Notice the age of the woman who had her feed bound. This is an old, outdated practice and even the ‘nasty’ ccp banned this practice. I would be surprised that this happen today in large numbers.

July 17, 2008 @ 8:46 pm | Comment

Pugster, do you think anyone here doesn’t know that this is an old custom that isn’t practiced anymore? Mao was always against it, something I’ve written about here before. Interesting, the automatic defense of the CCP, when nothing was said about them.

July 17, 2008 @ 9:30 pm | Comment

@tug_ster

Don’t get your panties in a twist. As Richard points out, there was no reference to the CCP in his original post. On the other hand, since you brought it up, life for Chinese women in the People’s Republic isn’t exactly smooth sailing. In case you haven’t heard, domestic violence, like footbinding, is another of China’s esteemed traditions – and it’s alive and well. Surveys taken in 2001 suggest that domestic violence occurs in 21 to 35 percent of Chinese marriages, and that in 90 percent of cases it is the woman who is the victim. (I seem to recall that ‘The Vagina Monologues’ was banned in China several years ago because of the sensitivity of the subject matter (i.e., domestic violence). Of course, another reason is that CCP nannies apparently believe that the Chinese people are not emotionally prepared to hear the word ‘vagina’ spoken in public.) And who, you ask, wins the gold medal for female suicide? You guessed it, tug_ster, CHINA! (Cue Music) Qi lai! Qi lai! Qi lai!

So much for “Women hold up half the sky.”

July 17, 2008 @ 10:09 pm | Comment

@Richard,

Who knows, some uninformed readers thinks that CCP is the root of evil, including foot binding.

@Hong,

You’re talking as if Suicides and domestic violence happen in China only, but it happens in other countries also, and some in higher rates than in China.

July 17, 2008 @ 10:19 pm | Comment

some uninformed readers thinks that CCP is the root of evil, including foot binding

Who? Do you have a link or a quote?

July 17, 2008 @ 10:31 pm | Comment

@tug_ster

You broken record. Stop with the “You do it too” defense, why don’t you. It’s ignorant, cowardly, and uninteresting. No one ever suggested that the bad things that happen in China are unique to China. Having said that, many of the bad things that take place in China are more common there than in other places. Verstehst du? I mention female suicide because more Chinese women commit suicide than women of any other country. Haven’t heard? Not surprising.

July 17, 2008 @ 10:34 pm | Comment

@tug_ster

Come to think of it, if you can’t offer anything better than the “You do it too” defense, why not rejoin your idiot fifty-center friends back at ‘Snog for China’.

July 17, 2008 @ 10:40 pm | Comment

@Hong, big woop not don’t tell me that CCP has something to do with female suicides. Why don’t you tell us how great Taiwan is when suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in teens.

July 17, 2008 @ 10:47 pm | Comment

@tug_ster

You are a monumental ignoramus.

July 17, 2008 @ 10:58 pm | Comment

I did a post on female suicide in China a couple of years ago. A point I made at the time was that foot binding may be a thing of the past, but the treatment of women as ornaments or sex objects born to serve the whim of men is not. At least not in much of the country (as always, the coastal cities are in a class by themselves). I don’t blame the CCP for this, though their values-free philosophy hasn’t helped to improve the plight of abused women.

July 17, 2008 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

@Hong,

Don’t worry. I don’t get offended from people who are suffering from a Superiority Complex and obviously you have a need to call people names in order to feed your simplistic ego.

@Richard,

I don’t read all of your blogs and I don’t remember every word you say. You seriously think that Chinese women bound their feet so that they can be sex objects for men? The Chinese girls’ mothers are the ones who binds their kids feet as a way for a women’s pursuit of beauty. It is no different today from why any women would have long hair when you have to spend 1/2 hour everyday to wash it, wearing long heels that would cause to themselves to trip, pointed shoes that cause feet problems, and wearing skirts in the freezing weather. Feet binding, however cruel and inhumane is considered a status symbol at its time.

