New thread, links, etc.

Please feel free to talk about anything, as long as you’re nice.

Also, please listen to this new piece on National Public Radio’s Marketplace. It’s about sex shops in China, and I’m interviewed briefly. An amazing subject; sex shops there are a world of difference from those in the West.

There’s also a lengthy new article by James Fallows on the possibility of more companies, especially tech start-ups, choosing to manufacture their goods in the US, not only in China. An important new trend?

Finally, there’s a disturbing new article on the surging AIDS epidemic in China. Some heartbreaking stories. (It’s World AIDS Day today.)

And now you can continue the never-ending debate on China’s system vs. America’s, if you don’t think you’ve yet said it all.

______________

Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 292 Comments

“If we made Hollywood quality movies starring all-Chinese casts, Chinese people would flock to watch it–but unfortunately Hollywood won’t because that won’t make it money.”

Ummmm, wouldn’t Kung Fu Panda count? 😉

Sorry – it’s Friday here.

I’m not overly fond of Hollywood. They take perfectly decent British movies and change them to something else.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:48 am | Comment

Ummmm, wouldn’t Kung Fu Panda count?
Sorry – it’s Friday here.
I’m not overly fond of Hollywood. They take perfectly decent British movies and change them to something else.

ROFL, Kung Fu Panda is about as accurate a description of Han Chinese as Bugs Bunny is of White Americans.

What are some good British movies? I’ve watched four British TV series–The Thick of It, Yes Minister, Chef, and Coupling–and loved every one of them.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:52 am | Comment

Oh, and can’t forget Blackadder either. Rowan Atkinson is a comedy god.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:53 am | Comment

To t-co,
I wasn’t a crazy LA confidential fan, so I can’t say the plot details resonate much or seem all that appealing. If he’s aiming for those movies ( a better tomorrow in particular) then good luck to him cuz he’ll need it.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:53 am | Comment

“Thousands, out of a city of millions. Try harder”
Still a large increase in the numbers. Where previously it was maybe hundreds, that turned to thousands.
They still come out in huge numbers – you should see downtown Auckland.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:53 am | Comment

Apol. To continue. Authenticity fact checker. I have a good Chinese friend who played in a band for about ten years (1990 – 2000), covering EVERY sleazy nigh club then found in the Pearl River Delta.

I think we could have a long opening sequence which would leave Takashi Miike’s Dead or Alive in the dust, when it comes to pure sleaze and authenticity.

December 7, 2012 @ 7:54 am | Comment

Still a large increase in the numbers. Where previously it was maybe hundreds, that turned to thousands.
They still come out in huge numbers – you should see downtown Auckland.

The other point is that any pre-handover emigration can be more attributed to Beijing’s bark than it’s bite, and if you wanted to zero in on repression as the driving variable behind leaving HK, then you could attribute large chunks of post-handover emigration to the same bark rather than bite.

Hong Kong’s rule of law and civil liberties have not changed one whit since the handover, and, if the elections take place in 2017, (which under a Xi administration I think should happen) they can be said to have measurably improved.

Basically I’m not buying the claim that HK emigres represent some sort of terrifying ordeal Hong Kong is being subjected to. Hong Kong has been making money off China for nearly all of its existence, so why should Hong Kongers hate being a part of China?

December 7, 2012 @ 7:57 am | Comment

Apol. To continue. Authenticity fact checker. I have a good Chinese friend who played in a band for about ten years (1990 – 2000), covering EVERY sleazy nigh club then found in the Pearl River Delta.
I think we could have a long opening sequence which would leave Takashi Miike’s Dead or Alive in the dust, when it comes to pure sleaze and authenticity.

If you’re for real, contact me off this thread. I’ll ping you my email from your blog’s contact page

December 7, 2012 @ 7:58 am | Comment

Good Brit movies? Oooooh, the Ladykillers is good. And the Italian Job (“You’re only meant to blow the bloody doors off!”). I also enjoyed Life of Brian.
I’m not sure how the James Bond franchise classes – that’s Hollywood…but it’s British. The more recent ones were enjoyable. But that does remind me of The Pink Panther (with Sellers). And The Office – not the American one. I worked near Slough and had a boss that was oh so similar…probably one of the main reasons for emigrating (heck, even Betjeman advocated the bombing of Slough…)

December 7, 2012 @ 7:59 am | Comment

Do you guys have too much time on your hands or what?

