The Thread Cometh

Oh no — it’s here!

The Discussion: 104 Comments

Ha Ha Ha, I saw the article about you and Gordon on China Daily and it’s good to know China sees you as sick idiots and losers. You know what diu lei lo mo means? It means I love you in Chinese. Diu lei lo mo, diu lei lo mo, diu lei lo mo. We love you. Ha Ha Ha.

July 22, 2005 @ 7:31 pm | Comment

heh. Have you seen Sam’s latest post? He’s brushing up on his skills for a job at CNN or China Daily.
I caught some flack for my initial post on the most recent bombings, but I think the second one about the Asian guy being shot in the head as a suspected bomber may have just supported my contentions.

There’s a reason why terrorists haven’t been pulling off suicide bombs in America, but I don’t know what it is.
Any guesses from the ugly Duckings?

(keep in mind that I’m not saying American gun ownership is the only thing preventing this – just that it may be a factor.)

July 22, 2005 @ 7:43 pm | Comment

If I delete that first comment will I be accused of evil censorship and fascist tendencies?

July 22, 2005 @ 7:56 pm | Comment

Gordon, neither of those links works. What’s with you and your links lately?

July 22, 2005 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

Richard, just celebrate your latent Fascist tendencies and delete it…

Gordon, I think your argument is…a stretch at best. There haven’t been terrorist attacks in France or Germany or Italy either. As for Spain, I don’t know what their laws on private gun ownership are, but they have a TON of police on the streets and they are armed with biiig rifles! Scary looking things with a whole lotta bullets.

If a person is willing to blow himself up on a bus or a train, why would he worry about hidden handguns on passing strangers? Look at Israel – how many guns per person do they have there? And has this stopped suicide bombers? Um, no.

Lack of attacks in the US could be for any number of reasons. It’s harder for militants to gain access and we don’t have as many of the homegrown variety. We’ve had some really good luck too – remember the Milennium plot in 2000? Foiled due to an alert Customs agent.

Besides, we are losing Americans every day in Iraq. Osama accomplished what he wanted to on 9/11 – he wouldn’t have to explode another bomb here; he got what he wanted, the US invading an oil-rich, Muslim country, the thing he claimed we’ve been planning to do all along…

Just my 3 cents.

July 22, 2005 @ 8:09 pm | Comment

and btw, here’s “Red” Ken’s statement on their police policy: “If you are dealing with someone who might be a suicide bomber, if they remain conscious, they could trigger plastic explosives or whatever device is on them,” said Mayor Ken Livingstone. “Therefore, overwhelmingly in these circumstances, it is going to be a shoot-to-kill policy.”

Listen, some of us lefty types know when deadly force is appropriate.

July 22, 2005 @ 8:14 pm | Comment

richard, if I may venture a criticism …
it’s just that I can’t work out when the previous open thread ended and this one started…!

can I just comment on the last thing you posted there: I’m really glad to see you still posting and so on despite the recent nonsense … really made me happy to see.

still, as you can probably gather from the previous open thread, seething at Gordon, but hey, what’s new?!

July 22, 2005 @ 8:45 pm | Comment

KLS, the old thread is now buried lower down on the site, and there are almost 200 comments there. So I closed it, as we don’t want seaprate threads open at the same time. Every night I open a new thread and then a few minutes later I close the old thread. Out of respect, I will now open the old thread for a while so you can comment there, but this is the standard procedure…. Thanks.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:01 pm | Comment

no don’t worry Richard, it’s just that I think I came in just at the point when you were closing one and opening another!
yes I did see the stuff on the china daily.
it is possible it could all work out for the best? I ask because people there (although I guess with these kinds of things it’s never easy to know if one person is representing 50 people’s opinions or just one) are pointing out that the posts you write up are valuable to chinese people.
in fact, it looks like it’s becoming a pride thing — ie, “we chinese are developed enough now to take a bit of criticism and indeed learn from it, and if you disagree it must be because you think china is still weak and incapable of dealing with criticism” which is all excellent news for your site.

how do you fancy being the next, edgier, Da Shan?

July 22, 2005 @ 9:14 pm | Comment

Well, as soon as the CCP invites me to be the next Da Shan I’ll consider.

