Thread

I won’t be posting much this week.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 96 Comments

I repost this from another thread because I genuinely like to hear what others have to say.

http://tinyurl.com/39qk4h

Not sure if anybody follows this story. It’s been a headline-type of news in China for a while. This young couple from Zhejiang went to Paris and shopped at Lafayette. They paid with cash. The cashier suspected the notes were fake, and called in security and police. They were detained for 11 hours (in quite possibly their honeymoon) and searched “insultingly”.

Paris is new to greet the newly rich from China. On the other hand, high-end stores in Hong Kong, Tokyo or Seoul have known this type of shoppers well — soon Taipei too, which likely will give the Taiwanese economy a kick after Ma was elected.

March 26, 2008 @ 8:59 am | Comment

The cashier was clearly an asshole, but why making this into a diplomatic incident? I don’t know how many times have been cheated and treated rudely when shopping in China, but it would never cross my mind to call the embassy.

March 26, 2008 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

This article in Forbes is light on facts, but an interesting take on the issue. Lafayette did just get in a JV to get into the mainland.

http://tinyurl.com/yq8mdp

March 26, 2008 @ 12:38 pm | Comment

“It’s been a headline-type of news in China for a while.”

Even the slightest perception of foreign disrespect, illusory or otherwise, has always been pounced on by the Chinese media to whip up anti – ‘name your own country’ feeling.

Your energy would be better spent trying to educate Beijingers to treat foreign visitors with respect in August. Good luck with that one!

More importantly, the BBC has been ‘unblocked’ in China. Enjoy it while you can.

March 26, 2008 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

It seems that the customers were received service (and accused of using fake notes) twice. I can see how that would make you annoyed enough to go to the embassy. While I’ve been treated rudely in Chinese shops in my time, I’ve never actually been investigated by the police…so yeah I can see making it a diplomatic incident.

If this kind of incident becomes common throughout Europe, then I think you could certainly start worrying about racism. I think, however, that the economic strength of Chinese tourists is foing to keep this kind of situation to a minimum (see the final sentence of the China Daily article).

On a tangentially related note:
I set my MBA students the following task, “What protections does Chinese law offer to consumers? How can consumers ensure they are not cheated by vendors?”
I was hoping they’d talk about things like safety standards, internationally-recognised certificates, maybe some high-profile cases that have made it to the courts (the poisonous baby-milk scandal would be one example).
But no, my cynical students decided that a) Chinese law offers very little protection for consumers and b) every consumer in China will be cheated, the only way to ensure you don’t get cheated twice is by learning through experience.

March 26, 2008 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

Dish, they were detained for hours, and searched by the police, while on their honeymoon. Pretty annoying, I’ll say. Your story of your MBA students’ reaction is fascinating. As someone who has a right-leaning worldview, I tend to think market force is better than government regulations in combating consumer frauds. Hence I love the concept of dianping.com (a Chinese Zagat with different twists). However, dianping.com has been sued by some restaurants for negative reviews. There are legal codes in China to punish consumer frauds, but often the compensatory damage is too small and the court order is too difficult to enforce, to worth the trouble.

Amban, we have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a very good reason.

Stuart, huh? Dude, you’ve got an issue.

March 26, 2008 @ 1:20 pm | Comment

@Dish

If this kind of incident becomes common throughout Europe, then I think you could certainly start worrying about racism.

Well, what the incident really shows is that the system works in France. If you get wrongfully arrested there are legal remedies and French companies actually worry about their reputation, so they apologize.

It would be nice if I could do the same every time I get cheated in China. By the way, has the Beijing police officially apologized to the African men who were arrested in a drug bust last fall?

March 26, 2008 @ 1:26 pm | Comment

@JXie

Amban, we have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a very good reason.

Yeah, but don’t use your mouth in China if you hear things you don’t like. It’s not going to make a difference. If you feel discriminated in China, it is next impossible to make that argument. So why do you expect more when you are abroad?

March 26, 2008 @ 1:31 pm | Comment

If only people could get equally worked up about the much greater injustices visited upon their fellow citizens within their own country.

March 26, 2008 @ 1:45 pm | Comment

agree with Kevin. If you just look at this in terms of the ‘Chinese (CCP) media’ you gotta really question it, and everything you hear.

Someone said the other day that the Chinese really pride themselves in being able to understand the propaganda from truth, well, I just cant see how that is possible.

This couple may have had this happen to them, but why is it a big issue in the media in China? There is a reason, anything big in the media in China is cause the CCP wants it that way.

I do not know how people in China, especially people who have some intellectual leaning, could possibly tolerate this kind of trashy media deal. How can you even reference the Chinese media without including the fact that it is all a bunch of propaganda? They dont let any free voice in the media. Change that, do something about that, fix that or the Chinese people will always be considered brainwashed and always will be brainwashed unless you people insist on not having your media contolled by athoritarian dictatorship.

March 26, 2008 @ 2:00 pm | Comment

Let’s all have a laugh: http://sinocidal.com/2008/01/15/the-gabbles-of-marco-polo-part-iii/#comments.

March 26, 2008 @ 2:51 pm | Comment

Snow,
Propoganda, media censorship and bias…well, obviously it’s a complex issue in China as it is elsewhere in the world.

Most educated adults here will not only have a healthy scepticism about news stories presented by the ministry of propaganda, but will also joke about this.

However, they are much less willing to face up to unacknowledged biases in their media. Such as we’ve been talking about above:
- Chinese people being treated badly by French shop = serious news.
- African expats being arrested in Beijing purely because of the colour of their skin = completely ignored.

It all fits in with my ‘how the CCP uses ultra-nationalism to control the young, educated, urban residents’ theory. Encouraging these people to focus on and criticise issues within China is dangerous and threatening to the CCP. Encouraging those same people to focus on and criticise issues happening abroad…well that’s exactly the kind of distraction the CCP is constantly looking for.

The main question (for me) is how and why do the educated urbanites allow themselves to be manipulated in this way. Again this is a complex question. It could be argued that when living in an authoritarian state it is often best to allow oneself to be so manipulated. It could also be argued … well, I’m going to quote my husband here. He’s trying to explain to me why his peers, classmates, friends and colleagues manage to fall completely hook, line and sinker for the ultra-nationalist propaganda. He says, “I think, on some level they are perfectly aware of how they’re being manipulated. They are capable of logical thought, and any logical examination of the issues will immediately throw up serious flaws. They’re also perfectly aware of the fact that the media lies to them – they’ve had plentiful examples of that within the domestic arena.
So why don’t they give up on the ultra-nationalism? Why doesn’t (a friend of ours) give up on his ultra-anti-Japanese stance?
The only reason can be that they have invested too heavily and for too long in these opinions and positions. Accepting how badly they’ve been manipulated here, and for how long the government has managed to do it…it’s just far too threatening.”

What’s the point of wrecking your entire world-view just to remind yourself that your government lies to you and manipulates you? Especially if you don’t intend to challenge that government (and if you want to stay out of prison, then it’s probably best if you don’t challenge that government).

March 26, 2008 @ 3:15 pm | Comment

These guys are just lucky that they did not run afoul of the Beijing authorities; if so, their time in detention would have been “gloriously” and “correctly” extended indefinitely, with no one to ever hear about their plight.
Speaking of brainwashing, I wanted to bring it to everyone’s attention that a “small contingent” of overseas Chinese students have, in the aftermath of “biased Western reporting on Tibet,” founded a website, anti-cnn.com, dedicated to revealing the “truth” about Tibet and fighting the “leader of lies” (CNN), thereby hitting a new low in either gullibility or whore-dom. It’s good for a few laughs, if you’re interested… and don’t worry overseas students, while a website criticizing the Chinese media would obviously be blocked immediately, anti-cnn.com is still accessible from the US! I bet that the government just hasn’t found out about it yet…. right?

