Famous Sanlitun Bar Street Open Thread

…cause I don’t know about you, but I could use a beer…

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 102 Comments

Sorry, Mark. I kept the first comment up because you’d been spoofed, which isn’t fair, and I figured it wouldn’t hurt to leave it for Richard. But that was the only one. I don’t understand your fixation with this site, but it’s really kind of sick, at this point.

September 6, 2005 @ 10:30 pm | Comment

Thanks for the tip on the italics, are all the html characters desplayed raw? Lemme try doing a lesser than symbol, if it comes out weird just ignore it I guess:<i>

I went to dinner and when I came back, tried posting on that international workers’ day thread a couple of times and kept getting errors saying can’t post on this thread. I thought it was just a way of saying “you’ve got unacceptable words in your comment”, untill I refreshed the page and saw it has indeed become a closed thread, guess I’ve been haning around chinese BBSs to often.

Anyway, still curious about the anonymous guy, some comments on him on that other thread got me wondering what he posted to get such strong feedbacks from people, because for a moment it reminded me of censorship in some of China’s online forums, where the poster gets banned for offending the administrative member/s of a bbs, has all of his posts deleted or screened, and then bombarded with insults by the board managers making him/her seem like a criminal

It happened to me during the intense anti-japanese period a few months back. My was inquiring about two deleted posts I copied off of a website containing some japanese methods of learning english through magazines teaching english through phrases like

“Disappoint – in my childhood I was cruelly disappointed at the sight of the slide fasteners on the back of the heroes”

or

Broadcast – ‘they broadcast the scene of glance at the pant1es of the national icon.’

Which I thought to be an amusing article, but was recieved by the a board manager as a very dangerous post that will feed the FenQings’(angry teens?)rage.
I then argued with the board manager for quite a while, the board manager constantly twisting my words and furiously accusing me of meaningless things that seemed very silly untill she finally froze my ID, screened all my posts and only hers could be seen (imagine dozens of people howling for my blood…What amaz1ng crowd man1pulation powers we have).

I haven’t known commenters on pekingduck this ticked off at someone before (although I don’t really come here often, usually just a few times every month to copy some interesting articles, translate them to chinese then release them to chinese BBSs to see how long they can flutter on the boards before deletion, the picture with a person holding a “peking duck off” board was especially amusing to witness, many people didn’t get it).

And all I know(knew) now is(was) that this anonymous person said some bad things about the US, the people here didn’t like it, and he got banned (or was recently temporarily banned ).

Update:
After reading the last post (after dinner) on the international workers day thread, I’m guessing he used a lot of aliases to try and give the impression of having lots of people with the same views as him?
Isn’t that the job of those governmt paid people whose job is to influence public opinion, or is that just a myth?

Although I still don’t think it would justify wanting to “kick the coward’s head in”, I’m think I’m still missing a lot then?

I know the last paragraph (before the “update”) looks really stupid with all the bracketed stuff, but the whole thing would be pointless without that last paragraph and *not too whinily:* I spent a lot of time typing all this****

September 6, 2005 @ 11:02 pm | Comment

Mark’s comments have been deleted by Other Lisa, because he has consistently violated the very basic rules as stated at the top of every thread.

I’m sorry to do this, Mark. But enough’s enough.

I’ll pass on your message to Richard.

September 6, 2005 @ 11:07 pm | Comment

Wow… so many typos…didn’t realize till I reread them
Guess that happens when you depend on Word too often and only Notepad is around…

September 6, 2005 @ 11:07 pm | Comment

Sigh.

Mark, I just banned a whole passle of assholes, including other Mark. Deleted some comments as well. I have however tried to err on the side of letting people speak.

I have also tried to maintain richard’s policies. Several people have been banned here, including a person who consistently made dumb “jokes” that frequently came off as racist. Richard banned him, I’ve kept him off the site during my tenure here.

You have to really screw up and do it consistently to get banned here because all of us believe in the principles of free speech. But you also have to play by the rules. It’s pretty simple.

September 6, 2005 @ 11:12 pm | Comment

Hmmm.. I would have been interested in reading that article. Just for kicks.

He amuses me for some reason.

September 6, 2005 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

Dear Garn…

It’s a looong story. Both Marks used a number of different aliases to post under. The earlier Mark is the one who brings up such strong emotions. It had nothing to do with anti-US sentiments, by the way. I can direct you towards an archive post that explains the whole thing if you really want to know, though I hate to bring the whole subject up again.

So you know, in the past, Richard never banned anyone and rarely deleted comments. Then we had the Mark incident. After that, there were some commenters saying really stupid, racist stuff, and others who would repeatedly insult the site owner or other posters. This caused a lot of problems. It didn’t seem to matter how many times he appealed to people to show some maturity and think about what they wrote; they just kept doing it.

In the US, sometimes “hate speech” is put into a separate category from other protected forms of speech. The legal theory is that it’s like shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater – it’s malicious and intended to do others harm. At times, some of the stuff being said here fell under that category.

Also, this is a private web site. If you consider it an online magazine, then the publisher has the right to exercise some discretion about what is published under his auspices.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Please feel free to ask others and continue to post here. I’m interested to read about your experiences.

And yeah, the italics and blockquotes look pretty cool! There’s nothing stupid about what you typed at all.

September 6, 2005 @ 11:30 pm | Comment

If you’re really interested in the Japanese style English lesson, you can go to this site page to read the article: http://www.harmful.org/homedespot/newtdr/NEWtdrARCHIVE/diary/mmmmmmagazines/moetan.htm

At least all the words are spelt correctly . The biggest IM software provider in China – Tencent sells .gif image furnishings to their version of Cyworld–uncopyrighted of course– Qzone, with typos such as “ture love” for 1Yuan a piece:
(I pointed it out to the customer service department a looooong time ago, I guess they don’t care)

The Qzone has become quite popular among kids here, it’s sort of a blog with a message board system and photo album built right in, one of the most important factors of its popularity (Near Monopolization of the IM market in China aside) is its customization , you can decorate your own blog with lots and lots of superficial money-wasting memory and CPU swallowing animated GIFs placed anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even blocking the navigational buttons.

BTW, if anyone’s curious about it, you can come to my QZONE to have a look:http://234063585.q-zone.qq.com
I didn’t spend a dime on it and I can say without doubt it’s the best darned QZONE there is (due to the fact that most of the users are high schoolers and have no idea of what HTML stands for)

September 6, 2005 @ 11:49 pm | Comment

Martyn,
couldn’t find your e-mail so It post it here. Yes would be nice to have a beer together but Gaungzhou is not on my travellplan this time.
Perhaps next time.

September 7, 2005 @ 12:47 am | Comment

i am going to visit houhai bar street, i hear that it’s hot right now in beijing

September 7, 2005 @ 12:50 am | Comment

And Gordon, what concernes your comment yesterday, Lol. Seems that my comment was a little mistakable. I meant the good food, you know.

September 7, 2005 @ 12:53 am | Comment

Bingfeng, Houhai is pretty nice, at least it was when I was there. I went to a Vietnamese restaurant in an old restored building, and then a more funky sort of bar. There’s also this place called Cafe Sambal that’s in a hutong where Mao used to live…I have the address somewhere. The same owner has a supposedly groovy bar close by which I haven’t visited yet called BED.

I have to admit it, I’m a sucker for seeing those old buildings preserved and used. Too bad it’s mostly entertainment for foreigners, but it’s better than all of this lovely old architecture being torn down and replaced by ugly highrises.

September 7, 2005 @ 12:56 am | Comment

Gordon the horse’s mouth just wrote something positive about China, looks like the sun rises from the west.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:02 am | Comment

Why do I keep getting this:

An error occurred:

You must define a Comment Pending template.

Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///) at plugins/Blacklist/lib/Blacklist/App.pm line 44.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:09 am | Comment

Dear Other Lisa
Thanks for the debriefing, I enjoyed reading articles and comments on the Peking duck since 2003 (although not quite frequently), and had the impression that Mr. Mark Anthony Jones was on good terms with Richard (most of the comments I read were his), I’d appreciate it if you could give me the address to the article/s I missed out on.

I hope whatever the problem is won’t cause the Pekingduck to be blocked by The Firewall, it’s slow enough to access it as it is from my house (perhaps due to the layers and layers of filtering networks added? They often had to stop internet services for “upgrades” that made surfing even slower, guess I should leaveÍøͨ and try µçÐÅ)

Dear Gordon, and everyone else with a few minutes to kill and NO FOOD OR DRINK IN THEIR MOUTHS

If you’re interested in having the Japanese style English lesson, you can go to this site page to read the article: http://www.harmful.org/homedespot/newtdr/NEWtdrARCHIVE/diary/mmmmmmagazines/moetan.htm

At least all the words are spelt correctly. The biggest IM software and service provider in China – Tencent, sells GIF image furnishings for their version of Cyworld–uncopyrighted of course– Qzone, with typos such as “ture love” for 1Yuan a piece:
(I pointed out the embarrassing typo to customer service a looooong time ago, no change)

The Qzone has become quite popular among kids here, it’s sort of a BLOG with a message board system and photo album built right in, one of the most important factors of its popularity (near monopolization of the IM market in China aside) is its customizability, you can decorate your own blog with lots and lots of superficial money-wasting memory and CPU swallowing animated GIFs placed anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even blocking the navigational buttons. You can also create your own blocks with HTML supporting content, as many as you’d like (I think MSN spaces should do this too)

BTW, if anyone’s curious about what a Qzone is, you can come to mine to have a look:http://234063585.q-zone.qq.com. The server’s far away (not to mention overfilled and crappy with constant breakdowns) and most of the data is retrieved and processed client-side so don’t be surprised if it loads for half a minute.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:09 am | Comment

i write a short post about the Peking Opera performance in LiYuan theatre last night at the teahouse.

the play added a lot of kungfu in order to entertain the audience, most of which are foreign tourists, and the 1st floor becomes a big dinning hall with tables full of food and tea, guess that helps the theatre increase the box revenue

saddly, beijing becomes an ugly city with a lot of “mordern” things, still hard to find enough time to tour the newest (to me!) hot places

September 7, 2005 @ 1:10 am | Comment

Dear Other Lisa
Thanks for the debriefing, I enjoyed reading articles and comments on the Peking duck since 2003 (although not quite frequently), and had the impression that Mr. Mark Anthony Jones was on good terms with Richard (most of the comments I read were his), I’d appreciate it if you could give me the address to the article/s I missed out on.

I hope whatever the problem is won’t cause the Pekingduck to be blocked by The Firewall, it’s slow enough to access it as it is from my house (perhaps due to the layers and layers of filtering networks added? They often had to stop internet services for “upgrades” that made surfing even slower)

Dear Gordon, and everyone else with a few minutes to kill and NO FOOD OR DRINK IN THEIR MOUTHS

If you’re interested in having the Japanese style English lesson, you can go to this site page to read the article: http://tinyurl.com/dlten

At least all the words are spelt correctly. The biggest IM software and service provider in China – Tencent, sells GIF image furnishings for their version of Cyworld–uncopyrighted of course– Qzone, with typos such as “ture love” for 1Yuan a piece:
(I pointed out the embarrassing typo to customer service a looooong time ago, no change)

The Qzone has become quite popular among kids here, it’s sort of a BLOG with a message board system and photo album built right in, one of the most important factors of its popularity (near monopolization of the IM market in China aside) is its customizability, you can decorate your own blog with lots and lots of superficial money-wasting memory and CPU swallowing animated GIFs placed anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even blocking the navigational buttons. You can also create your own blocks with HTML supporting content, as many as you’d like (I think MSN spaces should do this too)

BTW, if anyone’s curious about what a Qzone is, you can come to mine to have a look: http://234063585.q-zone.qq.com . The server’s far away (not to mention overfilled and crappy with constant breakdowns) and most of the data is retrieved and processed client-side so don’t be surprised if it loads for half a minute.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:13 am | Comment

Garn, dammed if I know. I had the exact same problem the other night. It had something to do with cutting and pasting in my case, so I figure there was some code embedded in what I was copying that screwed things up. I’m trying to remember how I ended up fixing it…

OH. I think for some reason I needed to approve my own comment. I’ll check the site and see if yours is hung up for some reason.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:15 am | Comment

Garn, I’m going to go in and fix one thing in your comment. We’ve figured out that really long links tend to make the comments hard to read. There’s a couple of ways around this. You can either use HTML and turn it into a hot link, or you can go to a site, http://www.tinyurl.com where you can take really long links and they’ll create a short version for you.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:19 am | Comment

Oh wow…I just went to the “english learning” website Garn mentions…priceless!

September 7, 2005 @ 1:25 am | Comment

Glad you agree, It was the article deemed imflaming and dangerous by the board monitors of dvbbs.net

September 7, 2005 @ 1:29 am | Comment

hope it works~

Dear Other Lisa
Thanks for the debriefing, I enjoyed reading articles and comments on the Peking duck since 2003 (although not quite frequently), and had the impression that Mr. Mark Anthony Jones was on good terms with Richard (most of the comments I read were his), I’d appreciate it if you could give me the address to the article/s I missed out on.

I hope whatever the problem is won’t cause the Pekingduck to be blocked by The Firewall, it’s slow enough to access it without having to use a proxy server (perhaps due to the layers and layers of filtering networks added? They often had to stop internet services for “upgrades” that made surfing even slower)(I’m in china most of the time, even though the IP says Canada)

Dear Gordon, and everyone else with a few minutes to kill and NO FOOD OR DRINK IN THEIR MOUTHS

If you’re interested in having the Japanese style English lesson, you can go to this site page to read the article: Click Please

At least all the words are spelt correctly. The biggest IM software and service provider in China – Tencent, sells GIF image furnishings for their version of Cyworld–uncopyrighted of course– Qzone, with typos such as “ture love” for 1Yuan a piece:
(I pointed out the embarrassing typo to customer service a looooong time ago, no change)

The Qzone has become quite popular among kids here, it’s sort of a BLOG with a message board system and photo album built right in, one of the most important factors of its popularity (near monopolization of the IM market in China aside) is its customizability, you can decorate your own blog with lots and lots of superficial money-wasting memory and CPU swallowing animated GIFs placed anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even blocking the navigational buttons. You can also create your own blocks with HTML supporting content, as many as you’d like (I think MSN spaces should do this too)

BTW, if anyone’s curious about what a Qzone is, you can come to mine to have a look:Click Here. The server’s far away (not to mention overfilled and crappy with constant breakdowns) and most of the data is retrieved and processed client-side so don’t be surprised if it loads for half a minute.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:31 am | Comment

that’s absurd. I mean, it’s just funny. I love stuff like that.