December 7, 2012 @ 7:59 am | Comment

I wasn’t a crazy LA confidential fan, so I can’t say the plot details resonate much or seem all that appealing. If he’s aiming for those movies ( a better tomorrow in particular) then good luck to him cuz he’ll need it.

Hmmm, okay. Actually this is something we have been wondering about, since LA Con had a good run in America, but US audience tastes differ from HK or Mainlander tastes (as those two aren’t the same either). So… what didn’t you like about it?

December 7, 2012 @ 8:00 am | Comment

“Basically I’m not buying the claim that HK emigres represent some sort of terrifying ordeal Hong Kong is being subjected to. Hong Kong has been making money off China for nearly all of its existence, so why should Hong Kongers hate being a part of China?”

I don’t think they do hate being a part of China. None of the (British) Hong Kongers I know hate being Chinese. All are rather proud of it. I have a feeling the argument is more that the CCP is not China and that’s what many appear to have slight issues with… In this I think most HKers are like the Mainlanders that have left – they don’t hate China or being Chinese but there’s some feeling that it’s safer to have that exit planned. As well as air, food, healthcare etc, etc…

December 7, 2012 @ 8:03 am | Comment

Chariots of Fire was British. Don’t remember if the one that got the Oscar was a remake by Hollywood or not – it did look big budget, if I remember correctly.

I believe the sequel to that (about how the runner retired, and went to China to proselytize) was pitched as a movie. They tried to get city money from a number of Chinese secondary cities. Don’t know if it ever moved forward.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:04 am | Comment

“Do you guys have too much time on your hands or what?”

See comment 151 😉

December 7, 2012 @ 8:04 am | Comment

@ T_CO. Strongly recommend that our now co-production totally excludes any and all Caucasian actors. Strictly Mandarin or Cantonese. Japan makes killer hard-boiled flics and there is not a honky in sight. Absolutely, no theoretical underlined reason why China couldn’t do the same.

I would walk a country mile to see Beijing Blues.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:06 am | Comment

Downton Abbey – wife’s fave at the mo. Seems popular with a lot of Chinese as it resembles some famous Chinese story about a family and their servants.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:06 am | Comment

Thought that the Tai Ping Revolution would make a good movie, and then a TV franchise. Much more colorful than 3-Kingdoms, with many more tragic heroes. It was the first Chinese attempt to go with democracy and Western styled government, and it turned out very badly. The resulting turmoil cost China about 1/3rd of her population.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:15 am | Comment

Chariots of Fire contains an absolutely crap tear jerk plot, which I suspect would be looked upon favourably as a remake by SARFT, due to its moral uplift. Vomitious.

Move SARFT and the Party out of the ambit of influence, and I’m certain there are Chinese directors capable to turning out seriously gritty flics with very high production values. To be sure, many of these movies would go straight to DVD initially, but as witnessed by Japanese, DVD sales and rentals can be truly massive, before directors go on to open in the big movie complexes.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:23 am | Comment

To T-co,
nothing in particularly I disliked about LA Confidential; just was rather indifferent about it. Didn’t leave the theater wanting to see it again, and have only seen it that one time. Unlike, say, The Departed, which I’ve seen multiple times and bought the proverbial T-shirt.

I agree with what I interpret as your point about Hollywood. The studios are in it to make money, and that is the prism that drives decisions. If there is an Asian lead who could draw like Smith, Damon, or Di Caprio, that guy would be cast. If there was a story about an Asian protagonist that would be box office gold, that story would get green-lit. It’s bizarre to me that people would have selective recall and cherry pick stuff just to support an artificial narrative of some anti-China/racial suppression motive.

I can only speak from personal experience that I left HK before the CCP came. In retrospect, that may have been unnecessary, as things turned out…so far. And if you’re right about 2017, and Xi allows real progress, then so much the better. Alas, don’t regret leaving one bit, if for no other reason that I can now enjoy the sports I enjoy, which would not have been possible in HK (though I hear it’s slowly improving). Of course, there is also the spectre of 2047, but it may be a brave new world by then, with any luck. And at that point, I’ll probably be more worried about the resilience of adult incontinence pads than with the resilience of HK and CHina.

December 7, 2012 @ 8:52 am | Comment

http://andrewhong.net/2012/09/07/hong-kong-national-education-get-ready-for-a-new-wave-of-migration/
“The announcement of the 1997 British handover of Hong Kong to China led to an estimated 10 percent of the population taking up citizenship in places like Canada, the United States, and Australia. This led to the huge wave of migration that we saw in Australia in the late ’80s and ’90s.”

