Many foreigners find China “enchanting”:

“My reminiscence: For such a lovely river, its name was mystifying—’Cape Fear’—and that the only thing to FEAR on those enchanted Summer nights was that the magic would end…and REALITY would come crashing in….”

REALITY = Chinese nationalism/violent, bloody history.

The personal attack on Wang is certainly very wrong. She surely have her right to her opinion. She

The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks? Her CD was banned from radio station, destroyed publicly for her criticism on war, i.e., to invade another country.

Chinese has a strong sense of vicitimhood. Recent westerm media report certainly confirmed their feeling. Psychologically many people are angry at main stream media, but can not do anything about it. Wang's association with Tibet independence makes her an easy target.

I'm with you on this one 100%, Richard. Growing up in Quebec has given me a profound distaste for this sort of nationalist nonsense and witch-hunting. Regardless of the context, it's always scary to see someone get so ostracized/threatened for the sole reason of having their own opinion which deviates from the mob-accepted 'truth'.

Let's crucify the peacemakers, what a great idea! That will sort everything out. I don't (Heart) blind nationalism, that's for sure.

One of the interesting dimension of Chinese mob psychology is immaturity.

One theme of mind control techniques is to induce regression in the subject, i.e., revert the subject to a childlike state to make the subject more subject to mind control.

The CIA's experiments in mind control grew out of studies of returning American POWs from the Korean War.

hey bob
I've seen the same msg posed by you on comment section of other blogs. You should get a life or write something intelligent. Peace out!

BOB, you're a fucking retard. Try not to get ahead of yourself.

The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks?

What happened to the was also wrong. But there is a fundamental difference: the Dixie chicks were celebrities before their lead singer made her remark a concert in Britain, just prior to the invasion. If you are a celebrity, sometimes publicity can turn against you in unfortunate ways, especially in times of war.

The case of Ms. Wang is entirely different. She is a just a private individual, who wanted to initiate a dialog, because of this she and her family was singled out for persecution. This is an element of brainwashing, as defined by OED.

The systematic and often forcible elimination from a person's mind of all established ideas, esp. political ones, so that another set of ideas may take their place; this process regarded as the kind of coercive conversion practised by certain totalitarian states on political dissidents.

Oh, I have been aware of this incident for a while, but I didn't realize that this piece of news was carried in the NYT. If this stays in public attention, the implications are huge. Make no mistake about it.

One of those unforgettable moments in recent Chinese history is when the anti-Japanese mob in Shanghai surrounded that girl in her Japanese-made car and beat the car up while degrading her.
At some point, those who engage in these sorts of actions (and it is certainly not everyone, but far too many) will need to learn that "loving China" is not simply harassing, threatening, and silencing those who do not accord with their officially-cultivated image of "Chinese."

Excellent comment Richard. Your conviction shines through.

In 1989 there were a lot of mainland Chinese students at the university in my hometown in America. 6/4/1989 caused me to get involved with a lot of those students who protested China's killing action of those few days in Beijing. What is relevant about that to the present day protest of the current group of Chinese students is that those students in June 1989 were being contacted by the Chinese government's student minders in the U.S. I have no doubt that the current Chinese student protests were at least encouraged by Chinese government men/woman if not supported and somewhat directed.

What is ironic and probably not even considered by those Chinese students is that they were allowed to protest in the US, whereas I doubt very much several hundred foreign students would be allow to demonstrate and protest on university campuses in China if the protest was against something the Chinese government favored even protest about anything at all.

Richard and others have it right, a lot of immature reaction, but I really have no doubt the Party and /or government was behind the protest in some way.

When Tibetan mobs burned and looted and murdered Han shopkeepers in a bloodthirsty frenzy, it's no herd mentality and it's justice rightfully done due to historical grievances. When American mobs burned CDs of Dixie Chicks and threatened them with their lives, it's no herd mentality and it's patriotism rightfully dispensed. When Chinese netizens voiced their strongest condemnation on the ulterior motives behind the recent pro-Tibet or anti-China remarks from Mr. Cafferty and Ms. Wang, it IS herd mentality and nationalism in its ugliest form. Unbelievable.

Richard, good post,

Now do you see why I mention Falun Gong a lot? The regime has enough mind control and has spread the religion of communism so thoroughly that it can mobilise the masses to violently enforce the party line and that is what the party's plan is, to mobilize and control the masses in patriotic terrorism.

The cultural revolution is certainly NOT OVER I am afraid to say, now that it is coming to light because of recent events that are being treated news worthy enough to talk about, things will hopefully take their natural course and be sorted out in the end.

I agree with you Richard that the Chinese people are so much better than this, they really are, all they have to do is realize it.

@Steve
"The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks? Her CD was banned from radio station, destroyed publicly for her criticism on war, i.e., to invade another country. "
I agree that immaturity is not limited to Mainland Chinese, but the Dixie Chicks are a really bad example. They weren't banned, they just pissed off their fan base by expressing politically disagreeable views, and the fans stopped consuming their product, so radio stations stopped carrying it. There was nothing 'wrong' about it.

Better comparisons in the western world might be some of the nationalist anti-immigration skinhead outfits in England in the 80s, or the guys who cruise around Tokyo in vans to protest things they see as unpatriotic, like this Yasukuni Shrine documentary that's just come out.

This Tibet, Uighur, Olympic torch run stuff is really doing the world a great favour: the opportunity to really know and understand what China and Chinese are about. What they expect of us. What they are really like in various situations. How they think. How they come to conclusions. What their values are. What their priorities are. Now that we are equipped with the real first hand observation knowledge - of course, they will continue to scream that westerners can never understand them - we are now much better equipped to deal with China, and CHinese amongst us.

It is great we have this opportunity, and the medium - internet, blog, posting, etc. - to see what China and Chinese are really like. China is not a mystery any more.

@Bill

Do not judge 1.3M just through some outrageous individuals.

May I remind you that Ms Wang is also Chinese?

Actually you will never understand China because your religious intolerance, racial bigotry, and perhaps stupidity prevent you from seeing anything outside of what you want to see.

Go ahead and force all Chinese people to be nationalists, that'll be a great thing for you I'm sure.

Actually, most Iraq War supporters' responses to the Dixie Chicks' anti-Bush comments were a really good example of a mature response to public statements they didn't like. There were a few death threats, and a few angry protests, but for the most part people just stopped buying Dixie Chicks CDs. This should be compared to the Cafferty comments. Not everybody has to like or agree with what he said, or even continue to listen to him. Just stop watching CNN.

Poor Chinese, they are all "forced to be nationalists" by those racist foreigners...

@E

Is dat sum sarcasm?

lol, the funny thing is that I can't actually tell...

Ferin, who are you talking to?