Meanwhile, the really sad news is that China Daily’s censors went and deleted all the posts from Conrad and Lisa and me and Gordon and others yesterday — all the comments that point out how our friend was making things up. All the comments hailing him and slamming us as “China haters” remained. A few new comments came on later condemning our friend, but I’m afraid they’ll be deleted tooi. The supreme irony is that the entire basis of his article was the policy of deleting comments! And yet, I suspect he won’t say a word about the censorship of comments with which he disagrees.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:19 pm | Comment

No shit? That’s low. Not that I had much respect for the China Daily to begin with -used as litter-box liner in this house, and only because the cats can’t read- but that’s despicable even for them.

However, with regards to Pogai’s comment, what’s life without the occasional troll? Leave him there. I think we’re secure enough in our convictions to withstand his presence.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:27 pm | Comment

really, I hadn’t realised that, though I did read those spirited and appropriate rebuttals earlier in the day.
I wonder if they were deleted because they attacked madge, or if they were deleted because they were (necessarily) sordid?

seriously, about the Da San thing, I don’t mean to be trite and I hope this whole business doesn’t cause you any permanent discomfort, but … let us know after a few weeks if you’re seeing a spike in readers with Chinese IP addresses.

you know, something I was wondering earlier about the worth of madge’s “letter” being hosted elsewhere: if you had several chinese commenters arguing like crazy on your website about free speech or politics or whatever, wouldn’t you be inclined *initially* to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least while you were working out what was going on, and be proud to host a conversation that appeared (appeared) to get to the roots of so many previous dissentions?

mind, I’m stressing the word “initially” here.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:28 pm | Comment


I don’t really think you can include France and Germany in this one. They aren’t participating in the Iraq war. Do the French even have soldiers in Afghanistan?

As for the shooting, I understand the reason why they shot him, but I have to agree with a point Will made to me in an email:

“this guy wasn’t, in the end, carrying a bomb, which raises all sorts of uncomfortable questions for the London police and for muslims in England.”

July 22, 2005 @ 9:36 pm | Comment

Some that were deleted simply quoted what our friend said on other threads – just some quotes. Many of those remaining verge on the obscene, just bursting with hatred. It was a very educational experience seeing how they handle things.

Yes, I would certainlly give Chinese commenters the benefit of the doubt if they were debating free speech here, and I’d be happy to host their comments. In fact, that’s happened here many times. But madge’s comments were not in that category. There was something totally creepy about them. Totally.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:36 pm | Comment

That’s because they didn’t read like a literate critique (possibly because they weren’t plagiarized). They read like a vendetta, which is what they were.

The funny thing is that there is a real story there, on how expat bloggers see and portray China, which the CD could do something with if they were halfway interested and it didn’t raise the spectre of censorship. But there’s little time for that in MAJ’s bitter and hypocritical tirade.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:42 pm | Comment

as far as I’m concerned, the whole topic of non-chinese bloggers’ attitudes to china and so on is not appropriate or easy territory for several weeks now anywhere in the sphere which has included madge’s influence.

July 22, 2005 @ 9:52 pm | Comment

I noticed that they didn’t delete their Chinese commenter (xuechin) who was somewhat taking a stance against MAJ.

Is there any damaging content on there referring to you that could lead to a libel or defamation of character suit?

July 22, 2005 @ 9:55 pm | Comment

Gordon, I need a good lawyer in China to answer that. As you know, it’s something we’re working on.

KLS, you’re quite right. This whole mess has got to recede. Luckily, virtually every blog that has hosted his comments – even my friend Bingfeng’s blog – has ended up deleting them if not banning him altogether. Where else can he go now except China Daily, that bastion of objectivity, fairness and unbiased intellectual inquiry?

July 22, 2005 @ 9:59 pm | Comment

I don’t think any of it is libellous.
but I only know UK libel law.
still, UK libel law is one of the harshest (on those publishing).

July 22, 2005 @ 10:00 pm | Comment

as for Chinese libel law, I’d imagine you need good guanxi. and who is going to give you better guanxi than the guanxi the China Daily (the publisher) has?

