Chen Yonglin’s defection story holds up to scrutiny

In contradiction to earlier claims by Australian pompous asses diplomats, it now appears China hero Chen Yonglin did indeed make a formal request for asylum to Australia.

Hours after the defection of the Chinese consular official Chen Yonglin in May, Immigration officials passed a request for political asylum to the Foreign Affairs Department, a Senate committee was told yesterday.

The evidence contradicts the comments of the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, on June 8 in response to media questions about Mr Chen. “He didn’t lodge a formal application at all,” Mr Downer said.

The NSW director of the Immigration Department, Jim O’Callaghan, testified to a Senate foreign affairs hearing in Sydney yesterday that he received a letter from Mr Chen on May 26.

Mr O’Callaghan said he was surprised by the serious nature of the political asylum bid.

“On receiving the letter I could not recall when a person had sought political asylum at a DIMIA [Department of Immigration, Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs] office,” he said.

The Foreign Affairs Department in Canberra had been contacted about an hour later and was sent a fax copy of Mr Chen’s letter asking for asylum….Mr Chen was subsequently advised to pursue a request for a protection visa. However, a protection visa was not granted for another six weeks.

Mr O’Callaghan yesterday defended a telephone call to the Chinese consulate in Sydney to verify Mr Chen’s identity after he arrived at the Sydney office of the Immigration Department. He said Mr Chen gave permission for the official contact with the Chinese consulate.

But Greens Senator Bob Brown denied this yesterday. Mr Chen is scheduled to appear at a Canberra hearing of the committee today.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that turns out to be a most interesting hearing, and not to worry – I’ll be covering it as soon as I get the details.

Oh, and the same article seems to verify Chen’s other claims, abot Chinese embassy staff being used to harass and monitor the Falun Gong.

In other evidence yesterday, it was claimed that Chinese embassy officials who were allowed into Sydney’s Villawood detention centre in May asked four members of the Falun Gong meditation group about their religious affiliations.

A Falun Gong representative, John Dellar, presented statements from the practitioners about their questioning by the Chinese officials, who were introduced by detention centre staff as “working for” the Immigration Department.

“Based on the written statements we have received, the practitioners were afraid,” Mr Dellar said.

He said Australian officials had underestimated China’s persecution of Falun Gong members, which included individuals being forced to return from other countries.

Luckily Chen’s revelations should bring about some serious reform of this harassment. It’s about time.

The Discussion: 76 Comments

He said Australian officials had underestimated China’s persecution of Falun Gong members, which included individuals being forced to return from other countries.

WTF? Being forced to return from other countries?

July 25, 2005 @ 4:58 pm | Comment

You know, Richard,

If overseas wheelers are targeted by CCP, they can’t blame anybody else.

Since I came to England, I have been intercepted a dozen times on the street by Chinese who offer “leaflets” to me.

I used to simply transfer them directly into litter bin because I don’t give a sh*t to those wheeling rubbish and obviously faked atrocities allegedlly committed by CCP.

But things have changed recently. They probably realized that kind of rubbish has little effect on Chinese who know exactly their true colors back in China and are deeply disgusted by their extravagant NC-17 movie like facetious (thanks Richard for this word) atrocity display.

Now those new designed leaflets show you all the atrocities (real stuff this time) committed by CCP throughout its history, such as Cultural Revolution and TSM, though exaggerated rhetorically, and put their own stuff (atrocities towards wheelers) right at the end.

They know we Chinese don’t buy their sh*t. The problem is, what exactly they want to achieve?

They are not just practitioners of an excercise, a cult or a religion. They know they can’t live like that. To get attention and aid (from who?), they must keep fucking up CCP. Fucking up the CCP is the only legitimate and practical reason for them to exist. CCP’s harassment is exactly what they want.

-Most wheelers in China were susceptible ordinary people who were taken advantage by a clownish conman.
-Overseas Wheelers are hardly practitioners of anything but anti-CCP campaigners.
-Traitor Chen knows exactly what the wheelers are. I wouldn’t be such cynical if he had not used protecting wheelers as an excuse for his defection. (But I can understand. It’s obvious overseas wheelers are apparently more potent and promising as an anti-ccp tool than democratic activists)

BTW, they do best in hijacking communication satellite signals to disrupt tv programmes.

July 25, 2005 @ 5:26 pm | Comment


What makes you so sure the attrocities they report aren’t real?

What makes you so sure they aren’t fighting for freedom of persecution?

I’d agree with you that they are a cult, but what makes you think they are so dangerous when the only place in the wolrd that seems to think so is China?

July 25, 2005 @ 5:34 pm | Comment

I agree Bing that those wheeler folks are a major pest, and they can be very daring and creative. I wouldn’t want to be bothered by them, same as I don’t want to be bothered by Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon missionaires (though they can be really cute). But you know, I deal with them. Because it’s a small price to pay for living in a free society. As Gordon said, they are everywhere, and no one anywhere is worried about them except in China. Most of us just laugh at them and hope they’re having a good time.

