Comment

Wouldn’t it be nice if Dalai Lama can convert large chunk of western population into Tibetan Buddhism? It seems he is on the way there. After that the Buddhism Holy land will truely become the international territory and China will not be able to claim as her own.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:02 pm | Comment

bandw,

yup, by then the world is one, no more nation-states, and the DL or one of his future incarnations will rule the world in a buddocracy, which I surmise will be slightly better than fascism in its heydays

April 24, 2008 @ 12:09 pm | Comment

@Ferin
“Imperialism? Like Iraq? Like all of America’s states?

“Really, the “imperialist” accusations are just as bad a move as the “Dalai Clique” accusations.”

I think you’re confusing me with Amban or Mor or somebody else. If you look back at some of my past posts, Ferin, you’ll see that I’ve been arguing that the PRC’s imperialism in Tibet is such a big deal to the free world, precisely because of our own imperialism, not in spite of it.

April 24, 2008 @ 12:19 pm | Comment

If have read the Shadow of DL?

Well, the way this discussion is going, it wouldn’t surprize me if you started quoting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:04 pm | Comment

UFOs? The DL casting spells? Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Man, the stuff you miss by not paying attention to this blog for a mere few hours. :-)

April 24, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

Whatever China tries, don’t emulate American suburban cities, the Americans are now realizing the downside of their suburban cities, they are mostly very inconvenient, one can’t get anything done without driving, even to buy groceries. It’s very wasteful of land, they don’t combine businesses and residential very well in suburbs. Hong Kong is a bit better since they have to consider shops and schools before putting people in, and people wouldn’t move into a suburbs if public transportations can’t get there.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:41 pm | Comment

The American models of suburbs are awful for the elderly to live, they are isolated from their friends and social activities, they can’t live independently because they can no longer drive.

April 24, 2008 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

I think you’re confusing me with Amban or Mor or somebody else.

I think I might have misread your post as someone else’s, sorry.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:06 pm | Comment

@Lime,

So I think you are making a mistake to confuse all the criticisms of the CCP and antipathy for the Beijing Olympics as the result of either stupidity or malice. We don’t just hate China; for good or for ill, these issues really are that big of a deal for our cultures.

I wouldn’t describe it as either stupidity or malice. I’m more inclined to describe it as arrogance and a lack of historical perspective. I don’t mean to be insulting, but I believe the majority of Westerners have very little perspective into the state of the world outside of their corner of it. (I’d say many Chinese in China have little perspective about the outside world.)

I believe *most* (certainly not all) Westerners can’t give the correct answer to a very simple question: why do people emigrate to North American and Western Europe. I believe they don’t have any perspective into what the Chinese people want.

Shortly before the SF relay, I hung around several forums where locals were discussing the relay + protests. I’d venture to guess that 99% of locals in San Francisco who considered themselves informed had zero clue that the vast majority of Chinese (both inside and outside of China) supported the Chinese government on the Tibet issue, on the Olympics issue, and on the general status of life and government in China.

I hope that number has slightly changed… but I’d still venture to guess that 90%+ of Western Europeans and North Americans *still* don’t realize their understanding of the Chinese mindset, and how the Chinese feel about their government and their country, is about 180 degrees off-base.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:19 pm | Comment

CCT,

Interested in knowing how the Australian leg of the torch relay went?

http://www.smh.com.au or http://www.abc.net.au

April 24, 2008 @ 2:20 pm | Comment

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au

has also covered the relay

April 24, 2008 @ 2:26 pm | Comment

@Rich,

I’ve read all of the news reports as well as watched the actual relay, thanks. Don’t forget the Sydney Morning Herald, which is my favorite Aussie paper.

As far as negative characterizations of the actions of Chinese supporters… frankly, I’m used to it. I was at the relay in San Francisco, and I barely recognized the description of what happened in the media over subsequent days.

I’ve long ago become numb to the type of coverage given in the Western press. The priority in my mind is what we, the Chinese people, do and feel about the issue. I’ve never thought China could possibly depend on the good-will of the Western world to preserve our interests… that’s a theme I’ve repeated on this blog for months, long before these recent cultural clashes.

And I continue to be warmed and enthused by the unity and passion the Chinese people are showing. There is definitely hope for our country.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:35 pm | Comment

@johnny:
only 30-days visas, double entry max, it’s true and very inconvenient for lots of people. some countries’ nationals are not issued visas at all at the moment.

I was told that only after the olympics they will issue long term visas again. but there already is massive protesting from businessmen and chambers of commerce.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment

Now that the Australian leg of the Torch relay had gone relatively well, it’s probably safe to assume that the rest of the relay journey should go ok.

And looking back on this olympic torch relay what most people will remember about it is the protest in Paris and London. Yup, Paris will live infamy for 1.3 billion Chinese forever.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment

@CCT

I’m more inclined to describe it as arrogance and a lack of historical perspective.

Call me arrogant, but I have discovered that many mainland students in the West are not only woefully ignorant of the outside world, but of their own country’s history. This especially holds true for students in engineering and in the natural sciences. The fact that the same historical event can be interpreted in different ways, depending on how you contextualize them, is entirely lost on them. You hear them talk about Qing policies towards Xinjiang or Tibet as if these policies had anything to do with current PRC policy at all. They argue that China has always been a multicultural country, but they scoff at the idea that this multicultural history has anything to learn from non-Chinese language sources, such as Manchu, Tibetan, Mongol or Turkic.

I’d venture to guess that 99% of locals in San Francisco who considered themselves informed had zero clue that the vast majority of Chinese (both inside and outside of China) supported the Chinese government on the Tibet issue, on the Olympics issue, and on the general status of life and government in China.

99% of the Chinese of expressed their opinion openly, that is. A meaningless unanimity, since dissenting voices are suppressed, as we have learned.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:43 pm | Comment

“in their Chinese made UFO!”

Knew that that strange joint venture was going to have unexpected results.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:57 pm | Comment

@Amban,

I’d argue that people just about everywhere, especially engineers who don’t study and debate history, don’t quite understand that “the same historical event can be interpreted in different ways”. Certainly true for mainland Chinese. How many Americans still think Abraham Lincoln fought the Civil War to end slavery?

But really, your problem is that even when mainland Chinese are taught that “the same historical event can be interpreted in different ways”… so what? Does it really change the interpretation?

I think the idea of China as a “multi-cultural” nation is more or less a novel invention of the 20th century… for that matter, even the concept of “nation” is more or less a 20th century invention for China.

99% of the Chinese of expressed their opinion openly, that is. A meaningless unanimity, since dissenting voices are suppressed, as we have learned.

Sorry, doesn’t work like that. Wang Qianyuan was targeted because she spoke English in front of an American group supporting a Free Tibet, not because she had a differing opinion. In case you still haven’t figured it out, in case you still haven’t bothered to go to a Chinese BBS, *all* of these political and social opinions are debated openly.

So, my suggestion to you is that you end the wishful thinking. On these specific issues, Chinese public opinion overwhelmingly falls in one direction.

April 24, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

Amban,

dissenting voices in China only gets in the way of our quest for global hegemony. If the CCP and Chinese people know that liberal demoracy is the best way to reach such a goal, I think there would’ve been democracy in China by now. But in the meantime and real world, how China progresses right now will have to do for now.

Therefore, all those Chinese engineers or what not will have to remain “ignorant”, but they damn well know it has to be this way for now

April 24, 2008 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

Cathy, interestingly, American suburbs may become the new slums, precisely because they are so car-dependent, lack services and amenities. Property values are holding steady and rising in many urban areas, in spite of the real estate slump. Towns with actual centers and suburbs that are directly adjacent to large cities are doing well too. But the exurbs are tanking, and there’s a very good chance they will continue to do so.

I live in a place where I can walk to nearly everything I need, and I love that. Apparently many other Americans are coming to the same conclusions, moving back into downtowns that had suffered greatly before, during the suburban exodus.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:09 pm | Comment

“Now that the Australian leg of the Torch relay had
gone relatively well,”

Some minor problems in Japan maybe, but you are almost done. It has been quite a trip. Eh?

I am curious to see how it does in TW. Maybe all the mesh will make it to be better received there now than before.

Curious to know about VN too.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:10 pm | Comment

PR Tip…

If CH puts Jin Jing in the opening ceremony you are going to make it hard for French officials to boycott it. ;-)

Maybe have effects on other countries too.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

@ecodelta,

Torch isn’t going to Taiwan. 2 months ago I was desperately hoping it still could… but now, frankly, I’m glad we get to avoid that particular political scene.

Torch will do fine in Vietnam; the Vietnamese government will make sure of it. I think there will be protests in South Korea and Japan, but they’ll be peaceful and restrained.

The torch will be back on Chinese soil soon… and it will truly be a sight to see, then. (But probably a sight the Western media won’t really pay attention to.)

April 24, 2008 @ 3:15 pm | Comment

@Amban

I am not sure if you understood CCT right as he said “I’d venture to guess that 99% of locals in San Francisco who considered themselves informed had zero clue that the vast majority of Chinese (both inside and outside of China) supported the Chinese government on the Tibet issue, on the Olympics issue, and on the general status of life and government in China.” The 99% figure refers to Americans in SF.

Now, as you put: “99% of the Chinese of expressed their opinion openly, that is. A meaningless unanimity, since dissenting voices are suppressed, as we have learned,” how do you account for CCT and I? We are both in the thirties and have lived in the US for 20 years. Do the math; we have spent more than 2/3 of our conscientious lives out of the reach of the CCP. Are you serious in accusing us and all these Chinese outside of mainland for speaking up now because we are pleasing our master in Beijing? On the other hand, where are the deafening dissenting voices by those Chinese outside of China? By your logic, that would surely be more than 1% originated overseas, right?

April 24, 2008 @ 3:23 pm | Comment

@otherlisa

I like the German model. Use small towns center as ca ore to provide a service center. The suburban areas cluster around former all towns.

Pedestrian area downtown. Good public transportation system and even industrial areas close to them. When I was working there did not need to use the car at all to go to work, shopping or to the movies, schools hospitals an other facilities reasonable nearby. Only needed car for long trips. Population is also more evenly distributed across the country.

Have good only for bicycle paths, through forests, streets and parks. Quite a blast. Good for health, weight and CO2 emissions…

Would rather use that model in CH. They have good city planers and designers in Germany.
But I fear they are too much fixated in US model.

Last time I was in Orlando, they guys in Disney were building fake downtown areas similar to european small town, only for pedestrians.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

@CCT
“Torch isn’t going to Taiwan. 2 months ago I was desperately hoping it still could… but now, frankly, I’m glad we get to avoid that particular political scene.”

Hhhmmm… That is a pity. No chance now to make a detour given the new political situation in TW?

If well organized could have some good positive effect for TW CH relations. Did you see the ROC flags in SF?

April 24, 2008 @ 3:32 pm | Comment

I have a question: what is the ratio of lamas in Tibet vs. the population, at various historical points and now? And do they produce anything beside, you know, “spiritual” stuff?

One thought crossed my mind as those Burmese monks (and there were a lot of them in the pictures) were making the news not too long ago: it certainly wouldn’t be too healthy for a society/culture if there is a non-trivial fraction of the population living as “parasite” (for lack of a better word) off the people.

April 24, 2008 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

DJ,

The Tibetan or burmese monks need to adopt a new business model. The buddhist temples in China are thriving, and there was even talks of whether the Henan buddisht temple would go public. After all, the Catholic Church is what, like one of hte biggest land owners in the world.

The Tibetan temples have so much potential if they only care to commercialize them. Maybe that’s why the DL wants to get back to Tibet so bad, he knows where the money’s at.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

@DJ
“And do they produce anything beside, you know, “spiritual” stuff?”
“population living as “parasite” (for lack of a better word) off the people.”

You can see it also in the opposite way. It is also a way to handle excess population on preindustrial societies with limited resources, specially cultivable land. In this way part of society is guarantee a minimum standard of living, relieve pressure from the land.
It also provides an somewhat stable environment were some culture advances can occur or be preserved.
In EU the knowledge of Ancient world was in a good part preserved by the monasteries.

Spiritual stuff is a much needed stuff, specially if you live in a brutal environment. Without it most people would go crazy. People just needed a justification or hope of better life in a brutal universe. Besides we are wired for it. I think it has play an important role in societies survival, even in Human evolution.
Look at the Jews, its religion and spirituality has played a good part in keeping them alive as a people.

Yes. Such systems like all human system can go awry, but do not despise them so fast.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:09 pm | Comment

@ ecodelta,

I have not been to Germany in many years but I always enjoyed the European model of development. It is much more sane for the most part and built to human scale.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:41 pm | Comment

@ecodelta

Oh no I don’t mean to despise them. And the concept you described is something I have long considered as well. I have always felt that most of human history is dominated by an imbalance of resource/productivity vs. essential needs (note I didn’t say demand per se), which in turn produces war and all that goes with it. It is essentially deterministic to see the emergence of the general theme of accepting suffering for redemption/rewards in the after/next life in religions.

On the other hand, isn’t it sad that the call for preservation of the entirety of the culture/religion for people in Tibet is tantamount to asking for lives to stay in the backward days?

