How to be a fenqing

A smart, funny piece about one of China’s most interesting phenomena. Do not miss the inane Tibet video (may need to use a proxy) and Froog’s takedown thereof.

This was the second post in recent days I saw that refers to the unique mix of commenters here at TPD. This is a page from a most bizarre wiki that refers to “the trollfest that is The Peking Duck.” If anyone can decipher what it all means, I’d love to know. The reference to ferin and Invisible Sky Magician is particularly puzzling.

Update: Jeremiah chimes in, and he’s spot-on as usual. For example:

The fenqing are to most patriotic Chinese youth what the meth-riddled KKK rednecks on Jerry Springer are to the Republican party. They are wildly overrepresented on the internet, and the web gives this whacked-out fringe a powerful megaphone that amplifies their voices and adds to their self-importance.

Go there now.

Another Update (March 21): Latest comment by Froog over at the thread on his blog:

Dear Fenqing (all of you, any who may happen to be reading),

Please note that this post is humorous: it is making fun of fenqing, yes, but only in a fairly light way. And this is in the context of some other recent posts that equally make fun of fenwai (and of myself) and of some of the points that we often unfairly or over-provocatively make in our blog-commenting.

Please also note that the one serious point in this post, the basis of my and most other people’s criticism of fenqing (Chinese people’s criticism of them as well) is not what their views are but the aggression and self-righteousness with which they express those views.

Finally, please note that this post is not about any individual fenqing, or any individual argument they may have been involved in, or any individual view they hold. It is most certainly not about Tibet. Go check again – any mention of Tibet? NO.

If you want to portray yourself online as the kind of guy who just goes off on a rant about Tibet all the time, even when everybody else is talking about the economy or space travel or golf, well… go ahead. But you just make yourself look ridiculous. People don’t pay any attention to your opinions not because of the opinions themselves, but because you don’t know how (and when and where) to present them.

Now, go away, and please don’t come back.

Funny, no? Too bad it’ll go right over their heads as they keep going on about the T word.

The Discussion: 59 Comments

No freakin’ clue. I’d file it under “Life’s Too Short.”

March 14, 2009 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

Good point. But I was surprised to see traffic from that inexplicable wiki.

March 14, 2009 @ 2:21 pm | Comment

“Overseas Chinese keyboard warrior”

I like the term!!

Ferin should be pleased ๐Ÿ˜‰

Hope HX is not envious ๐Ÿ˜‰

March 14, 2009 @ 2:46 pm | Comment

When will the next troll party takes place by the way?

I suggest a “Troll free fire zone” thread just to let them run amok for a while.

Just make sure your server can take the load….

March 14, 2009 @ 2:50 pm | Comment

What exactly did Chairman Mao mean when he said: “FxxxCK White People!”?

March 14, 2009 @ 3:10 pm | Comment

Ha! They run amok all the time anyway,

March 14, 2009 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

I had a conversation with my Chinese friend, who is doing his Phd research over this a few weeks ago.The whole thing turned out to be very helpful

In case of nationalists, we all know there are these smart ones and dumb ones, and dumb ones usually shoot their feet in an arguement. But I do believe Froog and many other Westerners are making a big mistake by assuming them as trolls and the product of propaganda.

It is true that there are trolls, the “wu mao” and influence of propaganda is undeniable. Yet all of them have their limits. Chinese government propaganda covers lots of things, not just Tibet, but also how people should behave, how rightous the CCP is, and so on. In fact I can make this list much longer.

Over the last 12 months, I saw Chinese netizens and citizens of Guangzhou organise themselves to help the victims of snow storm, give them water, food and shelter; Iใ€€saw Chinese, many of them living abroad, took to the streets to defend Olympic torch and the country they were born, and love, even if no longer live in;I saw volumes of cars, privately owned, lined up along the way to Sichuang, with the belief that even the smallest amount of contribution could save lives and help.

You can attribute all of them as product of propaganda, as nationalists. Yet they do what they believe as right, they do what they believe ought to be done. These are the occasions where the will of government coincident with the will of people, and we all see how powerful this convergence can be.

And I do appreciate these Chinese who write in English to defend China and what they believe. They are at the forefront of engagement, willingly, yet at a disadvantage position, as English is not their first language. This engagement is perphas one of the most important in this century, between Chinese and Westerners. It is fortunate that Chinese, unlike Soviets dacades ago, both have the ability and chance to make this happen, as individuals, not merely as governments. With the world’s largest internet population and a compulsory English education, communication is at least possible, if not poorly conducted. While the attempt by the Chinese to make their case in Enligsh could end up badly due to their language ablities, at least they tried. I do wish that more and more Westerners could one day make their case in Chinese to the Chinese, althought they may well end up being laughed at just like the Chinese before them, or misunderstood equal badly.

