Wisdom Thread


The next two weeks are going to be exceptionally bad, so expect more threads, less writing. Will try to compensate on the weekends.

The Discussion: 68 Comments

Oh boo-hoo. A Communist Party member killed himself. Well, GOOD!

He asked for it. If you swim in shit – like you do when you join the merciless Communist Party which rejects any rule of law or any transcendent morality – then you assume the risk of coming to a bad end, without any mercy.

I have no sympathy for that son of a bitch. ALL Communists assume the risk of coming to a bad end, without any mercy or compassion – because when you join the Communist Party, you MUST FORMALLY reject any ideas of transcendent mercy or compassion.

The Communist Party CATEGORICALLY DENIES any transcendent Spirit of Man, or any kind of transcendent compassion.
AND the Communist Party rejects the Rule of Law. They say – oh they say OPENLY – that the Communist Party is the highest law. The COMMUNIST PARTY says that! So, I have NO sympathy for any Communist who kills himself, whatever the reason. He asked for it when he joined the Party which has NO transcendent morals and no rule of law.

So I say this dead Communist bastard does not deserve any compassion. He sold his soul when he joined the Communist Party.
To Hell with him, and let his fate be a warning to all OTHER Communists who sell their souls to the Party……

…the Communist Party officially rejects any idea of a Human Spirit, a Human Spirit which has more value than any Party. No, the Party says that THE COMMUNIST PARTY IS GOD!
And this bastard was a Party member, he sold himself to all of the lies of the Communist Party. For all of his adult life, he enjoyed power BECAUSE he obeyed the Communist Party. And the Communist Party REJECTS any idea of individual Human Dignity.

So this guy got what he deserved. He was a Communist. He asked for it. He died in a perfect Communist way, as a dead body to be buried and forgotten just like a dog or a rat. Official Communist ideology says that Humans are just animals, just like dogs and rats. So, to hell with him and with all Communists who deny that the Human Soul was made in the image of God.

This guy denied ANY kind of God. So, he got what he asked for: Death like a dog or a rat, because that is what Communists say Humans are like, the Communists say that we Humans are no better than dogs or rats. The Communists say that all Humans are just animals without any souls, and so, ALL Communists deserve to die in shame and to be forgotten, like this bastard did. Just like a rat.

Communists like him deserve to die like rats, because the COMMUNISTS SAY that Humans are no better than rats. And Communists say there is no God, so, why should anyone care when a Communist dies?
He is dead, and according to the Communists, his life had no meaning, because the Communists say there is no God. There is only “economic development” and the GDP, so the Communists say.

To hell with all Communists who deny the Spirit of Man, and of God.

And to hell with this guy, who killed himself. He was a Communist, and so, his whole life was dedicated to denying any eternal meaning of Life.

So now he is dead, and as a Communist, he believed that death is the end of everything. So, let’s just forget him, as if he never existed. THAT IS the COMMUNIST way!

All Communists deserve to be forgotten like dead rats when they die, BECAUSE the Communist Party denies that the Spirit of Man is any different from any other kind of animal, and the Communist Party says that there is no God, and no meaning for Human Life, except for the GDP……..

And that is the way of Hell. That is the way of Evil, of Satan. And that is what he asked for when he joined the Communist Party: to deny every value except for the power of the Communist Party, and the GDP.

When you join the Communist Party – which denies any kind of God – then you join Satan. Literally.

When you join the Communist Party, you reject all rights to be remembered with love after you die – because the Communist Party rejects all ideas of God or of any life after death, or of ANY meaning of life other than “economic development” and the “GDP”. The Communist Party OFFICIALLY teaches, that all Humans are just material things which die, without any transcendent meaning of our lives – because the Communists say there is no God, there is only “economic development”

…but in the long run, that leads to a dead end. Because, scientifically, we know that this MATERIAL Earth will end in a few billion years, if not sooner….and so, in the long run, there is NOTHING FOR THE COMMUNISTS TO LOOK FORWARD TO, except for death and oblivion without any transcendent meaning at all….

When you join the Communist Party, you join Satan and the ranks of Evil, and all anti-Human forces. Literally.
Literally, because this is what Communist doctrine says:

“There is NO God and NO transcendent Human Spirit, there is only economic development. Humans are merely material things whose nature is ENTIRELY determined by economics.”

Those words are, precisely, Satanic and radically Evil and opposed to the Free Spirit of Man, made in the image of God, with Free Will. The Communist Party says, that all Humans are merely animals who live and work for a while, and then die, and then there is no further meaning for any Human life. The Communists say, all Humans are just very intelligent monkeys who produce, and maybe raise the GDP, but nothing more. We create a GDP and then we die and then there is nothing else, no other meaning of Human Life. That is OFFICIALLY what the Communist Party says. The Communist Party says, Human Life has NO OTHER MEANING, except for “economic development.” (And you CCP trolls here, don’t you DARE try to contradict me with sophistic lies. YOUR PARTY says this, YOUR COMMUNIST PARTY denies the existence of any God, or of any reason for Human life other than “economic development” and “production” – which, in the long run, is no meaning at all, because our world WILL END at some time.)

