Shout-it-out thread


The Discussion: 60 Comments

This photo is from my friend Ben’s photo gallery.

To kick things off, I wanted to be sure everyone had seen a comment relative newcomer HongXing made in an older thread:

You say there are paid Internet commentators in China? Well let me tell you, they don’t need to be paid. I myself will often write those comments to strike down some of the nasty posts about China. When the Sun Zhigang incident happened about 2 years ago, I wrote that famous article called “It’s Possible That Sun Zhigang Was Visiting A Prostitute At the Time”. This article was widely circulated online and many people found it very convincing. Of course it made many anti-China forces blood pressure rise.
Posted by: HongXing at November 3, 2005 08:47 AM

This has been bugging me for days. A quick search of this site will show that Sun Zhigang’s brutal murder is a topic very close to my heart, and to see him desecrated like this, with no proof or purpose, is deeply upsetting. I replied to HX:

So, I guess if Sun Zhigang was visiting a prostitute that justifies his brutal murder at the tender age of 27. Because, you know, so few Chinese men ever visit prostitutes and those that do deserve to be beaten to a pulp and murdered by the kind-hearted police officers who protect us all. (Of course, your beloved government saw it differently and, after a huge international outcry, sentenced those cuddly police officers to death and changed China’s vagrancy laws.)

Okay, now talk about anything. But i wanted to make sure readers know what Hong Xing is all about.

November 7, 2005 @ 2:51 am | Comment

Keir,Did Mark ban you from his site? I got banned because I said something like Mark is not talking to himself.

November 7, 2005 @ 3:38 am | Comment

Consider it a high privilege, KK. Oh, and he really does talk to himself. And about himself. All day long, 24/7.

November 7, 2005 @ 3:43 am | Comment

I was going to post the big news until I read the last comment in the previous open thread, and saw the serious start to this thread BUT
Guess whose blog can only be opened using the correct password?
Imagine: Needing a password to enter the Holy of Holies! The Major Arcanum! Could this be an admission of resignation, an appeal not to have the voice of reason intrude upon his Fantasy World? Now he can have uninterrupted conversations with his imaginary ‘comrades’ and sex therapists.
I still await Ivan letting us in on the truth about this individual which he suggests is a blockbuster….
If I may be so bold, but I think this individual took such a sad step right after I challenged him to produce pictures of him AND his mail-order peasant bride TOGETHER.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:28 am | Comment

By the way Richard, is KK our special friend? I wouldn’t put it past him to use another imaginary friend to put out messages to the world outside,especially as I congratulated him for using initials as aliases instead of “John Smith” type names.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:30 am | Comment

KK is okay, I think.

Password? You’re kidding. Never heard of such a thing.

November 7, 2005 @ 6:46 am | Comment

Yes, kk is definitely for real, a long-time commenter here (IP addresses never lie).

November 7, 2005 @ 6:54 am | Comment

Richard, since you brought up the topic of Sun Zhigang, this is that famous article yout talked about:

“I Believe It’s Possible that Sun Zhigang was a Prostitute-Seeker”

In my heart, Sunzhigang is indeed just a prostitute-seeker. I believe it’s really not fair to arrest that police officer.

I believe that the truth is like this: Sunzhigang has a habit of seeking prostitutes. When he arrived at Guangzhou, he went to see some prostitutes at 10pm. We know that when a prostitute-seeker goes on a hunt, he will not bring an ID card, because he’s afraid that the prostitue may use his ID and blackmail him.

So, he gets caught by a police officer on duty, so from that point on, Sunzhigang was already in the wrong.

During the questioning, Sunzhigang refused to say where he’s from to save his face. Also, he begged the police officer to let him go. And he called his friend to bring over his ID card, and his excuse to his friend was that he was arrested because he had no “residency permit”.

Now, a prostitute-seeker would usually be fined RMB 5000. But Sunzhigang obviously did not have that much money. The police officer, knowng Sun was a student, was going to let him go. So he gave Sun a very very light punishment: putting him on a train back to Wuhuan. (He even offered to pay the train ticket). But that was of course against police regulations, and furthermore, that police officer did not realize Sun would later be beaten to death. So when Sun died, that police officer became the scapegoat.

In reality, sending someone back to his original hometown was inappropriate. But to a prostitute-seeker like Sun Zhigang, that was the lightest punishent. That is the simple fact. That is also why Sun Zhigang was grateful to the police officer. Eye witness said Sun wrote “Thank You so much” on the “feedback card” in the police station. Why did Sun Zhigang not tell his friend who later went to pick him up at the station that he was beaten? Because Sun was too ashamed of the real reason he was arrested.

