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Hacked By AdGhosT

Hacked By AdGhosT & Tayeb TN & bo hmid

 

 

 

 

 

close your eyes and listen Elfen Lied <3

Greets~:AdGhosT-- adel pro tn- Anonback Tnx - A_Ghacker - xvirus -Malousi Foryn - MaxKiller - Nexamos

John Pomfret reviews “Fragile Superpower” » The Peking Duck

John Pomfret reviews “Fragile Superpower”

Longtime readers know Pomfret is one of my favorite reporters. The former Washington Post bureau chief here in Beijing, he’s now overseeing the paper’s bureau in Los Angeles, and it’s good to see him writing something about China once again. His review of Susan L. Shirk’s new book is thought provoking, to say the least.

Susan L. Shirk starts out her revelatory book on China with a nightmare scenario. A Chinese SU-27 fighter and a Taiwanese F-16 collide over the Taiwan Strait. The incident spirals out of control when the Chinese do what they always do in a crisis: blame the other guy. Demonstrations erupt in Beijing. Protesters demand that the Communist Party confront Taiwan and the United States. “When will China finally stand up?” read the signs. Washington scrambles as Beijing readies for war.

This brief, fictional opening frames Shirk’s book, dramatizing the possibility that China’s communist leadership could lurch into combat with Taiwan and the United States, which is obligated to defend the island nation under the Taiwan Relations Act. She sets out to explain why it is not a mere fantasy and why we, basically, need to be nice to China to keep the nightmare at bay.

At a time when much writing about China frothily presumes the unstoppable rise of a global titan, it is refreshing that a respected academic and former government official (Shirk was the deputy assistant secretary of state for East Asia during the second Clinton administration) questions the notion that China is going to run the world. “China may be an emerging superpower,” she writes, “but it is a fragile one.”

It’s clear almost immediately that Shirk and Pomfret share similar views of China, especially (it seems to me) the notion that the CCP is not all bad but more bad than good. The article spans some of the topics Pomfret wrote about himself in his excellent book Chinese Lessons – the government-inspired nationalism , further fomented by government-inspired loathing of the Japanese; the party’s obsession with remaining in power at any cost; and the notion that China is far less stable and far less likely to emerge as a true superpower than most of us are led to believe. (I wrote about Pomfret’s thoughts on these topics in an old post that’s still one of my favorites, even though it brought to this blog its most annoying troll ever.)

Pomfret praises the book but criticizes, it, too – quite harshly. In particular, he thinks she is exaggerating the risk of a war with the US (as do I) and I like the way he expresses this:

Squeeze China too much, she argues, and you’ll get World War III. But, historically, China has been a far more fragmented society than either Germany or Japan. Faced with a grave threat to their nation’s survival from the Japanese invasion that began in the ’30s, what did China’s elite do? They barely battled the Japanese and continued their civil war. One Chinese person is a dragon, a Chinese saying goes, but three of us are just an insect.

I’m still working, so I’ll have to leave it at that. You’ll want to read it all.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 96 Comments

“Yeah I’m really left wondering about the relevance of threads such as this….”

Welcome to the world of blogging. 🙂

October 3, 2007 @ 6:56 am | Comment

Raj

Precisely because it is not a cakewalk, I believe the U.S. won’t intervene. And furthermore, even without severe loss of life, any action by the Chinese on the international debt markets could eviscerate the ability of the U.S. acquire enough capital inflows to sustain its own economy.

And that’s the killer, Raj. To attack Taiwan, China needs to 1) liberate itself from the 1 trillion dollars of U.S. treasuries through the China Investment Corp. vehicle, which was launched a few days ago, thereby liberating itself from U.S. monetary policy, and 2) develop a large domestic consumer market independent of the United States. Analysts at our bank, and several other investment banks including Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and Lehman Brothers anticipate something like that occuring within ten to fifteen years with a near certain probability. And in that time, if the United States continues to remain a debtor nation (which again is maintained with near certain probability, if you look at debt markets) the Chinese can simply say to the U.S.: “Mess with us in Taiwan, and we’ll make you default on your debt. Taiwan or your financial system? It’s your choice.”

So in the short term, the costs are lives and materiel; in the long term, the United States might very well be forced to sacrifice its position of financial leadership for Taiwan. And the beauty of it is that China will, by then, suffer less damage than the U.S. from the shakeout because of its substantial savings, holdings of natural resources across the globe, and well-developed consumer market.

Taiwan? It’s a speck in a puddle that sits astride a geostrategic strait leading to China’s asian rival, Japan. All that remains is for China to bide her time and force a weakened United States and her vassals from East Asia.

October 3, 2007 @ 7:51 am | Comment

“Precisely because it is not a cakewalk, I believe the U.S. won’t intervene.”

That’s complete drivel. If the US felt the situation was so dire that it needed to intervene, the threat of loss of life wouldn’t deter it.

Additionally, the public pressure that would be put on the White House for letting China stroll into Taiwan would seriously damage any administration. Americans may not dwell on the island’s fate much, but when presented with authoritarian China invading democratic Taiwan and the subsequent media coverage, that would switch them on.

Moreover, as you somewhat suggest, leaving Taiwan to its fate would doom the US itself in East Asia. If it doesn’t take a stand on that it would never be able to take a stand on anything against China. Other countries would take it as a sign of weakness, further damaging US interests around the world. America would be shown to be a paper tiger.

So it wouldn’t be an issue of “Taiwan or the US financial system”, more an issue of what the President at the time would see to be the bigger threat – potential damage to the US economy or its foreign policy. One thing that would play upon his/her mind is that foreign policy can often aid or hinder the economy. A US shown to be weak and ineffectual would find it more difficult to secure energy supplies, sign treaties, etc as the other countries would say “well, if we get in trouble you’ll probably back out, won’t you? so we’ll look for a partner that would help us out.”

October 3, 2007 @ 8:54 pm | Comment

Having actually read the book I have to disagree with the assertion that it says “Don’t criticise China because it might implode/cause a war?” What the book says, imho, is that the US needs to bear in mind CHinese perspectives and think of trying to give them a way out that does involve war

October 3, 2007 @ 8:55 pm | Comment

Raj,

Your bravado is based assumptions of the past that are not longer valid. Just because of consequence from a war with China over Taiwan is huge, the US government is putting a stop to Chen Sjui-bian’s move toward independence. If you don’t like, that’s your problem.

To the contrary of what you said, the current US policy is not weakening its standing and influence in Asia. Please name me a few countries that have a problem with the recent US rebuke on Chen Sjui-bian. Asians want to see stable relationship between the US and China in Asia.