Kevin, Pete, etc. - thanks for the excellent comments. I so agree.

@Some guy

Its sarcasm alright.. Chinese people are being "forced to be nationalists" by foreigners (according to ferin) in the same way Germans were "forced to be nationalists" because of the Treaty of Versailles which "victimized" Germans which was of course masterminded by the Jews who wanted to keep Germany down.

See any similarities?

It is great we have this opportunity, and the medium - internet, blog, posting, etc. - to see what China and Chinese are really like.

Poor Chinese, they are all "forced to be nationalists" by those racist foreigners...

Oh those poor white foreigners, they get a bad rap even though they never make mistakes and are never racist.

See any similarities?

Oh yes, lets compare China to Nazi Germany once again because you're a retard.

There's NOTHING about China now or at any point in time that is or was like Nazi Germany, you brainless fuckwit.

We need more people like Grace Wang to get a dialogue started here in the US. These chinese students have some issues and points of view that should be expressed. The Torch Relay protests are insulting and unproductive. Listening to these chinese students say their point of view and then getting them to listen to the Tibetans in exile and also peole of the west explain another view of history would go a lot farther to improving things for tibetan than a boycott. In fact the CCP would be concerned if the chinese students did start participating in an exchange with the western media, and the tibetans. More might wonder about their governments policy in Tibet.

@richard
"Ferin, who are you talking to?"

I think our ferin is right now in one of his "ferin modes"

Like a bull crashing on the fighting arena. ;-)

What's really sad and disgusting is white people using their previous human rights abuses as political and economic leverage.

As if they didn't get enough joy and profit out of gassing Jews and liquidating entire continents of people.

If the fenqing morons wanted to drag you through their own feces I guess they've succeeded, congrats, a lot of them look like total douches now.

Who need to grow up? I think it is NYT. Let the media distortion go on!
How representative those violent comments are? Are they just some emotional rants? or they represent the real motivations of committing a serious crime against Ms. Wang? Don't you see the black, Jews, Asians, Latinos and gays are being insulted every single day on American forums? I personally don't take those seriously, and apparently NYT think it is ordinary and worthless to report too! But, but NYT think the similar comments against Ms. Wang shall become an extraordinary story! They knew Richard just love to read it!!!
How come NYT has never tried to write an objective coverage on the idiot CNN's commentator. We all say CCTV is a garbage. But I have never seen any host or guest in its program cursing American or US government with insulting words like that.
Again this is just one of many many reports, stories, and commentaries that has been used to fit the western portrait of ordinary Chinese people by the western media. I hope there is a better word to describe this instead hypocrisy.
Don't you all realize this is where Westerners and Chinese start to distrust each other? After reading and listening stories like this for years, is it surprising that we are thinking the opposite way almost constantly?

By the way, I have no problem with Ms. Wang's freedom of speech, and I oppose any insulting comments again her. But I do have problem with NYT's reporting style. Very ill!

>As if they didn't get enough joy and profit out of gassing Jews and liquidating entire continents of people.

You can't say things like this and expect people to take you seriously. I'm not suggesting that anyone should take ME seriously either, but this is some awesome trolling. 9/10

ferin, you know I give you a lot of latitude here, just as I give your twin brother nanhe. But can you please stop being an asshole? You are not stupid. Why are you pretending to be?

@ferin
Yes, my country greatly profited from being invaded and raped by Germany. Idiot.

I was thinking about an entry on this myself - richard got there first, though.

Yes, this really takes the biscuit. I do fear that the current younger generation(s) in China are too angry and irrational when it comes to this sort of thing. To make death threats against someone because they don't follow the majority is just ludicrous. This really, really does not do any good for China. As I said on the globalvoices for this, currently China is rising as a perceived "top threat" in global opinion, though mostly on trade and the environment - human rights to a lesser extent. But if we see this sort of thing happening time and time again, where Chinese harrass others just because of their views (especially if in other countries), then that's going to shift to a threat on security, which will lead to China's isolation.

It has been suggested that the FBI will look into this matter, as some college students may have (from a legal POV) been inciting others. If true I hope they do investigate as full as possible, as even if some of them may regret what they did in retrospect they knew full well what would happen if they published contact details for her and her family.

I also hope that the Chinese authorities make it plain that they won't allow for any reprisals. If they try to sit on the fence then that will be yet another example of their moral bankruptcy.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of bored trolls like nanhe making 90% of those death threats in feigned broken English.

Yes, my country greatly profited from being invaded and raped by Germany. Idiot.

Oh please. Here you are trying to extract the last possible shreds of political and economic leverage from European atrocities and now you're pulling the victim card?

Hey, the victim card is trendy these days. Ask any black man (slavery), white man (affirmative action), Chinaman (opium wars, etc), Korean (Japanese occupation, etc). Everyone is doing it, why can't E?

This is not an isolated incident, unfortunately. I know of a professor threatened with death for holding a discussion on Tibet. The respondents on the listserv added "support!" (an awkward English version of the Chinese "ding!")
While there are many Chinese students opposed to this sort of thing, they also happen to be those generally uninvolved in the Chinese Student Associations' listservs, which take the idea of "preaching to the choir" to whole new levels. When I signed up for my university's Chinese student association forum, I had to agree to a number of conditions, including things like "do not make comments that tarnish the motherland's socialist system," "do not make inflammatory comments that encourage splittism." It's unfortunate that such limitations and exclusions are perpetuated even outside of China, and this is something that I hope can change through more liberal-minded students' efforts.

He kinda steps out of his bounds. It's like a black man going to China and blaming his problems on the white man, and then going on an ahistorical, ignorant rant on an internet forum.

This is not an isolated incident, unfortunately. I know of a professor threatened with death for holding a discussion on Tibet.

They should start a police investigation.

By the way, does anyone know where the translation "splittism" comes from? You would have thought "seperatism" sounds more natural and appropriate. I suppose it's pretty-well established now, a lot like "turmoil" became after that unforunate 6.4 business.

Grace Wang, dialog and the road map to independence

The story of Grace Wang illustrates the need for diverse media in China. Now only the government and the bloggers have a say. People are easily manipulated to overreact to trivial incidents.

On the other hand, the young woman is not the only person who thinks that a dialog with the Dalai Lama can solve the Tibetan problem. People in the West often accuse China for not entering a dialog even though the Dalai has given up independence and is only seeking a middle way.

The Dalai does not like to talk about the details of his
middle way. The Western media fail again. They do not bother to find out what this middle way is. Thankfully, Robert Thurman, a close friend of the Dalai and the person who coined the phrase ''baby seals'' to describe the Tibetans, has an article on Newsweek Magazine:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/129619

He tells us what the middle way is:

First, China must double the size of Tibet. The
areas that have seen Tibetan inhabitants should be returned to Tibet, even though the majorities of the populations in these areas are Hui and Han, not Tibetan.

