Massacre? What massacre?

If you read one blog post today, be sure to make it this one.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 46 Comments

Here’s an excellent article about TAM from Columbia School of Journalism:

http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/98/5/tiananmen.asp

Also, the PBS Frontline segment presented the Chinese government’s casualty figure of 250 dead. I don’t know if you ever researched this, but this figure is actually in-line with our NSA estimate:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/

May 21, 2007 @ 6:30 pm | Comment

Hi Charles. Did you read the post by Will? Even if it was 10 people it’s a massacre. There is no claim there that it was a big number. I am not saying it was any more than 250 (though I’ve read first-hand accounts that indicate it may have been more; I don’t know).

Tell us, what did you find most interesting about Will’s post, or that you most took issue with? Again, did you read it?

I don’t want to get into a discussion here about the TSM. We’ve been through it so many times, and I think most of us agree the “massacre of thousands of students inside the square” is a myth, and we all agree the students were no angels and we all agree at least some of the violence came from the seething crowds who took their rage out on soldiers. All of that said, a massacre is a massacre. Read Will’s post. I mean, really read it. And note his headline. It’s all about words. Like, when is a massacre not a massacre? Get it?

May 21, 2007 @ 6:59 pm | Comment

There was a topic about the CR. Would China have been better off if the leaders then would have crackdowned on the red guards as in 1989, and put Mao Zedong under house detention? There is a difference between maverick patriots and traiterous scum. I believe some of the ‘students’ belonged to the latter category. Certainly, some belonged to the first. Those belonging to the first category have become successful businesspeople nowadays in China.

May 21, 2007 @ 7:20 pm | Comment

zhj, it’s probably not so black and white. I think many of the students were sincere, while others were reckless and ambitious, loving the media attention and displaying a ruthlessness and lust for power that eerily mirrored the worst qualities of those they were protesting against. But I wouldn’t label them as “traitorous scum.” Some were foolish, perhaps, and idealistic. And they were disbanding and packing up. There was no need for bloodshed.

May 21, 2007 @ 7:45 pm | Comment

“Those belonging to the first category have become successful businesspeople nowadays in China.”

If they want to hold on to their success they have no choice but to publicly tow the party line. Privately, I doubt they dismiss the cold-blooded murder of that night so readily.

The CCP could make the smartest play of their dubious existence by acknowledging and apologising for their grave error 18 years ago. But they’re not that smart, so it won’t happen.

Instead, it will be left to western journalists and brave Chinese truth-seekers to bring this issue front and centre during Beijing 2008.

May 22, 2007 @ 12:05 am | Comment

>> Even if it was 10 people it’s a massacre.

Case in point: one of the most notorious massacres in American history was the Boston Massacre. How many people were killed? Uh, 5.

Maybe the British called it the “Boston Incident” at the time.

May 22, 2007 @ 1:40 am | Comment

Richard,

Those people (whoever they might be) should have charged the Chinese government manslaughter (“crackdown”) instead of first degree murder (“massacre”). Now it’s like, half way thru the trial, we found out some of the accusations were wrong. The defense lawyer of the CCP (Ma Lik) made his argument to the jury : “The evidence presented by the prosecution is proven tainted and facts don’t add up, it’s not credible and should be discarded, therefore the charge (i.e. first degree murder) should be dismissed.” And the prosecutor, is like, “Well, we might have fucked up the evidence, but that doesn’t matter, the defense is playing with words, a massacre is still a massacre.” …

Get the picture? Do you think the prosecution has a chance of winning the case?

I doubt it.

May 22, 2007 @ 3:28 am | Comment

“The CCP could make the smartest play of their dubious existence by acknowledging and apologising for their grave error 18 years ago. But they’re not that smart, so it won’t happen.”

I don’t think it’d do much for them.

May 22, 2007 @ 6:40 am | Comment

:::I don’t want to get into a discussion here about the TSM. We’ve been through it so many times, and I think most of us agree the “massacre of thousands of students inside the square” is a myth:::

Well even in ImageThief’s excerpt from Pomfret’s book, you’ll see that the killing started way outside Tiananmen Square and as we’ve gone through before, the killing just continued straight up Changan all of the way to the Square.