Aha. Thought so. OK, it does say after this sentence that there’s a trickle coming back….but I feel vindicated 🙂 Even though 10% or millions is still thousands, but 10% is 10% and that 10% aren’t the thickies at the bottom of the pile.

December 7, 2012 @ 9:09 am | Comment

Those who left were fools. Those who stayed and bought up the vacated real estate (like the pigheaded), made a bundle.

December 7, 2012 @ 9:19 am | Comment

“Those who left were fools.”
Aaah, mate, don’t be so hard on yourself. Hindsight is 20/20 but really, how would you know about the prices of things? Some people did make money, though – property in London, Manchester, Auckland, Vancouver etc also went up – just had to sell before the bubbles popped.
Top tip – Auckland prices are going up…but you have to fight off the Chinese investors to make a purchase….

December 7, 2012 @ 9:36 am | Comment

@ SKC. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to project a movie culture scene for China consisting of big box office stuff with big draw stars. This mentality leads to rat shit outcomes. Why finance on hoped for blockbusters, when that finance can launch ten less ambitious projects.

There is an alternative. Lets assume ground zero in Chinese cinema now, and no political interference in script development, plot/character development etc, and all that other stuff which goes into the making a good movie.

Also forget about China’s pantheon of existing stars and starlets….christ, they are all tainted and getting old, or in the gossip mags. And most of all forget the blockbuster mentality.

I,m sure there are tons of young aspiring film makers in China at the mo, some with talent and access to money, and some with one and not the other. No money, go lo-fi with a digital camera.

It takes time and it will probably be a Darwinain process. Script writers will need to develop their craft as will all the other isms require to make a movie. New main and support actors will develop their skills and personnas. Tons of low budget movies will be made. Many of them won’t even be bootlegged, while others will rise to the fore and capture a small amount of public attention. Bigger budgets on bigger movies follow and sooner or later one will breakout in the West.

In my scenario, we would begin with a few El Mariachi’s (which made a squillion considering the initial outlay) and end up with a number of Chinese directors equivalent to John Sayles.

The latter is a pretty darn good outcome in my books.

Finally, the Hollywood mentality is turning out complete dross of such gut-wrenching proportions, that a good percentage of western film consumers would opt to spend their hard earned on a decent middle-range Chinese movie. At least that is the case in my social circle.

December 7, 2012 @ 9:37 am | Comment

@KT: I can recommend Jia Zhangke [贾樟柯] if you’re into indie movies. He’s the only guy I know who does hyperrealistic stuff, and there are no well-known actors in his movies (or it didn’t used to be – Zhao Tao is getting more exposure these days). He’s recently moved into the legal framework but I don’t think that’s making his movies worse. Incidentally, the first movie he did, Xiao Wu, gave him a fine of around 10000 RMB which was a lot at the time, the reason being that it won a prize at the Berlin International Film Festival despite not being registered, and even worse, depicted China in a negative light (though personally I don’t think it didn’t, but that’s another story).

December 7, 2012 @ 9:55 am | Comment

@SKC: “Of course, there is also the spectre of 2047, but it may be a brave new world by then, with any luck.”

I’m a 100% certain (or 95% at least) that China is going to have a very different political system by then. It’s 35 years into the future, after all. 35 years ago, very few predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, China choosing market reforms and the reunification of Germany. Things just won’t stay the same. Hey, even North Korea will be different.

December 7, 2012 @ 9:58 am | Comment

@ Wukailong. Many thanks. Time I did some serious research on indie Chinese cinema. Any other suggestions, hit my blog mail add.

All China bloody needs is its own successfully replicated Hollywood.

Nor does it need Taiwanese fluff comedies or South Korean MTV sheened flics.

December 7, 2012 @ 10:11 am | Comment

To KT,
I was trying to describe the typical Hollywood narrative among CCP apologists, as well as my understanding of what makes Hollywood go around. I don’t intend to suggest that the Hollywood model is what China requires, or wants. Though admittedly, I’m not high brow when it comes to flicks, though I can enjoy a good indie artsy thing as much as the next guy. And you’re right, for every high reward blockbuster like, say, MI 4, there will be high risk bombs like Battleship. For a nascent industry, it may well make better financial sense to go the low budget route, just to increase your chances of getting out of the red.

Maybe what China could use is stuff like Sundance. But the assumption of absence of political interference is also rather unrealistic right about now. Artsy stuff that meets CCP approval could be on the verge of nauseating.