BTW, before the retorts come back, I do not consider a superficial preservation paid off by tourist money the real thing. I hope that’s not what those human rights activists demand either.

April 24, 2008 @ 4:44 pm | Comment

@DJ
“On the other hand, isn’t it sad that the call for preservation of the entirety of the culture/religion for people in Tibet is tantamount to asking for lives to stay in the backward days?”

Some people like it that way, look at the Amish for example. I do not consider so bad to have some reserves of spirituality. Need it some times too.

But I rather prefer to reach the post scarcity era like in The Cluture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

In the meantime we are stuck in a Type 0.6 (aprox) civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_Civilization

April 24, 2008 @ 5:18 pm | Comment

“Paris will live infamy for 1.3 billion Chinese forever.”

Hilarious! A thousand years from now, aged Chinese crones will balance their grandchildren on their knees and regale them with tales of Parisian infamy from the dark days of 2008, when such horrors occurred that even the tens of millions who died during the Great Leap Forward or the millions of blighted lives resulting from the Cultural Revolution pale by comparison.

Why do you Chinese xenophobes always write such bollocks?

April 24, 2008 @ 5:54 pm | Comment

@ecodelta

It was just yesterday when I was sitting in a Thai restaurant when I pointed to a painting on the wall of these lovely sights of lots of small boats floating on a narrow river in a marketing place in Thailand, and I said to my colleagues with me, “sometimes I feel those well meaning westerners have the mentality of zoo visitors. Oh aren’t’ these cute/lovely, and let’s preserve them so we can enjoy them the next time we return in a year. But do these Thai people enjoy living their lives that way?”

Actually I concede this might not be the best example for discussion since I can not possible claim to know the Thai people well.

Let’s find another example. I forgot where I read this, but it is very recent. An American’s (with a Chinese wife) had a encounter with people living on house boats in China. He thought those boats were photogenic while his wife reminded him that those people do not enjoy living on a boat with no running water, electricity and sewage but had no choice.

What I mean is, going back to nature and basics is nice and spiritually fulfilling if one comes from the position of having plenty and choose to do so. For people with no choice, it’s entirely a different matter.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:06 pm | Comment

@DJ

You are right that those idyllic pictures of people living “in peace” with the nature may be very misleading. Everything very nice and peaceful until you have a simple case of appendicitis…

But when I say spiritual preservation, I mean voluntary preservation. The Amish comes to my mind in this case. They take what they think is ok for their lives and left the rest.

I am aware of the problem in your example. I new some boat people. The NGO I worked with in VN had a project to help with the new settlement provide by the government and it is not without problems.

Yes, no running water or electricity in the boats. Only the mother and small kids can sleep in the boat at night, the rest of the family must find a place to sleep, usually hiding in the local market shops before the owners come early in the morning.

But now, in their new settlement, they find themselves in a strange environment. Absolute no idea how to live in normal house, no idea how to manage the garbage (the river took care of that..), they are now far away from where they could make some money: begging, selling lottery, scavenging garbage, fishing, extracting sand from the river, selling things to tourist, etc.
The government manage to clear the river but I can not say the situation of this people has improved a lot.

Not easy thing to know what is best and how implement it for people in different environment like our own.

April 24, 2008 @ 6:29 pm | Comment

@DJ

Another case comes to my mind.

There was an expert group visiting Anatolia in Turkey. They told the farmers to take all the stones that covered the crop fields to improve crop yield.

They followed the advice. The result. The crop was detroyed. The stones protected the land and prevented that it lost humidity. Old tradition was much better than advanced agricultural technical knowledge

Be sure not to make similar mistakes in TB.
And about spirituality. In my country we say
“A man does not only need bread to live” (even the poorer ones)

April 24, 2008 @ 6:35 pm | Comment

seems to me the past month has just been a bunch of people shouting progressively higher over the heads of the Tibetan people. is no-one talking to them? does no-one have even a single Tibetan friend?

and ignorance shouts loudest.

April 24, 2008 @ 7:54 pm | Comment

Damn, I get on an airplane after putting up an empty post, then come back online to 190 comments. You’d think I could think of a way to make some money off of this? Maybe charge 1 yuan per comment…?

April 24, 2008 @ 8:26 pm | Comment

@richard

Maybe you could make a book out of it.

Do not forget to mention us in the prologue ;-)

April 24, 2008 @ 9:14 pm | Comment

Check out the Canadian jazz musician in the NY Times article. I bet that pulls the Chinese birds!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/world/asia/24china.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

Cut to Chinese protester in front of Carrefour:

“…stop stealing the china woman! liberate china from western evil fuck boy!”

Cut to scene from the movie “Borat”:

Borat: “I could not hear what this old man was saying. All I could think about was this lovely woman in her red water panties. Who was this C.J.?”

April 24, 2008 @ 10:21 pm | Comment

Richard,

Relax, ur blog’s getting so much posting is cuz of the Tibet Riot. Shame on you for thinking of making money off the misery and tragedy of the Tibetans. Leave that to the DL

April 24, 2008 @ 11:52 pm | Comment

@MFK
“…Leave that to the DL”

Transfer 1 yuan per comment to DL account?

That would be a blast! ;-)

Does he has paypal?

April 25, 2008 @ 12:08 am | Comment

Stinky Finger, are you completely out of your mind now?

April 25, 2008 @ 12:12 am | Comment

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/photos-driving-luxury-cars-to-protest-cnn/

See this is how you recognize the children of people who know how to run a good investment “rathole”

You other little emperors and empresses need to learn how to be more like them. Someday your parents will use their “rathole” investment money to buy you a big house and a new BMW in LA. Look at them admonishing you lazy people in Beijing to work harder the olympics is only a few months away, you better work harder and not disappoint the Little Emperor of Los Angeles this august.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2b7d44ca-108b-11dd-b8d6-0000779fd2ac.html

April 25, 2008 @ 12:18 am | Comment

CCT,

You said waaay above that there are certain things China and the West are finding out about eachother and need to work out if we want to get along er whatever…

But then you said that in the future there would not be the CCP to guide people along and crush them when they get out of line… You said that then China will deal with the world directly instead of through that party…

I know there are probly some American people who are afraid to loose power in the world and so are afraid of Chin’a success. But there are a lot of people who protest the CCP and are not happy with China mainly because the lack of human rights either makes them indignant or makes their own rights feel threatened.

So in the future when there is not CCP, A LOT of criticism will dissipate… At that point the Chinese media will be credible and a powerful force because then if there are some Americans who want to lie about something to hold onto power (like some think they are doing about Iraq…) then we will have a system of truthful reporting that will be good for people and for justice. I think it would be better if things werent globalized and homogenous, but whatever, they are like this now….

My point is that if the CCP goes away and stops crushing people for its own self interest and lying to Chinese people…etc, then you will not have the Werstern world comparing China with North Korea, Burma, Cuba etc…

People like Mia Farrow and… me.. would not have any problem with China if the CCP would stop killing innocent people who think freely, and if they would stop lying to Chinese people creating a false reality for them…..

I’ve said it before… If no CCP, I will welcome China to have whatever I own and I will be a loyal subject, I like China and I like Chinese people (if they can stop worshipping lies)

CCT, can you explain to the Western world why persecute Falun Gong? Yeah I know many Chinese will offer explanation, but do you think that it is possible that the CCP just kill lots of people because it is afraid of Falun Gong popularity and ideals? Under the circumstances of information restriction, how can the Chinese people act normally faced with these subjects? I’m not asking you to explain falun Gong, I am just showing you what the problem is in terms of a lot of Chinese people supporting evil government policies because of the lack of free information. So you can understand the Western ‘bias’ toward human right, the right to know the truth, the right to fair trial, the right to practice belief…… The Falun Gong issue shows clearly that none of this exists in China, so you can understand the Western ‘bias’ cant you?

April 25, 2008 @ 1:14 am | Comment

@Wally Gator

Wally, good old boy, you apparently have never lived in LA. Neither have the person who wrote the China Digital Times aritcle.

Do you know how many people take on huge credit card payment in LA to just lease or buy luxury car?

It’s image thang. After all, it’s Hollywood, baby.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:28 am | Comment

@Wally Gator

btw it’s no secret that there is a large wealthy Chinese contingent in Greater LA area. Have you heard of the little town call Chan Marino…er.. I mean San Marino?

it’s possible that there were few spoiled children of corrupt Chinese official living among us, but if you think most wealthy Chinese in US build their wealth thru corruption in China, I can only say that you are “too simple and sometime naive”.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:35 am | Comment

Volunteer in China: “I was not in fact attacked by a mob”

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/04/24/volunteer_in_ch.php

I imagine this is a letdown for some.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:37 am | Comment

Hey, anyone seen the update on the Carrefour mob incident, seems their has been some major inaccuracies, according to the American teacher himself.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:39 am | Comment

@hualian

Funny how we crossed each other posting to this the previous threads. hehe

April 25, 2008 @ 1:49 am | Comment

haha must’ve read it at the same time.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:56 am | Comment

These bunch of goons and thugs can’t do what’s expected of them right. The slow pace at which it’s developing into another boxer’s rebellion is saddening.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:00 am | Comment

Wang Qianyuan was targeted because she spoke English in front of an American group supporting a Free Tibet, not because she had a differing opinion.

And Chang Ping was targeted because he spoke English in front of an American group as well? Or did we miss anything?

April 25, 2008 @ 2:36 am | Comment

Chinese govt has to stop torturing their people, stop imprisonment of those who have different points of view than the govt and expressed the opinions in the press, if CCP jailed its own citizens for expressing different points of view, in blogs or in papers, wouldn’t the CCP be what Cafferty said as “goons and thugs”? Do the people in China agree with what CCP do to journalists who do investigative reports, they jailed them and forbid them to do their jobs, CCP for a long time wouldn’t admit to their country’s AIDS problems, do the people in China really agree with what CCP do? Are the people too afraid to speak up against suppressing freedom of speech when the CCP doesn’t like what the speech is about?

April 25, 2008 @ 2:42 am | Comment

“Wang Qianyuan was targeted because she spoke English in front of an American group supporting a Free Tibet, not because she had a differeing opinion.”-huh? What’s the point for targeting someone who speaks in English-who cares? It’s what the person says that’s important, the Chinese miss the whole point. How come people in Hong Kong are not as juvenile, do you see the Hong Kong govt comes out to tell people any at all? The govt just stayed out and let people exercise their right to protest and free speech, without escalating it to global level between states. Because Hong Kong has freedom of the press therefore its govt understands not to escalate it to war of words between state department. Have you heard US state department made an announcement or reply on this or commented on this, no, because they would come across as really stupid and childish, and CNN isn’t a mouthpiece for the govt.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:50 am | Comment

@DJ

how do you account for CCT and I? We are both in the thirties and have lived in the US for 20 years. Do the math; we have spent more than 2/3 of our conscientious lives out of the reach of the CCP.

I don’t know you, you account for yourself. But this is my response:

POLICE lost control of angry mobs of Chinese nationals who ran amok threatening or assaulting non-Chinese in the latter stages of the torch relay today.

In angry scenes hundreds of metres away from the torch relay, thousands of Chinese nationals surrounded and scuffled with Tibetan activists near Commonwealth Park, scene of the relay’s final stage.

In one incident, an Australian couple waving a Tibetan flag were mobbed by dozens of Chinese activists on Commonwealth Avenue Bridge.

The Chinese grabbed the flag, threw it off the bridge and began punching the man and woman, aged in their 20s. No police were around.

http://tinyurl.com/6xds5s

This happened “down under,” but if a Chinese crowd is prepared to attack “foreigners” (in their own country) like this, I can imagine what peer pressure within the group can be like.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:52 am | Comment

The CCP needs to allow people to express, and allow freedom of press, otherwise this incident would come again and CCP would know no other way to deal with this, CCP shouldn’t stick their figures into other country’s private companies affairs, that’s what CNN is, a private company, let Chinese journalists criticize, let the citizens criticize, but CCP wasn’t appropriate to stick their finger into this in the first place. CCP came across as childish, immature, and not as a confident govt, so do the Chinese people, they came across as feelings easily get hurt, and hypersensitive. Sorry, but that’s how some of the west view this. Because in the West, commentators often criticize govts, no one is off limits.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:59 am | Comment

@Amban

Re: “I don’t know you, you account for yourself.”

The problem is, you did account for me. You grouped me into that 99% of Chinese whose opinions are meaningless when you said “99% of the Chinese of expressed their opinion openly, that is. A meaningless unanimity, since dissenting voices are suppressed, as we have learned.”

So, how do you justify this 99% claim?

April 25, 2008 @ 3:07 am | Comment

I don’t feel for the Chinese flag, I am Chinese, have never lived in CCP control, Hong Kong was my home and now the US. I don’t get this sentiment, of loving one govt like this, when the govt killed and imprison their own people for disagreeing. I don’t get how cruel some Chinese can be verbally when another Chinese don’t agree, label them as “traitor”, it’s like labeling someone as “goon and thug”, how could Chinese be so cruel and insensitive to other people?!

April 25, 2008 @ 3:10 am | Comment

Too busy to engage a lot today. But just wanted to point out this… Dalai Lama (finally) gives an interview to the Chinese press (Singtao Daily). Says some, but not much:

http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/ChinaNews/31415803.html

April 25, 2008 @ 3:21 am | Comment

@DJ

Nice move. I never claimed that there unanimity among Chinese, I know for a fact that there is a huge variety of opinions among Chinese on the Tibet issue.