July 22, 2005 @ 10:03 pm | Comment

and even if you had such guanxi, is it really worth wasting on something like this.

been reading the daodejing in translation recently. blame Laowai1979…
One may gain by losing first, and
One may lose by gaining first.

not only that, but
He who knows the contentment of being contented
Will always be contented.

also heard it said: don’t worry, be happy now!!

July 22, 2005 @ 10:08 pm | Comment

Bingfeng strikes again: (from his latest blog entry)

what china’s public security bureau mainly does is to prevent and punish crimes like everywhere in the rest of the world, just like 99% of american troops’ daily job is not to abuse POWs at their hands.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:12 pm | Comment

Richard, when did Bingfeng delete MAJs’ posts and comments because I was just over there and he’s posting like a rabid dog.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:21 pm | Comment

I rather think the froth is coming from your chops, Gordon.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:24 pm | Comment

oops, sorry, bit out of line there

July 22, 2005 @ 10:27 pm | Comment

Bingfeng put up two separate posts from MAJ. In the first one, our friend became so unhinged that BF simply deleted every single comment and closed the thread. With the current thread, started yesterday, it’s mainly our friend simply talking to himself, like that weird man on the corner you see wearing a knit cap and pushing a shopping cart and looking like he really needs a shave and a bath.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:27 pm | Comment

KLA and Gordon, can’t you two just get along? This is a love site, not a hate site. Can we hold hands and sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya? What do I have to do??

July 22, 2005 @ 10:28 pm | Comment

richard, the beauty of the worldwide web is that it is published and available everywhere — that is also its downfall when it comes to defamation suits. there is no reason why you could not sue the China Daily for defamation in California, New York, England, Hong Kong or anywhere else the web site is available and you believe defames you. No need for you to have to rely on Chinese defamation laws. Hititng the China Daily’s NY office with a defamation writ — I’d like to see that! I’m sure there’s any number of NY lawyers out there who’d like to do it just for the humour factor.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:28 pm | Comment

Thanks lawyer — please, all you ambulance chasers, email me!!

July 22, 2005 @ 10:30 pm | Comment

Okay, time for a rest. Shanghai Slim, if you are reading this, please send me an email. I have a special favor to ask. Thanks.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:31 pm | Comment

richard, I’m not sure Gordon and the Kurdish Liberation Army are ever going to see eye to eye.
ps sorry but this suing idea is clearly a pipe dream. anyway, you don’t need to get back at madge, he’s hurting himself.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:36 pm | Comment

KLS, I’m not seriously thinking of suing. But some of my friends are, and if they come back with a serious proposal for doing so I’ll listen. But frankly I have better things to do…

July 22, 2005 @ 10:41 pm | Comment


I’m not frothing. Bingfeng simply made an huge unfounded and unfair statement that I take serious issue with.

There are some despicable soldiers within our ranks, but the majority of American soldiers are some of the finest you will find in the world. I know, because I was one of them.

July 22, 2005 @ 10:54 pm | Comment

well then you’re clearly an impartial source on this then, gordon!

July 22, 2005 @ 10:57 pm | Comment

I’m not thinking of suing. Only yourself and a very small handful of people that I trust to have integrity know my true identity. So it’s really not a threat to me and now that all of this has come about I’ll make damned sure that I keep my identity under the wrapper.

July 22, 2005 @ 11:02 pm | Comment

No, just the opposite KLS.

You’re placing the actions of a few despicable soldiers represent the entire military and they don’t.

Part of the reason US soldiers are dying on a daily basis over there in Iraq (aside from the fact that they are there) is because of the few split seconds they pause before pulling that trigger. If they didn’t hold respect for human life, there wouldn’t be any insurgents to battle with because they would just shoot the hell out of everyone.

I’ve served with some of the best of them and that’s how I know that with exception to the few sleezes you’re referring to, the rest of them place a high value on integrity and human decency.

Take a look here for several examples:

July 22, 2005 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

WTF?? This is one of the latest comments on the CD from a Chinese poster.

ZhangLing 2005-07-23 09:36
“What a great recommendation. I see, after reading the Peking Duck, that the writer Mr. Jones was thrown off the site for being too dishonest and obsessive. Perhaps he doth protest too much?”