July 18, 2008 @ 12:24 am | Comment

In defense of the CCP in women liberation, CCP did a lot more than any previous regime, the Nationalist included. But stopping bound feet was not one of them. Bound feet was denounce even before 1911. In the late days of Qing dynasty, Chinese intellectuals were already denouncing the practice, and most people don’t do it.

Another piece of information: Do you know that only girls in rich families got bound feet ? Girls in poor families had to perform manual labor at home, and after getting married. Bound feet would reduce their utility both at home, and in future husband’s home. And girl sold as maids can’t have bound feet either, because she had to support her mistress (with bound feet) to go around the house.

Secondly, Manchurian girls didn’t have bound feet. Only Han girls did. It was a Han tradition. Other nationalities didn’t practice this.

So, if you see any woman with bound feet, she should be a Han, and not from a poor family.

Anyway, the lady in the picture doesn’t look old enough. She must have her feet bound while it wasn’t in vogue anymore. That’s sad. All the suffering for nothing.

July 18, 2008 @ 1:25 am | Comment

My grandmother had half-bound feet. It was very painful and they (the feet) weren’t pretty. It was a symbol for status and breeding.
Without the bound feet it was not possible to marry into a well-to-do family (wealth+having high social status). But then she had to help in the field sometime, so they stopped the binding.
To say it was just a fashion and the mother was just trying to make the daughter look pretty is an insulting understatement. It is a rotten tradition bred by the society to use women as objects for their “family’s cause”, no matter what the mothers of the women might have felt (it is for her own good!) when binding their daughters’ feet.

Besides, what does the teen suicide in Taiwan have anything to do with anything here?

July 18, 2008 @ 1:51 am | Comment

I dont find it sad, I find it very disgusting.
you should have put warning signs. if I knew it I would have never clicked it.

July 18, 2008 @ 2:03 am | Comment

I mention female suicide because more Chinese women commit suicide than women of any other country.

This is only because pesticides are more lethal than Tylenol. If you want to act like it’s some kind of cultural thing, you might want to ask why rape and murder against women is 10-100x more common in “the West” than in China.

I’d rather have my feet bound than be raped and murdered, but it’s a pretty shitty choice.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:11 am | Comment

you might want to ask why rape and murder against women is 10-100x more common in “the West” than in China

Is rape more common, or more commonly reported? In North America and Europe it is much less likely for a woman to not report a rape or sexual assault.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:19 am | Comment

Likewise, now we have women slicing off bits of their bones, cutting their faces open, breaking their legs, wearing high heels, burning their skin under the sun until they get cancer, etc in the “pure and virtuous West”.

If you’re trying to say everyone knows it happens in every country, then drop your arrogant tone. Sexism in Confucian societies is suffocating and cruel, but men there are also forced into rigid roles and have ridiculous expectations heaped upon them.

In the enlightened and infallible West women just get beaten, raped, molested, robbed, cheated, and murdered quite a lot by unfamiliar men.

If anything your paternalistic and overbearing tone stems the natural incliniation to fix these problems and instead makes “adhering to tradition” an act of defiance against the West. This is what happened with Korea (no one has criticized SE/NE China as much for it yet) and the consumption of dog meat. They were on the way to reforming the practice but PETA went in and called them barbaric so they decided to cling onto it for a little longer.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:19 am | Comment

Is rape more common, or more commonly reported? In North America and Europe it is much less likely for a woman to not report a rape or sexual assault.

This is also a racist white myth. The “submissive Oriental geisha” won’t report crimes!

Just a few years ago a Japanese woman was kidnapped and gang-raped by racist Americans who believed this. Turns out there is no “cultural aversion” to reporting crimes.

Regardless, the reported rapes in China are low but I wouldn’t know how accurate the crime statistics are there. However in Hong Kong and Japan the rates are very low and the police and cases are more often solved there than in America and Europe.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:22 am | Comment

*the police are more likely to solve cases

July 18, 2008 @ 6:38 am | Comment

Just a few years ago a Japanese woman was kidnapped and gang-raped by racist Americans who believed this

Did I talk about Japanese women? The matter under discussion is the state of Chinese women. Yet of course you assume that the comment was a wide-ranging one regarding all women from the Far East because I’m not from that region.

As usual, the only racism is coming from you.