A few recent polls show most American people don’t want to get involved with China in a war over Taiwan. There is also a shift among the elite class. Don’t you notice that the front-runners of Presidential candidates of both parties have been fairly circumspect on China, and avoid unnecessary rhetorics that he or she has to deal with when comes to office. China has become a sort of partner in many areas.

By the way, Raj, we can debate who the winner will be in case of a war over Taiwan. If Taiwan declares independence and the US doesn’t stop it, I am sure China will stop it, China is working with the assumption of the involvement from the US.

October 4, 2007 @ 2:08 am | Comment

“”””””””China has become a sort of partner in many areas.””””””””

Or more accurately, China has become a sort of evil overlord, big brother, terrorist in many areas.

Hello, a partnership is not what you call it when one party constantly threatens the other with scarry weapons.

China may be feared (woohoo congratulations (not)) but it is not respected and there are no real partnerships that are not based on subverting and corrupting the interests of the people while making deals with filthy money and forcing people to comply.

Just check out the way the CCP says it is so sad that the German Chacellor met with Dalai Lama. Oh boo hoo, are they so unstable that a meeting with the Dalai Lama threatens such a regime (yes) And they are insisting that the Chancellor, make up for her mistake or else china will punish the countries trade realtionship.

So you see, China does not have partners, it threatens with its carrot on a stick+scary weapons, or it does scoundrel deals with other corrupt and filthy regimes like in Africa and middle east. Not exactly partnerships to be proud of eh?

Thats why under the circumstances the great solution is for the CCP to fall from within, let the Chinese people get a reality check and run the country better.

October 4, 2007 @ 2:19 am | Comment

snow, say it louder if doing so will make you feel better.

October 4, 2007 @ 4:23 am | Comment

snow, you have got to be kidding me:

“Hello, a partnership is not what you call it when one party constantly threatens the other with scarry weapons.”

Are you referring to the US? Who has the most nuclear warheads? Who has military bases scattering around the world? Who has just invaded two sovereign countries? Not China. Talk about threat!

“China may be feared (woohoo congratulations (not)) but it is not respected and there are no real partnerships that are not based on subverting and corrupting the interests of the people while making deals with filthy money and forcing people to comply.”

One can’t describe the US better than what you just did above. Does the US have genuine partners? Make no mistake, Britain and Japan are just little poodles that do whatever America tells them to do, they are not true partners. America will never accept partnership with any country on an equal footing because it will continue to seek to protect, prolong and maintain its supremacy over any other country and possible and potential competitor. Be it China, Russia or any country. No, we (the US) are No.1 forever and we are here to stay.

Snow, you need to get out once in a while and listen to what people are saying about the US.

October 4, 2007 @ 6:17 am | Comment

Like most western expats in China whose experience only turned them against China and the Chinese, John Pomfret is championing “getting tough with China”, but he offers nothing new other than what scores of American China-bashers have advocated for in the past, which is preparing for the inevitable war with China so America, the God-chosen country that embodies justice, freedom and everything good you can think of, will once for all destroy China, the God-forsaken country that stands for evil and everything bad you can think of.

The Chinese always blame the other guy in a crisis? I will need more evidence to be convinced, other than a stereotypical statement from Pomfret.

“Patriotic Education Campaign” for all college students in China? How is it different from the allegiance to the flag required of every young school kid or the over-the-top July 4th celebrations in the US?

“Accidental” bombing of the Chinese Embassy? Is it really accidental? How would the Americans react if the US embassy in Nairobi is “accidentally” bombed by the Chinese and three Americans were killed as a result? Laughing it off?

The spy plane incident? Americans were concerned and upset recently because Russian long-range bombers got as close as 60 miles off the coast of Alaska, and you expect the Chinese to be OK when the American spy plane was some 20 miles away from Chinese coast? Hypocrisy really knows no bound.

October 4, 2007 @ 6:38 am | Comment

@ All

Apologies for the above(got my gusto). The “super power”(wife) dragged me away for “talks” (domestic chores) and I have come back re-invigorated(tamed).

October 4, 2007 @ 6:42 am | Comment

I’m online for just a minute, so let me just say Pfeffer doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Pomfret is not anti-Chinese or anti-China and never has been. Your belligerence and stridency indicate you’re a fanatic; I think Pomfret’s comments about out-of-control nationalism really struck home with you so you’ve got to lash out. Do you happen to keep a web site chronicling the evils of the Japanese?

About the US being No. 1 forever, I’m afraid that’s probably true, at least for several generations to come, so get used to it. It’s not being replaced by China anytime soon and (perhaps unfortunately) there’s no power on earth that can even begin to stand up to it. I despise what this power has done to the minds of America’s present leadership, but to deny this power and to think it might be overshadowed by China is self-delusional. China is still one of the world’s poorer countries, for all its greatness and progress. I hope it moves up and that its success continues, but don’t fool yourself about it.

October 4, 2007 @ 9:54 am | Comment

Richard,

Before Pfeffer joined in, most of the discussion is about the recent US goverment polciy on Taiwan; it is not about a debate on who the strongest is.

October 4, 2007 @ 10:20 am | Comment

Z, please provide hard evidence to support your conclusions. You’ve said:

“Just because of consequence from a war with China over Taiwan is huge, the US government is putting a stop to Chen Sjui-bian’s move toward independence. If you don’t like, that’s your problem.”

The US government is putting a stop to it because it does not have the resources to fight another war at the moment. The mess in Iraq is consuming them all. Planes are even being diverted from Okinawa to go to the Middle East at the moment, and the American Air Force is starting to complain about it, so I read in the SCMP today. Loss of life is a factor, but get real. Americans, whether they are in government, the military, or just simple citizens, are far more preoccupied with loss of life in Iraq at the moment than the prospect of an eventual loss of life in a hypothetical Chinese war. I don’t like openly criticizing irrational posts, but your whole post shows a general ignorance of the American public and government (besides Bush) and what they find important.

“A few recent polls show most American people don’t want to get involved with China in a war over Taiwan. There is also a shift among the elite class.”

Um…. duh…. what RATIONAL country’s citizens wants its soldiers to get involved in any war. Nevertheless, support for Taiwan has not waned in the US. The House of Representatives has passed two resolutions supporting Taiwan in the last few months, one urging Bush and State Dept to approve a sale of F-16s to the island, and another urging Bush and State to drop restrictions on Taiwanese government officials who wish to visit the US. It is Bush who is lacking in support, not Congress. As for the American people, Zogby conducted a poll a few weeks ago that indicated strong support for Taiwan’s UN vote among average citizens from both sides of the political aisle.

Presidential candidates have been circumspect? That is a no brainer. That’s because AMBIGUITY IS THE STATED US POLICY when it comes to Taiwan and it has been for decades. The one who has departed from US policy in recent years is…. can you guess?…. Bush and his administration. Thankfully he will only be around for another two years.