I have a book on beijing street language that gives some funny examples of westerners butchering mandarin, for that matter…

Garn, you can go here for a partial explanation of the whole mess mentioned earlier.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:31 am | Comment

Yeah, I’ll see if I can get this to show up though, tinyurled them all:

Dear Gordon, and everyone else with a few minutes to kill and NO FOOD OR DRINK IN THEIR MOUTHS

If you’re interested in having the Japanese style English lesson, you can go to this site page to read the article: http://tinyurl.com/dlten

At least all the words are spelt correctly. The biggest IM software and service provider in China – Tencent, sells GIF image furnishings for their version of Cyworld–uncopyrighted of course– Qzone, with typos such as “ture love” for 1Yuan a piece:
(I pointed out the embarrassing typo to customer service a looooong time ago, no change)

The Qzone has become quite popular among kids here, it’s sort of a BLOG with a message board system and photo album built right in, one of the most important factors of its popularity (near monopolization of the IM market in China aside) is its customizability, you can decorate your own blog with lots and lots of superficial money-wasting memory and CPU swallowing animated GIFs placed anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even blocking the navigational buttons. You can also create your own blocks with HTML supporting content, as many as you’d like (I think MSN spaces should do this too)

BTW, if anyone’s curious about what a Qzone is, you can come to mine to have a look:Click Here. The server’s far away (not to mention overfilled and crappy with constant breakdowns) and most of the data is retrieved and processed client-side so don’t be surprised if it loads for half a minute.

September 7, 2005 @ 1:36 am | Comment

Thanks Garn. I’ll check this all out in the AM. So is this what you’ve linked to in URLs in the comment box?

Past my bedtime here in LA. Hope you all are having a great Wednesday…

September 7, 2005 @ 1:41 am | Comment

Garn, I’m about to sign off, but I went to check your blog and the link was for the “english learning” site…

September 7, 2005 @ 1:46 am | Comment

whoops, that last link was supposed to be: http://tinyurl.com/cgvxb

I just read through the July 11th article, it is disturbing…I considered his comments to have been a big contribution to this site, this feeling must have been simular to the one Atkins dieters felt when the diet’s creator was exposed

September 7, 2005 @ 2:01 am | Comment

Yeah I should go to bed too
BTW this tinyurl thing is amazing!

September 7, 2005 @ 2:08 am | Comment

How does everyone feel about the California Gay Marriage legislation?

September 7, 2005 @ 3:26 am | Comment

What joy! Simonworld’s Daily Linklets are back!

Welcome back Simon. Feels like you’ve be away for ages mate.

September 7, 2005 @ 3:38 am | Comment

What, is it required now? If I want to stay straight, do I have to leave California?

September 7, 2005 @ 3:46 am | Comment

Yep. You heard it correctly. Gay marriage is mandatory in California now. The end of civilization as we know it.

September 7, 2005 @ 3:53 am | Comment

otherlisa: Continue your policy of deleting comments that are only used to sabotage the message board written by people who constantly declare their hatred of thi site and yet return again and again to continue the same stalker-like behaviour. I would have been very scared had I been in Richard’s shoes, and such comments only serve to give them the opportunity to feed their insecurities.
Bingfeng- I live in houhai; hate the place. Absolutely taken over by rickshaws and traffic and loud noise pumping across the lake. But if you’re ever in the neighbourhood weekends or when I’m not so exhausted from work, I’ll treat you to a couple of beers.

September 7, 2005 @ 4:52 am | Comment

Shulan, are you still in Berlin?

September 7, 2005 @ 5:18 am | Comment

How does everyone feel about the California Gay Marriage legislation?

:-D :-D :-D

I think a lot of Americans are under the impression that gay marriage or civil unions are some kind of novelty that only American gays are pushing for. Actually, the US is one of the few remaining industrialized western nations without either nationally (currently one state has marriage, six states plus DC have civil unions). In fact, many US states are actually going in the opposite direction, with voters approving constitutional amendments to insure that gay are locked out of marriage, and in some cases, even locked out of civil unions.

CURRENT STATUS
The following nations currently have gay marriage:
- Netherlands
- Belgium
- Canada
- Spain

And these have gay civil unions:
- UK
- France
- Germany
- Switzerland
- Portugual
- Denmark
- Finland
- Norway
- Sweden
- Luxembourg
- New Zealand
- Isreal
- South Africa
- Greenland
- Iceland
- Hungary
- Croatia
- Andorra
- Slovenia

And these countries have gay civil unions or marriage in some areas:
- Argentina
- Australia
- Italy
- Brazil
- USA (seven states + DC, hopefully to include California very soon)

Source: Wikipedia.com — http://tinyurl.com/8cp8h

As far as I know, “traditional” marriage has not yet collapsed in any of those nations (although I admit I may be a little out of touch with the cultural affairs of Andorra {grin} )

September 7, 2005 @ 5:31 am | Comment

Slim, I think traditional marriage collapsed about 25 years ago anyway, and is probably on the upswing by now. It’s unlikely to make a jot or a tittle of difference, but it makes a dandy talking….er….shrieking point.

I do have a serious question though, and this may be pertinent to some of the backroom debate: Does a new class of spouses create a new batch of Social Security liabilities (and other financial benefits, maybe)? I don’t care who marries whom, but I can see some legitimate aversion to new burdens on the budget.

September 7, 2005 @ 5:57 am | Comment

Garn, you kept getting the error message because you had too many URLs in a single comment. Often spam comments include long lists of URLs and this helkps filter them out. I’ll try to adjust the settings to make life easier.

September 7, 2005 @ 7:49 am | Comment

According to the Independent U.K. Barbara Bush actually said that many of the hurricane victims were “Underpriviledged anyway, so this is working very well for them. What I’m hearing,which is sort of scary, is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality” She seems to possess her husband’s charm, good sense and class as well.WTF is WRONG with these people?

September 7, 2005 @ 7:51 am | Comment

Sorry her Son’s charm etc…….

September 7, 2005 @ 7:53 am | Comment

Hi, Richard, is that really you?

September 7, 2005 @ 8:46 am | Comment

Yes, it’s me. I staggered in late last night, only slept about four hours due to serious jetlag and am trying to get readjusted. I will try to write up a trip report today on my entire experience of the past 16 days.

September 7, 2005 @ 8:51 am | Comment

Richard, good to hear you are back and assumedly well and healthy.

I have a bit of a complaint about your filters. I did a very short comment on a business sign I see in GZ, but got it blocked.

I am trying to see if the word will go through — ‘fartess”.

September 7, 2005 @ 9:21 am | Comment

Send me the comment and I will post it, and I’ll try to correct the filter. Thanks.

September 7, 2005 @ 9:32 am | Comment

A business sign in GZ:

“Pharmacy for Health Fartess”

Eye catching. For scatological value only.

September 7, 2005 @ 9:46 am | Comment

Hi Richard!

Thanks Keir, appreciate your support. Nobody wants to censor, but when people are posting under multiple handles and using those to attack, it crosses the line. I think an assumption we’d like to make here is that we can have just a little trust in the members of this “community.” That kind of behavior violates it.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:08 am | Comment

THE HYDROCEPHALIC BOY IN SICHUAN

This last weekend with Labor Day off I made my second trip to Xichang, Sichuan to see about the hydrocephalic boy. See a comment I posted on TPD about 3-4 weeks ago. Now I have the parents verbal permission to post photos of him on the Net. (Richard, I will send one to if you want to post it.) I have sent a photo to Gordon at THM and he is at liberty to post it on his site.

Gordon I cannot access you tonight or I would have sent this permission to you directly and also posted these comments on THM. BTW, Gordon has been good help and support for me to try to get aid for the boy.

The family was very happy to see me. Very poor. The maternal grandfather was emotionally overwhelmed by my willingness to help the child. They offered to kill a small pig to feed me lunch. These people are rather poor as I said. I declined the death of the pig, but later was offered lunch again and told it was Yi people’s custom and way of showing honor to provide a meal. At that, I had no choice, but got them to kill only two chickens.

