Beijing Bell Tower Thread

beijing bell tower.jpg

That last thread was a bit much. Let’s all be nice, okay?

Photo source: Snow Kisses Sky.

The Discussion: 130 Comments

One of my favorite places in Beijing is the Drum Tower (which for those unfamiliar, is directly across from the Bell Tower). I go there every time I’m in Beijing.

Great photo, by the way.

January 22, 2006 @ 8:25 pm | Comment

Is the above picture a picture of Dong Cheng Meng in Beijing, the one that was lighted in the 3 colors of the French flag during the Chinese-France cultural exchange month?

January 22, 2006 @ 8:39 pm | Comment

I love Gu-Lou.

January 22, 2006 @ 8:42 pm | Comment

Yes Zhongguo, because Chinese have, in the immortal words of the Queen’s consort, “slitty eyes”, I distrust this evil regime and consider them guilty before proven inncoent.
But wait! That implies there must be an investigation. Where’s the investigation the evil regime has commissioned to find the truth about 6.4? About the millions and millions millions and millions millions and millions millions and millions millions and millions millions and millions millions and millions of its own citizens it murdered (maybe 80 million)? Guilty of corruption? Guilty of oppression? Guilty of persecution? Guilty of incompetence in environmental and human rights standards? Guilty of their imperialist occupation of Tibet? Guilty of threatening Taiwan through armed brinksmanship? Guilty about its true complicity in wars in Korea, India and Vietnam? Guilty of stirring up trouble with all neigbouring countries that dare take a contrary position to it? Guilty through imperial dreams of claiming the whole South China Sea?
Guilty of hypocritically stirring its people into a mad bloodlust for Japan for doing what it is doing with its own history books? Guilty of blocking all websites it doesn’t want its subjects to know? Guilty of keeping its people stupid, servile, and malleable?
Yes. GUILTY. The fact are in. By stupidly trying to hide themin this day and age, the Chinese show their acknowledgement of their guilt.
And I add: every rising power, be it a religious group or political party, pleads a meek and mild agenda until it gains that power. Oh, just like the Chinese Communist party. Boy, were those stupid Chinese in for a surprise after 1949 when they found out exactly what Mao REALLY intended, huh?

January 22, 2006 @ 8:48 pm | Comment

Sorry Richard. I hate stupidity.

January 22, 2006 @ 8:49 pm | Comment

What is wrong Keir?

Maybe I will post another essay I wrote.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:00 pm | Comment

One of the things I love about Gulou are the guys who do the drum show. Young guys wearing Qing Dai outfits. They seem to be having such a good time, like, “I got the best gig in Beijing.” Probably don’t make much money but they sure seem to be enjoying what they do.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:01 pm | Comment

Keir, your comment is not in the spirit of Gu Lou. Whether it’s accurate or not is another story, but today we’re all supposed to think lovely thoughts.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:23 pm | Comment

Meanwhile, another blog wins the prize this week for some of the nastiest comments ever. Yikes.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:27 pm | Comment

This is Zhong (bell) Lou. Gu Lou is a bigger one in from of it.

My nursury is next to ZhongLou. I grew up there. ZhongLou is the tail end of forbidden city. The whole forbidden city looks like a dragon (before 1949) from sky, ZhongLou is the dragon tail.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:31 pm | Comment

Sorry about that last rant. Ummmm, Bell Tower. Yeah. Totally WOW, like, you know? Used to run past it everyday when I lived in Houhai before getting robbed and
sorry. Total bummer, man. Off to OZ! Cheerio SUCKERS!!!!!!!

January 22, 2006 @ 9:39 pm | Comment

PS:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

January 22, 2006 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

I love zhong lou too.
I do wonder why the drum and bell towers in Xian are larger than the ones in Peking.

January 22, 2006 @ 9:57 pm | Comment

On the Issue of “Path-Dependence”

First I want to explain what I mean by “Path-Dependence”. I believe Physics has such a term: it means that the change in energy of a movement depends on the path the object takes. For example, if you push a ball from point A to point B on a table, the frictional energy dissipated in the process depends on the path your ball takes to go from A to B. A straight line path would dissipate less energy than a curved line, even though the final destination is the same. Of course, there are also “path-independent”, for example if you drop a ball 12 meters, then the change in its potential energy is independent of the path the ball it takes.

But in this post, “path-dependence” takes on a completely different meaning, unrelated to physics. In this post, “path-dependence” means that if a person has chosen a “path” (a custom, a system, a habit, a culture, etc etc), it will be on a path of no return. The power of inertia will enhance and reinforce whatever path he chose and makes it almost impossible deviate from that path even if you wanted to. To illustrate this point, I want to give a simple story:

We put 5 monkeys in a cage, and put a banana in the cage. If any monkey tries to get the banana, we’ll hit all the monkeys with high-pressure water, we keep doing that until no monkey dares to touch the banana. Now, we replace one of the 5 monkeys with a new monkey. The monkey does not know the “rule” of the cage, and will try to get the banana. The result is that the 4 old monkeys would try to stop the new monkey, without humans having to turn on the water hose. And then, we replace another monkey with a new monkey, until all monkeys in the cage are “new”, but none of them dares to touch the banana.

We know that monkeys like to eat bananas, yet given our rule of “no touching bananas”, the monkeys will eventually police themselves not to touch the banana, even though that’s totally against their nature! In the beginning, the old monkeys will try to prevent new monkeys from taking the banana because they want to avoid being hit, but after a long time, when all the monkeys in the cage are new monkeys, they’ll still conform to the system of “no bananas”!. How pathetic the monkeys are, how powerful “path-dependence” is!

The above story is quite humorous, but the next story will illustrate more clearly the power of “path-dependence”:

We know that the standard width of the American railroad is 4 feet and 8.5 inches. This sounds like a very strange standard. Where did it come from? Well, we find out that this is the British standard, and early American railroads used the British’s standards. But, how did the British come up with this standard? Oh! Britain’s first railroads were designed by people who previously designed bus tracks in cities, and that was the width of the bus tracks. But where did the bus track’s width come from? We then find out that those who designed the first bus tracks used to design horse carriages, and they just borrowed the distance between 2 wheels of a horse carriage. But then, why did the horse carriage use such a number to be their width? Because if they used any other width, because the old “grooves” left on old British towns are of 4 feet and 8.5 inches. Then where did those grooves come from? The answer is that they were paved by the Roman Armies, and the Roman Armies’ Chariots’ width are 4 feet and 8.5 inches. But let me ask further, why are the Roman Armies’ Chariots’ width 4 feet and 8.5 inches? The answer is that that’s the average width of the back of two horses’s asses lined up sideways.

Wait, it’s not over. If you look at some of NASA’s rocket launches, you’ll see that there are 2 rocket propellers on the rockets’ fuel tanks. Now, the engineers wanted to make those propellers bigger, so they can provide more boost. But they could not do that, because those propellers are transported from Utah to the NASA launch center in trains, and the width of the train is the width of the railroad, which is 4 feet and 8.5 inches, so the rockets’ width are limited by 4 feet and 8.5 inches, otherwise they won’t fit inside the trains.

So, we can conclude, that, today’s most modern rocket propellant are actually determined by the width of two horses’s asses two thousand years ago. Can you now appreciate the power of “path-dependece”!?

In fact, “Path-dependence”, in a larger sense, is a nothing but the foundation of a culture. Each culture has its own difference “path” and is limited by that path. What is “Ameriacn style Democracy?”. Well that is nothing but a culture. What is a dictatorship, well that is nothing but a culture. When UK and Japan completed their political reforms, they still kept their Queens and Emperors. When the Japanese Empress had a child, the entire Japan was mesmorized, and every citizen wanted to get a glimpse of the Empress and her child. The respect and love they had for their empress was completely genuine and real. If you live in Japan, you’ll understand that it’s nothing but their culture, it’s their “path of dependence”. THeir nation has been honoring “emperors” for thousands of years, even if they had a modern political system, they cannot get rid of their old “path”, no matter how ridiculous that path may seem to outsiders, or even to Japanese themselves.