Z, if you want to maintain your reputation as being qualified to discuss this issue, you had better start citing hard facts to prove your points. And you had better stop talking as if you understand the political temperature of the US. I hate ad-hominum attacks, but it is clear that you have no idea about the things you claim to know.

October 4, 2007 @ 11:55 am | Comment

“””””””””Snow, you need to get out once in a while and listen to what people are saying about the US.””””””””””

“”””””””‘scores of American China-bashers have advocated for in the past, which is preparing for the inevitable war with China so America, the God-chosen country that embodies justice, freedom and everything good you can think of, will once for all destroy China, the God-forsaken country that stands for evil and everything bad you can think of.”””””””””””

What are you on about cheif? Actually I prefer to look at the facts then what “people are saying about the US” As for what you are on about people China bashing, it’s bull. I have never heard in my lifetime ANYONE criticise China unjustly. I know a lot of people who dispise the communist party but that is totally different from calling China evil, dont make that mistake about me. And (I live in Canada by the way…) I have NEVER heard ANYONE talk about America as though it was perfexct in anyway. Actually THE TRUTH IS that what I hear ALOT is people calling America sooo bad and totally snoozing over China’s evils. The days of people using terms like yellow teror or some weirdness and calling AMerica perfect are long over so stop usiing these cliches as excuses.

Do you think that people would criticise China unjustly, show me the instances please, if not, stop defending the CCP from just criticism.

October 4, 2007 @ 11:56 am | Comment

Sorry, what were we talking about? Taiwan right, seems like the CCP is using this issue to form the minds of the Chinese people and to test the waters of the international community. I really don’t think it’s about getting back Taiwan for some cultural reason (can you imagine the CCP actually having cultural values, what a sick joke) . It will try to see if it can maintain a high level of blindness within China and see how corrupt it can cause the rest of the world to be, and therefore be powerless. Same with the Dalai Lama stuff, keep the people under mind control as well as bribe and threaten the international community in their hopes of harnessing global control.

October 4, 2007 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

Thomas,

“The US government is putting a stop to it because it does not have the resources to fight another war at the moment. The mess in Iraq is consuming them all.”

It is often said that the US is able to flight two major wars at the same time. So, it is not true. If flighting the small number of Iraqi insurgents is consuming them all and stretching the US forces to the breaking point, the cost will be huge for the US to flight the lagest army of the world with modern weapons, the US will also have financial difficuty to flight a war with China. Remember that it is flight the war in Iraq with debt credit partially from China. A war with China may just pull US down from the superpower status. The cost for China will be at least as big as that for the US, but Taiwan is the life-and-death issue for Chinese government, it is determined to flight if Taiwan goes indepedence.

“The American Air Force is starting to complain about it, so I read in the SCMP today”

I read that interview too. He is asking for money for new weapons, making the execute that Chinese weapons have now become better than the US weapons for the US troops in Okinawa. That’s a typical tactic.

“As for the American people, Zogby conducted a poll a few weeks ago that indicated strong support for Taiwan’s UN vote among average citizens from both sides of the political aisle.”

I believe that. The result is different if the question is whether the US should flight a war with China due to provocation from Taiwan. See poll result from Pew Research a few months, it is 70% vs 30%. People will hesitate if they learn their monthly montage will go up.

October 4, 2007 @ 1:37 pm | Comment

Thank you, Z. You have admitted that Iraq is the main reason the US does not give more support to Taiwan, rather than the fear of the cost of a war with China. Thanks for the backstep.

You have also failed to support the point that Americans do not support Taiwan. You have cited a poll that asks if the US will send troops to Country A in a war with Country B that Country A starts. You could insert any two countries into such a poll and get the same conclusion as Pew did. As I recall, this was the main critique of that poll at the time it was conducted. Can you actually cite a poll that says that Americans have little support for Taiwan? Remember, you are claiming that the tides of public opinion in the US are shifting against the island. Where is the evidence for this shift?

Sorry, your arguments are still unconvincing.

October 4, 2007 @ 2:32 pm | Comment

Thomas,

“Thank you, Z. You have admitted that Iraq is the main reason the US does not give more support to Taiwan, rather than the fear of the cost of a war with China. Thanks for the backstep”

Wait a second, I didn’t admit anything, and I actually think I am winning the arguments. But I have to say that so far, I found that you are not ideological person.

I still think it is too costly and unnecessary. I have already said why it is too costly in my previous reply to you. It is unnecessary because it is not about democracy and people’s right in Taiwan. Of course, some people will always say it is.

“You have also failed to support the point that Americans do not support Taiwan.”

I didn’t say Americans do not support Taiwan. Please point it out to me if I did. To the contrary, I had problem with Raj’s assertion that the US bullied Taiwan, I also said “please remember that the US has always have very good relationship with Taiwan.”.

What I said on this is very clear: the US support for Taiwan is not unconditional. And if Taiwan does something that is not in the US interest, it may be rebuked, and there is absolutely no need for people to feel sad and consider it an appeasement to China.

“Can you actually cite a poll that says that Americans have little support for Taiwan?”

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say Americans have little support for Taiwan.

“You have cited a poll that asks if the US will send troops to Country A in a war with Country B that Country A starts. You could insert any two countries into such a poll and get the same conclusion as Pew did.”

Maybe you are right on this one.

“Remember, you are claiming that the tides of public opinion in the US are shifting against the island. Where is the evidence for this shift?”

I don’t see any outcry over the US rebuke to Taiwan in the mainstream media (I didn’t know there was resolutions passed in the House supporting Taiwan; but I guess it was symbolic gesture and doesn’t carry much teeth. Some Taiwan friends in the do-nothing Congress do this all the time). Twenty year ago, it would have been considered as a huge issue. Today, more and more people, companies have their interest linked to China.

October 4, 2007 @ 5:30 pm | Comment

“Presidential candidates have been circumspect? That is a no brainer. That’s because AMBIGUITY IS THE STATED US POLICY when it comes to Taiwan and it has been for decades. ”

Thomas, very well said. I can quote a paper by a former US diplomat Harvey Feldman to support this point that you have correctly raised. As mentioned before, I’m not familiar with US politics. So I did a search after my last dialogue with z. And I came across this interesting and informative paper that Feldman penned for the Heritage Foundation. The paper traced various changes in US official policy towards Taiwan since the Reagan Administration signed a communiqué ·ith China in August 1982.