What you see here on internet is just a tip of iceberg, the reason they are here is because they have already happened in the real world. The arugements you see here on this blog and many others alike are what you can hear daily between an exchange of Westerner and Chinese, if they were willing to discuss these issues.

The question is, do we put other’s concern as out concern or do we put other in a defensive position and make fun of it.

March 14, 2009 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

Correction “The question is, do we put otherโ€™s concern as OUR concern or do we put other in a defensive position and make fun of it.

March 14, 2009 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

A Chinese, I hope you noticed that these English-writing commenters are always welcome here. I usually thank them for joining. I encourage them to participate because this site would be pretty dull if it were only one type of reader articulating one point of view. There is a difference, however, between those who come here to comment sincerely and the hard-core fenqing, who often seem impervious to reason. Look at my good friend Hong Xing for example. Others, like Math, simply refuse to engage and use this site as a kind of message board to drop their proclamations.

I never, ever criticize these commenters for their English skills, and I discourage others from doing so, I want them here, and am impressed by the ones who sincerely seek to express themselves despite the obvious language difficulty and the risk of making themselves look bad because of it. The Chinese commenters here are a big part of what makes this site what it is. Some of my readers wonder why I don’t censor them more aggressively or ban them more quickly, and I’ve been accused of having a double standard. And maybe I do. Just the way that at the office I am a little more patient with my Chinese colleagues and speak more slowly to them and tolerate more mistakes than with their Western counterparts.

But keep in mind, there are commenters, and there are trolls. Usually it doesn’t take too long to see the difference, Math, for example, doesn’t fit my criteria for a troll, as he doesn’t interact and doesn’t actively seek to derail conversations the way HX and some others do. I’m not sure if you were here when a certain “Wayne’ and “Mongol Warrior” were here, determined to sabotage every discussion and even resorting to threats and obscene emails to my readers’ personal email. When I spot this sort or troll, I first tell him (and they’re always guys, for whatever reason) what I think he’s doing and ask him to show me otherwise. Put I don’t tolerate making fun of any commenter unless he proves beyond any reasonable doubt that he’s a troll determined to destroy the conversation. Or if it’s a commenter I’m convinced is being intentionally annoying.

The story about the Chinese working together to help one another during the snowstorm in Guangzhou…. No one here would deny any of that. I praise that sort of thing all the time. Did you read this post, by any chance? No one is quicker than me to point out the nobler aspects of the Chinese people. But the trolls ruin that, they put forth the ugliest face with a slash-and-burn mentality and the kind of righteous but totally uninformed indignation I can’t stand. So let’s make sure we understand who these different groups are, and that this blog greets them all as friends until they force me to do otherwise.

March 14, 2009 @ 5:04 pm | Comment

As a Chinese too,I’d like to say something to “A Chinese”: You know,everyone can speak ones’ mind,it’s his/her right. At the same time,in my opinion,you have the right to get laid,but you don’t have the erection ability,so why not masturbating yourself to get pleasure.

No offense to you. Use your imagination to write a piece wit of “Fuck White” essay,I’ll applause for you.

March 14, 2009 @ 6:36 pm | Comment

Amadeus, your response seems a bit less measured than my own….

March 14, 2009 @ 7:21 pm | Comment

Chinese Nationalism is not “blowback” from “CCP” propaganda. “Fenjings”, maybe. Some of them are probably just projecting personal failures like the xenophobia card pullers of the expat community in China.

Rather, Chinese Nationalism is blowback from May 4th, blowback from IJA invasions, blowback from the Opium Wars, blow back for “China Containment”, blowback from the poor treatment of Overseas Chinese. That, and another big one on the list is CCP desecration of China. But years and years of futile struggle with the CCP has led many of them to take a more pragmatic stance on things, and they realize that destabilizing the CCP will just create another early ROC warlord era type of disaster.

I should probably reorder that in chronological order, but then again if any of you know anything at all you’d know when and where all of these events took place.

March 14, 2009 @ 7:21 pm | Comment

Some of them are probably just projecting personal failures like the xenophobia card pullers of the expat community in China.

Ferin, care to elaborate? In all seriousness, I’ve never known a xenophobic expat here. Most of the expats I know here are quite cynical about their home countries, which may be part of the reason they’re here. They’re cynical about China, too, but xenophobia is something I’ve never observed.

And any idea why your name is on that list? (And I’m not saying that means anything; anyone can write whatever they want on that site, and some joker may have just scribbled in your name.)

March 14, 2009 @ 7:25 pm | Comment

A Chinese wrote: “And I do appreciate these Chinese who write in English to defend China and what they believe. They are at the forefront of engagement, willingly, yet at a disadvantage position, as English is not their first language.”