+++++++++++++++
In my experience, many people came to Canada for the passport. Once they got it, quite a few went back to HK to work. If you were in certain industries, it was simply more lucrative in HK. For my line of work, staying in Canada was a no brainer. Not to mention that my house and my view would also not be feasible in HK.

December 7, 2012 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

@ Richard # 160. Tongue in cheek. Don’t know why you are complaining about all this traffic and well mannered cross-cultural exchange. It drives your advertising and I’ve now been invited to every possible dating site with the exception of the Ukraine.

Plus stock market brochures about why I shouldn’t invest my hard earned in Chinese shares. Even my cat errs on the side of caution there.

December 7, 2012 @ 2:18 pm | Comment

KT, I’m not complaining at all. I am just amazed at so many people devoting so much energy to an open thread. Keep commenting if you want.

December 8, 2012 @ 2:01 am | Comment

FYI, been doing a bit of thinking (and reading) on Liu Xiaobo. While publishing a Charter 08 and taking NED money were the wrong tactical moves to advance the cause of Chinese reform, his heart is in the right place.

I almost want to give him a clean bill of health, were it not for his pronouncements on how Western rule might be better for China (citing HK as an example). Stuff like that makes me (and other Chinese reformers) question his bona fides.

At least he’s determinedly thoughtful, unlike the attention hog Ai Weiwei is. Ai goes through the motions of looking like a dissident and reformer, but in reality I think he’s just a shell using the act of being a dissident to stay “fresh” in the ruthlessly faddish world of Chinese art. I sometimes wonder how real Chinese dissidents view him–useful lightning rod, or simply China’s equivalent of the shock jock Howard Stern?

December 8, 2012 @ 8:48 am | Comment

http://english.caixin.com/2012-12-07/100470022_all.html

Gripping article on the drama in Chongqing

–SKC, KT, Goldy, Zhu–

Maybe we should set LA Confidential in Chongqing instead? hahaha

December 8, 2012 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Certainly full of rotten characters. But where’s the good cop? Who would play the naive/idealistic good guy who gets the babe? Perhaps you’ll have to change it to a lawyer and model it after this Li dude.

Kidding aside, it’s pretty disturbing, and pathetic, that all of this was allowed to go down when Bo was in favour, and this litany of wrongs (and probably many others) only begin to have a chance to be righted after a shift in the political winds. That’s not law, or justice. That’s just the 21st century version of the medieval concept of might makes right. It’s yet another encapsulation of all that is wrong with the CCP.

December 8, 2012 @ 2:55 pm | Comment

@“If we made Hollywood quality movies starring all-Chinese casts, Chinese people would flock to watch it–but unfortunately Hollywood won’t because that won’t make it money.”

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Hero made millions in US box office.

December 8, 2012 @ 4:43 pm | Comment

“I almost want to give him a clean bill of health, were it not for his pronouncements on how Western rule might be better for China (citing HK as an example). Stuff like that makes me (and other Chinese reformers) question his bona fides.”

Really, t_co, you either need to find new talking points or give up on the pretension to be a Chinese reformer. Everything you say about Liu and Ai fits perfectly with the standard apologist screeds against them on various newsites, albeit in a slightly more generous form. You don’t think that’s a bit embarrassing? Here is one, with “JMWong” providing the service.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/27/china-liu-xiaobo-nobel-peace-prize

What evidence is there that Liu wanted any western nation to rule China?

December 8, 2012 @ 5:56 pm | Comment

T_CO. One thing is certain, this flic shouldn’t emulate LA Confidential. I would be looking for a grainier, much more washed out colour palette. And no one would wear a hat, and I would be looking for a Japanese continuity editor.

I would also want everybody to see Youth of the Beast/Seijun Suzuki and Battles without Honour and Humanity/Kinji Fukasadu just to make them forget every Hollywood movie they’ve ever seen. Maybe even throw in Bangkok Dangerous by the Kong Brothers.

Having trouble envisioning a sound track though.

December 8, 2012 @ 6:50 pm | Comment

@Jason. Apologies, but I can’t see any openings in this film for you, since your taste in movies stinks to be perfectly honest.

December 8, 2012 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

@KT

Come again.

December 8, 2012 @ 7:12 pm | Comment

@Handler

In addition to his support of US on Vietnam/Korean/Iraqi War (even calling Senator Kerry, a slander-monger) and NATO on Afghanistan, Liu said that China’s tragedy is that it wasn’t colonised for at least 300 years by a Western power or Japan.