According to Feldman, the framework that guides US policy over Taiwan has remained practically the same in spite of closer economic ties with China. This framework, based on the Taiwan Relation Act and Reagan’s Six Assurances has been deliberately made ambiguous, as it states that the U.S. will take no position on the ultimate goal, whether independence, unification with China, or some other status. However, it is also comprehensive enough so that the U.S. can maintain a keen interest in the process, to make sure that it would be peaceful, it must not involve coercion, and it must have the consent of the parties on both sides of the Taiwan Strait.

One can disagree with this policy, or describe it as insufficient, or suggest ways of improving it (just like what Raj and I had been doing). But it is rather uninformed to suggest that the US will suddenly change her policy because of a fear of war with China.

This is the link to the paper: http://tinyurl.com/36ycdu

October 4, 2007 @ 5:40 pm | Comment

Cat,

“That’s because AMBIGUITY IS THE STATED US POLICY when it comes to Taiwan and it has been for decades. “.

I missed this one in my reply to Thomas, so I am glad you brought this up.

The policy ambiguity has its beauty. It works well if both sides at the Strait don’t go too far. But, now, Chen Sjui-bian is pushing it too hard, and the US government is struggling to maintain this ambiguity. So the US government and some high-profile politicians are giving out subtle messages on defensing Taiwan. It was recently reported, in a private interview, senator Clinton questioned the possibility of the US direct involvement in a war with China over Taiwan.

October 5, 2007 @ 1:00 am | Comment

Raj

U.S. credibility in Asia is based on its hard power expressed through military force and bilateral commitments, but recently the entire direction of its Asia policy has become muddled to the point where it has permanently lost the strategic initiative. American diplomats constantly speak of regaining that initiative in Asia, but by the 2008 Beijing Olympics, it will be extremely difficult for that to happen because of Fukuda’s ascenscion in Japan and continued stability in Korea. Indeed, America’s peacekeepers in the region are now more resented than welcomed; and I doubt that the residents of Okinawa would appreciate having a giant bulls-eye for Chinese ballistic missiles in their backyard–especially when that military base does not serve their interests at all (come on, does China really want to invade Japan?….)

Furthermore, you have to realize that increasing protectionism in the United States puts a further break on U.S. economic diplomacy in Asia, which makes any sort of strategic hedge against Chinese diplomacy that much more difficult.

So while Pomfret may have a point in saying that the Chinese elite is not as unified as it seems, he is incorrect in implying that U.S. pressure through Taiwan, Japan, India, and Australia could cause China to somehow “crack”. Why? Because while America could exert pressure, it would be counterproductive as China’s elite would simply rally around their current government if that happened–because any sort of levers that might pry them apart (such as target economic sanctions or energy resource denial) are not possible given America’s current diplomatic situation in Asia.

Raj, the U.S. was shown to be a paper tiger when it got its own elite fragmented over a low-level insurgency in Iraq.

One question for all the commenters here: is it in the interests of the United States to check, hedge against, or contain China? And why?

October 5, 2007 @ 4:38 am | Comment

It’s not in the U.S’s interests at all to be obnoxious, but the self-deluded imbecile with a missionary complex might believe their asinine meddling in international affairs is for the “greater good” and for freedom and democracy ™.

October 5, 2007 @ 5:35 am | Comment

Richard, is it really that I don’t know what I am talking about, or you simply don’t like what I am talking about? I have followed Pomfret’s stuff for a while and I can tell you he is no friend of the Chinese. Myabe staying in China for too long made him this way, I don’t know. I was once told, if you stay in another country for long, you will grow to hate it, I think it is quite true, a phenomenon confirmed by people like Pomfret and many other foreign expats.

I am a fanatic, by saying or doing what? Why don’t you refute what I wrote, point by point, can you? Show me how the Chinese have always blamed the other guy in a crisis; why the “Patriotic Education” in China is wrong; why the Chinese shouldn’t have reacted the way they did after the bombing of their embassy; why the Chinese shouldn’t have reacted the way they did when the American spyplane was closely spying on China, just 20 miles off the Chinese coast. Can you??

It’s true nationalism in China was encouraged by the government and the blind hatred toward Japan displayed by many young Chinese Fen Qing is simply astonishing, to say the least. It ‘s true the nationalism is getting kind of out of control in China. But what distinguishes China from other countries? In countries like the US, Japan, South Korea etc., you don’t have fanatics like those fanatics you have in China?

Richard, it is funny, the Chinese themselves would agree with you 100% on your second point, but American and other western “scholars” just wouldn’t give “China Threat” a rest. According to the Chinese government, China will become a “moderately developed country” by year 2080. They know they have a long way to go. They know they are not going to catch up with the US and the rest of the west any time soon. It’s the westerners who came up with this stupid notion that somehow China is the emerging superpower who is going to replace the US soon. With people like Bill Gertz, Steve Mosher, Ross Munroe and Peter Navarro telling us how evil and ambitious China is; that China is out to take over and destroy America, China is being painted and seen as your typical evil dragon. The Chinese themselves just want to have a decent life, develop their economy and raise their standard of living. Who cares who is going to be No.1? The US can keep the No.1 crown forever for all the Chinese care. I am sure you have heard of “Men Sheng Fa Da Cai”, have you?

October 5, 2007 @ 6:20 am | Comment

Snow,

Then you haven’t heard about folks like Bill Gertz, Steven Mosher, Ross Munroe and Peter Navarro, I guess. They made no distinction, at least making no effort to do so, between the CCP and the nation known as China.

Of course China is not beyond criticism and you can criticize it all you want. But to label it “evil overlord” and “terrorist” (in your own words) is not excessive, to say the least? Anybody telling me that the US is “evil” or “terrorist”, I would just brush it off and not take that person seriously. The same with China. Many Chinese frequently and vehemently lash out at the CCP for particular things it does, you can do the same. Labeling it “evil” does not help. You can try telling your Chinese friends (if you have any) that you think China is “evil” and is a “terrorist”, I doubt that you will find any Chinese, even among the most anti-CCP crowd, to agree with you.

Also, China is often subject to double standard and western hypocrisy when it is accused of doing certain things by those western countries (especially the US) who are doing the same thing. If this is not hypocrisy, I don’t know what is.

I just don’t get it: What is it about the west that makes them believe that it is their given duty to lecture other countries and people what they should do and how they should go about doing their business?

October 5, 2007 @ 6:32 am | Comment

pfeffer,

I agree with you that a lot of people who criticise “China” make the very stupid and unprogressive mistake of not looking into the matter very deeply and lumping together the communist party with China. I think most Westerners cannot understand that the party is soooo insidious that it crreps into every aspect of peoples live making it seem like it and the nation are one and the same. On that, you have a point.

“””””””””””Of course China is not beyond criticism and you can criticize it all you want. But to label it “evil overlord” and “terrorist” (in your own words) is not excessive, to say the least?”””””””””