July 25, 2005 @ 5:38 pm | Comment


“What makes you so sure the attrocities they report aren’t real?”

What makes you so sure what they said is true? They simply can say anything and don’t need to be held accountable.

“What makes you so sure they aren’t fighting for freedom of persecution?”

I know better than you what they were in China, which makes it hard for me to believe they are fighting for freedom of persecution for others in China.

“what makes you think they are so dangerous when the only place in the wolrd that seems to think so is China?”

They were dangerous in China, not only for individuals but the stability of the society. They are nuisance and pests abroad and a shame for us Chinese.

July 25, 2005 @ 5:48 pm | Comment


You were right. They are pests and won’t do much harm abroad. The only harm might be that as Chinese we feel ashamed by a group lunatics wearing ugly costumes (the funniest thing is they are increasingly intending to wrap themselves with alleged traditional Chinese culture) dispensing rubbish on the street. We really are. Not just my personal view.

July 25, 2005 @ 5:57 pm | Comment


With all due respect, your thoughts on the FLG lead me to believe that they are a product of the CCP’s propaganda.

People in Hong Kong don’t seem bothered by them.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:04 pm | Comment

What makes you so sure what they said is true? They simply can say anything and don’t need to be held accountable.
Posted by Bing

Ummmm… they have filed lawsuits in foreign countries against Chinese leaders. Lawsuits, usually, create an environment where claims are tested for their veracity.

It’s telling that China would use personal harassment and spying instead of lawsuits to silence and stifle FLG. {Especially since that route has been so effective for Scientology.}

July 25, 2005 @ 6:04 pm | Comment


“It’s telling that China would use personal harassment and spying instead of lawsuits to silence and stifle FLG. {Especially since that route has been so effective for Scientology.}”

Remember somebody sued Bush some time ago? Did Bush or his lawyer go there to defend himself?

The idea of judging foreign citizens with alleged crimes committed in other countries is simply ridiculous.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:14 pm | Comment


I repreated many times, wheelers outside China don’t do what they did in China.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:15 pm | Comment

Bing is a good guy, and his opinion is totally consistent with that of other Chinese people living either abroad or in China. I can’t fault him for that, but I do hope he is willing to listen to other viewpoints. (And I think he will.)

Also, we can’t deny that the FLG on the mainland have done lots of incredibly creepy things, and have elevated the concept of harassment to new levels. I have no sympathy for them, and when they clog streets or surround the houses of innocent people they should be arrested. But again, keep it in perspective. Surrounding a house with a mob sucks, but is it the end of the planet?

July 25, 2005 @ 6:22 pm | Comment


The wheeler thing may reflect some difference in mentality between West and China, actually not limited to China.

The example I want to give is about the decapitated Japanese hostage.

As my friends in Japan told me, the general sentiment towards that tragedy is people there feel ashamed. They think this poor man failed his country for not obeying warning given by government not going to Iraq. And even his family feel ashamed too.

Does that mean anything to you guys?

July 25, 2005 @ 6:32 pm | Comment

Not yet, BIng. Please explain further. It sounds very interesting and something difficult for the American conscience to comprehend.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:39 pm | Comment

I may have been a bit irrational sometimes in this wheeler issue.

Of course, there MUST be bad things committed to wheelers back in China. I have no doubt about and don’t excuse that.

Just feel difficult to not be emotional when discussing something I’m really disgusted of.

01:40am, I gotta go to bed. Good night guys.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:40 pm | Comment


They feel they lost face for their citizen being kidnaped and their government blackmailed and finally the hostage decapitated.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:42 pm | Comment

The concept of “Face” is not specific to Chinese.

Honestly, I, and many other Chinese, feel ashamed when seeing wheelers wearing ugly alleged Chinese dress harassing passers-by.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

I see, Bing. It is very hard for Americans to understand such a mentality. You know that, right? I can understand it because I have experienced the power that “face” has on many Asians. But most Americans will never understand such a thing.

July 25, 2005 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

As always, see you guys

July 25, 2005 @ 6:49 pm | Comment

In all my travels through China I have never witnessed any deviate acts being committed by FLG members and neither have any of the people I’ve talked to about it.

The only thing they can say is “this is what we have been told”.

The FLG is demonized by the government and crucified in the newspapers (only in China). So, since the majority of people in China are limited to the information they can read about this on the outside, they naturally assume it to be true – even though they have never personally witnessed anything.

July 25, 2005 @ 7:13 pm | Comment

I would feel a major loss of face for being associated with the government here, personally.

July 25, 2005 @ 7:33 pm | Comment

China really needs to rethink its policy on the FLG in the West – they must realise they’re turning a bunch of delusional idiots into martyrs, don’t they?

