A predictable response to Grace Wang’s article

Raj

Recently I blogged on Grace Wang’s editorial in the Washington Post. ESWN found a rejoinder to this here.

In my view, Grace Wang’s essay is political suicide. In the language of past history (and somewhat ironically here), she has decided to stand diametrically opposite to the Party and the People. Objectively, one can say that she is a “Public Enemy.”

Ah, yes. China, a country where having an opinion that doesn’t go with the flow is a serious crime. She should have kept her head down and accepted the abuse for not following along with the rest of the herd. After all, internet thugs know best, don’t they?

First, I think that Grace Wang is wrong. The negative impact of that essay goes far beyond her imagination. She has been completely exploited by western media.

Let’s be honest here. The trouble started when Chinese students decided to launch an internet bullying campaign and this was continued by thugs who started harrassing her family. The “Western media” had nothing to do with it. Yet of course, true to form, non-Chinese are quickly blamed as being the source of all evil by “Chairman Rabbit”. Oh, surprise-surprise, there’s more on the I.M.C.M.C.L.B. (“International Media Conspiracy to Make China Look Bad”).

If Grace Wang really wanted to solve the problems and if she loves China, she would have asked the western media to report a fuller picture of China as opposed to just satisfying their pre-defined prejudices and imaginations.

Yes, no need for Grace Wang as a young Chinese woman to try to reason with her own people on the issue in hand. Chinese regularly say that its not for outsiders to comment on “Chinese issues”. Yet if Chinese people disagree with something China does, it’s implied that they have to sort out the rest of the world first? What utter hypocricy.

I tend to think that she is too young and she is very politically naïve to hold those kinds of views.

Now we’re on to age discrimination! Yes, Grace Wang is too young to have her own political views, despite the fact she is probably old enough to vote in most democracies. Or is she too young because she disagrees with the prevailing Chinese attitude?


Mr Rabbit’s commentary is rather manipulative as it repeatedly greatly reads into non-controversial statements by Ms Wang.

This shows that she loves to learn and she has good intentions. The readers will be sympathetic, and even possibly respectful.

And you have evidence that she is lying, Mr Rabbit? Or that she should not say anything about her background? She likes languages – she’s telling the reader something about her. Don’t try to pretend she’s manipulating us – you’re the person manipulating the story here.

But one has to ask: What is the concept of China? She does not employ the concept of the Chinese people as “the multi-ethnic political entity (consisting of 56 different ethnic groups)” and she does not use the narrative based upon the relationship between the Han and Tibetan groups.

Why should she repeat Chinese nationalist propaganda? Quite clearly Chinese, whether that’s Hans or anyone else, are in many ways different and generally divided from Tibetans. When the BBC did a four-part series on China last year, there was a piece which showed a giant propaganda sign in Tibet welcoming the new railway – it was in Chinese, with no Tibetan translation, and none of the Tibetan peasants in the area could read it. That is just one example of how divorced from reality many Chinese are when it comes to Tibet – they don’t even consider how to get their message across to Tibetans in a way they can understand.

There is nothing about Tibetan history, society, policies or challenges (such as those about development and poverty alleviation).

Again, why would she talk about that? She isn’t the Chinese government’s spokeswoman. She had her own views of Tibet, and she freely admits they were unrealistic. She learnt about what some Tibetans actually thought about their situation. That’s more than most Chinese have done.

Finally, her high school revoking her diploma and reinforcing patriotic education also satisfied the western imagination.

So, again, are you suggesting it didn’t happen? Or that she should sweep the petty-mindedness of her old school under the carpet because it’s an “inconvenience” for those Chinese who want to push their own image of their country to the rest of the world?

There is much more drivel from Mr Rabbit, so I won’t bore you with a continued point-by-point analysis. But I’d like to address his closing remarks.

It was just another one-sided demonization of China; it only diminishes the minimal speech space of China within the western media. In the end, it only increases misunderstanding, alienation and conflict about China. From this angle I can only say that Grace Wang was hypocritical and opportunistic.

Quite the opposite, Mr Rabbit. The only hypocricy and opportunism is coming from you. A young university student wanted to do her own thing and she was treated disgracefully for it, as was her family. Yet you spend a few lines talking about how such criminal activities were wrong, the rest blithering on about how she was wrong to want to tell her own story in the only medium available to her that would reach many others – the Chinese media would never give her space. Well after all the lies and hate spread about her, she had the right. Your analysis was a shameful attempt to undermine her defence, whilst also being a vehicle for having a bash at the foreign media for disrupting your pride.

I would like to thank Roland for translating this entry as it demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of some Chinese bloggers like Mr Rabbit. Only by being able to read this sort of garbage can we truly understand the problems people like Grace Wang have when trying to reason with those who are themselves unreasonable. I do hope, though, that the reason no positive blog entries were posted on ESWN was not that no Chinese netizens had sympathy for her. It really would bode badly for China’s future if victims of bullying are not offered aid simply because they don’t conform.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 111 Comments

“Denial is a defense mechanism’ postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimisation) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference).”

April 26, 2008 @ 7:52 am | Comment

Grace Wang has the right to express her views.

Chairman Rabbit has the right to express his.

Raj also has the right to express his moral outrage as usual

April 26, 2008 @ 8:47 am | Comment

@Raj

When I read all this garbage that has been heaped on Grace Wang, it seems to me that he has committed the most heinous of sins, she has violated the “Law of Jante”:

1 Thou shalt not believe thou art something.
2 Thou shalt not believe thou art as good as we.
3 Thou shalt not believe thou art as wise as we.
4 Thou shalt not fancy thyself better than we.
5 Thou shalt not believe thou knowest more than we.
6 Thou shalt not believe thou are greater than we.
7 Thou shalt not believe thou amountest to anything.
8 Thou shalt not laugh at us.
9 Thou shalt not believe that anyone is concerned with thee.
10 Thou shalt not believe thou canst teach us anything.

April 26, 2008 @ 9:11 am | Comment

Chinese Propaganda by Divo – “Whip It!”

http://viddigger.blogspot.com/2007/08/devo-whip-it.html

Crack that whip
give the past the slip
step on a crack
break your momma’s back

When a problem comes along
you must whip it
before the cream sits out too long
you must whip it
when something’s going wrong
you must whip it

Now whip it
into shape
shape it up
get straight
go forward
move ahead
try to detect it
it’s not too late
to whip it
whip it good

When a good time turns around
you must whip it
you will never live it down
unless you whip it
no one gets their way
until they whip it
i say whip it
whip it good

I say whip it
Whip it good
I say whip it
Whip it good

Crack that whip
give the past the slip
step on a crack
break your momma’s back

When a problem comes along
you must whip it
before the cream sits out too long
you must whip it
when something’s going wrong
you must whip it

Now whip it
into shape
shape it up
get straight
go forward
move ahead
try to detect it
it’s not too late
to whip it
into shape
shape it up
get straight
go forward
move ahead
try to detect it
it’s not too late
to whip it
whip it good

April 26, 2008 @ 9:11 am | Comment

From from “political suicide”, she’s got it made as the new spokens-person of Western “democracy”.

April 26, 2008 @ 9:56 am | Comment

I hope everyone now understand “harmony”.

April 26, 2008 @ 9:57 am | Comment

Currently, she’s probably the most hated person to ever have came out of my hometown other than perhaps, Jiang Qing.

And the reason is simple.

For years, the West has backed people like Wei Jingsheng and Wang Dan and purported that they spoke for the Chinese people and used it to justify every crime that was ever committed against the Chinese.

They were simply demonstrating that she did not spoke for the Chinese and hoped in vain she would not be used by the West as a propaganda tool against China.

Sadly, they had no idea how it goes in the West and through their idiotic action made a hero out of that opportunist.

April 26, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

This certainly impacts that lawsuit that chinese beautician and I forgot what the other was a teacher, yeh a teacher.

that lawsuit they filed in NYC against CNN suing for damages from that awful remark made by Jack Cafferty. They are requesting $1 damages for each of the 1.3B chinese citizens who suffered for the remark. for a total of $1.3B

But now that grace has been excommunicated that means one less dollar so they will have to change the legal briefs to $1 for the 1,299,999,999 chinese people who suffered mental anguish when they became aware through the national chinese osmosis network that a westerner had said something tangentially related to the shared national shame feeling instilled by constant reminder and education by the paternal government of the motherland, i believe reverend wright shots out a lesson on the national shame with a bullhorn. i wonder why they don’t watch that reverend wright video, you now that should be popular in the PRC

what we need is a global intervention program to confront our chinese friends with assertive tough love to deprogram them, they have been kidnapped by some nefarious cult, let us shower them with tough love, it will be hard but we can do

April 26, 2008 @ 10:30 am | Comment

“Grace Wang has the right to express her views.