March 26, 2008 @ 3:18 pm | Comment

@Jxie et all

Well. I do not know if this was major news in China.

Not long ago. Nor far from my home the following incident with a Chinese woman was reported in the local newspaper.

This Chinese woman was walking on the street when suddenly she felt indisposed. She was pregnant, and her baby suddenly decided it was time to know the world.

She is one of the many Chinese migrants who have come to live and work here. Have quite a bit of them everywhere. She spoke no word of the local language. The local people who tried to help her could only understood the word “telephone” “telephone”.

The people nearby noticed which was the problem, the owner of a car dealer nearby took her inside his own business offices to try to attend her the best he could.

His son was also there, but he could not stand the view… had to go outside. A emergency ambulance was called. A lot of curious, congregated themselves outside. The birth was going not very well, and the baby did not want to wait for the ambulance.

Suddenly a nurse woman who was passing by appeared, and together with the car dealer owner they were able to bring the baby delivery to a happy end.

When news arrived to the people congregated outside everybody applauded.
Finally the ambulance arrived, little late as usual, and the woman and her new son were taken to the hospital. In the hospital they finally managed to locate her husband. I think he was not expecting a kid so soon.

Here medical help is free specially in emergencies, even for migrants, and even without legal documents.

What I want to say? Be positive men! There may be more racism in your eyes than in the reality.

March 26, 2008 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

kevin,

I just glanced over the anti-cnn site. Frankly, much of it is pretty spot on, don’t you think? I mean, I don’t want to start talking about the tobet situation again, but I think the site there has a pretty good point. Especially regarding the protests in Nepal being portrayed as being CHinese. Other than that, yeah, it’s a kinda funny site.

March 26, 2008 @ 4:37 pm | Comment

LaughingMahn,

Now I’m trying to explain to my husband why,
“Is it because we is Italian?” can make me laugh.

March 26, 2008 @ 8:16 pm | Comment

Oh no, ecodelta. It hardly bothers me at a personal level — but it does bother some of my richer Chinese friends whose typical oversea trips include some crazy shopping sprees — being suckers in my mind.

I mostly just want to listen to what others have to say, believe or not. It interests me how the topic quickly turns.

March 26, 2008 @ 9:30 pm | Comment

@amban

“It would be nice if I could do the same every time I get cheated in China. By the way, has the Beijing police officially apologized to the African men who were arrested in a drug bust last fall?”

i agree with yr point, but as i recall there were more than a few african drug dealers hanging round sanlitun when i was there a couple of years ago. indeed there were so many an african lady was moved to write a letter to that’s beijing asking her “african brothers” to stop….

@kevin

“If only people could get equally worked up about the much greater injustices visited upon their fellow citizens within their own country.”

well said. and anyway, don’t they know how appalling rude parisians are?

March 26, 2008 @ 9:53 pm | Comment

overseas Chinese students have, in the aftermath of “biased Western reporting on Tibet,” founded a website, anti-cnn.com

Here is a report from WSJ
Since March 21, Beijing Internet entrepreneur Rao Jin has been operating the Web site anti-cnn.com to document what he sees as inaccurate foreign coverage of the recent unrest in Tibet.

March 26, 2008 @ 10:18 pm | Comment

@jxie et al

I also doubt very much that the French cashier had any idea of the nationality.

Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thailand, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Singaporean? They all look the same to us ;-) Even when they speak ;-) )

Need some practice to identify the differences.

I myself mistook once Korean students with Japanese.

March 26, 2008 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

About been cheated. Never been in China

I has been for several times in Vietnam and never felt cheated, even when I made major mistakes when paying.

Well, I knew I was getting the “dumb foreign tourist” price in the markets or at the local bus. Even when I went with VN friends they told me I was getting the “friendly foreign tourist” price

But prices were so low that I did not have any wish to ague, though it is consider a good sport there.

But VN people learn fast, now they ask for same price in Euros instead of in Dollars…. Specially with Europeans

March 26, 2008 @ 10:49 pm | Comment

Si,

> i agree with yr point, but as i recall there were
> more than a few african drug dealers hanging
> round sanlitun when i was there a couple of years
> ago. indeed there were so many an african lady
> was moved to write a letter to that’s beijing
> asking her “african brothers” to stop….

Can you tell what’s wrong with this argument?
“Some Chinese people have been found using counterfeit money. Therefore it is ok for us to arrest all the Chinese people based on no more evidence than the colour of their skin. That’ll stop the counterfeiters.”

Maybe this could be racist? Using the over-application of stereotypes? Discrimination? Something to be avoided?

Can you tell me the difference between the above sentence and the following one:

“Some Africans have been found to be drug dealers. Therefore it is ok for us to arrest all the Africans based on no more evidence than the colour of their skin. That’ll stop the drug dealing.”

March 26, 2008 @ 10:59 pm | Comment

How to stop the Western media from lying about T*bet in ONE easy step!

Step One:
Let the Western media into T*bet.

March 26, 2008 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

“Stuart, huh? Dude, you’ve got an issue.”

I really haven’t, dude. The point is, this should never have been an ISSUE (other than for the couple themselves) in the first place.

Do you see?

March 26, 2008 @ 11:45 pm | Comment

“arrest all Chinese people”

Really? Who’s doing that?

The sad fact that China is getting a world-wide reputation for cheating couldn’t possibly have anything to do with shoppers in Paris, now, could it?

March 26, 2008 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

Sam_S ^,
Nobody’s doing that. It was an illustration to try to explain why the progression from:
a) some Africans are drug dealers
to
b) therefore we can arrest any black male we want to because they’re probably a drug dealer,
is both fatally flawed and hideously racist.

(This is the logical process which appears to be subscribed to by both commentator ‘Si’ and the Beijing police.)

March 27, 2008 @ 12:30 am | Comment

Step One:
Let the Western media into T*bet.

It is happening right now.

March 27, 2008 @ 1:09 am | Comment

It is happening right now.

Which is why the foreign media need to be let in now. And they are not allowed in – they have been kicked out.

March 27, 2008 @ 1:10 am | Comment

some of them are being given a tour and interviews with tibetans, who will talk at length about how terrible they are

the bbc is not invited, for one

March 27, 2008 @ 1:46 am | Comment

@dish

maybe it was an off hand comment i didn’t think through. my point was that we shouldn’t assume that the africans were arrested solely on the colour of their skin given the very visible and large numbers of drug dealing africans in beijing. perhaps you could give me a link to the full details.

March 27, 2008 @ 1:50 am | Comment

It’s time to have another laugh:

http://user.wangjianshuo.com/34768

March 27, 2008 @ 1:53 am | Comment

“”"”"It all fits in with my ‘how the CCP uses ultra-nationalism to control the young, educated, urban residents’ theory. Encouraging these people to focus on and criticise issues within China is dangerous and threatening to the CCP. Encouraging those same people to focus on and criticise issues happening abroad…well that’s exactly the kind of distraction the CCP is constantly looking for.”"”"”"”

Dish, good thinking eh,

I thought it was most interesting for you to bring up WHY these people do not insist on hearing truth…. How can they manage and accept themselves knowing that what they think and speak is implanted by an agenda???

Yeah, it’s not only China which has this phenomena… But China is the most extrme example with only one source of info, the true stuff, totally put aside!!

March 27, 2008 @ 3:43 am | Comment

I think it has a lot to do with them believing that the agenda is good and that the CCP is tricking them into building a nice country or something…

Truly a masterpeice of evil !!

March 27, 2008 @ 3:45 am | Comment

How does the CCP make people think that doing all sorts of terrible stuff like supressing info and lying etc etc…???

I think the way they do it, it they totally mess up what it means to be a good country and change around good and bad and have people thinking that all sorts of cracked up situations are good for the country and stuff

MESSED UP…

Yeah, I dont have time to get into the details, I hope most people know what i’m talking about, but I realize it might not be clear…

It’s a theory, lemme know what you think (-:

Happy late Easter (-:

March 27, 2008 @ 3:54 am | Comment

The CCP have no interest in serving the needs and wishes of the T1betan people, but they do require a strategy designed to convince Han Chinese that their role in the region has been to improve the lives of a backward culture. To this end, they have been very successful.