You are wrong! Mr. Jones has done a great service to point out these lickspittle free-thinkers. China’s government is very wise to control all information on blogs, and it is obvious Jones’ purpose is to get the naughty blogs blocked here.

Too much free talk, and Chinese people will get ideas!


July 22, 2005 @ 11:36 pm | Comment

ok, so you’re not an impartial source.

listen, I’m sure a lot of the US troops are honourable people and well trained in fighting.
but it’s well known that since Vietnam the US places a massive importance on force protection.
this is good news, in the short term, for the US soldiers. but bad news for anyone around them, be they enemy combatants, innocent civilians, reporters, allies.

arguably, it’s not a way to win hearts and minds.
arguably, it’s instead a way to fire up resistance.
arguably, it’s eventually counterproductive.

what would you rather be, a Chinese wrongly arrested by the PSB for being F L G … or an Iraqi wrongly arrested by the US for being a militant?

July 22, 2005 @ 11:41 pm | Comment

Gordon, I think that poster, ZhangLing, is pretty cool, or am I reading it wrong? I think he’s attacking Madge (props to KLS for MAJ’s new permanent nickname) and the Chinese government’s policy of censorship. God forbid the Chinese people should “get ideas,” after all.

July 23, 2005 @ 12:17 am | Comment

what would you rather be, a Chinese wrongly arrested by the PSB for being F L G … or an Iraqi wrongly arrested by the US for being a militant?

I’m not even going to dignify that with a response.

July 23, 2005 @ 12:49 am | Comment

Yeah, I detect some irony in his remark as well. I think he’s not exactly toeing the official line, if you will.

July 23, 2005 @ 12:53 am | Comment

Other Lisa, are you sure about that? As soon as I read “lickspittle freethinkers” my first thought was that ZhangLing was simply the latest MAJ disguise.

I know some Chinese use quaintly archaic words now and then (a student recently told me he went swimming in a “natatorium”), but … “lickspittle freethinkers”? To me that doesn’t sound like a phrase a Chinese writer would come up with.

Richard, just saw your note and am emailing you now.

July 23, 2005 @ 12:57 am | Comment

er, probably an Iraqi wrongly arrested by the US, actually. I mean, let’s be honest here. I’m the first to decry the abuses committed by my government, but I still think the odds are better than with the Chinese and Fajita Loving Guys.

I mean, let’s get real.

I was just talking about this tonight with another lefty friend. You know, I wasn’t the biggest Clinton fan in the world. But the fact is, you can go to poor peoples’ houses all around the world, in India, in Africa, and South America, and find portraits of Clinton in these houses. And when Clinton travels to different countries these days, he’s treated like effin’ Elvis.

The thing is, I think a lot of people in the world WANT to believe in the US. They really do. That’s why we get so much flack when things like Iraq and Abu Ghraib happen. If we present ourselves as moral examples for the rest of the world to live up to, you’d better believe we are going to get slapped down hard when we don’t live up to our own principles. Some people are jealous about what we have, and others look to us to be better than that.

And you look at how much good will someone like Clinton was able to generate, and how quickly George Bush squandered it, and what can I say? It’s really, truly sad.

July 23, 2005 @ 1:01 am | Comment

Well, Shanghai, it’s hard to tell for sure, but that’s why I read it as irony. “lickspittle freethinkers” being sort of old-line propaganda, then that next line of, well, god forbid the Chinese people should be exposed to that sort of thing and think for themselves.

I can’t tell for sure but that’s my reading of it.

July 23, 2005 @ 1:03 am | Comment

Other Lisa, your post about Clinton and people wanting to believe the American Dream is now itself hanging on the wall of someone’s home. ๐Ÿ™‚

I have to write you soon to compare what 80s/90s bands we have both seen live …

July 23, 2005 @ 1:31 am | Comment

thanks, Shanghai. Looking forward to it. But can I just say, TALKING HEADS! YEAH!!!!

July 23, 2005 @ 1:36 am | Comment

Yeah Lisa, I’m not quite sure what to make of that either.

I took it as being someone like Bingfeng – someone that doesn’t have any problems with the CCP or their control over the internet.

It could be irony. Who knows.

July 23, 2005 @ 1:43 am | Comment

Gordon, I’m going with irony. But then, I’m sort of a latent optimist!