Second, expel the large colonies of Han Chinese
in these areas. Never mind that people have the right
to live everywhere in their own country.

Third, remove the People's Liberation Army from the the enlarged Tibet. Tibet will be a land of peace, as the Dalai often said.

After these steps are completed, China will hold an internationally monitored plebiscite to determine the permanent future status of Tibet.

If the Western media care to expose these demands
in the Dalai's pursuit of the middle way, instead of repeating his empty talk of seeking genuine autonomy, people like Grace will see that his middle way is just a road map to independence. They
will understand why China does not want t to enter
a dialog with him to discuss these terms.

@ferin

There's NOTHING about China now or at any point in time that is or was like Nazi Germany, you brainless fuckwit.

Not even the Blue Shirts movement? Or the Cultural Revolution?

The Cultural Revolution and the Holocaust are only similar in the fact that they killed around 11 million people.

It takes different precedents to lead up to one or the other. I'd say Nazi Germany and Mao's CCP are about equally evil. How is it helpful to bring that into this discussion?

Here I'll play it out for you:

W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA
W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA
W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA

Gratifying.

Ferin, please stop, okay. You've already derailed the thread. I am requesting politely that you don't force me to ban you again.

Hey cheer up Grace Wong, its easy to get along with commie masses, just kill lots of people and lie gleefully through your teeth, the more you lie, the more patriotic you will prove yourself to be. If she was in China, she wouls spend some time in a transformation camp and come out a filthy harmonious spychopath, a true patriot, like these harmonious North Koreans who live their whole lives to worship Kim Jong and Hu Jintao, wow, how could the Chinese civilizations be transformed like this? It really is depressing but I know whats gonna happen, the worlds people will give their support to the dissidents and the dissidents will one day have the freedom to finally speak, and truth will be more prevalent in all societies...

http://tinyurl.com/5z5uu8

Hu Jintao visits North Koreans, CRAZY! it might look festive and nice. They'd bring polpot regime bck if they could...

Please excuse me if I sound angry, I am moody today...

Hi all,
first of all I - a laowei - love China and Chinese people, but both sides in general need to learn some important things about each others values, if we are interested in a dialogue:

The Chinese for example need to learn that there is such thing as positive critics. Criticising does not always mean, you despise the thing you criticise, but you love it and want it to become better. It is a sign you actually care.

Second, there are more that two sides: if for example an American criticises the Chinese army killing Tibetan monks, it does not mean that by saying this the US is being in Iraq torturing is just and right, because he could mean that actually both are wrong and need to be criticised!

Thx for reading and good luck Grace Wang.

PS: Saying we will never ever understand Chinese totally denies any possibility of a dialogue.

Some fascinating stuff written by one of Wang's dorm mates, some of which was written before the whole Tibet brouhaha:

http://happinessguaranteed.blogspot.com/

I would say she is a just a weirdo who epitomizes marvellously her likes in the Free Tibet movement. She may need some help.

NYT let us down again. Why didn't they dig just a little deeper?

Well, I agree personal attacks on her are wrong, because, in addition to certain laws and principles blahblahblah, you simply should not take a psycho so seriously.

I'm sure she isn't the first Chinese person to be in the Free Tibet movement either, morons come from all over the world.

So a bunch of guys on the internet made some repugnant threats and all of a sudden a nation of 1.3 billion people has "willingly surrender its critical faculties". I don't know, that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. Not that I'm condoning extreme nationalists, but I think one should take internet comments with a grain of salt. China has its fair share of nationalists, but not particularly more then many other countries. In any case I just want to mention that saying a country needs to "grow up" or else it "will be doomed to wallow in impotent and pointless rage" primarily because of internet comments probably comes off as bit condescending. There's some truth in that comment but nonetheless I think it may appear to the average Chinese person rightfully or not, as foreigners dismissing the opinions of Chinese as irrationally nationalistic.

Given the hysterical reactions from many (but not all) Chinese, I think we have good reason to be condescending. Maturity has not really been the order of the day.

Contemptible, like confusing the Nepalese police for Chinese? Calls for Olympic Boycotts? The Free Tibet movement in general?

A lot of people have been stupid.

Well, I think to establish dialogue and understanding with the opinions of the vast majority of Chinese, we should not give too much credence to the small minority that are prone to idiotic posturing.

>confusing the Nepalese police for Chinese?

Splitting hairs. Let's face it, Nepal is practically a Chinese-ruled territory anyway, like Burma. The Katmandu embassy was directing police operations against peaceful protests. Nothing sinister about that?

>Calls for Olympic Boycotts?

A bit late at this point I think. Personally I don't think the international community should have given them the bloody thing at all in the first place.

>The Free Tibet movement in general?

I'll be the first to agree that a lot of Free Tibet activists don't have the foggiest about what they're actually supporting, but then again that's true for the fenqing side of the debate as well. I don't see how it's any fairer to tar the whole Free Tibet movement as stupid any more than it is fair to tar anyone who supports Tibet's continued presence in the Chinese state as stupid.

@ferin
"...morons come from all over the world"

You said it ferin...

I think we can all agree that their are crazy people on both sides. However, just that I do not think that protesters who cannot even locate Tibet on a map are representative of the Free-Tibet movement I also think that we should be careful of equating China with rabid moronic extreme nationalists.

She wanted to play politics. It backfired, simple as that.
She deserved this, in a way.

The outcome isn't that bad, she now certainly has an easier path to greencard as a political refugee.

@ferin

How is it helpful to bring that into this discussion?

Words fail me. Are you even interested in discussion?

@hualian

Well, I think to establish dialogue and understanding with the opinions of the vast majority of Chinese, we should not give too much credence to the small minority that are prone to idiotic posturing.

Well, apparently Wang was trying to establish a dialgue and she and her family go death threats because of that. If no clear stand is taken against this kind of behavior from the Chinese community, what is the hope for a dialogue? This is national news now and potentially very damaging for associations like the Duke Chinese Students and Scholars Association. Do not underestimate the potential fallout of this incident.

Well I personally support Ms. Wang's attempts, but I fail to see the reasoning behind some sort of collective responsibility on behalf of a Chinese community of 1.3 billion many of whom may have little to do with both Ms. Wang and the crazy nationalists. Like I said, I do think its detrimental for any sort of dialogue if we reduce any side as somehow not "equal" (For the lack of a better word). That goes for reducing Chinese opinion to rabid irrational nationalism or similarly claiming some sort of wide spread conspiracy against China.