Chairman Rabbit has the right to express his.

Raj also has the right to express his moral outrage as usual”

Rather radical opinions? Can you back those assertions with proof? Rights as humans? Rights as citizens of the PRC? Rights as a visitor to the US where people have a Bill of Rights? The Right to instigate social instability?

Just stating they have rights on an anonymous blog forum doesn’t mean anything.

You have no authority.

April 26, 2008 @ 10:37 am | Comment

@Wayne (are you posting from the US of A?)

“Raj, if an American went round saying thet September 11 was just desserts (as it was) for US foreign policy, freedom of speech notwithstanding, do you think he would find it hard going in America and that some Americans would want to take his head off? And that ninety nine percent of Americans would oppose him?”

What did Grace Wang say that could be compared to your statement about 9/11 above?

“This Grace Wang, is obviously a showboater, she wants to be noticed (“I was born for politics”). Well she sure got noticed all right.”

That’s all you have to say about a person who tried to understand both sides of the issue. Now we know what you guys mean when you call us “biased”.

“She utterly deserves all the opprobrium that has, is and will be heaped upon her – until she issues an apology.”

I see, whoever happens to disagree with what is declared the official opinion of the Chinese people deserves to be slandered, threatened and cast out of society – and their families as well. Unless they do the kowtow. Wayne, whoever you are, you are certainly helping to promote China’s image in the world.

“Nothing to do with freedom of speech.”

Please tell me, what is freedom of speech in your world?

“As long as all actions against her remain within legal limits of the country she is currently in, then that is fine.”

Like emptying a bucket of shit in front of her parents home? Is that legal in the PRC? I’m so glad I left.

“Freedom of speech does not include freedom from a rancorous reaction towards your views. ”

Wait, till you are at the receiving end of a “rancorous reaction” towards your views.

“And Raj, just what is your beef with the Chinese people?”

Raj never had a beef with the Chinese people. He expressed sympathy for Grace Wang – who happens to be a Chinese person.

“What have we ever done to YOU?”

Are you actually Chinese, Wayne, or are you just another Canadian clown?

April 26, 2008 @ 10:53 am | Comment

“They were simply demonstrating that she did not spoke for the Chinese and hoped in vain she would not be used by the West as a propaganda tool against China.”

By calling her a traitor, making death threats and giving detailed instructions on how to reach her parent’s house. And this when she wasn’t supporting Tibetan independence, but instead trying to act as a mediator between the two sides.

If I had to choose which side was more useful for the insidious, China-bashing Western media in portraying China in a bad light, and my options were:

A) A teenage girl who tries to get Tibetan and Chinese protestors to work out their differences peacefully.

or…

B) A mass of ranting fen qing who label people traitors and call for them to be boiled in oil for not falling 100% lock-step in line with their views.

….I know which one I would choose.

We would have never heard of Grace Wang if it weren’t for the hysterical reactions of the fen qing. She isn’t the news here; our beloved wannabe neo-Red Guards are. If anything, she is good for China’s image; speaking as a Westerner, I tend to get better vibes from people who come across as trying to understand the other side (regardless of who is correct) than I do from repeated displays of willingness to drink the CCP kool-aid. If there had been no Grace Wang and only the fen qing and Chinese like you who whitewash their stupidity, my opinion of China would be lower, not higher.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:04 am | Comment

Hey Raj,

Are we still talking about Grace Wang? I thought we were done with that days ago.

Why don’t you invest in a good Chinese-English dictionary, and curl up with this thread instead. It shows the kind of *discussion* going on on a typical mainland forum, in response to Beijing’s offer to speak with the Dalai Lama:

http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/sport/1/123409.shtml

April 26, 2008 @ 11:16 am | Comment

The fenqing at Duke should be required to compensate the University monetarily for their uprising and uncivilized behavior.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:18 am | Comment

I have much more understanding and respect for Hu Jin Tao and Xi Jinping. There is hope.

http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/sport/1/123409.shtml

How would they know if he is lying or not. They don’t know who he is, they don’t know anything he has said. They have never seen him. It is pathetic.

But something needs to be done about the national temper tantrum by all these spoiled brats. Perhaps china will introduce a new national sport this summer. The people’s armed police equiped with paddles to administer a public spanking to all the members of Love Me China clique caught whining in public.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:29 am | Comment

“Raj fancies himself as the great ‘white knight’ out to rescue dusky maidens from the evil clutches of their own primitive and morally benighted menfolk.”

What nonsense. The women who attack Grace Wang are also primitive and morally benighted.

Or, probably more accurately, just really, really predictable.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:40 am | Comment

Regarding your reference

http://www.colorq.org/Articles/article.aspx?d=2000&x=asianwomen

If I was a boor and uncivilized I would make an insinuation at this juncture about race and the length of the male sex organ playing a role in the reciprocal interest of the female’s of these races mentioned for western males.

It is sad people spend so much time writing crap like that. Must have been some master’s students these.

It is actually called the Damsel in Distress syndrome. The white knight saving the damsel from a black knight or a dragon. My in the western subconscience the dragon is associated with virile asian males, hence the involuntary compunction to rescue them.

Wow. With that one I have fuflilled the thesis requirement for a MSc in crosscultural psychology.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:43 am | Comment

Not so fast Doug. It makes me uneasy if our leader is ‘respected’ by the west. I hope it’s just you and not the general westerners.

Just in case I can change your opinion. It’s been pointed out that the CCP will talk with Dalai ONLY about his own personal future.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:44 am | Comment

“Those who claim that Chinese for national unity are brainwashed by communist propaganda could not be more mistaken. Sun Yat-sen himself said the Han, Manchu, Hui, Mongolian and Tibetan peoples are the ‘five fingers’ of China. And of course the KMT on Taiwan claims not only Tibet for China but also all of Mongolia (probably rightly so).”

That ‘probably rightly so’ is tremendously revealing.

Is it your view that people are the property of their country, regardless of the views of the people who live there? Presuming you are really Chinese, are you the property of the government in Beijing, regardless of what kind of government that is and whether or not you agree with it’s policies? Or is the government, ideally, an expression of the will of the people, meant to defend those people and their rights rather than impose it’s own unwanted control over others who want nothing to do with it?

This, I think, is the root of the ugly mentality which has lead to the problems in Tibet…and Taiwan, for that matter. In your view,there are certain areas which are Chinese, regardless of the will of the inhabitants. If half the population of those areas has to be exterminated to remind them that they are Chinese, so be it. We must not divide our arbitrarily defined idea of China as the Qing Empire at it’s height!

I prefer to take the view that, no, a 17th century map which shows that Mongolia was part of the Qing Empire (Manchu, not even Han Chinese, but we can forget how illegitimate many Han Chinese felt the Manchu empire was if it gives us the right to seize control of more territory, can’t we?) does not trump the MODERN DAY, POPULAR will of the people of Mongolia. Or Tibet. Or Taiwan. Or Xinjiang. Or anywhere else.

If you can convince the people of those territories that they should be a part of China, then they are. If you can only maintain your control at gunpoint and through flooding the area with Han Chinese, then Chinese rule over them is as illegitimate as the worst ever done to China itself by European colonialists.

“But of course the girl is young and can avoid further problems just by a public apology and display of genuine contrition.”

A few centuries ago China was one of the greatest centers of culture, philosophy, and learning in the world. Now I am speaking with you, a grown Chinese man who genuinely believes that expressing ‘wrong’ opinions requires an apology while leaving shit on the doorstep of the parents of people who hold ‘wrong’ opinions is a heroic act of patriotism.

I would like you to reflect on that for a second and consider who is REALLY doing damage to China’s reputation around the world.

April 26, 2008 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

The Chinese gave too much credit to Grace Wong for disgracing the entire China. I am surprised so many Chinese put so much attention into one person’s words. Another example of Chinese bashing other Chinese 10 nastier than they would to foreigners.

April 26, 2008 @ 12:37 pm | Comment

Chinese tell the western nations to let others live and let live, how come Chinese don’t let other Chinese live and let live? This hysteria over Grace Wang is SILLY.

April 26, 2008 @ 12:40 pm | Comment

The people who made death threats to Grace’ s parents are shameful.

April 26, 2008 @ 12:47 pm | Comment

Chinese people are not to have their own points of view? Why couldn’t Grace Wang disagree? She wasn’t even doing that in China, she is in a free country. There’s only one way to love China is to agree with everybody? Even though inside one is afraid to be outnumbered? What kind of mindset is that? Isn’t there critical thinking with Chinese people? The people who were doing criminal acts to her parents, how can they do that with complete disregard to others? What had Grace Wang done but expressing her OWN opinion? One could disagree with her but to threaten her family those people who did that are the “goons and thugs”!