July 23, 2005 @ 1:50 am | Comment

Other Lisa and Sam:
That CD comment seemed to me to be tongue-in-cheek or a back handed slam against CCP.

July 23, 2005 @ 1:55 am | Comment


Save that expression for Cantonese commies. And better make them pogai. LOL

July 23, 2005 @ 2:04 am | Comment

Hey, I was wondering if that was Cantonese! Certainly no Mandarin I’ve ever heard!

July 23, 2005 @ 2:06 am | Comment

That comment could also be from one of those roving gov’t footsoldiers who counter negative remarks in chatrooms, etc. It sounds so boilerplate.

Even if there is only one of these guys, I would expect China Daily’s comments sections to be a natural for his list of places to monitor and post.

July 23, 2005 @ 2:30 am | Comment

Oops, I was referring to the “lickspittle freethinker” post, not pogai’s.

July 23, 2005 @ 2:32 am | Comment

OOO! Ooo! I’d rather be the Iraqi any day of the week. Ever read “Eighteen Layers of Hell?” Yeeesh.

Zhangling….hmmm it reads like a sarcastic remark aimed at Madge, but then again as someone pointed out… it sounds like Madge.

July 23, 2005 @ 3:08 am | Comment

Looks like ACB is having his rounds with Madge on his latest Rebecca M. posting.

July 23, 2005 @ 3:12 am | Comment

Could anybody who has had a troll attack made by MAJ, come over to ACB and post the name that he used and if possible a link (i not to the comment, at least to te blog), I’m compiling a list of his ‘fake IDs’ and the sites that he’s gone after.

The creep posted on my site that peole were pretending to be him, I’ve tracked his computer and he certiainly visited my site several times using at least three different names.

July 23, 2005 @ 3:25 am | Comment

He’s never left any comments on my blog, but his IP address had been recorded on my blog.

July 23, 2005 @ 3:36 am | Comment

Hey! I just visited the China Daily site and I noticed they have also deleted the following information from MAJs’ article:

Personal details about China-lover:

EDITED BY SITE OWNER: As rewarding as it might be to post this personal information, it could cause harm and suffering, and no decent person would do that sort of thing to another. Would they?

July 23, 2005 @ 3:44 am | Comment

I think China Daily is just inviting people to participate in a blogosphere wide desecrate Mao day, or some such pettiness. Fry the firewall.

July 23, 2005 @ 3:44 am | Comment

i kindly suggest richard to remove the post that contains MAJ’s personal information.

not only for MAJ, but also for everyone involved.

thank you, gentlemen.

July 23, 2005 @ 4:09 am | Comment

diu le lo mo means “f**k your mother”, a dirty word not frequently used by cantonese young people

just read an article on chinese putonghua, and know that many chinese dialects could be regarded as foreign languages in places like europe, so i speak 5 “foreign languages” besides putonghua? sounds funny

July 23, 2005 @ 4:15 am | Comment

“I took it as being someone like Bingfeng – someone that doesn’t have any problems with the CCP or their control over the internet.”


refusing boycott american troops doesn’t mean supporting the abuse of iraqi pows

can’t believe Gordon you misread me like that

July 23, 2005 @ 4:20 am | Comment

Wow! As MAJ would say, it’s information that was already posted publicly.

I recall seeing it on the China Daily yesterday too.

Fair is fair! I’d leave it up if I were you Richard.

July 23, 2005 @ 4:20 am | Comment

“Wow! As MAJ would say, it’s information that was already posted publicly.

I recall seeing it on the China Daily yesterday too.

Fair is fair! I’d leave it up if I were you Richard.

Posted by Dave at July 23, 2005 04:20 AM ”


richard himself doesn’t want his personal information, which previously made public, appear on china daily web site.

doesn’t you understand that?

but it’s fine with me if you guys just want to abuse somebody by revealing his privacy. anyway, it should be less painful than those those of POWs abused by american soldiers

you are just as insane as someone you don’t like

July 23, 2005 @ 4:27 am | Comment

yeah, take it down. No need to stoop to Madge’s level.

BF – you don’t speak 5 foreign languages. the question is whether you speak 5 different dialects or 5 different languages. Like switzerland – a german speaker doesn’t consider speaking Romany to be speaking a “foreign” language, but considers it just to be another of Switzerland’s languages.