Dude…Dude…I don’t know what to say other than to suggest that you go back to Chapter One: Class Struggle.

Class Struggle—the ruling class is the enemy. The ruling class oppresses the people. It doesn’t matter what the ruling class calls itself—capitalist, communist, twiddle dee, twiddle dum. The ruling class oppresses the people. There is no China vs. the US, the US vs. China; there’s only the ruling class vs. the people.

March 14, 2009 @ 8:01 pm | Comment

The problem with Chinese Xenophobia, as I see it, is that it does not overcome what I refer to as “The Problem of the Penis”, or the “PP”. The PP seeks to extend oneself beyond one’s limitations, to probe one’s external environment. In other words, “TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE!”

March 14, 2009 @ 8:31 pm | Comment

Because that’s what I come off as to some, probably because everyone that doesn’t bend over backwards to support American/European interests and biases is immediately a rabid, evil nationalist/terrorist/communist/homosexual/illegal. Though my real views are probably much more and much less extreme on many points when compared to the common “fenqing”.

Regardless, they are trying to pigeonhole every single Chinese person with a backbone or a shred of pride into a convenient boogeyman. Any collective effort to improve the nation is branded as “extreme nationalism” to gut progress in China.

I didn’t mean to say the expats were xenophobic, but rather they love pulling the “xenophobia card”, i.e trying to guilt trip the local Chinese (or Japanese, or Koreans, depending on where their fetish leads them to) into granting them more favors.

March 14, 2009 @ 9:23 pm | Comment

/n/ is a *chan board devoted to the discussion of the /n/ews (in theory, at least!)
A while ago, an entry from TPD was posted to /n/ and some tripfags from /n/ started posting on TPD (you might recall ISM’s rather infamous troll post) and posters from TPD (ferin for one) started trolling /n/ too, which is how your blog came to our attention.

March 14, 2009 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

My friend,
You recent posting to the blog failed to adequately “bend over backwards to support American and European interests and biasesโ€œ therefore you are obviously a rabid, evil nationalist, terrorist, communist, homosexual, illegal.

You should try to adopt the philosophy of the black african-american descendents of slaves who also were forced to bend over backwards to support American and European interests and biases.

I recommend you listen to “Free Your Mind…And Your Ass Will Follow” a 1970 album by the American funk band Funkadelic.

March 15, 2009 @ 12:27 am | Comment

n/ewsfag, thanks for filling me in. I was wondering why I was listed there, and why I kept getting hits from that page. ISM posted here only a few times, and he was promptly banned for incredible racism.

Ferin: Because thatโ€™s what I come off as to some, probably because everyone that doesnโ€™t bend over backwards to support American/European interests and biases is immediately a rabid, evil nationalist/terrorist/communist/homosexual/illegal.

That sort of thinking, if it exists, isn’t representative of this site. Not at all.

March 15, 2009 @ 1:12 am | Comment

But of many of the commentators, such as Bao, Not_a_Sinophile, etc.

March 15, 2009 @ 4:33 am | Comment

To be and then not to be a FenQing is the process of Chinese youth growing up in China. The naive youths imagine that they are entitled to a piece of China and so rant against the foreigners with impunity, until they get punished by CCP for crossing certain lines while doing good for their country. Sooner or later they find out they are just the dispensable political pawns for the CCP and further realize they have no political rights whatsoever, can’t vote for anything or anybody, and are actually political slaves just like their parents. It turns out that they are nobody in their own country. The motherland which they are taught to love actually doesn’t love them back at all and can punish them anytime for any reason and even kill them. Then they are disillusioned and become politically passive as their parents. That is when they grow out of the FenQing stage and become mature.

However, the Chinese FenQing growing up in a democracy never have the chance to learn the harsh lesson from the frustrating real life experiences as those in China and their mind probably can never reach the political sophistication and maturity as that of those in China. So they get stuck in their FenQinghood, remain politically retarded and as the FenQing in a different sense–็ฒช้’ or shit-qing.

Chinese FenQing, just like puppies, though fierce to the outsiders, are fully aware of the ferocity of their master CCP and learn not to challenge him no matter how bad and how wrong he is or to challenge those who is as bad as their CCP master is. That is why Chinese FenQing became collectively mute when recently a Russian gunboat sank a Chinese freight liner and killed 8 Chinese sailor off the east coast of Siberia, which actually was part of FenQing’s motherland before.

Imagine how wild FenQing could be if the Americans or French did it…

March 15, 2009 @ 6:09 am | Comment

Sooner or later they find out they are just the dispensable political pawns for the CCP and further realize they have no political rights whatsoever

You see, the problem with idiots like you is that you always infantilize the targets of your “benevolence”. Chinese nationalists, real ones at least, realize the problems the CCP poses. This is something even your fellow retards at Associated Press have realized.