QED, the Communist Party is Satanic, it is radically Evil, because it is based on radical lies which deny the essence of the Human Spirit – and of God, because all lies are opposed to God. And the ESSENCE of Communist Party Doctrine, leads to oblivion and no value at all, in the long run, because this material world WILL END in the long run…..

At any rate, since this guy who killed himself was a Communist, there is NO reason to feel sorry for him, because the Communist Party rejects the essential idea of compassion. He rejected any kind of eternal compassion when he became a Communist, so, now he deserves no compassion. And even an atheist should see the logic in that.

If you want to feel sorry for him, at least base your compassion on a solid premise, like a belief in some kind of transcendent God and some kind of eternal Human Spirit. But if you don’t believe in ANY kind of god, or any kind of eternal Human Spirit, then you have no reason to feel sorry for this man, who died just like dogs and rats do, without any ultimate purpose for his life.

Just asking you to be consistent. IF you want to feel sorry for this man, then you should have a good premise for your compassion, and your premise MUST be some kind of belief in SOME kind of transcendent value which will never die.

(Thus says Ivan the latent Jesuit, on a theological roll today…… ๐Ÿ™‚

December 8, 2005 @ 8:13 am | Comment

Damn, I wrote that in reply to a comment about a CCP official who killed himself over the recent chemical spill, but now the comment to which I had replied is gone. Damn. Now my comment is out of context.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:18 am | Comment

Sorry Ivan, my doing. I’ll re-post a summary. I posted the SCMP article but then saw that dylan and others had posted it on the last open thread – so I deleted it.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:23 am | Comment

From the SCMP:

Vice-mayor of spill city kills himself

A vice-mayor of Jilin city, Wang Wei, who was in charge of rescue efforts after a petrochemical plant explosion last month led to massive contamination of the Songhua River, is believed to have committed suicide, local police said yesterday.

Wang was in charge of environmental protection and production safety.

His death came before a State Council investigation team, led by Li Yizhong, director of the State Administration of Work Safety, arrived in Jilin city yesterday.

The team has been tasked with examining the cause of the factory explosion on November 13 and the resulting toxic chemical spill into the Songhua, which caused one of the country’s worst incidents of river pollution.

Before the Jilin trip, Mr Li vowed to severely punish officials found to be responsible for the blast and the spill of toxic chemicals, Xinhua reported.

“Those who break the law will be handed over to the judicial departments. People who are found to have provided false information to investigators will also be punished harshly.”

Wang, 43, who became Jilin city’s vice-mayor earlier this year, assumed a high-profile role in dealing with the aftermath of the blast at the Jilin petrochemical plant, owned by PetroChina, which killed eight people and injured 60 others. He was quoted the day after the blast as saying there would not be any widespread contamination.

Hu Xingdou , a political scientist from the Beijing Institute of Technology, said Wang’s apparent suicide would lead the public to believe that he killed himself out of fear of facing criminal charges.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:26 am | Comment

wow, what an incredibly offensive post, Ivan

December 8, 2005 @ 9:05 am | Comment

THANKS, Martyn!

And Jeff, I hope you were joking when you said my post was “incredibly offensive.” Because what is REALLY offensive is the anti-Human doctrines of the Communist Party which I lacerated in my comment.

Is the Communist Party offended by my comment? GOOD! They asked for it. All I did, was to clarify what the Communist Party says, and how viciously nihilistic and anti-Humanist the Communist Party is.

You can’t be offended by a restatement of your own doctrines.
All I said here, was what the Communist Party says. I just pointed out how vicious and inhuman the Communist Party is, according to its own doctrines.

December 8, 2005 @ 10:52 am | Comment

PS, it really is that simple. The Chinese Communist Party OFFICIALLY denies any kind of God, AND any belief in an eternal Spirit of Man. That is what THEY say, that is what the PARTY says.

If they want to be perceived differently, then there is a simple solution. The Communist Party can publicly reject the atheistic teachings of Marx, AND reject the superstitious teachings of LENIN which say that the Party represents absolute truth.

Very simple. If the Communist Party wants to be perceived as people who respect a transcendent Spirit of Man, then they can do it easily, by announcing their rejection of Marx and of Lenin.

But until that day comes, they are evil, and they are damned, and they are Satanic, because they officially deny any transcendent Human Spirit.

December 8, 2005 @ 10:57 am | Comment

AND, the Communist Party is Satanic, and evil, and damned, BECAUSE they have pretended to represent the perfect Truth, like God.

That is the way of superstition and barbarianism, for ANY Human to pretend to know the absolute truth, and to destroy anyone who disagrees. And that is the Communist way, to destroy anyone who disagrees with the Communist Party. That is the Communist way, and that is the way of superstitious barbarians.