Surely, extreme nationalism expressed through the anonymity of the internet is an important issue for China, and for many other countries as well. But it isn't nearly China's greatest problem or for that matter have the capability of ensuring that China will be "doomed to wallow in impotent and pointless rage." China may very well falter on its path to modernity, (I hope not) but I personally will look towards some sort of economic or environmental disaster.

“There are a few students that are very angry at her,” she said, “but there are many others who try to protect her, try to speak for her. Actually, the majority didn’t think she did so wrong to be treated like that.”

@STQ
"She wanted to play politics. It backfired, simple as that. She deserved this, in a way."

She wanted to play a human being (homo sapiens sapiens). It backfired on the ones who menaced her. She deserves far more respect than you seem to give to her.

Yes, I agree with ecodelta that Ms. Wang did nothing wrong. I also have no respect for the kinds of people who harassed Ms. Wang, who hide behind the internet to express extreme nationalism and I'm sure the vast majority of people Chinese or not Chinese will agree.

Actually on second thought, I do not think I have the right to speak for everybody Chinese or non-Chinese, but as an individual I have no respect for those kinds of people.

There's a horrible video about this affair (in chinese):
http://tinyurl.com/6z2vw7
The page also features a screen shot from the People's Daily website calling this young lady the "ugliest overseas student." Never before have I been so pessimistic about the direction in which Chinese society is moving. As someone whose life is completely intertwined with China, it's really quite depressing.

Well, certainly Ms. Wang deserved to be treated better and it is outrageous that some mobs have targeted her family in China. However, that is not something only happening in childish China. For example, 3 years ago, a student received death threats and went into hiding after calling Pat Tillman an "idiot."

As to Ms. Wang, I was curious why she had to write "Free Tibet, Save Tibet" in order to be a peace maker? Does China have to send North Korea a few missiles in order to host the six party talks?

I don't know Kevin the "People's Daily" probably has said much worst things then that so I'm surprised you'd be the most pessimistic now. As for the video, I'm weary of using an internet video to judge the direction of Chinese society. It is a problem though I do agree, it would be irresponsible to ignore that there are extreme nationalists in China using the internet as a cover and medium to express their views. But I don't think we should exaggerate their significance. There are a lot of things in China to be pessimistic about, internet thugs probably are a little ways down the list.

"Actually on second thought, I do not think I have the right to speak for everybody Chinese or non-Chinese, but as an individual I have no respect for those kinds of people."

So you have no respect for "everybody Chinese or non-Chinese"? Dear hualian, I really hope you'll stay around, we are going to have a lot of fun with you.

Regardless of their views on Tibet, ordinary decent Chinese netizens ought to condemn the behaviour of the fenqing. If they keep silent, they will have no right to complain if the rest of the world tars all Chinese netizens with the same brush.

haha I'm sorry mor I didn't notice that it actually sounded a little odd. I mean to say I don't have respect for extreme nationalists on the internet.

Well Peter, I am thinking of the idea of collective responsibility. In the sense that we seem to link ourselves and others with arbitrary groups. Like, say the Chinese netizens should be responsible for what the fenqin say on the net simply because they hold the same passport. Or how many Chinese think that events like the attack on the torch in Paris are somehow related to the French corporation of Carrefour. I'm not saying that I don't make these links, but if you think about it, many of these links are actually rather arbitrary or have little to do with the issue at hand. I'm only thinking about it though, but I do find it quite interesting.

CLC
"As to Ms. Wang, I was curious why she had to write "Free Tibet, Save Tibet" in order to be a peace maker? Does China have to send North Korea a few missiles in order to host the six party talks?"

Actually she might has used one of the techniques used in psychology: to confront people from both side against that what make them overreact strongly.

If you equate an statement with missiles.... man! you have a problem.

On the issue of the Carrefour situation, I doubt it would have much of an effect and is in all likelihood organized by a small minority. But yet here I am talking about it. I guess this explains our fascination with whats louder and more provocative such as the crazy nationalists on the internet.

@hualian

It did sound a little odd, didn't it? Actually, I totally agree with you. And I really think we are going to have a lot of fun together.

Again, the Western mainstream media choose to report a LONELY voice while ignoring the outrage expressed by the overwhelming majority of the oversea Chinese communities, only because that the lonely voice fits you Westerner's believes. There were mass protests in Sydney, Melbourne, Ottawa and Seattle last week, did you hear a single word about those events in your mainstream media?

On April 19, tens of thousands of Chinese students will be marching on the streets of Paris, Berlin, London, LA and New York city, the Dalai Lama will be greeted with a "sea of red" in U of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Are we going to hear about that in the press?

What's happening is not something you can whitewash or dismiss by using the word "nationalism." I've never seen anything like it in my entire life. The Western media has been getting away with their biased reports for too long. This time, they've crossed that red line in the Chinese psyche. Because this time, they are trying to paint black as white. Even today, some reporters are still using the terms "peaceful protest" and "bloody crackdown." Un-f@#$$king-believable!

For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people's shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you've achieved. How would you feel if some hypocrites come to your party, slap your in the face and tell the guests that your home sucks?

The Chinese are too naive. There are two worlds, and they have different dreams. Can't you tell by the stark contrast in the reception of the Olympic torch? In one world, it was greeted with hypocrisy, jealousy, ill will and violence. In the other world, it was greeted with support, enthusiasm, respect and culture. The irony in this is that the world that invented the ideal is trashing it, while the other world is embracing it. It makes one wonder, which world is more civilized?

@AC

For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people's shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you've achieved.

Your remark, in a nutshell, show how you are politicizing the Olympics. The Olympic games are not a private party, to which you invite guests to flaunt your wealth, it's a sport's competition.

AC, I do agree that recent events and coverage served to promote tremendous solidarity among Chinese around the world, but its my personal opinion that this is also a fleeting occurance. As soon as August 25th roles around, people will get back to their daily lives. I mean the Olympics may come and go but the daily relationship between the Chinese people and their government good or bad will last far longer. If economic growth is not continued no amount of Olympic induced support will be able to compensate. Come to think of it, let's say hypothetically that there is a Shanghai 2020 or Guangzhou 2020 Olympics, will the average Chinese attach as much importance? I don't know the answer but I think its an interesting question to ask.

@Hualian

I am thinking of the idea of collective responsibility. In the sense that we seem to link ourselves and others with arbitrary groups. Like, say the Chinese netizens should be responsible for what the fenqin say on the net simply because they hold the same passport.

There is no collective responsibility here. But if not enough voices are heard from the Chinese community that condemn the persecution of Wang, that will be an image problem for the Chinese community. Simple as that. People who are aware of the incident will be reluctant to interact with Chinese student's associations, lest they come into the line of fire. And all these demonstrations that AC is touting look like endorsing they idea that there is only one point of view that is permissible in the Chinese community. That is not the way you establish dialogue.

