Is there anything bad people won’t do for money in China?

Yikes. (Story is already two days old, but it hasn’t been told enough. Unbelievable.).

UPDATE: Can someone please tell me how you are being sent to this site? For the second day in a row this post is getting hundreds of hits per hour from an unknown site, and I’m very curious where you are coming from. Please leave a comment and let me know – thanks.

The Discussion: 42 Comments

Who is they? You think all chinese do this thing? I have read such stories happening in America and other countries too.

what this woman did is wrong, but I think you have no idea what it is like being a poor chinese in the countryside. You never will! You can see, but never know! You are just another foreigner looking at china through a window!

April 27, 2006 @ 9:35 am | Comment

now you change your words!! Before you written there is nothing chinese wont do for money!

You are wrong!

April 27, 2006 @ 10:05 am | Comment

I wonder why it has received so little media attention…

April 27, 2006 @ 11:38 am | Comment

“Who is they? You think all chinese do this thing? I have read such stories happening in America and other countries too.”


I want URLs and articles–reliable preferred. I have *never* read about an American killing someone and selling their children into slavery. I’ve read about abusive/neglecting foster parents–like putting mentally-handicapped children/teenagers in a bed-cages, but never stealing ’em for selling. I don’t really think we have much of a black market for “American” babies. I could be wrong?

As for the “I think you have no idea what it is like being a poor chinese in the countryside.”, you are so full of sh*t. You “have no idea what it is like being a poor American in the mountains”! There are poor Americans that honestly think clean running water and a toilet in your house are an unknown luxury (Appalachia), and I don’t think even they are killing/robbing children.

Now, having that said, Richard’s post subject is rather much flamebait ’cause other countries have had similar problems–sex slaves, children solders, etc. It doesn’t mean China is the only place where this crap happens.

April 27, 2006 @ 1:30 pm | Comment

Well, here in the states we have the crazy people who kill pregant women who are about to give birth and steal their babies.

April 27, 2006 @ 3:46 pm | Comment

To clarify: not to SELL the babies. They’re just crazy and want the babies for themselves.

April 27, 2006 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

+1 Flamebait for the tabloid-ish title.

April 27, 2006 @ 4:12 pm | Comment

I think this is a what is called a “freudian slip”, Richard unthinkingly wrote “Is there anything they won’t do for money?”, because that was the natural thought that came to him when he learned of the news. And of course by “they” he meant the entire Chinese population, or just the poor people in China.

April 27, 2006 @ 4:52 pm | Comment

Is there anything they wouldn’t do for money? nope, there isn’t. For money and food, people sold their children into prostitution, swapped children for eating, killed their children to gain gods’ favor.

And it’s all CCP’s fault.

They brainwashed the Chinese populace into thinking that money is the most important thing in the world so they wouldn’t think of more glorious things, like freedom and democracy.

They stripped away from chinese culture the centuries-old wisdom of confucianism, the spirit of benevolence in buddhism, and replaced it with inhumane communism ideology, so people can turn into single-minded (not to mention simple-minded) monsters.

Finally, they wrote laws and policies that systematically exploited the people, including prisoners, women, and children, depriving them of the means to survive, means to dignity, and voila, you have the monster you’ve just witnessed.

Oh, I so love how we here in the west think.

I’m holding my breath on his follow-up article of how “one-child policy” increases male children and young women trafficking (indeed, the rate between 1900 to 2000, over the course of one century, has increased by 885.62 times!!!)

April 27, 2006 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

I’m holding my breath on his follow-up article of how “one-child policy”

Don’t waste your time, someone will simply come back and launch into either a) a lecture on how not to be so narrow minded and nationalistic b) some funny crack about how brainswashed you are, usually involving some nicknames

April 27, 2006 @ 5:14 pm | Comment

The “they” are the greedy who will do anything for money. No, your average Chinese person wouldn’t dream of doing this sort of thing (of course). So I just re-named this post to avoid any confusion. But the stories of what people will do for money in China do stand out compared to similar stories in other nations, thanks to a corrupt environment that all but invites its citizens to cheat and steal to get ahead. This topic isn’t exclusive to the Western media. When I was living in China, a Chinese restaurtant owner was arrested for putting rat poison into the food of a competitor, killing 60 or so college students. Just so he could get some extra customers. The next year, men were caught selling fake infant formula that was killing babies. The child trafficking stories and selling of young girls for the sex trade are a daily fact of life, and a new child trafficking ring in China was uncovered just yesterday. Sorry, but the get-rich-is-glorious mentality has made it almost acceptable to some to throw morals to the wind and do literally anything at all to make money. You can find evidence of greeed-driven crimes in any society. They are an old story. But I have never seen the kind of heartless greed on a such a vast scale in any other place – not even close. White collar crime, as we saw with Enron and many, many US fiurms, is a rampant problem. But crimes of actual slaughter, of killing friends and babies and students to make some more yuan – most unusual in most countries, but a sad fact of life in China since greed became good, something to esteem.