December 8, 2005 @ 11:05 am | Comment

Ivan, you know I luv ya, but this is over the top.

Plenty of people of good will joined the Communist Party because they thought it was a means to a good end, to create a more humane society here on earth. Obviously such folks are few and far between these days. And it’s pretty clear to me that means create ends, so if one does a lot of evil thinking that it’s going to result in good…

Well, one would be wrong about that.

But categorically damning people doesn’t fly with me either.

I’m sure, along with power-hungry, greedy opportunists, there are plenty of people in the CCP today because they believe it is their best path for making positive change, given the system in which they operate. They may be completely deluded about that, but I’m not going to assume that every CCP member has evil intentions. That’s just too easy.

December 8, 2005 @ 3:07 pm | Comment

Let me today introduct to some of you a song that was very very popular during China’s Cultural Revolution. Of course, I know that some of you will yell “Hong Xing! We don’t want to hear it! Get out you stupid!” Well, I don’t mind you yellling at me at all, but please keep your voice down at least. Why not listen to it, it takes 2 minutes, and the download is very very fast.

Of course, this song is not even encourgaed to be sung in China today, because it is associated with the Cultural Revolution. But you cannot deny that the song itself, its melody, its music, its presentation, is top-notch. And is a popular piece in many cultural shows by the Chinese students and scholars association in American universities. I believe last year, this is the final piece sung by a amateur chorus during the Chinese New Years Show by the Mainland Chinese students association at the University of Texas at Dallas. And at the climax of that song, many people in the audience joined in (because this is song is too familiar to many Chinese) and older people had tears in their eyes.

Here I present you, “Long Live Chairman Mao” (if one link does not work, try the other one):



Translation of Lyrics:

Dear Chairman Mao Oh Dear Chairman Mao. You are the red Sun in our hearts, Oh you are the red Sun in our hearts. How we have so many intimate things to say to you, how we have so many passionate songs to sing to you. Oh! Thousands of red hearts, all facing Beijing. Thousands of smiling faces, all facing the red Sun. Bless you Chairman Mao, Long live!

December 8, 2005 @ 3:40 pm | Comment

I have a book of English translations of CR songs. My favorite has a line about “dragging Liu Xiaoqi, squirming, from his shell.”


December 8, 2005 @ 3:45 pm | Comment


That was not a critique of Communism, but a blatant display of christian-centric religious masterbation. Have a little self-control next time. Your comments are clearly contrary to the true meaning of Humanism. Hell and Satan exist only in your ugly, delusional mind.

December 8, 2005 @ 3:45 pm | Comment

Dang it, my “end snark” didn’t work!

December 8, 2005 @ 3:46 pm | Comment

“Get out you stupid!” is now going to be my catch phrase.

December 8, 2005 @ 6:36 pm | Comment

I totally agree with your comment on CCP.

Communism also is a religion, although china doesn’t allow religious freedom. what’s the difference between the religion of “communism” and other religions like catholic/muslim, is the CCP impose chinese believing the religion of “communism”.
CCP told chinese that there is no GOD in this world, but on the contrast, they worship MARX and MAO as their exclusive GOD.
the evidence? you can see many remarks like “MARX/MAO said..” in their textbook or other books.
In the CCP’s consititution, the level of CCP is higher than the NATION and the PEOPLE. when you joined the party/the administration, you will be requested to vow to “loyal to CCP and the NATION and its PEOPLE”. in china, this order means the CCP>NATION>PEOPLE.

December 8, 2005 @ 7:03 pm | Comment

around 3000 years ago, one famous ancient chinese philosopher said “PEOPLE is first,NATION is less important,and the KING is the most unimportant”
now 3000 years elapsed, many chinese still don’t understand this well-known saying’s true meaning. seems chinese haven’t evolved too much comparing to their ancestor who living in 3000 years ago.

December 8, 2005 @ 7:10 pm | Comment

jeffrey, you are one of those “chinese who have not evolved too much”, are you not? If you are really that ashamed to be a Chinese, there are many doctors who can dye your skin to a white color. If you want, I can recommend you a doctor.

December 8, 2005 @ 7:29 pm | Comment

I am ashamed of CCP.
you guys should know that CCP doesn’t represent China, doesn’t equal to China. how many chinese vote for your CCP? why is your CCP approving rate below 20%?

think it in your CCP logic, you love china so much, why do you still stay in US instead of China?

December 8, 2005 @ 8:12 pm | Comment

I am ashamed of CCP.

That’s not what you said. Many chinese still don’t understand this well-known saying’s true meaning. seems chinese haven’t evolved too much comparing to their ancestor who living in 3000 years ago.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:15 pm | Comment

don’t use such most nasty weapons to attack me.
you really didn’t understand my true meaning? i don’t think so.
if you are bound to focus on the literal meaning strictly, then go ahead.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:26 pm | Comment

i would like cite one example, this example is you.
do u really understand “people first, nation second,King third”?
tell me what this remarks means. please.

for a party which approving rate is below 20%, do you think this party should go to historical trash-bin ? why does this party still hold this country’s power?