China is also limited by its path-dependence. There’s nothing anyone can do about it. Dictatorship and Feudalism has been in practice in China for two thousand years. THis is a very very “deep” case of “path-dependence”. If you look at China’s most popular novels and TV dramas, they are all about legends of Emperors and Loyalties. Even when the Communists tried for 50 years to water down the influence of ancient “Empires”, people simply feel very “at home” when expose to those “emperial” things, and feel very uncomfortable and “jarring” about “modern” republics, and about “democracy”. This is simply something deeply etched in people’s mindset, and is “woven into the fabric” of the nation’s psychological for thousands of years. Anyone who tries to change that “path” will only get smashed into 1000 pieces. Even Mao Zedong himself failed. He once predicted that “One day, Marxism will be smashed to bits, and I myself will also be smashed to bits. And the old China will be creeping back. That’s something no one can fight against.” And he was totally right, today, in 2005, Chinese citizens, in the deep of their hearts, still worship most “emperors” in old ages and still are very very comfortable in “restoring the ancient Chinese empires”.

So my advice to those “demoracy-lovers” and those “political reformers” who are so eager to turn China into a “modern” political state: don’t waste your time, the power of “path-dependence” will only smash you to bits.

January 22, 2006 @ 10:29 pm | Comment

Chester wrote:
“I do wonder why the drum and bell towers in Xian are larger than the ones in Peking.”

Xian was Tang dynasty’s catipal. Beijing is chosen after Tang because Machu and Mongolian joined in china. Government needs a joint point to control them.

January 22, 2006 @ 10:36 pm | Comment

Matt:

Your post is insightful, are you chinese? or american? if american, I do think Bush should hire you as consultant! Maybe you already are. ๐Ÿ˜‰

It’s true that tradition plays critical role in china, however not all elements of tradition are good. Some of them are really bad evil and due to thousands of years of history, it became a burden and hard to get rid of it. Corruption and GuanXi phenomenon are the cases.

introduce of communism is another “path-dependence” when western demacracy failed to work before 1949 by ROC government.

January 22, 2006 @ 10:55 pm | Comment

Glad to see you have a new friend, Xin.

Math writes:

So my advice to those “demoracy-lovers” and those “political reformers” who are so eager to turn China into a “modern” political state: don’t waste your time, the power of path-dependence” will only smash you to bits.

Based on what your wise and magnanimous leaders did to those other “demoracy-lovers” and “political reformers,” I can’t disagree with you. If you want to defend the smashers, it’s your privilege.

January 22, 2006 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

This is an experiement they may have never actually occurred, but is worth considering since human behavior can be very well similar:

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After awhile, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result. Pretty soon, when any monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, turn off the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Again, replace a third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs. Why not? Because that’s the way it’s always been around here.

I can only imagine what Math would say here that would be consistent with his gargantuan post above.

January 22, 2006 @ 11:18 pm | Comment

Brilliant, Ed.

Math, your turn.

January 22, 2006 @ 11:25 pm | Comment

This is for Keir:

BEWARE THE YELLOW PERIL….

Hordes of incomprehensible rat-eaters with a peculiar political philosophy and a dangerous penchant for narcotic drugs. No one can possibly know what dark and grotesque things pass through the minds of this hydraheaded racial anomaly which is, after all, more like a monstrous colony of flesh-crazed carpenter ants than a nation of rational men. Only a fool would deal with two-legged insects ..such as these.

Go back to the 19th century Keir…. Yellow Peril fear-monger

January 23, 2006 @ 12:34 am | Comment

You’re right, those Flying Chair comments were pretty vitriolic.

Though I was amused to see accusations of “hippocracy” being thrown around, which (thinking back to my A-level Greek and Latin days) would be “government by horses”, wouldn’t it?

Perhaps this has something to do with the time Nero made his racehorse a consul.

January 23, 2006 @ 12:59 am | Comment

Think lovely thoughts today?

Now how am I supposed to think lovely thoughts about the monkeys?

(Trying, meditating)….All I can think of is the Nairobi Trio (Ernie Kovacs)…

January 23, 2006 @ 3:05 am | Comment

This thread is throwing an entirely new light on Lou Reeds “Perfect Day”. “Feed animals in the zoo” ? Yeah, right. Shulan, maybe you should divert your Elvis investigation to Lou Reed, lots of secret grounds to be explored there.

And Ed, indeed, maginificent !

January 23, 2006 @ 4:28 am | Comment

Oh wait, maybe I’m getting it now.
Is Math asking us to touch his monkey?

January 23, 2006 @ 4:34 am | Comment

Or is he trying to tell us he has a monkey on his back?

January 23, 2006 @ 4:35 am | Comment

I think we should blame India, it has disgraced demoncracy.

We should also blame Singapore, it has show dictator can work.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:04 am | Comment

History shows dictaors can “work.” Stalin worked. Mao worked. But at what price to their people. Singapore at least is relatively corruption-free and has strict rule of law. Big difference.

January 23, 2006 @ 8:21 am | Comment

Math’s “horses ass/booster rocket” story is a well worn internet legend. It’s more or less true, with some caveats:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000218.html

But Math’s real point is that people can’t change. So the all the times that people broke from this “inertia” are, in his view, exception that prove the rule. So never mind the Japanese emperor is a mere figurehead, as opposed to what the role once was. Never mind that Japan is going against centuries of tradition when it overwhelmingly supports a n empress.

And never mind the revolutions that ended monarchy and absolutism across Europe, the American Revolution, the end of slavery, universal suffrage, womens equality (including under Mao, Math) and all the other times that societies had long standing traditions that were turned completely upside down.

Yeah, forget all that stuff. Because your path-dependence prevents any change. You realize Math, by your own theory, our path-dependence prevents us from agreeing with you. So just f**k off.

January 23, 2006 @ 9:10 am | Comment

I’ve discovered something called the “Crackpot Index”, in which you give someone points for how crackpot their physics theory is.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

I think we should adapt and apply this to Math.

January 23, 2006 @ 9:12 am | Comment

Hm, dave has inspired me:

A physics question: If Math and China_Hand both fell out of the top of the Tower of Pisa at the same time, which one would hit the ground first?

Answer: Well can anyone guess the answer?

January 23, 2006 @ 9:55 am | Comment

“A physics question: If Math and China_Hand both fell out of the top of the Tower of Pisa at the same time, which one would hit the ground first?

Answer: Well can anyone guess the answer?”

Don’t know! But the Earth is flat; always has been, always will be.

January 23, 2006 @ 10:03 am | Comment

I don’t think you guys truly grasped the spirit of Math’s post. What he was really saying is that whether a society changes depends on its culture and its people, and not on some external governmental body. Like many people here have pointed out, China has a 5000 year history of feudal traditions, and 50 years of “democratization” is not going to reverse the “inertia” of 5000 years. To reverse the inertia, you need at least 200 years. And in fact, that is what happened in most of today’s western Democracies. It took England, France, USA, etc 200+ years to work out the kinks in its respective “system”. And if you look at China’s progress today at democracy at age 50, it is siginificant better than USA’s level of democracy when it was 50 years old (1775+50 = 1852), is it not?

January 23, 2006 @ 10:16 am | Comment

Path dependency does explain why we ended up with VHS instead of Beta…

It’s true that China has 5000 however many years of feudal tradition. It’s also true that China’s last 200 years have been a marked break from the past, and that China’s “opening” and integration into the world community in the last 25 years or so is unprecedented in China’s history. So China is forced onto a new path by historical circumstances.

It’s also true, if we are going to look at physics theories as applied to human society, that chaos theory has some relevance. Why was a single actor like Mao able to have such an impact on China? Because at that point in China’s history, China was an unstable society. In an unstable society, the power of individual actors is magnified.