I got the xrays the hosiptal in Xichang taken when I was there last time and the written evaluation. On 9/5 I went to the Sichuan Provincial Hospital in Chengdu and actually got to talk to the doctors who would probably do the surgery to treat the boy if he is treated there. After looking at the xrays these two doctors were of the opinion that there was only a small chance of treating the boy and obtaining a positive outcome. I told them the parents want treatment and the doctors agreed if so they would do it. The good news was they said they might be able to get funds for treatment from the government. Not holding my breath.

This weekend I will make a call on Zhongshan Medical School Hospital here in GZ and get a second opinion.

The people in Xichang I came into contact with about the boy were very, very helpful and voluntarily went out of their ways to assist me. I had a teacher come with me to translate for me with the parents. A policeman, a station chief, drove us to the village outside Xichang where the boy lived. Probably he was to keep an eye on me, but he also implicitly gave me face and authority as well as security.

More to come. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome especially about raising money if necessary.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:18 am | Comment

Pete, we need to contact further. I did not realize the boy was Yi.

I have some strong and influential contacts with YI people and I will put the ball in motion either tomorrow or Friday.

I am going to need specific information so that the family can be contacted directly.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:28 am | Comment

Pete, I have a friend here in Chengdu that is a Professor at one of the Universities and he is a member of the Yi minority. I just sent a text message to another friend of mine that is also of the YI people and I will let you know what comes about.

Damn, I wish I knew that info before. Sorry I didn’t think to ask.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:39 am | Comment

Pete, you are a great man.
Indeed, and in principle, government has some funding for this kind of situation. I have mentioned here that the department is called MING ZHENG BU. The local department is called MING ZHENG JU, which accept donations from all over the world for such kind of issue. They also have cooperation with large foundations and orgnizations such as DOCTORS WITHOUT BOARDS. If local doctors really want to help, you have a good chance to get funding for the operation. I feel happy and sad that you are helping this kid. Without the crucial help from a foreigner(you), the ignored family might have no chance to deal with it ever.

September 7, 2005 @ 11:36 am | Comment

This post wants to propose a very new idea that may interest some of the democracy-lovers and anti-china people on the forum.

First, democracy-lovers and anti-china groups have been cursing at the Chinese government for decades, and even to this day, we are still not so clear as to what exactly those groups want. Perhaps most of those groups are made of humanities majors, and have relatively poor abilities to consolide ideas into actionable proposals.

Well that’s no matter, I can help some of them today and say for them what they want. From some of the groups’ common slogans such as “Chinese government is evil”, “down with red China!”. It is not hard to deduce that they believe that the Chinese government is not a good government, and that it wants to replace the government.

So, it seems that the they believe that the “senior management team” that runs China is ineffective, and that a new management team is needed to run China better.

Well today, I want to act as a spokesperson for China, and I will admit that the current management team is indeed very ineffective, and a new management team is needed. So, let’s start looking for new management.

First, we agree that given China’s size, population, and complexity, running that country is not a simple task. So any new management team we want must be very capable, very smart, and hopefully had previous experience in running “big and complex things”. Now, since democracy-lovers and anti-China groups are the ones that proposed the idea of changing management, can you help me look for a new team? Does any of your group intend to be this new team and run China? If any of you do want to try it out, perhaps I can organize an interview for you, and you and your group and come into my house, and maybe we can talk more in detail?

Now you may say “Math! we just want to topple the Chinese government, why do we need an interview?!?!”. Well, as I said, running China is a very tough and complex job, and even if you don’t care about China, I at least do. So I want to make sure that after displacing the current management team, the new team will be better, and can do an effective job. Just like when Kerry was running against Bush in the US election, many people criticized him for being very loud, but has no real policy or alternatives. So anyway, in this interview, I may ask you to present a detailed plan on certain issues in China. For example, I may ask you, “what are your ideas on solving the high-unemployment issue in China?”. “what are your plans for health-care reform in China?”, “what are your plans for reducing income gaps between urban and rural areas in China?”. I do not want some slogans, but detailed plans. So maybe I can give you these questions 1 week before your interview, and you can come to the interview with some detailed platform so I can review them? If any of you are interested, I can certainly organize such an interview, and we can just do it in my house. I can even treat you a nice dinner, and you can meet my family. Don’t worry, it will a very relaxed atmosphere, you do not even have to wear a suit.

Now, if you say “How the hell would I know how to run China! I just want to curse at the Chinese government! and I hope it dies!”. Then, well if you just wanted to curse at the government, you are free to of course. But make sure don’t do it in public, otherwise you may be viewed as someone who just fled a mental institution.

Also, for that interview, if you or your group don’t want that job, then perhaps you can refer someone to me? I mean, you are the one who suggested toppling the current team in China, so it’s not too much to ask you to help me find a new team, right?

If you don’t want to help me, that’s fine also. Maybe I can post this open position in Monster.com, and maybe the position name would be “Seeking senior management team to run the People’s Republic of China.” Of course, since this is a high-level job, the requirments will be very tough. The applicant must have previous experience in running another country, or maybe another big organization/corporation. For example, the Democratic Party of the US may see this open position on Monster.com, and they may want to try it out, since they are out of a job anyway. I believe if they applied, they may be a very strong candidate. They can say on their resume that they had half a century of experience in running the USA, and turned the USA into the world’s number-one power today. They can give me some detailed info on their govering philosophy, their party structure, their financing information, etc etc etc. Or the Nationalist Party in Taiwan may also be a good candidate, since they not only have experience in running Taiwan, but they are Chinese descent, and have cultural advantages.

If the management team of a big corporation like Microsoft or Sony applied for this job, I think they may also be good candidates. Even though they have not run countries, they have run big corporations, and I think those experiences may be very relevant. So depending how the interview goes, they also have a good shot at this job.

But, if I post this open position online, and after a year, no one applied. Or after a year, a lot of people applied, but most are jobless males who can barely read, or some anti-China groups whose only experience was writing dramatic slogans like “Down with Red China!”. Then I’m sorry, perhaps there is no suitable candidate for this job. And we may have no choice but to continue the current team in China, until we find a better candidate. Do you really want me to hire a group of people with no experience for such an important job?

So anyway, if some of your democracy-lovers and anti-China groups are interested in this proposal, you can contact me to either interview you, or you can give me a list of potential candidates and I’ll contact them, or I can post a job opening online. What do you think? Well you are the ones who wanted this, so you have to help me!!!

September 7, 2005 @ 3:12 pm | Comment

Bingfeng already nominated me for Mayor, thank you.

September 7, 2005 @ 3:36 pm | Comment

I don’t know where to start with that ‘Math’ guy (besides checking that IP address). If the gov’t has to block websites and prevent its people from learning IT’S NOT WORKING. If peasants are forced to fight 60,000-man battles to get the land the gov’t took to give greedy companies to destroy the last remaining water suply and the shrinking 7% arable land IT’S NOT WORKING. If people feel the need to blow themselves up in buses to protest the inability for the gov’t to provide them with basic healthcare, when women have lives in such dire misery that their only way out is to consume rat poison, when their husbands see that they can thank the fact their wives are still alive because the quality of the poison is so negligible as to be worthless THE GOV’T ISN’T WORKING. If it sees the need to execute 4,000 people per annum (without proper right to apeal), occupy other regions and lie about the reasons, and stir up trouble against neighbouring gov’ts to distract its people from the truth, IT IS TIME FOR A NEW GOVERNMENT.
What would I do? What a bloody stupid question! I don’t even speak the bloody language! I’m only a humanities teacher, not an economist etc. Well, I guess I share that with Mao who was in charge and knew nothing about anything. But with the level of homogony of the people and control over them the gov’t has, why not try democracy? Can’t say it doesn’t work in India etc because China is not India. All I know is the CCP has devastated this nation and its people through evil ambition, incompetence and sheer carelessness for its citizens. After 60 years, it shows it clearly does not work (unless you’re among the rich getting richer who happen to be in the minority). We’re now at the point the KMT would have taken us decades ago without the GLB, the CR, the TSM etc.
Tell you what mate: Instead of casually disregarding all the poverty and misery (which no doubt you don’t see as probably some well-to-do expat in a consultancy firm or something) for a nonsense proposition, why not start addressing some of the problems and individually try to solve each one. One way to start is to get the truth out which this site does. You, a fascist apologist, have no problem with the gov’t preventing the truth of its problems because either you’re a contrarian or simoky in thrall with autocratic regimes. Richard et al. are saying enough of this 60 year silence. The Internet’s here, the CCP has to be woken up, and this is one small site that with others will provide a clarion call for justice.