April 26, 2008 @ 12:56 pm | Comment

@Wayne (you are a yankee, aren’t you?)

“Well what about people that point out that the real reasons for Sept 11, had nothing to do with attacking ‘freedom and democracy’, but all to do with the egregious record of the US in respect of its foreign policy? These people are similarly drowned out with howls of outrage- even though what they say is perfectly correct. Sept 11 was just desserts for Americans killing half a million Iraqi children through sanctions, its support of Israel and its occupation of holy Islamic lands (by the way China has zero troops stationed on foreign soil – apart from a few peace-keepers).”

What on earth do your 9/11 conspiracy theories have to do with Grace Wang? An honest, brave young lady who simply cared to hear both sides of the story.

“Every country has something that they hold sacred. Try and insult the Thai King in Thailand, the Dalai Lama in front of a group of Tibetan exiles, the memory of war dead in America, the memory of the Anzac troopers in Australia or New Zealand. You would be getting at least as bad as buckets of excrement on your front door-step.”

Grace Wang didn’t insult anybody. And your pathetic attempt of justifying the act of throwing shit in front of innocent people’s doorsteps just shows what a pig you are.

“Suggesting that Tibet should not be part of China, or even expressing sympathy for this viewpoint is an insult to all Chinese the world over.”

Number one, as far as I know, Grace Wang didn’t suggest that.
Number two, when you are talking about “all Chinese” you are only talking for yourself. I happen to know a few Chinese people who happen to disagree with you.

“How would for instance would Australians react if China actively supported aboriginal independence groups in Australia to declare Northern Territories an independent republic, and demanded that all white australians be ethnically cleansed from the Northern Territories to avoid ‘swamping’ the indigenous? Imagine the outrage from white Australia. Yet this is EXACTLY what some in the West demand of China.”

The Australian government treats Aborigines much better than the Chinese government treats its citizens, not to talk about ethnic minorities. You just don’t know about that, because you are too busy enjoying the American way of life.

“Those who claim that Chinese for national unity are brainwashed by communist propaganda could not be more mistaken. Sun Yat-sen himself said the Han, Manchu, Hui, Mongolian and Tibetan peoples are the ‘five fingers’ of China. And of course the KMT on Taiwan claims not only Tibet for China but also all of Mongolia (probably rightly so).”

Did I miss something? Is the KMT ruling mainland China, including Tibet, now?

“Untold millions of CHinese fought and died for national sovereignty and national unity. Those who would wish to balkanize China and take her back to the days of the Opium War deserve all the opprobrium and contempt that may be heaped upon them. Hopefully a bucketful of shit is just the start.”

So your point is, the fact that Grace Wang tried to intermediate between two opposing groups of students means she wants to balkanize China? You are even a greater comedian than Ferin and Yang Rui combined. I advise you to quickly call CCTV. They probably have a job for you.

“But of course the girl is young and can avoid further problems just by a public apology and display of genuine contrition.”

That’s how freedom of speech is understood in the world of spoiled Chinese youngsters, getting their American university degrees on money their corrupt parents have embezzled from poor, hard working farmers, posing as “servants of the people” before legging it from their “beloved mother country” to the English speaking democracies their spoiled brats claim to hate so much while enjoying all the privileges provided by us goddamn stupid laowai taxpayers. You know what, Wayne, go back to the great farmers’ and workers’ paradise PRC and share the life of a migrant worker, just for one week, and then we talk, you pathetic little excuse for a fenqing.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:00 pm | Comment

Why do mainland Chinese always tell other Chinese how they should behave, what they should say, how they should feel?

April 26, 2008 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

I thought the mindset of all these so called having Western styled education young people are more rational and independent, more reasoned, but the way they criticize Grace Wang sound like some 98 year old woman telling me how I should do the dishes, which is her way, and that’s the only right way.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:07 pm | Comment

While the young Chinese who do the criticizing of Grace Wang are enjoying the materialistic comforts of the new China, their mindsets of treating their fellow Chinese are still stuck in the 18th century, don’t respect their fellow Chinese human rights to express.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

It’s sad that you don’t find articles in China on denouncing such acts of threats to Grace Wang parents.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:13 pm | Comment

When the first time the NY Times reported on her, most Americans didn’t pay special attention to her, but to think she is just voicing an opinion which is different. Yet the Chinese made such a big fuss over it. Stupid, juvenile, totally.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

Why is Ms. Wang being labelled opportunist? She has grabbed which opportunity? To have her countrymen persecute her and spew vile toward her, and terrorize her family and destroy her reputation? Oh yeah, I wish it was me, wo what an opportunity, I’m so jealous! not

Do youz think she has done all this to gain something? All she did was take a little, very insignificant action. All she did was try to be a moderator according to her view of how things should be discussed… Do you really think she had it all planned so that she could be in a Washington Post article??? Wow, that is really farfetched… The ChCommunists are the ones to give her this opportunity. If they didnt throw poop on her house and call her the worste anti Chinese demon etc, then she would be just a plain girl to moderate a tense debate between two groups. She would definitely NOT be in the news and there would be plenty people of the same thinking as her on the subject. But no, she is in the news because you hate her. try not being so hateful and no one will feel sorry for any victim, what totally totally irrational thinking is going on here???

Also, I think it was Wayne who called for her to make an apology… What EXACTLY should she apologize for? I guess she could apologize for writing free Tibet and that would make everyone stop hating her??? She said she only did it in order to treat them with respect and treat both groups like equals, she IS HAN, so she is not a Tibetan splittist, she said she was only trying to moderate between the two groups….

April 26, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

98 year old woman presumably has lots of experience washing dishes.

I think Grace Wang is probably “too simple, sometimes naive”.

She certainly does know how to make herself look good to her targeted audience though.

In any case she is not accomplishing her stated goal of being a cultural ambassador.

That said. I don’t agree with the treatment of Grace Wang. People should be allowed to be stupid and have hated positions.

If you didn’t agree with her view, the best way would’ve been simply ignoring her. Harassing her and focus center of attention on her not only make us look bad but also give her the spotlight and wider platform to speak out.

But there are bound to be people on your side that are as dumb as those protesters disrupting the torch relay. You just got to recognize it as a part of life, let the other side briefly enjoy their propaganda victory, and move on.

They may win a battle, but we are going to win the war.

Now it’s time for me to leave the computer terminal and meet the outside world.

Cheers!

April 26, 2008 @ 1:37 pm | Comment

Isnt it strange that if the fenqing are so sure to hold on to these portions of China… (you INSIST that NO WAY in heck that Tibet should ever be split and all that jazz, Taiwan, Hong Kong blah blah…)

So Wasn’t Ms. Wang trying to help that cause? The fact that the fenqing commies are against the Tibetan people screaming with their flags and opposing their thinking, that is the REASON why the Tibetans want to disassociate from China. If you wanna solve the problem why cant you look at the problem? Grace was trying to deal with the problem instead of just continuing to push the Tibetans away by screaming a them and treating them like Han’s property.

I would say that Ch ppl, just look at the problem. The CCP drives these sections away, thats the FACT. So why Fenqing dont blame CCP for breaking the country by being a big asshole? Why dont they protest to make CCP stop treating people with hate and propaganda? The Tibetan people dont like the stupid commie attitude ruling their land and their minds, so who is really to blame for busting up China?

April 26, 2008 @ 1:50 pm | Comment

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492

This is a pretty interesting video of a guy who went undercover in Tibet…

April 26, 2008 @ 2:12 pm | Comment

Wayne, your always name calling is not good for you. There are lots of different opinions and loads of misconceptions (you are often wrong too) so get used to it.

April 26, 2008 @ 2:16 pm | Comment

If I were a true Chinese patriot I’d be pretty annoyed at the way the fenqing have behaved. Just when the old Western stereotypes of Chinese as brainwashed hordes, driven by propaganda and with no individual thoughts of their own was starting to fade away, these guys live up to it in front of the global media. If making China look bad is unpatriotic, then they’re all traitors.

April 26, 2008 @ 2:25 pm | Comment

Yeah I think we the Chinese have the obligation to correct the Western stereotypes of us goons and thugs.

My ass.

April 26, 2008 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

@Wayne
“How many Africans, Asians, South Americans, Russians oppose our policies in Tibet.”
One Southamerican here. ;-)

About Africa, well, maybe not about TB, but did you hear about that ship CH that had to reroute back to CH?

About Russia, what happen in TB with influx of Han in the region and its end result is not going to some fears in in some east Russia.