What I meant is that this supposed unanimity that CCT and others are touting here is the result of peer pressure. The kind of peer pressure that has now resulted in both verbal and physical violence against Chinese dissenters and “foreigners” in Durham, Ithaca, Sanlitun, Zhuzhou and yesterday in Canberra.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:21 am | Comment

@snow,

I did want to take time out to respond to your earnest attempt to write to me above. I don’t want to be rude (although I really am supposed to be busy today).

So in the future when there is not CCP, A LOT of criticism will dissipate…

I believe that, within reason. But a lot will remain. Look at the conflict that exists today between Russia and Western Europe; relations are not especially warm, is it? I think relations between a democratic China and the West will be even colder than those between Russia and the UK, because our core differences are even greater.

Tibet is the obvious current example. Tolerance for “independent” behavior that can be perceived to hurt society, for another.

As far as Falun Gong, I think the vast majority of Chinese are *not* supportive of a harsh government crackdown, as in the sense that we don’t see the reason behind it. I personally don’t believe the practice Falun Gong should be outlawed in China, and I don’t believe Falun Gong practictioners should be forced away from their belief. I honestly mean that

However, that’s not to say we support Falun Gong. I personally do believe that the Falun Gong organization is cult-like, and as someone who’s not at all religious, I encourage everyone to think very carefully about adopting its beliefs and practices. I believe that Falun Gong activities should be tightly monitored, that direct dangerous behavior (like denying medical care to the young) should be prosecuted under the law, and that the press should actively be involved in exposing the dangers of the faith.

I also have a very negative opinion towards Falun Gong’s political activities over the last 5 years. I understand it’s in “response” to the Communist Party’s oppression, and I guess the theory in their minds is that they want to out-Communist the Communist Party… but really, I find the overwhelming amount of lies and propaganda that the Falun Gong itself has generated to be very disgusting.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:33 am | Comment

@Amban,

Sorry, that sounds as believable as claiming that Americans only resist the teachings of Osama Bin-Ladin because of peer pressure + fear of the Patriot Act.

There are many voices in China on many issues, just as there are many voices in the United States on many issues.

But on the question of whether terrorism against civilian targets in the name of religious fundamentalism can be “justified”… I think the vast majority of Americans will speak basically with one voice.

And on the question of whether China should in any way shape or form allow parts of itself to be separated… I’m not exaggerating when I say the vast majority of Chinese will speak with one voice.

This isn’t a peer pressure issue; it’s a fundamental values issue.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:40 am | Comment

The Dalai isn’t comparable to Osama though, Tsewang Rigzin and the East Turkestan movement are.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:44 am | Comment

@CCT

Nice maneuver. I don’t understand why you draw a parallel between terrorism and separatism. Second, I’m not even talking about support for separatism, I’m talking about the level of tolerance being so low that there mere suggestion by a patriotic columnist that there just might be something wrong about the PRC policy towards Tibet leads to recriminations and CR type rhetoric. Or the mere sight of a light-skinned person leads to violence on the streets of Zhuhai. Or people being attacked in the capital their own country for waving a Tibet flag. It is very clear where the terror is coming from here.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

@snow,

I would also like to comment on your statement: “So in the future when there is not CCP, A LOT of criticism will dissipate… ”

I disagree. It is clearly true that much of the China-bashing we have witnessed recently are due to hatred of communism and CCP. But I also find it rather evident a significant racial undertone behind it as well.

When and if CCP fades away, there will still be these whites that refuse to accept that Chinese could have made it.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:48 am | Comment

@Amban,

You keep talking about “maneuver”, which reinforces my impression that to you that you believe this is some kind of rhetorical game. I’m not trying to “debate” with you, I’m just trying to tell you the facts of the matter… to which you can agree or not. Whether I have managed to convince you that the position is correct, or whether the position is fair, or whether the position is even admirable is of secondary importance to me.

So, do me the favor and tell me if you comprehend what I’m trying to tell you about how the Chinese feel about separatism. If you don’t, I’ll try to make it more clear. If you understand it but you simply don’t think we should feel that way, please, spare me the lecture. Take it to a forum where you have more Chinese listeners… Tianya, perhaps.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:53 am | Comment

@Amban

Re: “What I meant is that this supposed unanimity that CCT and others are touting here is the result of peer pressure.”

So you are saying all my comments and emotion, which match the “supposed unanimity”, are due to peer pressure? Care to tell me where I got the pressure that’s unbeknown to me?

BTW, I never bothered to make comments here or anywhere else until this week. So this hidden peer pressure must have been awesome.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:58 am | Comment

@CCT

I comprehend what you mean, but that doesn’t mean that I agree.

If you understand it but you simply don’t think we should feel that way

You represent yourself, not China, and I disagree with your views. I have talked to enough mainland Chinese and read enough Chinese blogs to realize that there is a diversity of views that is neither covered in mainstream Western media nor in Chinese media. I have heard some of the most acerbic indictments of Chinese nationalism coming from Chinese, in the tradition of Lu Xun, Gu Jiegang and Chen Duxiu.

I appreciate the fact that a lot of Chinese feel an urge to express their views on Tibet, but as long as it is not possible to voice dissent publicly, I am not willing to consider this a truly representative opinion. Yes, by the way, I am stubborn.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:06 am | Comment

@DJ

I never denied the existence of true believers.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:11 am | Comment

CCT,

Yeah, mk… Well the first bit of your answer would have sufficed… I do not think the Falun Gong is lying at all, or dangerous.

I do not know why you hate them so much but we’ll leave that side for a bit cause I just wanted to bring this up with regards to why Western people are “biased” toward “China”.

The Falun Gong issue will be coming up. There are a lot of people who are aware of the brutal crackdown, so I am wondering how some Chinese people will expect to NOT be called goons and thugs AS WELL AS defend the CCP.

I am sure that the persecution of Falun Gong is made out to look like such and such by the propaganda ministry, but it is actually the same as cultural revolution. They simply believe in something that isnt pleasing to the overlords….

people will be going into China to investigate and will find people like Bo Xilai to be leaders of murderous, slanderous persecution, so I want to know how the ultra nationalists will react. Will they be able to admit that CCP IS goons and thugs?

If the CCP can do such atrocity on Falun Gong, should Westerners love CCP? SHould we open our hearts to people who think it is ok to kill people in labour camps like that? Communist persecution is a real issue that the ultra nationalists will have to deal with. They either have to admit they are thigs and goons and be proud of it, or they have to emphasize justice more, stop protecting criminals, stop calling dissidents traitors, and insist on the truth.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:14 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter

If you are around, could you justify why you “believe the Chinese government is encouraging [large scale settlement of han-Chinese to dilute population in Tibet]“?

As you can see with the back and forth between Amban and CCT, it is difficult for people with strongly held but opposite perspectives to agree with each other. I expect the same to be true between you and me because of some of the comments coming from you that I have seen.

Nevertheless, I still expect that we can reasonably debate simple details and facts in this forum, such as this question I am persisting on.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:21 am | Comment

Man, China really IS becoming more like the US everyday:

http://tinyurl.com/5zt42m

Who knew frivolous lawsuits were such a cross-cultural trend?

April 25, 2008 @ 4:32 am | Comment

DJ:”"”"”"”how do you account for CCT and I? We are both in the thirties and have lived in the US for 20 years. Do the math; we have spent more than 2/3 of our conscientious lives out of the reach of the CCP.”"”"”"”

So the two of you spent your ten formative years being indoctrinated by communist ministry of “education”? Do you have contact with your parents? Do you use Chinese media and do you know their connections to party line? Besides even if you spent not one day in China, you can still be affected. Currently, there is no such things as out of reach of CCP unless you really know the way they work. For example here in Canada, recently one of the parliament guys made some comments about Nazi Olypics and the similarities with the CCP highjacked Olympics… Other MP’s are very upset because when things like that are said, the CCP immediately threatens Canada gov’t financially… So one MP is telling the other to shut up and let the CCP do what it does without mentionning it to Canadians…

April 25, 2008 @ 4:36 am | Comment

CCT is right, it is not only peer pressure that fuels the onesidedness…, it is peer pressure+FEAR pressure + indoctrination + the genuine wish to not have the country separated + not having the right to look at the real issue. Sprinkle on top of that a bunch of propaganda and crappy Western journalism and spineless gov’ts, and voila!, you have whats happnin’

CCP propaganda -and the mob mentality that is an extension of that- does not allow Chinese to see the real issues. CCP leeches onto the peoples genuine wish for the country to stay together and uses demonization of “splittists” to form the Chinese peoples opinions for them.

I think Tibetan people just want to have certain rights. They dont want to feel the CCP always breathing down their backs and shooting them in the Himalayas and whatnot. But because of the way the ultra nationalist propaganda mob functions, there is no talk of Tibetans’ grievances, only obsession with “splittism”. If you were to give certain rights to Tibetans, Taiwanese, Honk Kongese, they would love the motherland, but as it is not the motherland is a pent up bag of misinformation.

CCT says that most Chinese do not support the violent crackdown on Falun Gong, but when Chen Yonglin deffected in Australia because his job was to spy on Australian practitioners, the loud Chinese voices were cursing him up, calling him a traitor…..

So I am wondering people who think outside the mob are considered traitors. Aren’t wisdom, rationality, morality, justice………….all more important to China than defending a corrupt political cult? I am not saying democracy is the only answer, even if the CCP was the king, a country can still get rid of a stupid greedy king. But I fear that the Chinese people, even though they know Falun Gong people and other innocent people are being treated brutally, they dont have it in them to care enough……That makes me sad.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:45 am | Comment

@Amban,

Think about what you’re saying. The voices of the vast majority are ignored because there is “peer pressure” (even DJ and myself, of course). On the other hand, you latch onto the isolated voices of “reasonable” commentators in the tradition of Lu Xun, etc, etc.

This isn’t you trying to understand the dominant Chinese mindset. This is you trying to justify your already existing “stubborn” interpretation of the Chinese mindset. The fact that you’re “stubborn” in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise is not exactly something to be proud of; some would even call it brain-washing.

You say there’s criticism of nationalism. (The three writers you quoted didn’t exactly reject the concept of nationalism, by the way.) I certainly agree with that; that voice is loud and significant, despite what you call “peer pressure”.

But that voice is only against *irrational* displays of nationalism. There isn’t a remotely significant voice saying that “one China” isn’t important, that Tibet and Taiwanese independence should be tolerated.

You can continue to be stubborn until the end of your days; it’s your cross to bear, not mine. But just realize that doing so doesn’t mean you’re doing the “liberal” China (you presumably would like to build) any favors; it only means that you are guaranteed to continue to misunderstand China, which means you’re going to continue to be irrelevant in the reconstruction of China.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:46 am | Comment

@CCT

Think about what you’re saying. The voices of the vast majority are ignored because there is “peer pressure” (even DJ and myself, of course).

Could you please quit putting words into my mouth? I never talked about any silent majorities, I talked about silenced dissent and what that means for how we gauge recent outbursts of nationalism. I also note that you have refrained from commenting on the implications of recent incidents.

But that voice is only against *irrational* displays of nationalism. There isn’t a remotely significant voice saying that “one China” isn’t important, that Tibet and Taiwanese independence should be tolerated.

Well, we all know what would happen to any Chinese publicly raising that issue.

it only means that you are guaranteed to continue to misunderstand China

Apparently, there is only one way to understand “China”.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:56 am | Comment

What gets quickly lost in these discussions is the difference, subtle or otherwise, between telling someone “you are wrong” and “I disagree with you”.

Many Chinese are probably not “brainwashed” (no more so than other locales, anyways), but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with or accept their point of view.

From a personal perspective, I think this sort of nationalism is really dangerous. But that doesn’t mean it is fabricated, or imposed from above by a bunch of Beijing bureaucrats- to be honest, for 2 whole years in China I didn’t see too many people captivated by the insomnia cure that is CCTV news. C’mon, give the Chinese some credit- they know it isn’t exactly a shining beacon of objective truth. I am perfectly willing to accept Chinese nationalism as a genuine, mass phenomenon. Even the CCP itself gets scared to hell by it sometimes.

On the other hand, I think this Chinese will have to meet “Western” public sentiment halfway as well, if things are to stay constructive the way forward: accept that many other countries don’t play by the same rules as China does internally, and this will mean continuted criticism/protests on a vocal public level. This is not going to change- from a “Western” perspective, people are not prepared to stifle legal opinion and protest in our own societies because it hurts “Chinese feelings”. The right to protest isn’t limited to being pro-Chinese. God know how much crap gets said about Quebec/Canada in the media (the right wing in the US has a field day with their “socialist” northern neighbours on occasion), but who cares. That’s press, that’s sensationalism, that’s personality politics. That’s the rule of opinionated sound bites. That’s the way things are here, and hopefully more Chinese people will realize it and just learn to half-tune it out like the rest of us have.

Because as far as I know, CNN personalities are not official spokespeople for the United States government, let alone the “West”. It ain’t Xinhua.