I’ve discussed this issue many times with Chinese students and teachers in recent days and it’s really alarming, but not entirely surprising, how effective all the propaganda has been in shaping the attitudes of Han Chinese.

Three things seem to create a particular surge in the hard-wired neurology of the Han brain:

1. The CCTV coverage showing the charred or bloodied remains of Han victims of the recent violence.

2. The perceived ingratitude of a people for whom they believe the CCP (and, more specifically, Han Chinese) have worked tirelessly to help out of backbreaking serfdom.

3. The high regard in which the DL is held by just about every other country on the planet, which is considered, with laughable irony, to be the product of a biased ‘anti-Chinese’ western media.

Most shocking of all has been the widespread opinion (fostered by items 1. & 2.) that the T1betan people should be punished severely.

Sadly, on this last point, I suspect they will get their wish.

March 27, 2008 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

I’ve been treated rudely in 15 countries in Asia, and never once would I have even thought of going to my embassy to register a complaint.

After all, it wasn’t the embassy that treated me rudely, was it?

.

March 27, 2008 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

Eyewitnesses Recount Terrifying Day in Tibet

this sounds a more reliable sources on tibet

March 27, 2008 @ 5:09 pm | Comment

i know that chinese government did not allow media to go to tibet in the first place,its bad and stupid. but why BBC reporters in china are lazy, not like the writer from washingtonpost to do some extra work and research to write out the first hand information, these lazy CNN and BBC reporters, they are obviously have very strong personal vew in politic, which i understand that is the passion for them to be a journalist. but that is not good for people to solve problem, it only makes the situation worse.

and for some people here, stop assuming if you were not there and stop judging chinese brainwashed, if you really speak chinese, talk to average chinese people in china, most of them are not satisfied with commuinst government at all

the white house officer confirmed in FT report, chinese government did not really use forces in this riot, i hope this time CIA did not give white house wrong information

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ddd5e7aa-fb62-11dc-8c3e-000077b07658.html

Bush calls on China to talk with Dalai Lama
By Demetri Sevastopulo and Daniel Dombey in Washington

Published: March 26 2008 20:00 | Last updated: March 26 2008 20:00

President George W. Bush on Wednesday urged Hu Jintao, the Chinese president, to reopen dialogue with the Dalai Lama towards finding a peaceful solution to the growing unrest in Tibet.

In a phone call with the Chinese leader, Mr Bush called on China to engage the Dalai Lama, by pointing out that the exiled Tibetan leader had threatened to resign if the violence continues.

Some European countries, including France and Germany, on Wednesday renewed calls for China to talk to the Dalai Lama.
But they have gone one step further than the US in hinting that they might boycott the opening of the Olympic Games in Beijing in August. A senior Bush administration official said Mr Bush was not contemplating avoiding the games, pointing out that the Dalai Lama himself had not called for such a move.

The official said European calls to boycott the opening ceremony while supporting their athletes’ efforts to win medals were “childish”. He added that calls for a boycott over the situation in Tibet were “emotional” rather than “logical”, saying the US preferred to engage Beijing.

The official added that while the situation in Tibet was very serious, the Chinese had shown restraint. He said there was none of the “head-cracking” that occurred when the Chinese government violently cracked down on the protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

Mr Bush’s administration finds itself in an awkward position in the wake of public international concern about China’s actions in Tibet. The president has made much of his sympathy for the Dalai Lama and his cause, taking part late last year in a very public Washington welcome for the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader that involved a presentation ceremony in the Congress and a high-profile visit to the White House.

But the President’s seemingly instinctive support for the Dalai Lama, whom he has praised as “a man of faith and sincerity and peace”, is balanced by his administration’s attempt, throughout its second term, to encourage China to become what it calls a “responsible stakeholder” in the world system.

“The president would look awkward by cancelling his plans to go to the Olympics,” said Minxin Pei, director of the China programme at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington.

“The White House has made the judgment that what China is doing on Tibet is not going to cost the administration politically – right now, political news in the US is dominated by two issues: the economy and the Democratic presidential race.”

March 27, 2008 @ 9:47 pm | Comment

Research,

I dont really know what your point is…You reference an article here which talks about Bush admin. stuff, well, no one really respects Bush too much right? So, well, I donno, I for one think the US president has had enough chances to take a stand denouncing the communist regime, and he is weak and timid, selfish and weird, so I for one do not respect that.

Also, you mentionned I should stop assuming Chinese are brainwashed….And you said most people in China are ‘not satisfied’ with the regime…..

Can you tell me your impression of that? What do you say that Chinese people think about having information regulated strictly by propaganda department? Do you think they will ever be smart enough to call for change in an intelligent way???

How come more people do not support justice and human rights workers in China? How come they follow the party line??? I know, they’re scared, but what do you think???

The Chinese people in my country are brainwashed and they read state controlled media over here. They tie national pride to the CCP and make excuses to keep the CCP according to the propaganda. There are a few intelligent Chinese who can see, but not that clearly, well there are some who are pretty clear…

March 27, 2008 @ 11:39 pm | Comment

by the way I agree with your point that the western media people are extremely lazy. Thats the way to say it, they dont do any real research, they just repeat what the loudest or richest person says, they just print whatever their largest mass of stupid readers/watchers will find entertaining and fun……

It seems like theres a mass conspiracy to discourage intelligence and knowledge, or theyre just really negligent and lazy ayayay. they never talk about the real issues, they only look at the surface and refuse to get ot the heart of the matters, It seems the media are afraid of something… If people being real… Im not sure whats it all about )-:

March 27, 2008 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

if you read chinese, you can go to sina.com.cn http://www.sohu.com or 163.com or http://www.qq.com

go and search the slave workers and migrate workers and corruption government officers news, and read the comments of the news in chinese, assume you read chinese, you will see how angry most chinese are towards these kind of news, not to mention many chinese chat in person with family friends about their views in these kind of issues, have you been invited to discussed with them? and mobile phone text too??

March 27, 2008 @ 11:55 pm | Comment

i am in UK now, its crazy here the european media, i know especially like some columnists from dailymail.co.uk .

almost every european media condemn chinese government crackdown the “peaceful” protestants, nowhere really interests what is happening there, i know the chinese government is evil, restrict media and free talking, but these media reporters in europe, maybe they have never been to china, and they certainly don’t care what is happening there, all they can do is blaming on something they heard and second hand information.

the funny thing is that even like Prince Charles is so high profile on human right and democracy in china, i have no idea if he think royal family is a symbolic of democracy? many of the royal family don’t work properly, got well paid, only because they were born in royal family, they absolutely got the right and democracy from they were born.

i don’t understand why so many people just talk, not really think and research, try to manipulte other people thru media, its dangerous.

no wonder i saw a news a few months ago on BBC, about 50% of british think Winston Church is a fictional figure, Shalock Holms is a true character in history, good for the education from media

March 28, 2008 @ 12:06 am | Comment

“i don’t understand why so many people just talk, not really think and research, try to manipulte other people thru media, its dangerous.”
Indeed, ukchinese, I’m glad that we could agree on something: I agree that the Chinese media has handled this horribly, and far too many commenters such as yourself are willing to accept the government version whole without further investigation.

March 28, 2008 @ 12:28 am | Comment

Indeed, ukchinese, I’m glad that we could agree on something: I agree that the Chinese media has handled this horribly, and far too many commenters such as yourself are willing to accept the government version whole without further investigation.

very true, like here in europe as well, sad

chinese government control media, european don’t bother to investigate, just talk, coz talk is cheap, they both manipulate innocent people

March 28, 2008 @ 12:32 am | Comment

Very refreshing to see the Washington Post article.