About Asians. Are TB asians, aren’t they? What about the monks from that JP temple supposed to be start point?

April 26, 2008 @ 2:51 pm | Comment

“How many Africans, Asians, South Americans, Russians oppose our policies in Tibet.”

I can tell you a few Africans and Asians who might have opinions about ‘your’ policies in Burma and Sudan.

April 26, 2008 @ 2:54 pm | Comment

Cao Meng De

At least Grace Wang is not a twinky. You know what the worst kind of twinky is? Sometimes the machine jams and no white cream is injected into the yellow cake. So you get a twinky that is yellow on the outside, but inside it is just hollow and empty. It’s really not even a twinky. It’s not really a yellow sponge cake. Just a yellow exterior with nothing inside. Not accepted by the yellow sponge cake community. Doesn’t fit in with the other twinkies. Not accepted by the white cream community. Sad.

April 26, 2008 @ 2:56 pm | Comment

@Pillsbury Dough Boy

Boy oh boy you are clever. Your dirty-word-less insult would surely inflict devastating mental suffering in your target … if he/she subscribes to the religion that there is only possible white substance or none inside a person.

Care to take a shot again against a non-believer?

April 26, 2008 @ 3:18 pm | Comment

empty inside
no understanding
words falling on deaf ears
like endless waves
caressing the cold sand
of a deserted beach

April 26, 2008 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

@wayne
“By-and-large the people in the West are those who assume a position of moral authority and bash everyone else for perceived abuses of ‘human rights.’”

You are joining two different things. Actually three
1) “West” + “Self rightous”
2) Human rights. (violation or not)

Your argumentation is a variation of an Ad Hominem fallacy. You blame your opponent of being “west”, which seems to have a negative quality in your argumentation. And you also blame your opponent of Self righteousness. That is the basics of that fallacy which is used to try to invalidate an opponenst argumentation.

The fact that I am, in your opinion, “West” and also self rightous does not bring any logical consequence to the question: Are HR being violated or not? The best counter argumentation would be to provide sound logical arguments to base, that in your opinion HR are not being violated at all or at least not to a significant degree.

Another valid argumentation would be to say that you consider HR an invalid concept in itself.

Your argumentation seems to me just a defensive move.
A consequence of a state of “self denial” (I do not believe HR are violated no matter what proves are forwarded), or attempt to hide that you basically rejects the very concept under discussion (Unalienable rights of any Human being)

April 26, 2008 @ 4:01 pm | Comment

Is this the winter of our discontent? wait no its spring so it must a tale told you know by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying….. say it….say it…..SAY IT………

nothing.

April 26, 2008 @ 4:21 pm | Comment

@Wayne
About Russia.

IMHO Russia balances between two positions, depending on ongoing situation.

When it feels its economic/political interests menaced by the West it turns closer to CH, and when its feels menaced by CH it turns to Europe.

Any development in Europe or CH has its effect on which side will Russia stay closer. And what is going in TB has its impact in Russian far east, and therefore in Russian opinion.

Two disadvantages for CH is that Russia is

1)Culturally closer to Europe.
2)Europe menace is political (limitation of Russian influence) and economical (that menace has been greatly reduced by Putins governmet).
But CH menace is territorial (a menace as criticaly perceived as in CH) and maybe even military, in a extreme case, in a not distance future.

That makes some CH actions/actitudes increasingly more sensitive in Russians minds.

April 26, 2008 @ 4:24 pm | Comment

@Wayne:

Why Peter, do you think your opinion of us counts for so much.

Because of China’s reaction (at least on the Internet) to unfavourable Western opinion.

I guess this will pass. In another generation or so, China will be more self-confident and criticism won’t be such a big deal.

April 26, 2008 @ 5:02 pm | Comment

Grace Wang didn’t support Tibetan independant, she said she wanted Hans and Tibetans to understand each other, so I still don’t see how the Chinese would turn it around and accuse her as “traitor”, I don’t see any logic in the Chinese side at all. Do Chinese people agree with threatening her family?

April 26, 2008 @ 5:08 pm | Comment

The more moderate views are not even being heard, I guess one could say that the western press didn’t try to interview those who agree with Grace Wang(but then no one would have the guts to do the interview, given what happened to Grace Wang family), to not just follow blindly, but to examine and question, then act upon.

April 26, 2008 @ 5:12 pm | Comment

Wong Dur, he was the most rational of all the student leaders, during Tiennamen Square, yet he was the one who got jailed. Too bad the brightest and more logical ones have no place in a society such as mainland China, they would just be labeled as “traitor” and be put away if they dare to examine, and seek the truth, instead of just follow the mass and listen and obey the rules.

April 26, 2008 @ 5:33 pm | Comment

CCT

Hey Raj,

Are we still talking about Grace Wang? I thought we were done with that days ago.

I don’t scour ESWN every day. I come across material and when I have the time or interest to comment on something there I do.

By the way, everyone, please ignore wayne – he’s a returning (unwelcome) user.

April 26, 2008 @ 5:34 pm | Comment

I guess one could say that the western press didn’t try to interview those who agree with Grace Wang

How exactly was the US media supposed to interview random Chinese on this? As you say, if any did view her sympathetically they’d be unlikely to say so – and it isn’t big enough news to warrant stopping people on the street.

I still don’t see how the Chinese would turn it around and accuse her as “traitor”

Because you don’t agree with their position. With some Chinese on issues like Tibet it is a case of “you are with us, or against us” – there is nowhere in between.

April 26, 2008 @ 5:39 pm | Comment

are “cathy” and “cathy w” the same person?

April 26, 2008 @ 5:51 pm | Comment

@wayne
“Ecodelta: you too are stupid. ”
Thanks wayne

“Western Europe who feel they have the moral authority to pontificate on other peoples problems.”
Ad Hominen again, brings no logic to the argument.

“But it is ONLY the West which seems to believe it alone has the moral authority to lecture others on their ‘behaviour.’”
I am West? I half spaniard, half southamerican, indian (not hindu), african and arab blood run through my veins. And from culture belong to more worlds than you think. With arabs, I am cosidered arab, with southamericans I am considered southamerican, with Spaniards I am considered Spaniard. With other people… well, sometimes they have difficulties to classify me ;-)

“Is it because whites think that they exclusively have the right to determine what constitutes ‘human rights?’ ”
In summer I am not so “white”. I am turning shade of brown already.
I was asked in US where I come from because I looked… too dark!
Remember once with an Asian friend who said to me… You white people!… I put my arm besides and said. You are whiter than me! ;-)

“Or is it because the West feels that their past behaviour is morally superior to that of every non-white nation?”
The sins or glories of my culture past do not have any effect nor justify nor limit how I judge the present.

When defending your opinions you should learn better argumentation.
If you are right, you are loosing unknowingly your case.
If you are wrong, your making it too clear.
If you are deceiving, you are revealing your game too clearly.
Look for some counsel, no need to look in the “West”. Enough things you will find to learn in your own culture, Chinese I suppose.
A Great Culture indeed, learn from it!

April 26, 2008 @ 5:58 pm | Comment

@DJ
“are “cathy” and “cathy w” the same person?”

Maybe close relative?

April 26, 2008 @ 6:00 pm | Comment

@Raj
“By the way, everyone, please ignore wayne – he’s a returning (unwelcome) user.”
Never mind a good (dialectic) fight from time to time Raj ;-)

Usually I prefer to engage people even when they sound too blatant. Sometimes there is more behind than it seems, hidden to me by the words they use. Sometimes I misunderstood their words. Sometimes I misunderstood myself. Sometimes they open up.. even a little and …. sometimes it is useless.
But something new is always learned. ;-)

April 26, 2008 @ 6:17 pm | Comment

@DJ

It’s amazing how many trolls are camped out here. Pillsbury Dough Boy is now on my ignore list along with certain obnoxiously self-righteous person.

April 26, 2008 @ 6:41 pm | Comment

DJ,

Cathy and Cathyw is the same person. Just ignore her, she forgot her medication, she’s talking to herself again.

April 26, 2008 @ 7:47 pm | Comment

The whole Grace Wang is the latest in the usual Mainland Chinese backlash concerning any one–Chinese or Foreign–who dares to dispute their illusions and/or narrow-minded stupidity; and frankly, I’m sick of it.

Sick of the mob mentality, sick of the racist trash, and sick of utter immaturity–it’s a sad state of affairs. Reminds me of a 6 year having a tantrum in Kroger around the gum machines.

April 26, 2008 @ 9:44 pm | Comment

“One World, One Dream”

Freud said that every dream represents the fulfilment of a repressed wish.

I think that it’s all a big sexual “thang”. If you listen to how Chinese males talk about foreign males, it’s all about Chinese vagina. Even the torch is a phallic symbol, and the “Birds Nest” is a symbolic vagina.