The CCP loved that the foreign press was so focussed “Inside the Square”, so they could kill at will outside the square and not have those corpses included in their “Crackdown totals”.

And to compare the students in and out of the Square to Red Guards is just looney tunes. Is Li Peng complaining now that Zhao Ziyang opened the gates of Zhongnanhai for these “traitorous scum” to come “struggle” with Li Peng in his home again and again?

The Li Pengs and Jiang Zemins had no interest in an accommodating unified CCP leadership when they purged Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang, but definitely want that when the careers of their proteges are on the line.

May 22, 2007 @ 9:46 am | Comment

I think that the past few hundred years of economic development prove that the British made the right choice in the “Boston Incident.”

May 22, 2007 @ 11:00 am | Comment

>

This post wants to express a unique opinion, and that opinion is, the students protesters during the June 4th anti-revolutionary riot were suffering from mass pscyhosis. And the entire incident was simply a severe episode of mass psychosis. The CCP’s actions during the incident can be seen as a treatment, helping the students recover from their psychotic states.

China in the 80′s was in a state of irrationality. The reform and opening up was at a crossroad, the 80′s university students at the time were induced into pyschotic mental states due to the unique nature of China’s society back then. Here I’ll present some evidence of the students’ severe illness.

Some of you may have heard Ding Zilin, a Chinese college professor who gained her fame through the death of her 19 year old son during the riot.

The night her son was killed, martial law was already given. Now, what is the meaning of martial law? It means the enitre city will be under military discipline, and will resemble a warzone, and any civillian who disobeys the soldiers who are enforcing the martial law will be killed and the soldiers will not be responsible for it. This is the essence of martial law. I am sure Ding Zilin’s son was aware of this nature of martial law. Yet, knowing about martial law, and knowing the severe danger he migth be in if he were to violate it, he delibrately went to the streets and deliberately disobeyed the soldier. We can only conclude two possible things from this:

1) Her son was trying to seek suicide, perhaps “suicde by cop”.
2) Her son was suffering from massive delusion, and therefore a victim of pyschosis.

In any case, his death can be entirely blamed on himself and his family.

Using this example as a starting point, we can conclude that most of the students during the riot were victims of mass psychosis. Just think about those, these 19-20 year olds with barely enough pubic hair wanted to sit down across the table with state leaders, people 30,40,50 years their senior, and talk as if they are equal parties. If you watched the “dialog” between the student leader Wuer Kaixi and Li Peng, you’ll easily see that Wuer Kaixi talks as if he is lecturing a student. Putting aside the necessary respect one must pay to a state leader, what about the necessary courtesy one pays when talking to an elder? Not only that, the students gave ultimatums, gave demands, and shouted loudly during the dialog, as if they are the state leaders. If this behavior is not psychotic behavior, what is psychotic behavior?

Now, a lot of people using the word “massacre” to describe CCP’s actions during the incident. Let’s examin this. First, what is a “massacre”? Massacre is, from an engineering viewpoint, an act that removes the right to survival of another being, using violent means, when that being had no means of resisting. During the June 4th incident, the PLA repeatedly warned the students and asked them to leave the Square, and the students massively occupied the most important square in the most important city in China, for several months. They refused the warnings given by the CCP to leave the square. Therefore, you cannot say they had no choice, they had a choice to leave the square everyday for several months. It’s not like the CCP blockaded the square and trapped the students to plan their murder. Furthermore, the students used rocks, blockades, etc to impeded the enforcements of martial law, and even used fire to burn the soldiers. What happens in the USA, if you try to throw a burning object at a police officer?

Another interesting question is, how come none of the leaders of the riot was killed? Wan Dan, Chai Ling, Wuer Kaixi, Liu xiaobo, etc. They are all alive and well and living very rich lives in the USA. While the innocent students who naively believed them had to die on the square. Are those student leaders not the primary culprits in their deaths? Chai Ling, when interviewed by Western jounalists during the incident, famously said, “Bloodshed is good, we want bloodshed, the more blood the better, only when there’s bloodshed will we receive attention”. Of course she was not talking about her own blood. She could be another ruthless politician if she had the chance.