July 18, 2008 @ 6:51 am | Comment

Nope, as usual you are defaulting to a cultural supremacist viewpoint and you get extremely annoyed when it is challenged.

Please tell me why you would use China as an analogue to “Europe and North America” unless you are strictly referring to culture or are you using a cultural group in one case and a specific country otherwise? So you flip-flop and contradict yourself just to spite me?

If it’s not “culture” then what makes it so crimes are underreported relative to the West?

Or do you think Japan is part of “the West”? It’s pretty ridiculous when “fenqing” think that too.

July 18, 2008 @ 7:03 am | Comment

And another thread bites the dust…

I’m going to try to steer this back to the original topic, and to make up for the fact that I linked to the wrong book at Danwei, but Dorothy Ko’s book Cinderalla’s Sisters is really the ultimate word on the subject of footbinding how it fits into issues of gender in Chinese history, and is a must-read for anyone interested in the topic.

July 18, 2008 @ 8:09 am | Comment

Sorry Ferin, sunbathing and wearing high heels may be bad, but the comparison with foot-binding, which results in immediate and perpetual agony is simply ludicrous.

Bill, women’s liberation is an area where I give the Mao of the 1950s high marks. And there were other excellent reforms he made as well. Unfortunately, they mainly came during his first years in power, and were quickly eclipsed by the horrors of the Great Leap Backwards, with even more fun later to come.

July 18, 2008 @ 8:22 am | Comment

Jeremiah’s right. Ferin, I hate to be mean and you know I try to be liberal about comments, but every thread you touch becomes a shouting match and veers way off topic in a consistent pattern – “America is worse.” Maybe a permanent ban is called for…

July 18, 2008 @ 8:53 am | Comment

Can you post some photos of eunuchs?

July 18, 2008 @ 9:20 am | Comment

is really the ultimte word on the subject of footbinding and gender in China

Just wanted to ask while I’m reading it, is she an “Asian-American feminist”?

Sorry Ferin, sunbathing and wearing high heels may be bad, but the comparison with foot-binding, which results in immediate and perpetual agony is simply ludicrous.

I love being told about foot-binding by Americans because apparently I don’t know it well enough by my grandmother’s first-hand experience with it. Okay whatever, you win, all Chinese men are big bad evil sexists.

consistent pattern –

No offense but I thought TPD liked consistent patterns, which is “oh look how backwards China is compared to the West!”

I think you kinda need at least one dissenting view instead of yes-men and bobble heads.

July 18, 2008 @ 9:42 am | Comment

Can you post some photos of eunuchs?

They don’t quite evoke the White Man’s Burden so strongly, because there are no submissive Orientals to be “liberated”.

July 18, 2008 @ 9:46 am | Comment

ferin’s got the DTs – and he sees white people everywhere out to “liberate” him. Run, ferin, run! Whitey’s coming! And he’s got an basketful of mayonnaise sandwiches and a six pack of Tab with your name on it.

I do agree with him, though. I would rather have my feet bound than to get beaten, raped, molested, robbed, cheated, and murdered by quite a lot by unfamiliar men. And that is clearly the choice here. He forgot set on fire, because I think a few women in the West have been set on fire, too.

So let’s all bind our feet and then stomp on burning effigies of Rudyard Kipling!

July 18, 2008 @ 11:07 am | Comment

Ferin,

I have no idea in the world how you might define “Asian-American feminist.” Care to, erm, enlighten us?

I will say that in the field of gender and women in Chinese history–and coming from somebody who has taken more than his fair share of graduate seminars on those topics–she’s one of the very best.

But…isn’t that just classic Ferin? Before you assess the argument or critically review the source material, you try to pigeonhole somebody as “this” or “that.”

You really are an anti-intellectual little twit, aren’t you?

July 18, 2008 @ 11:55 am | Comment

‘I think you kinda need at least one dissenting view instead of yes-men and bobble heads.’

no, we need intelligent comments

To say that rape/murder is more prevalent in the West than China – where are your statistics – or should I say mildly – the true numbers?