The Chinese society is highly moral. So when someone died, the public always demands accountability. So as a result, that police officer was arrested. And on the wave of vicious attacks by the Right wingers, no one dared to defend that police officer. This is very different than in the American society: American policemen can beat a black to death on the streets and still be released as innocent. An American officer can shoot a Latin American immigrant 41 times, and still be released unpunished. But in China, if there’s anything that dissatisifed the public, government rules demand someone must be held accountable, so that police officer got the axe.

In fact, I believe Chinese police is the most excellent police force in the world. When I walk onto a Chinese street, I feel very very safe. I don’t believe I’ll be arrested by the police like Sun. There are only two scenarios where you’d be detained: 1) In a prostitute market. 2) You look very very dirty and like a beggar. So as long as you keep yourself away from prostitutes and groom yourself well, no police officer will bring trouble to you. Trust me.

There are millions of migrant workers in Guangzhou, I personally am friends to many of them. And all of them are law abiding citizens. I know a family of migrant workers, the woman is named Hu Ping, the man is named Jiang Lu. They are very law-abiding citizens, and work hard and work honestly during the day, and stay home and stay indoors during the night. They dont’ go out and look for trouble, and they certainly don’t complain about this or that. I am happy that most of the migrant workers are good.

November 7, 2005 @ 9:44 am | Comment

It’s hard enough to imagine what kind of lowlife would – without any evidence – slander an unfortunate like Sun Zhigang after he was beaten to death. But what about someone who would boast about it afterwards???

The only term I can think of is “bottomfeeder”.

In fact, it is so disgustingly over-the-top that I have to wonder if HongXing is real person.

November 7, 2005 @ 9:57 am | Comment

Go to any Chinese forum like, and search for the article “ËïÖ¾¸ÕÓпÉÄÜÊǸöæο͡° , you’ll find the Chinese equivalent of what I wrote.

I in fact often cry out for injustices in the police force, especially in the USA. But this one is not such an example. In fact, I think this one is one of those things that aroused too much public outcry that the accountability system of the Chinese government is forced to act and find someone to punish so they can satisfy the public. Perhaps this is a cultural difference, but in China, the government is very sensitive to public reactions and is often forced to satisfy the public.

November 7, 2005 @ 10:00 am | Comment

Hey Richard, your friend Ben has a good eye for photography! Creativity lives in China! 🙂

November 7, 2005 @ 10:02 am | Comment

Aarrgh. First that defense of the Japanese internment camps, now the speculation that an unfortunate man died not because of any police failings – oh, no – but because he was a prostitute seeker. Please, Red Star, stop. You’re making the rest of us China-sympathizers look guilty by association.

November 7, 2005 @ 12:07 pm | Comment

Sorry KK, my mistake…

November 7, 2005 @ 2:51 pm | Comment


If you think the Chinese Police are the best in the world, then you are:

a) Lying
b) Have little direct experience of enough foreign forces

Those Chinese friends of mine that have been in the UK all say that they believed the British police to be much better. They appreciated small things like being able to go up to a Police officer and start a conversation about anything (“what’s going on?”, “I’m lost”, etc) and not be ignored, glared at or generally made to feel unwelcome. 99% of the time you can expect a smile and a “how can I help you?”

It wasn’t a question of feeling safe on the streets (if you sacrifice public freedoms to have draconian laws, any country can be “safe”), it was that our officers were approachable and helpful. Some tourists often complain that we don’t have good information for tourists in enough of our cities. We then normally ask, “didn’t you try asking a policeman?”

It never occured to them that a police officer would give a damn…….

November 7, 2005 @ 3:24 pm | Comment

So many strands of conversation going on…where to start?

1) The MAJ wank just keeps on going, doesn’t it? I’m guessing that his nice “balanced” article about internet censorship in China must have annoyed so many people that he had to lock his blog. What a pity that he doesn’t want to hear our views on the topic. But I suggest caution: I can feel another China Daily rant coming on…

November 7, 2005 @ 3:33 pm | Comment

2) That is an absolutely gorgeous photo. I second Shanghai Slim.

November 7, 2005 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

3) RJT: that is a very important article, and I think it’s yet another thing that the beloved CCP doesn’t want us to talk about. I noticed that it was very high up on the agregator the day that CDT got banned (1st Nov). Richard, have you noticed any other news stories about the blog ban?