December 8, 2005 @ 8:31 pm | Comment

HongXing, I hereby name you the official asshole of this site. That honor once belonged to another commenter who I thought could never be surpassed for assholishness, but you have achieved the impossible and taken the very concept of asshole to new levels. Congratulations.

And stop your insults to Jeffery – they are in truly poor taste.

December 8, 2005 @ 8:59 pm | Comment

Many chinese still don’t understand this well-known saying’s true meaning. seems chinese haven’t evolved too much comparing to their ancestor who living in 3000 years ago.

But all that can be fixed now, with Hongxing’s miraculous Chinese Super Evolution Program! That’s right, for a limited time only Hongxing will tell you what to think and do for the low, low price of your human dignity. Hongxing has traveled through time and physically beaten ancient Chinese scholars until they repeated his every word, and now you too can have welts, sores, and a frontal lobotomy just like his famous victims – recognizable by the “zi” at the end of their names!

Act now and he’ll throw in his new duet CD of classic Cultural Revolution songs, “Red Star over Flowing Waters” with Cantopop singing sensation MAJik! So stop being so disagreeable, and let Hongxing show you why having an opinion means you’re a traitor to your race who wants food coloring injected under your skin!

Supplies limited, some restrictions may apply, offer not valid in Alaska, Hawaii or the reality-based community.

December 9, 2005 @ 2:11 am | Comment

“Red Star over flowing waters….” Now that is funny. Thanks Dave.

December 9, 2005 @ 2:28 am | Comment

Still waiting for your expertise on Elvis, Hongxing.

Do you think it is possible that he was one of the composers of those CR-Hits?

December 9, 2005 @ 4:34 am | Comment

richard, your dubbing of hongxing is well deserved and very humorous. well done.

December 9, 2005 @ 5:04 am | Comment


What is it with this Elvis thing you are trying to force out of HongXing’s throat ? I must have missed something, but you have me seated at the tip of my chair to see the response coming (Elvis: composer of CR songs, now that would be a scoop that makes headlines ! Don’t let our friend off the hook :-))

As for the rest of this thread, I think it is one of the most bizarre ones I have ever read on this blog and I feel it is actually quite offensive. It is offensive in my opinion to the people who sat down together in 1921 to set up the CCP and whom I believe had ideals on how they saw China’s future. it is offensive to the likes of Castro, who in my opinion had ideals when he boarded the “Granma” to set out for Cuba. It is offensive to the likes of Che Guevara, who is till this day still praised for his idealism, yet he was a Communist. Is this an apology for the CCP ? Not in the least. History has proven that Communism and personal ambition interfere with one another, that their coexistence is hard and that’s where the deviations set in. So yes, the Commies have engaged in grave mistakes, but how many times has the line been crossed in the name of capitalism ?

And I agree with Other Lisa, Ivan, once you start pulling Satan and his friends into the equation, the only thing that seems right with me for that comment is a one-way ticket to the trashbin. You can not degrade people in such a way just because they are part of an organisation that overall has many flaws. With this comment, you have only proven that you are far from flawless yourself … like all of us.

December 9, 2005 @ 5:15 am | Comment

Lao Lu,
You see I am a big Elvis fan and I tought HX could help me getting a better understanding on all the rumors about Elvis. He once said he has deep inights into the USA and everything that is going on there (deeper that most other people he said, I think) so may be he also knows about Elvis. Also I don’t trust any Western people on this subject, as their view is certainy biased – especially those of Americans. HX’s surely not. He has prooven to have some refreshingly unortodox views on a big range of subjects so I’m curious what he has to say about Elvis.

December 9, 2005 @ 5:50 am | Comment


this has been a highly entertaining thread. i thanks you all. especially hongxing for making it all posible.

hey, HX, do you think you could help me to join the CCP? I think i could really make a difference, and help people!!

December 9, 2005 @ 8:17 am | Comment

Actually to become a CCP member is as difficult as College Entrance Examination in China, When I was in my 1st year study of my undergraduate in China, I applied the Pre-CCP training studies but I was rejected because of high competitiveness. that was only the 1st step and there are many many more steps one needs to pass in order to get a CCP membership.

December 9, 2005 @ 2:36 pm | Comment

Communism is a pretty awful religion. In a cock fight between it and National Socialism for the title of Ultimate!Evil, though, NS would win before the bell even rings.

But Lao Lu – putting Castro and Che Guevara out there as your examples of good comunists with ideals…honestly? One is all, “Ha! I’m dictator for life! Take that, Uncle Sam, pfffttt!” and the other is a Warhol-esque pop icon for teenage Marxists/environmentalists/lesbians/indie rocker wannabes.