I probably shouldn’t have named the post as I did. Maybe, “Is there anytthing some people in China won’t do for money?” Sorry if anyone got the impression I was implying all Chinese people do such things. Any reader of this blog knows that isn’t my point of view, and I believe the Chinese are a wonderful people, which is the only reason I am living in Asia. That’s why there’s a photgraph of Hao Wu on the upper-right-hand side of my blog, a wonderful Chinese person thrown in jail for no known reason by a hearttless and corrupt government. Unfortunately, this corrupt government has made acts of greed something to celebrate. What a shame, to see traditional Chinese values disintegrate among those who now will do anything – literally anything – to make some more money.

April 27, 2006 @ 6:15 pm | Comment

For a great Chinese commentary on greed and modern day society, watch BLIND SHAFT. It’s a really well-done film.

April 27, 2006 @ 7:07 pm | Comment

Richard, I know I did not “read into” the title of your post any extra meaning.
I presumed you meant people like the woman in the article.
Having read it I do have some comments.Please bear with them.

As far as the one child policy, I tend to not put any blame on it(alone) for this particular incident.

There are so, so many, exceptions to the one child policy that I find it difficult to believe that it can be blamed for the incident.
I would blame the authoritarian rule, lack of a rule of law, and the governments mis-guided social control (hukou system, one child,free speech) as a whole.

As far as the Yanlei character goes, I will only share with them this little personal tidbit.
I grew up in the SC/NC hills in the USA. We did not have running water or a telephone until 1978 (the same year I got my first computer). Until 1984 we lived in trailers with intermittent power outages and water outages. In 1986 we moved into “civilization” and I never went back.
Even with all of that, in our community of several thousand, NOT A SINGLE DAMN KID WAS KIDNAPPED. NOT A SINGLE MURDER IN 12 YEARS!

I don’t wanna hear someone (assumably yanlei) who doesn’t know squat from shit to accuse ME of not knowing what it’s like to be poor.

Finally, I live in HeBei, in a small hamlet. I have lived here for a year, prior to that I lived in Benxi and other small impoverished areas.
how about you Yanlei? how dare YOU look at the Real China through your window and assume all foreigners live in Chaoyang or Pudong?

April 27, 2006 @ 7:16 pm | Comment

I agree, this has nothing to do with the one-child policy. I never said it did.

As for Yanlei, by now I am used to ignorant commenters jumping to conclusions hear and arguing from a purely emotional level (ever see those Falun Gong threads?). But I put part of the blame on myself: I had just come back from a business trip when I put up the post last night, and the original title was red meat to those who want to scream that the West hates the Chinese. So I’m sorry about that; I knew what I meant and you did, too, but newcomers didn’t. Because of that headline, this post has apparently been picked up by some big blog or new service, because its generating traffic through the roof this morning. I can’t find the source, but it’s almost certainly in China (based on incoming traffic IPs). So again, if you’re hew here, please understand this site is pro-China, and in general anti-CCP, though I try to be fair toward them, since defining what the CCP is is nearly impossible.

April 27, 2006 @ 7:31 pm | Comment

The original poster said he was doing his dissertation on the effects of the one child policy.I left him a comment giving him my (unsolicited) opinion that this was not the best incidence to blame on that policy. Perhaps you could post to him as well. I would hate for him to get a C-…. 🙂

April 27, 2006 @ 7:39 pm | Comment

Got it, Admiral.

Lisa, fully agree. I watched it spellbound and loved it. Needless to say, it’s banned in China. (Duh.)