You know what absolutely stuns me about Western coverage? John Kenwood, one of the Canadian tourists quoted in the Washington Post article, has been willing to discuss what he saw for *weeks*. He’s been quoted in the Toronto Star and a few other smaller articles.

But until yesterday’s Post article, his name hadn’t appeared in print for the last week. His name has barely been mentioned in AP wire reports; he’s never been interviewed by the NY Times, CNN, BBC… It really makes you wonder. I have no idea what the German/French press are saying, but I’m skeptical it’s better than the English press.

I hope the Post article is the first of a series that covers this in a balanced manner, rather than the last time we see John Kenwood’s name out there.

March 28, 2008 @ 12:41 am | Comment

no, i don’t investigate at all, that is why i believe Shalock Holms was a true figure in British history.

sorry, and i don’t read and speak english at all, i only speak and read chinese, thank you for pointing out that, and sadly i live in UK, even narrow down my information sources, well i certainly need to go to school again, thank you kevin, i am sure you are a knowledgble famous professor, you are absolutely qualified to teach everyone in this world, who can compete you with knowledge and information, bravo, good for you, thx for your teaching

March 28, 2008 @ 12:43 am | Comment

@kevin,

I don’t know of a single person (capable of posting online at least) who’s taken the government’s story at face value. The government’s version is assumed to be misleading, because all Chinese recognize it as the one-sided propaganda that it is.

March 28, 2008 @ 12:57 am | Comment

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/weblog.htm

Brutal force used against peaceful demonstration

March 28, 2008 @ 2:06 am | Comment

@CCT

You are singularly obsessed with finger pointing at the Tibetans in Lhasa and “Western” media. Aren’t the events in Lhasa a “classic human tragedy” from every point of view, be it Tibetan or Han Chinese? Just to quote yourself, when we were discussing the events in Beijing 1989:

It sounds like you’re still trying to apportion the right amount of blame here. What a pointless, pointless exercise. I personally don’t think you can weigh and compare levels of blame in situations like this. If there’s a supreme god out there passing judgment on all of us, let him do that. Both sides were driven by fear, paranoia, greed, arrogance, and ambition… and the result was the classic human tragedy.

March 28, 2008 @ 2:14 am | Comment

Who wants to guess why Beijing has lifted the block on the BBC’s website?

To let the average Chinese be stirred up by foreign criticisms? To let the average Chinese flood the ‘have your say’ section with pro-China garbage?

March 28, 2008 @ 2:58 am | Comment

@Snow,

I think that if we consider it, we can come up with some rationales for why Mainland Chinese insist on defending their government, other than they are on average stupid or brainwashed (which I don’t believe is anymore or less true for Da Lu Ren than for the rest of us). Consider twentieth Chinese history and you can see how fragile human life becomes in a system without an authority with a monopoly on violence (the Civil War) and even more so when a really poor excuse for an authority gains a monopoly on violence (the Great Leap Forward). The past one hundred years or so has really made the Mainlanders able to appreciate an authority that is capable of protecting them from external attacks without completely mutilating their lives. For better or worse, the post-Mao CCP has fit that bill.
If you take a walk about China, you’ll notice that it is filthy and poor, and that many things are organised with unbelievable obtuseness. But you’ll also notice that the people by and large are not starving. Most of them have places to live with electricity and access to passably clean water, and most of them have jobs that provide them with enough resources to support their families. They don’t live in terror, providing they keep their heads down and noses clean, and most of them are able to pursue activities that make them happy (provided these are not political). None of this was true of China before the end of the Cultural Revolution, or for a long time before. It’s also not true for many other places on Earth right now.
Why do they support the incarceration of a nice fellow like Hu Jia? Well if they accept the CCP as the authority that is protecting them from a) a government that would be more arbitrarily brutal or even just less competent than the CCP and b) anarchy or civil war, they must also accept that before the CCP is capable of protecting them, it must first protect itself. Presenting information in the mass media that undermines the state is a danger too an authoritarian regime, I think everyone will agree. So Hu Jia has to go to jail for the good of the majority.

The other reason Mainland Chinese may be aggressively defending their government here, especially on the Tibet and Taiwan issues, is just good old fashioned chest thumping national pride. I don’t really get nationalism to be honest with you, but it of course is not confined to China. In my own country, I’ve met many very proud, very a-thoughtful Canadians who will say dumb things like, ‘If the Quebeckers don’t want to be a part of Canada, then they can just get the hell out!’
Also, I think some of the Mainlanders are not especially fond of their government, but are still annoyed by foreigners telling them what they should think about it. I know that whatever reservations I may have about some of Washington’s policies, I find talking to Europeans that keep insisting that America is a hole and that Bush is an idiot and the majority of Americans are dumb to have voted for him, very, very tiresome.

Those are my theories on the matter.

March 28, 2008 @ 3:34 am | Comment

@ukchinese

Just … trying……read….. chinese…. webpage…. sina.com…… Arrrg!!! So many queer looking symbols!
Hhhmmm…..Google web page translation!
Now! It looks better (for me). The sentences a little queer though…. Lets have a look!

About Winston Church (?). He must really be a fictional character.
Winston Churchill… that is a real historical figure. ;-)

March 28, 2008 @ 3:42 am | Comment

Take a look at this article by Howard French. Normally, in my opinion, he doesn’t offer much more insight into China than the average foreigner sitting in a bar. He hit the nail right on the head with this one though. Particularly the last line.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/27/asia/letter.php

March 28, 2008 @ 3:55 am | Comment

I quite agree, Amban. CCT’s ability to play along the lines of the official media while vehemently denying it are quite amazing, and probably not even worthy of a response.

March 28, 2008 @ 4:11 am | Comment

i thought chinese communist government is the evil dictor i am familiar with, now at this site, i see more dictorship, even i claim i don’t agree and trust with communist either, but only because i am chinese, my words are still mocked in many different ways, and being judged ridiculously by some dictors here, they just don’t trust whatever any chinese say, good for them, and even attack chinese website with homophobic word like “So many queer looking symbols!” peace and tolerant , thx for the good example how you don’t trust whatever chinese say, just like communist government government does not trust its people

March 28, 2008 @ 4:24 am | Comment

ukchinese, I certainly don’t discount your opinion just because you’re chinese. However, you paint the “western media” with a pretty broad brush and discount its reports by saying things like maybe they don’t “know” china. I regret to inform you that I do know China, and I do know that the government is engaged in quite unsavory events there at the moment, while employing the same utterly deceptive media tactics used in 1989 to portray protestors (which would not be a big deal in a normal political environment) into “hoodlums” (baotu). I am “fluent” (whatever that means) in Chinese, and in fact watched the 15-minute report on CCTV 4 yesterday portraying the “violence” and “savagery” of the Tibetan “hoodlums.” Having absorbed reports from both the “Western” media and the Chinese media, I find the former far more complete and capable of telling both sides of the story. However, in the end, nothing can justify the repression and violence that China has engaged in in Tibet, not only over the past two weeks, but over the past half-century. This is not a Western media bias, but rather common sense, and I encourage overseas Chinese such as yourselves to move beyond nationalist perspectives on “western” media reports (if I got worked up about every “negative” report about the US in the Chinese media, I would probably be paralyzed by now- not, of course, to draw a parallel between the controlled and manipulated chinese media and free media), don’t simply assume that less-than-flattering reporting about CCP behavior is inherently inaccurate, and maintain a critical stance towards the behavior of this parasitic and outdated Party, not only in terms of its treatment of Han but also of the “minorities.” If even people like you with access to alternative sources of information acquiesce to the CCP’s errors, the cycle of violence will only continue.

March 28, 2008 @ 5:09 am | Comment

For example, did anyone see the videos of the Tibetan monks that “interrupted” the CCP’s carefully-orchestrated media event to whitewash Tibet before the eyes of the world?