Furthermore, if the harassment of Wang continues on websites operating in mainland China, where the internet is heavily policed, we can interpret that as connivance on the part of the PRC government. That is a huge image problem for China.

Actually she might has used one of the techniques used in psychology: to confront people from both side against that what make them overreact strongly.

She could have also hold a banner "Tibet was, is and will be part of China." That will make her a even better referee.

you equate an statement with missiles

To paraphrase CNN-Cafferty statement, I apologize that you read my words that way.

AC, your comment has some good food for thought. I for one fully support the right of Chinese students to demonstrate and voice their beliefs in Europe/North America. If I don't agree with them, that's my problem- they can protest peacefully as long as no laws are broken (like threatening people, for instance).

I just find it comical that the very tenets that have so many people in a rage regarding "Western" media and opinion ( basic freedom of expression which, yes, includes the freedom to say stupid things and voice uninformed opinions, you'll find quite a few of those on CNN) are the ones that allow for these sort of protests in the first place.

Rail against the "West" by taking advantage of its political freedoms? That's what I call having your mantou and eating it too.

I do think, however, that your "two worlds" dichotomy is a bit far-fetched. One of ill will, jealousy and violence, while the other is enthusiasm, respect and culture? Give me a break. It's all one world- a world where profit tops freedom, coercion trumps consensus and 'harmony' wears riot gear. And don't even pretend the current power-that-be in China are not major players in furthering this dynamic.

Ughh, sorry! That last comment should read "posted by: PB"
I'm getting all confused with my acronyms. :-)

The page also features a screen shot from the People's Daily website calling this young lady the "ugliest overseas student."

It is actually a CCTV website sreenshot. I went to the site and could not find it, despite a search using either Ms. Wang's Chinese name or the "ugliest overseas student. " Apparently, it was pulled or someone pulled a prank on CCTV.

hualian,

You are missing the point. The core issue here is not the Games. The issue here is that the Olympics is being used as a tool to attack China's sovereignty in the name of human rights. It's the attempt to separate the country that gets the people united. Get it?

Amban you're right that their might be a sort of a image problem, but I was more on the lines of thinking of why we identify people into these arbitrary groups anyways. Like some how the collective population of Muslims, be them of Turkic, Arabic or Iranian descent are responsible for fundamentalist Islam. Believe it or not I have seen that assumption numerous times. Back to the issue though, judging from both the accounts of people in mainland China, and from overseas Chinese themselves, I do think that it is true that a significant majority of Chinese support the Olympics. That does not mean however, that Chinese people agree with everything the CCP does, far from it. (Judging from the amount of protests that the central government admits to occuring each year). The Chinese do not have a unitary monolithic opinion on everything, a great majority probably agrees vaguely to the particular idea that Olympics should proceed, but that does not equal to unequivocal support for everything the CCP does. As for the theory that the CCP allows for the harrasement of Ms. Wang on the internet, that could be true, theres no way to confirm or deny it as of now, however, that is far from the worst that the CCP has done so personally I'm not sure how it'll effect the image of the CCP.

You could find a lot of idiotic comments on some of those Chinese forums -- racism, bigotry... you name it -- from some supposedly well educated people, just like you could find a lot of idiotic comments from supposedly "liberal" and "open-minded" people on some other sites (try the comment parts on Daily Kos).
The intellectual levels of this site seems to be above average, possibly because of the small number of people that are involved (no offense, Richard).
Through this whole Tibet/torch thing, I've discovered a new group of people that I would call "liberal racists", who have a habit of reacting to anything about China with knee-jerk bashing.
There's this HUGE outcry against MSM -- about how bad the ABC Pennsylvania debate was last night on every liberal political website. Yet the same people don't think twice about the information they get from the same MSM on China -- it fits their story lines, it reinforces what they think of China, so it must be true and representative.
Have the NYT and NPR ever run a front page story on a Chinese who supports the government, or just supports the government in one aspect? Sure, they want to give the "minority" like Ms. Wang a voice. But mind you, anyone who supports the Chinese government is the minority and does not have a voice on MSM. When there came a backlash against the western MSM's story line and the backlash was so strong that they had to give it some coverage, then these people must be categorically branded as being "brainwashed".
Whoever posted Wang's personal info was wrong. If any laws have been broken, then the police must investigate it.
Should Wang's version about her motive and what had happened be taken without a grain of salt? Everyone can make up his/her own mind.
Is the story worth front page NYT? Maybe. But then so should a story about how thousands and thousands of Chinese of all ages, (not just the "angry youth"), of various backgrounds (from mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan ... including those who protested on Tiananmen square 19 years ago...) are all outraged by the biased media coverage.

AC, that may be true, but I'm saying its my personal opinion that economic growth is by far the most important basis of support for the Chinese government. The lack of continued growth in the current form of Chinese government will overshadow all other sources of legitimacy. Due to the conscious decision of Deng Xiaoping to hitch government legitimacy to economic development in the aftermath of the ideologically driven disaster of the Cultural Revolution, territorial integrity will count for very little if economic disaster strikes. Given that however, I think it is very possible that increasing commercialization can continue to the point that it may stimulate political reform (sociologist Barrington Moore Jr. makes for this argument), making the government less reliant simply on growth.

I just find it comical that the very tenets that have so many people in a rage regarding "Western" media and opinion ( basic freedom of expression which, yes, includes the freedom to say stupid things and voice uninformed opinions, you'll find quite a few of those on CNN) are the ones that allow for these sort of protests in the first place.

It only feels comical when the actions of the Chinese students are against your believes.

Did I get you right, PB?

@AC
"For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people's shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you've achieved. How would you feel if some hypocrites come to your party, slap your in the face and tell the guests that your home sucks?"

Your metaphor can be taken farther. Put yourself in the rest of the world's shoes. We decide to put aside past grievances and let the PRC host games night. We show up at PRC's house to find his dirty laundry strewn all over the lawn, and his stepson sobbing and chained in the crawl space.
And to be fair, most of us have been pretty diplomatic about this. The only major free world leader that has really come down hard on the PRC is Sarkozy. Everybody else, Fukuda, Bush, Brown, etc. have politely suggested dialogue with Tenzin Gyatso. I suspect that the majority of the free worlders who have bothered to think about it at all feel that the PRC letting Tibet go would be a good idea, but only a tiny minority expressed this by protesting (which, bear in mind, is a legal and acceptable way to express an opinion in most of the free world). Cafferty expressed his opinion too, which you may or may not like, but he only represents himself. What do your comments say to all those hundreds of millions of people who have not yet publicly condemned the PRC? Lump us all into one violent, jealous, malicious world at your own peril.