If they stopped harassing them, and started making fun of them instead, the FLG would be a non-issue in about a year. Oh, and spend a bit more time publicising exactly what it is the FLG believe (e.g. aliens in spaceships, ancient civilisations who discovered nuclear power, racial segregation in heaven, mixed-race kids being damned from birth …)

July 25, 2005 @ 7:47 pm | Comment

David, You don’t believe that ancient civilizations discovered nuclear power ? It’s no more strange than a virgin birth.It’s ALL wacko.

July 25, 2005 @ 8:32 pm | Comment

To whom who love trailor Chen: see below news from AUstralia Police Investigation result: Following the completion of those inquiries we’ve concluded there’s no substance to the allegation,” Agent Russ told the inquiry.
so there is no substance in Chen’s allegation about abduction. Do you still love, admire this Chen. Mr Richard And Mr Kevin?

An investigation into claims by a former Chinese diplomat that the Chinese government abducted a Victorian man involved only one interview, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) say.

Former political consul Chen Yonglin, who sought asylum in Australia in May fearing reprisals if he returned to China, said there was a network of 1,000 Chinese spies and some were involved in kidnappings.

Mr Chen specifically claimed a Victorian man, Lan Meng, 23, was captured and used by Chinese agents as bait in 2000 to force the return of his fugitive father Lan Fu, who was wanted over a $7 billion smuggling racket.

Media reports last month said that Lan Fu was subsequently jailed in November 2000.

Federal agent Jenny Russ told a Senate inquiry into Mr Chen’s protection visa application process on Tuesday the AFP had been asked by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet on June 9 to investigate the claim about Lan Meng.

Agent Russ said federal police spent almost a month tracking down Mr Lan, eventually finding him in Victoria where he was interviewed about the allegation on July 7.

Advertisement”Following the completion of those inquiries we’ve concluded there’s no substance to the allegation,” Agent Russ told the inquiry.

She said federal agents did not interview Mr Chen or anyone else about the matter.

Asked why Mr Chen was not interviewed, Agent Russ said: “In the circumstances Mr Chen was being interviewed by other commonwealth agencies – we were working on a referral from one of those commonwealth agencies.”

She said Mr Lan had requested the record of interview be kept secret, sparking questions from the committee about whether he feared reprisals.

“There could be a number of reasons why that person doesn’t want the statement released,” Agent Russ said.

“The person has been fairly open and frank and is involved in some processes here in Australia that the content of that statement may influence.”

Agent Russ said the AFP had not been asked to investigate Mr Chen’s claims of a Chinese spy ring in Australia, nor would it be as such matters were for ASIO to investigate.

Greens senator Bob Brown – who in June asked authorities to protect Mr Chen, his wife and six-year-old daughter while he sought asylum – asked Agent Russ whether she had been aware of his request for protection.

“We certainly have a witness protection program that is available and we go through a process but I’m not aware of us being asked to provide protection for Mr Chen,” she said.

Mr Chen is expected to appear at the inquiry on Tuesday afternoon.

© 2005 AAP

July 25, 2005 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

“Sing…….Sing a song……. make it simple to last your whole life long….Don’t worry that it’s not good enough for anyone else to hear….just Sing….Sing a song”

July 25, 2005 @ 9:18 pm | Comment

thanks sing. this is in fact old news that i have heard about before. yes, that is unfortunate, but much more of what he has said has turned out to be true. i don’t think there is any denying that. of course, i would expect you to focus much more closely on this incident than on anything else, as it confirms your preconcieved notion of this so-called “traitor” (or trailor, in your case).

July 25, 2005 @ 9:23 pm | Comment

Kevin,Be nice.

July 25, 2005 @ 9:25 pm | Comment

hey, that’s “Mr. Kevin,” buddy…

July 25, 2005 @ 9:28 pm | Comment

Sorry Mr. Kevin, Just remember to “Sing …Sing a song…”

July 25, 2005 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

As I read the statement about Lan Meng, it is not clear his father is in jail in OZ or in China, but either way why would the boy tell the truth if it would add to his father’s and his family’s difficulties in China. Secret interview he asked! Why then are we reading about it here and in OZ papers.

IMO the China media reporting was strictly hyped up propaganda about FLG. I flatly discount much of it as having anything to do with the truth. Yes, I think should FLG members in China may have died, but statistically that will be true of any group of people over a period of time. What proof was ever offered that these people died because of FLG’s teaching? It is all very suspicious of the CCP to label it a cult and try to destroy it, when the CCP is frighten and fighting for it own survival. The CCP efforts against FLG have I fear nothing to do with the truth, and all to do with CCP control.

After all, people in Europe and the US believe in witches and actually declare themselves to be witches. Did the US jail and try to destroy the Moonies, who have some strange believes, including Rev. Moon’s claim he is God or something like that. “Cults” can be tolerated if they remain open to public knowledge and observation. It is when they withdraw from society like the Jim Jones cult did and several others in recent times that strange unacceptable things happen.