Most of them are smart enough to realize that while the CCP is quite bad and needs a lot of reform (understatement), they aren’t deluded into thinking that America, Russia, India, Brazil etc are any better.

The reason why the “fenqing” are supposedly “mute” on the Russia issue is because most of them haven’t really heard the story. The CCP censors Russian barbarity fairly well.

March 15, 2009 @ 7:27 am | Comment

Yeah, I definitely think you should draw a line between Fenqings and hard-core nationalists. The nationalists are an extremely dangerous set of people who, if they ever got hold of power, would most probably start a war with the US or Japan, the Fenqing are essentially puppets dancing to the CCP tune. There are at least a few nationalists who see all the way through CCP mind-games like the recent concentration on France – the book “Unhappy China” by ultra-nationalists Wang Xiaodong and Song Qiang has a whole episode on why China’s relationship with France is unimportant. The CCP try to use the nationalists, but will crack down on them if they step out of line – the example of the arrest of an ultra-nationalist who called for democracy is instructive.

March 15, 2009 @ 8:22 am | Comment

There are few “ultra-nationalists” and I doubt anyone would actually want to start a war with Japan. Less scaremongering?

March 15, 2009 @ 9:23 am | Comment

A Suggestion To the Chinese Government to Increase Anti-US Feelings in the Chinese Public

This post is written in the interest of China. I like to write some posts that are in the interest of USA, others in the interest of China.

By “in the interest of China”, I mean I am writing as if I am hired as a strategic advisor for China and am to give advices to make China stronger and make the US collapse sooner, just like US advisors are hired to give advice to make the US stronger and China collapse sooner.

If I were to give advices, one of the advices I would give to the Chinese leadership today is to increase the current level of Anti-Americanism in China, to the level where a state of “Cold War” would exist between the two countries. Now remember, I am giving the advice in the role of an advisor. I myself does not have anything against America, in fact, I very much enjoy the USA, that’s why I live here. But since if I were hired to work for China, then I must put aside personal feelings, right?

To be anti-American does not mean China have to start a war, but rather a “cold war”. In other words, in order to “foster” and “brood” anti-American sentiments, the Chinese leadership needs to constantly find some “flash-points” that will make people be very angry of Americans. For example, if a Chinese citizen is arrested in America, the Chinese media should try to say “A Chinese is viciously beaten by American police “, or if an American official said something like “America is an ally of Taiwan”, then the Chinese media should say “American official threatens War with China over Taiwan”, etc etc etc. In general, always exaggerate and make America look bad. I think China should learn from Al Jazeera, which is a good example in the middle east where it is a powerful and effective tool of anti-Americanism.

We know that before a soccer match, or a boxing match, the media will always try to create an atmosphere of hostility and tension between the two sides. The media will provoke each athelete/team to say something very arrogant or dismissive about the athelete/team, and then use that to increase the “stake” of the game and draw attention to the game. And this is part of what makes a game very interesting and exciting, and I believe the same is for International relations. Creating tension and hostility makes the International arena very exciting and interesting.

Also, when you watch a sports game and you are a fan of team A, you’ll always try to say something bad about team B such as “Team B sucks very much”, or “Team B stands for B*tch”, etc etc. You say those things because you are rooting for team A. Even if you think Team B is playing better than Team A, you’ll still try to ridicule team B. And team B’s fans will do the same to team A. And this is partly what makes a sports game so exciting to watch. If the audience all sit peacefully and praise each other’s teams, then that game will surely become very dry.

So from this perspective, creating anti-Americanism is a very normal process. So as an advisor, I would advocate stronger anti-Americanism and try to foster it everyday. Of course, I think America will try to foster anti-China feelings as well, and I think this is very healthy for both countries. For China, it will have a bigger chance of becoming a first-class country, and for the USA, it can continue to maintain its position as the world’s superpower. This “mutual balance” is actually an important topic in Dynamical Systems.

March 15, 2009 @ 10:46 am | Comment

Math, you left “assaulting your english teacher” off your list.

March 15, 2009 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

I have no problem when Chinese nationalists who behave as flamers or are just in general obnoxious get banned, but generally the ones who have the organizational skill to set up websites like anti-CNN are worth talking to. They’re not a fringe, they’re part of the mainstream, and to denounce them as the victims of propaganda means that dialogue is difficult since one side is coming in with such a condescending viewpoint.

Hell, you guys realize you’re not squarely in the American mainstream with your views, right? Fareed Zakharia posted a Newsweek article explaining how and why anti-Chinese sentiment just fuels Chinese nationalism. The three Anglophone news sources I’m using right now have all moderated their coverage of the Tibet issue, in order to avoid being lambasted as “too CNN”. BBC, if you’re of an anti-Chinese bent, is particularly egregious on this issue, up to the point where many Tibet articles detail the Chinese view of pre-1950 Tibet as a feudal hellhole as well as the standard Tibetan exile view.