April 27, 2006 @ 7:49 pm | Comment

As far as the Yanlei character goes, I will only share with them this little personal tidbit.
I grew up in the SC/NC hills in the USA. We did not have running water or a telephone until 1978 (the same year I got my first computer). Until 1984 we lived in trailers with intermittent power outages and water outages. In 1986 we moved into “civilization” and I never went back.
Even with all of that, in our community of several thousand, NOT A SINGLE DAMN KID WAS KIDNAPPED. NOT A SINGLE MURDER IN 12 YEARS!

Oh wow, no running water or telephone. In many parts of China today, there’s no water period. A bucket of water would be used to wash the faces of a family of 12, and then used to brush teeth. People have to walk 2 kilometers to a local stream to get 4 buckets of water, and that’s their water supply for the entire month. A family of 5 live in a hut the size of a college dorm room, with leaky roofs.

This is like someone saying “How dare you say you are poor! When I was living my poor days, I had to drive a used car!”

I only wrote this whole thing to point out how ridiculous your description of “no running water” sounds. I do not condone the selling of children, anywhere in the world.

, and the original title was red meat to those who want to scream that the West hates the Chinese

So you are allowed to put up inflammatory titles, and others are not allowed to react to them. Brilliant logic.

April 27, 2006 @ 7:51 pm | Comment

Oh dear. China Hand isn’t making sense. How remarkable: So you are allowed to put up inflammatory titles, and others are not allowed to react to them. Brilliant logic.

Of course they are allowed to react! Just look at all the comments above, meathead. If they weren’t allowed, I’d just delete their comments, but I’m not that kind oif guy. If you didn’t notice, I apologized for the title and changed it. You’re just a bundle of anger.

Admiral, I suggest you not fall into CH’s trap; argument will get you nowhere. Once you prove him wrong, he’ll simply change the subject and attack you for something else. Once you figure out how he works, it’s easy to get him to implode, but don’t think you’re going to win him over with logic and common sense.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:01 pm | Comment

Of course they are allowed to react! Just look at all the comments above, meathead. If they weren’t allowed, I’d just delete their comments, but I’m not that kind oif guy. If you didn’t notice, I apologized for the title and changed it. You’re just a bundle of anger.

yes, you offered a non-apology apology, and changed the title not because it is offensive, but, in your own words, to “avoid confusion”. This is like saying “I didn’t mean any offense when I called you a nigger, but to avoid confusion and to calm you down, I’ll apologize.” If you did something offensive, at least have the courage to admit it.

Admiral, I suggest you not fall into CH’s trap; argument will get you nowhere.

What argument? I wasn’t arguing anything. I made it very clear that I do not support the selling of children, I was simply pointing out something in Admiral’s post, that’s all.

It seems that you are the only one arguing with others who weren’t trying to argue anything.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:07 pm | Comment

Say what?? 🙂 If you really think I’m in effect calling Chinese people “niggers…” Well, what can I say? If I thought that, would I write so often about how terribly they suffer, and how it breaks my heart to see it?

Thanks for commenting China Hand, always an interesting and unique experience.

To all my new readers, welcome to the Peking Duck. Please look around to see how this site is dedicated to exploring current events in China, with an emphasis on human rights violations of the great Chinese people, usually at the hands of corrupt officials.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:20 pm | Comment

You America, you don’t understand China, you America, you always hegemony, America always hegemony on the human right. Why you always pick at China? America always hegemony on the human right.

China is become better when it more rich. China is poor, when China develop economic, China get better human right.

Sincerely yours,
Ivan the half-educated CCP apologist

April 27, 2006 @ 10:43 pm | Comment

Richard, Admiral, thanks for the feedback and the link.

I was thinking about doing a follow-up post after your comments but I’m not sure there’s much point because I get the impression you are just objecting in principle; and I struggle to find the rational basis for your argument other than “we disagree�. The link between trafficking and the OCP is well documented, fairly intuitive, and widely accepted.

Even the People’s Daily takes the same view:

The trade is driven in part by China’s birth control policy, which limits most couples to one child. The limit prompts some parents to kill baby girls in hopes of trying again for a boy. A purchased child that is registered as adopted doesn’t trigger the large fines or other penalties imposed by the “one child” policy.

I wouldn’t worry about my grade Admiral, the dissertation is based on substantial research using academic resources and not just popular media sources from the net. You might want to consider the possibility that 6 months of research probably trumps the go-google-it approach adopted here.

Incidentally, there’s clearly lots of trolling going on here regarding the post titles and China in general, you’d probably do better to ignore it instead of indulging them.