I would ask those who believe FLG did “bad” things in China where they got their information? Is the source the Chinese government or CCP or some really independent source? I don’t mean from relatives, neighbors or former FLG member who are still under the Chinese thumb and might say anything to help themselves and the families.

July 25, 2005 @ 11:19 pm | Comment

Pete: Well said. I have been following the FLG movement for quite a few years now, though just out of interest and not in a very systematic way. I like your comparison of FLG with witchcraft because of the affinity of both with paganism. The doctrine contained in Li Hongzhi’s writings seemed to suggest that FLG draws heavily on the vocabulary and cultivation method of tradition Taoist religion, even though their aim of cultivation is very different from indigenous Chinese mysticism. Li Hongzhi claims an affinity with Mahayana Buddhist. But the connection, I believe, is dubious. I am not familiar with Scientology. So I can’t comment. But by and large we can see an attempt on Li’s part to draw influence from a variety of sources. There is also a genuine attempt to make sense of the different worldviews represented by different religious traditions.
FLG groups outside of China, as I can observed, have changed their practices quite substantially since 2000, probably as a result of persecution by the Chinese government. Their association now with anti-CCP groups is becoming obvious. I agree with Richard that some of the tactics that some FLG propaganda agents (such as the Epoch Times) are using at the moment are bordering on harassment. I’ve posted earlier on TPD about my experience of being harassed by the Epoch Times and I don’t intend to repeat the story here.

July 26, 2005 @ 12:31 am | Comment

OMG, i didn’t realize that Fa Lun Da F@@k comes back

if i have any chance to offer only one advice to Richard in my life time, that is – D-O N-O-T associate yourself or your political views with F@@K@L@G

btw, the recent spams sent by F@@K to my email box have reached a new height but their lying skills didn’t improve so much

July 26, 2005 @ 12:43 am | Comment

thanks for sharing, bingfeng! that was really enlightening!

July 26, 2005 @ 12:53 am | Comment

Kevin, can you please translate Bingfeng’s “English”?I can only understand Spanglish.

July 26, 2005 @ 1:16 am | Comment

“Kevin, can you please translate Bingfeng’s “English”?I can only understand Spanglish.

Posted by Xena Phobia at July 26, 2005 01:16 AM”


Ja Ja, Bingfeng, koennen Sie auf English sprechen? daaaaanke schoooooooen!

Amerika ueber Alles!

July 26, 2005 @ 1:40 am | Comment

ich liebe F@L@G

July 26, 2005 @ 1:42 am | Comment

Cults and new religious movements will become dangerous when they are driven underground. Apart from government sanctioned persecutions, public opinion and bias towards practitioners all contribute to driving these movements underground. A rational discussion of the nature of these movement is one of the more effective ways of overcoming bias and prejudice.

July 26, 2005 @ 1:46 am | Comment

Maricon Puto! seas buey!

July 26, 2005 @ 1:48 am | Comment

BingFeng , Pinche pendejo, guey!

July 26, 2005 @ 1:59 am | Comment


I personally have never seen someone die of FLG’s evil practice, though I had been pestered by them in China.

If 200 wheelers died out of 1.2 billion population, it would need some luck for you to come across one, wouldn’t it?

You don’t believe what they did in China for the lack of evidence.

There is evidence presented by CCTV, witness interview and pictures and stories. Of couse I understand you would believe nothing of it, and you have good reasons to do so.

The problem is, if you have doubt about it because of the notorious record of CCP, why would you give any credit to the propaganda of FLG, who was from the beginning built on deception and superstition.

The witnesses / victim interviews and pictures and stories were broadcast all over China by TV, radio and newspapers, is the government nuts enough to make such a big con in nowadays China where not every Chinese is an obedient sheep or a believer of governement.

Are you suggesting none of wheelers in China died of the practice of FLG?

Even though a few deaths could not justify the alleged torture towards other wheelers, they definitely justify the outlaw of this evil cult.

In US or UK, there might be groups like those wheelers who don’t do any harm and no one bothers them.

That’s understandable, because the governemtn doesn’t support them too.

The problem with wheelers is, when they were in China, they did something that was not tolerable by CCP, and even by other Chinese.

It’s ok for pepole in US to pester others or squat public areas without violating laws.

It’s NOT ok for them to do so without violating Chinese laws.

No matter how rubbish out law is, that’s law and everybody in China should abide by. If you cross the line and are persecuted, don’t blame others.

When they are abroad, supported by US government. They are not just a group of nuts minding their own business, but dedicated anti-CCP campaigers.

You know what’s wrong with general dedicated anti-CCP campaigners?

They are so dedicated that they become kind of fundamentalists who oppose and decry anything CCP does, no matter it is good or bad for Chinese. That is why they are such a nuisance for us Chinese.