It’s pretty clear to me that this June 4th incident was a severe episode of mass psychosis of the students. They were crazy enough to go against the machinery of the state.

Therefore, the lesson for the June 4th incident is that we need to increase funding for the mental health of our students and teenagers, and perhaps more research on drugs in treating cases of pyschosis.

Also, as the 18th anniversity of the June 4th incident nears, I’d like to thank all the PLA soliders who helped put down the riot, helped the students recover from their illness, and saved the country from sinking to an abyss.

May 22, 2007 @ 11:20 am | Comment

Richard, I agree with you even one is one too many.

However, I wonder if our own government says Kent State is an “incident” or massacre?

BTW, I had no idea how many people were massacred at Kent State until an obsure report recently mentioned new “order to fire” evidence.

It seems we still have victims Kent State crying injustice, insufficient investigation, government cover-up.

Just curious, what’s everyone’s recollection on the casualty count? Don’t Google.

May 22, 2007 @ 11:24 am | Comment

Here’s what a professor at Kent State wrote about the shooting – funny he didn’t use the word “massacre”.

BTW, just for clarity, I think PKD is the exception here. Goto search.blogger.com and look up TAM – the myth of thousands of students in tents crushed by tanks, or the Chinese government did not investigate, announce reasonable casualty figure, persist.

While some in America are bent on perpetuating the myth, others are merely indoctrinated with them being the truth.

This is what I see as our collective understanding of TAM.

As 6/4 is nearing, no doubt the emotionally satisfying, static and ignorant view of “red China” will again be reinforced by our “official narrative”, readying yet another enemy for our fascist rally cry – when the time comes.

May 22, 2007 @ 11:42 am | Comment

There is little comparison between Kent State and Tiananmen, despite the many attempts to draw parallels. Kent State was a national trauma, launching countless investigations, books, news pieces, etc., and it remains an open wound even today. Four students were killed, a small fraction of the size of the TSM, and it indeed was referred to as the Kent State Massacre. The national guard were not sent in with orders to shoot. Some guardsmen felt threatened by students wielding stones, rightly or wrongly. It was not a pre-meditated crackdown but a gross misjudgement that ended in tragedy. It was front-page news for months. You needn’t be a genius to see how very different it was from TS. This is another of those dreary comparisons used to justify anything the CCP does by pointing to a parallel event in the US, even if the “parallel” turn out to be hopelessly flawed.

Math, if anyone here is qualified to talk about mass psychosis, it’s you.

May 22, 2007 @ 12:10 pm | Comment

Richard, I’m not math. BTW what happened to “even one is one too many”?

Can you come up with any official US government reference that use the term “massacre”?

This is the gripe about the Chinese givernment right?

May 22, 2007 @ 12:15 pm | Comment

Richard, here’s the news on “order to shoot” I cited earlier:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Kent+State+order+shoot

May 22, 2007 @ 12:20 pm | Comment

Richard, here’s what the FIB investigation of KSM says:

foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/kentstat.htm

“Kent State anti-war students’ revolt”

May 22, 2007 @ 12:26 pm | Comment

Charles, you are a piece of work. Once again you make arguments without reading. I said above, “The national guard were not sent in with orders to shoot.” Repeat: They were not sent in with orders to shoot. Do you understand the difference between being sent in with orders to shoot, and being ordered to shoot when you are perceived to be in harm’s way? Now, I don’t believe they should have opened fire and I protested this grotesque episode in America’s history. But try to get the distinction.

Here’s the Kent State order, given when students throwing rocks were perceived to be threatening the guardsmen:

The command, as Alan Canfora heard it on a 37-year-old audio recording recently discovered in a government archive, appeared to leave no room for doubt. “Right here. Get set. Point. Fire.” Then came 13 seconds of gunfire.

To me, this was an awful and unforgivable crime. But when you equate this with TS, you are indulging in fantasy. I am not saying the National Guard was right or justified. But they were not brought in to shoot people. It was a tragic and stupid error and a huge price was paid. Unlike in China, where Li Peng was honored and promoted for his efficiency.

May 22, 2007 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

Richard, was the PLA ordered to shoot? Or they too were given orders to defend themselves?