Anyway, are you fluent in wuhua, guangdonghua, fujian etc? That’s incredible. congratulations. You’re like this amazing janitor we had at my university who spoke 7 languages – all self-taught – and was teaching himself another 2 in his free time. He was an amazing guy. Hungarian.

July 23, 2005 @ 4:46 am | Comment

I think Bingfeng is more like a regular, everyday,common janitor.

July 23, 2005 @ 4:59 am | Comment

BF – obviously I wasn’t making reference to you being a janitor. Just that speaking 5 languages is pretty amazing.

July 23, 2005 @ 5:45 am | Comment

It’s Kiss Bingfeng’s Ass Day?

July 23, 2005 @ 5:49 am | Comment

Lisa’s guess about ZhangLing is correct.

July 23, 2005 @ 5:55 am | Comment

hmm…I have mixed thoughts about the personal info post, but I think Dave has a point. Madge started all of this and he is the one who wrote that article for the China Daily and he was the one that gave all of his personal information.

With all the stuff he dug up on Richard and accused him of, Madge has no right to complain about anything.

Besides, he’s such a fan of posting information contained on public webpages so he shouldn’t mind, eh?

July 23, 2005 @ 6:01 am | Comment

How powerless you freedom frighters are when confronted by an authoritarian and roguish China Daily.

My sympathies

July 23, 2005 @ 6:08 am | Comment

My, what fine weather for trolling today!


July 23, 2005 @ 6:16 am | Comment

“My, what fine weather for trolling today!”

Must be the 93F heat that’s kept them all in front of their PC’s.

July 23, 2005 @ 6:36 am | Comment


I just saw the remarks you left on that bingfeng ‘blog’. Everyone knows his defense of Commie PSB is full of s*it, but why did you bother to argue with him? He is a paid lapdog working for ChiComs, and your remarks only secure his job and even boost his pay.

Ignore him. I know all too well what kind of creature he is, and what social class he belongs to. Supporting ChiCom is his only solution. He does not worth a minute of your time.

July 23, 2005 @ 7:51 am | Comment

Yeah Gordon, Deal with Bingfeng like any other problem. Ignore it and it will go away.

July 23, 2005 @ 8:07 am | Comment


I just saw the remarks you left on that bingfeng ‘blog’. Everyone knows his defense of Commie PSB is full of s*it, but why did you bother to argue with him? He is a paid lapdog working for ChiComs, and your remarks only secure his job and even boost his pay.

Ignore him. I know all too well what kind of creature he is, and what social class he belongs to. Supporting ChiCom is his only solution. He does not worth a minute of your time.

Posted by bellevue at July 23, 2005 07:51 AM ”


bellevue, thank you for visiting Bingfeng Teahouse ๐Ÿ™‚

July 23, 2005 @ 8:21 am | Comment

“…and your remarks only secure his job and even boost his pay”


sorry bellevue, and thanks for leaving 3 new “comments” in Bingfeng Teahouse

July 23, 2005 @ 8:31 am | Comment


For some reason your comments always give me a good chuckle. I don’t know why, they just make me laugh.

None-the-less, I have my reservations about you which might be noted if you ever really took notice of the IP address recorded on your site whenever I leave a comment. It’s always the same computer from the same netbar.

As a rule of thumb, I don’t comment on Chinese hosted websites from my own computer. That’s a no-no in Gordon’s rulebook.

I’d advise others to take caution as well.

July 23, 2005 @ 8:37 am | Comment

Bing, Bingfeng, new post in Chinese on Berlin – if you could critique my chinese grammar and vocabulary I’d be very thankful.

July 23, 2005 @ 8:46 am | Comment

“As a rule of thumb, I don’t comment on Chinese hosted websites from my own computer. That’s a no-no in Gordon’s rulebook.”



spread the paranoid as you will

believe bellevue the troll as you will

all up to you

July 23, 2005 @ 8:50 am | Comment

To be honest, reading MAJ’s posts on CD made me sad, rather than sick. He is sick. His ‘love’ for China now reaches the degree of clinical significance. He is pathetic now. But he wasn’t back 10 months ago. MAJ was one of my favorite Marxists at that time. I enjoyed reading his lengthy pieces although I had a hard time to agree with any part of it, but it was still debatable.