November 7, 2005 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

Raj, I’ve always found the HK police to be as helpful as the UK police, but, I don’t know how they treat the locals.

November 7, 2005 @ 3:40 pm | Comment

5) (This is the last, after this I’m going to class, promise.) Richard, I’m having trouble running the search…could you link us to a few of your articles on Sun Zhigang as a memory aid?

November 7, 2005 @ 3:47 pm | Comment


Not that I want to blow my own trumpet, but I wonder who the HK police learnt that from?…………..


November 7, 2005 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

“my own trumpet” – ref my nation (obviously I wasn’t a HK police commissioner) ^^

November 7, 2005 @ 4:01 pm | Comment

Hong Xing, let’s take what you say without dispute. That the police officer was a nice guy who let Sun Zhigang off easy. That Sun Zhigang was seeking a prostitute. That the police officer had nothing to do with the beating.

Your “famous article” is still a piece of misdirection. What on earth does his seeking a prostitute or the police officers non-involvement have to do with the tragedy that Sun Zhigang was beaten to death, or that he was held in a detention system that allows other police officers and officials, not the one who arrested Sun, unrestrained power to detain people without just cause? What does his wanting to seek a prostitute have to do with the fact that officers in these centers can detain and relocate anyone without any hearings or oversight? It has nothing to do with it; it’s the Chewbacca Defense. You shift the issue away from the fact that the system allows great abuse and that there are Chinese legal scholars who say its flatout illegal under Chinese law, and instead make a judgment of Sun’s moral character.

This is precisely the kind of invalid argument that is often deployed to defend China, and in reality simply indicts its self appointed representatives like yourself on another count: stupidity.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:18 pm | Comment

PS. (Oh well, I obviously lied before.) I ran a google on it. I presume that HX is talking about the police officers at Guangzhou Huangcunjie Police station who refused bail to both Sun’s roomate Cheng and his supervisor thus landing him in the detention centre for four days? The ones who told Cheng that they wouldn’t release him because he “talked back” during his interrogation? Thus leading his father to express:
“regret to Southern Metropolitan Daily reporters that he had got a university education for his son. “If he hadn’t gone to university, he wouldn’t have been so bookish as to argue about his rights, and he wouldn’t have been killed,” he said.”
(quote from

Hmm, big topic, very little time now. Firstly, agree with Richard, whether or not he went to a prostitute, he didn’t deserve to be beaten to death. Secondly, if the police suspected that he had gone to a prositute, surely they would have told this to his friend or his supervisor? Or made a note of it somewhere, so that a later investigation would find it. (You know, that’s what “good” police forces are supposed to do, so that they can justify their actions later. This is one of the reasons that the British police are always complaining about how much paperwork they have to do.) Finally, I will grant HX the fact that the police at Huangcunjie Police station probably had no idea that sending him to the holding centre would result in his death.
That’s the trouble with institutional sin, there’s never one specific person to blame, instead the blame is spread evenly throughout society.

Now no police force in the world is innocent. I can think of more than a few cases in which the British police force were found with innocent blood on their hands, and I’m sure you’ve got plenty of examples from America. But as commentators here keep saying, just because it happened in other countries doesn’t mean it’s right for it to happen anywhere.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:24 pm | Comment

Exactly, even if your speculation is correct (he was seeking prostitute), this has nothing to do with his tragic death. His death caused nationwide outrage and led to the abolition of vagrancy laws (which I prase the government for that); I don’t know how you can be on the wrong side on this.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:36 pm | Comment

Kier, actually you can see all the visitors’ information by simply clicking the site meter button at the bottom of the page.

Richard, you should learn from Mark by putting a password at your site. no, not for the Peking Duck, but for the site meter. that being said, your site is really popular, the visitors are from all around the world.

November 7, 2005 @ 4:41 pm | Comment

Richard, you should learn from Mark by putting a password at your site. no, not for the Peking Duck, but for the site meter. that being said, your site is really popular, the visitors are from all around the world.

If you don’t have an open site meter, with no password, your visitor information isn’t properly counted by the powers that be that rate your blogs (like Truth Laid Bear). I have nothing to hide when it comes to my site statistics. I suspect they might even be equal to – or even better! – than Flowing Waters. Why should I put it under password?

November 7, 2005 @ 5:01 pm | Comment

I am interesting in the story behind the picture. Does someone know?

November 7, 2005 @ 5:15 pm | Comment

Hey guess what? It’s that time again – Chinese espionage charges time!