The complaint from Will was the Chinese government not using the term “massacre” – now again can you find any US government document admiting KSM was in fact a “massacre”?

Or you are the one rationalizing events in order to justify our own government saying “gee, we weren’t *hell bent* on shooting people”.

A little introspection is all I ask.

May 22, 2007 @ 12:39 pm | Comment

Richard,

TS and Kent State are exactly the same in nature: Student protested and later broke the law, the military (national guard) was called in to restore order, tragedy happened. There were no concrete evidence of “order to shoot” in both incidents.

The only difference is that in the US there is freedom of press, I’ll give you that.

The CCP did not use Kent State in their propaganda. I didn’t hear about it until I came the the states. An American co-worker of mine told me about it during a conversation about TS (after he found out I was in Beijing in 1989)

May 22, 2007 @ 12:44 pm | Comment

Richard, not unlike American’s discussion re KS, here are some discussion by Chinese that are outside of Chinese government’s “official narrative” of TAM:

http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%CC%EC%B0%B2%C3%C5+89&cl=3

linklink

May 22, 2007 @ 1:02 pm | Comment

Charles, I’ve done lots of introspection on Kent State, and have loudly condemned the killings. Of course, the Chinese were not given the luxury of introspection and analysis, as the government instantly cut off all the news on the “incident,” firing hundreds of reporters and cleansing the record, a tradition that continues to this day.

I think you know about the Chinese army’s decision to bring in hardened soldiers from far outside Beijing to end the demonstrations. Go and read Will’s post again, especially the quote from Pomfret’s book, and continue with your comparison if it makes you feel comfortable.

I’ve read enough eyewitness testimony of both massacres to condemn them both. But I also see clear lines of distinction. And yes, I do believe the PLA soldiers were brought in to end the demonstrations by force and were in advance given a license to kill.

Let’s go back to the Pomfret quote Will cites:

The soldiers began to fire live ammunition low into the crowd, hitting people in the stomach and legs. The night, balmy with a calm breeze, crackled with automatic gunfire. People fled in all directions. Some returned, rocks in hand. Armored personnel carriers rolled onto the bridge and began cutting the busses aside, cutting a path into the inner city…I was standing about one hundred feet north of the intersection. A crowd surrounded me and began yelling: “They are shooting us! They are shooting us! They are shooting the people!” I saw in their eyes a wild insistence. “You must report this to the world,” yelled one man. Then the bullets zinged in our direction. I found what I took to be relative safety by lying flat on the asphalt, pinned up against a curb. Others ran. I remember thinking they must be crazy. As I lay on the ground with my cheek against the roadbed, I saw several demonstrators fall. The armored personnel carriers had done their work, ramming a channel through the burning busses. Then came the troop trucks, fifty of them rolling through the crumpled roadblock. Random gunfire killed a housekeeper on the fourteenth floor of one building. Another woman was wounded as she looked out of an eighth-floor window.

The comparison with Kent State rings hollow. Both bad acts, different in scale, intent and context. But Charles, this is just your usual racket. Look at your comment to the post below about my trainer not getting paid by his gym., Here’s your comment:

Now he knows what the Enron employees felt like… Workers show up to emptied office was rampant in the 80′s in America.

This ain’t a China thing.

To Charles, you can always mitigate an atrocity in China by finding a parallel event in the US, no matter how far you have to go in stretching the facts. Ken Lay was sentenced to prison in the greatest corporate scandal in US history. No one’s going to jail at my gym, and no one will even lift an eyebrow, as it’s an everyday occurrence here. Enron generated books, TV documentaries and even a full-length movie, and is still the poster child for corrupt US businesses. And crusading journalists helped tear the house of cards down, starting with an article in Fortune magazine. In China, there’s nary a peep from the media about the fucking over of workers. And yet Charles sees a distinct parallel, and he always will. Same argument, no matter what the thread. “America did it too.”

May 22, 2007 @ 1:18 pm | Comment

Richard, the parallel is weither our own government behaved like the Chinese government and refuse to use the term “massacre” – have you found any government docuemnt where US government admitted KS is a massacre?

Are the national guards not “hardened”? Or is such demonization strictly reserved for the Chinese?

Are the live bullets the national guards carried not a license to kill?