April 27, 2006 @ 11:47 pm | Comment

I’m just wondering about what personal experience with poverty that yanlei and china_hand have, since they are so much better suited to talk about it than the Admiral.

April 28, 2006 @ 12:29 am | Comment

🙂 nice post NickC. Good to see an educated response.I’ll take your advice on staying out of “flame wars”.Obviously I appreciate the fact that you’ve done your research. Though I do use google (and yahoo and others) for researching/verifying, it is not my source on this point. I won’t hog space on the duck here, but a quick tally is this. Including the fiance’s family and my immediate co-workers (85 – 100 people altogether), 85% have a sibling, and 45% have 2 or more children. Some of the offspring are 3 – 8 yrs old, others 10 to 14.
Having lived here for 5 years, I have lived in both big cities and small towns.
I truly believe the woman (and others) are in it for the money. The customers (only speculation) may have someting in mind other than adoption. Sick huh?
In either event I’m sure you’ll do well on your paper! Cheers!

April 28, 2006 @ 12:41 am | Comment

sorry—one last little peep, ten I’ll shut up. the only “fines” are those on SOE workers. The company I referred to is a JV. sorry.

April 28, 2006 @ 12:54 am | Comment

Well this incident is just the logical conclusion of the Marxist premise that Humans are merely material things without any transcendent souls or transcendent value.

April 28, 2006 @ 1:20 am | Comment

These murders are not the result of any policy or any genetic code peculiar to the Chinese. They are the result of one person without any scruples. No conclusions should be drawn here.

April 28, 2006 @ 2:10 am | Comment

Absolutely not due to any genetic code. About policy…I’m not so certain. We have talked on this blog many times about the phenomenon some readers call “ma mu,” of not caring at all about anyone but yourself and your immediate family, even to the point of not caring if they die. It’s the phenomenon whereby some people in China can cheerfully walk on past the pedestrian bleeding and fallen on the sidewalk. There could be lots of reasons as to why this phenomenon exists, such as there being so many people that it’s simply impossible to care about all of them. But there’s no denying that its symptoms are uniquely glaring in China, for whatever reasons. I’ve seen it myself so many times. One well-read post from a couple of years ago by another blogger went into considerable detail about this phenomenon, and remains a blog classic. It is relevant to this subject and well worth a read. The lack of responsibility for one’s actions, the carelessness one see every day in regard to the environment and the safety of others — well, I think we all know what I’m referring to, even if we’d rather not acknowledge it. Then we get those who take this lack of caring to an extreme, and put rat poison in the restaurant food, or kill parents to sell their children. These people are aberrations, certainly not the norm, but I do believe there’s a correlation between today’s culture of carelessness and this type of utter disrespect for the life of others. That’s why, while henious crimes take place in every society, we tend to see a disproportionate number of such stories emanating from China, even taking into account the population size. And unlike crimes of passion or obsession or psychosis, all of these crimes I refer to have only one sole motivator, money. Every one. That’s at the heart of the ma mu mentality: there must be more money, there must be more money for me, no matter the moral cost in getting that money.

April 28, 2006 @ 2:30 am | Comment

And again, let’s not fool ourselves with the ersatz “liberal” apologetics for Marx, which gloss over the glaring, simple truth that Communism is essentially antinomian and nihilistic. It’s a death cult, and the proof in the pudding is the millions of murdered corpses it has produced, all the way from Leningrad to Cambodia.

April 28, 2006 @ 3:04 am | Comment

I was just re-reading the comments to try and understand your position, and it occurs to me that we might have got our wires crossed

If so it’s probably my fault, for not being clear and for not reading what you were saying carefully enough.

My point was that increased trafficking was linked to the OCP, but you seem to think I was suggesting that the OCP was responsible for this woman deciding to murder the kids’ parents and if so then I can kinda understand why you thought I was nuts!

Out of interest, do you know which exception youre friends fell into? I was pretty surprised by your experiences as the stats Ive read for major urban areas have indicated very high compliance…

April 28, 2006 @ 6:01 am | Comment

previous conviction: CCP is evil. people are good.

inciting event: evil and disgusting things such as this woman we all read about

primary reaction: thoroughly disgusted at the woman

secondary reaction: thoroughly confused as the above reaction conflicts with conviction #2.

affirmation of conviction #2: my poor neighbor who has no pants wasn’t that bad

explanation: it must be the evil commies that made this woman evil per conviction #1.

conflict resolved with reward — affirmation of conviction#1: aha, commies are truly (underlying the word truly) evil.

ivan, please, be polite.