November 7, 2005 @ 5:22 pm | Comment

Great, last times they were proven false. Could someone give a summaration of the past charges? This is nothing new. Even Israel spies on the US. It’s quite obvious the US spies on China as well.

November 7, 2005 @ 5:40 pm | Comment

Seems like Hong Xing and Math or Math’s Fan are one and the same person. because
lists the sunzhigang article as being written by shuxue, or math, the creator of such rational arguments as “freedom depends on how big a country is” (tell that to stalin!)

the guy’s a total idiot. what a joke.
For example:
“The Chinese society is highly moral. So when someone died, the public always demands accountability.”
I could think of a couple of deaths over the past 50 years in which people have not been held accountable. can anyone else?
“a prostitute-seeker would usually be fined RMB 5000.” I knew an official who was an avid prostitute-seeker. How come he never get caught or fined? Oh, and he could have afforded the RMB5000.

November 7, 2005 @ 6:56 pm | Comment

Kevin, I really appreciate your research. I was highly suspicious of Red Star, and now we all know.

HX, I hope you’ll learn that once you get caught playing games no one can ever trust you again. Not that anyone here ever trusted you to begin with….

November 7, 2005 @ 7:00 pm | Comment


Please take care with that trumpet. Yeah, the British police can be great, but they can also be deadly. Think of the cases of Mickey Powell, Derek Bennett (I was in Brixton the night after that shooting, not a pretty scene,) Harry Stanley, Andrew Jordan, and of course, most recently, Mr de Menezes. Less deadly, and actually slightly amusing is the recent case where an ethnically-Kurdish teenager used his mobile phone to record the policeman who arrested him. When the judge heard the recording, he threw the case out, and the PC was suspended for racism.

Personally, I don’t think that the Chinese police are the best in the world. I’m sure that there are many cases of death and abuse in police custody that go unrecorded – look at how persistent Sun Zhigang’s family had to be before they learned the truth. But I also think that if the British police are the best in the world, then the world is in a terrible state, and citizens of every country need to be constantly vigilant to prevent similar tragedies.

November 7, 2005 @ 8:18 pm | Comment


Sad to say the boy died last week on Thursday. The doctor said death was caused by septicaema. I believe it is a blood infection. It was also said the boy’s immune system was very weak and he had poor nutrition. The brain surgery was not the cause of death.

My question is what the hell happened. Any doctors here that can discuss this with me.

One who calls himself Mark Anthony Jones emailed me offering 10,000RMB for the boy’s medical expenses with normal qualifications. If the offer was sincere, thank you. I deleted the e/address for MAJ by mistake.

I have paid about 21,500RMB for the boy. Some money was collected at the Anchor Bar in Chengdu. It will go for burial costs I believe.

November 7, 2005 @ 8:23 pm | Comment

You know, the more I look at it, the more fantastic that photo strikes me as being. I just wish that third guy’s fuzzy head wasn’t in the pic, though. More ooomph with just the two figures, I think, both in terms of theme and composition. The diagonal would’ve been more dynamic, and you would’ve had greater reinforcement of the whole order/anarchy thing…

Sorry…just bullshitting, moi.

Also, this is my absolute last time commenting on this particular person – but I just have to say I just got the “Madge” moniker thing. MAJ + Madonna, of course. I’m slow. And whoever thought it up is quite the witty kitty.

November 7, 2005 @ 9:53 pm | Comment

My friend who took that amazing photo is traveling this week, but I asked him to come over and explain the story behind it. Give him a few days. It is a truly awesome picture.

November 7, 2005 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

A soccer fan?

November 7, 2005 @ 11:05 pm | Comment

Attention to the jumper Watch for edited comments.

November 7, 2005 @ 11:17 pm | Comment

Somebody sure has a good sense of humor over at that other blog. Heh. Indeed.

November 8, 2005 @ 5:23 am | Comment

“I believe Chinese police is the most excellent police force in the world. When I walk onto a Chinese street, I feel very very safe.”

Strangely enough, I agree with 红星, but only to a point.

When walking around China, I too feel pretty safe in the knowledge that I won’t be given any grief by the police. I can walk around and see an armed Chinese policeman and I’m not in the least bit worried that he will kill me, beat me, or otherwise treat me like garbage.

I don’t however feel safe around police from countries like France and America, especially not the ones who walk around with huge batmanesque utility belts and are armed to the teeth, and who can’t look at a non white without being agessive or accusational

I’m don’t know that I will ever be able to walk down the street in the states without feeling like crossing it when I see a policeman or a deputy comming the other way down the sidewalk.