By the way, regarding xenophobic Westerners? Where did Talk Talk China go (rather, what happened to sinocidal?)? And why haven’t I seen nanheyangrouchuan around lately? From an inductive approach, you can also include businesspersons who’ve been forced into the overseas office for career advancement, and have no love for the semi-modern business culture in China.

March 15, 2009 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Inst, kebab boy is still around, and commented within the past two weeks, I am happy to argue with the ant-CNN crowd, and they are never banned, unless they break other rules like personal attacks and spamming. I have never denounced them as victims of propaganda, but I would say many of them are victims of propaganda, which is not a denunciation. I am willing to explain why I make this claim and can point out many examples of the media being just as sloppy with other countries as they are with China. Unfortunately, such conversations tend to disintegrate quickly into the usual nationalist/victim scripts. The entire anti-CNN mentality is anti-argument, anti-logic, appealing to a shared emotional sense of permanent victimhood which makes discussion so painful. God knows I’ve tried many, many times.

Ferin, I already deleted one of your remarks about commenters’ wives. Now I’m going to start doing the same with comments calling others “retards” or “idiots.” Okay?

March 15, 2009 @ 1:57 pm | Comment

[…] written this past weekend.ย  One on the blog Froogville which sparked a response from Richard at The Peking Duck.ย  Below are my own thoughts, which began as a comment on TPD but ran long and so I’ve […]

March 15, 2009 @ 2:11 pm | Pingback

[…] written this past weekend.ย  One on the blog Froogville which sparked a response from Richard at The Peking Duck.ย  Below are my own thoughts, which began as a comment on TPD but ran long and so I’ve […]

March 15, 2009 @ 2:11 pm | Pingback

Stop reading this thread and go see the response over at Granite Studio right now.

March 15, 2009 @ 2:19 pm | Comment

Well, thanks for the recommendation, Richard. I wondered why I was getting so much more traffic than usual this weekend.

I would like to flag up the caveat that this was essentially a frivolous piece; I was not attempting a thorough anatomization of the fenqing phenomenon.

I would also point out that I wrote a follow-up post a day or so later, in which I made fun of myself – and other laowai who sometimes get a bit grouchy or tetchy in their blogs or when engaging with fenqing types in the comment threads.

March 15, 2009 @ 5:09 pm | Comment

Thanks for the links.

I wonder about “I’ll have to ask a friend about this” remarks. How many of us know lots of Chinese who aren’t professionals, middle class in some way, etc? Only it would be interesting to see what poorer and richer Chinese thought.

I guess that I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never really had Chinese friends who had extreme views (or if they have, they’ve kept them hidden).

March 15, 2009 @ 7:46 pm | Comment

Sorry richard, but el chino simply is an idiot and there’s no other way around it. He said something along the lines of Chinese having “degenerate blood” and I’m surprised you keep letting him post here considering how many times I have been banned.

and other laowai who sometimes get a bit grouchy or tetchy in their blogs or when engaging with fenqing types in the comment threads.

Inevitably, most Western expats start to hate any country they live in. The poor things are given less than extra special treatment every now and then, which can be particularly scarring to their egos. Sometimes they have to put up with a little bit of rudeness or *gasp* harmless ignorance, something that “people of color” would never face in their home countries.

The same things have been documented in Japan and India.

March 15, 2009 @ 8:36 pm | Comment

and Vietnam:

Reasons to Hate Vietnam: Written by a “fenwai” in Vietnam

Some quotes:

most men sound like a recording of mentally handicapped person with a mouth full of Novocain, making an impression of a goose, played in reverse

…as the Vietnamese don’t often speak with their handsโ€”and a general lack of intelligence. Yeah, that’s right, Tatiana and I think most of the people are genuinely below average in the mental faculty department.

It is a beautiful country with a lot to offer, it’s just full of evil cunt people.

It’s because the Vietnamese are as a generalization some of the evilest people on the face of the earth.

I personally won’t tolerate it from beggars and pith helmet wearing men on the street, regardless. I aggressively clapped my hands a few centimeters away one man’s face to illustrate such a pointโ€”

“I understand why they do it, it’s a part of their culture, but why can’t they understand that it’s offensive in mine to do it?”

Really, I wonder why some of you travel at all.

March 15, 2009 @ 8:42 pm | Comment

“…the Vietnamese are as a generalization some of the evilest people on the face of the earth.”

I resent that!