July 18, 2008 @ 11:57 am | Comment

@bigdog,

and I suppose “more Chinese women commit suicide than women of any other country” is intelligent comment? lol, even its true what does that even prove? more chinese women breath air than women of any other country too, and more chinese women bitch-slap men everyday than any other country too, have u ever heard the word 母老虎？

July 18, 2008 @ 12:23 pm | Comment

He forgot set on fire, because I think a few women in the West have been set on fire, too.

That would be India.

To say that rape/murder is more prevalent in the West than China – where are your statistics – or should I say mildly – the true numbers?

Go get them from the same place you got your suicide statistics, unless you just want to be a lazy bastard.

July 18, 2008 @ 12:53 pm | Comment

LOL@Hongwang.

RE: underreporting of sex crimes

It is a problem in South Korea, not only because of shame but because the police aren’t trained in handling evidence or treating victims with compassion and sensitivity. I know a few stories of foreign and Korean rape victims who did report the crimes to the police, and the behavior of Korean law enforcement would make your hair stand on end.

July 18, 2008 @ 12:54 pm | Comment

It is a problem in South Korea

Relative to who, though? Even within “Europe and North America” there is a wide variation when it comes to reportage of sex crimes. This isn’t even counting Eastern Europe and Russia which is a total mess when it comes to crime.

July 18, 2008 @ 12:56 pm | Comment

Well, I think we need more links to actual studies in this thread.

In the last several years, I’ve seen several studies on gender equality in Asia, including some done by economists, that used numerical criteria — usually comparing male and female incomes, education levels, and representation in management. They’ve all had the same thesis — that gender equality is good for the economy. The studies all had the same results — China and Thailand were at or near the top for both gender equality and economic growth, while South Korea and Japan were at the bottom for both.

Here’s an article on one such study in the International Herald Tribune:

http://tiny.cc/vUFET

The big caveat with these studies is that they usually only measured URBAN Chinese. But they’re worth considering when faced with the blanket generalizations about China that we’ve seen in this thread already.

July 18, 2008 @ 1:07 pm | Comment

The link isn’t working for me =P

July 18, 2008 @ 1:14 pm | Comment

nm sorry, wasn’t used to tiny.cc

South Korea’s economy is doing better than Thailand’s ; but the average South Korean man works 12-13 hours which is a pretty bad role to be forced into too.

July 18, 2008 @ 1:15 pm | Comment

Sheesh, I forgot to even mention the original photographs!

They did sadden me, but their impact probably wasn’t the same as for others because I’ve already seen older photos of foot binding.

Another reason is that I’ve seen — in real-life, here in China — plenty of people who were _missing_ hands or feet, probably due to industrial accidents.

It’s too bad there is no interview or any sort of context to the photos. I’ve read that woman with partially bound feet were sometimes expected to labour like other women after the formation of the PRC; she could have had a very hard life. But without her history, it’s hard to put these photos into perspective. For all we know, she DOESN’T feel sorry for herself, so maybe our pity isn’t something she needs!

July 18, 2008 @ 1:23 pm | Comment

For all we know, she DOESN’T feel sorry for herself

I know my grandmother said often that she thought her feet were beautiful. I wouldn’t know, it’s not really for me to pry.

I do know that she never felt sorry for herself.

July 18, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

I know this is a complex topic. Like female genital mutilation, many women accept it as part of their cultural heritage and want it performed on themselves. I realize this may be A-OK with them, having their bodies mutilated and enduring unimaginable physical pain. I understand it. Many mothers in the Thai countryside are proud of their 16-year-old daughters who go to Bangkok and raise their families’ standard of living exponentially by prostitution; they are treated like heroes in their hometowns. To a Westerner that may sound shocking and incomprehensible, but I understand it. And I realize these things – bound feet, genital mutilation, borderline-childhood prostitution – may not be sad to these people, but something they embrace, for whatever reasons. And I admit it, even though I am aware of my Western filters, I still find these things sad. So sue me. In the case of foot binding, I know the CCP saw it as intolerable and helped abolish it altogether, though it was on the way out already. They, too, saw it as a sad thing. A bad thing.