April 25, 2008 @ 5:08 am | Comment

Fullerton. Oxnard. Malibu. PCH. 405. sepulveda, century boulevard, LAX. I am quite familiar with LA LA Land.

Imagine the grandparents and parents are growing weary of the children’s “Love me China” protest movement. in the motherland and LA LA Land.

April 25, 2008 @ 5:10 am | Comment

@PB

My feeling is that quite a lot of CH people find themselves in several dichotomies.

Proud of what their country has achieved but at the same time aware of the shortcomings of CCT regime.

Need of recognition form the west, but unable to accept our different view on several issues.

Willing to invite the world to a big coming into society party, but unable to see or understand why we are not so thrilled like them.

Demanding that we are accept their opinions when they differ from ours, but at the same time aware the not all opinions even our own can not be freely expressed in CH, not even if CH people themselves expressed them.

It mus be a confusing time for many.

April 25, 2008 @ 5:28 am | Comment

Ooops that should have been “shortcomings of CCP regime”

Sorry CCT ;-)

April 25, 2008 @ 5:30 am | Comment

@Cathy
“Have you heard US state department made an announcement or reply on this or commented on this, no, because they would come across as really stupid and childish, and CNN isn’t a mouthpiece for the govt.”

You have a point here Cathy. I still have to see an anti-CCTV web page, or the State department calling any director of CCTV, Xinhua or China Daily for their “different ” views on news events.

When I hear that CNN director was called by CH government I raised an eyebrow.

April 25, 2008 @ 5:34 am | Comment

Howard French: The need for unanimity in China exacts a hidden price

A good deal more revealing, though, has been a picture that has emerged during the crisis of a Chinese political system that remains devoted to the manufacture and enforcement, when need be, of unanimity on whatever is deemed a vital question.

Tibet and the Olympics both fit that bill, and saying anything but the “right thing” on either subject just won’t do here.

In fact, if the state doesn’t get you first, one risks having emotional, screaming mobs shouting you down, or worse, instead. People speak solemnly all the time about what “the Chinese people think” and about their feelings, as if unquestioned unanimity were the most natural of things, and moreover a conferral of moral legitimacy.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/24/asia/letter.php

April 25, 2008 @ 5:37 am | Comment

Ha Eco, you said CCT regime!!! So funny, no offense CCP,,uhh,T,,, just kidding (- :

April 25, 2008 @ 5:47 am | Comment

@snow

I…. must…. confess…. I did it on purpose. Well… not 100%.

I did realize my mistype error, was going to correct it, when the thought just crossed my mind….. Then I wrote second post. ;-)

No offense meant CCT. ;-)
(no mistype this time..)

April 25, 2008 @ 5:56 am | Comment

How can China ever have a just society? As just and lawful and with respect to human dignity as possible, if Chinese keep using the old excuses to justify govt tactics to monitor, to suppress their citizens, for the sake of keeping the country together, what kind of country is that? Are Chinese really just complacent as long as they are making money, have food, and have clothes, and can surf the web? Are they complacent and wouldn’t rise up to govt injustice? Just for the sake of holding the country together? Where is the human conscience in Chinese people?! China would NEVER gain respect from the West, no matter how economically strong China becomes, if CCP keep suppressing their journalists and citizens to express displeasures with them.

April 25, 2008 @ 5:57 am | Comment

In fact, if the state doesn’t get you first, one risks having emotional, screaming mobs shouting you down, or worse, instead

More BS from an idiot trying to speak for all Chinese people. All Chinese people are ultranationalists! WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH

April 25, 2008 @ 5:57 am | Comment

Need of recognition form the west, but unable to accept our different view on several issues.

Rather, a desire for even handed reporting and less self-serving crocodile tears from dishonest politicians on human rights abuses. Sarko and Hillary care about China’s human rights? Get real.

Willing to invite the world to a big coming into society party, but unable to see or understand why we are not so thrilled like them.

And annoyed at a lack of consistency or sophistication.

Demanding that we are accept their opinions

Please clarify “their opinions”. I wasn’t aware they’re all a part of a hive-mind. I thought Chinese people could be individuals but I might be wrong, maybe only the Great Aryan Master Race is capable of this.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:01 am | Comment

@PB

I find your post quite reasonable and it is a good basis for further discussion in the forum of this kind.

@Amban and Snow

Now what you are saying is insulting, pure and simple.

Just because I do not conform with your views, I must have been the product of “peer pressure” or the long reach of “CCP indoctrination”? When did I resort to these type of tactics against you or anyone else?

Why do you have such a difficulty accepting that Chinese people could genuinely care for China’s interest without being “true believer”s? Why is sporting positions in conflict with the established western ones automatically a sign of lacking enlightenment?

Let me repeat: I am a Chinese and my perspectives reflect my care of Chinese national interest. You have no ground to question me on this and I see no need to justify it either.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:05 am | Comment

This is really funny!

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSPEK30866720080424?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

Apparently legal torts and rule of law is still a new concept that the chinese have not quite gotten the hang of.

Anyone out there own a pet harmed by tainted pet food from China? apparently the Chinese government supports your right to bring forth a lawsuit.

1.3B chinese people each owe you $1 meiyuan and that’s not a lot of money.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:06 am | Comment

Not trying to warm up to Japan, but Japan has certain respect from the West because their govt treat their own people a lot better than Chinese treat their own people. Mainland Chinese complain that their fellow Chinese don’t treat each other well enough, the way the migrant workers are treated, the way the poor people are treated, yet every mainland Chinese allow this to happen! Even if Japan is not doing well economically, the west still respect them more. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, other Chinese in developed places, are much happier than mainland Chinese, I think, they could criticize they could protest, they could voice their opinions without the fear of putting into jail. Any people with conscience and independent mindset would be extremely frustrated living in China. I don’t include Hong Kong in this.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:07 am | Comment

Typical, millions of Chinese children have died from foreign electronic waste and all you can talk about is Fido.

Boo hoo :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( : ( =( :’(

April 25, 2008 @ 6:09 am | Comment

*pollution from foreign electronic waste

April 25, 2008 @ 6:10 am | Comment

About large scale settlement of Han-Chinese to dilute population in Tibet.

Many Tibetan supporters points to the population statics of “Greater Tibet” as evidence that Han is outnumbering Tibetans.

This is rather misleading.

Take Qinghai which roughly correspond to Tibetan Amdo.

First of all, before “liberation” of 1950s, DaLai Lama’s political authority did not extend beyond what is currently Tibetan Autonomous Region.

Qinghai was under “Ma armies” of Muslim war lords Ma Bufang. Eastern Kham had been similarly under control of Chinese warlord. These areas, particularly Qinghai, are cultural frontiers between Han, Muslims, various Turko-Mongol groups such as Yughurs, DongXiang, Kazaks and Mongols, and had traditionally diverse mix of population.

I do not know the historic reason for including agricultural valley around Xining into Qinghai. The heavily Han and Muslim Hui area around Xining makes demograhic of Qinghai look very skewered with Han making up 54% whereas Tibetans stands around 20%.

Take away the densely populated Xining valley and mostly non-Tibetan area of Qaidam Basin (which btw is where most mineral and possibly oil wealth is located), you will see that Tibetan herdsmen still dominate the pastures of Qinghai/Amdo.

As for government sponsorship of Han migration into Tibetan, I think we need to examine two different periods.

In the period from 1950s up to and thru Cultural Revolution, Chinese government definitely send many Han Chinese esp professionals into Tibet and Tibetan areas of Qinghai, Gansu and Sichuan under the banners of helping with minority area development.

Mom and Dad were among these young college graduates from across China that were shipped out to Tibetan areas of Sichuan. They didn’t really have a choice in terms of where they are being assign to esp since both of my Grandpas were affiliated with the defeated Nationalists and were send to labor camps during that time.

Mom worked as a nurse at medical stations on high-altitude pastures of Aba (Ngawa) Tibetan and Qiang Autonomous Prefecture and later was transfered to Ganzi (Garzê ) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture. In Ganzi she met Dad, a recent electrical engineering grad assigned to build hydro-electric dams there.

I was conceived on the Tibetan plateau.

And they also learned how to make Tsampa and Tibetan butter tea.

So I guess we were among first wave of Han “colonialists”.

After 1980s, policy was relaxed that many Hans started to return home. Dad got accepted into graduate program in Chongqing University and joined the ranks of very first class of graduate students in China after Cultural Revolution (during which time Universities were closed).

Mom soon followed…

My brother-in-law’s parents had similar story except they were sent to Xinjiang. But somehow we all eventually ended up in United States.

Don’t have the statistics on Tibetan regions, but Han population in Xinjiang experienced decline in the 80s as Hans were slowly allowed to move back home.

The second period of Han migration into Tibet or Xinjiang is much more recent. They are mostly voluntary economic migrants seeking better opportunities in Xinjiang and Tibet as government pour massive amount of investments into these regions.

At government level, Chinese government now has a rotation program to attract government workers, teachers and other professionals to serve in Tibet for few years for higher pay. The total numbers of these people are small and they usually only stay for the length of their assignments, as staying in high-altitude Tibet is considered by many Hans to be literally harzardous to one’s health.

The economic migrants, on the other hand, are not dissimilar from early Chinese railroad workers in America. Few were in Tibet to stay. Their goal is to make enough money that they could return home to “interior” China. They make up the overwhelming numbers of Hans in Tibetan urban centers such as Lhasa and Shigatse.

In recent years, Han as well as Muslim Hui migrants have come to dominate many aspect of Tibetan economy because their advantage in knowing Mandarin and their commerce-oriented background.

Of course there are also the large number of military personnels of largely rural Sichuan background. I am sure not a few Sichuanese restaurants and brothels were originally set up to cater to these army boys.

Not sure if Chinese government set up of a quota of government contracts that must be given to Tibetan-run businesses. I think that would make sense.

What’s happening in Tibet today is one part indigenous people’s struggle to preserve their identity in face of overwhelming majority culture, one part nation-building by the power that be to forge a strong nation-state out of legacy of an empire and one part free market capitalism and globalization bringing together different people and its attendant conflicts.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:14 am | Comment

Lisa, I am offline all week and weekend and can’t read any comments. You and Raj can go in and delete as necessary if you don’t mind, but only when there’s a blatant reason, like insanity, intolerable ad hominems, obscenity, etc.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:14 am | Comment

Cathy smart.

If China had more sensible people like Cathy, none of this terrible crap would be happening. We have brains for a reason and I personally do not think we are born just to struggle through life bruting to make money and ‘face’. I’m not so perfect either, I’m juts talking ideally…

The CCP tactics for keeping the country together are really not smart. The way of brutally “harmonizing” people has the very opposite effect, even if the mob wants to deny it.

Honestly, I do not think the CCP wants to keep the country together, the same way Kim Jong does not want the threat of imperialism to dissipate, because it it used as a tool by those regimes to harness public support.

They drive dissidents away (Taiwan, Tibet etc) and then tell the people that they are against the motherland which they are not (they are against CCP) and then the Chinese have an enemy to brew about and follow the CCPs trails……

April 25, 2008 @ 6:14 am | Comment

@ferin

Hi ferin

“Rather, a desire for even handed reporting”
In this I am with you. The view of CH in many West countries is … “obsolete” to say the least. Our fault indeed. But a better PR abilities from CH could help us a loot to bring that view more up to date.

“And annoyed at a lack of consistency or
sophistication.”
Cannot see what you mean here.

“Zarko and Hillary care about China’s human rights? Get real.”
Maybe not. In case of Hillary I think she just cares about her political career at this moment…
But many of their voters do, and that will have an influence in their politic about CH, or in allowing or not greater influence to groups opposed to CH in their countries.

“I thought Chinese people could be individuals”
Sorry. Let me rephrased that. “the personal opinions of CH individuals that may differ with our personal individual opinions”
Better so? :-)

“maybe only the Great Aryan Master Race is capable of this.”
I do not consider myself a member of Aryan Master Race. I have a very mixed genetic cocktail, and an individual.. like yourself.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:15 am | Comment

This is the problem with China’s growth, their mindset is so not up to the skyscrappers, the computers, all the ideas behind the infrastructures, the govt don’t even have the modern concept of law and modern governing, mainland Chinese are not mentally prepared for all these growth, modern isn’t about skyscrappers and computers, they are a whole mindset of governing, and operating life. And freedom is part of it, and allowing others to express is the whole idea, that freedom is a very sweet entity, you can’t tarnish and destroy just to uphold your own belief.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:17 am | Comment

So why did they not include the people of Taiwan or chinese in singapore or malaysia. Does this mean you are not really chinese? Oh my gosh! The PRC supports the lawsuit. The lawsuit did not include Taiwanese people as being Chinese and deserving of damages. This means the PRC does not believe Taiwan is part of China!

April 25, 2008 @ 6:18 am | Comment

Cannot see what you mean here.

Free Tibetard: HAN CHAUVINISM!!!! CULTURAL GENOCIDE!!! ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM!! ZZZYXZ ZYGAG GOG MAGOG BUVZYZ BEELZEBUB! /starts speaking in tongues

Not really useful to anyone.