And now? I just read the lastest figures on “incidents of unrest” or whatever you want to call them. Apparently it’s up around 84,000 for 2005.

China has changed dramatically, and I expect, will continue to change dramatically, because it is not currently a stable system. That brings a lot of dangers, the unrest the leadership always fears, with increased social control and autocracy, but it also brings opportunities for a more democratic, more representative society.

I know which China I’m rooting for.

January 23, 2006 @ 10:31 am | Comment

Stuart,

The answer to the physics question is: “WHO CARES?”

January 23, 2006 @ 10:37 am | Comment

I thought we determined long ago that Math was MAJ — and so is China_Hand, btw.

(Now I’ll post another comment by “Jane” agreeing with myself, “Jim’s analysis is really brilliant. Really.”)

January 23, 2006 @ 11:19 am | Comment

to this “path dependancy” stupidity:

most of the world has a long history of non-democratic systems. So what? People, ideas, and political systems can change and that very quickly. The confrontation of a 5000 year history of so called feudalism and 50 years of democratic ideas is a bad disguised argument for cultural relativism. If the weight of the notorious 5000 years is so heavy and such a big obstacle why do Taiwan, South-Korea and Japan all have democratic systems (though I have to say that a country where despite a democratic system the same party ruled allmost for 50 years makes me suspicious; Japan as much as Bavaria).

January 23, 2006 @ 11:36 am | Comment

Personally I don’t think democracies are de facto unless there has been once cycle of power change. Otherwise it’s likely that the voting system, media, or laws are rigged by the ruling party, like Taiwan a few decades ago, Singapore today, where Venezuela’s gone and the direction of Russia. For this reason, it wouldn’t surprise me if China made itself a “democracy” and the CCP still rules for 50 years. But at least there would be some kind of progress because theoretically the blindfolds would be remove from the Chinese, as well as the great firewall.

I don’t believe that China can be a democracy overnight. It would take time. But it seems clear to me at this time that the CCP has no intention of transitioning to it.

The world is ruled by incentives. A ruling party that faces no challenge to its rule has no incentive to reduce corruption, except when corruption’s gotten so bad that they might lose their power.

As with most instances when Math and Co. encounters questions he cannot answer, he’ll just ignore it and then a few days later change the topic. I’m starting to see how this works now.

January 23, 2006 @ 12:08 pm | Comment

Math is one guy who – you can bet – has never brought a woman to orgasm.

January 23, 2006 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

>Math is one guy who – you can bet – has never brought a woman to orgasm.

He could chart and “analyze” how to do it algebraically, though. A rubs B and so forth. And in the end, the dictitorial penis makes democracy his bitch.

January 23, 2006 @ 12:30 pm | Comment

jim,

But erections aren’t deterministically predictable. Penile erections have a way of just, just happening spontaneously. Therefore I assume Math cut his own penis off a long time ago, just to make life more predictable.

January 23, 2006 @ 12:36 pm | Comment

(singing):

….”Two and two are four….Inchworm, Inchworm, measuring Math’s….”

….Inchworm? Where did the Inchworm go? (Looking all over the ground now….)

January 23, 2006 @ 12:51 pm | Comment

Uh… I seriously think phallic comparisons don’t have ANYTHING to do with our real topic of discussion here (political reform in China.)

Btw, has anybody heard news about what’s happening with Gao Zhan? Apparently she’s being deported or something.

January 23, 2006 @ 2:22 pm | Comment

ร„ร‡ยธรถIvanร•รปยธรถร’ยปร€รรƒยซร—ร“ร‰ยตยฑร†ยกยฃ

January 23, 2006 @ 2:50 pm | Comment

I don’t believe that China can be a democracy overnight. It would take time. But it seems clear to me at this time that the CCP has no intention of transitioning to it.

I think it is very clear that CCP is trying very hard to improve the living standards of the Chinese people, and improve the conditions of China for sustained growth in economics. And that is what matters to me and my family. Of course that is not what matters to you and your family, so you should not worry too much about it, and just think about something else.


The world is ruled by incentives. A ruling party that faces no challenge to its rule has no incentive to reduce corruption, except when corruption’s gotten so bad that they might lose their power.

I think you are too optimistic about China if you think the ruling party faces no challenge and has no incentive to reduce corruption. The biggest 3 things that are causing CCP leadership to lose sleep these days are 1) corruption 2) mass incidents by the peasants 3) energy supply

It is absolutely correct the CCP is focusing on these things, and I agree that these 3 are the top most priorities for China today. So I think everything should be OK.

January 23, 2006 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

hi guys, how’s going? still flying chair comments? lol

January 23, 2006 @ 4:43 pm | Comment

I think politics are much more real than what we are talking here.

Bush: “Hi Hu, I promise you more american investment next year, can you promise no attack to taiwan next year?”

Hu:”yeah, sure, as long as taiwan keep silent. BTW, what’s that human right crap?”

Bush:”Oh, just a little bit show to my people, no hurt! We won’t mention tibet, don’t worry”

Hu: “DEAL!”

January 23, 2006 @ 4:50 pm | Comment

Shulan wrote:
“If the weight of the notorious 5000 years is so heavy and such a big obstacle why do Taiwan, South-Korea and Japan all have democratic systems”

Do you call these country democracy? Ok, maybe you don’t know that some workers burned themselves as to against employers for their own right. How much do you know Japan? Are people as equal as in USA and australian? Japan is same as othe asian country, social ineqaulity and life is stressful. The only difference is, Japan got a better system than other asian countries. I think their system is a modified version designed for themselves, not american one.

as for taiwan? you call that democracy? Give me a break! !

January 23, 2006 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

This blog is so cool! My friend told me this blog and we are glad you set up this site for people to comment freely. I am also glad you and your buddies were defending us when those irrational Chinese were insulting Japan. Thanks man, we know the well-educated people are always standing by us confronting those ignorant Chinese.

Here in America, the Chinese migrated from China or Hongkong (except Taiwan) are also irrational, impolite, and disgusting โ€ฆโ€ฆ If you study the history, you will know why we and other countries in Asia donโ€™t like them. They lied about Nan-King event, trying to interfere with our own countryโ€™s affair (and other countries around South China Sea), they donโ€™t dare to face their own history (Maoโ€™s famine), dreaming about becoming an Empire in Asia again. Without democracy, China will certainly turn out to be the threat to the whole world if it gets the power and advanced military machine. And people shall never hope the Chinese can develop democracy on their own (The only democratic regime founded by Chinese is Taiwan, partly due to the Japaneseโ€™s influence and education before WWII). I guess there is no such a word as โ€œdemocracyโ€ in their vocabulary and they are probably bad in their genes.

Thanks again, for this site! Watch out, the world!

January 23, 2006 @ 5:21 pm | Comment

So how would you define democracy? This is a serious question. Most westerners are hypocrites when it comes to classifying which countries are democratic, e.g. Iran is not considered a democratic country by the West despite having competitive elections for all levels of the executive and legislative branches of government with its most recent 3 presidents coming from radically different political groups while Japan is considered a democracy despite over 50 years of almost continuous rule by a sinlge party and prime ministers that are largely determined by LDP oligarchs behind closed doors.

January 23, 2006 @ 5:40 pm | Comment

Above comment is in response to Xin, not to the troll.

January 23, 2006 @ 5:52 pm | Comment

“Here in America, the Chinese migrated from China or Hongkong (except Taiwan) are also irrational, impolite, and disgusting โ€ฆโ€ฆThey lied about Nan-King event, ”

now i realized some taiwaness (maybe a jap here) developed a strong hatre for China. I don’t know why webmaster tolerarte this kind of bullshit here.

well sunglory, as in your post you mentioned about democracy, could you tell me why do you think democracy is more important than being a human being? anyone who want to denny the NAN-JING MASSACRE will pay for it!