September 7, 2005 @ 5:25 pm | Comment

Sam_S asked:

I do have a serious question though, and this may be pertinent to some of the backroom debate: Does a new class of spouses create a new batch of Social Security liabilities (and other financial benefits, maybe)?

Yes, but in the US (not sure elsewhere) the costs have not been significant because the number of people actually obtaining gay marriages and civil unions is dwarfed by the overwhelmingly straight majority.

Secondly, don’t forget that gay people are taxpayers, too. They have long been paying for benefits for straight people’s spouses. I don’t recall any straight people ever calling for a gay tax exemption to remedy that inequality.

Lastly, I don’t think any basic human right (how many things are more basic than marriage?) should be denied a group because of cost, unless the cost is extreme and the benefit trivial. Sam_S, can I ask if you would be willing to give up your marriage to save the nation the tax money that might potentially be spent benefitting your wife? :-)

September 7, 2005 @ 7:27 pm | Comment

This is Richard (remember me?). I promised to put up a “trip report” today but am still too jet lagged to even know what planet I’m on. I managed to pound out two short new posts below, but I promise, the full story of my excellent adventure in greater China is on the way. Please be patient. And to everyone I met in China – I haven’t had time yet to send you emails thanking you for the wonderful meetings, but they, too, are on the way. Travelling is hard work (something our president would say) and I need another day to recover. Meanwhile, I hope Martyn and Lisa will continue to hold the fort as magnificently as they have over the past two weeks. Good night, and stay tuned.

September 7, 2005 @ 9:41 pm | Comment

Math, I nominate the little old Chinese lady who runs the corner shop. Yeah, you know, that one with the sleeve protectors.

September 7, 2005 @ 9:53 pm | Comment

Keir take it easy on Math. It was a brilliant piece trying to humorously expose the some of the hypocracy and difficulties of outsiders pushing regime change. It doesn’t seem to work for Bush.

Actually, I would propose Saddam for the interview with Math. He has run a difficult country, he has kept the worst elements of Islam a bay for years and he could be made available with the US’s cooperation. Put him on a short leash and see what he could do.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:02 pm | Comment

Lin, thank you for the complement, but the reality is not so grand. I just had the opportunity, the interest to help a human survive (hopefully) and some funds to be able to get some help started. The real great person will be the surgeon who can perform a miracle to treat the boy so he has some semblance of an improved, long life.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:09 pm | Comment

Secondly, don’t forget that gay people are taxpayers, too. They have long been paying for benefits for straight people’s spouses. I don’t recall any straight people ever calling for a gay tax exemption to remedy that inequality.

This is a good point. The net cost is about zero, considering this. I was just wondering how much of the behind-the-scenes wrangling is more concerned with funding issues than moral. Probably not much, now that I think of it.

September 7, 2005 @ 10:56 pm | Comment

Bingfeng has posted something interesting about democracy reform in China:

‘after Premier Wen’s remarks on further advancing democracy in china, people are excited and start to discuss the “roadmap” of democratization, one interesting idea is about “special democracy zone”, which suggests that china should first test those practices in one area and then expand the model to the rest of the country. obviously it was inspired by the idea of “special economic zone” and has its merits.
but the underlying presumption of the idea of SDZ is that democracy enhances the social and economic development, this is exactly what practical, result-oriented chinese people expect from democracy. but what if it doesn’t come out that way? the true value of democracy is not to help the society beome better but to prevent it from the worst. will a SDZ show this to the chinese people in the short run?
and which part of the country should become a SDZ? developed or less developed region? rural or urban? …….. ‘

I dont know when this SDZ will be taking place. While I welcome Premier wen’s idea. I myself as a mainlander seriouly dont think this is an going to be an easy task. I sincerely hope you guys can enlighten me on this.

p.s. pingfeng, good job, that’s a very good thread. keep it up and stay cool.

September 8, 2005 @ 12:39 am | Comment

Yeah- I didn’t mean to go over the top Pete. It’s just I’m sure it’s by the same guy who goes on and on about how much he loves China, how nasty Richard is for mentioning its problems, and using the same facile arguments to put down any criticism. I wouldn’t advocate regime change but such arguments only help the CCP justify the craven hold on power without any nod to accountancy or transparency. Power for the sake of power.
I did hope for regime change in Iraq (and in Zimbabwe while we’re at it) but didn’t agree on the means.

September 8, 2005 @ 1:55 am | Comment

no actual comments on Sanlitun? I went there this past weekend for old times sake, never, ever, ever again!

September 8, 2005 @ 2:11 am | Comment

When I first went there 3 years ago it struck me a lovely, quiet place with some intriguing bars (no more than a dozen). Now it’s Blackpool on the lake.

September 8, 2005 @ 2:31 am | Comment

Math, you’ve made an excellent point on “we are still not so clear as to what exactly those groups want” with the rest of your presumtious article.

I think some provincial governors(/presidents) of Taiwan would take the job if you really ask him, I hear Taiwanese people like seafood, I suggest bringing a lobster.

And about the “Well you are the ones who wanted this, so you have to help me!!!”. I’d love to, but my baby cousin just offered to help with my algebra homework, please allow me to indulge him first.

Dear Richard and Other Lisa,
Please delete my repeating messages for me now that the filter’s working and they’re all showing up, leave whichever one on as you choose.

September 8, 2005 @ 3:02 am | Comment

Pete, have you considered Chinese chatrooms and bullitin boards(I could help with that)?

They’re crammed with people, mostly kids with too much allowence that would most likely be blown on online games.

They might not believe you at first since there are so00 MANY scammers out there, but if you could show them the pictures I’m sure they’ll show their compassion. They can probably use their parents’ bank account to send money (anyone has better ideas?).

It might be helpful to make a page with the names of the donors listed, means of donating money and contact information given, pictures and medical information of the boy posted, and maybe a few paragraphs on the warmhearted foreiner/s

September 8, 2005 @ 3:30 am | Comment

NOTE from Richard: IP address shows this comment was placed by Mark Anthoy Jones and has been deleted.

September 8, 2005 @ 3:46 am | Comment

Deleted, and commenter is respectfully requested not to comment on this site again. Thank you.

September 8, 2005 @ 3:57 am | Comment

“now that the filter’s working”
I mean now that the filter’s changed

September 8, 2005 @ 4:25 am | Comment

NOTE from Richard: IP address shows this comment was placed by Mark Anthoy Jones and has been deleted.
Posted by at September 8, 2005 03:46 AM

Um…how come some of Mark Anthony Jones’ comments are deleted and some aren’t? Or did Mark post this message as it is without entering the name?

and this comment:

Mark’s comments have been deleted by Other Lisa, because he has consistently violated the very basic rules as stated at the top of every thread.