Chinese Nationalism; Chinese Dignity—As the Tom Cruise character, T.J. Macky, said in the movie “Magnolia”: “Respect the COCK, and tame the Cxxxnt!”

April 26, 2008 @ 10:00 pm | Comment

And now, for a change, a little Spanish over the top nationalism…

F.Alonso 2nd at the pole tomorrow in Barcelona!
It is going to be a interesting Formula 1 race in Montmelo circuit.
Puxa Fernando!

To UK colleagues. Sorry guys, you had your chance last year with him. But you blew it with Hamilton.

And please, do not take this things nationalistic things so bad like some of our CH colleagues ;-)
Must go. Have urging need to find some UK nationals to mob…. where is my flag?…. (L)Spain
(Just kidding, well… half kidding ;-)

April 26, 2008 @ 10:28 pm | Comment

Just think, if she were labeled a Enemy Combatant, she would be in really big trouble.

April 26, 2008 @ 11:21 pm | Comment

Remember the scene in the movie “Thelma and Louise” when the cowboy (played by Brad Pitt) who humped Thelma said to Thelma’s husband:

[Smiling and thrusting his hips back and forth] “I really enjoyed your wife.”

April 26, 2008 @ 11:40 pm | Comment

@Middle Finger Kingdom

Re: “Cathy and Cathyw is the same person. Just ignore her, she forgot her medication, she’s talking to herself again.”

Haha. The image of the fish Deb and her reflection Flo from Finding Nemo immediately come up in my mind.

Deb: Kid, if there’s anything you need, just ask your auntie Deb. That’s me. Or if I’m not around, you can talk to my sister, Flo.
[swims up to her reflection]
Deb: Hi, how are ya?
[Turn aound to Nemo]
Deb: Don’t listen to anything my sister says, she’s nuts!

April 27, 2008 @ 12:34 am | Comment

@snow

Very interesting video. I suggest everybody watch it.

@raj

Is Wayne the Guy posting from Down Under? I find it very telling that all those commenters who usually are up in arms whenever they perceive something as “bias against China” seem to have nothing to say about Wayne’s rants against an innocent Chinese lady and her innocent Chinese family. What a bunch of hypocrites!

April 27, 2008 @ 12:39 am | Comment

Note to Richard and others,

BOB is officially the gone off the deep end, has jump the shark, jump the couch, or however you want to label it.

He is now persona non grata on this blog.

April 27, 2008 @ 1:00 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior”
“provided the West is respectful and shows adequate contrition for its historic crimes against China.”
Sorry but we do not kow tow. Have problem on the back. Simply cant do it ;-P

” If the West continues to insult and bully China, China has every right to demand that these debts be repaid in full. Just carry on along the same path, white man – your chickens will come home to roost.”
By the way, follow good counsel of Singapore President. Keep calm and smile for another 40 years. Do not be hasty. Hastiness is a bad counselor.

April 27, 2008 @ 2:28 am | Comment

Why don’t you guys talk a little bit about the new visa policy.

1) No one actually knows what it is, but people are getting out of China and then are not able to come back – by the thousands!

2) Every foreigner in here is getting nuts. Me included.

April 27, 2008 @ 2:45 am | Comment

Mongol Warrior stated in outrage:
what are you sick of? All you have to do is turn off the TV. HOw the fuck to Chinese peoples views on other Chinese, or on CHina’s internal affairs affect you for fucks sake?

It affects me because I fuck a lot of Chinese babes, you little walking abortion! Now, get the hell away from the gum ball machine before I inject lead paint into your little yellow bottom when it’s not taking a shit on the sidewalk!

PS: your English really sucks; if you kowtow to your foreign masters, it might improve.

:)

April 27, 2008 @ 3:15 am | Comment

Damn, I don’t know what mental asylum Mister Pickles escaped from, but it’s amazing how so many nut-cases end up here on the Peking Duck. Is it possible that some people actually write their posts for a totally different website and just end up here by mistake?

April 27, 2008 @ 4:40 am | Comment

Mor,

I escaped from the whole national asylum known as China, and once I escaped, I was euphoric, and still am–crazily so. I don’t miss that swamp-shit of a country one fuckng bit.

and to answer your question:

Yes; it’s possible. If Beijing can host the summer Olympics, shit, anything’s fucking possible!

April 27, 2008 @ 4:58 am | Comment

Dear Middle Finger Kingdom:

I find it entirely appropriate to apply a Freudian analysis of the underlying sexual fantasies in your postings as well in the Olympic torch (phallic symbol) and the “Birds Nest” (symbolic vagina). Basically, the Olympics will be a giant, collective mass masturbation ritual. It suspect that there’ll metaphorically be red semon raining from the skies of Beijing. China’s message to the world: “Respect the COCK! And tame the cxxxnt!”

April 27, 2008 @ 11:14 am | Comment

I think cathy might be a little overbearing… But she is pretty correct I would have to say.. I like the way she just says things simply and straight to the point.. i also dont think that she should be called obnoxious and all that just because she is moralistic and a bit tactless… I mean there are a lot worse things than being preachy right? Like not caring and saying things like just ignore her, she didnt take her medicine” I mean isn’t that worse? Anyway, I just thought it was interesting…..

April 27, 2008 @ 2:36 pm | Comment

@Romeo

I agree with Romeo that we should move beyond the already much discussed issues related to TB crackdown and Torch relay.

Anything new in preparation?

April 27, 2008 @ 4:23 pm | Comment

@snow

You seem like a reasonable even though overly idealistic fellow, so I will attempt to answer your questions,

I don’t presume to speak for all Chinese people but I believe that very few will object if Chinese society is to turn into a giant version of Sweden overnight.

Do I not want to live in a society where freedom of expression is protected, diversity of opinions are tolerated and people treat each with dignity and respect with social justice for all? Of course!

As someone who was born and partly grew up in China, I know how far China has come and how far it still has to go. I grew up with stories told by grandparents, parents and uncles and aunts about dark days of Cultural Revolution, so I have an idea how bad it used to be. I also witnessed how things are changing for the better as I was growing up. I still remember when my grandparents bought their first black and white TV in 1980. It was the first TV in the area that neighbors would come to Gramps’ place after dinner to watch TV programs.

I also remember the diner table conversations where Grandpa, who was sent to labor camp during the Anti-Rightist Campaigns of 50s and remained there throughout the Cultural Revolution, would rail against CCP policies. I also heard enough stories about Cultural Revolution to know that even these private conversations would have been extremely dangerous back in the days before Deng Xiao Ping came to power.

Do I really need someone like Cathy, who never experienced China like mainlanders have, to lecture me about mainlander mentality? Hell No!

In short, I have no problem with the message just the messenger.

btw, I am not holding out for China to turn into Scandinavia writ large but I will settle for a version of US where citizens enjoy rights and freedom domestically but with aggression and violence directed outwards.

April 27, 2008 @ 4:53 pm | Comment

Middle Kingdom Finger:

Chinese Nationalism: “Respect the COCK!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2IVF9a2IA

April 28, 2008 @ 12:19 am | Comment

Cao Meng,

Yes, you are also reasonable enough fellow, but from reading your last comments, I would have to say that you are missing information… Or maybe you have a really low standard, I guess it would be one or the other…

As for Cathy, well, I guess she just wants more displays of caring. I think people like you who have some history but who dont seem to think much of the whole thing give people like Cathy the impression that you are satisfied with the status quo and are, pretty heartless… I’m just interpreting. I would say that the cultural revolution is not over. More people choose to take the side of the CCP because they dont really believe in justice and ideals anymore, they just want “harmony” so they just do whats safest and they make some money. Chinese used to be more idealistic like 1989 stuff.. It seems the cultural revolution is over BECAUSE IT WORKED, it took away peoples ideals and replaced with obedience, the 1989 incident had the same function. the country gets more and more “harmonize” and more and more trivial and uncaring… What do you think about that? I am not saying you have to start protesting and all, but I just see Cathy and think that she isnt wrong by being warmblooded. Accepting the status quo for China now IS horrendous and either have such very low standard OR just are really not getting enough info about the party tactics on dissident innocent people who want to do good.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:18 am | Comment

@ Cao Meng: this world is becoming a village, and all of us should get used to being lectured. One of China’s leading academics says: “I don’t expect other countries to accept Confucius, but if China and the world uses Confucian theory as a basis for international relations, it would benefit everyone, as moral rightness would overcome self-interest.” He calls this part of “the rise of Chinese cultural hegemony.”