March 28, 2008 @ 5:13 am | Comment

Lime,…
“”"”"The past one hundred years or so has really made the Mainlanders able to appreciate an authority that is capable of protecting them from external attacks without completely mutilating their lives.”"”"”

Your obsevations about China… I can’t accept those things… Basically it comes down to trickery… I think that the CCP is tricking people, making them think what the CCP is doing is good for people, but it is not good fopr people. People are have been waiting to reap the benefits of sacrificing their fundamental rights, but it’s comin up s**t… They are really losing their humaniy, giving away their thinking for the mere short term cash from the party (actually the cash is worked for by the people, caush does not from the party, it is manipulated to the extreme for the partys own sake, thats for sure)

Lime I appreciate your thoughts. But they way I see it, the CCP is uprooting every good thing about Chinese civilisation and selling it all in return for its own longgevity… whats that Japanese cartoon where the bad queen eats peoples souls for immortality and at the end its really neat???

March 28, 2008 @ 5:49 am | Comment

@ukchinese

“with homophobic word like “So many queer looking symbols!”"

Come on UK. That was a joke made with a good heart! I was trying to show my own ignorance!!
Do not be so touchy!

Please calm down a bit. Do not see evil thinking where there is none. :-)

Yes. Chinese do look queer to me, there is nothing strange or bad on it.

And yes I know that a lot of Chinese culture hid behind Chinese writing system. It is a pity, but it will too much to ask my old brain to learn now Chinese character. But thanks to Google translation I can understand, though imperfectly, what is written there.

Thanks for the links. I really find them interesting. A new view inside China society.

By the way. Homophobic means aversion and discrimination against homosexuality. You should check your dictionary. ;-)

March 28, 2008 @ 5:50 am | Comment

Everyone,

As sad as it is to hear such irrational comments from ukchinese, I think we all have to make sure to have compassion for Chinese people under the influence of the current situation….

Imagine you were brainwashed and the things you said made no sense cause you trusted something bad….

So I think we gotta make sure not to tease the Chinese people or push them away by putting them down.

I for one, want the truth to all come out, I want all Chinese people to regain their rightful dignity and shake off the CCP religion that is making them ill…

So I would say, dont push them towards the bad things, dont make them feel stupid and therefore defensive and proud….

What the Chinese people need is support from the world so they have a safe haven to escape the terror of the party, if they have no support and help from others, they will have nowhere to turn and will follow the party line to save their skins…

March 28, 2008 @ 5:56 am | Comment

Everyone,

As sad as it is to hear such irrational comments from ukchinese, I think we all have to make sure to have compassion for Chinese people under the influence of the current situation….

Imagine you were brainwashed and the things you said made no sense cause you trusted something bad….

So I think we gotta make sure not to tease the Chinese people or push them away by putting them down.

I for one, want the truth to all come out, I want all Chinese people to regain their rightful dignity and shake off the CCP religion that is making them ill…

So I would say, dont push them towards the bad things, dont make them feel stupid and therefore defensive and proud….

What the Chinese people need is support from the world so they have a safe haven to escape the terror of the party, if they have no support and help from others, they will have nowhere to turn and will follow the party line to save their skins…

March 28, 2008 @ 5:57 am | Comment

uk, dont be so upset please, I didnt notice anyone teasing you. just stick around and feel free to discuss, dont be afraid to be wrong, no one is right all the time so to speak (-:

By the way, in english queer means strange, I think it only used to mean gay recently and sophisticated people will not use it to mean gay, it means strange.

March 28, 2008 @ 6:00 am | Comment

Epoch Times analysis of propaganda in overseas Cinese media on the Tibet issue….

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-27/68105.html

March 28, 2008 @ 6:14 am | Comment

@ukchinese & snow

Yes, by queer I meant strange, unfamiliar, unknown, foreign, mysterious, outlandish, peculiar, unusual, funny, odd, bizarre, weird, etc….

Connecting a a writing system with sexual orientation is beyond my comprehension! ;-)

Snow,m why to you write :-) the otherway around (-: ?

March 28, 2008 @ 6:22 am | Comment

@Amban,

On the short-term, I’ll settle for law and order being restored to Lhasa. By the way, I personally agree with the intellectuals in Beijing who call for open trials of all Tibetans arrested in Lhasa.

I already applaud the initial, tentative steps towards allowing the international media into Lhasa. I don’t pretend that it’s sufficient, but I think it’s progress in the right direction. I think it’s perfectly fair (even if not desirable) that the monks were caught on video. We all know that the Tibetan religious class are extremely angry with present conditions, and this is just confirmation.

And furthermore on the positive side, the comments I’ve seen so far just confirms that their goals are for the Dalai Lama to return, and greater religious freedom. I have no problems with either of those positions as long as it doesn’t intrude upon political sovereignty, and I don’t think the vast majority of Chinese do either.

As far as apportioning blame; I’ll settle for an accurate rendition of what happened. The Washington Post, to me, reads like an accurate rendition of what happened. Few of the other Western media have bothered to give an accurate rendition. Are you uninterested in an accurate rendition?

March 28, 2008 @ 7:24 am | Comment

Going around with media bias.

“Read the comments by Chinese net users

http://tinyurl.com/35l4wu

They don’t think that their media is at all biased. They believe “western” media is biased and has an anti-Chinese agenda.
Too much fucking national pride is what it is. When I talk to Chinese people, in China, I often get this weird apologetic “our country is crappy in a socio-economic way”, but “our morals and cultural values are superior to your hedonistic, non-family oriented foreign ways”.

It’s creepy. Take a look at the China-daily forum if you have morbid interest. It’s full of the craziest ranting racists I have ever seen…and I visited 4chan once.

Bottom line is, I don’t think the government oppressing the people with censorship should be looked at in such a simplistic way. There seems to be a need for the censorship for many people on some level. Like they can’t take a single bit of criticism of their precious middle kingdom and it’s 5000 (actually 50) year great history.”

courtesy of slashdot

March 28, 2008 @ 8:35 am | Comment

Ooops. Error when creating tinyurl

This should work.

http://tinyurl.com/37pqw2

Nothing to do with the Great Chinese Firewall…. ;-)

March 28, 2008 @ 8:41 am | Comment

After reading some China Daily&BBCnews blog entries I am starting to have the strong suspicion that the real aim of the Great Chinese Firewall is to protect us, western people, from the Chinese net citizens!!! ;-)

March 28, 2008 @ 8:47 am | Comment

“Epoch Times analysis of propaganda in overseas Cinese media on the Tibet issue….

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-27/68105.html

Snow, you must be really really desperate that you finally have to refer to this grand information source. Is the wheel still spinning in your tummy?

March 28, 2008 @ 9:23 am | Comment

The Epoch Times bit about how the PRC is exerting influence over international Chinese Language publications is interesting. Anybody who can read Chinese familiar with Sing Tao or the other newspapers mentioned? Any credence to what the Epoch Times is saying?

March 28, 2008 @ 9:38 am | Comment

ET has no credence whatsoever.
Sing Tao, on the other hand, is a normal daily newspaper with middle-of-the-road (Hong Kong) views.

March 28, 2008 @ 9:56 am | Comment

Middle-of-the-road is a phrase that only means you personally find the biases not too divergent from your own. The Beeb and Fox News are both ‘Middle-of-the-Road’ depending on who you talk to. You’ll forgive me, but I don’t often read Hong Kong newspapers and never in Chinese, so what kind of a spin does it have?