——————————————–
ALL ABOUT THE NAN-JING MASSACRE:
http://www.nj1937.org/english/default.asp

January 23, 2006 @ 6:38 pm | Comment

To Mr. Right,

Only your poor Communism-brainwashed head will believe those “Nan-King Massacre” crap. You poor guy! You showed an example again what the Communism China have done to you poor people, and what a low-file creature you Chinese are by showing how you are fooled by Communist so easily. There is NEVER a thing as “Nan-King Massacre” happened. Don’t lie, otherwise you people are going to be laughed by the whole world!

January 23, 2006 @ 7:46 pm | Comment

Usually I refrain from making offensive comments. But sunglory, if i see you in person, I’ll for sure kill you.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:50 pm | Comment

Sun Glory, cut the crap. I don’t give space to holocaust deniers, and I won’t give space to anyone who denies the Nanjing Massacre. You are warned. One more such comment and you’re out.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:53 pm | Comment

Oh, and China_Hand, you can show a little more maturity as well.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:53 pm | Comment

Thank you richard. That comment was only directed at sunglory.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:54 pm | Comment

So how would you define democracy? This is a serious question. Most
westerners are hypocrites when it comes to classifying which countries
are democratic, e.g. Iran …

Totally agree, Hui Mao. It’s a term we throw around recklessly and stupidly.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:56 pm | Comment

Goodbye sunglory. I’m deleting you last comment.

January 23, 2006 @ 7:56 pm | Comment

Lisa, thanks for your excellent comment above. A breath of fresh air in a thread gasping desperately for oxygen.

January 23, 2006 @ 8:04 pm | Comment

thank you, richard! this is all I can say…

January 23, 2006 @ 8:48 pm | Comment

Hi Richard,

You don’t have to delete SunGlory’s comment, american people should know there are so many like him. And I read a lot about those comment that I am not surprised at all.

His comment is deleted, only people coming to here will think only chinese are irrational. Don’t you think so?

January 23, 2006 @ 9:47 pm | Comment

I left his original comments intact, and only deleted the last one.

January 23, 2006 @ 10:40 pm | Comment

Thanks, Richard. You know, I’m still bitter about Beta… ๐Ÿ˜‰

January 23, 2006 @ 11:28 pm | Comment

Xin-

“His comment is deleted, only people coming to here will think only chinese are irrational. Don’t you think so?”

I think not. I would advise you to examine why you are even concerned about some people might think Chinese people as a collective are irrational (simply not true). Therefore, isn’t it more important that being Chinese, you don’t contribute irrationalities?

On the other hand, we never could know what nationality/ethnicity sunglory was. Sunglory could well have been a very irrational Chinese!

January 24, 2006 @ 12:16 am | Comment

And by the way, Xin,
Taiwan does have democracy. It’s a relatively young one, but it is.

January 24, 2006 @ 12:22 am | Comment

I am really shocked by sunglory’s comments. I have always thought the Japanese people were just as much victims of their country’s militaristic policies in WWII…but now I wonder if this malaise had gone deeper into the general populace, 55 years later.

As for China’s evil empire building, I really don’t believe they have as serious expansionist ambitions as the british or the japanese in the past. maybe only a few islands here and there…

January 24, 2006 @ 12:43 am | Comment

Thread gasping for oxygen. Yep!
Because: Commenting in response to nonsense, just multiplies and inflates the nonsense. It leads to something analagous to carbon-dioxide poisoning.

A corrollary to that: That’s exactly why it was perfectly appropriate for me to comment on Math’s phallic problems (which are not just metaphorical), above – rather than addressing any of his nonsense on his own terms…..

…suggested food for thought here.

January 24, 2006 @ 12:52 am | Comment

one more little thing: “sunglory” smells like a Chinese provacateur to me

January 24, 2006 @ 12:53 am | Comment

Yeah, like the morning “hong tai yang” gone terribly awry….

January 24, 2006 @ 1:16 am | Comment

“China has changed dramatically, and I expect, will continue to change dramatically, because it is not currently a stable system. That brings a lot of dangers, the unrest the leadership always fears, with increased social control and autocracy, but it also brings opportunities for a more democratic, more representative society.”

has it occurred to anyone that china’s current eco-political path is erringly similar to taiwan’s when it started high speed growth in the 60s and 70s? with a totalitarian state at the helm, they were able to bring most of the poor population into the middle-class zone by the 80s and democracy in the 90s.

January 24, 2006 @ 1:35 am | Comment

China wrote:
“As for China’s evil empire building, I really don’t believe they have as serious expansionist ambitions as the british or the japanese in the past. maybe only a few islands here and there…”

I frequently heard western said, china today claim this are theirs, that are theirs one day california will be chinese. Actually, china only claim theirs are theirs. What western people don’t understand is, based on chinese culture, china’s expansion in history was always limited. I mean, china will not explorer the world, expand, then seperate to couple of independent countries like usa, canada, australia, etc. simply because this will contradict china’s ONE spirit. china needs to remain as ONE, the expansion is too much, the answer to a question “how can these lands to be ONE” will not be answered properly, so as a result, expansion never happened. It’s wrong to see taiwan issue as a communism expansion. I know taiwanese try them best to make american believe it is a communism expansion because it will get american to protect them. It is also wrong for western to believe, china will give up for any reasons. As you know before 1949 china was somehow western stype social system, but did you notice that:
1, china’s map printed in taiwan include tibet?
2, government before 1949 claim mongolia as part of china?
how do you explain this?

January 24, 2006 @ 1:54 am | Comment

Well, yes and no, China. Taiwan is much smaller (another reason that the Singapore comparisons don’t work for me), and that makes the problems somewhat easier to deal with. But I do agree that the trajectory of China somewhat resembles Taiwan – China has moved from a totalitarian state (which it certainly was the first time I visited in 79), to an authoritarian one at present.

Look, I really, truly wanted to believe that Hu and Wen were moving China in a more democratic, or at least in a more open, direction. I held out for quite a while. But so far, what I see from Hu does not give me much cause for optimism. I think that China is poised to change dramatically, and in order for that change to be a positive one, an innovative leader would really be helpful. Not essential, because maybe some other force might emerge that can help take China in a more positive direction.

But so far, I don’t see that positive force being under Hu Jintao’s leadership. I would dearly like to be proven wrong.

January 24, 2006 @ 1:57 am | Comment

Some reasons why I can see “sunglory” is a Chinese troll who is pretending to be Japanese:

1. In his first comment pretended to be a sort of “kindred spirit” of this site, and then he posed as a Japanese Nationalist. HOWEVER, this site is an American one, and the Japanese Nationalists do NOT think of Americans as their allies. The Japanese nationalists are hostile to America, and a REAL one would never think of making “friends” with an American such as Richard

2. Any REAL Japanese Nationalist who reads Richard’s site, will hate Richard for how he keeps saying that what the Japanese did in the war was evil, and that the Nanjing massacre DID happen, etc etc. This guy “sunglory” was just too stupid and lazy to read through Richard’s site, and too stupid to realise that NO REAL Japanese nationalist would have any sympathy with Richard

3. “Sunglory’s” structure and style of English resembles a Chinese writer of English, far more than a Japanese

4. He posed as a vicious madman who is out of control. But – crazy as they are – still, most Japanese Nationalists prefer an appearance of control. They like to think of themselves as heirs of the Samurai – although they are not, sill they like to THINK of themselves that way. Thus, a real Japanese Nationalist would no act like a raging madman, like “sunglory” did.

5. Thus, sunglory was doing a ridiculous impersonation of what a Chinese person THINKS a Japanese nationalist would sound like.