Neither of us will need to go into a Confucius Institute every time to hear such soundbytes now and in the future. And neither of us will need to go to the State Department’s website to hear some catchwords from its latest human rights report.
But we can stay focused on what really interests us. The good news is that we only need to listen if a lecture catches our interest. And if Chinese ppl want to lecture me about my country or culture and I see that they have a point, I will listen.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:23 am | Comment

Hello everyone,

(thank you for acknowledging me, ecodelta)

The hottest new topic is the Chinese gov’t expelling pretty much all owners of small and medium enterprises this summer. New visa rules? Rings a bell?

Does anyone know more than I do about it?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120917750942747113.html

April 28, 2008 @ 1:31 am | Comment

@ romeo: China Law Blog has an article on this question which could be useful.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:37 am | Comment

The true nature of China is being revealed through the CCP colonies masquerading themselves as “China towns” and “Chinese student associations”.

Nothing but ugly vileness.

And as for the lawsuit against CNN, when you subtract the enslaved peoples that China illegally occupies and Taiwan, the final population of China is certainly much less than 1.3 billion.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:11 am | Comment

@snow
@justrecently

I thought I had made myself very clear. Nobody in China thinks the current situation is ideal. I am very aware of myriad of problems that average Chinese citizens are facing. I know what’s happening to Hu Jia an others.

China is in flux right now. Current Chinese governance can only be best described as a transitory compromise, NOT the end goal. Only truism about China is that it’s changing rapidly.

When I mentioned that I will settle for a version of US, I am expressing hope for China’s future not describing the present conditions. I thought that had been obvious.

If Cathy’s goal is really trying to highlight deficiencies in Chinese system (deficiencies that we mainlanders are painfully aware), she is doing a poor ass job of winning Mainland Chinese to her cause.

As a HKer, someone who is arguably on the outside, you don’t endear yourself to your audience by first suggesting that they are mentally unprepared. That’s just common sense.

This is rather a common problem with many Western critic and activists who are quick to point fingers at China and Chinese without demonstrating that they empathize with the plights and aspirations of common Chinese man and woman on the streets.

If Cathy had been a fellow mainland Chinese, I might’ve cut her some slack and willing to engage her in a rational debate about democracy and pace of reform in China. Why? Because there is an implicit understanding that as mainland Chinese, we have shared experiences. But when foreigners or even HK Chinese starts to lecture me about China without first demonstrating understanding of the conditions in China, the Xenophobic Boxer in me will reflectively tell them to “Go fuck yourself”

To give you an example. I listened to Kevin Rudd’s speech at Peking University. He brought up the human rights problem in Tibet just as Clinton and Bush has make the same obligatory remark about HR in China. Yet Rudd’s speech carries more weight when he presents it as sincere advice coming from an old friend. His
delivery in Mandarin also made the message much more palatable to the Chinese students than those of Nancy Pelosi who seem to be more interested in grandstanding in front of Western audience. Rudd cleverly showed that he understand China and Chinese. Even his self-deprecating remark about his “bad” Chinese speaking skills are very Chinese.

Now this is a man who clearly demonstrated that he “gets” China and know how to get his point across.

It really just come to the art of persuasion. You want to show that you understand and empathize with your targeted audience. It will make a big difference on how your message will be appreciated.

I expect this point of subtlety will be fully lost on the likes of Cathy and many like minded Western critics of China.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:24 am | Comment

She did nothing wrong to begin with and the low-lives ( people who just can’t negotiate and not think about the consequences ) all label her when I bet most of them don’t do anything to begin with.

Her ability to negotiate for both is that of somebody who knows what is what but cannot join either.

About race. Yes it does affect chioce when the knowledge that is given to you and people that you negotiate with. Big people ( the parents ) is really big ( 30 something ) kids in there 40-60 year old bodies still dancing around like it is the 1960′s 1970′s.

Now after all these years no peace for the children just maddness of fear for the future while putting these childish actions on youths and continuing adults.

Why can’t we all just get them to stop nagging and telling us how we are, they are, and this that.

Where is the gate to the 20th century when you need it?

Still why is Tibet getting so much attention from Westerns?

China pushes around there own people ( over 5000 with tanks? ) and somehow “declares we are top dog in Asia watch out Japan” bit and yet after all this time why?

Money can’t be such a big deal? Is this the 1950′s all over again?

April 28, 2008 @ 3:24 am | Comment

I found Roland Soong’s translation of the May 4th 2008 issue of Yazzhou Zhoukan on the new entry of his excellent blog to reflect my own feelings over the whole affair:

In this wave of anti-western demonstrations, there were certain unpleasant reactions inside China. On one side, certain people are over-excited and they hand out terms such as “Chinese traitors” and “treason.” On the other side, certain other people are charging people with being “brain-dead” and “fenqing (=shitty young people).” On one side, those people are overly natoinalistic and react to everything as if this was the second coming of the Cultural Revolution. On the other side, those people have made it a habit to oppose the Communists at every turn so that they will applaud whenever foreigners debase China as if this was the second coming of anti-Communist fascism. Neither side care about any facts. Neither side care about what is right or wrong. Their chosen positions determine everything for them. Actually, these two sides are Siamese twins that cannot live without each other. One side is the polar opposite of the other side. For China to continue to develop, it must leave these two burdens behind. Modern China has suffered a lot and the biggest loss is rationality. The two types of people above have both been twisted first by their times, and then they are twisting themselves and others. People should not pay heed to these two types of people who represent two simplisitic polarized extremisms.

April 28, 2008 @ 4:00 am | Comment

@CMD
“…without demonstrating that they empathize with the plights and aspirations of common Chinese man and woman on the streets.”

Lot of products here, specially clothings and shoes, have the label “made in CH” but distributed through EU companies. Prices vary depending of the EU company shops, but in all case there is big difference between price of origin and price of the self here. EU companies in most cases ripe the greatest benefits while extolling rock bottom prices to the outsourced CH suppliers. That has direct impact upon wages and work conditions for CH suppliers workers.

I would not mind to buy directly from CH Brand, even pay the same price as from EU Brand. And if there is a verifiable commitment from CH Brand to improve working and wage conditions in CH for its workers would not mind to pay a greater price.

Some CH business here are doing just that. Opening shop under their own names. The design their shops in similar way as EU Brand, but bringing product directly from CH not through EU companies.
Quality and design is not very high but OK. Prices are rock bottom as usual, but I considerer that strategy erroneous.

The should try to create their own brands, improve a bit design and quality. That would allow them to be able to demand higher prices, increasing with it their profit margin.
But problem for a 100% CH brand would be the bad perception of CH here, which limits the the chances of creating a good brand name.

If CH could take the appropriate measures to improve how it is perceived in the EU, it could benefit directly CH companies and make it easier to gain share in EU consumer market not only through low prices (and low quality).

Improving HR conditions, political situation, and handling of internal crisis like TB, together with a effective PR program could do much to improve position of CH companies in local market here, and profit margins and working/wage conditions in CH

April 28, 2008 @ 4:15 am | Comment

The same applies to higher end product: computers, cars, home electronics, luxury apparel.

Besides, greater profit margins could allow CH brand to improve product quality, providing a different feeling to local consumers from low quality imported CH products through EU companies.

April 28, 2008 @ 4:32 am | Comment

@cathy,

I think it’s shameful that you have no idea that there are numerous Chinese who denounce the threat of violence against Grace Wang and her family.

I came on this thread to post this excellent reaction to Grace Wang’s blog post.

http://blog.creaders.net//Icerain/user_blog_diary.php?did=20530

April 28, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

@ecodelta

I agree with you that American and European retailers are the ones that reaps the greatest benefits in the China trade.

Much of the outsourcing to China, at least in its initial stages are about global labor arbitrage. Wage are low in China due to the abundance of labor.

During the Cold war, much of the labor pool of China, India and Russia is not available to produce goods and services consumable by the West.

By China, India and Russia participating in the gobal market place, 2 billion people have just been added to the labor supply.

It’s inevitable part of the globalization of free market system that wages will have to equalize among all trading nations. Either Western wages will fall or Eastern wages has to rise until a happy equilibrium is reached.

It makes no sense that an Indonesian lumberjack should be paid significantly less than his Japanese or American counterparts if the productivity level is comparable and the end product is a fungible and globally traded commodity.

The increasing shift of global production to China has already cause the wage to rise. It’s simply a matter of supply and demand. Wages and working conditions for average Chinese worker will continue to rise as competition for workers heat up.

Why do you suppose hundreds of millions of Chinese men and women migrate from countryside to cities looking for work. I daresay they are finding better opportunities even among the factories whose working conditions are considered appalling by European standards.