By the way, I think what PB is trying to point out is that it is ironic that the same freedom of expression that allows Mainland Chinese students to put on large demonstrations is also what allowed the Torch Relay Protests to occur, and those were what sparked the demonstrations in the first place.

Ferin,

Thank you for throwing your "fucking retard" comment at me. I'm glad to see that you fit in with the crowd.

Actually, the comparison to 1930s Germany is not entirely without merit, as others have noted. In fact, one could write a lengthy analysis of all of the similarities. Basically, the 2 principal characteristics of these types of regimes are (1) ideology; and (2) fear. Here, it seems that China's ideology following the collapse of Marxism is now race-based nationalism. Another important feature is the idea of a Conspiracy. Here, the Chinese seem to believe in an anti-Chinese conspiracy. I'd suggest reading "The Origins of Totalitarianism". Peace, and have a Nice Day :)

@NYT
Hhhhmmm... I would use a different approach. Instead of complaining about bias and demonstrating I would try to engage the MSM in their own terms

For example. Instead of demanding an apology from CNN, I would engage and provide them with material for news closer to the CH side.
Was Jin Jing affair a setup? Provide an interview with her. Let her describe with her own words what her feelings were, family background, why is she handicapped, Provide interviews with people who admire her now, etc.

The robotic goons? Make them more accessible to MSN, what is their family background, what makes them participate in the torch running, what sports they like, etc..

Brainwashing? Encourage interviews with normal CH people. Inside and outside CH through CH organizations. Lets CH people express their feelings about the OG and the criticism about CH

Try to accentuate the human side of story. Avoid political controversial issues if possible. Try not to overreact to blistering critics, keep calm,
AVOID VICTIMIZATION.

This MSM guys live from stories, they need stories every day, every minute. I you provide them with good enough material, you may be surprised how fast they take them. Besides, CH has enough clout to "convince" most MSN to at least take a chance to have a look a this material.

But direct confrontation? Us against them?.... that is not a good strategy, you are harming yourself and loosing an opportunity. It may be the right moment now

I could see today in CH news web sites (both in Chinese and English) the demand for CNN to apologize. I raised an eyebrow.

It is more intelligent to make them feel they should apologize, than to force them to apologize.

I still think that the CH side is still lacking in PR capabilities.

AC,

No, not really. I stated that I think Chinese students have the right to demonstrate even if we don't share the same opinions on various issues. Who am I to tell them they can't voice their opinion peacefully?

I just think it's funny that the freedom of expression in the "Western" media that is vilified as bias by some Chinese nationalists is the very same freedom that lets the Chinese students vent their concern on a public stage here. It's like "You have no right to voice that opinion!! Apologize now!!" (while standing in a public square voicing own opinion that many don't agree with- something that would probably entail a whisking away by an unmarked van back in the PRC).

I for one am happy that they are allowed to enjoy freedom of expression in places such as my home country of Canada. Heck, I'm so happy I'm even paying for their protection with my taxes.

Besides, I think the Chinese government and China in general get off pretty lightly in a lot of "Western" press- ever read what is said about our OWN governments? Oh boy. Not pretty.

That's why I'm a bit confused about Chinese people feeling so singled out. I read lots of "Western" press that is contemptuous of a huge diversity of governments, including our own "dear leaders" (puke). Good press is shit-disturbing, and that's the way some of us like it.

PS: For reference, "Western" media is WAY bigger than CNN, New York Times and Fox. I don't even remember the last time I watched CNN- it's like junk food for the brain.

Richard,

I would say that you are a little bit naive here. Some netizn Chinese got emotional about something then you are depressed? Then I cannot see how you can be happy ever?

"“There are a few students that are very angry at her,” she said, “but there are many others who try to protect her, try to speak for her. Actually, the majority didn’t think she did so wrong to be treated like that.”"

This is another part of the article. There are always people willing to go extreme. Just look at the comments on your blog.

race-based nationalism

Haha, race-based nationalism? The Northern and Southern Han aren't even the same race.

China has a long, long way to go before it can be as racist as America or Europe.

No, Nazi Germany is completely different in every single imaginable way.

Many foreigners find China "enchanting". In some limited cases, the enchantment is enchantment with Chinese females, which is fine, except for the fact that it makes foreign males the subject of Chinese male, race-based nationalistic rage.

"My reminiscence: For such a lovely river, its name was mystifying--- 'Cape Fear'---and the only thing to fear on those enchanted Summer nights was that the magic would end, and REALITY would come crashing in."

REALITY = Chinese nationalism/violent, bloody history. Inability to think.

@BOB
Women are enchanting everywhere.... ;-)

Foreign male competition? Just let go after those exotic foreign women... ;-)

which is fine, except for the fact that it makes foreign males the subject of Chinese male, race-based nationalistic rage.

Well, if you go to Russia and try to do the same they would probably kill you.

I once had some nationalistic Iranian students in the U.S. threaten to kill me when I bumped one of them aside while running in a race.

They said to me: "I kill you. I kill you."

Then don't bump them.

Actually, in retrospect, the English of those Iranian blokes wasn't very good. They may have been just trying to introduce themselves? Maybe they were brothers and their surname was "Killyu"?

I do think their are some fundamental faults with a direct comparison of modern China to Nazi Germany of the 1930's. The authoritarianism of China today still pales in comparison with the extreme totalitarian nature of Nazi Germany, and indeed with Maoist China some 30 years ago. A much closer comparison would be with South Korea in the 70's which was also an authoritarian regime dependent upon economic growth for legitimacy. I suggest a reading of Barrington Moore Jr.'s "Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy" which although I do not think is completely applicable to every situation does have interesting things to say about the development of Communist, Fascist and Democratic manner of modernization. Fundamental to Fascist Germany and Japan, was the combination of a strong landlord class, with a economically significant but politically weak merchant class. The emergence of Communism in the case of China, Moore theorizes, is due to the weak standing of both landlord and merchant in traditional China, aggravated by the Japanese invasion. Chinese modernization thus came behest of a peasant revolution. To ensure the legitimacy of the CCP led government after the ideological disaster of the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping made the decision to promote the emergence of an urban bourgeoisie to encourage economic development. The rise of the urban bourgeoisie is the key to political reform along democratic lines I think. Since it is in the interest of business to limit the arbitrary power of government as to protect their assets. A powerful business class also has the resources to provide alternate centres of power outside of government. Modern China is thus not as prime for a peasant revolution along Maoist lines due to the increasing size and influence of the urban bourgeoisie while on the other hand it also does not have the characteristic union of a powerful landlord class dominating countryside with a weak merchant class as in Fascist nations in the past.