March 15, 2009 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

ๅณ็ฅšไพ†’s “Chinese Fight For Their Ego; Westerners Fight For Their Freedom”

“When the Chinese feel their own ego is threatened, they tend to squabble with their own family. When the Chinese family feel their ego threatened, members of the family tend to squabble with other clans. When the nation feels its ego threatened, it tends to squabble with other nations. When Chinese humankind feel their ego threatened, they tend to despise and denigrate animals like tigers and wolves โ€“ they say ‘heart of a wolf and guts of a dog’ (็‹ผๅฟƒ็‹—่‚บ); ‘heart of snakes and scorpions’ (่›‡่ ไน‹ๅฟƒ), ‘tigers and wolves taking charge’ (่™Ž็‹ผ็•ถ้“), which are all debasing language about animals from humansโ€™ standpoint.”

“For us Chinese, we only care about our ego. If you Westerners want us to fight for our freedom, we must reject it outright. And we donโ€™t want human rights either.”

March 15, 2009 @ 10:21 pm | Comment

they say โ€˜heart of a wolf and guts of a dogโ€™ (็‹ผๅฟƒ็‹—่‚บ); โ€˜heart of snakes and scorpionsโ€™ (่›‡่ ไน‹ๅฟƒ), โ€˜tigers and wolves taking chargeโ€™ (่™Ž็‹ผ็•ถ้“), which are all debasing language about animals from humansโ€™ standpoint.โ€

Because no one ever calls anyone “dog” or “pig” in the English language. Or bitch for that matter, you never hear that word anymore. We enlightened Westerners ended cursing years ago, just like how we ended racism in the 1950s and sexism in the 1920s!

Chinese people need sensitivity training. They should work in communities of law-abiding wolves, dogs, pigs and snakes. Re-educate the masses!

March 15, 2009 @ 10:42 pm | Comment

But Westerners are stubborn. When they succeeded in achieving their personal freedom, they went on to fight for their nationโ€™s freedom. When that was achieved, they went on to fight for humankindโ€™s freedom.


March 15, 2009 @ 10:44 pm | Comment

He said something along the lines of Chinese having โ€œdegenerate bloodโ€ and Iโ€™m surprised you keep letting him post here considering how many times I have been banned.

I simply missed that comment. Since he;s a broken record, I often skip over them. I’ll watch more carefully. You get banned for one simple reason, namely hurling incredibly personal insults at other readers. There are some commenters I think are being a**holes at times. But part of being an adult is conveying this to them and showcasing their a**holism in a way that doesn’t reduce you to their level. Maybe so-and-so is really being an idiot. But you serve yourself much better if you show us how they are being an idiot, instead of resorting to ad hominems.

March 15, 2009 @ 10:48 pm | Comment

Ferin, very unfortunately, what I said and what you quote I said about the Chinese people is the fact and truth. What you have being doing is to try to make people disbelieve it. Obviously it is a mission impossible. You try to defend the indefensible and glorify the embarrassing.

Every genus of human being has the degenerate, slavish, ugly and stupid members in it, with the difference being that some has less and some more. If you happen to be one of the lousy or try to identify yourself with the lousy, then I am sorry for you. There are always exceptions. If you are fortunate to be one of them, congratulation. Grow up and face the truth. People won’t shut up just because you can’t handle the truth, unless you are the CCP in charge. Then it is possible that you can make people believe what you like about China and Chinese people. Otherwise, it would be both frustrating and futile until the day you die for you to try to stop people from exposing the truth.

I am saying what I observe and think independently. I am not a brainless FengQing in and outside of China, who only repeat what they are taught.

March 15, 2009 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

very unfortunately, what I said and what you quote I said about the Chinese people is the fact and truth. Every genus of human being has the degenerate, slavish, ugly and stupid members in it, with the difference being that some has less and some more.

lol, if I said that I would be banned.

What you have being doing is to try to make people disbelieve it.

Disbelieve what? Chinese people are smarter than you, less criminal than you, healthier than you.

Of course they are not perfect, but they’re definitely better than your race.

March 15, 2009 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

Ferin, please cut the crap. You only got banned for your incredibly nasty personal attacks. And you’re heading down the same path again. Why did you slip in again, just to see how long you could push before I throw you out again?

March 16, 2009 @ 12:27 am | Comment

Oh okay, just like I thought, you won’t delete el chino’s posts.

So let me get this straight, saying people in China have degenerate DNA is okay but personal attacks against trolls and retards are not.

Race theory fine, attacking el chino not fine. Got it, I’ll change my posting habits.

March 16, 2009 @ 12:44 am | Comment

Ferin, I didn’t love el chino’s comment, but I thought he was saying every race has its jerks. But look t what you’ve done again – derailed a thread and taking it off-topic. That’s the main reason you get banned. Your abuse always disrupts and destroys conversations, And that’s why you get banned. Deal with that fact. Oh, and guess what?