6. Finally, the name “sunglory” sounds like a Chinglish interpretation of “Rising Sun”, ie, the Imperial Japanese flag which showed rays of light around the sun. ONE old English (originally Latin) word for “rays of light” is “glory”. (But hardly any Chinese people know that.) Thus, a Chinese who searched in his dictionary for an English translation of “sun with rays of light” – ie the name for the old Japanese flag – might patch together the rough translation “sunglory”.
BUT, ALL Japanese people know that the ENGLISH term for the Japanese flag is “Rising Sun”

“Sunglory” is a Chinese provacateur doing a ludicrous imitation of a Japanese. He was trying to stir up more shit here, and to make it look like Richard is in alliance with Japanese Nationalists. But real Japanese Nationalists would avoid Richard like the plague. And they don’t rage like maniacs in the way “sunglory” did – that’s just a Chinese fantasy of what they THINK Japanese are like.

Sunglory is Chinese, and a really vicious one. At least Math is an honest troll. Sunglory is lower than shit.

January 24, 2006 @ 1:59 am | Comment

Xin-
“It’s wrong to see taiwan issue as a communism expansion. I know taiwanese try them best to make american believe it is a communism expansion because it will get american to protect them.”

Is China still Communist?
Taiwan does not try their best to make Americans believe it’s Communist expansion. It does not do that, because China is no longer Communist, is it?

January 24, 2006 @ 2:04 am | Comment

Coda: Another example of a bad attempt to impersonate another race or nation in a ludicrous caricature: “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. It was written by vicious anti-semites, who tried to make it LOOK like it was written by Jews who were crazy with dreams of world conquest.

But in reality, it was just a vicious fantasy by anti-semites, about what they THINK Jews are like.

Same goes for “sunglory” – and it makes my skin crawl, to see that some other (more sane) Chinese readers here, took him seriously and believed his hoax.

This is how all holocausts REALLY start. And THIS is what we should “never forget.” And as the (truly reformed) Germans say today:
“Fight the beginnings”

January 24, 2006 @ 2:16 am | Comment

one thing i feel the china/taiwanese corollary shares is time. it took a good 40-50 years for taiwan to arrive at democracy through economic development. people are always more concerned about economic betterment than political participation. also there is just so much more leverage normal people have against the state when they are rich. however, one can still talk about social justice, which is not necessarily equal to democracy.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:19 am | Comment

5 Reasons why I said taiwan is playing a dangerous game:

1, taiwan tried to seperate. this is against china’s ONE spirit.
2, taiwan is trying to use american to achieve its goal. this is against china’s culture “home issue do not broadcast outside.”
3, taiwan is trying to bring this issue with sino-japan issue. dreaming japan will protect them. they are smoking in a gas station.
4, taiwan is trying to convince their people they are not chinese, they even said they evolved from different monkeys. it is against chinese rule “respect anscesters”. now even chinese in singapore are sick about them.
5, if taiwanese government is supporting dalai lama, i believe even dalai will think they are assholes. The funny thing is, they even said “manchurian is not chinese”. Are they taking drugs?

January 24, 2006 @ 2:23 am | Comment

Xin said
“As you know before 1949 china was somehow western stype social system, but did you notice that:
1, china’s map printed in taiwan include tibet?
2, government before 1949 claim mongolia as part of china?
how do you explain this?”

Well, no. The Nationalist China had some Westernization/Modernization aspirations, but it is no secrete those bacame mostly self defeated if not failure of a myriad of reasons and circumstances.
Claiming Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang was simply a continuation of Late Imperial China.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:27 am | Comment

Ivan wrote:
“Some reasons why I can see “sunglory” is a Chinese troll who is pretending to be Japanese:”

Dear Ivan, I start thinking you are the someone trying to flame the china-japan fire here. And it seems you are pretty successful. ๐Ÿ˜‰

January 24, 2006 @ 2:30 am | Comment

A free market system is not simply making something and selling it as a profit (or exploitation, as Marx’ called it). It is transparancy of companies and their transactions to create a competitive economic ecosystem. Without this you have a jungle ruled more by GuanXi than laws.

A democracy, likewise, is not just people voting. It’s respect for the representative system of government. Not agreeing with others but resepecting their right to say their opinion and make their case for consideration. Before Iran’s recent elections, for example, the Council of Guardians (uber powerful very religious clerics) ordered paramilitary forces to ban thousands of reformist candidates. And neither is Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Same goes for Hugo Chavez, too.

I agree China’s currently making some smart decisions in international policy. However, in dealing with corruption and mass protests by peasants for their grievances, what exactly is the CCP doing? They’re certainly not adding transparancy to the picture. They’re not allowing the people to to choose or complain about their leaders’s failures. The average joe in China will continue to miss out on the economic boom as a result. We’ll continue to see more demonstrations, people getting killed on occasions, while the economic problems continue to fuel the sex tourism in Shanghai and other cities.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:34 am | Comment

Xin,
1. Taiwan HAS BEEN separated.
2. China broadcasts its goals to the rest of the world too, agaist your own claim that’s against Chinese culture.
3. Chinese people smoke more than any others in the world, and neither Japan nor Taiwan is a gas station. Quit, China, please!
4. Taiwanese teachers teach what other teachers in the world that they evolved from the same humanoids in Africa hundred of thousands years ago. But every one has the grace not to suggest that Mainland Chinese are Africans.
5. Taiwanese government does not support Dalai Lama, but many Taiwanese people do. Dalai Lama would never think of them as assholes. Even of those who killed his fellow Tibet residents. You know it.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:39 am | Comment

when talking about xinjiang, i remember there is a xinjiang restaurant near my home in beijing. everytime i went back, xinjiang meal first, beijing duck will be always after.

I used to think all muslim meals are that yummy, after came to australia, i just realise that only our xinjiang people’s cooking is that yummy. I want kisssssss them.

u guys keep flying chairs. ๐Ÿ™‚

January 24, 2006 @ 2:44 am | Comment

“Actually, china only claim theirs are theirs.”
“China’s ONE, therefore Taiwan should fall under the benevolent rule of the CCP.”
– Xin

Xin, that’s irrefuable logic.

There is no doubt Taiwan is in a dangerous situation. The people there know that. But for them, it’s either continue in their new found Democracy, or become the CCP’s bitch. If China says “Taiwan should rejoin China after we become a democracy, and we’ll stop pointing missles at you until then” I’m sure the offer would be much better considred.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:52 am | Comment

chester:

The 5 points you wrote are really powerful. I am speechless. I think I made a mistake to make u guys think as chinese, sorry for that.

American will never share chinese thought, if they do, there wouldn’t have been a united States, but a loyal province of “empire where sun never set”, isn’t it? And australia would be just another province of this empire.

On the contrary, if chinese shared your thought or easily convinced by your thought, they wouldn’t be a china in the past thousands of years, isn’t it. And I wouldn’t have been born as chinese.

Path dependence.

January 24, 2006 @ 2:58 am | Comment

sorry, i don’t smoke. anyways, it takes two to tango with Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds taking the lead.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:00 am | Comment

Most westerners are hypocrites when it comes to classifying which countries are democratic, e.g. Iran is not considered a democratic country by the West despite having competitive elections for all levels of the executive and legislative branches of government with its most recent 3 presidents coming from radically different political groups …

Sorry but your perception of Irans political system is wrong. In Iran most of the power is in the hands of one man: the Supreame leader (also called leader of the revolution), who is not elected in free and fair elections. Currently his name is Seyyed Ali Chamenei, he is the successor of the better known Ajatollah Chomeini.
This is no real democracy because the truly elected parts of the executive and legelative don’t have real power.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:04 am | Comment

path dependence = monkeys without bananas (above)

we humas should aspire to be more. worshipping an emperor has led to a rich culture, but its hardly a way to run a modern state nor does it respect the individuals under its care. by the path dependecy agument, europe should still be of kings and queens and the US should still be its colonies.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:12 am | Comment

Ivan, I was waiting for someone to point this out about Sun Glory. I read the comments backwards, so I saw his Nanjing Massacre comment first and deleted it. Then, I read his original post, and knew it was a set-up with his very first sentence:

This blog is so cool! My friend told me this blog and we are glad you set up this site for people to comment freely. I am also glad you and your buddies were defending us when those irrational Chinese were insulting Japan. Thanks man, we know the well-educated people are always standing by us confronting those ignorant Chinese.