December 8, 2012 @ 7:21 pm | Comment

According to “JMWong”, “jerrycom”, and “leeweeshing” BTL in the article I linked to, everybody knows this but no one can link to it or prove it. The rumor been circulating among apologists for some time now. Yet where is there a reliable citation of the source text? Sautman apparently has provided citations “no longer found”, which includes one on the phrase “to choose westernization is to choose to be human,” yet strangely he doesn’t link to the money quote in his Guardian hit piece. And his articles or (once working, I presume) links appear to be the citation for every other article on the subject.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-winner-liu-xiaobo-chinese-dissident

So we are left with the quote he provides:

“It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough.”

Which is not an explicit call for Western rule of China, and compared to a lot of what is published in Hong Kong, is light fare.

December 8, 2012 @ 9:58 pm | Comment

“It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough.”

That’s not a call for colonization?

December 8, 2012 @ 11:11 pm | Comment

Again, the issue is that with comments like that, he will have 1) a tough time arousing much sympathy from a domestic Chinese audience for him and his wife’s ‘plight’ (I put this in quotation marks because much of Liu Xia’s treatment has to do with the fact that she sent threats to the court which passed judgment on her husband) and 2) a tough time getting Chinese intelligentsia and decision-makers to take his views as ones presented in good faith and not as a proxy for foreign interests.

You’re arguing the question of “ought”, Handler. I’m arguing the question of “is”. What “is” can be proven or disproven, but on the question of what “ought”, I will have my beliefs, and you will have yours, and no amount of arguing from either side can really convince the other.

December 8, 2012 @ 11:17 pm | Comment

The key criterion I use to assess whether someone is a “Chinese reformer” is whether they are wholeheartedly trying to find the most best path in the realm of answers of “what is” to fulfill their wishes of “what ought to be” for China.

December 8, 2012 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

“It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough.”

What part of this ~30 year old statement is an actual serious call for colonisation?

“The key criterion I use to assess whether someone is a “Chinese reformer” is whether they are wholeheartedly trying to find the most best path in the realm of answers of “what is” to fulfill their wishes of “what ought to be” for China.”

I seem to remember a Chinese leader who was full of ideas of what the best path for achieving his wishes of “what ought to be” for China – including the mass production of low-grade steel, brainwashing, the smashing of ancient culture and so-forth. Was he also a ‘reformer’?

“Again, the issue is that with comments like that, he will have 1) a tough time arousing much sympathy from a domestic Chinese audience for him and his wife’s ‘plight’ (I put this in quotation marks because much of Liu Xia’s treatment has to do with the fact that she sent threats to the court which passed judgment on her husband) and 2) a tough time getting Chinese intelligentsia and decision-makers to take his views as ones presented in good faith and not as a proxy for foreign interests.”

According to you people have ‘no sympathy’ for someone they are not even allowed to hear about, a defenceless and totally innocent woman ‘threatened’ a court (how?) and therefore deserves to be kept in permanent house arrest without trial, Liu Xiaobo should be totally ignored because whilst denied employment by the state he took foreign grants (unlike people like Sun Yat-sen), and publishing Charter 08 was a mistake even though all the majority of what it said were things the CCP has at one time or another supported. And you call yourself a reformer?

December 9, 2012 @ 12:36 am | Comment

Thank you, FOARP.

December 9, 2012 @ 1:50 am | Comment

@t_co

“It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough.”

So the 300 years is not a clue that this is a bit of hyperbole? You actually think he is calling for 300 years of colonization, that that is a serious estimation calculated with care, and thus a serious recommendation?

What he is saying is that China is so backward legally, politically and socially that it can’t even hope to be like Hong Kong even if it underwent the same process of development.

“Again, the issue is that with comments like that, he will have 1) a tough time arousing much sympathy from a domestic Chinese audience for him and his wife’s ‘plight’ (I put this in quotation marks because much of Liu Xia’s treatment has to do with the fact that she sent threats to the court which passed judgment on her husband) and 2) a tough time getting Chinese intelligentsia and decision-makers to take his views as ones presented in good faith and not as a proxy for foreign interests.”

1) I presume you have reliable evidence for indicting Liu Xia all on your own. 2) Then again, I don’t think people who repeat rumors about his purported call for 300 years of colonization without being able to link to independent evidence are intelligent or concerned with good faith.