July 26, 2005 @ 2:13 am | Comment

“I had been pestered by them in China.” Sorry Bing, what does this mean? Sounds pretty general. I have been coming here for a number of years, even before the ban, and was never pestered by them.
“is the government nuts enough to make such a big con in nowadays China where not every Chinese is an obedient sheep or a believer of governement?” Remember SARS? Heard accounts of the Korean War or WWII here? Remember the death of ZZY? There are countless examples… Come on Bing, you know there’s only one voice to be heard in the media here, so yeah, i don’t think there would be any problem with such an extravagant con, and I think it is a pretty regular occurrence.
“No matter how rubbish our law is, that’s law and everybody in China should abide by.”
As I remember, people have the right to assemble, according to the constitution, so which law was broken? Oh I forget, the right to assemble only applies if you are joining a govt-organized anti-japan protest. Please don’t bring laws into the argument, as laws here are, shall we say, not quite what they appear to be.
Bing, I really like the fact that you laid out an argument and spoke sensibly, unlike May, who went crazy and said I was the king of the shit club for my previous comments on chen. but I still have to say I think there are some holes in your arguments and I can’t agree with you.
also, i want to emphasize again that i am not a member of this group, and also find them awful bizarre, not unlike a certain fantabulist. but i am really disturbed by the arguments that people will come up with to justify their persecution. a human is always a human, even if they join a crackpot religion.

July 26, 2005 @ 4:06 am | Comment

if the persecution of flg was so widespread as claimed by them, maybe most chinese should have met/known/known of some of the persecuted. i personally know some former practitioners (one of which was my aunt) but i know none persecuted.

on the other hand, even if you don’t give credit to cctv evidences, many have had the experienced of being harassed by flg. i myself had mailbox (not only the e-mail but of the actual mailbox) jamed by flg leaflets and received telephone harassmetns both in office and at home back in beijing. many of my colleagues and friends have similar experiences.

here in the uk, i was also stopped by those people in streets bombarding me with leaflets and stories about persecution and lawsuits. pretty annoyed i am. and like a previous speaker, i feel ashamed.

as to lawsuits and petitions to un human rights agencies, i read some reports and found that even some human rights rapporteurs found some cases are not supported by evidence and some are debated by both parties. it seems that flg is using the mere number of cases against china, which, for me, is quite shameful.

as to chen, as one from the same college (what a shame) though a few years later, i know quite some people who were of the same grade with him, personally knew him and told me his stories about 1989 and his joining of foreign service had been lies. if any politicians want to make use of him, i really have nothing to say. but it would be really naive to believe in his stories.

two other points of personal opinions. first, i think people in two professions should never ever defect: intelligence and foreign service. if they do, they are rightfully called traitors by their previous countrymen. and if they want to emigrate, equit their jobs first. second, if chen is to give a list of chinese agents, which i think is fabrication, but if he does, he is killing those people. even what he already said and is saying hurt the chinese community in australia.

July 26, 2005 @ 4:54 am | Comment

death to F L G, death to Chen!!!
they are all shame of all our chinese!!

July 26, 2005 @ 8:30 am | Comment


I’m sure there must be a lot holes in my arguments. I’m not a PhD student in AntiWheeler.

At least I know many of you guys don’t like wheelers either and you just, as you said, don’t fancy the way they are treated for their belief.

That’s fair and I can understand, though we probalbely wouldn’t be able to convince each other.

One thing I’d like to point out is the fact that many luatics or nuts or extremists find the democratic West a haven and would love to take advantage of their tolerance of free speech / preaching / practice to fulfil their evil plots.

And for these overseas wheelers, they don’t bother us, we don’t bother them. As I said before, wish they live peace and happy, and thank your government looking after those scums (I seriously expect more and more Chinese asylum seeks convert to FLG) and sorry for wasting your tax payers’ money.

BTW it’s my pleasure to have sensible discussion with you guys.

July 26, 2005 @ 8:58 am | Comment

ko, that is kind of extreme, don’t you think? Wishing death on anyone is kind of rude.

July 26, 2005 @ 9:19 am | Comment

Fat Cat:
Have there been any major religions that were fully accepted by their community of origin when developing and especially by the existing power structure? I don’t think so. I remember something about Moses having disbelievers. After all it is a pretty weird idea that Moses went up a mountain (all alone mind you) and a god spoke to him. I think that Joseph Smith of the LDS also was all alone when he receive the gift from a god.

But let’s look at Christianity. Wasn’t Jesus persecuted? Wasn’t the belief in its formative years akin to a cult as viewed by disbelievers in Jesus’ message and by the powers? I think that the early believers of Jesus for the first several hundred years were severely harassed and persecuted by the Romans. Yes, “thrown to the lions” for entertainment. The CCP has not been that barbaric to the FLG believers, but still if some of the reports are accurate as to some of the CCP persecution of mainland FLGers it is barbaric enough to hold CCP up to world scorn and shame. I do not think the Chinese should at all consider the FLG are shameful. That kind of talk is to me just the weakness of some Chinese who listen too much to and believe the CCP propaganda.