April 28, 2006 @ 4:15 pm | Comment

oops, “underlining”

April 28, 2006 @ 4:18 pm | Comment

What that woman did was horrific, but I would hesitate to assign blames directly on the CCP or communism. Looking back to early years of Mao’s reign, the crime rate was actually very low. Although you can contribute poverty, inequality and rising materialism in China to CCP’s policies, it has more to do with bare-knuckle capitalism than communist ideology. Moreover, the majority of Chinese people are not without conscience (although they are not freedom fighters) and there are a lot of very noble and kind people out there if you care to look.

Take the singer, CongFei, for example. He passed away last week at the age of 37. In the past ten years, he contributed more than 3 million yuan to charitable courses, volunteered over 6000 hours for social services, adopted 37 orphans, supported more than 100 poor children to school, yet himself lived a Spartan life without any savings.

Now, if I am offered a choice between digging the underlying course of a social scum’s crime and following a good man’s footstep, I think the choice is clear.

April 28, 2006 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

I don’t directly blame the CCP and communism. It’s not nearly that black and white. It’s a confluence of factors, including the sudden opening of the economy, the atmosphere of corruption in which absoutely anything goes and the disintegration of traditional Chinese values that rapidly accelerated as money became the new god. The Party plays a role in all of these things, but one can’t say the CCP made this or that person bad. Neither is the party blameless.

One example of this anything-goes mentality is described by Jasper Becker in his excellent book, The Chinese. Two men are running a factory, and they need to get rid of some highly toxic waste they had placed in a tin drum. Their plan? To dump it into the river, where in just a few short months it would be eroded, poisoning their town’s water supply and killing countless citizens. They were spotted and arrested as they were dropping the drum into the water. Although thousands of innocent people may have died, I don’t see this as an act of evil. Rather, I see it as an act of carelessness, a reflection of the general feeling that to get rich by any means possible is glorious and I will do whatever it takes to get there, no matter how many bodies I leave in my wake. This applies to the woman who killed the children’s parents to sell their children, and the restaurant owner who poisoned his competitor’s customers to death, and the fake infant formula sellers. Are all these people we read about literally on a daily basis “evil”? I suspect not. Rather, they are merely a sign of the times. The Party never intended to foster this mentality, but all the right factors were in place to make it happen – a sudden obsession with money, lack of effective controls and standards, a belief that the environment comes second to short-term personal gratification, and an every-man-for-himself mentality that excuses any type of behavior that advances your own status. Again, there are plenty of examples of greed and badness in every society, but people who live in China know full well that this selfishness and me-first phenomenon is on a unique scale. I believe and hope it’s improving and that the younger generations will continue to flush this mentality out of of their systems. But there’s no denying it’s there. I have documented too many examples that are without precedent in the modern world, such as local officials closing down an AIDS orphanage after it was given million of dollars by an international charity, looting all the money for themselves and packing the children off to state orphanages. When this is the model of behavior from one’s leaders, is there much wonder that people’s attitude toward others is careless, cruel and selfish?

Is this a description of all Chinese people? Of course not. But traces of this mentality can, I’m afraid, be found in many Chinese citizens, which you can see manifest itself on the streets everyday, in the way people will throw their plastic bottle on the ground instead of crossing the street to walk to the trash container. This, too, is something that I believe will improve, but to deny that this exists is an exercise in self-delusion.

April 28, 2006 @ 8:21 pm | Comment

I concur with Nick’s thinking, in that the increased human tracking (value) has increased, with the OCP be a contributing factor.
I also do not think that it is a genetic code thing, BUT I feel that my opinion is somewhat near Richard’s.
I believe, firmly, that the culture here in China is one of to each his own. With the exception of possibly helping a hurt animal, most Chinese people I know have little or no feelings for their fellow Chinese.
About 2 years ago I was walking back to my apartment. (A REAL Chinese neighborhood).
I heard a woman whom obviously was being brutally raped inside an apartment in my building on the 2nd floor. I called the police on my mobile, frantically explained the situation, and they told me to mind my own business.
I went home, woke my gf, and without telling her what happened I took her to that building. Upon hearing the screams she immediately grabbed my hand and started running back to our apartment. I was very angry obviously. When we arrived at home she explained to me that if we became involved, someone would want money.
Want money? Bewildered I managed to coerce here into sharingher thoughts. She insisted that in China, this happens. Furthermore if we “stop them” they will holde us liable for comensating them for losing out on their “experience”.
It really, in my opinion, all boils down to money.