Come on, I already given you two Baidu search on the Chinese people’s discussion of TAM, outside the Chinese government’s official version. Many are in fact critical of the government.

I also found a singer Li Ze, lamenting about the tragic even in his country…

So much for your indictment on their introspection and analysis. I for one have had frank discussion about TAM when I visited China.

May 22, 2007 @ 1:50 pm | Comment

Richard, here’s a song titled “Mr. FanFao” by a Chinese singer name Li Ze. It is about TAM. He refered to it as “forgotten tragedy”:

Will reminded me about “Ohio”, so I looked – appearantly they too have their own “Ohio”…

I hope you will reexamine your feeling about the Chinese people’s lack of introspection and analysis.

May 22, 2007 @ 2:05 pm | Comment

@charles liu

Just another party apologist who’s on the payroll. I challenge you to deny you’re a member of the CCP.

Your agenda is quite clear: use any means to move the debate away from issues that shame your paymasters. It’s not strictly your fault, of course. Indoctrination, not only massacres, make victims of Chinese citizens.

May 22, 2007 @ 2:29 pm | Comment

Correction – The song about TAM by Li Zhe is titled “The Square”:

“Mr. Vangoh” was the hit song from the album. “The Square” where Li lamented about his country’s “forgotten tragedy” sampled sound of bullets and crying mothers from TAM.

Here’s a blog entry about it:

=

我只想说说我喜欢《广场》这首歌的原因,
I would like to talk about why I like “The Square”

我开始听这首歌的时候还没听清楚里面的歌词
In the beginning I couldn’t make out the lyrics clearly

(他的很多歌都给我这种感觉),而当我看到歌词的时候我兴奋了,同时又震惊了。
(many of his song are like this), however when I read the lyrics I became excited, and at the same time shocked.

如今这个广场是我的坟墓
Now this square is my grave
这个歌声将来是你的挽歌
This song will be your [obituary?]
你会被教育成一个坏人
You will be turned into a bad person
见死不救吃喝拉撒的动物
An animal without compassion, only eat dring shit

请你不要相信他的爱情
Don’t believe its romanticism
你看黎明还没有来临
Wait for the news after dawn
请你不要相信他的关心
Don’t believe its caring
他的手枪正瞄准你的胸膛
It’s gun is squarely aimed at your chest

李志的《广场》写的就是天安门前的广场,不是现在的
Le Ze’s “The Square” is about the square in front of Tiananmen, not today’s

广场,而是八九年的那个广场。全世界的人民都知道那一
square, but 98′s square. The whole world knows what happened

年在这个广场上发生了什么事情,全世界的人民也都知道
at the squar that year, the world’s people also know

到底孰对孰错,全世界的人民更知道是谁在掩盖历史和事
who’s right or wrong, the world’s people also know who’s covering up historical facts

实,当然历史的事情还是等着历史去证明吧!李志在这首
of course history will prove itself! Li Ze told in his

歌里告诉了大家一个快要被年轻一代的记忆忘却的历史真相.
song a history that is nearly forgotten by the younger generation

从刚开始的独白,到中间沧桑又悲伤的嗓音,再到曲末丁子
From his confession, to the hoarsed saddened voice in the middle, to the end of the song where

霖女示的一段话.其中还时不时地夹杂着纪录片《天安
Mrs. Ding ZeLing’s dialogue, intermixed with documentary of Tiananmen’s

门》里面的叫喊声、子弹声、救护车的呼啸声
shouting, bullets, ambulance’s siren

You tell me if this is China’s “Ohio”.

May 22, 2007 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

>>the parallel is weither our own government behaved like the Chinese government and refuse to use the term “massacre”

No one cares if there is a parallel in some other country. That is irrelevant. If you point out some atrocity committed by the Japanese government in Japan and someone “answers” by pointing out an atrocity carried out by the French government in France, what does that prove? Oh, yeah, nothing. Blaming the French government doesn’t somehow expatiate the guilt of the Japanese government. (And this is assuming there even is a parallel in the first place, which there really isn’t in this case).

This is exactly what you are doing. Over and over and over.