March 16, 2009 @ 1:24 am | Comment

โ€œโ€ฆthe Vietnamese are as a generalization some of the evilest people on the face of the earth.โ€

And some fenwai thinks otherwise. I met many foreigners there, living, working, teaching and cooperating with help organizations.

And their opinions of the country and its people is quite the opposite.

March 16, 2009 @ 2:52 am | Comment

@Richard – You know, as someone who does get accused of trolling every now and then, I don’t get why this blog attracts so many of the trolls of both sides. Probably because it’s been around so long, is very popular, at least tries to be fairly neutral, and is the website which receives the greatest volume of commentary I guess, but sometimes the threads here are only a step away from being the kind of thing you read on Youtube. Now that Sinocidal is gone, I comment mainly over at Fool’s Mountain, I guess they receive less in the way of heat because they are generally pro-CCP and don’t allow so much in the way of insults/bad language.

March 16, 2009 @ 7:08 am | Comment

In the past several weeks, since I left on my trip to Yunnan, I got way stricter about comments I won’t allow the youtube-type threads anymore, and I won’t allow the insults. I haven’t visited the Time blog on China in a while, but they used to take the cake for trolls; TPD wasn’t even close.

March 16, 2009 @ 9:01 am | Comment

The post by yourfriend 3/15/09 3:20 PM where he states that
“Of course they are not perfect, but theyโ€™re definitely better than your race.” This comment unfortunately exemplifies the deep seated bigotry and poor self-image of some Chinese. It’s really a shame. I’m a first generation Chinese immigrant from Taiwan. Having lived in the US for the last 4 decades, I have been truly inspired by the awesomeness of the American experience. You can be and do whatever you desire in America. Dream as big or as little as you like. Freedom, individual choice, ability to vote your conscience. The US is definently not perfect but considering the other governmental systems in the world, I believe we still have the best thing going.

March 17, 2009 @ 1:59 pm | Comment


Since Fenwais are the nemesis of Fenqings, I suggest you do a blog on the common traits of a Fenwai. Here are some suggestions of mine.

A Fenwai comes from a Western country. Usually a physically unattractive man in his thirties or fourties. He was considered a loser back home for not having a decent career and having difficulty even to keep a low wage job. While in China, he is able to make more money than an average Chinese, often by teaching English in a Language school.

Although better off than most Chinese, he makes far less money than the Western expats sent to China with fat expat packages by their multi-national corporations. The Fenwai also compares poorly to many rich Chinese.

A Fenwai’s Chinese girlfriend is usually a migrant worker with limited education from a poor village in the Chinese heartland. He is too ashamed of her to bring her to any gathering of foreigners where the expats with expat packages show up with tall, slender, English speaking, and sophisticated girfriends. With plenty of time at hand, he lingers in the blogsphere and finds himself an enemy in the Fenqing.

He judges the Chinese reality by the Western ideal. Everything in China is bad. The West is liberty and the East is tyranny. He becomes defensive when people compare certain aspects of China to those of his own contry, such as how minority people are treated. He either claims that he is talking about China so whatever the West does is irrelevant, or that he has already criticized his own in the past and this has given him the full right to lecture Chinese people.

These are only some of my thoughts. More ideas on the subject?

March 18, 2009 @ 9:50 am | Comment

Serve, here are my ideas: I know many, many, many people here. I have never known anyone who fits your description. Not even close. Such people may exist, but I’ve never met them or heard about them. I have never known or heard of a single laowai here dating a migrant worker. I suspect this is a fantasy of yours, and instead of reflecting a segment of society here that is actually significant enough to merit debate, your description simply reflects your own bigotry, animosity, sense of inferiority and your jealous but hopelessly impotent rage. Just my thoughts.

March 18, 2009 @ 2:23 pm | Comment

@Serve – I’ll admit that I’ve known people who, whilst not exactly fitting your description, came close in many respects – however none of those guys wasted time commenting on the internet. The essential pretentiousness of the expat scene has been mocked by far funnier people than you, here some of my faves:

Truth is, a lot of the people who are most critical of China are the oneswho are doing better than most. The kind of person who Serve describes generally likes living in China.

March 19, 2009 @ 3:53 am | Comment

I don’t see much value in personalizing the fenqing or fenwai phenomenom by characterizing them based on perceived physical or social characteristics. Most fenqing I have encountered are in their 20’s or younger and were born in the PRC where they received their elementary school and high school educations. some i have met immigrated to the US and attended one or two years of US high school. other than that i can say they have any common social characteristics or gender, just most i have met are male.

It seems to me the phenomenom has some relationship to mainland china cultural issues as much as the CCP manipulation of the education system and media.