I don't see how you can "love" China and Chinese people by saying all the thing you say in this blog, anybody with any analytical skill can see that your opinion always opposes the interest of the Chinese people and I do not see how you really can bring yourself to write a title such as "No matter who's right about Tibet, time to grow up. Please", when you are the one being immature all the time. You can tell immaturity when you see it? Well, I can tell hypocrisy when I see it, and you are a hypocrite.

Hualian,

You wrote: "The authoritarianism of China today still pales in comparison with the extreme totalitarian nature of Nazi Germany...."

I don't entirely agree. In fact, politics in Germany in the early 1930s was in fact even milder in some respects than what we're seeing now in China. The anti-Jewish (i.e., anti-foreign) mob violence of the Brown Shirts didn't appear until somewhat late in the game in Germany. Prior to that time, many people (especially Jews) believed that if they just kept quiet and cooperated (appeasement) that everything would be fine. Unfortunately, race-based nationalism has its own internal dynamic. The Final Solution wasn't introduced until 1941. Before that, Nazism was just basically anti-Jew, i.e., anti-foreign, believing in an "Int'l Jewish Conspiracy", i.e., an "Int'l Foreign Conspiracy". The mass mentality of the Germans was a reaction to perceived foreign humiliation during WWI, similar to China's perceived humiliation at the hands of foreign imperialists.

Generally, fascism is the unity of monopoly capital and the state, as we're seeing now in China.

A.F. Hayek in his book "The Road to Serfdom" recognizes a proclivity in former communists to seamlessly metamorphose into fascists. Apparently, such people have a certain authoritarian psychology.

recognizes a proclivity in former communists to seamlessly metamorphose into fascists

Like Russia?

China isn't a racially homogenous nation like Nazi Germany, nor do they believe in a dogmatic religion, nor have they ever had a history of "Han sponsored genocide".

Really stupid comparison.

Yes, but I guess thats when we have to differ in interpretation bob, in my view China is moving away from ideological fervor (especially in comparison to the Mao years), towards more openness. I also disagree with the concentration of capital in the state. While the Chinese government does still retain influence in the economy, private capital is becoming increasingly important and influential. As for the sociological origins of Fascism, China does not have an equivalent of the landed Junkers of Germany or the successors to the Daimyo in the Japanese countryside in which to base its support upon. Democracy in both Germany and Japan only occurred after crucial land reform that destroyed the political cohesiveness of the rural landlords. It seems clear to me that the Chinese government of today despite its socialist-communist rhetoric, is becoming ever more dependent upon the emerging urban bourgeoisie as a basis of support. This dependency upon the urban bourgeoisie is the key to democratic development as it occurred in Europe, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

@ "ecodelta"
The media thrive on "sensational" headlines, there's no doubt.
Considering how fast the games of capitalism were learned in the past couple of decades, the PR/media games will be learned soon enough, for better or worse.
It is naive to think by simply "providing" your materials and "encouraging" interviews, you'd get your share of coverage, even in this "free" media.
In 1997, when Hong Kong was returned to China, tens of thousands Chinese had a parade in Manhattan, NY to celebrate. People could disagree with the current government, but it was no doubt a moment of pride for most Chinese. Along the route of the parade, there was ONE anti-China demonstration of maybe 50 people.
Was a parade that size not "sensational"? Was there a lack of people to be interviewed for how happy they were?
Then you watch the news on TV, all the cameras were aimed at the anti-China group, they got the interviews, too. The celebration parade got about 2 second worth of air time. The following day, you read the news, it's the same thing.
The same pattern repeats again and again, you know something is not right. It all precipitated into the major backlash against MSM we see among oversea Chinese.
Now with the internet, people can say "wait a minute", but does it really help? CNN can quietly put away their cropped picture or issue a low key apology, but the damage is done.
A demonstration in front of CNN headquarter is the right thing to do. There will a big one in LA this Sat. But watch how it is covered by CNN and others (if they cover it at all).
This is not "victim mentality", it's reality.
This may not be the right forum to discuss the responsibilities of journalists and media. As readers, we should demand more from papers like NYT, or we might as well just go watch FOXnews.

@ferin

China isn't a racially homogenous nation like Nazi Germany

Wow, you seriously are completely clueless about European history. Not even Hitler believed that Germany was racially homogenous.

Oy, vey. You really CAN'T win, can you Richard...

Hualian,

The "openness" that you refer to is a veneer, false openness. Behind everything lies the security apparatus, and a hallowing out of civil society. It's like living in a haunted house. One of the 1st things that the Nazis did was to hallow out German civil society linking it to the state.

With regard to private capital, much of the private capital owes its origin to corrupt links to the Party, hence, the linkage of capitalism and the State. Also, the goal is to build large state corporations.

The so-called "urban bourgeoisie" phenomenon does not apply as there is stilll no clear publi-private distinction in China giving rise to a sphere of privacy, private thought, freedom of speech, etc.

The middle class in China, as pointed out by Mann in "The China Fantasy", is afraid of democracy (rather than a supporter of democracy) as democracy would likely mean a peasant government. It appears from the nationalistic middle class student demonstrations that such demonstrations are performing a role similar to the Brown Shirts.

Race, in the context of Nazi Germany is more of a political idea anyways. That said, while it is certainly a possibility that China may go down that root, I just do not see the signs in the social construct of modern China. The lack of a powerful class of landlords dominating the rural countryside will hamper the type of government that arose in Germany and Japan during the 30's. Contrastingly, I do think the urban business class is fast becoming the most influential in modern China. As I have mentioned above this characteristic is in common with the development of democracy elsewhere in Asia and the world.

@Hualian

Race, in the context of Nazi Germany is more of a political idea anyways.

Yes, in Nazi Germamy, just as elsewhere.

The lack of a powerful class of landlords dominating the rural countryside will hamper the type of government that arose in Germany and Japan during the 30's.

Interesting observation, but irrelevant if we are to talk about racism. Japanese fascism was murderous, but it did not attempt a holocaust.

I actually have a friend at Duke who knew this girl before this incident. She tells me, Wang was already ostracized by the Chinese students there because she would always insist upon speaking English to her fellow Chinese classmates, even when everyone was Chinese.

My personal view is that Wang wanted this publicity. My friend tells me there was a open space separating about 20 Pro Tibetans and several hundred Chinese students. Wang all of sudden walked into the middle and started to lecture to the Chinese students in English. The odd thing is that Wang always wanted a career in politics in China.

Not to excuse the FenQing but the tradition of freedom of speech, especially a contradictory one is not very strong in China, but every child knows about stories of famous Han Jian or traitor. Being called a han jian is probably worse then being called a mass murderer or child rapist. What is so funny with this episode is that people say she is selling out her country, but she probably is pretty crazy and I doubt a Duke freshman can sell China to the US.