And Elvis? Elvis is Up There, sitting on God’s fluffiest cloud, jammin’ it up with the Great Helmsman. Touched by the Helmsman’s revolutionary ideals, he is even thinking of penning a song to the tune of “The Golden Mango” (ha! Remember this gem?), only instead of Mao giving away mangoes to his faithful proleteriats, he gives away grilled peanut butter and bananas sammiches.

…just kidding. Elvis is probably in the VIP section of Heaven, where God puts all his most beloved and brilliant screwups. Meanwhile our Great Helmsman is roasting marshmellows in Satan’s anus.

Okay, this is enough crap from me. I’m going out. You guys have fun. Threads with Hongxing and/or Ivan are so entertaining everybody forgets that the topic had been the vice-mayor jumping out of the window and becoming pavement jam. It’s all fun and games until someone spills da benzene.

December 9, 2005 @ 3:52 pm | Comment

Whups. How stupid. It’s Jilin and the plant explosion. Way too many disasters, man.

December 9, 2005 @ 4:00 pm | Comment


December 9, 2005 @ 4:15 pm | Comment


Allow me to strongly disagree this time. When you get on a boat with 80 shoddy people, with the plan to take on several thousand soldiers and finally take over the island of Cuba from the US supported dicatator Batista, how would you define such a state of mind ? Either Castro was a wacko like no one else before him, either he had some very strong ideals that made him go there and do what he did. He is also living proof that communism and personal ambition at a certain point seem bound to start armwrestling, but let’s be honest, how would Cuba have looked like without the American embargo ? Neither you nor I know, but it is too easy to blame the pityful state of Cuba now entirely on Castro, and I grant him the benefit of the doubt that he believed in the communist values at the outset of his revolution. And what about Che, that “Warhol-esque pop icon” ? No doubt he has made many mistakes, but I have seen people going bankrupt in three enterprises and still becoming President of the most powerful nation by way of fraud in the ballot counting, while Che was at the top of his power in Cuba, when he decided the revolution should be spread to other countries and … hey, why not do it myself ? I guess he was on a funtrip to Congo, I guess he needed a kick so he went to die in the forests of Bolivia ? I hate it when people get reduced to their portrait in the today’s newspaper.

December 9, 2005 @ 4:17 pm | Comment

Sorry, Lao Lu, I’m really not equipped to respectfully and seriously argue with you the motivations and merits of the Bearded One or the Martyred One at this point. Exhaustion (1 hour and 45 minutes of sleep in two days) + relief (no more exams! no more books! no more teacher’s dirty looks!) + vodka/red bull makes me WONKY.

What I can say is…Castro may have initially believed in communism, but those communist “ideals” of his must have been pretty damn tenuous at the outset if after seizing power he can justify a life-long dictatorship, nepotism, political and social oppression, the liquidation of “couterrevolutionaries”, etc. Was it idealism, or megalomania masquerading as idealism all along?

And what of Che? I mean, yeah, he was self-sacrificing, he shunned power, but his ideals were absolutist, violent, “us against them”. They have little credence in this day and age. And what of those little socialist movements he spurred on in Congo and the Americas, and the fates of the young radicals who followed them?

On a lighter note…Castro and Trudeau were supposedly intellectual “soulmates”. (My favourite two politicians, btw, are Nixon and Trudeau.) And it was this thought that had inspired me during an improv competition to come up with a skit from “The Love that Dared Not Speak Its Name: Trudeau and Castro, a Musical”. This was around a week after Trudeau’s funeral, btw (which Castro attended). Needless to say it was not popular. Anyway.

Also, to y’all, Ivan does make sense, or sort of does, I think he does anyway, if I’ve got it straight. Bascially, I think his whole point was, encapsulated (correct me if I’m wrong):

Communism BOO.
Humanism YAY!
Down with dogma!
Up with people!

Oh, and God is Good. You go, God.

(Which I agree with, except maybe the God point. That really depends on whether we’re talking about angry Old Testament God or loving New Testament God. I’m going to bed now. ZZZzzzzz. Sorry Richard for taking up space on your comments section with sophomoric verbal effluviam. It will happen again.)

December 9, 2005 @ 7:41 pm | Comment

Is the Communist Party offended by my comment? GOOD! They asked for it. All I did, was to clarify what the Communist Party says, and how viciously nihilistic and anti-Humanist the Communist Party is.

So is Christianity, Ivan. Where do you think Lenin got his institutional arrangements from…

a bishop is a political overseer
a pastor is a cell leader
a Church is a cell
Church theology = Party doctrine
abolute morals = objective laws of history
Church = Party
God = Authority of Party

The Catholic Church is a Leninist institution, built for control. Fortunately over the centuries it has been secularized to a great extent, and it has lost the temporal power that gave Christianity and the Church their bite. Believers are able to go far to reconstruct their beliefs so that they accord with a progressive, human-centered ethic. But there is no difference between the claim that “every knee shall bend” and Communism will rule the world. I think that’s why Christianity and Communism hate each other so much.