I understand your point of view but I disagree with it. I do believe their is a very sinister reason why the CCP is obsessed with so called saving face ei, changing the facts to favour itself to the point of severe cersorship and brainwashing.

I believe the result of their campaigns includes you saying that to me. you know what I mean?

As for the US contending with the CCP in terms of evilness, youd have to show me some examples. You mentioned hypocrisy and I dont deny that it exists BUT, the crimes which I most despise the CCP for, the US has not committed. Thats not to say I believe the US to be some kind of innocent, just to say I wouldnt categorize it as evil since it hasnt done what the CCP has done….

What is it about “the West” that makes people criticise people…..? IT”S CALLED A CONSCIENCE. The CCP says for example that it’s crimes against Falun Gong practitioners are its ” internal affairs” What would the victims say? HEP, I’m sure. So if the CCP wants to do whatever it wants to innocent people, we should all kowtow to the golden slogan ‘internal affairs’?!

Also the rise of China is important to the whole world, do I have to tell you that? Hello, globalization, hello, communist parties have agenda’s and they are already carried out through this united front and that united front, these fronts for the CCP exist all over the world, hello, thousands of spies through north America and Australia….

Do you think we are maybe a little interested in whether the next “superpower” will consider most of the things we think, say and do subversive? I sure am. I know they wont quit pressuring human rights and slamming people for their spirituality etc. They just can’t friggin stop, look the Olympics was their chance to clean up and have everyone say “wow, you cleaned up, yay China” But instead out of their constant fear, they just cracked down harder.

Thanks for the interesting comments.

October 5, 2007 @ 8:58 am | Comment

As for the US contending with the CCP in terms of evilness, youd have to show me some examples.

Try reading up from the crackdown and butchery of Filipinos up until Iraq. Killing people is fair game as long as it lowers the prices on commodities like oil and sugar. America has been good at treating whoever it considers human well. That’s why they dance and sing all over the corpses of Native Americans, who were 100% of the population down to 2%. This is what Free Tibet imbeciles would call “genocide of the pure Tibetan/Amerind race”. Oh but I forgot, we have special rules for China. Only China can be bad and everything is China’s fault. Let’s boycott Chinese goods since they deal with Sudan! Hey, I have another bright idea, lets boycott Fair Trade products because African countries deal with the CCP! Wow, I’m a savvy, progressive, hip American liberal in his twenties! My $tarbuck$ was made from coffee beans picked by disadvantaged brown people, what did you do for the world today?

IT”S CALLED A CONSCIENCE.

lol, “the West” with a conscience. Good one. Can it.

October 5, 2007 @ 9:15 am | Comment

>>

The fact is, even those foreigners who have spent some time living in China, like yourself, often can’t or don’t make a distinction between the CCP and the PRC. It’s like considering the US government and the US essentially the same thing. They often say “the Chinese?” this, “the Chinese”? that. Who are “the Chinese”?

>>

So you are saying me having a problem with you labeling China as an “evil overlord” and “terrorist” means I have been brainwashed by the CCP? Wow. What are you saying? Those that have not been brainwashed by the CCP, those who have the so-called “conscience”, aka “the westerners” all agree, or at least should agree that China is an “evil overlord” and “terrorist” state??
What do you mean China is “evil”? Simply because it is an authoritarian state run by one party called the CCP? Simply because China is not democratic? Wow. So I guess you are saying, only when China gets rid of the CCP, only when it democratizes, it will no longer be evil? If that’s your argument, I absolutely can’t agree with you. No offense, but you struck me as a naﶥ, ignorant die-hard McCarthyite who sees communism, socialism and probably the social Left as evil. Sure the CCP has done its fair shares of bad things, it has screwed up many times since 1949, but it has also done many good things. Had it been all bad and evil, it would have been overthrown a long time ago. Recent surveys (the latest one I saw was from Pew) indicate that close to 80% of the Chinese are satisfied with the current situation and the direction in which China is heading, that says something, doesn’t it? If the CCP is evil like you believe it is, there can be only one explanation: The Chinese people are the stupidest, most ignorant people in the world, they can’t tell good from evil, right from wrong and they don’t know what’s good for them. Should outsiders like you be in any position to make that judgment and decision for them? Should you slap them in their face and tell them “Wake up you morons! The CCP is evil! You should get rid of it as soon as you can!”?

>>

Exactly what has the CCP done that made you think it is evil? By suppressing democracy? By wanting to hold on to its power? By censoring the media? May I ask what books you have read, where you got your information from?
Just to be clear, I don’t consider the US evil, like I said I think anybody who thinks the US is evil someone who can not be taken seriously. Nuts. Equally, “evil” is such a big and broad title that I don?t think China deserves either.

By the way, why is China a “terrorist” state? Do you think the US government and other western government should place China next to Syria and Iran as “terrorist states”?

>>

Having conscience is definitely a good thing. However, I believe that we should clean our own house before we ask others to clean theirs. If my own house is a total mess, who am I to tell you that you should clean up your mess?

Also, where do we draw the line? When countries interfere in other countries’ internal affairs in the name of “democracy”, “freedom” or whatever you can come up with, you toss sovereignty and international laws out the window. Do you think countries should invade one another for the so-called “greater good”?

>>

I understand what you are saying. The CCP, like any other dictatorship, is obsessed with holding onto its grip of power, it won’t let go. It is paranoid about losing control. There is certainly a long way to go for China in terms of pretty much everything, rule of law, democratization, getting a more balanced growth model, becoming a more developed country etc. Don’t expect China to be problem-free all of sudden, just because of the upcoming Olympic Games. (Speaking of the Olympic Games and Taiwan, the Chinese government has implied many times that it is willing to give up the Games should Taiwan formally declares independence.)

Out of curiosity, if China is so evil and bad, why did you come to China? Why do you stay in China? People with conscience, aka “the westerners” should all boycott the evil China and leave, I guess. Am I wrong?

October 5, 2007 @ 9:38 am | Comment

Sorry snow, for some reason the paragraphs taken from your post that were quoted did not show. You get the idea what I am trying to say. Thanks.

October 5, 2007 @ 9:58 am | Comment

Ok, thats lots of stuff… Would you consider going and checking back within this site and noting what I have already said? (I’ve been through this so many times although I usually dont get into the details cause we have a code of staying on topic to stick to ( ;)I want to answer all of your comments of course… There’s so much all at once…

Lemme just take a look see at the first two paragraphs for the moment.

I think you made a mistake, cause I have already agreed with you that a lot of people make the stupid mistake of lumping together the stupid party with the nation of China. I do not make that mistake. So then further on when you keep saying that I consider China a terrorist state and all that is based in your misunderstanding.