The above statement is some history as I am aware of the development of various religions. Maybe, just maybe FLG will be the next great religion.

There is nothing in this world that says beliefs or religions have to start out being accept by all people or that they have to be fully formed and conform to commonly held ideas of the time. The human belief system can be strange, qi guai. What you might not believe in, may be fully acceptable to others. What seems to happen is that people have beliefs because they gain some benefit from them. Take for instance, people who believe in the CCP, they do so because the CCP benefits those individuals in one or more ways out of a myriad of possible ways. In the old days, people believed the CCP would make life better for the whole of the Chinese peasantry. Now a days, I would say no small part of the CCP membership believe in it because it will bring them power, privilege and lucre, but some still probably believe out of blind idealism. So too, people who believe in so-called cults or religions get something out of it. Maybe you can call it spiritual uplift. Who are you or I to say that is wrong for someone to have that belief.

Yes I know about the allegations of criminal conduct and bad advice, but an effective government can deal with that without trying to destroy that entire belief system. If that belief system is bad to the bone, it will destroy itself.

I don’t give credit to FLG for what it says, whether beliefs or propaganda. I just know the CCP has lied about FLG to get the Chinese to fear and hate it, BECAUSE the CCP sees it as a challenge to its desired total control of the Chinese mainland nation and people.

Deception and supersition. You may as well say that about the CCP.

Big con. From my experiences in China I would say the big con works as a vast majority of the population of China are uneducated or relatively uneducated and accept the information from the CCP at face value on many issues.

Witneses and interviews. I would not believe those talking people in general, unless I could talk with them outside China where they and their families would be free and safe from CCP threats, persecution and harassment.

Deaths. I am not saying any such thing. I simply don’t know. Bing I hate to say this about something you have great feelings about, but for me and many foreigners, the CCP and the government simply have no, zero,
credibility. That is because it lies so much and even when some statement might not be a lie on an important issue the truth is not told. SARS, the bird deaths at Qinghai Lake, AIDS. In the real world outside of China truth has a measurable quality, something that in general is lacking in the Chinese system. So, no I don’t believe what the CCP is trying to push on the Chinese public and on to the world. When I first read the China Daily about the “bad FLG” I didn’t believe it then and don’t now. It seemed so much in character like the lies Bush has been telling to start and keep on with the Iraq War.

Evil cult. Who says it is an evil cult? The CCP. It might be weird, it may be different, but evil just because the CCP says so. The CCP is in no position to fairly judge and say it is evil, as CCP is self-interested and clearly wants to destroy the FLG.

You try to talk for all mainland Chinese. I don’t think you have license to say even a majority of Chinese care anything about FLG much less object to it. I personally know some Chinese who do not.

Some unsolicited advice, as long as you are in the UK why don’t you put your political beliefs aside and learn how many billions of people live pretty well without the need for a CCP telling them how to think, censor their speech and otherwise be obnoxious.

This may seem contradictory to you Bing, but I value your comments here and appreciate your courage and your belief in your country.

July 26, 2005 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

To all.
Full disclosure. I am not a member of FLG or have I read any of its literature although in HK once I was given some. Also I am not a believer in god.

July 26, 2005 @ 12:08 pm | Comment

If Li Hongzhi and Chairman Mao got into a professional wrestling match, who would win?

July 26, 2005 @ 12:39 pm | Comment

Lihong Zhi didn’t even finish elementary school, used to live in a very poor part of the city. Go ahead, believe what you want, blind leads blind, you all will get somewhere. Even in great Coeur d’Alene area of North Idaho/ White Idaho, FLG was part of the annual parade, it mainly consists of white people though.

July 26, 2005 @ 1:11 pm | Comment

Ivan, I can’t believe you made such an absurd comparison between Mao and Li hong zhi. You might want to look into how you can become the next “Lihong zhi” in next 20 years. I will be the first follower.

July 26, 2005 @ 1:30 pm | Comment


“Some unsolicited advice, as long as you are in the UK why don’t you put your political beliefs aside and learn how many billions of people live pretty well without the need for a CCP telling them how to think, censor their speech and otherwise be obnoxious.”

I dream of a democratic China like UK and that’s why I came here in the first place. The problem is I live in reality.

July 26, 2005 @ 2:25 pm | Comment

if the persecution of flg was so widespread as claimed by them, maybe most chinese should have met/known/known of some of the persecuted. i personally know some former practitioners (one of which was my aunt) but i know none persecuted.