March 28, 2008 @ 10:36 am | Comment

I try to avoid Sing Tao at my local supermarket, and go for the “World Journal (Shijie Ribao)” which provides much more balanced perspectives on events. The people who write for Sing Tao are perpetual ball-fondlers for the CCP, and if it was my only news source I might make arguments like CCT or ukchinese.
DOR would like to say ET has no credence whatsoever, but I certainly find it much more credible for reporting the real downsides of contemporary Chinese society. Its editorials are interesting. But it should not be your only news source, to say the least.
There are extreme slants and self-censorship in a lot of “foreign” Chinese media, from Sing Tao to Phoenix TV to (obviously) Wen Wei Po, and although I cannot lay out exactly how these slants came to be, I do have my suspicions in terms of government influence and pressure. For people who have families and friends back in China, or for papers seeking advertising, you can’t just say whatever you want about China, even if you’re in Hong Kong or even farther away in the US.

March 28, 2008 @ 11:03 am | Comment

@Lime

“Sing Tao Daily” is based in HK. Its English sister paper is The Standard. It was pro-British before 1997 and became pro-Beijing after that. “World Journal” is a newspaper that favors KMT in Taiwan. Different people may have diverged opinions on whether those two papers are fair/balanced.

As for The Epoch Times, it is associated with FLG. Actually, you can get a quite balanced view of China by reading it along with The People’s Daily/The China Daily.

March 28, 2008 @ 12:35 pm | Comment

Hey ho, just cause the Epoch Times is a bit overtly ‘religious’ sometimes. doesnt mean it’s not valid.. Its like someone was saying, we see our ‘news’ sources the way we see the world, so if you are more on the ‘religious’ side or open to the idea that the CCP is far far far different from what most people see it as etc etc, then it may appeal to you. Personally, I am not big into media anyway, there are a few key big picture issues that I follow and care deeply about and the rest is less significant to me. I dont know why people are down on the Epoch Times… I guess the level of professionalism is short compared to the old timers… Also I know that Chinese people for the most part are hard wired against anything that sympathizes with Falun Gong….

Anyway, its interesting to talk about…

“”"”"The Epoch Times bit about how the PRC is exerting influence over international Chinese Language publications is interesting. Anybody who can read Chinese familiar with Sing Tao or the other newspapers mentioned? Any credence to what the Epoch Times is saying?”"”"”"

It would explain a lot. I definitely think that the CCP is controlling the everseas Chinese in all countries through all sorts of ways and it would not surprise me in the least if controlling newspapers is one of the big ones. There are all sorts of issues that need to be controlled by CCP.

One other way is throug the student associations at universities…

It makes me think abou tthe comment about some people needing to have propaganda in their lives… I dont get it. The Chinese people like to save face, so how can they let themselves be taken as fools by a political party???

Peace, goodnight.

March 28, 2008 @ 1:49 pm | Comment

@CCT

Are you uninterested in an accurate rendition?

Of course not. I just find your aimless rage against Tibetans expressed in a previous thread an interesting retreat from your position that it is pointless to apportion blame. Public trials for rioters. Why not? But is it a one way street? Don’t you think it is a good idea that Tibetans be allowed to file lawsuits against the TAR government for denying them their constitutional right to protest (peacefully)? Perhaps an important precedent can be set here.

March 28, 2008 @ 2:06 pm | Comment

“Aimless range against Tibetans”? How could it be both aimless and “against” Tibetans?

I’ll help you make it even more accurate: “my finely targeted rage at violent Tibetan rioters”; but rage aside, I absolutely believe they should be put on trial.

As far as constitutional right to protest, from what I read, the monks arrested on March 10th are being charged with illegal assembly. I think that trial too should be held openly.

March 28, 2008 @ 2:26 pm | Comment

It’s interesting that “law and order” would finally become so important for dealing with the so-called “hoodlums.” Yifa zhiguo… except when it does not meet the needs of the Party.
Call me crazy, but I think that the open trial of Hu Jintao for the massacre of peaceful Tibetan protestors in ’89 would be even more important.
This could be followed by putting the recent stroke-sufferer Li Peng on trial, along with the deceased Deng Xiaoping, for the 1989 Beijing Massacre, which killed countless peaceful protestors as well as hundreds of innocent passersby… add on Jiang Zemin, Deng Yingchao, the list grows…
This could be followed by the removal of Mao’s body from Tiananmen Square, to be flogged for his slaughter of the Chinese people far beyond that inflicted by the Japanese, whom he “thanked” in the 1970s for providing the proper environment for the CCP to come to power.
I wonder, how is it that only the Tibetans, responding to decades of brutality, suddenly have to be put on trial?
All past crimes are to be forgotten for the “national glory” of GDP-ism and the Olympics, but those wily Tibetans MUST have their day in court, right? Oh, and don’t forget to hate the Japanese, although Mao thanked them.
(I do agree that if there are trials, they should be open- however, of course, that is nothing but a pipe dream. Furthermore, the Chinese legal system is nothing but an appendage of the Party, and an openly unfair trial is not really anything to clap one’s hands or pat one’s back about).

March 28, 2008 @ 2:52 pm | Comment

“As far as constitutional right to protest, from what I read, the monks arrested on March 10th are being charged with illegal assembly. I think that trial too should be held openly.”
CCT refuses to acknowledge that the Constitution is worthless… as I said above, yifa zhiguo, unless it runs counter to the Party’s interests. They certainly don’t hesitate to refer to laws about “undermining state authority,” etc.
The simple fact of the matter, CCT, is that the monks arrested on March 10th should not have been arrested.
Any government that arrests peaceful protestors and then constructs a complex narrative about “Tibetan savages” brutalizing innocent Han does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, and the problems created cannot be resolved through the show trials that you are endorsing.

March 28, 2008 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

The cry of Tibet

http://tinyurl.com/22e5lj

March 28, 2008 @ 3:24 pm | Comment

[ZZ]
针对西藏出现的问题,为什么民主与人权记录最好的北欧国家没有大声指责中国,为什么存在国内民族问题的西班牙加拿大等国没有大声指责中国,而是由德、美、法、英这些历史上的所谓的大国强国跳了出来,原因很简单,他们不甘心让崛起的中国影响他们的蛋糕。
什么是民主?民主就是作为世界上人口最多的大国需要拥有同等份量的世界发言权。但是,我们五百亿美元的军事开支被五千亿美元军事开支的国家说了军事威胁,我们不能向一个它们不喜欢的非洲国家出口数额不大的军火,而它们则可以大手笔地将军火运到我们的一个地区,以此支持让这个国家处于数十年的分裂状态,这就是它们的民主吗?
什么是平等?平等就是全世界的每一个人都具同等的生命价值,都应该获得同样的物质与经济利益,但是它们却视自己的国民为珍宝,视非它们的国民为草芥,它们的炸弹至今仍在经常夺去伊拉克或阿富汗平民的生命,它们理所当然,却跳出来谴责我们对真正杀害平民的犯罪分子进行了”镇压”!这就是它们的平等吗?
什么是自由?自由是所有人的都有选择不伤害别的生活方式的自由,但是它们允许藏独分子四分煽风点火,攻击我们的使馆,却不允许我们的留学生们举行一个和平集会表达反对暴力骚乱态度,这就是它们的自由吗?
它们四处宣扬它们的制度,但是它们的”完美制度”到现在都还没有帮助任何一个发展中的国家发展成为真正经得起检验的强国富强。俄罗斯实行了这种”完美”的制度,但是俄罗斯从西方得到了什么?得到了已然被逼到了墙角的待遇。
它们的仇恨躲在阴暗的地方愈演愈烈,一点都容不得我们走向阳光的路,于是借着各种幌子设下各种各样的陷阱,它们希望这个国家四分五裂,就如一百年前一样,它们甚至在幻想着这个有潜力成为世界头号大国如同上一个百年那样一蹶不振的样子,从它们的身上,我们何曾能找出半点善良的希望。
是的,情况比想象的要糟糕,它们已经公然编造理由了,它们已经妄顾是非了,它们戴着华丽的面罩却怀着一颗丑陋无比的心,但是,这样一些恶劣的行径就是中国人最怕的情况吗?从1840年到1945年一百多年里,我们面对的情况比这个要糟糕多少倍,我们最终倒下了吗?
这样的情况下,我们应该失望,但不应该绝望,正如小民前面的评论中提到的那样,中国的最大对手只是自己,我们有十三亿勤劳勇敢的人民,只要我们用一个声音说话,我们的声音就占到了世界的1/5,我们有富饶美丽的土地,只要我们辛勤劳作,就可以让每一个华夏子女都有幸福的生活,这才是我们生存的根本,善待我们的人民,捍卫我们的土地,这样,在这个地球上就不会什么让我们真正感觉到恐惧的东西。