I certainly do not dislike China. But I do consider the CCP to be a terrorist organization. Above (or below) that though is the issue of whether the CCP is evil. First off, define evil, heres a good definition I got from wiki:

In ethics, evil refers to violations of an empathetic ideal which manifests as morally or ethically objectionable thought, speech, or action; behavior or thought which is hateful, cruel, violent, or devoid of conscience. Evil is sometimes defined as the opposite of good, or anything that opposes the force of life, for instance.

Yeah I think all people and all groups/nations or whatever have some degree of this bad thing, but I’d say compared to the CCP, everyone else is looking pretty good (and that means the CCP looks REALLY bad)

Okay man, I feel like Im gonna really start scaring people here if I keep talking like this.

By the way, I find that clean your own backyard thing is a big excuse to be a gimp and not care about anyone but whatever you choose to consider ‘your own backyard’. I learned in church ‘yu have more love if yu give it way’ ie, you dont have a limited supply of caring that you have to save for certain this or that occasion. Yeah there might be some poor people in ‘my backyard’ but that doesnt mean I should use that as an excuse to neglect the poor suffering opressed tortured innocent people being treated like shit in China. Also, to help out it’s not like you really have to do much, you just have to have a good heart and spread the love er whatever yu no.

Just my opinion, talk to you again then,

snow

October 5, 2007 @ 10:54 am | Comment

Ferins, stop goin off your rocker, by the way, no one said all Western people are good or different from Eastern people. I think Chinese people and singaporean etc, all people should have a conscience. It’s not about me or him or they or comparing and being defensive. i think you getting feisty and emotional is not progressive, what is it you wish for?

October 5, 2007 @ 12:14 pm | Comment

I certainly do not dislike China. But I do consider the CCP to be a terrorist organization.

What is your criteria? When it comes to death tolls, there are more “terrorist organizations” out there.

what is it you wish for?

Steady reform, no revolutionary spouting. That can’t be scaled back.

October 5, 2007 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

Snow, thanks for the response. Still you have not told us why you think the CCP is evil, a “terrorist organization”, and why everyone looks pretty good compared to the evil CCP. Do you think the Nazis were better than the CCP? How about Al-Qaeda?

You continued to argue that you don’t consider China and the CCP the same thing, yet how do you explain this “Or more accurately, China has become a sort of evil overlord, big brother, terrorist in many areas.”? China=the CCP, in your own words.

Again, why come to an evil country ruled by the worst of the worst, the CCP, a terrorist organization? Are you here in China to secretly organize anti-CCP rebellion? 🙂 Do you work for the CIA, NSA, the White House or the Australian security agency? 🙂 Just kidding.

October 7, 2007 @ 2:29 am | Comment

pfeffer:

Wow, you are really fired up about defending China at all costs. I was absolutely right that China is you’ve got left in life.

We are all in China to organize rebellion, mwooohahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaa!

October 7, 2007 @ 7:31 am | Comment

You got that right, nh. I am just as passionate about defending China as you are about bashing it.

Capiche?

October 7, 2007 @ 9:44 am | Comment

“Or more accurately, China has become a sort of evil overlord, big brother, terrorist in many areas.”? China=the CCP, in your own words.””””””””””

Right, yeah, thanks, I guess when it comes to “politics” in the world I also call the CCP China, cause in the world political stage China is indeed represented by the CCP, I can’t go so far as to say there is absolutely no relationship of course, but yeah in some cases as this the CCP is representing the country, if they were only claiming to represent themselves, I would care at all, they can go to heck, but the way they claim to and officially represent such a large and cool people is so freakin evil since they are evil sickos.

How are they evil sickos? I simply dont have any minutes for that right now, its not an answer that if I say simply that you will understand.

Do you understand the concept of evil? If you understand the concept of evil, then we can talk, but if you dont, then you could put evil itslef right next to the essence of goodness and you still wouldn’t know whats what.

If you want to compare to al-qaeda or Nazi party, we do that but if we don’t have the same understanding of the definition of evil, it might not be very good discussion.

Do you know the CCPs history of killing, brainwashing, torture, ruination of culture, overall corruption and scumminess all that kind of stuff?

Maybe you think they have just changed since you want to believe that they are good now, do you know about Falun Gong and recent evil stuff likek that.

So if you know the subject well, and you know what is evil , then we can discuss, or actually, if those things were in place, we wouldnt need to discuss cause you would already agree with me hah. ( :

Nanhey is against China as a whole but I’m not sure why. is that right Nanhey? Maybe he/you dont know that there are many people in China who despise the stupid party and that its supporters have been brainwashed and are unknowingly used as tools for the party. A lot of them unfortunatel also have no conscience and sell their souls to the party knowingly (of course not literally knowingly, who would do that knowingly!)

October 7, 2007 @ 12:24 pm | Comment

We are all in China to organize rebellion, mwooohahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaa!

Just to piss and moan and try to shape it in your corpulent images, of course.

October 7, 2007 @ 3:36 pm | Comment

history of killing

Every single country in the planet

October 7, 2007 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

“In ethics, evil refers to violations of an empathetic ideal which manifests as morally or ethically objectionable thought, speech, or action; behavior or thought which is hateful, cruel, violent, or devoid of conscience. Evil is sometimes defined as the opposite of good, or anything that opposes the force of life, for instance. ”

Snow, I suppose this is the definition of “evil” that you approve of? OK then, my question is, how does the CCP fit the criteria that others, including the Nazis and Al-Qaeda don’t? Also, do you think the self-proclaimed “champion of freedom and beacon of democracy” is not evil, if we stick to this definition?

Are you religious, by the way?

“Do you know the CCPs history of killing, brainwashing, torture, ruination of culture, overall corruption and scumminess all that kind of stuff?”

Yes the CCP has done a great deal of all of the above, no question about it. Do I think it is evil? No, I don’t because intentions matter. For example, the Brits were out to kill and subjugate people found in their various “colonies” and exploit everything they could get their dirty hands on. The Nazis were out to kill the Jews and enslave those countries it conquered. Al-Qaeda is out to murder civilians to terrorize. I don’t see the CCP in the same light. They have certainly screwed up many times and are responsible for the death of millions of Chinese, however it is not their intention to kill these people in the first place.

Also, everything you have mentioned above, the CCP has done it, so has the Brits, the Americans, the Japanese, the Mongols and everyone else. You still HAVE NOT EXPLAINED WHY THE CCP IS THE WORST OF THEM ALL.

Killing and ruination of culture? I’d argue the Mongols and the west (especially the British, the French, the Spaniards) were the worst so far in terms of numbers of people killed and culture ruined. Hands down they were the champions.