If I was looking for a topic for a dissertation or thesis in anthroplogy, or sociology I think studying the fenqing phenomenon would be a good one. Only it would be hard to gather statistics and data without going to the PRC and possibly getting permission from the government.

I wonder if it is possible to get copies of history textbooks used in PRC elementary schools. You would want to get surveys and questionaires filled out by chinese in their teens and 20’s about issues sensitive to the government. You would want to look at how these issues and related information is presented to chinese children from nursery school through high school and in the media and official government information.

You would have to address cultural differences and social conformitity in asian cultures.

I remember there was a chinese woman from virginia who traveled to taiwan and the mainland to do graduate studies about women issues in china. she was thrown in prison by the PRC i think for a couple of years. eventually she was released after some negotiating by the state department.

maybe it would be better if some fenqing did his own social research on the fenqing phenomenom.

March 19, 2009 @ 6:06 am | Comment


If fenqing men are terrible just imagine how more terrible fenqin women could be….. ๐Ÿ˜‰

“I wonder if it is possible to get copies of history textbooks used in PRC elementary schools.”
That seems to be a good idea. I could provide a better view of current CH youth mindset.It could be an interest research area, maybe worth of a Phd in politics/sociology. It can be difficult to get the material though, maybe even riskier, for the researcher and/or collaborators.

“I remember there was a chinese woman from virginia who traveled to taiwan and the mainland to do graduate studies about women issues in china. she was thrown in prison by the PRC i think for a couple of years. ”
I have noticed something curious. I you look Chinese (or are of chinese origin) it is easier that the PRC jails you if you step on their feet.

They seem to consider themselves entitled to do what they want with whom they
consider Chinese, even if they are foreign citizens. If you were former PRC citizen the risk is even higher than if you were foreign born. And if things get nastier… better not have any close relative in the country.

For non Chinese looking foreigner they may have some misgivings though, Caucasian looking seems to be on a lower risk level. And if your family belongs to the political establishment, have enough influence, and your country is big enough (i.e. US) you are in an even lower risk category. They most probably would just expel you of the country. Just a short visit to their penal facilities would happen is they wanted to make a point.

Maybe these are tips and recommendations for prospective Phd/researches willing to get into CCP’s sensitive research areas should be included in the checklist any mentor must have ready for his/her Phd-candidates/researchers.

March 19, 2009 @ 4:16 pm | Comment


You can look at Chinese textbooks online here:

I believe that they are experimental, but would imagine the government would not stick them online unless they were a fair representation. History does not start being taught until middle school – they have a textbooks for “Morality and Life” and “Morality and Society” in primary school.

I have often thought that some sort of online translation project of the books would be interesting but never really had the time, but if I had collaborators it might be worth it. I would be interested in a simple translation without commentary (or comments) so it could be used as an online resource and (hopefully) not be accused of bias. If others are interested let me know on this thread. An intermediate grasp of Chinese would be adequate to be able to help – the language is not complex.

March 19, 2009 @ 4:47 pm | Comment

FOARP: Thanks for providing those links about angry foreigners.

Richard: I have met quite a few angry foreigners. They are bitter about pretty much everything in China. They think that it is the fault of the closed Chinese society that they cannot make any local friends. They never made an effort to learn the language. Cannot write more than five characters. They think that every Chinese is set to cheat them. Unable to afford German beer in Xintiandi, they hang out by themselves in a local watering hole drinking cheap Tiger. They behave in obnoxious ways that are not even socially acceptable in their own countries. The only reason they stay in China is that they cannot find employment back home.

March 21, 2009 @ 11:05 am | Comment

Agree there are angry foreigners. I’ve never met any who meet your blanket description of having migrant worker girlfriends, etc. These people may exist, but they have no presence on the Internet like the fenqing. They are selfish and dedicated to their momentary pleasure and are not consumed in political causes. Your comparison of these losers with fenqing doesn’t hold any water. They have no voice and are not dedicated to spreading any messages and standing up for any government.

About the Sinocidal and Talk Talk China people – I believe most of them were fluent in both written and spoken Chinese, and that their blogs were intended to be gripe sites about frustrations with daily life in China. While they may have been excessive about this, there was no hatred toward China that I ever detected, though their comment threads might have been seen at times as, um, prejudiced. But these were non-political sites and had no anti-CCP or pro-US government slant.

March 21, 2009 @ 11:17 am | Comment

Richard – Dude, I don’t know if this is the first time, but you just got linked by Andrew Sullivan’s blog, big respect!

March 21, 2009 @ 6:48 pm | Comment

Cool, I didn’t notice that. I don’t read his blog regularly (I’ve probably come across it in the past) – do you guys enjoy it?

March 21, 2009 @ 9:42 pm | Comment

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