However, saying this, I only feel safe in Chinese towns and cities, the countryside is another issue all together. Some of the provincial police in China seem almost drunk with power and they push their weight around just because they can. Even whites get a hard time in the sticks if they seem out of place.

November 8, 2005 @ 6:45 am | Comment

The photo was taken in the Worker’s Stadium, Beijing, in the evening of July 26, 2005. A friendship football match between Beijing Hyundai and Manchester United was hold there.

The guy shouting in the picture is a 100% fan for the goalkeeper, Edwin van der Sar of Manchester United. He climbed to the fence around the football field and started shouting “Van der sar” (in Chinese), and hope his hero could notice him. The guard thought this crazy guy destory the peace of the stadium, and tried to stop him initially, but finally the guard had no any idea for the passion of this football fan.

When Edwin van der Sar was replaced, this guy could not help crying. But finally he got a signature from his hero, he was happy in the end. You can check out my other pictures for whole story.

November 8, 2005 @ 8:16 am | Comment


It’s pretty much a matter of perspective. The Police have got steadily better over years, to the point where today most incidents are accidents rather than a case of deliberate malice.

I did not say they were the best in the world – please recognise that. Who knows, perhaps the Swedish police are better. But they are very good. I think you can see their quality in the fact that their biggest critics normally come from inside the UK – foreigners, even ones who have lived here for ages, always ask why we’re so hard on them.

November 8, 2005 @ 9:25 am | Comment


The British Police appear to be a bit powerless right now, they have been hog tied by too much regulation and could actually do with the freedom to shot criminals on site and to ‘bash them about’ a bit. From everything that I’ve heard, police seem to be almost afraid to arrest a black kid incase they sue him or to restrain a suspect incase they are charged with assaulting them.

November 8, 2005 @ 9:43 am | Comment


Hong Kong’s police ARE the UK police, they recieve much of the same training and are reding from the same rule book. The only real difference is that they have more guns.

Still, I feel far safer in Hong Kong than in most other countries where the pollice are armed.

November 8, 2005 @ 9:47 am | Comment

Edwin van der Sar is a great goalkeeper indeed. It’s nice he gave him a signature. There are probably millions of Chinese who adore soccer, yet the Chinese national soccer team is performing badly. They even didn’t qualify for the World Championship in Germany! 🙁 Hopefully will that change. Out of the 1.3 billion Chinese, there should be 12 great soccer players.

November 8, 2005 @ 2:48 pm | Comment


I didn’t put any comment on this blog for quite some time but found it hard to keep my silence when someone is pouring shit on the head of Sun Zhigang. Thanks for the link ( provided by Kevin, I finally found that “famous” article boasted by HongXing, or ShuXue (Math) which he used as a pseudonym when writing it, as Kevin correctly pointed out. The article was titled “ËïÖ¾¸ÕºÜ¿ÉÄÜÊǸöæοÍ(Sun Zhigang is very likely a prostitute-seeker)”, rather than “ËïÖ¾¸ÕÓпÉÄÜÊǸöæοÍ(Sun Zhigang is perhaps a prostitute-seeker)” as provided by HongXing himself previously. To tell the truth, I couldn’t even finish reading the first paragraph of the article before I felt sick. What a shame that any living beings would fabricate a story like this! If Sun Zhigang was doing anything illegal when detained, certainly this would be the best defence for those policemen when they were trialed lately, but I have never seen or heard about any reports on Chinese media about this case which indicating even to the slightest extent that Sun was detained because of any illegal act, let alone prostitute-seeking, which is largely viewed by the Chinese public as both illegal and immoral, and this is self-explanatory that what a lier HongXing is all the way! Infuriated by the shamelessly defamatory article, I searched online other articles posted by “Êýѧ(Shuxue)” and found tons of them, all filled with self-satisfactory rubbish-like verbiages. Among these idiotic articles I found one most interesting, which proclaims that China would become the world’s No.1 by doing nothing but keeping the current political system–“ÎÒÈÏΪÏÖÔÚµÄÖй úµÄÕþÖÎÖƶȣ¬ÊÇÊÀ½çÉÏ×î ÓÅÐãµÄÕþÖÎÖƶȣ¬ÏÖÔÚµÄÖйú¾¯²ì¶ÓÎ飬 ÊÇÊÀ½çÉÏ×îÓÅÐãµÄ¾¯²ì¶ÓÎé¡£ÎÒÈÏΪÏÖÔÚµÄÖй ú£¬ÊÇÊÀ½çÉÏ×îÃñÖ÷µÄÖƶȡ£Òò´Ë£¬»ù±¾ÉÏÓ¦µ±±£³ ÖÏÖÓеÄÕþÖÎÌåÖƲ»±ä¡£ÎÒÈÏΪ£¬ÏÖÔÚµÄÖйúÕþÖÎÖƶȣ¬ ֻҪά³Ö²»±ä£¬¾ÍÄܹ»ÔÚ±¾ÊÀ¼Í³ÉΪÊÀ½ç×îÇ¿¹ú£¬¶øÃÀ ¹úÒ»¶¨»áÔÚ±¾ÊÀ¼Í³¹µ×µØ±ÀÀ£(I submit that the current political system of China is the best political system in the world. I submit that the current police force of China is the best police force in the world. I submit that the current China is the most democractic regime in the world. Therefore we basically should keep the current political system unchanged. I submit that as long as the current polical system of china is kept unchanged, China will certainly be the most powerful country within this century and the United States will certainly collapse utterly within this century)-I just translate the paragraph as it is regardless of its illogicality and absurdity.