I’m sorry to do this, Mark. But enough’s enough.

I’ll pass on your message to Richard.
Posted by Mark Anthony Jones at September 6, 2005 11:07 PM

is confusing

September 8, 2005 @ 4:39 am | Comment

Garn, I was away until today and have not been able to oversee all the comments of the past two weeks. When I see Madge’s comments I’ll delete them, as he has created a huge amount of mischief and even today he continues to use fake identities.

September 8, 2005 @ 4:43 am | Comment

Richard,

What, you “respectfully requested” that verminous psychotic not to comment again? Respectfully? Wow, man, you’re even more respectful than a Buddhist monk, toward ALL forms of life no matter how low. :-)

Good to “see” you here again, and congrats on your journey and arrival.
I just got settled in my own new place a few days ago, very happy here.

September 8, 2005 @ 4:44 am | Comment

Samdl, quoting Bingfeng, wrote:

one interesting idea is about “special democracy zone”, which suggests that china should first test those practices in one area and then expand the model to the rest of the country.

I thought China already had a Special Democratic Zone, somewhere just south of the Kowloon Peninsula … however I was under the impression Beijing felt there was rather too much democracy happening there. :-(

September 8, 2005 @ 8:57 am | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/dsyvt

What happened to the rank after May?

September 8, 2005 @ 6:28 pm | Comment

I thought China already had a Special Democratic Zone, somewhere just south of the Kowloon Peninsula … however I was under the impression Beijing felt there was rather too much democracy happening there. :-(

Posted by Shanghai Slim at September 8, 2005 08:57 AM

—————-

actually there are two, HongKong and Taiwan, however, their experiences are always considered not that much relevent to mainland china due to their special situations

i personally think the Taiwan experiences are more valuable to us than the HK ones, but still they are quite unique

September 8, 2005 @ 7:18 pm | Comment

Garn that chart is way off – August was my busiest month of traffic ever (see my site meter for the numbers).

September 8, 2005 @ 7:37 pm | Comment

Whoa, 70 thousand visits per month!
Maybe you should think about the T-shirts then, huh?
Wonder if alexa’s cheating on you’re rank because of the site’s content, or is it because most visitors interested in these articles use firefox?

September 8, 2005 @ 11:26 pm | Comment

Sorry, that was supposed to be “your rank”

September 8, 2005 @ 11:26 pm | Comment

That 70,000 was unique for August, when I got a nice link from Atrios and several others (also Instapundit, thanks to Martyn). Monthly traffic is usually closer to 40,000.

September 8, 2005 @ 11:31 pm | Comment

Might I suggest you to consider using another site meter for this site: Cocoon Counter 6

It’s a free ASP based site counter, it has almost all the functions as the one you’re using now except for “world map”, “exit pages” and “traffic predictioin”, it also has Refferal ranking (free, can’t believe they charge for that), and shows you the client’s Browser, Operating System and screen resoulution information
The only drawback is that the user interface is in chinese.

You can see for yourself: http://tinyurl.com/dj2pb

It has no ADs because you’d be storing it on your own server (no server-side installatino required). Alternatively, you can also register an account on someone else’s Coccon, but the site that provides this program does not host these services, make sure the site isn’t likely to suddenly shut down.

The program’s download address is:
http://tinyurl.com/77r3q

September 8, 2005 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

Sometimes I edit my message then read it again after it’s been posted to find the changes I made created embarrasing grammer errors…sorry about that

September 8, 2005 @ 11:54 pm | Comment

This is one of a series of essays I have written over the years. The original text can be found at:

http://forums.offtopic.com/showthread.php?t=1836919

An Analysis Of the Legality Of the 1989 Student Movement in Tiananmen
—————————————-

Many people’s discussions of the 1989 Tiananment Incident revolve around the following questions:

1) Were the students’ actions a legitimate democratic movement, or was it a counter-revolutionary riot?
2) Were the students actions illegal?
3) Were the government’s actions illegal?

Of course you now will say “Math, the evil red communist Chinkna is a dictatorship, and the gov’t decides what is legal or not!!!”. Well, all right, then this post will take the perspective of a Western “modern” legal system.

First, people say that the students actions were not a counter-revolutionary riot, therefore it was illegal to suppress the students. But I believe that a riot is not the only conditition suitable for suppresion.

According to American laws, if a citizen obstructs and resists the police officer’s efforts at enforcing laws, then he/she can be arrested, using violence if necessary. I remember there are many cases in New York where an old man is stopped by the police on the streets, and has trouble hearing what the police is saying and yells back at the police and does not follow the police’s instructions, and he was pressed against the police-car and handcuffed, and as a result has a heart attack and dies. And the police officer is not punished, because the officer was considered to be doing a perfectly legal thing.

Therefore, it is not necessary for your actions to reach the level of “rioting” for you to be “dealt with” by force. In fact, as soon as your actions create the effects of disturbing social order and resisting instructions from authorities, then you can be “dealt with”.

Now, I think it is clear that we can divide the 1989 Incident into two questions:

1) Was the gov’t's suppression of the students legal?
2) Were the methods of suppression appropriate?

It is entirely possible that the gov’t's suppression was legal, but it would’ve been more appropriate if it used tear gases and sticks, rather than automatic weapons.

Therefore, the second question is not a very precise and legal one, and if you want to discuss whether the gov’t is too rough or too gentle in their methods, then of course you can discuss it all you want.

But the first question is very precise and this post wants to focus on the first question. If you ask me “math, I want to talk about the second question!”. Unfortunately, I do not want to discuss the second question right now, maybe next time.

I think we can reach certain conclusions about the first question:

1) The students’ actions have created considerable inteferrence with the government’s daily affairs in running the city of Beijing.

The students surrounded the gov’t office buildings, refusing to leave and paralyzing traffic around the buildings and preventing the gov’t from working. Is this an illegal act, just by common sense? Of course it is. The students forced the gov’t to “dialog” and forced the gov’t to accept their “conditions”. In a modern society, a citizen does not have the right to “force” an authority to do anything, only authorities have the rights (police, judges, etc). to force citizens to do things. The students also built a massive statue of liberty in Tiananmen Square, constructing buildings without permit from appropriate agencies are also clearly illegal, anywhere in the world. Finally, the students built road blocks to disrupt police cars from travelling, this is is also highly illegal, just by common sense.

And of course lastly, having 2000 people occupy a public square and surrouding gov’t buildings for months without permission and refusing to leave is clearly an illegal act, any 10-year-old can see that.

Now you may say “The students were simply keeping order by themselves!”. Well, I’m sorry, but in any modern society, a citizen does not have the power to take the role of law enforcement officials and keep order in a city, unless he is delegated to do so (for example, a road construction worker on a highway). Can a civillain force a car to stop because the car was speeding? Of course not, even if the car was indeed speeding.

So the claim that “the students were keeping order by themselves” is in itself an indication of the students’ illegality.

Clearly, now we see that the gov’t's decision to “deal with the students” by force was 100% legal, given the numerous illegal acts (some were highly illegal, others were moderately illegal) by the students.

Now, perhaps you feel very angry and yell at me “Math! The students were simply demanding freedom and wanted democracy!”. Well first, I have said many times that I do not like the word “freedom” or “democracy” because I don’t know exactly what do you mean by them. But it is ok, because it does not matter what the students were demanding, they could be demanding for more dictatorship and less freedom.

Whatever their “slogans” are, as long as they have conducted illegal actions, then the gov’t has every legal right to take actions to enforce laws. And those laws, like I said, are discussed from a Western’s legal perspective in case you believe China’s laws are arbitrary.