“You’re arguing the question of “ought”, Handler. I’m arguing the question of “is”. What “is” can be proven or disproven, but on the question of what “ought”, I will have my beliefs, and you will have yours, and no amount of arguing from either side can really convince the other.”

You know, your inanities don’t speak to the sincerity of your position as much as a link to reliably independent evidence would. Your assumption that he actually did call for China to be colonized–which leads to how he is handled by Chinese “intelligentsia”–is no more an argument of “is” than my own. What source text did you see his comments in?

“The key criterion I use to assess whether someone is a “Chinese reformer” is whether they are wholeheartedly trying to find the most best path in the realm of answers of “what is” to fulfill their wishes of “what ought to be” for China.”

That’s funny. The key criterion I use to assess whether someone is a “Chinese reformer” is whether he has a handle-bar mustache. I mean, that’s at least a more discriminating qualification than your own.

December 9, 2012 @ 1:55 am | Comment

@FOARP 194

No, Liu, Xiaobo should not be ignored. He is criminal who took foreign government money and viciously attacked the very Constitution of China. In my opinion his 11 year sentence is too light.

Liu, Xia looks very much the part of a brainwashed “Tibetan native” – with her shaved head and prone to outbursts of throwing tearful temper tantrums in front of the camera. Very unappealing and very un-Chinese.

I totally agree that few Chinese would sympathize with such traitors of the national cause. These are not reformers. They lack the intellectual capabilities or people skills to convince or to make things happen in China. Yet they take foreign government money to subvert China. History spits on such.

December 9, 2012 @ 2:45 am | Comment

@Handler 196

It is well recognized by most Chinese (go look at the 100,000,000 strong Chinese blogosphere, if you can read the language) that Liu was serious when he mentioned colonization – he actually believes that colonization is better for China than the CPC. He follows it up with taking foreign government money to subvert and try to advocate the overthrow of the CPC led SWCC.

In most countries he’d be shot for the crime.

“China is so backward legally, politically and socially”?? HOW backward?? Up from nothing at the turn of WWII, today No. 1 in over half of basic industries, number 2 (and very soon number 1) economy on Earth, 8.4% growth this quarter, and close to 9.5% average in 2009, 2010, and 2011. HOW BACKWARD?

Sometimes one has to wonder whether mad cow has wider effects in the West than previously reported.

December 9, 2012 @ 2:54 am | Comment

“Liu, Xia looks very much the part of a brainwashed “Tibetan native” – with her shaved head and prone to outbursts of throwing tearful temper tantrums in front of the camera. Very unappealing and very un-Chinese.”

“China is so backward legally, politically and socially”?? HOW backward??

It counts you as a supporter.

“It is well recognized by most Chinese (go look at the 100,000,000 strong Chinese blogosphere, if you can read the language) that Liu was serious when he mentioned colonization – he actually believes that colonization is better for China than the CPC. He follows it up with taking foreign government money to subvert and try to advocate the overthrow of the CPC led SWCC.”

Shouldn’t be any difficulty finding a strong citation then. *twiddles thumbs*

December 9, 2012 @ 3:19 am | Comment

That Liu quote about HK is old news. It’s been trotted out by Jason and apologists like him too many times to count.

First off, it’s stupid to judge a guy based on what he said several decades ago, in isolation. I expect that of Jason and Zoo cuz they don’t know any better; I’m surprised that t-co would do this, however.

Second, Liu was comparing HK to what it would take for China to become something resembling HK, in terms of development. He’s not saying that China needs to or ought to become HK. As FOARP says, it’s a metric to show how backward China was at the time. People who see that quote, even in isolation, as a call for China to be colonized want to or need to see that.

As for reformer bona-fides, the Charter lists what Liu thinks “ought” to occur for China. By extension, he is identifying the myriad shortcomings with what “is” China. I’m not sure what else is required, unless someone wants to or needs to see that HK quote through a pre-ordained prism.

And really, if Liu Xia threatened somebody, then for fucks sake charge her with it. House-arrest without charge and without conviction is just bullshit of the highest order…or just any given Sunday under the CCP. What’s not to like about that, eh? Just another sign of corrupt local officials who aren’t under the control of the Politburo…even if they do live in the same frickin city.

++++++++++++

To Zoo-keeper,
give it a rest. Read the verdict that WKL provided. Total utter complete ignorance of reality cannot be an enduring excuse even for a flaming 5-star idiot like you.

December 9, 2012 @ 3:21 am | Comment

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