Anyone who read Chinese and are patient engough could read the whole stuff ( which is titled “ÔÙ̸ÎÒ¶ÔëÔ󶫵Ĺ۵ãºÍÎÒÏÖÔÚÇãÏòµÄÕþÖι۵ã(Again on my opinion about Mao Zedong and the political viewpoints that I incline to )”.

I submit that you and other commentators on this blog ignore whatever HongXing will be saying in the future, otherwise you are insulting your own intelligence and wasting your own precious time.

November 8, 2005 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

ahhhh…the scrollling!!! 😛

November 8, 2005 @ 4:29 pm | Comment

Open the thread by clicking on the time of day link as opposed to the “Comments” link and the scrolling problem is solved. This woulnd’t happen if commenters would use or simple html.

November 8, 2005 @ 4:38 pm | Comment

Ben, thank you for telling us the story behind this photo.

November 8, 2005 @ 4:43 pm | Comment

I’d like to correct myself: it should have been 11 soccer players, instead of 12. 🙂 Obviously a soccer team consists of 11 players. I think I need to get a sleep. 😉

November 8, 2005 @ 5:12 pm | Comment

Let me clarify a few things.

There were basically three leftist writers active on China’s forums. Me, Math, and Ma Beiming. I am currently living in the USA, and so is Ma Beiming. Math currrently resides in Mainland (no one knows who he is, it is rumored that he is a math professor in Xiameng Universty). I teach electrical engineering in an American college, and I’m not exactly sure what Ma Beiming does.

That “Sunzhigang is perhaps a prostitute-seeker” article was originally written by me. Math carried that article and acknowledged me in many occasions. And that article got copied and spread on China’s internet, and people lost who the original author was.

Right now I write for and Strong Nation Forum in China under several pseudonyms, and so does Math. Ma Beiming basically is responsible for commentaries on overseas Chinese communities such as Chinese Readers Digest ( and Literature City (

I foresee more and more leftist righters arise in Mainland China and dominate the forums in the near future. The rightest and pro-west writers on Chinese forums are already losing their battles, as they could not find good words to retort and could not write eloquent posts. When I was at my peak 2 years ago, I write about 5 original posts per day and I have a very massive distribution network. Math was even more proliferate, and was able to sustain about 8 posts a day for weeks.

November 8, 2005 @ 8:37 pm | Comment

Mainlander, I want to thank you for your spectacular comment. The words HongXing writes should indeed be ignored because he is a party stooge, as his last comment makes abundantly clear. But everyone should look carefully at what he is doing. He is living proof of a conscious and coordinated effort to propagandize forums such as this one in a campaign that will go to any lengths to make the party look good. He will even go so far as to smear a murdered young man. He is a pure piece of shit.

November 8, 2005 @ 8:41 pm | Comment

Hong Xing, since you’re clarifying, some questions:

a) how do we know any of that is true?
b) do you intentionally make your arguments as logically faulty as they are, or is that just the best you can muster?
c) why do it, why tell us this, why any of the entire thing?
d) again, how do we know you aren’t totally full of s**t?

November 8, 2005 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

Hey, guess what? Red State Virginia just elected a Democratic Governor! New Jersey elected a Democratic Governor! And 3 out of 4 of Ahuld’s “reform” propositions are losing, with the fourth too close to call…

November 9, 2005 @ 12:11 am | Comment

Hey guys,

I’m back. TPD was blocked where I am, for some days. For some reason it has opened up again today.