Again, I agree with you that competing on price is a losing proposition long term. Focus on brand building, R & D and improving quality will go long way to foster successful Chinese businesses. I believe that in this regard, China is following the development model trailblazed first by Japanese and more recently leveraged by South Koreans.

It’s ancient history now but once upon a time “Made in Japan” was also associated with shoddy products.

Agreeing also about PR. But the fundamental bias that Western media and by extension Western public has against China is ideological. Without China fundamentally changing its political system to something that the West finds palatable, any PR work will merely be window dressing.

April 28, 2008 @ 5:44 am | Comment

@CMD
“Without China fundamentally changing its political system to something that the West finds palatable, any PR work will merely be window dressing.”

Not necessarily. The concept of a benevolent illustrated despotism is also appealing, even in the West.

CH could play that card too. Actually, I think that that was the IOC perception when they concede the OG to Beijing.

But several of the actions from CH, as perceived in the west, breaks that option.

Why is that so? Hard to say. I think is a mixture of lack of self confidence, self imposed limits in strategic decisions due to internal political issues and power structures; and lack of knowledge of the west and inexperience how to handle foreign relationships by CH side.
On our side: biased perception of CH because our image of CH in our mind is still anchored in its recent past (country changes too fast) and inability of CH PR efforts (if any) to break it.

April 28, 2008 @ 6:00 am | Comment

Why is that so? Hard to say. I think is a mixture of lack of self confidence, self imposed limits in strategic decisions due to internal political issues and power structures; and lack of knowledge of the west and inexperience how to handle foreign relationships by CH side.

Are you saying that there is some media campaign that somehow offset or cover up Tibet, the authoritarian state, the camps, etc? The West did that before, with Nazi Germany in the 1930s, about which there was much admiring prose in the international media, and of course, the constructions of “Free China” and “democratic” Korea and Vietnam during the Cold War. But that can’t happen again — there are too many independent voices and too many channels for the establishment media to control the presentation.

Michael

April 28, 2008 @ 7:57 am | Comment

To those that LOVE to compare to China to Nazi Germany:

Please learn your European history.

If you insist on compare China to Germany, a prickly, fast rising, pre-World War I authoritarian Germany determined to has its place in the sun, would have been a much more apt choice.

Also remember what happened when the status quo super-power Great Britain have failed to accommodate the rising German power.

Do you really want to replaythis?

But if you insist on demonstrating your ignorance, go ahead, it’s certainly your right to do so.

April 28, 2008 @ 9:00 am | Comment

Oh, the irony! Apparently even Tibetan Independence supporters have outsourced production of Snow-Lion flag to China:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200804c.brief.htm#015

April 28, 2008 @ 9:29 am | Comment

Back to Tibet and Olympics:

OH Shit! I’ve should’ve known I can always count on my man Guan Yu Guan Yun Chang for crowd control during torch relay!

http://shao.pengguo.com/?p=199

Peng Guo is now officially my favorite Canadian Chinese!

April 28, 2008 @ 9:35 am | Comment

@CMD

If you insist on compare China to Germany, a prickly, fast rising, pre-World War I authoritarian Germany determined to has its place in the sun, would have been a much more apt choice.

Well, that was not a foregone conclusion. Bismarck was well-aware of the fact that it was not a wise policy to challenge the UK, so after unifying Germany in 1871, he made sure that Germany worked within the existing order. All that changed when William II took charge of foreign policy by getting rid of Bismarck, and started to build a navy.

Also remember what happened when the status quo super-power Great Britain have failed to accommodate the rising German power.

…and we should not lose sight of what price Germany had to pay for starting to world wars.

April 28, 2008 @ 11:57 am | Comment

28, 2008 07:57 AM

To those that LOVE to compare to China to Nazi Germany:

Please learn your European history.

Two points:

(1) I’ve forgotten more about European history than you’ll ever learn.

(2) I was not comparing China to Nazi Germany but actual western media responses in covering up unethical political behavior to a hypothetical situation in which China attempts to do the same. I think Beijing has been remarkably successful already in gathering the Establishment media to its side, but the point is that the media sources today are too widespread and too variegated for China to use the western media the way the Nazis did or the Western powers in the Cold War did to give false impressions of their behavior.

Michael

April 28, 2008 @ 12:57 pm | Comment

@Amban
Well, that was not a foregone conclusion. Bismarck …made sure that Germany worked within the existing order…

Arguably, China is also trying to work within the existing order. Example such as joining WTO and …hosting OLYMPICS.

It’s indeed not a forgone conclusion that China must necessarily clash with United States.

and we should not lose sight of what price Germany had to pay for starting to world wars.

True. At the same time take a good look at the crowd of fengqing boycotting Carrefour and realize that if indeed we end up slaughtering each other whole sale like we do in the good ole days, we have much more willing cannon fodders to trade against yours.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:04 pm | Comment

@Michael Turton

(1) I’ve forgotten more about European history than you’ll ever learn.

(2) I was not comparing China to Nazi Germany ….for China to use the western media the way the Nazis did ….

I have nothing to say except that your sheer brilliance have always manage to astound me.

Cheers.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

@ecodelta

Agree with pretty much everything except the following:

Not necessarily. The concept of a benevolent illustrated despotism is also appealing, even in the West

I suppose people who read Plato and willing to accept rules by philosopher kings might. But in today’s post-modern West where sound bytes pass for political positions I doubt that the majority have read or understood “The Repbulic”. And then there are those like Michael Turton who have forgotten more about the Greeks than I could ever hope to learn.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:18 pm | Comment

@CMD

we have much more willing cannon fodders to trade against yours.

I’m not sure what “we” and “you” are referring to and I’m loath to speculate about the prospects of a war between China and any major world power. Suffice it to say that sheer numbers of population not always the most important factor in deciding the outcome of wars. It’s not enough to just have lots of people, in order to make them into soldiers, you have provide for them, mobilize them and resolve complicated logistical issues. If China would find itself in full-scale war with any coalition of powers it would be a catastrophe for China and the Chinese people, and the Chinese government knows it. A limited conflict with Taiwan would have disastrous consequences for China, even if it would not entail a confrontation with the US or Japan.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:19 pm | Comment

Well I just hope that you didnt make that cathy person feel bad er whatever. It is hard to be idelaistic in this jaded environment…

Also you said that you need people to talk to you in a certain appealing way or you wont want to listen. Thats all fine and normal… But… when it comes to communists or people who are supportive of a criminal regime, if you wanna talk to them about human rights and liberties, dignity for the innocent people, things like that… Do you really think it is normal for the accused to be so picky about how people are speaking to them?

Yeahl, you said that there are problems in China, seems liek lots of people know it and are pretty liberal (whatever that means…) but you also say stuff that is reminiscent of the commy argument that the CCP is needed for this and that for 20 to a hundred more years and all that jazz. So for some people, those sorts of excuses for communist regime crimes are really not cool. I donno your position exactly of course, but, I find it hard to sympathize with the idea that a lot of Chinese support human rights because I dont see them doing anything, or daring to say anything, all you do is quietly say, “yeah but” followed by some excuse. Anyway, you can have as many excuses as you want, but a “yeah but” does not help a darn person who is suffering under torturous cruelty of that regime .

April 28, 2008 @ 1:30 pm | Comment

@snow

At this point, all I can say to you is please refer to my above post about Roland Soong’s translation of of the May 4th 2008 issue of Yazzhou Zhoukan. That pretty much summed up how I feel about your position.

April 28, 2008 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

The Beijing Olympics—It’s all about RESPECT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2IVF9a2IA&NR=1

April 28, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

Snow,

give it up, begging Chinese people to fight for democracy in China is a lost cause right now. Just go along with the program, we Chinese don’t want democracy until we want them, and sometimes we don’t want them just to show you that we don’t need to hear your santicmonius bullshit. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the new Democracy. Western democracy is so 20th century.

Cao, you said,
“Arguably, China is also trying to work within the existing order. Example such as joining WTO and …hosting OLYMPICS.”

I agree, but China needs not and can’t play by all the rules if they were to get ahead in a global geopolitical and economic system set by the West. China needs to abide by some, flout some, and re-write some of these rules of international political and economic engagements, if it were to get ahead and demonstrate its powers to the world. you can’t expect to run on the same track behind someone if you were to catch up and surpass someone ahead of you.

April 28, 2008 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

@CMD
“… and realize that if indeed we end up slaughtering each other whole sale like we do in the good ole days, we have much more willing cannon fodders to trade against yours.”

The west has right now a lot more of firepower to compensate for that. Tactics based on human wave attacks without regards to casualties may work against a technically/tactical more advanced but much less numerous military force. Specially on your own territory where you may count also with strong civil population local support.
That might work, like was the case of the German army against Russian in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, even in CH against JP invasion.