Brainwashing? Yes the CCP has been trying to brainwash the Chinese for more than 50 years and I have to say they are not very good at it. The west, on the other hand, is the true master, it has been churning out propaganda to brainwash people in the west without failure so far. If you believe only commies do propaganda, you are “too simple, too naive”.

Torture? What the CCP did to the Falun Gong people was not right, no question about it. But tell me, which country does not torture? Why is the CCP is the worst?

Corruption and scumminess? If having corruption makes a country evil, I must say every single country in this world is evil. Of course you can enlighten me by listing some countries where no corruption exists. Scumminess is a subjective term which could different things to different people.

Selling their souls to the party? Again I bring it to you attention that according to recent survey done by PEW, close to 80% of the Chinese are satisfied with the current situation and the direction in which China is heading. Are you saying these people were lying? Since you are in China (so you claimed), can you tell us what your impression is, are most people satisifed or not? Are most people feeling positive toward their future or negative?

And why, why do you stay in China if you can’t stand the CCP, if you believe this is the all-time worst, the evil terrorist country known as China? Maybe you are here to give the Chinese hope? You are a missionary?

October 8, 2007 @ 3:03 am | Comment

@Pffefer
“Yes the CCP has done a great deal of all of the above, no question about it. Do I think it is evil? No, I don’t because intentions matter. For example, the Brits were out to kill and subjugate people found in their various “colonies” and exploit everything they could get their dirty hands on. The Nazis were out to kill the Jews and enslave those countries it conquered. Al-Qaeda is out to murder civilians to terrorize. I don’t see the CCP in the same light. They have certainly screwed up many times and are responsible for the death of millions of Chinese, however it is not their intention to kill these people in the first place.”

I think your defence of the CCP is here is very biased. How do you know about whether there is “intention”? From the facts, it was very clear that Mao started the Cultural Revolution with the intention to keep himself in power, having been discredited by the massive failure of the Great Leap Forward. From 1966 onwards, violence by the Red Guards brought China to the brink of collapse and civil war. Did Mao stop it? No. That’s because the leftist violence was devouring his “rightist” opponents in control of the party. Never mind that millions of lives were ruined and lost. Your so-called “unintentional” shows that you are just a paid agent to whitewash and distort history.

And your comparison with the British imperialists, Nazis and Al-Qaeda. If you used them as standards for comparison, then it was really unfortunate. The CCP is a Chinese party-state, it is supposed to look after the welfare of the Chinese people. Imperialists, Nazis and terrorists are not your domestic leaders. It is disgusting when a government used state terror against its own people, the very same people it is supposed to protect. It’s like rape is already a disgusting crime, it’s more disgusting when a biological father rape his own daughter. Get it?

Pls think twice before you used this type of fallacious argument. Its disgraceful and irksome.

October 8, 2007 @ 6:53 pm | Comment

@Pffefer
“Yes the CCP has done a great deal of all of the above, no question about it. Do I think it is evil? No, I don’t because intentions matter. For example, the Brits were out to kill and subjugate people found in their various “colonies” and exploit everything they could get their dirty hands on. The Nazis were out to kill the Jews and enslave those countries it conquered. Al-Qaeda is out to murder civilians to terrorize. I don’t see the CCP in the same light. They have certainly screwed up many times and are responsible for the death of millions of Chinese, however it is not their intention to kill these people in the first place.”

I think your defence of the CCP is here is very biased. How do you know about whether there is “intention”? From the facts, it was very clear that Mao started the Cultural Revolution with the intention to keep himself in power, having been discredited by the massive failure of the Great Leap Forward. From 1966 onwards, violence by the Red Guards brought China to the brink of collapse and civil war. Did Mao stop it? No. That’s because the leftist violence was devouring his “rightist” opponents in control of the party. Never mind that millions of lives were ruined and lost. Your so-called “unintentional” shows that you are just a paid agent to whitewash and distort history.

And your comparison with the British imperialists, Nazis and Al-Qaeda. If you used them as standards for comparison, then it was really unfortunate. The CCP is a Chinese party-state, it is supposed to look after the welfare of the Chinese people. Imperialists, Nazis and terrorists are not your domestic leaders. It is disgusting when a government used state terror against its own people, the very same people it is supposed to protect. It’s like rape is already a disgusting crime, it’s more disgusting when a biological father rape his own daughter. Get it?

Pls think twice before you used this type of fallacious argument. Its disgraceful and irksome.

October 8, 2007 @ 6:53 pm | Comment

@Pffefer
“Brainwashing? Yes the CCP has been trying to brainwash the Chinese for more than 50 years and I have to say they are not very good at it. The west, on the other hand, is the true master, it has been churning out propaganda to brainwash people in the west without failure so far. If you believe only commies do propaganda, you are “too simple, too naive”.

It’s clear that you are into the knee-jerk “BUT the West did it too!” type of protest. Let me tell you the difference. The CCP indoctrinated the people systematically through censorship, propaganda, Internet, arrests and blocking alternative avenues of news and information. Someone who expresses different views is at the mercy of arrest by the Ministry of Public Security and the principle of habeas corpus and freedom of expression is alien in Communist China. In the West, the Hollywood may be seem as propaganda, and let’s assume that the West does brainwash people too. But the difference is, you are free as an individual to express dissenting views and repudiate and protest against the view of the government. Political pluralism in the West ensures that there is nothing the government can do to brainwash the people. In China, if you challenge official propaganda, you probably find yourself behind the fences.

Those comments are what i called “pure imbecility”.

October 8, 2007 @ 7:04 pm | Comment

@Pffefer
“Killing and ruination of culture? I’d argue the Mongols and the west (especially the British, the French, the Spaniards) were the worst so far in terms of numbers of people killed and culture ruined. Hands down they were the champions.”

Those invaders destroyed other people’s culture and were of course evil. BUT the CCP, especially during the Cultural Revolution, destroyed its OWN people’s culture and heritage. The key word here is “OWN”. What can be worse than doing harm to your own civilization and heritage? The city walls of Beijing were gone because the Red Guards deemed it as “the Four Olds”. And destroying the “Four Olds” was a war declared by the communists against its very own Chinese culture and heritage. Chinese people destroying their very own heritage. What can be more foolish than that?

October 8, 2007 @ 7:12 pm | Comment

“I think your defence of the CCP is here is very biased. How do you know about whether there is “intention”? From the facts, it was very clear that Mao started the Cultural Revolution with the intention to keep himself in power, having been discredited by the massive failure of the Great Leap Forward. From 1966 onwards, violence by the Red Guards brought China to the brink of collapse and civil war. Did Mao stop it? No. That’s because the leftist violence was devouring his “rightist” opponents in control of the party. Never mind that millions of lives were ruined and lost. Your so-called “unintentional” shows that you are just a paid agent to whitewash and distort history.”