April 28, 2006 @ 9:25 pm | Comment

Nick, the people I’m speaking of fall into two groups. One, the in-laws, are exempted from the policy in that they live in a rural area (as does a large number of the Chinese population). The only “penalty” was that the birth of the child is not covered under the state health system. The “Good Citizen” certificate (awarded when you have your first [only] child) must also be returned to the state.
The second group is compromised of people working in a private, non SOE. The OCP penalties, since the 1980’s, only apply to employyes working for the state or SOE.
Hope this helps.

April 28, 2006 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

Richard: You inadvertently touched the zeitgeist of modern day China.

April 28, 2006 @ 10:36 pm | Comment

Before anyone else criticizes Richard (or even trundles out the “r” word), I would like to point out that even some mainland Chinese will speak out about the “ma mu” problem. Just last week one of my adult students explained something in class by noting that “Chinese people are selfish”. Another teacher told me one of his students said “Chinese people love everything about China – except other Chinese people.”

One of the biggest questions for me about “ma mu” is to what extent it existed before Communism. It’s pretty clear to me how the dismaying actions and policies of China’s ruling elite set a terrible example for the whole society, and I would love to believe that “ma mu” is mostly a recent abberation, the product of the disastrous experiences of the last couple of generations.

Yet, I also know that when Lu Xun decried “ma mu” as a flaw of Chinese culture, he did not seem to be talking about a new phenomenon. I am also troubled by the implications of traditional Chinese sayings that predate Communism, such as “Only sweep the snow in front of your own door” and “Cheating a kind person is as easy as riding a gentle horse”. Maybe these are no worse than “Nice guys finish last” or “There’s a sucker born every minute” but then again I don’t see multiple companies competing to sell deadly fake baby formula in the society that produced those cynical sayings.

I think it also bears repeating, as Richard well explained, that while this phenomena is by no means unique to Chinese society, in China it takes a form that is more prevalent and more extreme than any other culture I personally know of, including other societies that are also very poor and overcrowded. An injured stranger would not likely be ignored by dirt-poor Filipinos, for example. People abduct babies in other countries, but you do not often hear of an entire organized group of orphanages(!), as in Sichuan recently, not only stealing all the equipment and food that westerners donated to the kids, but then organizing and implementing a large-scale peasant baby stealing operation to sell stolen girls to unwitting Americans. This wasn’t the crime of a desperate individual, these were carefully planned and executed on-going operations by staffs and management of multiple orphanages! Horror stories like these are just not wildly atypical (e.g. the similar circumstances of the recently-exposed Shandong deaf academy selling students into deaf crime gangs), even after accounting for population size.

Here in Shanghai, the younger (under age ~30) generation seems to exhibit far less of this characteristic. I’m sure there are many reasons for this, including increased levels of affluence, education, maybe also more exposure to the “wai guo” world. But whatever the reasons, I take a lot of encouragement from it, and have very high hopes for this next generation. To be honest, if it wasn’t for them, I’m not sure I would want to live in mainland China.

And there is also the less-publicized flip-side of “ma mu” – the warm and generous way most Chinese treat the people they *do* know, a commonly cited reason for foreigners who stay in or return to China.

I’m sorry for such a long post, stories about people doing nasty things to babies can draw strong reactions.

April 29, 2006 @ 2:03 am | Comment

CORRECTION – the baby-theft ring involved orphanages in Hunan province, not Sichuan. Sorry!

April 29, 2006 @ 2:42 am | Comment

Thanks Slim, for making my argument better than I myself did.

April 29, 2006 @ 4:25 am | Comment

“mean” said, “Ivan, please be polite” after I called Communism a “death cult.”

Um, Mr “mean”, that was not impolite. THIS is impolte: Go fuck yourself you pathetic Communist whore.

April 29, 2006 @ 5:33 am | Comment

and speaking of trolling… 🙂

April 29, 2006 @ 5:44 am | Comment

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