You don’t have to be a genius to see what the game is here. A few months ago I got a similar comment that told me how great my blog is, and the “praiser” managed to toss in every single key word the CCP’s filters are looking for. (This was the guy who promised he could arrange for the Falun Gong to pay me for my posts – anyone remember?) It was all a trap, an attempt to get my blog banned. I have to agree with Ivan’s assessment – an assessment I made myself earlier today. (That said, if any sincere Japanese blogger does come on here and deny the Nanjing Massacre ever happened, I’ll ban him as well.)

January 24, 2006 @ 3:12 am | Comment

Xin-

There is no need to apologize or feel bad; you didn’t do what you had claimed.

If Chinese in Singapore shared that thought you mentioned, then they wouldn’t want to be an independent state.
Path Independent.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:18 am | Comment

Ed,
Democracy is important to me too. But election in usa made me uncomfortable, looks like goverment have differenty direction which you never know someday will strip a country into two piece. I already have right to vote in australia, but i never did. For me, government should have its own fixed goal which shouldn’t be affected by people like me.

I am serious at this point. I do want china become a country where everyone lives happy or happier than in other country. But i don’t mean those election things. everytime when taiwan has election, we watch them as well. But we watch them like a comic. They are cursing each other and sometimes fighting and then, what is the result? that government f__k up everything exactly like what they did before 1949. Jesus christ.

BTW, CCP will not treat Taiwan as bitch, they are as equal as any other province and people.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:28 am | Comment

Chester,
One of my singapore friends told me malaysia government actually push them to independent, it is not their goal at the beginning. I didn’t verify this. Maybe later I will.

January 24, 2006 @ 3:42 am | Comment

Richard,

Happy to oblige, vis a vis pointing out how “sunglory” is actually a Chinese provacateur pretending to be Japanese.

The Communists just have no shame. They just keep blowing lies and more lies around. That’s why I said (some comments above) that whenever Communist trolls start chattering the same kind of lying nonsense over and over and over, it’s better not to fall into the trap of addressing their “arguments”. They HAVE NO arguments – and as Martin Luther said, the best way to fight the Devil is to laugh at him.

January 24, 2006 @ 4:07 am | Comment

And another coda: Following my above citation of Martin Luther:

Mel Brooks has said much the same thing. About his (wonderful!) play/movie “The Producers”, which presented Hitler as a ridiculous clown, Mel Brooks has said:

“I have made it my life’s work to make people LAUGH AT HITLER!” He’s right. The one thing truly evil can’t bear, is when you refuse to take them seriously. (Cf, the other unmentionalble troll of many identities). This is true also of the Communist Party. They lose all composure and become mentally disabled whenever they are not taken seriously.

(Which is precisely why anyone who makes fun of the Communists gets thrown into prison. Humor is the FIRST thing all fascist regimes try to destroy….)

January 24, 2006 @ 4:19 am | Comment

BTW, CCP will not treat Taiwan as bitch, they are as equal as any other
province and people.

Taipei has been very accommodating to that dangerous, evil Falun Gong cult. Will that be okay when the CCP takes over? Can they stay and do their exercises in public places as they do now?

January 24, 2006 @ 4:56 am | Comment

“Happy to oblige, vis a vis pointing out how “sunglory” is actually a Chinese provacateur pretending to be Japanese.”

They could have used sunglory in that ‘Geisha’ movie.

January 24, 2006 @ 4:59 am | Comment

Finally arrived in Oz, after awesome incompetence and disorganisation from Air China. The story begins at the point where I am told my bike would cost, not the 800 RMB I had to pay the last time , but 3,000 RMB. Flight leaving in an hour, and I haven’t 3,000 in my bank even if I was prepared to pay this extortion….
Leave it there for now; there’s a 7 inch moth trying to break through the window…

January 24, 2006 @ 5:36 am | Comment

Keir, a seven inch moth is attacking you? It’s one of our trolls pretending to be “Mothra”

January 24, 2006 @ 5:40 am | Comment

Richard,

Did you know that your front page has the “About” section, the China and duck graphic and advertisements on both the left AND the right of the main blogging space?

January 24, 2006 @ 5:40 am | Comment

Matt, don’t you think it’s worth looking at twice? (Also, notice they don’t both have the same copy. It’s my blog designer’s idea, to open the righ-hand sidebar to advertisers.)

January 24, 2006 @ 5:56 am | Comment

“not the 800 RMB I had to pay the last time , but 3,000 RMB. Flight leaving in an hour, and I haven’t 3,000 in my bank even if I was prepared to pay this extortion….”

I’m keen to know more. Sounds like the time I went to pick up a box from the airport….

January 24, 2006 @ 6:06 am | Comment

Can’t bribes be negotiated in China? (I’ve never been in such a situation in China.) A Russian officer wouldn’t demand the whole 3000 RMB (or rubles or whatever.)
If you tell a convincing story about how you’re broke, a Russian cop will usually sympathise and let you go after a token 50 rubles or so.

I’ve had them ask me for 50 US dollars and then they accept 50 rubles when I reply in Russian that I just don’t have that much cash…

January 24, 2006 @ 6:14 am | Comment

Richard
I once talked to a falungong people in beijing, she seriously looked at me in my eyes and said, “Master is GOD. Juses is his servant……”

One of my classmates’ grandmother, because of joining falungong, and refuse to take medcine, finally died from heard attack. All chinese knew that while in china, falungong said take medcine while sick only to kill pain but didn’t do better for your karma or something like that.

I was wondering why such crap can convince americans. Once i was in yahoo chatroom, i saw an american is promoting that. So I talked to him. He is a native american, indian. And he said, “no, master never told us you can’t take medcine.”

There it is! He just slightly changed his doctrine to cater to western people’s taste. Exactly like what dalai lama do.

January 24, 2006 @ 6:16 am | Comment

Keir,

why did you take china air line? Was there quatus get you to oz?

January 24, 2006 @ 6:21 am | Comment

Xin’s last comment does warrant a response, to point out its flawed logic:

Fallacy of changing the subject.
The fact (which I believe is true) that the FLG is a bizarre cult, does not justify arresting them for otherwise harmless behaviours.
When the FLG do exercises in public, nobody gets hurt. In any civilised country, criminal laws are directed toward specific harmful actions, not toward general beliefs.

I think the Mormons are out of their minds, but as long as they don’t hurt anyone (and most of them are harmless), then America just leaves them alone. Same with the FLG.
They will not be arrested unless their actions are actually harmful to others – and just doing exercises in public does not harm anyone else.
Except for the CCP who simply don’t like it.

January 24, 2006 @ 6:24 am | Comment

Look, I have big issues with the Wheelers, (and no deep love for the Dalai Lama). But no one’s died at the hands of the FLG. They are annoying and creepy. They don’t deserve to be rounded up, imprisoned, tortured and killed. It proves just how insecure the CCP is. Any group that people feel allegiance to other than the CCP is a dire threat. That is very telling. If they were secure in their power nad truly believed they had the people’s support, they would laugh at the FLG. Not torture them.

January 24, 2006 @ 6:31 am | Comment

And so, I think Richard has touched upon a paradox, of how the CCP’s attempts to control ALL organised religion AND all media, actually backfire and result in even more unreasonable ideas among the people.

Let me explain:

The Roman Catholic Church, for example, is outlawed in China. (And so are all Protestant churches, other than those controlled by the Communists.) But if China wants to discourage people from joining insane cults, then it’s foolish to ban the Catholic Church. Because: Roman Catholics (even former ones, or lukewarm ones) tend to be VERY resistant to cults….

…there is a good reason for this. With all its fault, the Catholic Church DOES have an old tradition of very sharp, logical thinking about religion.
Critical thinking about religion runs deep in the Catholic Church, for old historical reasons. AND, it’s the largest Christian church in the world, with a vast, deep history and a lot of prestige – so, to Catholics (even former ones) all other Christian churches (and all cults) look very silly in comparison.