OK, during what period did most of the Chinese that were allegedly killed by the CCP died? GLF or CR? Even you admitted that GLF was a “failure”. Yes one can argue that CR was started in a way to preserve his power, but can you say it was started with a purpose of terrorizing the population and killing as many people as possible? If you say so, I demand to see some proof.

Your single-mindedness and hysterical accusation (that I am a paid agent) really say a lot about where you are coming from. You are just as brainwashed as I am.

“And your comparison with the British imperialists, Nazis and Al-Qaeda. If you used them as standards for comparison, then it was really unfortunate. The CCP is a Chinese party-state, it is supposed to look after the welfare of the Chinese people. Imperialists, Nazis and terrorists are not your domestic leaders. It is disgusting when a government used state terror against its own people, the very same people it is supposed to protect. It’s like rape is already a disgusting crime, it’s more disgusting when a biological father rape his own daughter. Get it?”

No, I don’t get it. What are you saying here? You’d rather see foreigners invade your country, kill and enslave your people than witness your own government mistreating your people? If that’s what you are saying, I absolutely can’t agree. In my opinion, mentioning the CCP in the same line with the Brits, the Nazis and Al-Qaeda is a great insult to the CCP. Again you have to look at their intentions. How is it ever possible for anyone, anyone to believe that the CCP is actually worse than the British, the Nazis and Al-Qaeda?? Following your line of thinking, I am starting to think you are a paid agent working for XXX.

I am not defending the CCP here, the CCP has done many bad things as well as many good things. Let history be the judge. Let the Chinese themselves be the judge. I am having a problem with snow saying the CCP is the evil and furthermore it is the worst of them all. Who are you, some foreign expat to make such an hasty and ridiculous conclusion? Again, if you are right, then the Chinese people must be wrong and they have to be the stupidest, most ignorant people in the world. Go slap them and slap them hard.

“It’s clear that you are into the knee-jerk “BUT the West did it too!” type of protest. Let me tell you the difference. The CCP indoctrinated the people systematically through censorship, propaganda, Internet, arrests and blocking alternative avenues of news and information. Someone who expresses different views is at the mercy of arrest by the Ministry of Public Security and the principle of habeas corpus and freedom of expression is alien in Communist China. In the West, the Hollywood may be seem as propaganda, and let’s assume that the West does brainwash people too. But the difference is, you are free as an individual to express dissenting views and repudiate and protest against the view of the government. Political pluralism in the West ensures that there is nothing the government can do to brainwash the people. In China, if you challenge official propaganda, you probably find yourself behind the fences.
Those comments are what i called “pure imbecility”.”

Call it whatever you want. Hollywood? Did anybody mention Hollywood? Did I? This is the typical defense a westerner or a pro-western person comes up with, that the west allows different views to be expressed. Sure it is true. But the mainstream western media, how pluralistic are they really? I mean I can start a blog or a newspaper or a magazine expressing the fringe, not-so-popular views, what are my chances of survival? And how many people will actually read my stuff and be influenced by it? The mainstream media, supported by corporate America, churn out the same old stuff all the time, which only reinforce people’s predisposed opinions about certain things. China? Oh, the big bad wolf who is trying to poison our babies. When are you bombarded with the same old @#$% all the time, you think you will be smart enough to think independently? In this regard, people in the west are not that different from the people in China. Actually I believe they are more prone to believe the stuff carried by the (mainstream) media because many of them naively believe that they are telling the truth since they are not controlled by the government.

And please (I assume you have been to China), don’t give the CCP too much credit, they are not that powerful, they don’t and can’t control anybody. Like I said before, many Chinese are so fed up with the CCP propaganda that they developed this knee-jerk reaction of rejecting and dismissing everything coming from the official media outlets, such as Xinhua. “Xinhua and others always say the party is great, China is doing well. I don’t think so. I don’t trust them.” is a typical reaction I get from people. Gosh, you must believe the Chinese are indeed the stupidest people in the world.

I am not even mentioning pure propaganda outlets such as VOA, RFA and RFE etc. If you don’t know what American or western propaganda is, go find out yourself.

“Those invaders destroyed other people’s culture and were of course evil. BUT the CCP, especially during the Cultural Revolution, destroyed its OWN people’s culture and heritage. The key word here is “OWN”. What can be worse than doing harm to your own civilization and heritage? The city walls of Beijing were gone because the Red Guards deemed it as “the Four Olds”. And destroying the “Four Olds” was a war declared by the communists against its very own Chinese culture and heritage. Chinese people destroying their very own heritage. What can be more foolish than that? ”

It was indeed foolish, very stupid and tragic. But I wouldn’t call the CCP evil just because of that. You need to see the bigger picture: The communists were not alone in believing that the Chinese had to part with the old, their traditions and culture and everything in order to be modern and strong. Dr. Sun and many Chinese revolutionaries that walked before and after him had similar belief, that is, China is weak, China is being taken advantage of by foreigners because China holds onto its traditions and can’t adopt and adapt, something like that. Everybody thought westernization was the way (look at Japan). Now, not just the CCP, but average Chinese starts to realize what a big mistake it was to ditch their traditions and cultures, you know those things that made them Chinese. Some people argue that the revival of traditional culture and Confucianism etc. is done and supported by the CCP only to strengthen its power and control. I don’t think so. I see genuine interest in old, traditional Chinese culture, literature and other things in the average joes.

October 9, 2007 @ 6:47 am | Comment

Pffefer, why dont you read the nine commentaries on the communist party. if you have heard such and such about it and you dont want to read it because of hearsay, that means you are for sure brainwashed. Just read it and let me know what you think.

October 9, 2007 @ 9:04 am | Comment

Snow, of course I have heard about it, the infamous book coming out of FLG’s propaganda department, known as “Jiu Ping” in Mandarin. Why should I bother to read pure propaganda? Like how I dissed Jiang’s “four represents”, I don’t need to waste my time on something this stupid.

If you are with the FLG, then I will have nothing else to say. By the way, I did read “Master Li”‘s crappy book “Zhuan Fa Lun”, it is a load of @#$%.

October 9, 2007 @ 9:27 am | Comment

Snow, just to be clear:

Torture is bad. Despite the fact that I detest “Master Li” and his garbage, I think what the Chinese government did to FLG practitioners was horrible and completely inexcusable.

Ask your non-FLG Chinese friends (if you have any) or Chinese around you how they view FLG, “Jiu Ping” and the CCP. Come back and tell me what the majority view is.

October 9, 2007 @ 9:34 am | Comment

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