December 9, 2005 @ 10:00 pm | Comment

I actually really like the “angry old testament” god. I’ve read the Torah (or most of it) once or twice, and I think Judaism rocks. you don’t go anywhere when you die, you just die. And you can be a total atheist and still be considered jewish. David Cross has a great skit about it but I doubt anyone’s heard it.

December 10, 2005 @ 6:13 am | Comment

“Plenty of people of good will joined the Communist Party because they thought it was a means to a good end.”

I’m sure plenty of German’s joined the Nazi party for the same reason.

What’s a bunch of dead Jews and Chinese when you’re trying to better the world?

Can’t make an omlet without breaking a few eggs, right Lisa?

December 10, 2005 @ 8:05 am | Comment

Michael Turton, you wrote:

“The Catholic Church is a Leninist institution.”


…I know you’re a smart guy, but CAN you back up and realize just how RIDICULOUS and entirely illogical and anachronistic and ahistorical that statement is?

You (and I) can think of a LOT of reasons to curse the official Roman Catholic Church. But DON’T stoop so low, and get so sloppy, as to call it “Leninist.”

And I challenge you to name ANY professed “Leninist” who has ever born ANY similarity to (the Catholic) Saint Francis of Assisi, who wrote:

“Lord, make me an instrument of your Peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love,
….etc etc….”

The Catholic Church has been a LOT of evil things, but it has NEVER been Leninist. AND, another essential difference between the Catholic Church and Leninists, is that AT LEAST the FOUNDER of Christianity taught peace, and renunciation of the idea that “might makes right”, but Lenin taught the opposite.

Jesus H Christ! (… :-), by the way, the American way of saying “Jesus H Christ” was a technical way of avoiding blasphemy – because Jesus did not have a middle initial. ๐Ÿ™‚ JESUS H CHRIST, Michael Turton, have you been reading too many Jack Chick tracts? ๐Ÿ™‚

(Go to Jack Chick’s website, at:
www. chick.com to see his rabidly anti-Catholic cartoons, and his anti-Muslim cartoons, etc etc…..and really, I have a paradoxical RESPECT for Jack Chick, as he is one of the last great Insane Protestant Pamphleteers whose tradition goes back to the apocalyptic German woodcuts of the 1500s…………. ๐Ÿ™‚

December 10, 2005 @ 8:32 am | Comment

Also, I agree with LW’s comment, “Judaism rocks!” (And I’m a Catholic, technically. Although I admit I have some Jewish blood.)

Yeah, it’s true! Judaism rocks, because it is SO OPEN to ALL kinds of interpretations in Humanist ways. Oh and that is why LW was NOT QUITE correct when he said “in Judaism you don’t go anywhere when you die.” Actually, SOME Jews (especially the Hasids) believe in a very exquisitely designed kind of Heaven.

But you don’t have to believe in Heaven to be a good Jew. It’s your choice. In fact, in Judaism, just about EVERYTHING is your own choice.

Which is why Jesus was such a great Jew. That’s what he taught. He taught people to think for themselves, which is what the best Jews always teach.

Ah, but WHY should any creature think for himself, in freedom, UNLESS
free will is the nature of his existence? And if that is so, then it implies a transcendent and superordinate reality (“God”) which is essentially free – and which created Humans in its own image.

Yep, Judaism ROCKS! Because Judaism presumes that the nature of Man is to think for himself, and to struggle toward Truth without any final answer….. ๐Ÿ™‚

And Jesus rocked because he taught the same thing.

December 10, 2005 @ 8:53 am | Comment

???, because I decline to support the proposition that all members of the CCP should burn in hell doesn’t mean I’m defending the crimes of the CCP. Where have I ever done that? How many times have I advocated a greater degree of dem0cr@cy as a potential fix for some of China’s massive problems?

(answer: lots).

But given the circumstances under which the CCP was founded, I’d be hard-pressed to deny that many who joined did so out of patriotism, the desire to build a strong and independent China. What came after is a whole different story.

And so far as today’s China goes, it is extremely difficult to participate at an influential level in government, intelligensia or business without being a member. Does it make any kind of moral sense to choose to participate in this way? I’m not sure. It seemed for a while that within more reformist strains of the CCP was the possibility to evolve into some kind of more dem0crat1c, representative system. Maybe that isn’t the way things are going, and it’s better to remove onesself entirely. But that’s a tough call. If you are a real reformer in China and you want to make things better, what do you do? If it’s wrong to try and participate in the system as it stands, this is still a difficult, complicated decision.

It’s entirely possible that the current system is too compromised and corrupted to reform itself, and that it’s better to let it collapse and not try to reform it. That’s sort of the Leninist argument about “liberalism,” right?

I hate to think of the consequences of a China collapse, though.