May 22, 2007 @ 2:42 pm | Comment

@Stuart

I’ll take your challange – I am not a member of the CCP. I have never been a citizen of the PRC.

It’s a standard retort to look at someone’s last name and jump to conclusion, isn’t it? Where’s you proof?

I live in Seattle, and will meet you in person to settle your baseless accusation against me.

If you are too chicken @#$# to come to Seattle, at least be a man and apologize.

May 22, 2007 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

Charles, how did this suddenly become a discussion of whether the US government officially refers to Kent State as a “massacre”? How far do you want to parse your silly argument? Who cares what the US government calls it? How do you know they don’t call it a massacre? Shit, it happened 40 years ago, so how many documents does the US government put out nowadays about the Kent State massacre? This may take the cake for silly arguments. And here’s what you’re missing: We the people are free to call it whatever we choose. The phrase “Kent State massacre” is ingrained in the US conscience and it has never been censored or forbidden. No one is arguing today that we should not call it a massacre, while in Beijing an official is indeed arguing that TS should not be called a massacre. There’s your parallel.

Seriously, this may be one of the most tortured, preposterous arguments I’ve ever seen on this site. Congratulations. I don’t mind disagreement and sparring, but I have a shorter and shorter fuse when it comes to pure idiocy.

May 22, 2007 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

Oh, and Charles, your comments with long URLs have thrown off the margins. I saved some but will delete others – feel free to re-post them using tinyurl.com

May 22, 2007 @ 3:16 pm | Comment

TAM has also ingrained in the Chinese conscience, as the uncensored Baidu links demonstrate, as Li Ze’s TAM song “The Square” demonstrates.

Look at your title. You don’t find it hypocritical? I already cited you the FBI document, and what we are calling KS.

May 22, 2007 @ 3:23 pm | Comment

@88
Why no updates on your blog for over a month?

May 22, 2007 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Charles, can I go on a Chinese TV station now and talk about “the Tiananmen Square Massacre?” Can I? I can talk about the KSM on TV and in print media in the US. Anyway, your argument is atrocious, even embarrassing. I repeat my previous point/questions, which of course went right over your head:

Who cares what the US government calls it? How do you know they don’t call it a massacre? Shit, it happened 40 years ago, so how many documents does the US government put out nowadays about the Kent State massacre? This may take the cake for silly arguments. And here’s what you’re missing: We the people are free to call it whatever we choose. The phrase “Kent State massacre” is ingrained in the US conscience and it has never been censored or forbidden. No one is arguing today that we should not call it a massacre, while in Beijing an official is indeed arguing that TS should not be called a massacre. There’s your parallel.

Note that you’ve now established a pattern. When China does something bad, find an “equivalent” in America, as if that mitigates what happened in China. You’re now an exalted member of the “But America is Bad Too!” club. I expect you to adhere to the club’s strict rules as set up by Hong Xin and Math, and shout in knee-jerk fashion, “Kent State!” whenever anyone says Tiananmen, and “Hawaii!” when someone mentions independence for Taiwan and “American Indians” when anyone mentions atrocities committed in the name of the CCP.

May 22, 2007 @ 4:47 pm | Comment

“If you are too chicken @#$# to come to Seattle, at least be a man and apologize.”

Grow up.

Typical party response. Expecting others to apologise for perceived sleights and avoid facing up to one of the greatest human crimes in modern history. Apologise for that, if you dare.

Btw, I’ve been to Seattle and I never saw you. Guess that was a lucky day. I made no assumptions based on your given name, only on your CCP-esque obfuscation. The mistake, therefore, was your own and the product of your blinkered thinking.

May 22, 2007 @ 10:05 pm | Comment

“was the PLA ordered to shoot? Or they too were given orders to defend themselves?”
Ah yes… the story of the poor PLA soldiers who had to defend themselves… I think that it would be closer to the truth to say that they had to defend the scum oligarchs of Zhongnanhai.
I’m pretty sure that they knew that they were going in shooting. Otherwise, why would they be armed with exploding bullets that tore people’s entire stomachs open?
Of course, they did lose further control after they went in: one student had his stomach ripped open and face slashed with bayonets on top of the exploding bullets that had already blown out some of his innards.
Anyone uncertain about the brutality of the massacre and hoping to make senseless comparisons should really read Ding Zilin’s book “Xunzhao Liusi Shounanzhe” (In Search of the Victims of June Fourth), Hong Kong: Open Publishing House, 2005. Not only does it document a number of individual tragedies that evening, it also documents the continued national tragedy of the abuse and suppression of those whose children, husbands, or wives were killed.