Anyway, my two fen, about HongXing’s confession:

I’ve not had any personal experience with Chinese intelligence organs – not to my confirmed knowledge anyway. But I’ve had considerable experience dealing (in unfriendly ways) with the Russian organs, and so, I must say:

I’m stunned that HongXing could be so bloody stupid, to declare openly how he has been working as a provaceteur.

If any Russian spy did this, he would be assassinated quietly and then the Russian organs would blame it on the mafia. (Not that I’m wishing this on HongXing, I’m just saying, this is how the Russians do it, to any intelligence operative who is stupid enough to out himself in public)

This leads me to conclude one of two things, either:

1. Chinese intelligence services are hiliariously stupid and have no cohesion and no common sense, OR:

2. Hong Xing does NOT work for the government, but is, rather, just a sad wanker, a wannabe
“China Lover”. In fact, based on HongXing’s recent outing of himself, I think HongXing is probably a terrible embarassment to the PRC.

My bet is on number two. I’d bet a thousand to one odds on number two, that HongXing is just a wanker and a fantasist – although sometimes a destructive and always a despicable one. All the more reason to ignore, and to laugh at him…. 🙂

And seriously, if HongXing really IS Chinese (which I doubt, now), then I say, may God bless and protect HongXing, because the organs of the PRC will not. And that is why I believe HongXing is not even Chinese. He’s just a wanker, a wannabe. Kind of like a certain expat in Shenzhen, come to think of it….although I do NOT think HongXing is the same person as that other wanker is…..
… but I AM 99 percent convinced that HongXing is not a citizen of the PRC. And I am 100 percent convinced that HongXing does not work for the PRC government in any authorised way.
(Which is, by the way, a sign of my respect for the PRC government….)

November 9, 2005 @ 6:31 am | Comment

I prepared an argument against each of your 3 posts above, especially the one about the British police being powerless right now. (WTF are you on boy?)

I then read through my comment, and decided not to post it, because it might risk mentioning a little bit too much about your personal information, which I know you prefer to keep private.

But I’ve got it saved, just in case you wish to continue ranting away like a Veritas supporter. 😉

November 9, 2005 @ 8:02 am | Comment

Have you guessed my nationality yet?

I appreciate that you didn’t claim that the British police were the best in the world, but please bear in mind the fact that when I wrote the comment, I was unaware that kevin was breaking the truth about HongXing. My purpose was to try to avoid anybody arguing, “Look the British police have been known to arrest people who then suddenly died in strange circumstances and get away with it, that means that you can’t criticise the Chinese police for the same thing.”

I believe it’s very important to be aware of the flaws in your own system before criticizing others. That’s all.

However, I’m afraid that I can’t quite see how PC David Yates was secretly recorded calling an ethnically-Kurdish teenager a f**king Arab by mistake.

I guess I must just be very British, because I think that it is vitally important that the biggest critics of the UK police are the UK people. The police force of any nation should be accountable to the people that they purport to serve.

Having said all that, the Met have been unfailingly kind, polite and helpful to me, even in Brixton on a Saturday night. I really hope that the fact that I’m a small, white, middle-class female with a “posh” Surrey accent has nothing to do with that fact, and that officers like PC Yates are the exception rather than the rule.

November 9, 2005 @ 8:19 am | Comment

Hm, about British police (or more accurately, English and Scottish – I’ve never been to Northern Ireland, so I only know about English and Scottish police – who work under different legal systems and have slightly different cultures and habits):

As a matter of fairness and authenticity, as an abstract matter I’ll say my opinion is balanced between ACB and Dish.

However, as a personal matter, I’m inclined to praise the English police. A disclaimer here: I’m American AND I’m very Northern European racially.
So, in England, I look and sound and act like a perfect Anglo-Saxon with an East Coast American accent. (Upper middle class accent to boot, which, in my part of America, sounds vaguely English. Most English people mistake me for Canadian, damn it! 🙂

However, all I’ll say anecdotally here, is that the ONLY time I was ever arrested in England, I was treated very kindly and I was given tea and Jaffa cakes (chocolate-organge cookies, to my fellow Yanks),
and I was interrogated in the most polite ways, and then I was let go, and they did not make any bad marks on my passport. And when they dismissed me, I asked them, “Will this create any problem for me, whenever I want to visit the UK again?” And the English cop said,
“No worries, you’re always welcome here.”