面对它们的挑衅,我们应该如何回击呢?
强硬的措词,大规模的集会,停办奥运会,展开超出国力承担的军备?都不是,因为,这都是它们乐于见到的,它们希望这个越来越强大的国家走向分崩离析,它们希望将我们的国家从建设的主轴上拉回来,让我们在仇恨中失去发展的动力。
所以请用我们的方式还击,用它们最不希望的方式还击它们,我们牢记这些丑恶的嘴脸,我们继续推进国内的改革,我们继续推进国内的民主,我们继续发展经济,我们全力办好奥运会,我们团结所有值得团结的国家,我们时刻不要忘记,如果我们只会愤怒,如果我们停滞不前,如果我们忘记国家的本来意义,就是满足了它们的阴暗期望.

March 28, 2008 @ 8:28 pm | Comment

if any one who read chinese here go to news portal website like sina, sohu and 163, you will see what CCTV really means to most chinese internet users there, CCTV represent the fake tiger picture, liar, chinese internet users just mock almost every fake news use the word CCTV, trust me, most chinese are brainwashed by government media, but the other way around, because chinese know they have been manipulated by government, they just know most government media are CCTV, they are immuned to CCTV

there are about 3 to 4 million users subscribed people’s daily 20 years ago, and i am sure if you guys not brainwashed, you know how many subscribers it has not for people’s daily, i think chinese experience more and immunised by different, they just simple do their own judgement, of course, mostly on their own benefit

by the way, i never support dictatorship government anywhere in the world, include china, everyone deserve freedom and the way they want to live, include tibet too

March 28, 2008 @ 8:56 pm | Comment

uk,

I guess there are a lot of people who know the CCP media is a liar, a big big big one… But dont you think theres anything they can DO about it??? I mean, there are a few who are able to access what everyone else can access, but MOST of the Chinese people genuinely have no access to any second sources, so they have to live by the thinking of the masses in China. Besides, if they dont they will be lynched if not tortured to death and all…

So my point is only that the situation where the CCP controls peoples minds and uses threats to make them follow the party line is inexcusable. So why do Chinese people excuse the party so much uk?

I guess it is because they tie their national pride to supporting the party. But whent eh students and all stood up in 1989, they thought it was healthy to criticize government policy, why not now? They are afraid to to confront the slaughter and torture, propaganda warfare and denouncements. I want to help… I want them to feel safe enough to be real, but the CCP is so ‘powerful’ how can they feel safe??? So I think the current situation of international scrutiny and denouncement of the Tibetan persecuation is very good for all Chinese people (-:

March 29, 2008 @ 12:03 am | Comment

uk,

I guess there are a lot of people who know the CCP media is a liar, a big big big one… But dont you think theres anything they can DO about it??? I mean, there are a few who are able to access what everyone else can access, but MOST of the Chinese people genuinely have no access to any second sources, so they have to live by the thinking of the masses in China. Besides, if they dont they will be lynched if not tortured to death and all…

So my point is only that the situation where the CCP controls peoples minds and uses threats to make them follow the party line is inexcusable. So why do Chinese people excuse the party so much uk?

I guess it is because they tie their national pride to supporting the party. But whent eh students and all stood up in 1989, they thought it was healthy to criticize government policy, why not now? They are afraid to to confront the slaughter and torture, propaganda warfare and denouncements. I want to help… I want them to feel safe enough to be real, but the CCP is so ‘powerful’ how can they feel safe??? So I think the current situation of international scrutiny and denouncement of the Tibetan persecuation is very good for all Chinese people (-:

March 29, 2008 @ 12:03 am | Comment

eco, very fine article

Lime, I think cause I write upwards…

Kevin, “”"”"It’s interesting that “law and order” would finally become so important for dealing with the so-called “hoodlums.” “”"”

yur so totally right. When the CCP commits mass atrocities the Chinese ,er, CCT conveniently (for the CCP) resort to moral relativism and call these kinds of value jugements ‘Western concepts’, but as soon as the CCP says the magic words, suddenly law and aorder are promoted in dealing with the contrived crimes of CCP persecuted Tibetans, so typical.

Wow, I’m really cynical… Is it because I am capricorn?? Heh heh…

March 29, 2008 @ 12:20 am | Comment

cc,

In reference to your tasteless remarks…

wheel in the belly______________
you dont believe its possible eh.
do you believe there are energy channels in the body?
So you think there can be energy channels but no energy wheel?
No, you dont believe there are energy channels? What about energy? Where does that come from, how it it possible that there is energy inside our bodies?
How about thought? What kind of magic superstition is that? How can we be endowed with this trippy capability, thought, how come I cant see it, what is it, where does it come from????

How about the moral conscience? What kind of superstition is that!!?? Good, bad…. What nonesense!, its all a bunch of anti science feudalism eh???

solar axis system, galaxies, cells………I guess you cant accept any of that feudal superstition either???

I am trying to show you that flat out denying stuff that sounds impossible is very unscientific of you. Science does not mean that everything can be explained into mundaneness, science is an exploration of the totally weird phenomenon in the world, so unless you are worshipping the religion of nolife, no phenomenon, no explanation, no exploration, no learning, no interest……..no new development, , unless these are the tenants of your life (YOUR OWN VERSION OF SUPERSTITION), wake up! (-:

March 29, 2008 @ 12:34 am | Comment

One more thing,

http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/65.php/?cl=6675

a petition they will deliver to embassies around the world, encouraging peace talks with Dalai Lama…

March 29, 2008 @ 12:49 am | Comment

LG Translation (by google)
Address the problem of Tibet, why democracy and human rights record of the best Nordic countries do not have loudly criticized China, and why the existence of an internal ethnic problems countries such as Spain and Canada did not loudly accused China, but from Germany, the United States, France and Britain on the history of these so-called big and powerful countries jumped out, the reason is very simple, they are not reconciled to the rise of China’s influence their cake.
What is democracy? Democracy is the world’s most populous country need to have the same amount of say in the world. However, we have 50 billion US dollars of military spending by 500 billion US dollars in military spending that the national military threat, we can not give them one of the African countries do not like the small amount of arms exports, and they can be generous to transport arms to one of our areas, so as to support the country in a few decades divided This is the democracy?
What is equality? Is equal to everyone else in the world with the same value of life, should receive the same material and economic interests, but they have their own nationals as for treasures, as their non-nationals as worthless, and their bombs are still frequently Iraq or Afghanistan claimed the lives of civilians, they granted, but we have come out to condemn the killing of civilians on the real criminals who carried out the “suppression”! This is the equality?
What is freedom? Freedom is for all have chosen not to harm the freedom of other lifestyles, but they allow Tibetan independence elements quarter stir up trouble, to attack our embassy, but our students are not allowed to hold a peaceful assembly expressed its opposition to violent riots attitude, This is the freedom?
They promote their systems everywhere, but they are “perfect system” to now have not any help in the development of a country’s development is truly to become a rich and powerful can withstand the test of power. Russia had adopted such “perfect” system, but Russia from the West have been? Has already been forced to the corner treatment.
Hide their hatred growing dark places, that we are not tolerate the road toward the sun, then use the guise of a variety of traps set, they hope that this divided country, as a century ago, they are even in the imagines that this has the potential to become the world’s number one big country like a hundred years, as the sluggish appearance, from their possession, we can ever find the slightest bit of good hope.
Yes, the situation worse than imagined, they have blatantly fabricated reasons, they have disregard of the right, they are wearing gorgeous masks with an ugly tremendous heart, but this is some bad act of the Chinese people I am afraid the situation? From 1840 to 1945, more than 100 years, we have a situation worse than this many times, we finally collapsed?
Under such circumstances, we should be disappointed, but it should not despair, as Sham mentioned in the previous reviews, as China’s biggest opponent is ourselves, and we have 1.3 billion industrious and courageous people, as long as we speak with one voice, Our voice in the world accounting for 1 / 5, we have a rich and beautiful land, as long as we After working hard, we can let every Chinese children have a happy life, and this is our basic survival, treat our people, defend our land, so that in this planet will not be what we really feel fear things.