May 22, 2007 @ 10:51 pm | Comment

Richard,

I hate censorship because i am all for freedom of speech.. But can you ban Math from this site? Math is a typical, sick history revisionist who has no regard for human lives. To Math, everything the CCP is right and there is no question about it. No even CCP’s very own leaders now (i mean officials like Wen Jiabo) would make statements like this. Math is even more Maoist than Mao himself. So pls ban him as what he is doing here is insulting the Chinese people’s dignity. With Math posting comments here, its like TPD is having a People’s Daily column right here.

May 22, 2007 @ 11:37 pm | Comment

@Stuart, the bottom line is:

- you have no proof I’m paid (I’m not). Everything I say I back it up, including the FBI’s KS investigation not calling KS a massacre

- Richard’s lined to Will’s “tomato/massacre” blog, but guess what? We say tomato too

- The Chinese people don’t talk about TAM? Try the Baidu links I provided, goto Will’s blog they are not deleted.

- While you’re over there check out China’s own folk singers like Li Ze singing about their own “Ohio” – like Crosby Stills Nash.

May 23, 2007 @ 1:42 am | Comment

Math,

I do not know if what you said about the marshal law is correct but even if it is correct, from what i saw in documentaries , the people demonstrating felt they were innocent, they wanted things to be different…

When the PLA started to shoot them they were genuinely shocked. Maybe they heard the threat but they did not believe that the PLA would shoot them like that.

The propaganda of the CCP always said that the PLA and the CCP were for the people, together with the people, so the shooting of the people was really shocking to them. Thats the impression i have.

You criticize the people for contending with the evil party and call them crazy for having the balls to do so?

So you are so proud to be an adamant coward? The people of China had spirit, I’m happy for them. I’m glad they were so spirited, they had that motivation to actually think that they deserved to have a say in the country’s affairs.

You think the party is so above the people, so much so that you call the students crazy for speaking up in criticism? Thats crazy. The party, and any government is supposed to benefit the people not exploit the pants off them.. The students never said down with the CCP, they wanted the CCP to change, they wanted changes and that is their right to ask that of their government.

The stupid party however, didnt just say “”ok you are good people and we like to listen to your criticism, we will take your points into consideration, now please go home.”"”

They could have said that but they are cowards, and they are not a legitimate or reasonable organization. So they acted like the freaks that they are, they resorted to violence, like any freak who has no legitimacy.

May 23, 2007 @ 1:48 am | Comment

Heres what I said to that article… and by the way Charles Liu ie bobby fletcher, ie sunday morning service so on.. says he can back up what he says but that is a lie, he says tons of things that are not right.

It’s good to stick to the right definitions i think. What would be better would be if people would care more, but definitions can help I guess…

The problem in total is that the Chinese people and others are not allowed to find the truth. If people go digging for such truth, they will be punished and everyone knows it.

It is so obvious that the CCP is afraid of the facts, why is that?? Think about it.

Crack down, by the definition above does not apply, cause Chinas constitution allows the freedom to demonstrate so on..

The “crackdown” that required the CCP to massacre innocent unarmed people, was a terrorist act, purely.

Terrorism as I understand it is to commit terrifying acts or make threats in order to cause people to do as you want them to do.

The Tiananmen June 4th murderous rampage aimed to show people what would happen to them if they spoke up for changes.

Deng I think it was ordered the massacre of the students with the messed up theory of communist terrorism: 100 lives for 20 years of stability

Ok I got the numbers wrong but they are terrorists who believe “stability comes from the barrel of a gun ie terrorism ie submission and fear ie hopelessness and cowardice…’

By the way, talk about messed up redefinitions, how about “Chinese security forces”, “harmonious society”, “stability”,

All these are terms that really are masks for the real use in China, terrorist threat forces who also will extort your money and kill you to personally benefit themselves… Suppression forces, suppressed society, conformed society, thought manipulated, brainwashed society, obedient society, retarded people society, stability? How bout paralyzed by fear! How bout to depressed to care anymore!