And finally, Catholics are notoriously orderly and law-abiding. (Maybe too much so, cf Italy and Germany in fascist times.)

Thus, by outlawing the SENSIBLE churches like the Catholic Church and major Protestant ones, the CCP just leaves the people even more susceptible to superstitions like the FLG.

Something similar with the media. China is the rumour capital of the world – and I wonder whether, if China had a free press where truth could be sorted out from lies, there might be fewer rumours circulating around China…..

January 24, 2006 @ 6:43 am | Comment

“One of my classmates’ grandmother, because of joining falungong, and refuse to take medcine, finally died from heard attack.”

Would she still be with us if she had been allowed to drink tea made with powdered bat’s wings mixed with dried snake’s testicle?

January 24, 2006 @ 6:55 am | Comment

Stuart,

Yes, but only if she stopped drinking so many cold liquids.

January 24, 2006 @ 7:00 am | Comment

AND on THAT note, about “medicine”: My mother’s mother was a firm believer in homeopathic medicine. In her time, in the 1930s, everyone thought she was crazy. My mother hardly ever saw a conventional doctor. But now she’s almost 80 and healthy as a horse. Should the police have arrested my grandmother for her weird medicinal beliefs? No – not as long as my Mother remained healthy anyway.

And I don’t belong to any cult, but I try to avoid all doctors and all drugs (well except for vodka etc). Should I be arrested for avoiding doctors?

January 24, 2006 @ 7:05 am | Comment

Then on the OTHER hand, my grandfather DID use regular medicine, and he died of a heart attack at age 66. But I think his four packs of unfiltered cigarettes every day had something to do with it.

Do the FLG smoke as much as other Chinese do?

January 24, 2006 @ 7:14 am | Comment

FLG
I used to think that the FLG was just a crazy cult, because I saw their demonstrations in the US.

However, I did some cursory investigation. They operate freely outside China. And I have never heard of any self-multilation or civil disturbances. CCP made a mistake on this one – if they realized they couldn’t crush the movement in 3 months they probably would have limited their persecution. But they can’t recant now – they’ll look too stupid. But this is their own fault.

Nations do have the right to persecute people hurt themselves, however, beyond criminal behavior. The recent man in Britain that met someone on the internet so they could eat each other’s body parts was an example. This is far cry from the FLG, however. Refusing to take medication is totally irrelevant. Tons of people in China need medication and don’t believe in western medicine. Let’s jail them all too, eh?

Democracy
CCP Media coverage of Taiwan’s political process would always present them as a joke. Anything to get the Chinese to have less confidence in democracy. Taiwan is a young democracy so early elections will have problems – however social instability is not one of their problems.

Heck, I was watching CCTV9 the other day, and the white meterologist said “ShenZhen weather will be relatively hot while normal weather is expected in Taiwan, in China.” Even the weather reports reinforce the reindocterination process, just in case foreigners don’t know. Why didn’t he say “ShenZhen in China”?

Xin, you have a point that people in China are uncomfortable with democracy given the uncertaintly it brings. But how does this forbid local elections that allow people to fire corrupt officials?

Adjusting for the war with Japan, which exhaused national resources, China did not do worse under the Nationalists comapred to the CCP. Anyone who isn’t raised under the CCP’s restricted education would say the opposite is true.

January 24, 2006 @ 7:52 am | Comment

Ed,

Following up on your point about how well off China was under the KMT:

1. Most students in the PRC are never taught that the KMT were the ones who ended the old custom of binding women’s feet. Their history books don’t deny this, but they don’t mention it either.

2. Most of the Chinese people who fought against Japan, were in the KMT army. The Communists fought very few battles against the Japanese – although the CCP’s official history books lie about this.

3. The Communist took over China as a direct result of their sitting back and letting the KMT bleed to death during the Japanese invasion. The majority of Chinese people did NOT “support” the Communists in the 1940s. The Communists just sat back and allowed the KMT to do most of the fighting against Japan, and then when China’s government was weak after the war, THEN the Communists took the opportunity to conquer a weak, prostrate China.

4. A very similar thing happened in Russia in 1917. Lenin and his band of criminals took over the Russian government only AFTER Russia had been weakened by a long war. In 1917, the masses of Russian people did NOT all stand up and say, “We support the Communist Party!” What happened was that a long war weakened the Russian government, and then Lenin and his Communists LITERALLY just walked in and took it.

5. In all of world history, there has NEVER been a popular Communist takeover of ANY country, except for Cuba. (I want to be clear to make one exception for Cuba.) Otherwise, “The People” have NEVER “risen up” in a Communist Revolution in ANY country, EXCEPT for countries which had already been weakened by long wars, OR countries which were conquered by Communists of other countries in wartime.

Russia, 1917: Government weakened by a long war, and then Lenin and his Communists took over the government with almost no fighting. (Kerensky’s government had already fled from the Winter Palace before the Communists entered it.)

Oh and then, HMM, after 1917, NO other countries became Communist, UNTIL 1945, when the occupying Russian armies forced the Eastern European countries to become Communist. (And now you see how that worked out, after 1989….NO European country ever wanted to be Communist in 1945, and now NONE do, not even Russia….)

Then China, 1949: After America liberated Asia from the Japanese invaders (with considerable help from the KMT in China), then in AUGUST 1945, Communist Russia FINALLY declared war on Japan, for the last few weeks of the war.

(I love Russia, but I admit, Russia was shamefully late to enter the war against Japan. Russia got into the war against Japan just two weeks before it ended, after America had effectively won the war against Japan.)

Then China’s Communists launched a civil war against the KMT, against the very people who fought to save China from Japan. The KMT were too weak to resist the Communists, because the KMT were worn out from fighting against Japan while the Communists sat back and watched the KMT fight against Japan.

And then, what other countries became Communist? North Korea – but only because Russia occupied North Korea when Japan surrendered. Cuba – but only because the USA had very unfair policies toward Cuba, and so I do have some sympathy for Castro and Cuba’s unique brand of “Communism”. But Castro’s Cuba is not really “Communist”, it’s really Cuban Nationalist.

And who else? VietNam? The people of VietNam never cared about “Communism.” They just wanted national independence, and the USA was too stupid not to understand this.

And Cambodia? Communist only for a while, and only because of crazy wars, and it’s no longer Communist.

In sum, all history proves, that NO country has EVER had any popular revolution for “Communism.” ALL “Commmunist” countries became “Communist” because of weaknesses from war, and infiltration by opportunist “Communists” whose pretensions of representing “the will of the People” is ALWAYS a LIE.

QED. Unless you believe all the lies in the CCP history textbooks, which lie even more than those of Japan.

January 24, 2006 @ 8:21 am | Comment

It seems you and I agree on the history, as well as times when communism is likely to happen.

Maybe my wording was a bit abstruse: China likely did worse under the communists than under the Nationalists.

Xin, no democracy likes to be ruled by some external dictatorship. This is what I mean by being China’s bitch. HK today is an example.

And to my fellow communists that like to whine “Taiwan is trying to using foreign powers in its interest”, keep in mind Ivan’s comments above, and:

Communism itself isn’t a chinese idea.

And neither are a vast majority of China’s weapon systems.

Paying for countries to switch diplomatic relations to CCP is hardly a domestic activity.

So let’s just keep in mind it’s an international world, and international alliances are common – and stop whining about it.

January 24, 2006 @ 8:59 am | Comment

I thought it was the missionaries in China whom helped to ban foot-binding and not actually the KMT. But clarity on this issue would be appreciated.

January 24, 2006 @ 8:59 am | Comment

The KMT government had bigger army, controlled larger territory, better equipped, received financial and military support from the US, had the Air Force and the Navy, which the CCP had none. In 1946, the KMT claimed to be able to eliminate the CCP in 6 months. Then, puff, the CCP won the war 3 years later without popular support? Is this in a history book to be published? Iโ€™d like to get one.