These are tricky topics to navigate. Some Muslims believe in honor killing, with a father murdering his daughter because she was raped by one of her brothers. I understand it. It’s their culture. Moral relativism and all that. And I still find it very sad.

July 18, 2008 @ 2:51 pm | Comment

It is. Good thing it’s over, for the most part.

Honor killings and female genital mutilations on the other hand, still happen (as does the bombing of said victimized women by America).

But no pictures this time ;p

July 18, 2008 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

i am curious to know why ferin, the fenqing with the reverse midas touch, was let back in. not only does he mainly just do hate filled rants, it is all very predictable and rather boring. there was a point when he appeared to have things to say but it is hard to see it anymore.

July 18, 2008 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Yep. Ferin, I’ve defended you in the past, but your constant “America did it TOO!!!!” reactions are just tedious, and for the most part, irrelevant.

I used to be a big-time cultural relativist, but I’ve gotten to the point where I just go, “sorry, that’s wrong!” Female genital mutilation? Sorry, wrong.

And yeah, America unilaterally invading a foreign country that did not attack it? That’s wrong too.

I really don’t care who does stupid, heinous shit. I will call them all out on it. But I decry the constant derailing of threads by this trying to justify one wrong with another that isn’t even related.

July 18, 2008 @ 4:23 pm | Comment

Some Muslims believe in honor killing, with a father murdering his daughter because she was raped by one of her brothers. I understand it. It’s their culture. Moral relativism and all that. And I still find it very sad.

Moral relativism. *groan* There is a limit, and that limit is the feelings of the person on the receiving end of culturally sanctioned violence. Some Chinese women may cherish their bound feet just as Pamela Anderson likes her balloons. However, I’m pretty sure that honor killing victims didn’t enjoy being stomped to death or strangled. I recall reading a story of an Iraqi girl who fell in love with a British soldier. They never even shared a kiss, but the father found out and beat his daughter to death. While some female relatives outwardly condone the murder of their daughter or sister, this horrified mother walked out on her husband. She said, “I cannot sleep with a father who would kill his own child.” Moreover, prominent Arab women like Queen Rania of Jordan have spoken out against honor killings.

Having lived in three cultures, I feel strongly that culture is a piss-poor excuse to abuse people. I do not recognize blanket “cultural relativity” bans on criticizing beliefs and practices in other cultures. I do believe in trying to understand the beliefs and practices from an insider’s viewpoint to the extent that one can and then making a judgment.

July 18, 2008 @ 10:41 pm | Comment

ferin is right, the tanning salons are very much analogous to foot binding practice. The only distinctions are the latter doesn’t cause cancer and it has been long extinct.

July 18, 2008 @ 11:45 pm | Comment

Yes Bob, tanning salons are worse than foot binding.

Sonagi, as always, you said it beautifully. Moral relativism is a canard. Some things are just plain bad, no matter how we try to explain them away as “a cultural thing.”

July 18, 2008 @ 11:59 pm | Comment

@Richard,

you know what’s really sad? bound feet, genital mutilation, borderline-childhood prostitution, these are bad things but these are not accepted by the main stream societies anywhere anymore, although some individuals may still practice them. Meanwhile, the Bible talks about killing infants and you still have to swear to it in a US court, now that is truely sad my friend.

July 19, 2008 @ 4:03 am | Comment

Richard,

I think it’d be an example of “fair and balanced” reporting, if you’d counterbalance your coverage of foot binding with a story on the Chinese Big Foot, i.e., the Wild Man of Hubei. Thanks.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/30/1056825326577.html

July 19, 2008 @ 8:29 am | Comment

Yep. Ferin, I’ve defended you in the past, but your constant “America did it TOO!!!!” reactions are just tedious, and for the most part, irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant when the criticisms are clearly coming from posters who are comparing China to themselves? If you all just say “we hold China to a higher standard because they have to or the world is fucked” then it would make sense; otherwise it is entirely relevant. When people are criticized they automatically compare themselves to others; very few are into that self-improvement thing.

there was a point when he appeared to have things to say

That’s because at that point in time there were threads that weren’t just a random jab at China. I mean for fuck’s sake, footbinding is over. If you want to tell people in China to “get over the Nanjing Massacre/World War 2” (as has been said plenty of times on this blog) then “get over” footbinding.