But in case of a total war, without restrictions on use of firepower, it may be disastrous against a enemy with a stronger strategic and technological position. Specially if the fight is taken abroad.
IMHO that was the case of JP against US in pacific war. Not even massive kamikaze style attacks on ground, sea and air could do much to stop US war machine.

CH strategic position is somewhat similar to the central powers before WWI. Landlocked, sandwiched among opposing powers wary of major change of status quo, mismatch between available resources population and strategic ambitions. Presences of an outer power unassailable to then once in entered into the fray. More direct access of west powers to world resources. Better strategic position and resources to blockade mainland CH. The west would not need to conquer CH just neutralize it.
Without access to world resources plus war disruptions living condition in CH, with is mismatch population/resources would go back to barely subsistence levels.

No. I do not think a direct confrontation with the US would be a good idea. Less of all in classical old way… The way to greater power for CH must be quite different, if any. Somewhat similar to Bismarck strategy, pushing forward the limits without antagonizing too much existing major powers. Hope you do not fire to soon such a politician and get a Wilhem II in exchange.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:00 pm | Comment

ecodelta,

In your analysis, you’re assuming that the rest of the world will just be observers in this confrontation between China and the West. I don’t htink the West can carry out the strategy you’ve stated uninterrupted by other forces or influences, as well as not to expect China’s treaty alliances come to the it’s aid.

The West might not be quite united as you might think in this confrontation. But I do agreee with you, it’s not wise for China to confront the US, even if it’s non-militarily. China needs to brush up on its financial and econcomic war skills before it can challenge the US. The US’s achilles heel is its financial system. you disrupt and damage that, then you can unleash the hell within its borders.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:09 pm | Comment

@MFK

I am with Bro. Indeed China has already rewritten and continue to rewrite rules of international engagement. The west had to start to mint terms like “Beijing Consensus” in order to describe the phenomenon. Not a few multi-nationals already had to play by Chinese rules. Soon more will follow.

The rule of Power never change.
Time and Tide is on our side.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:10 pm | Comment

@Michael Turton
“Are you saying that there is some media campaign
that somehow offset or cover up Tibet, the authoritarian state, the camps, etc?”

I am not saying that. What I was trying to say is that CH is not able to through a better light on the more positive side of it current economic development. Even the crackdown in TB, by former CH levels, was milder in comparison.

I am not proposing a campaign to hide the horror of an authoritarian regime like what happened with the “final solution” in Nazi Germany or to build Potemkin villages. Rather a better media policy with west to be able to present on one side the positive improvements in CH and better justify (if possible) the negative side.

The task lies more on CH side than on west side.
The clumsy way CH handle some critical issues and the resulting reaction from the west provoke a strong counter reaction in CH limiting their strategic choices just to safe face or look strong against its population.

I find it almost funny. They manage more than once to literally paint themselves into a corner, all by themselves without need of west help.

April 28, 2008 @ 3:17 pm | Comment

@MFK
“I don’t htink the West can carry out the strategy you’ve stated uninterrupted by other forces or influences, as well as not to expect China’s treaty alliances come to the it’s aid.”
The closest and more effective alliances would be the countries in you direct vicinity. But they will not be interested a big success of CH in that fight, it would change too much the status quo for their liking.
Better a big power that is far away than one right at your door step.
They main refrain a major defeat of CH or lost of face for same reasons though.
The situation reminds me of pre WWI situation in Europe. Continuous attempts to shuffle status quo in power equilibrium in Europe by major continental power, with England play one card of the other to avoid decisive rising of one of them, with more than willing help from the other ones.

Just Change England by US in this case.

“The West might not be quite united as you might think in this confrontation.”
Nothing better than a perceived alien and external enemy to unite any warring factions on ones side…

“The US’s achilles heel is its financial system. you disrupt and damage that, then you can unleash the hell within its borders.”
Do not forget they have the “printing machine”. They can print as many dollars as they want, and the country has inherent assets, natural resources and advance technology that will not be affected and also will limit any collapse of the dollar.
We are living now a paradox in EU. EU companies are complaining about a strong Euro, but the US finds itself quite happy with a weak dollar.
Funny, the main argument against EU introduction was the fear it was going to be a “weak” currency.

By the way CH has a mountain of $$. What would be be of that cash if its value goes catastrophically down?

Even in a financial confrontation, CH is more than likely to be on the loosing side, not matter how much damages they could provoke.
Besides, to who else are you going to sell your production overcapacity? ;-)

April 28, 2008 @ 3:41 pm | Comment

“to who else are you going to sell your production overcapacity? ;-)

Ourselves

and resource rich countries like the oil state, Russia and Brazil, as well as countries in Africa in return for their natural resources.

It’s time to change the consumption patterns to a more sustainable state. We will consume more and you will consume less.

April 28, 2008 @ 11:37 pm | Comment

Hope you do not fire to soon such a politician and get a Wilhem II in exchange.

Don’t worry. China has learned the lesson of Germany. We will let US ruin its own empire unaided, it’s doing a fantastic job so far.

True, present balance of power is not in our favor completely,not yet. Give it 40-50 year for the current power position vs US to reverse itself. I will still be alive then. Good times.

April 28, 2008 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

@CDM
In 40-50 year the population pyramid in CH will be so inverted that its grandsons will be too busy taking care of their old grandmas, grandpas, greataunts and greatuncles, etc. 1 to 6/8 ratio maybe?

Grandpa: “We must conquer the world, is CH destinity”
Grandson:”Yes, yes grandpa. Now take your medicine, your getting too excited again”

Another 40-50 year more at the least to fix that problem too, at the very least. ;-)

April 29, 2008 @ 12:36 am | Comment

@Ecodelta
Why would western countries reimburse china for what has happened in the last few centuries? Didn�t china invade Russia and Eastern Europe first after all everyone knows that Mongolians are Chinese right�

Seriously though regarding the comments from Dr Sun on how Manchu, Tibetan, Han, Mongolian, etc were all Chinese, I believe this was made after the republic of China was formed in 1911� This differs a bit from what he said before the Republic was formed when I believe it was stated by him that they were an outside invader. Seems like he decided afterwards to change his mind on that one when he realized all the land he would lose� Some things don’t change.

Regarding the attack on Grace and also Jin Jiang by Chinese FenQing I can only shake my head in disgust at their behaviour. Luckily many Chinese don’t think the same way as they do otherwise I would hate to imagine what could happen. Most Chinese I have spoken with here have been quite simply amazed about these attacks.

April 29, 2008 @ 12:52 am | Comment

Cao Meng,

Thanks, I will take your suggestion to read that stuff…

MFK… Classic CCP tactic, you twist my comments to demean me. I know that commies have a certain line on democracy. And I know that if someone actually talks of stuff that doesnt fall into a line, they make it so that they can be against it.

It’s like when Dalai Lama talks about autonomy and all commies do is spit and spew “evil anti China SPLITIST”

Thats how I think when you tell me that you dont think Chinese want democracy. When do I ever say China should have democracy? I never said that. I just think that the CCP will do anything against innocent people just to preserve its own spoiled life. It is corrupt as Hell and kills and tortures people only for thought crimes consisting of faith and belief in basic rights…

So I just think its more about some kind of justice or integrity than any kind of political structure. Actually I have no problem with “socialism with Chinese characteristics” (I dont care what format you all want to use to run China) its about how to treat Chinese people with dignity, dont lie to them and threaten them with torture, dont crush them and step all over their innocent ideals in order to pursue some commy religion of death.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:10 am | Comment

@ Cao Meng,

my goal is to try to “understand” – to some degree. To be foreign should be no licence to offend people. But to persuade people is one thing, and to manipulate people is another – it is sometimes a pretty fine line between the two. I don’t think of how my position might come across every time I speak, and I think it would be unpractical if I did.

I can understand that some reactions from the West bring the boxer out in you. But some reactions from China also bring out the liberal in me. It is my choice if I want to start ranting because of that, or if I still want to listen to gain information. I think both are legitimate choices, but the latter is smarter. Even emotional posts can be information, as long as I don’t feel overexposed to it.

Yes, I can understand that Chinese people currently react in a defensive way, and that they feel threatened at times. But to understand is no obligation to condone every position. To understand the Han position (it comes across as pretty united to me) isn’t to condone the Chinese government’s policy on the Tibetans, and the vocal support for it by much of the Chinese public. Neither you nor I need to listen to each other, or to Cathy. But it could be useful. This world is still too big to make us all go through exactly the same experience (which I think that’s good). But at the same time, it has become to small to keep our minds and opinions seperate from one another. They are bound to clash from time to time, and we should make the best of it.

April 29, 2008 @ 1:16 am | Comment

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