January 24, 2006 @ 9:26 am | Comment

Shameless stolen from Simon’s World:
http://tinyurl.com/8xu23

“Rich guy seeks wife, must be virgin”
http://tinyurl.com/a9mek

“Speaking to a friend, a newly-divorced RMB billionaire came upon a solution: place an ad, to the effect of wanting a charming, hot virgin. His lawyer received 600 applications, shortlisted 100, then got 20 for his client friend to interview. One was successfully selected. Oh, and the lawyer took one of the rejects for himself. The lawyer now does a roaring business in matchmaking billionaires with virgins.

January 24, 2006 @ 9:59 am | Comment

Xin-
My Chinese Sigaporean friends said they needed Malayshia and other surrounding country’s support.

January 24, 2006 @ 11:13 am | Comment

JE-sus H f—ing christ! (As various schools of US warriors say),

I see a lot of CCP trolls have been swarming into this site, like mosquitos.

F—ing mosquitos. A nuisance, but they all have very short lives.

January 24, 2006 @ 11:58 am | Comment

Well, even China’s now admitted communism is a stupid idea.

The problem today is they’re more totalitarianists /authoritairanists.

January 24, 2006 @ 12:44 pm | Comment

“I see a lot of CCP trolls have been swarming onto this site”

Ad Hominem attacks do nothing to promote informative, educational, persuasive discussion, Ivan.

These discussion topics (Taiwan, FLG, HK) are getting rather stale. Perhaps we should talk about something else, like Gao Zhan?

January 24, 2006 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

t_co,

Your last comment was another logical fallacy. The CCP trolls here are not trolls because of being CCP. They are trolls because they repeat CCP propaganda without any evidence or logic.

I don’t attack them for their identity. I attack them for their stupidity. But it is a consistent pattern for the CCP trolls to speak nonsense, thus, it is fair to criticise them as a group. Because, “as we all know”, the CCP all think in the same ways, in the “CORRECT” path of Marxist-Leninist-Mao-thought.

Hey man, you Communists are the ones who say you all think as a group. And all of your group – to this day – just keep repeating the same lies over and over again.

QED, it is NOT an “ad hominem” attack to criticise all of the CCP in the same way. Your own Party says that it has “unified” thoughts, therefore, whenever ONE CCP troll speaks nonsense, then ALL of the CCP are guilty of nonsense.

It’s YOUR fascist Party, not mine.

January 24, 2006 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

Haven’t followed all the comments, but a note about the footbinding: the old ROC/KMT regime formally banned it (not really an obscure fact in the PRC, I don’t think), but it was the Christian missionaries who, along with certain Chinese reformers, catalysed the popular movement that led to its abolition.

Also, is it just me, or have the threads here become seriously chaotic as of late? Rants on Tibet, China-Japan love-ins, etc etc on posts that weren’t anywhere close to those topics. Add in a few halfway house loonies and stir. (Btw, I never get Math. Something about monkeys and bananas …bananas dipped in LSD, maybe… His “path dependence” thingy just sounds like another argument for cultural relativism, the inevitability of Apartness. Yawn.)

Sunglory is likely a fake persona, and a clumsy one at that. Still, there are Japanese who do find the Nanking massacre overrated, who are casually prejudiced against the Chinese and other Asians in appalling ways (as I’ve recently found out, quite by accident) and not all of them are ultranationalists, some are really very nice people. Cultural amnesia, racism, victim complex, whatevs. I’m over it all. No country or people can be free from the neuroses of nationhood, I guess. Crazies on all sides.

January 24, 2006 @ 1:17 pm | Comment

AND, t-co and you other Communist trolls here – I notice a pattern, how you try – weakly, impotently – to suggest that I am “not serious” because I do not follow where you want these discussions to go.

Well there you go. This is the difference between the old Western way of logic, versus the Chinese Communist way of ASSUMING that whatever you say must be taken seriously.

You can go and look at all of my coments on this site, and through all of my occasional follies, you will find me speaking like a true scholar and a man of logic. If you look for it.

Your problem – you Communists – is that in your country, nobody is ever allowed to contradict you. In China, nobody is ever allowed to speak against the Communists, or to point out how illogical and fraudulent the Communists are. So, when someone like me (or others of our friends here) refuse to engage with you lying Communists in your own ways, then you call us “frivolous” and you call us “unserious” and you want us to “get back to the REAL discussion.”

But the problem is, that the REAL discussion, cannot be defined by the Communist Party. The “Real, Serious” discussion will always go in ways which you Communists do not expect, in ways you do not like.

Get used to it. Your time is over.
The Communists represent the Dark Ages of 5,000 years ago, when all “discussions” were controlled by the Emperor, the SON of HEAVEN!

It’s over now, you Communists, you barbarians who want to keep China in the Dark Ages. The rest of the world has grown beyond your way of controlling all discussions.

Most of the world is free now. Most Humans, no longer have any Emperors now. Most Humans do not believe in your superstitious Chinese Communist nonsense about how a small group of people can lead everyone else.

Get used to it, Communists. Most of the World is free from your 5,000 year old superstitions now. And we will all carry on discussing things in any way we please, and we don’t give a shit what the Communist Party says, the Sons of God, the Communists who pretend to speak for God. Fuck you. All of the people of the World are learning to think for themselves, and to speak for themselves…

…while the Communist Party, and all the Dark Age ideas which it represents from 5,000 years ago, is dying now…..

January 24, 2006 @ 1:19 pm | Comment

Ivan, how do I know you are not sunglory? you are both pretty mad:)

January 24, 2006 @ 3:39 pm | Comment

“Speaking to a friend, a newly-divorced RMB billionaire came upon a solution: place an ad, to the effect of wanting a charming, hot virgin. His lawyer received 600 applications, shortlisted 100, then got 20 for his client friend to interview. One was successfully selected. Oh, and the lawyer took one of the rejects for himself. The lawyer now does a roaring business in matchmaking billionaires with virgins.

A nice example. So you think CCP should be blamed on this or those filthy old tradition? And you think other asian democratic country doesn’t have things? As far as i know, while china was purely communism, this things never happened. While china was communism, labours’ right were fully protected. Maybe china is not communism enough.

January 24, 2006 @ 4:22 pm | Comment

Richard,

Jesus H F—ing Christ. I have NEVER given you an ultimatum before, but if you don’t ban that filthy sack of shit “CLC” for what he has just said to me, I will boycott your site.

That creep “CLC” compared me to someone who said the Nanjing Massacre never happened. And that is intolerable.

There is some shit I just will not tolerate, and “CLC” has done it.

Ban his ass, or else I will disappear from here permanently. And Richard, you know I’m serious and you know I have good reasons to be.

He crossed a line which I will NOT tolerate ANYONE crossing.

January 24, 2006 @ 4:57 pm | Comment

Ivan is a lovely guy, so like a child. I like him.

January 24, 2006 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

Chester wrote:
Xin-
My Chinese Sigaporean friends said they needed Malayshia and other surrounding country’s support.

Chester,
You didn’t say singapore was seperated from malaysia for what reason. Support, sure. China needs usa support too.

January 24, 2006 @ 5:06 pm | Comment

Ivan, looking at his comment, which he follows with a smiley, I would have to say that he’s joking – ar at least I’m hoping he is. I’ll give him a warning, but banning him without a warning isn’t really fair. CLC, consider yourself warned.

Meanwhile, I’m sorry that my current workload doesn’t allow me more time to sit here all night and monitor the comments. I have to agree with recent commenters who complained that the threads seem a bit out of control, rambling and hysterical. I’m closing this thread in a minute, and I’m going to make a serious request for some restraint and courtesy on all sides. Okay?

January 24, 2006 @ 5:22 pm | Comment

Closed. Cerrado. Geschlossen. Guan men. Etc.

January 24, 2006 @ 5:34 pm | Comment

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.