I think richard shares at least part of the blame for his downfall. Look at the freefalling speed MAJ had experienced. He should be better accommodated here instead of being turn away and now baby-crying to the central propaganda department outlets.

In 30 years, MAJ’s homeland will be still waltzing (provided they get their immigration policy right), but the regime he has mistakenly loved will be no more. Before that, G-d save him, and his English.

July 23, 2005 @ 8:58 am | Comment


I don’t take bellevue’s word for anything. I don’t know him/her anymore than I do Madge. It’s just a rule of thumb. Call it paranoia if you like, it may well be, but I do tend to be overly cautious about things I do.

July 23, 2005 @ 9:07 am | Comment

Hey, just for the record, I did blog something positive about China today. It was a sad story with a a bitter-sweet ending.

I’d like to wish that people in my community would react the same way – It’s happend, but not too often.

July 23, 2005 @ 9:09 am | Comment

Yes I will accuse you of evil and fascist tendencies if you delete that first post by “pogai” calling us “sick idiots and losers”. I think this is protected by the US Constitution.
BUT if he calls us “fartypants”, then that would be going too far and you can delete it! The Supreme Court says some speech is unprotected, and it includes “fartypants”.

July 23, 2005 @ 9:11 am | Comment

Morning everyone. I deleted the personal information a commenter posted on Madge. We can’t descend to his level. There is simply no justifying putting personal details of people we don’t like on Internet sites. It’s truly a sick thing to do, and Uriel and Madge might get some infantile pleasure out of it, but once we let them set the bar it’s a sorry state of affairs.

It’s a real shame that because of people like these, none of us is safe. And they cloak themselves in a mantle of self-righteousness and public service. I could actually see these people writing to my employer and saying horrible things about me “just for the fun of it.” But not even they could stoop so low — could they?

Lisa, I totally agree that the Zhanglin comment was ironic — I read it last night and laughed out loud, as it seemed at first glance to praise Madge, but is obviously a stinging attack. Or at least tht was my take.

And Lisa, I also love your pointing out the goodwill generated by our last real president. Yeah, the poor guy screwed up and couldn’t control his compulsions (are any of us not guilty of the same at some points in our lives?) but he made America beloved. Now look where we are. You can really cry.

July 23, 2005 @ 10:38 am | Comment


Screw Clinton, he’s the one that sold us out to China. If it were up to me, he would be in Guantanamo.

As for the posting of Madges’ info, you have a good point.

July 23, 2005 @ 10:46 am | Comment

Things were a bit different then, and I strongly supported Clinton at the time. I really believed China was reforming politically, as did most of the world, which celebrated its selection for the 2008 olympics. I did too. If I knew then what I know now, I may have reacted differently.

Bush from day one was just as accommodating. This whole China Threat chorus just kicked into full gear last year; Bush has been as pro-China as Clinton.

Look at our foreign relations under Clinton and under Bush. Choose which you think was better. Choose which one elevated our stature in the eyes of the world, giving us the ability to negotiate in America’s interest. Your call. (But let’s not go on about this at length Gordon, as we know where one another stands and hopefully respect one another’s opinions even if we disagree.)

July 23, 2005 @ 10:59 am | Comment

You would put Clinton in Gitmo!? Yikes. The man IS america – poor destitute kid, beat to a pulp by his dad, grows up to become president of the US. Bush on the other hand is everything America was supposed to counter-act – shitty little kid with an intelligent and very powerful father, goes far through nepotism and is f*cking up our country.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:14 am | Comment

Hell, I’d give another line of coke to Bill. Sniff it up!

Btw, how many people died or dissapeared in the WWS?

Greatest president my ass!