But I’m becoming less optimistic, at this point, that the current regime has what it takes to stave that off.

December 10, 2005 @ 10:56 am | Comment



December 10, 2005 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Peking Duck,

How do you choose which words to misspell? Is there a list or do you just use your judgment?

December 10, 2005 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

Awww, thanks Ivan.

Sonagi, there are some key words we know cause problems – the Net Nanny has filters designed to catch them (“d3m0cr@cy, T1@n@nm3n in the context of you know what). Whenever an incident like the d3m0nstr@tion reported below happens, I tend to be extra careful, avoiding place names and the like. Some postings on the last big pr0t3st seemed to have alerted the Nanny, as people on the mainland had some problems accessing while those posts were up.

I probably go overboard, but I’d rather not take chances.

December 10, 2005 @ 5:10 pm | Comment

hey, thought you guys might be interested, I spotted two Anti English Blog articles on China Daily (with proper credit given).

Also a roundup of this week in bad news about China, with a twist:

闭门造(外宣传)车: Building a Propaganda Cart Behind Closed Doors

So concludes shameless self-promotion.

Shulan, what do you think should be the official history of Elvis? Should it include the older, fatter Elvis? If so, would we then say that Elvis was only 70% cool, and 30% of the time he had way too many fried peanut butter sandwiches?

December 10, 2005 @ 6:22 pm | Comment


Prof Rummel has posted the full review by Nathan on Chang/Halliday book.

December 10, 2005 @ 6:27 pm | Comment

you censored the word fr33d0m and p3ace?…why?

December 10, 2005 @ 6:28 pm | Comment

I don’t think I did ‘peace.’ I might have done ‘freedom.’ Can’t recall if that’s on the no-no list. I expect it depends on context.

Also keep in mind that I put up these posts under the influence of a sinus infection and may not have been thinking too clearly.

December 10, 2005 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

So it would be helpful if posters also altered spellings of troublesome words and names?

December 10, 2005 @ 6:50 pm | Comment

Yes, if you think about it. It’s not as big an issue in the comments as on the main page – though I think there have been intermittent problems with comments as well.

Maybe next time Richard pops in he can enlighten us…

December 10, 2005 @ 6:56 pm | Comment

Davesgonechina’s “propaganda cart” post is great – check it out!

December 10, 2005 @ 7:24 pm | Comment

Ivan, how do you know what Jesus taught?

December 10, 2005 @ 8:42 pm | Comment

Michael Turton, you wrote:

“The Catholic Church is a Leninist institution.”


…I know you’re a smart guy, but CAN you back up and realize just how RIDICULOUS and entirely illogical and anachronistic and ahistorical that statement is?

I already showed you how the Communist Party and the Catholic Church have the same institutional arrangements. Have you noticed that your “argument” is entirely devoid of any references to concrete facts?

You (and I) can think of a LOT of reasons to curse the official Roman Catholic Church. But DON’T stoop so low, and get so sloppy, as to call it “Leninist.”

Why not? Say something concrete please! The Church and the Party have the same belief in absolute morals, the same prediliction for violence, the same institutional arrangments, the same demand for universal control and power, the same indoctrination programs for the young and for young adults, the same doctrine that is supposed to govern all aspects of human affairs, the same worship of authority, the same utopia in the future, and so on. Communism is Catholicism with the serial numbers filed off.

And I challenge you to name ANY professed “Leninist” who has ever born ANY similarity to (the Catholic) Saint Francis of Assisi, who wrote:

“Lord, make me an instrument of your Peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love,
….etc etc….”

Are you for real? There have been many Communists who genuinely loved peace and humanity. And I am sure you are aware of how the Franciscans were leaders in the Inquisition….

The Catholic Church has been a LOT of evil things, but it has NEVER been Leninist.

“Leninist” refers to political organization. And the Church most certainly is Leninist. As we discussed. I await concrete points from you.

AND, another essential difference between the Catholic Church and Leninists, is that AT LEAST the FOUNDER of Christianity taught peace, and renunciation of the idea that “might makes right”, but Lenin taught the opposite.

Ivan, you’re confused about many things. First, the term Leninist refers to the organization of the institution, not to the content of its doctrine. Second, no one can say for sure what Jesus taught. Third, no serious scholar believes Jesus founded a Church. That is a bit of post-easter legendizing retrojected into the canonical gospels.

Jesus H Christ! (… :-), by the way, the American way of saying “Jesus H Christ” was a technical way of avoiding blasphemy – because Jesus did not have a middle initial. ๐Ÿ™‚

Ivan, are you so ignorant of your own religion that you do not know that while Jesus is a common name, Christ is not a name at all, but a title?

JESUS H CHRIST, Michael Turton, have you been reading too many Jack Chick tracts? ๐Ÿ™‚

No, I’ve been studying early Christianity history. As you clearly have not.