If we take the 1989 events, and keep everything the same except the slogans: imagine that the students were asking the gov’t to arrest and kill every westerner living in China at the time, much like in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900′s. And they shouted that the gov’t was oppressive because it refused talk to them about killing all foreigners, and they started surrounding gov’t buildings, blockading traffic, and starting hunger strikes, and refused to leave until the gov’t concedes. Now, will you still think the students’ movement were a democratic movement and their demands should be met?

September 9, 2005 @ 12:41 am | Comment

Ohhh…too tired to comment on the above. Except to state the obvious, that the TS protestors were not advocating violence and that their sentiments were fundamentally patriotic, for the most part.

Whenever somebody gets so freaked out by the concept of democracy, I gotta wonder what’s really going on…

September 9, 2005 @ 12:45 am | Comment

Yes, I would agree that the majority of the students during the protests were well-intentioned and wanted the best for China, and even former Premier Zhu Rong Ji said to CNN during an interview that “The students back in 1989 were fighting for the same things that my generation fought for China decades ago. On that point, we affirm the patriotism of the students, and we made that very clear”.

Unfortunately, the good-intention and naivety of 99% of the students were hijacked by 1% of the “student leaders” who really wanted to use this as their own political platform. And it was no exaggeration to say that those student leaders colluded with foreign forces (eg, CIA, anti-China forces in Japan, etc etc) and really wanted to see the Chinese government collapse.

September 9, 2005 @ 12:49 am | Comment

the above is written by me.

September 9, 2005 @ 12:51 am | Comment

Math, I do think some of the student leaders got engulfed by their own egos. That often happens in any kind of movement. I think that they lacked the wisdom to compromise when they should have and that this helped set the stage for tragedy. I do think that if the Chinese leadership at the time had been more nimble-footed and not so ideologically divided, the tragedy could have been avoided also.

If you’ve read my comments and posts on this blog, you’ll know that I tend to be very skeptical of many aspects of my (American) government, but I actually doubt that the CIA had much to do with TS, if anything. The movement took almost everyone by surprise. And frankly, if there is a faction in the American government that is threatened by “China’s rise” (or more accurately, needs a big enemy to justify the big military machine), there is a larger faction whose economic interests are tied up in China and with China’s well-being. China and the US are in a mutually dependent relationship in many ways.

September 9, 2005 @ 1:03 am | Comment

I do agree with your assessment that China-US are too interdependent to start any serious conflict.

For for the students, I think they are more than just “engulfed by their egos”. Just look at each of the those “student leaders” today. Each of them live luxurious and rich lives in the West, none of them actually is working for the people of China that they claimed they cared so much about.

One of the student leaders, Chai Ling, infamously said in 1989 (paraphrase), “Bloodshed? Bloodshed is good, we want the government to shoot us, only bloodshed will cause enough of a incident…” I think this captures the psychology of that “movement”

September 9, 2005 @ 1:10 am | Comment

Math, agreed, except that not all the student leaders did very well in the States for quite a long time. I am spacing on the fellow’s name, but he had a long and difficult adjustment and was working as a dishwasher for a time. I think he’s doing well now.

I remember that time very vividly as I was thinking of going back to China for the first time since 1979. The Chinese students here that I met were devastated. It was as if all of their hopes had been raised and then cruelly dashed.

As for Chai Ling, well, I certainly don’t agree, but you could make a very long list of revolutionaries and patriots of many countries who’ve said similar things, particularly in China’s recent history…like Mao Zedong, to give one big example.

I’ve always said that revolutionary romanticism is a very dangerous sentiment indeed…

September 9, 2005 @ 1:21 am | Comment

oops, sorry. One of the points I meant to make is that after TS, there was huge disappointment in the US, as many people found the students’ movement admirable and brave. So any student leaders who were able to get here were going to find a great deal of support, at least initially. But it took a number of years for some of these leaders to adjust to life here, and some found it easier than others.

September 9, 2005 @ 1:24 am | Comment

Math,
Have you looked up what a western legal system would do to rioters?

If the crowd does not disperse, its members become subject to arrest for the crime of rioting, disturbing the peace, resisting arrest or other separate crimes ranging from assault to unlawful possession of firearms.

–law.com

1) Was the gov’t's suppression of the students legal?
2) Were the methods of suppression appropriate?

But the first question is very precise and this post wants to focus on the first question. If you ask me “math, I want to talk about the second question!”. Unfortunately, I do not want to discuss the second question right now, maybe next time.

Fine, the government had rights to diperse the students. Now you think “Garn! How could you agree! People were supposed to argue endlessly over the first question as I soo00 obviously want them to!”, well, maybe it was your over-willingness to try and sound nonchalant while making excuses to not discuss the second question (this is a pathetic attempt by the way…).

as they have conducted illegal actions, then the gov’t has every legal right to take actions to enforce laws. And those laws, like I said, are discussed from a Western’s legal perspective in case you believe China’s laws are arbitrary
Western laws draw a line between dispersing crowds and slaughtering them, in case you don’t believe me, below are the consequences the students might have to face were they tried from a Western’s legal perspective according to DC law:

Incommoding. This is blocking vehicle or pedestrian traffic on the streets, sidewalks, and other walkways. This is by far the most common charge we see when protestors sit down in the street. Sidewalks are trickier because you generally have a right to engage in free speech activities on the public sidewalks; but if you so clog them that no one else can use the sidewalks, you might be charged with incommoding. Maximum penalty is a $250 fine and/or 90 days in jail. DC Code § 22-1107. The charge of disorderly conduct is essentially the same. DC Code § 22-1121.
Failure to obey a Police Officer. Often called “failure to disperse,” this charge is possible when the police decide to close a street or clear a path and you refuse to move. The order they give you must be “lawful,” which means that if the police issue an unconstitutional order, there is no offense in ignoring it. But police authority is very broad and we won’t know if the order was unconstitutional until trial. If the order turns out to have been lawful and you failed to obey it, you can be fined $100-$1,000. DC Muni. Reg. §§ 18-2000.2 & 2000.10.

Math, you’re wasting your time here. You might make more of an effect on chinese kids (at least they’d know something happend on June 4th).

—————–

students also built a massive statue of liberty in Tiananmen Square

FYI, the statue of liberty and the goddess of democracy are not the same thing. (I could have followed your example of side-stepping more important issues and focusing on meaningless stuff, but you’ve inspired me to write an article argueing the lawfulness of taking the quarters and dimes of people you shoot in an alley behind 7-11)

September 9, 2005 @ 1:41 am | Comment

So now the argument revolved into a technical one: what are the appropriate methods for suppresing citizens. You say that the Chinese government should have used other methods. So it is a discussion of the choice of methods (tear gas, sticks, warning shots, rubber bullets, real bullets, etc etc). But the methods you use is also dependent on how hostile the targets are, how massive the targets are, how damaging their behaviors are, how urgently do they need to be suppressed, etc etc, as well as on the cultural/administrative habits of the gov’t, etc etc.

Well that is a fair discussion. But at least you do agree that the gov’t was justified in taking physical action.