However, as I said, I’m a US citizen and a very White one. So, my anecdote might not apply to other foreigners or other races in England.

But in my limited experience, the English police were far more polite and law abiding than any of the police in any major American city.

I’m just sayin. And I know, my experience might not be typical, but still, it’s worth mentioning, that the English police made a better impression on me than any American police ever did. (And I broke more laws in America than I ever did in England – mostly via protesting, via civil disobedience – but that’s another story…..) And even the American police were basically humane, in my experience…..
…and on THAT note, I remember, the moment when I arrived in Finland, from Russia: I saw a Finnish police car, and I realized, that it was the first time in years, the first time ever since I arrived in Russia, the first time that I was NOT afraid of the Police. That says a lot, about the difference between police in free Western countries, versus the police in Russia, or even FAR WORSE than Russia: The police in China……..
…in Russia, I always knew that I could negotiate with the police and talk to them, if I had to. (And I did, a number of times. ) But I have never had that kind of sense of security in China – I would rather die, than be arrested by Chinese police….
…I would fear being arrested by Russian police – because, I would know, that they would want to get a LITTLE bit of something from me. Meaning, that the Russian police would want a small bribe (like around ten dollars), or else, they would just want to harass me a bit, just on principle. HOWEVER, I NEVER feared being beaten up or killed by regular Russian policemen. In the worst case, they would take most of my money (and then leave me enough money to get home) and then have some drinks with me and tell some jokes….
….but I have never had any reason to trust the Chinese police the same way. Because, UNLIKE the Russians, the Chinese police have NO respect for Human Life. ( cf, how the Chinese police beat someone to death for lacking the proper papers, the case HongXing tried to justify.)
I would rather die than be arrested in China. Being arrested in Russia is a temporary injustice and a loss of a few dollars – but being arrested in China is a death sentence without any chance of appeal.

November 9, 2005 @ 8:58 am | Comment

PS, Dish,

After I sent my last comment, I saw yours. You’re from Surrey? I lived in Surrey for a while. (But still within commuting distance from London, something like “zone six” from Central London.) Precisely, I lived in the suburb of Wallington for a while, when I worked in London. (I’m confident in revealing that, because I know even my former landlord in Surrey has forgotten my name….so I know, it’s impossible for anyone here to trace my identity from Surrey – you know how disorganised they are in Surrey…..)

Just being friendly here (and not on the pull, come on, give over!)

And so, Dish, I know exactly what your (MARGINALLY) “posh” Surrey accent sounds like. 🙂 It sounds like a peculiar blend of Queen Elizabeth and the Spice Girls.

(I know the difference between True Posh and Surrey Posh. TRUE POSH, TRUE upper class, is what you hear sometimes on the tube, from badly dressed girls who sound very weary.
But Surrey-Posh is seldom heard on the tube, because Surrey girls have cars. The Upper Class take the tube, but the Surrey-Class always use cars whenever they can. And the Surrey-Class never show any signs of weariness. Weariness/ennui is a sign of the true Upper Class…..and Surrey Girls just don’t know how to demonstrate it….you know what I mean, the REAL upper class of England try very hard to be like the working class. That is their way of distinguishing themselves from the middle classes of Surrey…….. 🙂

Surrey: As one working class English comedienne (Tracy Ullman) said, satirically: “Mummy says your parents are common, but not as common as Caroline’s parents (from Slough)….”


Anyway, Dish, as you can see in my above comment, in American terms I have a very snotty accent – but it’s also mixed, some Old East Coast Yankee mixed with a bit of Yorkshire from my Grandfather and my uncles….. 🙂

But most Americans don’t know the difference. Most Americans think a Yorkshire accent sounds very posh…….. 🙂 🙂 🙂 I am an upper-middle class American from an upper-working class English family (on one side anyway), and most Americans think I’m upper class because I have a touch of a working-class Yorkshire accent and dialect and manners.
So, if you are a good Surrey lady, then you can come to America and be mistaken for working class, because a Surrey accent sounds a BIT like London and most Americans will mistake you for an East-Ender, while they mistake ME for upper class because I sound and behave a bit like Yorkshire mixed with old East Coast Yankee (and the Yankees were all the scum of England to begin with.)

(And Martyn, are you enjoying this?)
🙂 🙂 🙂

November 9, 2005 @ 9:45 am | Comment

Sorry, you’ll have to continue the dialogue in the new thread. Thanks.

November 9, 2005 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

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