Yes Richard, I respect our differences.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:21 am | Comment

The mission is futile – there is no arguing with Republicans, even good ones like Gordon. Clinton, evil. Reagan, godlike. The truth is we can find plenty of things to love and hate about most presidents. With Bush, we hit a troubling wall – there is just about nothing he has done that has helped America in any way. Quite the contrary. I dislike Reagan and Bush I, but there’s no doubt they did (some) good things for America. Bush II, I honestly can’t thnk of anything. There is nothing to recommend him to future generations, nothing even resembling a legacy. Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, 911, ignoring the warning that OBL was determined to attack America, intentionally letting Zarqawi go free to hype up the need to invade Iraq, pseudo-town halls with rigged questions, Valerie Plame — historians will have a field day.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:23 am | Comment

Laowai, if you think clinton was sooooo good, I suggest you read “the coming conflict with China”

As well as “Year of the Rat”.

Then come talk to me.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:24 am | Comment

WWS? Not sure what that is.

And don’t get started on cocaine! Chimpy McCokespoon refuses to answer questions about his, err, alleged coke use, remember? He won’t even say “I didn’t inhale” – the question is simply forbidden.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:26 am | Comment

And for something the three of us can all agree on, be sure to head over to Lisa’s site to read this superb post.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:29 am | Comment

White Water Scandal.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:34 am | Comment

Clinton is a character now, but during his term in office, he was a traitor.

ooooh..don’t get me started or they wil surely call this an anti- China site.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:36 am | Comment

Please, Gordon, refrain from using the word “traitor” in regard to our last great president; that’s the kind of thing Ann Coulter would say (or Michael Moore about Bush). Reserve that for the real traitors like Karl Rove.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:39 am | Comment

The WWS turned out to be a non-scandal. It was dismissed as meaningless, except by those who believe Clinton murdered Vince Foster with his bare hands.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:40 am | Comment

Well, I would say the last “great” President was FDR, and the successors have all been downhill since then.
On the other hand, I tend to think a US President is not supposed to be “great”. The job is not about greatness, it’s about public service.
The notion of “Great Leader” belongs to North Korea, not America.
We don’t need (and should not want) “great leaders” except in times of national crisis – like the Civil War or WW II – and for all the blather about how “911 changed everything”, this is NOT a time of national crisis – not even remotely comparable to WWII – and so all the talk about Bush as a “war President” is inflated nonsense.
All that said, I think Bush and Clinton both did more harm than good to the country.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:49 am | Comment

All this vehemence over one guy – I’m not saying Clinton was our last great president, but like Richard points out – those who hate clinton often love reagan, despite the lies, alzeihmers, Ollie North, etc. Why aren’t they at least consistent in hating them all? the past few presidents have all been pretty heinous. I don’t hate Bush, although I hate what he’s doing as president.

July 23, 2005 @ 11:50 am | Comment

Boy, I go to sleep, and see what I miss!

July 23, 2005 @ 12:02 pm | Comment

What, you went to sleep in 1992, and now you wake up to all this? Poor girl, you should have stayed in bed…. ๐Ÿ™‚

July 23, 2005 @ 12:06 pm | Comment

Hi Lisa.

Ivan, I’ll seriously consider the possibility of Clinton causing America more harm than good. But what’s the evidence?

It was Reagan himself who introduced a litmus test as to presidential success when he told the American people to look at their lives under Jimmy Carter and ask whether they were “better off today” than when Carter took office. Under Bush I and Bush II, the answer is a resounding No (certainly after Bush II’s first term), whereas when Clinton left office, very, very, very few would have said their lives were worse off than when he started. I was earning $40,00 when Bush1 left office and $110,000 when Clinton left. Of course, money isn’t the only measurement, but it sure is the most important to just about everybody (just ask anyone you know in China where money stands on their scale of priorities) – that’s what prosperity is, when we have enough money to live our dreams and feel secure. Peace, security, wealth, international prestige and global leadership – those were what we were left with when Clinton left office. Whether he was the direct cause of those things is debatable, but that those things were achieved under his watch is not.

I agree about FDR, by the way. Watching Bush slander him in Europe a few months ago was yet another outrage and a typical cheap shot at “liberals.”

July 23, 2005 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

Time zone, Ivan.

It’s the loss of international goodwill that really hurts – I like to travel, and now I feel like there are whole sections of the world where I will be greeted with hostility because of Bush’s presidency. And that just wasn’t the case under Clinton.

July 23, 2005 @ 12:14 pm | Comment

Time for this one to go to thread heaven. Let’s regroup above.

July 23, 2005 @ 6:53 pm | Comment

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