September 9, 2005 @ 1:47 am | Comment

The unelected ‘Chinkna’(?!?!?!) regime acting without any mandate from the people (so enough with the infantile ‘argument’ about what the US would do) ran over defenceless students with tanks. They are still in power and no inquiry is ever intended to be set up, unlike now when the UK investigates its army’s role in killing 14 people back in 1972. All hell broke loose when the Yanks killed 4 people at Kent state- here TSM is a state secret even though there were thousands of casualties.
Math or whatever you’re calling yourself now, since you’re so proud of such barbarism, and no doubt get sexually excited with the prospect of defending the CCP’s torture and enslavement of Buddhist monks in Tibet, why don’t you spend your energy to set up your own website glorifying the Chinese Communist Reich?
I mean, my god- this guy is saying that the Nazis were well in their rights to slaughter the Poles during the warsaw uprising because they were interfering with the Nazis running of the country.
I can’t be bothered to get outraged anymore by the cowardly and craven ass-kissing of fascist regimes. Garn- I suggest you don’t bother either as this guy never responds to anything we say but instead goes into his next monologue and ignores any rebuttals.

September 9, 2005 @ 1:59 am | Comment

Well, look, there’s a distinction to be made between protecting and restoring public order and out and out suppression. I mean, why is it that you can’t talk about this in China in any kind of public forum? That in order for us to discuss it, we have to resort to euphemisms like “TS” and so on?

I keep thinking about the horrors of this last week in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, and I think, with all of the things that went wrong, with the incompetence and criminal negligence that cost so many lives…the only comfort I can take from any of this is that we are discussing it openly. That we have reporters and cameras and newsmen and women on the scene, bearing witness to what happened and telling us the truth. IF not for this, if not for the ability to get information and discuss openly what happened, how could we possibly improve the situation and prevent it from happening again?

What China and China’s people do isn’t up to me. But it’s only logical to me that if a government is afraid to honestly and openly debate controversial events, and if there is no countervailing power to take up that debate in the absence of any honest “self-criticism” on the part of the government, then it is very difficult to move forward to a more just and equitable society.

September 9, 2005 @ 2:03 am | Comment

I agree that the Tiananmen Square is rather tragic, and there are a lot of innocent people who have died in that place. I myself knew of many people who went to the streets in Beijing to protest.

As to not allowing it to discuss it openly. Well, I think that can be blamed on overseas democracy activists. If overseas democracy activists will not use this issue as a platform to collapse China, then China has no problem talking about it openly. But unfortunately, China cannot afford to do that as it will lead to all kinds of forces infiltrate into China and collapse China.

If China says “We are wrong during 1989″. Then they will say “Then rehabilitate this event.”, “Put Li Peng in Jail”, “Open up your press”, etc etc.

Of course none of those demands is necessarily a bad thing for China. I would also like to see more open press in China. But the more important question is who is asking for those things. If a honest Chinese person who cares the best for China asks for an open press, he’ll be respected. But if an overseas “democracy-activist” like FLG asks the same thing, it is quite different.

I am not defending “fascists”. In fact, I have many displeasures and complaints against the CCP. And I do not claim that my posts are all correct. I’m just writing what I think, and I like to think things logically, with an engineering mind, instead of focusing on “emotions” and “philosophy” like many humanity majors do. So my writings may sound very blunt and not as beautiful as some of the writings here.

September 9, 2005 @ 2:10 am | Comment

Boy, Math, you sure make China sound weak, if “discussions by overseas democracy activists” are enough to “collapse” the government.

If the government is just, if it has the Mandate of Heaven or of the People or however you wish to phrase it, surely it can withstand a little criticism from overseas Chinese democracy activists.

And if it’s truly so weak, shouldn’t it evolve or change to adapt to present circumstances?

Can’t you see the contradictions in your argument?

We’ll have to take this up some other time. It’s 1:30 AM here in California, and it’s past my bedtime…

Night all.

September 9, 2005 @ 2:17 am | Comment

Math, your shorter messages make you seem a bit more reasonable than the long articles you post, just how long ago did you write these…

As to not allowing it to discuss it openly. Well, I think that can be blamed on overseas democracy activists.

Who do you think should be blamed for letting the democracy activists to have so much to say that the government doesn’t want it’s people to hear?

I’m just writing what I think, and I like to think things logically, with an engineering mind, instead of focusing on “emotions” and “philosophy” like many humanity majors do.

What kind of engineering mind chooses to intentionally leave parts of an argument out just because they didn’t feel like thinking about it (for reasons easily guessed) and casually replaces the argument with a conclusion of his own?

If we take the 1989 events, and keep everything the same except the slogans: imagine that the students were asking the gov’t to arrest and kill every westerner living in China at the time, much like in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900′s. And they shouted that the gov’t was oppressive because it refused talk to them about killing all foreigners, and they started surrounding gov’t buildings, blockading traffic, and starting hunger strikes, and refused to leave until the gov’t concedes. Now, will you still think the students’ movement were a democratic movement and their demands should be met?

The May Fourth movement, in your point of view, should also be seen as an illegal protest right? Everything’s the same except the slogans.

September 9, 2005 @ 3:00 am | Comment

Yes, monologues can be annoying. Trying to seem to be voicing both parts of the argument and pretending to have won at the end…

September 9, 2005 @ 3:05 am | Comment

I stand by my earlier appeal to you, Garn. I believe that the Madges out there are interested only in being contrarians and controversialists and unconcerned in the foundations of their arguments. I was with a regional head of the diploma programme from Australa who was throwing around these ideas- what do you do with somany people? Look at al the growth out there (said while dressed smartly as he looks out from the Italian restaurant few Chinese have the means to visit). I was disgusted. Here, a guy in charge of the running of this programme in Asia-Australasia, defending thugs who kill students and ban them from gaining knowledge, who block all info about their own history and feed them lies. I don’t take such passionate views because I’m some loser stuck in an office all day with no girlfriend or future outside of daydreams who has nothing better to do than effortlessly making offensive statements. I’ma teacher and if my job and students mean anything to me, I have to be completely antagonistic towards a regime that survives by preaching ignorance and lies. Wait for next health epidemic when the gov’t covers that up from the people the Madges of the world proclaim are only after their best interests. No amount of selective copy and pasting can paste over the illegitimacy and corrupt nature of this regime.

September 9, 2005 @ 3:29 am | Comment

Richard, I think you might want to check the IP address for “Derick Owens.” (Two comments above) It’s obviously MAJ stalking again.

September 9, 2005 @ 4:38 am | Comment

Derick do you know this Mr Jones character? What is his background I want to know. I am holidays back in Europe right now but should be returned in Hong Kong next week. If you and he are both fellow residents I should like to meet. If Mr Jones is a post-structuralist thinker like me we should find plenty to discuss about. Agreed, his writings about hyperreality and China’s new face of kitsch is much better and more intresting than his bog criticism. Is is Marxist I wonder? It seems so to me perhaps.

September 9, 2005 @ 5:37 am | Comment

Hoo boy. Pekingduck has now become the Mark Anthony Jones fanclub. All this time I thought he was simply a deranged nutter with stalker-like tendencies for which he employed dozens of false personalities who refused to go away despite hundreds of past promises to do so when all along he was a leading Marxist theorist….

September 9, 2005 @ 6:15 am | Comment

When I get a slew of new commenters all cooing over a post by Madge and naming where they read it, including the time and date it was posted (so everyone can find it) I get extremely suspicious. When these comments also display the same formula (“I don’t fully agree with what Madge said about this, but what he said about that was absolutely brilliant”) I get doubly suspicious. This is the same tired pattern of self-contratulations we all witnessed during the Dr. Ann Meyers nonsense. It wouldn’t be a sign of someone seeking attention, would it?

September 9, 2005 @ 8:32 am | Comment

And with that, we’ll start a new thread, above.

September 9, 2005 @ 9:36 am | Comment

[...] or three times over the past five years. He appeared out of the blue a twentieth of a century ago in this thread and has remained a mystery ever since. Note that in that thread, Math actually responds to [...]

September 2, 2010 @ 8:17 am | Pingback

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