“the personal opinions of CH individuals that may differ with our personal individual opinions”

There are people who will not concede points everywhere. Chinese nationalism is only extroardinary in that it’s relatively non-violent, unlike Russian, Japanese etc. I am talking about modern Japan, now Showa, btw. They assassinate leftists and bomb buildings.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:19 am | Comment

This is the problem with China’s growth, their mindset is so not up to the skyscrappers, the computers, all the ideas behind the infrastructures, the govt don’t even have the modern concept of law and modern governing, mainland

I’d agree, society in China has weakened quite a lot with too much emphasis on making money. Even overseas Chinese are guilty of doing the same.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:21 am | Comment

The central organizational principle for propaganda of totalitarian regimes is the belief in a conspiracy. For China, this conspiracy is the foreign anti-China conspiracy.
(See Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism”)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/24/asia/letter.php?page=1

But does anyone care? Would nincumpoops who watch TV cooking shows and reality TV show even have the vision to see outside their narrow mental cells to know totalitarianism when the see it?

Probably not. Borat: “But isn’t it a problem that the woman have smaller brain than the man? Dr. Yamakov prove woman have brain size of squirrel.”

April 25, 2008 @ 6:22 am | Comment

Actually I don’t live in China, I don’t feel anything looking at the Chinese flag, as I don’t see the CCP represent my feelings. The people with conscience to human rights in China NEED TO SPEAK UP, even the CCP could be outnumbered.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

Ferin,

I got a real good suggestion. First I’ll just compare to the Muslim people opinion…

A lot of people think that Muslims are terrorists cause there are a bunch of Muslim terrorists right… So if those Muslims who do not think terrorism is a part of Islam and want the world to know it is only SOME BAD ones…. The they should make their case known..

For China, now is the time. Ferin, I see that it maybe bugs you that people think that all Chinese are braiwashed and cant think on their own and have no sense of right and wrong when it comes to… issues…

So why theres no clarification to the media and to people that many Chinese are just plain good people, they care about others, do not support the communist regime and lying departments(falsenews) , bloody persecutions, torture……..etc.

If I was Chinese I would be ashamed that people would associate me with these flag absessed people who cant calm down and speak from their real minds…

So where is the cool rational non communist voice, Ferin, if it is you, you are really important and I think a lot of Chinese would want to hear that voice and so would people around the world who are just plain scared of Chinese weird irrational party people…..

April 25, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

The central organizational principle for propaganda of totalitarian regimes is the belief in a conspiracy. For America, this conspiracy is the foreign anti-America conspiracy. WMD in Iraq, ultranationalism in China, Them Mexicans, Socialist Canada.
(See Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism”)

April 25, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

Did you copy that from Joan Chen’s biography?
or is it from Xiuxiu the sent down girl?

April 25, 2008 @ 6:24 am | Comment

The they should make their case known..

China is not extroardinarily nationalist. It’s only media bias that portrays them as such. I still think of the ROC as more of a legitimate ruler of China and that the CCP is more like another foreign dynasty not much different from the Mongols or Manchu.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:25 am | Comment

@cathy,

Yes, Cathy. I have not been mentally prepared for all these skyscrappers, the computers, all the ideas behind the infrastructures. My gosh, they simply boggle my mind!

But I just love to awake up every morning to listen to you lecturing me about how mentally unprepared I am. Thanks for telling me that my mindset is firmly set in 19th century. My golly, I didn’t realize we are out of 19th century.

Keep up the preaching please, they are music to my ears.

Please continue to enrich us with your wonderfully open mental attitude and wealth of knowledge, I know we really need it.

Cheers!

April 25, 2008 @ 6:29 am | Comment

ferin, do you even care? What do you care about?

April 25, 2008 @ 6:31 am | Comment

@ferin
“Free Tibetard: HAN CHAUVINISM!!!! CULTURAL GENOCIDE!!! ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM!! ZZZYXZ ZYGAG GOG MAGOG BUVZYZ BEELZEBUB! /starts speaking in tongues”
I see your point.
But as awareness of CH grows the country will get harsh criticism from those in disagreement with its internal/external policies. CH has been spared so far, not being considered until recently a major player in international arena. But that has changed, maybe too fast. Gets time to get use to that treatment.
But remember that many times the US do not get it much better.

“Chinese nationalism is only extroardinary in that it’s relatively non-violent,”
Historically there has been cases of violent CH nationalism. Although I concede that I some times in the past it was fueled by the grievances receive by foreign powers.
With respect to present time, I do think that the CCP has still a very strong control of society to allow violent nationalist incidents. For me the jury is still out. When the authoritarian regimes in Soviet and DDR fall down and the grip on society was released, we could see a resurgence of an angry nationalism that has been repressed until that time.

What would be the case of CH. No sure. The case of TW make me feel hopeful.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:33 am | Comment

humanitarianism, rule of law, culture, tradition, honor, intellectualism, beauty, nature, family.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:33 am | Comment

we could see a resurgence of an angry nationalism that has been repressed until that time.

That’s one of the many reasons why an immediate collapse of the CCP would be a bad thing. It’s better to have steady, controlled reform.

Histrionics only makes the CCP stall or regress. Metered, sincere criticism has helped a lot in the past.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Comment

If CCP start respecting their citizens, treat them with dignity, respect human rights, and human life, since it’s a Chinese say that “a life isn’t worth anything” referring to human life in China. If the CCP start respecting Chinese human life and dignity the same way the west respect their own citizens life and liberty, I think the conflicts in Tibet could eventually resolve itself. And the Chinese don’t think about this-as they are screaming national pride, that while THEY ARE SUPPORTING THEIR GOVT, THE CCP WILL NOT TURN AROUND AND START PROTECTING THEIR RIGHT TO CIVIL LIBERTY, FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, THE CCP WOULD TURN AROUND AND JAIL AND IMPRISON THEIR CITIZENS FOR MAKING OPPOSING VIEWS. As we speak, how many people are being imprisoned for opposing viewpoints published in blogs and in the press?

April 25, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Comment

Cao Meng, I am also wondering what it is you care about…. I mean, I guess Cathy sounds like preaching but this is a blog about China issues, so I mean her opinion is pretty valid wouldnt you say. I personally dont agree about the skyscrapers thing. I dont really think those are something you would mentally prepare for…. But I do think that Chinese people traded their cultural heritage for breakneck development.. Most nations have done the same thing except the Chinese had better culture and sold it our quite thoroughly…. Now it’s very superficial……But I have faith that there are some dissident voices, hidden, waiting to be set free…….

April 25, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Comment

If the CCP start respecting Chinese human life

Chinese people must first start caring about eachother. I know too many Taiwanese people who think of mainlanders as slaves to be used for profit.

They validate the CCP’s negligence.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:40 am | Comment

While the people are on the side of CCP now, the CCP won’t support people’s right to freely express in blogs and in the press, what happen if someone wants to make documentaries on the darkside of China, on the regional corruption of regional govt officials? Could they even get any access or be able to air such in China?

April 25, 2008 @ 6:44 am | Comment

I don’t think it’s all that bad, cathy. Chinese people have learned to band together now. Who knows what they’ll protest next?

The CCP is afraid of Chinese nationalism for good reason.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:45 am | Comment

Ferin,

How can the Chinese people show that they respect human life? Those types of dignified stuff is forbidden and you go to torture place for have dignified opinion….

Lawyer Gao Jisheng, (spellin?) he was good, what happened to him? You think that the Chinese people should band together and stand up? That would be great…

April 25, 2008 @ 6:46 am | Comment

If nothing else at least support eachother when the government fails. There are people being relocated in the central areas of China but lots of Shanghai yuppies in their name brand crap walking around the streets as if nothing happened.

What about the Overseas Chinese companies? There is improvement but a lot of them don’t even treat their workers like humans. They have access to open media too, so what’s their excuse?

I guess it’s all a mess now but things are at least getting better.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:49 am | Comment

Yes, Chinese people must start to treat each other as human beings, no matter if they are poor or rich, that’s the chore of the problem, if that’s not resolved, not even getting rid of the CCP would change anything.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:49 am | Comment

@snow

I am afraid that you are talking to a hardcore cultural sellout and a Milton Friedman disciple to boot here.

Yup, I will gladly trade in my grandma’s Buddhist prayer bead and prayer books for cash in my bank account.

btw I don’t think anybody’s culture is intrinsically better than others’. There are some cultures that I could prefer to live in, sure, but that’s just me. I am sure there are others who think me nuts to have those preferences.

I can’t explain it but self-righteousness in others have this magical power to free the ugly Boxer within from my nice, pleasant liberal facade.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:55 am | Comment

@snow & @cathy
“people should band together and stand up?”

The carrot is still too appealing: economic development, improve in quality of life, job opportunities, travel abroad, high education, infrastructure. Specially if you compare with previous living standards.
(Maybe for the people in HK the carrot is not so appealing.)

And the stick very big: no need to be specific here…

It will take sometime for the people to stand up. Maybe a generation. The next generation will not have living memory of former worst times, and like all generation will critic former generation decision.
What are CCP plans when that times come. No idea.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:56 am | Comment

No society is perfect, but look at the entire Western Europe, the lives of the people there, they have problems, but look how they treat each other, how the govt treat the people in general. How the govt and people treat their history, their old buildings how they try to preserve the past. China might want to keep making excuses like China is a big country, too many people whatever….how the west distort, etc, then just improve, and show the west that they are wrong, start by releasing the imprisoned journalists and ordinary citizens.

April 25, 2008 @ 6:57 am | Comment

yeah suppot eachother when the gov’t fails, but what if the gov’t lies and says that it is a great success when it has failed? Like SARS etc etc etc etc, you get it…

Im not disagreeing, im just wishing this could come true, that there would be some authentic humanity among the Chinese people…

What I often wonder is why they tolerate being lied to… Even get so upset about BBC ‘slant’ but do they not have a problem wth cetral lying department and a huuuge political entity that corroborates to lie and cheat and fool???

April 25, 2008 @ 6:58 am | Comment

Like SARS etc etc etc etc

There’s no way they can keep the lid on that forever. Too many Chinese people are finding ways around it, and even some CCP officials probably want to ease up on the restrictions.

What I often wonder is why they tolerate being lied to…

Do they? Lots of people in China protest all the time.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:00 am | Comment

It’s up to the mainland Chinese to change their country’s human rights record. And I mean every single Chinese has a role in this.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:04 am | Comment

Cao Meng,

Yeah, you are fabulously modern tee hee… Anyway, you abhor self righteousness, but, how about rightteousness? I am not talking about any person, just the concept…

I would trade my modern life for Tang Dynasty in minus amount of seconds,,,,,, however, this is somewhat interesting right here…

April 25, 2008 @ 7:05 am | Comment

@snow

You expect government to NOT lie and cheat and fool? That’s governments do. I mean all governments. Too expect anything differently, I am afraid that you are being “too simple, sometime naive” : )

Btw, shame on BBC. Sure it’s supported by British government funding but aspiring to be compare with CCTV? That’s gotta be a new low for Western journalistic standards.

People of the world expected better of BBC and now some of them demand that it lives up to its reputation for fair and objective reporting.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:06 am | Comment

Why are Chinese so afraid to speak the truth?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:08 am | Comment

@snow

“I would trade my modern life for Tang Dynasty in minus amount of seconds”

Bro, I think you need few more seconds to really think thing thru.

What about sanitation, hot-shower not to mention internet!

I rather make an insane amount of money and then stage a Tang Dynasty reenactment at my leisure.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:12 am | Comment

@Cao
The BBC has a record of fair and objective reporting?????

April 25, 2008 @ 7:12 am | Comment

If CCP can’t deal with their problems frankly and honestly with the people, how can the country, and culture, improve?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:12 am | Comment

Oh, ferin, you are right… I guess I just never hear about that in Canada… Really, never… Lazy, lazy journalists…. Well, lets see what goes down, I really hope for the best, and hope for the good of Chinese people to come to light….

Cathy, you are really right. In other countries we have to take responsibility as well, there has not been support for good people along the way, poor corrupt decisions… And of course other countries have their own records to imrove as well. All eyes will be on the Middle Kingdom though…

Its finally spring in this cold desolate Canada land, so I gotta go walkin’ now.

Cheers all (- :

April 25, 2008 @ 7:13 am | Comment

@cathy
“Why are Chinese so afraid to speak the truth?”
Big stick?
Nice carrot?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:13 am | Comment

more like big electric club, cannibal politcal campaigns…… freaky mobs

April 25, 2008 @ 7:17 am | Comment

@Lime

“The BBC has a record of fair and objective reporting?????”

My bad, it’s a case of me uttering things before they went thru thorough brain processing.

It’s not the first time that it happened, I don’t expected it to be the last.

Thanks for point out the error of my ways.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:17 am | Comment

At least there are more than one news network in the UK.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:18 am | Comment

There are tons of radio talk shows in Hong Kong, US, I don’t know about mainland China, but talk show hosts, guests, and people could call up and join in discussions on govt policies, debate and argue, or criticize govt, do they have such in mainland China?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:23 am | Comment

@snow
They got club in Tang Dynasty too, just manually powered. Tang got plenty of freaky mobs too.