That’s the main problem I have with FLG propaganda. If the FLG’s allegations about tens of thousands of people murdered and millions tortured and mutilated, then how come it didn’t happen to anyone I know? What the FLG says is so divorced from reality that it’s hard to believe they are not purposefully lying. Constant and organized lying reflects badly on any group of people, and I think this is the reason why so many overseas Chinese who were initially sympathetic (as I was) to the FLG are now disgusted by them.

July 26, 2005 @ 2:38 pm | Comment

Do they really say millions were tortured and tens of thpousands killed? I’ve herd allegations of torture and murder, but not such high numbers. So bottom line, you’re main problem with the FLG is they exaggerate? If you want to see “constant and organized lying,” check out the CCP’s mnotnhly statistical reports. It sucks that the CCP does this, but I believe in living and letting live; I would never persecute them — the FLG or the CCP — for telling tall tales.

July 26, 2005 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

Yes, it’s absurd to compare Li Hongzhi with Mao. As far as I know, Li Hongzhi didn’t launch any Cultural Revolution and lead China into chaos, like Mao did.

July 26, 2005 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

Compared to Li Hongzhi, Mao was a far more successful leader of a psychotic destructive cult.

July 26, 2005 @ 3:18 pm | Comment

anti-ccp, why? tell me which party in the world is perfect. at least current CCP have helped 400 million CHinese out of proverty, and average CHinese’s life is getting better day by day!! comparing with India, our CCP goverment is doing much better job!!!! I support you CCP, I love you CCP!!!

July 26, 2005 @ 3:48 pm | Comment

It’s true that hundreds of millions of Chinese have risen out of poverty since Mao died in 1976. It’s also true that the CCP plunged millions of Chinese INTO poverty through the 1950s and 60s.
So it seems, all the CCP has really done since 1976, has been to stop creating poverty.
Oh and Hiter also raised millions of Germans out of poverty – aside from the millions he killed, that is.

July 26, 2005 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

Ivan, How many more Iraqians have to be killed in the name of “insurgent” before Bush leads Iraq out of poverty?

July 26, 2005 @ 4:32 pm | Comment

What did the CCP do, aside from lift the evil yoke of oppression laid down by Chairman Mao? The hard-working Chinese people made themselves successful once they were allowed to, and the CCP just sat back and collected your taxes and fucked you over.

July 26, 2005 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

So bottom line, you’re main problem with the FLG is they exaggerate? If you want to see “constant and organized lying,” check out the CCP’s mnotnhly statistical reports.

Of course the CCP also lies and exaggerates (in regard to FLG and many other subjects). Like Hou Dejian says about the Tiananmen movement in 1989, the truth is powerful enough, there is no need to lie. What FLG does with its propaganda put it on the same level as the CCP, which is why I think the FLG is no better than the CCP and this whole CCP vs FLG thing is really a dog bites dog affair with neither side being worthy of any sympathy or support.

July 26, 2005 @ 6:59 pm | Comment

Hui Mao, I’ll almost agree, but not quite. I can’t stand either group, bt let’s face it, the FLG has way less blood on its hands and never covered up an AIDS epidemic.

July 26, 2005 @ 7:16 pm | Comment

this blog sucks, anti-ccp? sounds like the subsidiary of the F LG Epoch Times. people makes mistakes, same as parties. it is unfair to compare CCP in the 50 and 60’s to current CCP( CHinese government). you are talking CCP, infact it is Chinese government. I trust in our Current Chinese government( current CCP), they have done great job. I don’t understand why you foreigner hate our CCP so much, it is not your business anyway, and you are not qualified to criticise our CCP goverment while your government launch a war without justifying reason and killing innocent people. Long Live Chinese CCP, I love you!!!

July 26, 2005 @ 8:26 pm | Comment

Darling Ko, if you think this blog sucks there are many others to visit. I’d like you to stay and dig around and comment more, but I do NOT want you to feel uncomfortable. This is a free forum and you can say whatever you like. Maybe you aren’t used to that. Anyway, thanks for visiting and I hope you can make this a regular stop in your daily routine.

July 26, 2005 @ 8:36 pm | Comment

Good morning everyone. It seems that this debate has become rather lively during my absence.
Pete, I agree with all you said about the history of religion and persecution. Like you, I’m no FLG supporter and I have some Christianity training when I was young. But basically I’m not affiliated to any religious groups. Studying China’s past and present is a part of my job. The point that I’m trying to make is that the CCP policy of intolerance towards the FLG, from my observation, has changed the nature of the movement. Personally, I don’t think that this is a good policy. But I’ll keep on watching.
Ivan, I like your comparison of Li Hongzhi and Mao. It makes a lot of sense. Hui Mao, good point too.

July 26, 2005 @ 8:44 pm | Comment

Are you a member of the CCP? have you ever thought that if there was no CCP at all after Mao passed away that China would be way better off than it is even now? I think you will find that the CCP doesn’t change even more radically than in the last 20 years it will become even more of an anchor tied to the Chinese economy and the people slowing possible advancements more than currently.