This makes less sense than a 15 year old in Beijing complaining about the bombing of Shanghai by Japan.

July 19, 2008 @ 8:55 am | Comment

“Meanwhile, the Bible talks about killing infants and you still have to swear to it in a US court, now that is truely sad my friend.”

Non-Christians like myself have the option of simply swearing an oath without using a Bible. Some Muslims have pushed for the right to take an oath on the Quran instead. Orthodox Jews believe a Torah belongs in a synogogue and prefer to take a simple oath. Tolerance of religious diversity and accommodation of different beliefs. Now that is beautiful.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:07 am | Comment

synogogue = synagogue

July 19, 2008 @ 9:08 am | Comment

Ferin, if you hate these threads so much, feel free not to read them. This blog is about a lot more than random jabs at China, and you know it.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:09 am | Comment

Tolerance of religious diversity and accommodation of different beliefs. Now that is beautiful.

Makes it all the more unfortunate that the West spat on everyone’s religion until after the Holocaust happened.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:10 am | Comment

This blog is about a lot more than random jabs at China, and you know it.

In the past few days there have been a) rumors of “racism” (that happen everywhere) and b) posts about a practice that was abolished almost a century ago.

I think what we need next is one about Shang Dynasty human sacrifice.

July 19, 2008 @ 9:12 am | Comment

Remind yourself,Nick, and this seedy little sepoy Indian Raj character of yours….that cutting niggers nuts off were a common practice in good ‘ol america not that long ago.
And by the sound of it as spoken by a Rev JJ….he made it sound like it is a practice still very much alive!

July 19, 2008 @ 10:04 am | Comment

“Non-Christians like myself have the option of simply swearing an oath without using a Bible. Some Muslims have pushed for the right to take an oath on the Quran instead. Orthodox Jews believe a Torah belongs in a synogogue and prefer to take a simple oath. Tolerance of religious diversity and accommodation of different beliefs. Now that is beautiful.”

So in the court of law, the place of justice and rightiousness, people swear to little books, which talk about killing infants or stoning women, and you call that beautiful? can u swear to Mein Kampf too?

July 19, 2008 @ 11:34 am | Comment

Oh, what the hell: keep Ferin, he’s such a perfect prototype. Of course you could throw out 3/4 of his garbage that just slows the thread down.

There was a beggar near my office in Shenzhen, Granny Liu, with 3-inch feet. I may still have a photo….if I can find it I’ll send it to you. From her look, I’d say she was close to 100. She was very sweet and I always wanted to get a translater for a sit-down visit with her. I guess her bit of history is lost now, because she’s disappeared.

What will Western folk say about our own body mutilation 50 years from now? I recently sat in a Wisconsin coffee house next to a woman, about my age (ahem…..over 50). Eyebrow ring all stretched out, tattoos so fat and saggy you couldn’t read them any more. Way to stick it to the man! Take your photos now, they may be precious history later.

July 20, 2008 @ 5:00 am | Comment

Eyebrow ring all stretched out, tattoos so fat and saggy you couldn’t read them any more.

She will probably die by age 65

July 20, 2008 @ 5:23 am | Comment

Too late, Ferin, but thanks for the valuable contribution. What size are your own feet? Stomping on comment threads flattened them out a bit? Could you please tell us how wonderful the Communist Party of China is, and what the average educated Chinese person says about them?

July 20, 2008 @ 10:55 am | Comment

“Could you please tell us how wonderful the Communist Party of China is, and what the average educated Chinese person says about them?”

Ferin wouldn’t know as he is neither educated nor Chinese.

July 20, 2008 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

In comparison an equally horrid historical practice of female body augmentation in the West would be waist cinching, for example.

A 12″ waist was prized by the gentlemen of the West before we became enlightened with the medial hazard of such practice. And just like the unbound feet of today’s Chinese women, our ladies are no longer subjected to misshapened corsets.

Can you imagine a waist smaller than a circle made with your thumbs and index fingers?

July 29, 2008 @ 2:33 pm | Comment