Thankfully no electoral campaigns but how do you like political assassinations or extermination of clan to the 9th degree? Hopefully you don’t have any hot headed cousin 9th generation removed?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:25 am | Comment

It’s part of a newspaper in Hong Kong and other countries, to have editorial sections, individuals who expresses opinions on politics, disagree on govt, criticize, on all types of topics, do they have such in mainland China? Hong Kong’s vibrancy and as a major stock market in the world because HK has a healthy system of governing, transparency and responsibilities in the system.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:27 am | Comment

@snow

never mind, I thought your were referring to the election circus in the States.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:29 am | Comment

@Cathy

You should work for PR department of Hong Kong government, specialize in promoting HK to the West. Just don’t piss off the Big Boss too much.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:31 am | Comment

Chinese have the potential to have a responsible govt system, who acts with reason and confident, not with scare tactics and suppression. Look at Hong Kong, I think Hong Kong is the best combination of east and west. And Hong Kong definitely isn’t perfect, but people who live there feel so free and live without fear.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:33 am | Comment

If they are afraid then it’s their own stupidity, but the govt itself doesn’t suppress their people. No one got arrested yet in HK for criticizing mainland govt in newspaper.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:36 am | Comment

Cathy asked:

“Why are Chinese so afraid to speak the truth?”

Answer: The Chinese do speak the Truth. It’s just that, for the Chinese, “The Truth” is a function of Power: the Truth is the elimination of all possible competing interpretations.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:39 am | Comment

ferin wrote:

“The central organizational principle for propaganda of totalitarian regimes is the belief in a conspiracy. For America, this conspiracy is the foreign anti-America conspiracy. WMD in Iraq, ultranationalism in China, Them Mexicans, Socialist Canada.
(See Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism”)”

Comment: Almost. For the U.S., the conspiracy is “Int’l Terrorism”. I’m still trying to figure out who these “terrorists” are, apart from the Chinese people who seem to always piss on the toilet seat? In any case, in my opinion, the U.S.’s conspiracy is better than the Chinese conspiracy since the U.S. conspiracy is pro-globalization, whereas the Chinese conspiracy is anti-globablization.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:46 am | Comment

@Cathy

Re: “Why are Chinese so afraid to speak the truth?”

Cathy, when did you stop kicking cute furry kittens?

April 25, 2008 @ 7:48 am | Comment

What’s your point? I rather see a few places away from the mainland China where Chinese can live peacefully without fear pf the govt for expressing themselves than the have all Chinese living in mainland China where they can’t criticize the gov’t openly.

April 25, 2008 @ 7:49 am | Comment

The Torch in Oz: from the Aussie police shoving Chinese thug-guards, to “protesters” bused in by Beijing to drown out the pro-democracy voices, a priceless commentary on the Torch’s visit to Australia:

China Sends in the Clowns

Michael

April 25, 2008 @ 7:52 am | Comment

Sigh…

Cathy, if you can’t get my point then there is probably no point for me to make an effort in discussion with you.

April 25, 2008 @ 8:00 am | Comment

@DJ
“Cathy, if you can’t get my point then there is probably no point for me to make an effort in discussion with you.”

And your point was?

April 25, 2008 @ 8:07 am | Comment

@Michael Turton

Shouldn’t you be working hard right now to reclaim the glory for DPP?

April 25, 2008 @ 8:28 am | Comment

@DJ

I believe that you are talking to someone else, not me.

I am a Chinese and my perspectives reflect my care of Chinese national interest. You have no ground to question me on this and I see no need to justify it either.

I don’t believe that there is a single answer to the question what the Chinese national interest is. But did I question you or ask for any justification? If what you say is what you believe, then I assume that you act in good faith and respond to that.

Why do you have such a difficulty accepting that Chinese people could genuinely care for China’s interest without being “true believer”s? Why is sporting positions in conflict with the established western ones automatically a sign of lacking enlightenment?

You are one Chinese person, not the Chinese people and I have never said that your are “lacking enlightenment”.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:09 am | Comment

@CCT

Some 50 buses, we’ve learned, were laid on to take thousands of aggressively pro-Chinese supporters from Sydney and Melbourne to Canberra, where they were deployed to drown out and intimidate people protesting against China’s record on Tibet and human rights.

So who were all these people singing patriotic Chinese songs and waving huge red flags for the cameras? Who formed this insta-crowd that filled the TV screens and allowed China’s Xinhua newsagency to report back home the bright news that “tens of thousands of spectators, many of them enthusiastic Chinese expatriates and students, had lined both sides of the streets . . . chanting support for the Beijing Olympics”?

They were mainly students from China’s elite, it appears – students who, as a condition of their visas, had actually signed agreements promising “not (to) become involved in any activities that are disruptive to, or in violence threaten harm to, the Australian community or any group in the Australian community”.

The backlash has started.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23594182-5000117,00.html

April 25, 2008 @ 9:19 am | Comment

@Amban

My problem with your prior statements is your complete dismissal of near unanimous anger expressed by Chinese in and out of mainland as fake and caused by peer pressure.

I challenged to you show how to account people like CCT and I. So you now saying: “You are one Chinese person, not the Chinese people.”

If you can not justify your prior accusation when it comes up against individuals like me, on what logical basis can you maintain the same broad charge against the the Chinese people, which is after all a collections of individuals.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:37 am | Comment

I thought only foreign students in China are subjected to signing such agreements?

“deployed” nice.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:38 am | Comment

In Mongolia, anti-Chinese sentiment has taken a nasty turn. The neo-Nazi group Blue Mongolia, for example, shaves the heads of women caught sleeping with Chinese men. “It is for their own good,” says Gansuren Damdinsuren, a Blue Mongolia board member. “A small nation can only survive by keeping its blood pure.”

http://www.feer.com/features/2008/april/Mongolias-China-Syndrome

Was it on this blog that suggested the Chinese shave their foreigner-romancing ladies a la French in WWII? That voice might have been a little too loud.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:45 am | Comment

“They were mainly students from China’s elite, it appears – students who, as a condition of their visas, had actually signed agreements promising “not (to) become involved in any activities that are disruptive to, or in violence threaten harm to, the Australian community or any group in the Australian community”.

What exactly did they disrupt? What violence did they commit? To whom did they do harm?

Blatant racism for all to see.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:54 am | Comment

@Amban

I do not have any problem with CH student demonstrations. Organized? Of course, like TB or any other demonstration. Setup by the CCP? Do not think that most of those students were force
to go in any way. National pride is not a sin in itself, only how you demonstrate it can be.

I do am against them trying to quench other voices, specially by force. Hope they were minor just scuffles due to the excited environment.

On the other hand. Some students in AU and elsewhere may be asking themselves.
“Why cant we organize an anti-Dalai Lama demonstration in Beijing?”

Some head scratching must be going on. Not a bad thing I believe in the long term.

April 25, 2008 @ 9:55 am | Comment

@DJ

My problem with your prior statements is your complete dismissal of near unanimous anger expressed by Chinese in and out of mainland as fake and caused by peer pressure.

I’m not dismissing anything. I see what you see, but I also ask how representative this anger is when there is no tolerance for dissenting opinions. You have yet not commented on that.

If you can not justify your prior accusation when it comes up against individuals like me, on what logical basis can you maintain the same broad charge against the the Chinese people, which is after all a collections of individuals.

I am arguing with two individuals, not with an entire people. If you want crowd me out of this discussion by bringing in an entire people, whose opinions we are prevented from measuring by PRC law enforcement, I rather call it quits. That is an asymmetry of power that no one can handle.

April 25, 2008 @ 10:15 am | Comment

@DJ

My problem with your prior statements is your complete dismissal of near unanimous anger expressed by Chinese in and out of mainland as fake and caused by peer pressure.

I’m not dismissing anything. I see what you see, but I also ask how representative this anger is when there is no tolerance for dissenting opinions. You have yet not commented on that.

If you can not justify your prior accusation when it comes up against individuals like me, on what logical basis can you maintain the same broad charge against the the Chinese people, which is after all a collections of individuals.

I am arguing with two individuals, not with an entire people. If you want crowd me out of this discussion by bringing in an entire people, whose opinions we are prevented from measuring by PRC law enforcement, I rather call it quits. That is an asymmetry of power that no one can handle.

April 25, 2008 @ 10:17 am | Comment

@funny

What exactly did they disrupt? What violence did they commit? To whom did they do harm?

Blatant racism for all to see

Here is the violence:

POLICE lost control of angry mobs of Chinese nationals who ran amok threatening or assaulting non-Chinese in the latter stages of the torch relay today.

In angry scenes hundreds of metres away from the torch relay, thousands of Chinese nationals surrounded and scuffled with Tibetan activists near Commonwealth Park, scene of the relay’s final stage.

In one incident, an Australian couple waving a Tibetan flag were mobbed by dozens of Chinese activists on Commonwealth Avenue Bridge.

The Chinese grabbed the flag, threw it off the bridge and began punching the man and woman, aged in their 20s. No police were around.

http://tinyurl.com/6xds5s

April 25, 2008 @ 10:22 am | Comment

Today’s headline:

A covert nuclear reactor destroyed last year in Syria would have been capable of producing plutonium and probably was “not intended for peaceful purposes,” the White House said Thursday.

This is the kind of shit that gets peopl in in non-western nations pissed off. who da fuck is the US to tell another nation that what they’re doing within its own soverignty that what they were doing is wrong or not for that particular purpose.

people and governtment can’t even decide what they can or can’t do anymore, and you want to talk about human rights and democracy, give me a fucking break.

April 25, 2008 @ 10:56 am | Comment

China needs to take a stand on human rights and defend human rights of citizens in their own land, China is like Russia, or what Soviet Union used to have to due with with ethnic minorities. The west and Chinese look at nationalism in different light, translated into Chinese, could mean “love country”-literally, which is not about politics, the west looks at the term nationalism with more political meaning behind it.

April 25, 2008 @ 10:59 am | Comment

Okay, for all of you who don’t like Western media coverage of China:

I had been meaning to cite my hometown paper, the LA Times, which in spite of a serious decline in overall quality (DAMN YOU, SAM ZELL!!!) still covers China pretty well, IMO.

One of my favorite reporters is Ching-Ching Ni, who for years has been doing human interest stories, focusing on real heroes, “ordinary” people who do extraordinary things.

I’ll try to blog it but I have out of town guests, so in case I don’t get a chance, here’s a link to her latest story, about a man who has made it his mission to rescue potential suicides on Nanjing Bridge.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:00 am | Comment

Middle Finger, the vast majority of the American people no longer believe a word coming out of George Bush’s White House (for the record, I never did). We are collectively counting the days till he’s gone and praying that he doesn’t do anything abysmally stupid/destructive before then.

January 9 can’t come fast enough!

April 25, 2008 @ 11:02 am | Comment

And just to emphasize what I said above…the last 7 1/2 years in the US have been about the worst I can recall in my lifetime. I’d have to go back to dim childhood memories of 1968 for anything this dreadful.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:04 am | Comment

@middle finger kingdom:

What does human rights mean to Mainland Chinese then? What’s democracy means to mainland Chinese? Where is the line of right and wrong when it comes to doing the right thing to other fellow Chinese in China, including all ethnic minority?

April 25, 2008 @ 11:04 am | Comment

Cathy,

Human rights in china currently means having the rights to make economic progress in one’s life, the rights to lift oneself from poverty and to secure financial and material comforts.

Democracy to the Chinese means a desired goal in the distant future, but not in the immediate future.

The line of right and wrong is where the CCP whether makes the living standards of the Chinese people worse or maintains social stability.

The Chinese people are asking the world and especially the west to understand China, but apparently it’s not happening. And when China is making all efforts to throw a party for th world, you people come here and piss on our parade. How you think this makes Chinese people feel.

I dont know what’s so hard to understand that there’s no single or absolute social-political system that all Earthlings must abide by. If you love your democracy and human rights so much, then keep it that way and stay in the West. But stop intefereing in our business.

I would strongly suggest the West to cool it and stop criticizing China, frankly it’s insulting. The west is only making it seem to other developing nations that they too have no shot of progressing according their own ways. I for one am very interested in China playing the role as advocates of other developing and non-western nations. It’s time to protect the weaker nations of the world, and perhaps even more so, that’s China’s true destiny.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:23 am | Comment

Er, isn’t Cathy a Chinese person raised in Hong Kong, now in the US?

Not your typical “western” perspective.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:27 am | Comment

As to China’s being criticized by “the West”…

Here’s the deal. You become a global superpower, you are going to get criticized. Some of that criticism will be justified, and some will not. But I’d suggest getting used to it, because it comes with the territory.

Here’s my personal philosophy. I try to regard people I meet as individuals, first and foremost. I criticize policies and actions, not entire nationalities. Over-generalizing is the enemy.

Onward.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:33 am | Comment

Also, MFK, the role you’re proposing for China isn’t too far off from the old Non-Aligned movement (do I have that terminology correct?) of the 50s and early 60s. Except with a lot more power behind it.

April 25, 2008 @ 11:34 am | Comment

Otherlisa,

We can all argue here to death and would still get nowhere. The bottom line is that “might is right”. If the USA is a weak nation with no miliary might, I don’t think anybody would care what it says, and surely them Brits would’ve stopped licking your boots a long time ago.

I’ve lived in the US for over 20 years, America’s domestic political and social system is very good, but its foreign policies are downright dirty and disingenuous.