May 23, 2007 @ 1:55 am | Comment

Snow, at least I don’t claim Truth Compassion Forbearance, and then turn around accusing people of being Chinese+Russian double agent running Jihadist website, all without a shred of proof.

You think you’re being truthful when you repeat Epoch Times? The truth is when Epoch Times reporters and blogsphere operative lash out like this means I’ve touched a nerve with FLG leadership:

May 23, 2007 @ 6:59 am | Comment

Charles Liu: Thanks for the song suggestion, but don’t you think there’s a qualitative difference between a song like “Ohio” that indicts Nixon and treats the violence head-on, and “Square” which references the events of ’89 more obliquely? Not to knock Li Zhi – it’s a nice song – but look at one of the Chinese listeners you quoted over in the Imagethief thread: “One of his song about the square is very moving, later I realized what this song was about, after seening a tiananmen documentary” – it’s not entirely obvious what the song is about.

Compare that with something like 侏儒之歌, Luo Dayou’s 1989 song that namechecks Marx, calls Deng a dwarf, and has the line “Offer to the people the great victory formed from the glorious government and the blood of our compatriots.” That song got him banned from the mainland for eleven years.

It’s nice that songs like Square are being sung and are finding an audience, but it’s overstating things just a bit to say that the presence of Li Zhi means that there’s a folk-protest culture that’s tolerated on the mainland.

May 23, 2007 @ 9:01 am | Comment

@charles liu

You may not be a CCP member or anything. But from the way how you defend the Party, i have no doubt that you a faithful communist sympathiser. And guess what, you have been sympathising with a murderous political machine that killed over 30 million people on its report card, surpassing both the its Soviet and Nazi counterparts and even putting the Japanese Imperial Army to shame.

Not a PRC citizen? Then mind your own f***ing business! We Chinese don’t need a kid who never had been a direct or indirect victim of the CCP to revise and whitewash history for us. 假洋人,滚蛋!

May 23, 2007 @ 12:20 pm | Comment

@charles liu

And talking about denial of history… You would be shocked at how the CCP denies every single thing even when the whole world knows what had happened on fateful day on June 4 1989. In 1989, I was watching TV on June 5, the day after the massacre. On that day, millions of TV viewers world wide heard crystal clear from the Communist government spokespersons Yuan Mu, Zhang Gong and He Dongchang said loud and clear during a press conference, “There is not even a single fatal casualty on Tiananmen Square.” So are they trying to tell us that the whole world media, regardless of whether Western or not, are staging a huge “story” with their cameras?

Do you know how disgusting it is when someone did something bad in the full of everyone and after then lie to everyone without without even blinking his eyes? It is pure sickness. Why don’t you focus on this sick behavior instead? I would like to hear from you. Don’t hide around like fatbrick, Hong Xing or Math.

May 23, 2007 @ 12:50 pm | Comment

ZHWJ, thanks for a refreshing blast of wisdom and wit. I love the “it’s overstating things just a bit…” You think?

sp, forget about it. Charles will simply come back with the reply that no one was actually killed inside the square, using a technicality to avoid the argument, and then changing the subject to Kent State.

May 23, 2007 @ 1:07 pm | Comment

Um “Charles Liu”,

I guess youre losing your marbles.

What you say to me has no meanning to me. What the hey are you talkin’ about?

I am interested in finding the truth about China on my own, I dont really read the Epoch Times much except for Nine Commentaries. Whats in the Epoch Times can be found from various sources if you look on the internet and in books.

Anyway, I dont know what your talkin about

Peace

May 23, 2007 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

My son was in South China in May 1989, but went to Bejing to check out the protests. He was a film school student with a 16mm movie camera. He watched and filmed the protest at its peaceful stage. He was the Great Wall on 6/3 and hear about violence back in BJ. He went back and looked around. Saw dead bodies, not all being students or workers and saw dead bodies on M day in a make-shift location (as I able to see later), placed on ice blocks with blood all over.

My son says it was a M.

May 24, 2007 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

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