CCP vs the Chinese government. When has the Chinese government ever done anything not approved by the CCP? The ultimate power in China clearly resides in the CCP.

Even though I disagree with you on this issue, I am glad you are here and willing to give us you opinions. I look forward to see more of you and your ideas.

July 27, 2005 @ 1:43 am | Comment

Bad proof reading.

The first paragraph, 4th sentence, should read: …you will find that IF the CCP doesn’t….”

July 27, 2005 @ 3:44 am | Comment


“have you ever thought that if there was no CCP at all after Mao passed away that China would be way better off than it is even now? ”

This assumption doesn’t really make sense. It’s not that Chinese invented communism and volunteered to be the guinea pig and would like to stick to it forever.

Have you ever thought if British never dumped opium to China, Japan never invaded China or Russia never helped the independence of Mongolia?

There is no result without cause.

Many of us, Chinese, don’t disagree with your “western values”, freedom and democracy. What we do disagrree is the way we as Chinese should behave before reaching that goal.

Last night from the BBC Newsnight, an interviewee from US said something when commenting on the UNOCAL bid.

… other Asian countries grew up democracy when their GNI per capita reached a certain level, to which China still has a very long way to go, …
(something like that, I can’t recall the exact sentence)

Does it mean anything to you?

July 27, 2005 @ 5:29 am | Comment

is democracy really that good? just look at India. India is the largest democratic country, but which country is doing better job in term of improving their people better living standard? Go home comparing the numbers between China and India, you might have different idea. you western man just think your democracy is that good, I don’t agree it will suit with CHina’s current situation. look at Russia, they wanted to be more democratic, look their country seperated parts by parts. I have lives several democratic contries for years. I believe current CHina’s system is good, and I believe CHina will become more and more democratic “oin your term” when it is ready.

July 27, 2005 @ 10:20 am | Comment

There is no doubt, real democracy is really good.

There is no doubt, China’s system is really bad.

The only problem is priority.

Taiwan is the best example for China to go for democracy, though there are still huge differences between the two:

-The dictatorship of CCP is far worse than that of KMT.

-Taiwan doesn’t have separatism issue except mainland China.

-Taiwan doesn’t have significant ethnic issue.

-Taiwan has the full support from western countries in terms of economy.

So the road to democracy for China is much more difficult. But that is the destiny and I believe some of leaders are not blind to what happened in Taiwan.

In terms of the future status of Taiwan, I don’t think they have to be part of China, as long as they agree to abondon their army and allow China to have millitary bases on it.

China’s strategic rivals / enemies are Russia and Japan.

We don’t have to bother managing Taiwan. All we need is a wide open gate to the deep ocean of pacific.

July 27, 2005 @ 1:46 pm | Comment

You’re a smart guy, BIng.

July 27, 2005 @ 2:01 pm | Comment


Just found out that in your Chinese version of that statement, your blog is called peking roast duck, instead of peking duck.

Can’t bear it. I’d better go cooking right now.

July 27, 2005 @ 2:12 pm | Comment

Blame Martyn! 🙂

July 27, 2005 @ 2:16 pm | Comment

This problem is, some Chinese guys might think there could be something wrong with QuanJuDe Peking Roast Duck if they were hot-headed and couldn’t bother finishing the statement.

“Hey, mom this is Bing, I heard some laowai talking about Peking Roast Duck, and there seems to be something wrong with it, take care, ta ta”

Be careful, their lawyers give you a phone call.


July 27, 2005 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

Quanjude is a rip-off place. But they have very nice greeters. Just what I need when I go to a restaurant, 25 grinning greeter girls.

July 27, 2005 @ 2:28 pm | Comment

can’t u brainwashed westerners see tht he’s just a young Hu Jintao clone…note those glasses! That hair.

Now that he’s been successfully embedded in OZ,CCP will manufacture and plant more Cheng Yonglins inthe fascist Anglo-Saxon countries, in readiness for the day that CCPwill take over
the world
Chen YOnglin is just one of the 5th column that wil rise like aliens in War of the World, with the battlecry: Ju Guo Wan Sui!

July 30, 2005 @ 2:03 am | Comment

a little madness

July 30, 2005 @ 11:03 am | Comment

a real story of my girlfriend who is a practioner of FLG in China. She was a lecturer of a university but her class has never been an attractive one. She practied FLG in 1997, and was sent to correction center in 2001 because she joined to against government. She fasted herself there and was sent back home soon. Then she started her long holiday at home, no work no payment but the university gave her some welfare to care her. After 2 years leave, she was back to work at the same university but as a librarian. She cannot be a lecturer anymore.
I understand and agree with Bing, FLG did nothing good to Chinese but a instability to public.

September 7, 2005 @ 5:53 pm | Comment

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