They face of provocation, how should we fight back?
Hardline terms of large-scale assembly, closed the Olympic Games, started to exceed the strength of arms? Is not because they are happy to see this, and they hope that the increasingly powerful country in the collapsed, and they hope to build our country from the main axis of pull-back, we hate to lose the momentum of development.
Therefore, please use our way back, most do not want to use them the way they fight back, we remember those ugly faces, we continue to promote domestic reforms, we continue to promote domestic democracy, we continue to develop the economy, we are fully committed to successfully hosting the Olympic Games, We should unite all the national unity, we should not forget that moment, if we would only anger, if we stand still, if we forget that the original national significance, is to satisfy their darkest expectations.

March 29, 2008 @ 1:33 am | Comment

RE: LG’s post

The ‘ugly faces’ (丑恶的嘴脸) jibe in context is lies somewhere between uncivil and racist.

March 29, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

Hello folks,

The DL has been using the following statement for a good while to gain international support, i.e. he does not seek Tibet independence but autonomy, real autonomy, which he terms “the middel way”. On the basis of the above, the Chinese government has been widely critisized for not talking to the DL.

A piece of information from XinHua after interviewing an “Tibetan issue expert” from the Chinese Social Science Academy. The expert made the following comment about the DL’s “middle way”, which he basically classifies as seeking Tibet independence of every bit but name. Here is what he said about the conditions set up by the DL in his “middle way”.

1. The DL insists that Tibet (not TAR, the DL apparently has his own interpretation of what his “Tibet” means, see No.4 below), historically and culturally, has been an independent nation, has never been part of China.
2. The DL insists that all Chinese military and military facilities be removed from Tibet. The status of Tibet is to be discussed by a international conference. Tibet becomes a “peaceful region” and a “buffer zone”.
3. The DL insists that Tibet can establish diplomatic relations with other nations and international organisations.
4. The DL insists that the autonomous Tibet include TAR and ethnic Tibetan areas from four other Chinese provinces, the Greater Tibet with an approximately 240km2 territory. In other words, the administrative structures of those parts of the four provinces will be reorganised by the DL. The DL will be in charge of the Greater Tibet affairs.
5. The DL insists that any non-Tibetan inhabitants within the Greater Tibet region be removed.

Does the above reflect the key points of the DL’s “middle way” in its current setting? Has he made any adjustment?

March 29, 2008 @ 5:14 am | Comment

Tibet is such a convenient tool for countries like Germany and USA to further demonize China and Chinese in general especially now that Taiwan’s next government won’t be that anti-Chinese like the current one to be their political pawn.

The recent events also once again highlight the ingrained racism held by the main stream media and ordinary people in some European countries especially Germany against China and Chinese, not just the CCP government.

If Chinese were brainwashed because of CCP’s propaganda and media censorship, these in the West at best must have been brainwashed by their own arrogance, hypocrisy and paranoia.

March 29, 2008 @ 5:44 am | Comment

@Bing
What recent events are you referring to? And how do they highlight the ‘ingrained racism’ of Europeans against Chinese people, exactly?

I’ll agree that if the rest of the world wanted a stick to beat China with, China has certainly supplied one in the form of Tibet.

March 29, 2008 @ 7:36 am | Comment

@bing

Taiwan a political paw of the west…
Ingrained racism of mainstream media and ordinary Europeans against china and Chinese.
Brainwashed by our own arrogance, hypocrisies and paranoia….

Wow! I never realized we were so bad!! ;-)

….jokes apart, About that racism accusation I must said something… For a country that has received a “major” influx of Chinese immigration lately, we treat them with the very same respect and give them the same “rights” as our own countrymen.
Also, last time I check 20% of adopted all orphan Chinese children were done from here. It is easy to find families with one (or more) adopted kids, there are even families with a mix of own kids and adopted ones. There are no distinctions made with this children, they are 100% the same as the rest, no distinctions made whatsoever, they are our own people…except that we also try to give them the opportunity not to lose the culture or their country of origin if they want.
And no, we do not change or opinion about china or Chinese, and specially of those who live with us, no matter what “crisis” may arise now or in the future.

March 29, 2008 @ 11:31 am | Comment

It’s really interesting that lots people who really don’t read Chinese are here talking about Chinese domestic affairs.

March 31, 2008 @ 5:53 pm | Comment

@snow,

“So I think we gotta make sure not to tease the Chinese people or push them away by putting them down.”

I, for one, am sick and tired of bending over backwards for people who don’t even realize how offensive their behaviour is to others.

It isn’t necessary to label Japanese, Koreans or Chinese as the worst; they all do it. But, the complete lack of any interest in MY culture and MY “national sensitivities” while demanding respect for their own is getting really old.

* Tour groups traveling abroad that insist they can only eat at restaurants serving food from their own country, and then criticizing it as being poor.

* Asking rude questions about personal matters such as money.

* Treating people with darker skin as inferiors, while wearing “ghetto chic” attire.

I’m sick of it.

= = = = = = = = = =

@ Lime,

“Middle of the road” is a phrase that means median, average or typical. If you believe all media have to have some kind of spin, go figure it out for yourself.

If you don’t then why not take my word for it?

= = = = = = = = = =

@ kevinnolongerinpudong

“DOR would like to say ET has no credence whatsoever, but I certainly find it much more credible for reporting the real downsides of contemporary Chinese society.”

April Fools, right?

Reading ET to try an understand China is like reading the Teheran Times to understand Israel. It might be interesting, but no one would ever say it was accurate, balanced or unbiased.

= = = = = = = = = = = =

@LG

Are you advocating than anyone who doesn’t read German never say anything about Germany?

April 2, 2008 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

To JXie:
Bringing the topic of a couple of Chinese being interrogated by the French police showed your lack of understanding of France and its people, as well as your innate inferiority complex; yet cowardly blaming it to your rich Chinese friends while you claim that it didn’t bother you at all. Nonsense!
France is a country of law, and its people take their responsibilities seriously. If they felt this could be a criminal connection, they would appropriately call the police. It is remotely a racial issue. This could happen in many other well-developed countries. In China too my salmon pack was taken away by the customs after an unpleasant encounter with the officers. But this is obviously for a different reason; they “love” my salmon.
I nevertheless symphatize the Chinese couple’s unfortunate experience if the news is indeed true. But the true is, in developed countries only criminals deal in large amount of hard cash; others use credit card, or other form of payment. Don’t you know that?

To CCT:
Will there be a public trial for the Tibetans? The fact you are talking about it shows China is still a long way to go. Dream on it until it is over. The second “it” refers to something in China specifically.

To Dor:
The tourists and foreigners have the right to express their opinions, just like you are now expressing your feeling toward them. What is the problem? If the food doesn’t taste good, or up to their palate, should they say,” oh, I love it, ..it is the best in the world!”?
I know you are a sycophant, and your livelihood depends on the Chinese government, but don’t expect others to behave like you, especially where the education in those countries emphasizes the critical thinking of right and wrong. I guess you don’t understand it either. Live in your own world, especially in China, and pretend there is no other civilization.

………..

Arbutus

April 5, 2008 @ 12:10 pm | Comment

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