To sum it up, Chinese people are beginning to learn about the West and how it operates, and likewise, the West of china. It’ll come down to, what are you going to do about it? By that, I don’t mean us, but our respective governments.

Speaing of Cathy, yeah, shocking to find a politically inclined Hong Konger, though they only watch their soap operas and play mahjong all day long.. mmmm haaaai aarrrr maaa..

April 25, 2008 @ 11:41 am | Comment

Otherlisa,

The right to criticize and the right to interfere are totally different. You can criticize China’s Tibet policy all you want, but western nations and western institutions can’t interfere in the Tibet issues.

When the CCP knows that the NED and other goverenment entities support and fund the TGIE, how do you expect the CCP to separate advocacy of the Tibet cause from direct western nation’s foreign policies.

April 25, 2008 @ 12:01 pm | Comment

‘What’s happening in Tibet today is one part indigenous people’s struggle to preserve their identity in face of overwhelming majority culture, one part nation-building by the power that be to forge a strong nation-state out of legacy of an empire and one part free market capitalism and globalization bringing together different people and its attendant conflicts.”

You almost have it correct. You left out racism, greed and corruption are factors

Also like it or not your elders still have mao’s ghost in their psyche.

Being a boy you also have no direct experience with what people in power will do to keep that power or climb the ladder.

CCP Chief in TAR was Hu’s slot to demonstrate his ability to maintain control and tow the line. The current CCP Chief running TAR will correctly assume he should be doing the same thing to be considered for another higher position in Beijing.

April 25, 2008 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

“When the CCP knows that the NED and other goverenment entities support and fund the TGIE, how do you expect the CCP to separate advocacy of the Tibet cause from direct western nation’s foreign policies.”

They should not separate advocacy of the Tibetan’s cause because it is the policy of the western nations to support people who are presecuted for their race and their religion and that will aways be true as long as there is a light burning in our nation’s capitol’s.

The CCP should listen and change their policy for the simple reason it is wrong and against human nature.

April 25, 2008 @ 12:31 pm | Comment

@Gandalf

I am hardly a boy anymore, but compare to the Great Gandalf, my age is merely trifle : )

“Also like it or not your elders still have mao’s ghost in their psyche.”

Not that it matters greatly, people my age are inheriting China. We are the present and future.

Hu, like Wen, had been groom for top leadership by his mentor Song Ping. He also came to attention of Hu Yao Bang and Deng Xiao Ping in early 80s. Not sure if his tenure in Tibet was pivotal in him being handpicked as Deng’s choice for 4th generation leadership, or was just a resume building post.

It was quite interesting , if you know what he actually did or did not do during the month 1989.

I doubt Zhang Qing Li will come even close, ever, to the throne of power.

btw. Mao was a disaster of a leader for China. But as a man, wow, what a life he led. I am sure if given the chance, I would also opted for ruling the realm to my heart’s content as a God-emperor, worshiped by hundreds of millions and bed countless Chinese beauties.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

MFK:

Shock to see that my fellow Chinese would stereo type another Hong Kong born Chinese, and that’s all you know about HK, from our soap opera, huh? We love our soap opera as much as our love to criticize our govt policies, and everything else.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:20 pm | Comment

Don’t know if mainland Chinese care about this, but no one wants bloodshed anymore, please calm down and think of a win/win situation for the Tibetans and Han Chinese. Please don’t start finger pointing, think.
http://www.singtaousa.com/
接受本報獨家專訪 籲漢藏民族和好 望分歧在內部解決
達賴首回應胡錦濤「三個停止」

( 本報記者 王寧 廖國文 科爾蓋科(Colgate)大學獨家專訪 )

達賴喇嘛4月23日早上在紐約上州科爾蓋特(Colgate)大學接受了本報記者王寧與廖國文的獨家專訪。這是自「3.14」西藏拉薩動亂後,達賴喇嘛首次接受中文媒體的獨家專訪。

在一個多小時的專訪中,達賴喇嘛首次正式回應了胡錦濤有關談判大門敞開的講話,首次公開談他與藏青會關係。達賴強烈呼籲漢藏民族攜手和好,共同解決面臨的問題。

達賴23日在為星島日報讀者留言時,並未停留在客套禮節上,而是執筆沉思,寫下一段他從未向任何媒體發表過的話。

他用藏文寫道:「對於所有漢族同胞表示問好。我們兄弟民族在緊緊保持兄弟情感下,任何問題以通過內部坦誠交談來解決,並經常保持相互密切的關係是很重要的。」

達賴辦公室人員指出:達賴為我們寫的這段話對他們來說也是極為重要的動態。他們不僅認真抄錄了這段話,還與我們認真逐字討論將這段藏文譯成中文和英文。並在事後向達賴本人求證,力求絲毫無誤地理解留言的真正含意。

在回答記者提出的問題前,達賴喇嘛首先表示:「首先我很高興會見一家主要的中文報紙,我認為這是非常重要的。我們西藏人面臨的問題,同時也是中國人面臨的問題。這個問題必須在中國兄弟姐妹及西藏人中間找到答案。當然,外人能夠幫助我們,但最後解決方法還是要靠我們。全球華人兄弟姐妹對此問題的清晰理解是真正重要的。為此我很高興會見你們。」

達賴一向推崇和平及非暴力,但近來圍繞奧運聖火傳遞發生的暴力行為,顯示出有些人已經失去了控制,也就是說失去了達賴的控制。本報記者首先要求達賴就此作出解釋。

達賴表示,首先我不是世界的統治者。在藏人中間——你昨天也看到了我演講門口的抗議(指另一佛教宗派雄登信徒),他們極力反對我。我在五一年到七十年代時也信奉過這個信仰,但後來發覺這是不對的,就不再信仰了。他們就這樣反對我。達賴指出雄登信徒在印度殺人,被列罪犯。他說,你看,也有反對我的人。在藏人社區,現在有些團體全面違背我的中間路線。

這是達賴喇嘛首次將抗議奧運聖火傳遞的人,同長期以來極力反對他的雄登信徒放在一起提出,以說明部分藏人並不聽他話。

記者表示胡錦濤最近發表了只要他做到「三個停止」,與達賴談判大門是敞開的講話。請他回應這個講話。

達賴喇嘛表示:從2002年到現在有6次圓桌會議,但無實質結果。他認為胡錦濤未準備好進行對話。對話不僅是見面,而是要相互聆聽對方意見,共同尋找一個解決問題的方法。達賴表示他全力支持胡錦濤的和諧社會主張,認為是非常重要,實在的理念。

達賴日前在密歇根會見了美國西藏問題特使,但沒有公布具體內容。達賴在專訪中透露,他向美國方面提出現在出現的這種危機,會使中國領導人更加注意到西藏真正的現狀。過去中國領導人認為西藏人是快樂的,現在他們會發現情況不是這樣。他認為這次危機可能使中國領導人會重新考慮對西藏流亡政府的態度。如果那樣的話,所以現在美國可以進行幫助。如果這樣情況出現,達賴表示將全力支持中央政府解決西藏問題。

達賴表示美國特使向他告知中美間就此問題的幾次接觸,如在歐洲會見中國官員等。稱指美國特使完全同意他的看法。

在採訪將結束時,達賴已經非常激動。他說:「政府指責我,我不在乎,但有幾百萬中國人,無辜的中國人真正感到達賴是個很壞的人,那樣我真的感到很悲傷。」

達賴喇嘛把民族團結的希望放在年青一代身上,希望年青一代藏人同漢族交流。他指出他去年在加拿大發現有一個當地的西藏青年人團體,同漢人青年團體組成了一個友誼組織。他感到非常高興。因為今後如有事件發生,雙方馬上可以展開對話。

專訪結束時,我們要求達賴喇嘛通過星島日報,用一句話向所有中國人表達他想說的話。他激動地用英中相雜的話說:「我們是兄弟民族,不要對我們感到憤怒,讓我們站在一起。所有的分歧我們都可以在內部解決。」

如閣下想就此新聞發表意見﹐請電郵到forum@singtaousa.com

April 25, 2008 @ 1:29 pm | Comment

Middle Finger Kingdom,

Cathy is self-styled HK ambassador to the West. mostly to highlight attraction of Hong Kong’s advantageous cultural and political environment. We are not really her target audience. So pay no attention to what she says.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Don’t mainland Chinese want no suppression from the CCP when it comes to freedom of the press? Or do most of them used to being suppressed they can’t feel the difference anymore?

April 25, 2008 @ 1:42 pm | Comment

I want and hope mainland Chinese to have just as much freedom of the press and self expression as every Hong Kong resident has. I think all human beings wants that for themselves, to live life freely, not live under tight fisted control, not being monitored by the govt of every opinion.

April 25, 2008 @ 1:49 pm | Comment

“”"”"”"=Human rights in china currently means having the rights to make economic progress in one’s life, the rights to lift oneself from poverty and to secure financial and material comforts.”"”"”"

WHo decided that? Should all people who think human rights includes truth, justice, religion etc, be crushed? Besides the CCP steels peoples land and does not manage a very impressive economy for the people.

“”"”=Democracy to the Chinese means a desired goal in the distant future, but not in the immediate future.”"”"

“”"”"=The line of right and wrong is where the CCP whether makes the living standards of the Chinese people worse or maintains social stability.”"”"”

I dont quite get this… Are you saying that Chinese people only care about cash and nothing else matters? “Social stability” is this code for killing dissidents?

Finger, arent you being a traitor right now because you reveal direct answers to questions like this? Anyway, its good to have some actual dialogue about ‘human rights’ since thats really what this is about.

Finger you have complained that people are pissing on your party, but the way you describe is too simplified and wrong. People are not criticising China, get it? The criticise policies of the regime which mainly are about HUMAN RIGHTS, so forget the rhetoric about anti China and the big Olympics propaganda party ( I know regular Chinese want it to be a real party, but the CCP has made it into something of its own to show off propaganda style)

And you also say that you want people to ‘understand’ China. What about China do you want people to understand? Nothing comes to my mind… I mean everyone already knows the basics… I think there is A LOT to understand but I dont think you and me are talkin about the same thing…

April 25, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

For mainland Chinese, perhaps google Chinese newspaper oversea, in the US, Canada, they have a more neutral and fair perspective on this, if you find CNN, or BBC too biased. NO CHINESE WANT TO SEE BIASED REPORTS ON CHINA, BUT IF THEY SEE UNFAIRNESS HAPPENING IN CHINA, IT’S IMPORTANT TO NOT DISMISS IT IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY CCP SUPPRESSION OF CIVIL LIBERTY TO MAINTAIN SLOGAN OF HARMONIOUS SOCIETY.
http://www.singtaousa.com/
達賴首次談與藏青會關係

( 本報記者王寧、廖國文紐約報道 )

記者問道:現在有許多報道試圖描寫您與藏青會的關係。您同他們的追求目標有何不同嗎?

達賴想也沒有想就回答說:「當然完全不同。他們要求的是獨立,我要求的是真正自治。」他解釋說:600萬西藏人從中國大陸分離出來,總是勢單力薄的,只有同十多億中國人合在一起時,才能顯示出自己的力量。達賴喇嘛在整個專訪中多次強烈同藏青會劃清界線,多次使用「他們」,「我們」。他把激進的藏人稱為「年青人」(Youth)。指一些年青人的組織的目標是獨立,他們也來請達賴上課,但達賴說他總是指出他同他們追求獨立的目標是不同的。

達賴說他在印度時,看到一個英國人在搶奪奧運火炬的電視,當場就表示這令人不安。他重申全面支持中國舉辦奧運,並特地提到當時在討論中國申請舉辦奧運會時,正在華盛頓訪問的他當場表示支持中國舉辦奧運。他說:「中國作為人口最多的古老國家,舉辦世界最著名比賽是應得的。甚至現在發生了西藏不幸事件,我的立場不變。」

達賴說:「奧運火炬是奧運的一部分,我向藏人發出信息:十億多中國人對奧運比賽和奧運火炬感到自豪。我們必須支持他們,尊重他們。奧運火炬是奧運一部分,我們不應該阻攔火炬。」

記者問,西藏青年大會的主席最近聲稱將不惜用武力來達到獨立的目的。你是否有影響他們的方法?

達賴解釋說:當你採用暴力來做你的訴求時。你用非暴力訴求獲得的支持就極大縮小了。達賴指出他在來美國前成功阻止了一批印度西藏人向西藏邊境的遊行,但出來後聽說4月18日又有250名西藏年青人開始了向邊境的遊行。達賴無奈地說:西藏人中也有不聽我話的人。他解釋,我警告他們在抵達邊境時就會遭到中國方面的逮捕,是自殺,同時,他們的行動又使印度政府處境十分為難。達賴表示他無法向每一個人去說明他的立場。

如閣下想就此新聞發表意見﹐請電郵到forum@singtaousa.com

April 25, 2008 @ 2:14 pm | Comment

Middle Kingdom, you have said some other naive comment…. I will point it out since I am sure you want to know….