December 10, 2005 @ 9:04 pm | Comment

About changing words to outfox the censors: This is something I almost never do, and I don’t recommend it. First of all, this site has hosted controversial posts about every conceivable hot-button issue in China and has been blocked only two or three times in three years, usually because of Tiananmen Square and, more recently, Taishi. But the block lasts only a few days and everyone knows how to get around it anyway. By re-spelling words, I think we are in effect letting the censors win. That’s because the only way posts like these are going to get read by a wider audience is via the search engines. When we mis-spell Taishi (Tai$hi), those searching on Google or technorati won’t find our posts and that defeats part of the purpose of this blog. Lisa has written these great posts on Dongzhou, but there’s no way for readers outside this inner circle to find them if we don’t use the keywords. So while I understand and respect what guest bloggers and commenters are doing by confounding the censorship filters, I recommend we spell things out and not allow the censors to dictate how we operate this site.

December 10, 2005 @ 10:24 pm | Comment

Richard, in that case, feel free to edit whatever things I “mispelled” that you feel appropriate. As I recall, it was Taishi that got TPD blocked for a few days, and I was worried that Dongzhou was going to be another one of those.

December 10, 2005 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

Lisa, no problem – it’s up to you and Martyn in your respective posts and I don’t need to change anything.

December 10, 2005 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

I just wanna do whut’s best fer the site!

December 11, 2005 @ 12:01 am | Comment

Richard: please remember that the T@ishi post actually had TPD blocked for weeks – as I recall it was nearly a month.
Also, just to let you know, I am unable to access the comments on “It gets worse 1”, “It gets worse 2” and “Xinhua sets the record straight”. If I try any of them without a proxy then I can’t access the comments for any post at all. And I’ve been through all the usual proxies and only found one that works on them.
Now I must say that this selective block is much better than the last one, but…it’s still a pain, and I’m unable to comment on those threads (because the one proxy that works won’t let me comment).

December 11, 2005 @ 2:01 am | Comment

Interesting, Dish – those posts are already heavily edited to wipe out controversial key words, so I don’t understand it. The Taishi thread was unique in this site’s history, as it got my entire site blocked in China. I was actually told by knowledgeable soursces that “Taishi” isn’t what did it, but rather the name of the victim, Lu Bangjie (sp?), which caused the blockage of several other sites at the time. And it did so even after I changed it to Tai$hi. Literally every day I hear from someone in some part of China that they can’t open my site or a particular post. I don’t think coding every word is the answer, as the site STILL gets blocked with the coded words, and the tradeoff (making the site more insular) is too high.

December 11, 2005 @ 2:07 am | Comment

Explosions around London just reported on CNN… Very vague, no mention of the “T” word…yet.

Update: Stictly an accident, they say.

December 11, 2005 @ 2:18 am | Comment

From the Director emeritus of the China Support Network:
The Chinese government:
– Out to lunch
– Criminally insane
– Dangerous
In new massacre / latest atrocity, Beijing returns to shooting civilians
– Now shooting farmers
– Now shooting villagers
– Now shooting fishermen

December 11, 2005 @ 4:24 am | Comment

It’s just the comment threads, not the posts. Have any suspicious words been left in any of the comments? (Yeah, quite a lot I think.) Anyway, definitely an improvement on the T@ishi blockage, and I appreciate the reasoning behind your lack of ed1t1ng.

December 11, 2005 @ 6:28 am | Comment

And yeah, it seems Hemel Hempsted just blew up. We can but hope that it’ll remind people of the long-term consequences of current unsustainable fuel policies.

December 11, 2005 @ 6:51 am | Comment


The older “fater” Elvis for sure must be included. He gave one of his greatest concerts back in 1973 (Hawaii) when he allready had widened a little in the middle. And from my (surley biased) point of view he was at least 99% cool. The idea to set him in any relation with the great helsman allready is, well, infuriating.

But one thing came to my mind recently and perhaps, Hongxing, you could help me with that. Could it be that there exists a secret file about Elvis within the chinese bureaucracy somewhere (something like: Elivis. The untold story)? If he was one of the composers of the CR-hits for sure. And could you perhaps help me in tracking it down? You certainly have good guanxi inside the apparatus, don’t you?

December 11, 2005 @ 7:18 am | Comment

Lost in the mire of the comments one reads: “Hemel Hempsted just blew up”

December 11, 2005 @ 3:05 pm | Comment

I couldn’t resist:
HEADLINE: China Daily English Perplexes Masses Around the Globe, Yet Again
TEXT: China strongly opposes to the assault of the US government on the pretext of human rights issue.

In other front page news: A man walks past an exhibition depicting Japanese atrocities in China during World War II in Nanjing, East China’s Jiangsu Province.

For all this, and more, be sure to visit chinadaily.com.cn

December 11, 2005 @ 7:08 pm | Comment

And on that note, we’ll go to a new thread.

December 11, 2005 @ 10:12 pm | Comment

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.