You said that its none of US business to comment on some nukes and stuff…. Well, the thing is about China that when it comes to killing people and repressing dissidents and using terror to manipulate the mass opinions… Thats a situation where the people who do not follow the party line are desperate. There are a lot of people in China who are totally not supportive of the CCP regime but they dare not let their voice be heard. There are plenty others who stand up and end up in dark holes for torture and organ harvest…. So, you cant really say that all the torture and repression policies of CCP are only the CCPs business…. What about the opressed? They are not valid? Who will support their RIGHT to not be sent to dark hole for torture and organ harvest? Don’t you think that there are plenty people in China who wish for someone to intervene and help bring better China?

Also, not exactly related, do you know the CCP’s meddling in many countries’ affairs? Anyone with a mind for greed and with economic ties will be subject to the manipulations of the economic partner. The US can criticize the CCP and the CCP will have to decide what to do… The CCP pushes gov’ts to be silent about human rights abuses done by CCP and they often end up fooling entire populations due to this conflic tof interest. Anyway, its just to say that the world is globalized and there is ush and pull among trading partners. The CCP definitely does stay out of countries’ stuff.

Anyway, I’m glad that people outside of China want to talk about human rights and promote more justice… Of course I am not a CCP member and am someone who would have a lot to loose if the CCP has any growing control in the world…

April 25, 2008 @ 2:18 pm | Comment

And here is more of “bad China”!

It’s time for “Shark awareness week”!

h*tp://tinyurl.com/4zt6j4

April 25, 2008 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

Dalai Lama interview with Singtao USA edition is a very important interview, consider the timing, please read his plead and not judge too soon. Here are more web address of oversea Chinese newspaper
http://www.mingpaousa.com/
Where do typical mainland Chinese get their news source?

April 25, 2008 @ 2:27 pm | Comment

cathy is right…

If Chinese peole really believe that ‘social stability’ means killing innocent dissidents so that the people who follow the party line can live in harmonious society…..then, the Western people cannot accpet that IMO…..

If the Chinese peoples idea of a person right is nothing but animal subsistence and zealous struggle to fulfill greed, then that is really anti Chinese and even Westerners are more spiritually enlightened than that! IMO….

I donno, this is all so weird…

Peace.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:29 pm | Comment

It’s easier just “TO LIVE”(taken from movie title of Ziang Yimou), but it’s a lot harder to fight for a real change of enlightenment, because that requires lots of self reflection, to question oneself, purpose, to question-everything. Chinese writer and journalist/social commentator Lao Suen was so frustrated during his lifetime, he wrote lots of essays on the Chinese condition during 2wws, the indifference he saw in many, many Chinese at the time.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

Why are there no protests outside of Bausch & Lomb, Areva, Total, Renault and Suez?
Because those companies are associated with high technology, advanced manufacturing and modern management methods and so are necessary for China’s development. So they stay protected, Carrefour is just a department store.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:47 pm | Comment

Chinese Nationalism May Tarnish Beijing Olympics
By Stephanie Ho
Beijing
24 April 2008
http://voanews.com/english/2008-04-24-voa21.cfm

April 25, 2008 @ 2:56 pm | Comment

@nanheyangrouchuan

Haha, Sherman’s Lagoon has actually a quite an intelligent way to bring about debate on Shark fin consumption. Much better and effective (IMO) than say “your people are barbarians for your disgustingly weird penchant for consuming shark fins and Fido”! Too bad, it’s only in English, unlikely to reach majority of the Chinese audience where it might make a difference.

Never had a thing for shark fin soup, it’s way overrated. Caught a small sand shark last week when fishing at Seal Beach. It was quite a fighter. Tossed him back to the ocean of course.

As a surfer though, I must say I am more comfortable with a Great White in a bowl of soup than lapping about when I am trying catching some waves.

April 25, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

Snow,

No need to get all your panties in a knot. You, like many human rights “advocates’ speak from your mindframes and concepts of liberal democracy. you guys are frustrated because you’ve yet to comprehend or acknowledge that your rules of Western democracy engagement don’t work in China or the greater debate in most non-western nations.

I’m not against human rights or democracy, all I’m saying is that the imposition of these liberal democratic ideas in China would be another great human tragedies at this point. Given the context of the problems and priorities facing China, most Chinese will choose a strong and stable China for the foreseeable future. Until China is secured in its own right, then Chinese will start demanding more of these human rights and possibly democracy.

But at this critical and fragile juncture in China’s history, we only ask the world to let us be for now. Please be understood that you or people like you, are being heard by the Chinese people and government, but that doesn’t mean we have to act on them. We Chinese know in our heart where our future is and are working our way there.

We’re learning to forget and forgive what happend the last 200 years, but the West’s incessant interfrence and finger pointings are only worked in reminding of those 200 years.

There’s a reason why no many overseas chinese or foreign born Chinese advocating strongly about human rights in China, cuz they know it’s neither the right time nor the right polices for China at this point.

The current display of Nationalism in China is a great thing to see. This is a message we Chinese are communicating with each other, that we’re united and we ain’t taking shit from other countries no more.

And I’ll tell you another secret, the rise of China also means to us that, yes, this world don’t belong to the West, we have as much rights to piss on Earth as the West have done. It’ll be better for everybody if the West to start learning to deal with China and the East. We’ve studied you guys for a long time now, you guys don’t have much secrets left.

To put it more plainly, yeah, China doesn’t have human rights or democracy, but what the fuck are you gonna do about it. And unfortunately some have resorted to messing with China with the Tibet issue. Look how that’s turning out for everybody.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:08 pm | Comment

Oversea’s Chinese play very important role in fostering democracy and growth in China, from Sui Yet Sung, the founder of Republic of China, to now. The web address below is a USA Chinese broadcast station. There is a show “Talk Tonight”, a talk show which discusses issues in the Chinese communities, in China, Taiwan, and US. Check out oversea’s Chinese points of view. Perhaps go to Youtube there might be some shows downloaded already.

http://www.ktsf.com/en/research/nielsen_ratings.html

April 25, 2008 @ 3:09 pm | Comment

I don’t know why I’m responding to Cathy, sorry Cao.

At this point, we don’t really give that much of shit about the Olympics now. There’s a pile of shit on the dance floor at the party right now, we’re just as eager as you are to get this party over with. At this point, we’ll be happy to just have the Olympics for ourselves.

I personally am eager to see the end of the Olympics to see the CCP to go out there and kick some ass. The gloves are coming off after the Olympics, folks.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:16 pm | Comment

This is a more radical, political Chinese station, “New Tang Dynasty Television station”, based in the US, the reason why people don’t think oversea Chinese aren’t pushing so hard for China’s human rights and democracy is because Chinese oversea are not in the mainstream. THeir style to push is not the same as caucasians, but their concerns for China’s human rights is just as strong.

http://myntdtv.blogspot.com/

April 25, 2008 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

@MFK

There will always be idealists like snow, holier than thou moral crusader like cathy, hardcore ethno-nationalist like Amban and plain nutcase like nanheyangrouchuan.

They are frustrated because present-day China do not shape up to their expectations and more importantly they are powerless to change her to their liking.

At the end of the day, the power to shape China’s destiny lies in our hands (I think deep down in their hearts, they know this, hence the frustration and endless sermonizing and threats)

Just focus on the goal and stay the course.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:35 pm | Comment

@cathy
“There is a show “Talk Tonight”, a talk show which discusses issues in the Chinese communities, in China, Taiwan, and US.”

Thanks for the tip. There are already some of the programs in youtube.
Problem for me is that they are in CH. Google Language tools do not work yet on youtube, hope they fix it soon ;-)
Maybe I can find one with subtitles or in English

It would not be a bad idea for that Channel to subtitle some of their programs, could help to spread knowledge opinion CH overseas.

In the meantime, just pondering to learn CH always liked the sound of the language but I am afraid the writing system is beyond my reach.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

I agree there is a difference between criticism and interference. The problem is, things like protests over the torch run – which would be, uh, criticism – provoke responses that are way out of proportion to the offense.

I find it kind of funny that there was this mass freak-out over the torch protests and yet, here in the US, Chinese and Chinese Americans go to Hollywood to, well, you know, protest CNN.

Oh well. The world’s citizens will either figure this shit out, or not. I’m one of these hippie freaks who believes that ultimately, we are all in this together. Yeah, I’m privileged and I’m really glad that I am, and I’m as selfish as anyone else, and not sure how much I would be willing to give up for the good of the rest of humanity. But I am certainly willing to give up some things. And I believe that cooperation has to be our overriding philosophy, because the world’s problems are too large and too intertwined to be dealt with in a zero-sum game.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:39 pm | Comment

And Cao Meng De, if you are going to characterize everyone else, how should we characterize you?

Privileged parachute kid, bicultural surfer who actually is not as purely “Chinese” as he presents himself to be, by virtue of his global upbringing?

Just a guess.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:41 pm | Comment

Oh Dude! I’m gonna miss the Chinese chicks!

I might as well join the fxxck’n Peace Corps!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734821,00.html

April 25, 2008 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

@Middle Finger Kingdom

The problem with your party was a lousy PR performance by CH organizer. You should take the criticism, well earned or not, more calmly.
Yes it hurts, but that is the way it works. Hope it could be done better next time.

About Economic development versus HR/Political openness there are two theories.

1) You are right CH needs the stability and power of development by command no matter what of current political system. Political Openness+HR wait down on the line.

2)It is just the a contract with the devil between CCP and CH people. I let you develop get better life (compared as the one you had before) but you do not question my grip in power. If you do you will get in trouble. I could even put my grip on power before country development and interest if I feel menaced. Political Openness+HR? Keep dreaming.

Which one is true? Maybe even both!

April 25, 2008 @ 3:49 pm | Comment

Cao,

yup yup, as always, agreed. I’m living in China right now, don’t let these clowns fool you. Those carrefour protesters are as dumb as these Olympic torch relay protesters. People out here are busy getting on with their lives, and are not losing sleep over human rights this or democracy that.

Guess non-chinese will never understand how chinese can live in harmony by being pro-China and anti-commie at the same time. Western people have a one-track mind, on a way to a dead-end tunnel. They dont’t realize how theu’re trapped in their own minds, or in their open and democratic society. What’s that funny saying..the most enslaved are those who think they’re free? Welcome to the Western world.

April 25, 2008 @ 3:53 pm | Comment

“New Tang Dynasty Television station” like Epochtimes, is a well known mouth piece for Falungong. Falungong is really a piece of work. Their tactics gives CCP a serious run for their money.

To see what Harry Wu (Wu Hongda), no friend of CCP, has to say about Falungong including “New Tang Dynasty Television” (NTDTV) see Roland Soong’s translation:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

April 25, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

@CMD MKF
“I don’t know why I’m responding to Cathy, sorry Cao.”

Why are you so reluctant to answer Cathy?

Do you find it unsettling that a CH countrymen do not share your opinions?

April 25, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

Ecodelta,

you’re an idiot. Cathy’s from Hong Kong, her viewpoints are as wacky as hong people themselves. Hong Kong’s been a bitch to someone else, previously, to much of my indignation and rage, the rotten teeth UK, and now to China. So HK people have been conditioned to beg for goodies from its masters, and thus their wacky world and political views.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:05 pm | Comment

What’s the demographic of the visitors on this web? Are they mostly westerners, or Chinese with oversea’s education?

April 25, 2008 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

MFK:

That’s absurd! The fruit of Hong Kong prosperity is mostly due to Chinese migrants who worked hard and they collectively have created a miracle in a place with no natural resources, the resources are the people.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:10 pm | Comment

I would agree that “harmony” might be a Chinese cultural value. But to say that Chinese people in today’s China are “living in harmony” – well, aside from quoting a truly horrible McCartney/Jackson song, it’s not a very accurate description of modern China. The Chinese government reports something like, 86,000 protests in China annually (I think this was in 2006). You have a widening income distribution gap, peasants who are being kicked off their land or poisoned by factories and development, a myriad of social problems.

Maybe the majority of Chinese people do not think that “democracy” is the solution to their problems. But outside of the wealthy cities, I think you will find plenty of people who have real problems and real grievances.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:12 pm | Comment

@MFK
“you’re an idiot. ”
Thank for your compliment. So much for rational discussion ;-P

“Cathy’s from Hong Kong, ”
Part of PRC I believe.

“her viewpoints are as wacky as hong people themselves”
And you complain about western bias and criticism. Interesting mindset indeed.

“Hong Kong’s been a bitch to someone else, previously, to much of my indignation and rage, the rotten teeth UK, and now to China.”
You just made it worst.

“So HK people have been conditioned to beg for goodies from its masters, and thus their wacky world and political views.”
Change HK–>PRC and it works too. (do not forget to change masters–>CCP to really get my point). Interesting word play ins�t ?

Have peace MFK ;-)

April 25, 2008 @ 4:13 pm | Comment

We enjoy our “wackiness”, at least we are free to express. Hong Kong stock exchange has a solid reputation in the world. And we don’t have to deal with so much crap when dealing with our govt.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:15 pm | Comment

Cathy,

fine, I’ll let this one pass, only cuz you didn’t say it was because of your former slave master’s “liberal democratic political & economic system.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:16 pm | Comment

Cao,

where are you, I’m about to either shoot myself or Cathy.

Cathy, stop talking to me, you are beginning to sound like all those annoying HK girls I know. mmmm ho la….stop it, leave me alone.

April 25, 2008 @ 4:18 pm | Comment

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