I understand why the Chinese are all riled up over Wang. Speaking from a personal perspective, I have felt pretty oppressed by the Western media, feeling kind of helplessness, being accused of something that you didn't do. Seeing Wang, a fellow compatriot facing down all those Chinese students, actively participating in this, your emotions will override all other concerns.

Bob, while much of the openness is indeed rather thin and paltry, I don't think anyone would disagree its more open then say 30 years ago. I have to mention that unlike Germany, China never had developed much of a civil society, so theres not much of that to hallow out. A civil society can arise, when various business interests attempt to influence and curtail both the government and each other. Eventually this type of constant negotiation could very well see the development of a civil society as you referred. And yes like Taiwan and South Korea, much of the private capital does have its origins in the party, but that does not negate the fact that as private business becomes more influential it will naturally move against arbitrary government power for the simple fact that it seeks to protect its assets from arbitrary seizure.

@x

I understand why the Chinese are all riled up over Wang. Speaking from a personal perspective, I have felt pretty oppressed by the Western media, feeling kind of helplessness, being accused of something that you didn't do. Seeing Wang, a fellow compatriot facing down all those Chinese students, actively participating in this, your emotions will override all other concerns.

If you feel that you are accused of doing something (violating human rights) you didn't do, what point are you proving by persecuting someone who just expressed her views?

Amban, I do think it is significant to the issue at hand, since I think everyone would agree racism rears its ugly head just about in any society, the particular form of government that developed in 1930's Germany and Japan namely Fascism, certainly did make racism that much more dangerous.

@hualian

But you forget that official Japanese racism was directed against the West and that it claimed to represent Asia against imperialism. Fascist Japan also colonized Manchuria under the banner of five-race multiculturalism and claimed that Chinese resistance to Japanese rule was xenophobic. Draw your own conclusions.

Hualian,

Yes, racism appears in most places, but it's particularly virulent when it's fanned by the government propaganda apparatus. I've lived in places with racism, but never in a place where the Government has fanned racist flames.

With regard to Germany, it's probable that but for the war, the Final Solution would never have been made policy. Rather, it's likely that the Nazis would have expelled the Jews to someplace like Madagascar as proposed. At present, in some respects there are efforts underway in China to expel foreigners. Of course, the Chinese are more subtle than the Germans and, therefore, this explusion takes the form of more difficult visa procedures, behind-the-scenes pressure on foreign offices to hire Chinese, etc., etc. In any case, Xenophobia is real in China, and has policy consequences. We don't read about this because of the appeasement.

@Hualian

Manchukuo multiculturalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manchukuo011.jpg

PRC multiculturalism:

http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/sheji/sj-gw.html

Bob, Amban when I say Fascism is dangerous for racism I'm not denying that China might also use xenophobic tendencies for political gain. I simply mean that Fascism is dangerous as far as racism is concerned, which I don't think you guys would really disagree. Also, Bob there is a difference however subtle between the planned expulsion of millions of German Jews (which did culminate in the holocaust it may have something to do with the war but nonetheless it occurred) with changes in visa policy. Xenophobia of course is inherent in Chinese society as it is to varying degrees elsewhere, my personal opinion is however, the course of development that so far China seems to be on (since after the cultural revolution) is more expedient for the emergence of a democratic form of modernization (like Taiwan and S. Korea were a few decades ago) then a form of government that served to dramatically magnify xenophobic tendencies such as the case in Germany and Japan of the 1930's. Now of course I don't mean to say I am one hundred percent confident that my perspective of China's modern political development will necessarily turn out but just that so far in my personal opinion the signs that I perceive from the socio-economic trends of modern China that I think a particular path of development is more likely then another.

Hualian,

I don't think that when we hear about China being "...at the dawn of a new 5,000 year reign" (and similar pronouncements) that they're referring to creating a multi-cultural, pluralistic, liberal society.

How would you classify China's current government system?

Be careful, Ferin's arguments are clearly weak (Germany as "monoethnic," China as a lively and caring mix- try telling a "Han nationalist" about the differences between North and South, haha), so he'll descend into outbursts of obscenity and personal attacks in 3...2....1....

Bob, I personally view that the socio-economic structure of a country is more important in determining political development then rhetoric. (I'm not sure where the phrase you refers to comes from so its difficult for me judge its context) For me, the one constant I see in China's current government is its in transition, its changing I think we can all be sure of that. Everything from its economics to its demographics are undergoing tremendous change. Now where is it going is the million dollar question. The current form of government, is in my opinion, due it its overwhelming reliance on economic performance for legitimacy and the fact that immense changes are occurring under its watch is inherently unstable. In my opinion, however, the socio-economic changes that are occurring right now are more expedient for an eventual emergence of democracy, drawing important parallels to Taiwan and S. Korea of a few decades ago. Now you or anyone else may draw a different conclusion and I just like to say that I do not deny that a starkly different prediction from mine may also be possible.

Bob,

you damn right we should expel you foreigners out of our country. After all, aren't you all really here to eat our food and fornicate with our women. It's the same things the Koreans and Japanese have done after their economies have taken off. It's the logical extension of what should happen.

It's saddened me to know that the divide between China and the West has gotten bigger since the Tibet riot, fanned by hidden Western powers and sources for geopolitical reasons. the saddest part of the whole thing are the Exiled Tibetans and local Tibetans. They are just unknowing pawns in the great games between the West and China.

And last of all, you westerners have already stuck your fingers in your ears and have refused to hear what we have to say. So, stop pointing fingers, you are just as ingorant and stupid as you try to make others are.

Time for all of you foreigners to go home

Middle Finger Kingdom, I highly doubt that there is really an appetite for expulsion of "foreigners" in China. If the general trend of the last 30 years have anything to say, the number of people from outside of China in China will increase. The Olympics might rile up some emotions, but I don't think the trend can be reversed so easily. As the millions of Chinese learning English and other foreign languages can attest to, I don't think most people in China wants to go back to the closed door policies that led to so much disaster and hardship in years past.

Hualian,

No need for you to reply to me, this message for those foreigners living in China who thinks they know anything about China. You and I and other Chinese know and understand China.

Believe me, I've lived in the US for over 20 years, Americans are just as stupid as they think most of the Chinese are. There used to be a saying: don't ever under-estimate the stupidity of Americans." You have to understand, with all their rights to speak and protest, at the end of the day, they're still manipulated by their government to do what they want to do in the world. The American government give their citizens the freedom to talk and bullshit, and in turn, the American citizens allow their government to do what they want in the rest of the world.

Foreigners excel at painting the whole picture with in brush stroke, cuz their peanut brains only allow this limited capacity hold such narrow and minute thought.

Middle finger kingdom, you have a promising career in comedy. And I don't necessarily mean that in a mean way: the whole "middle finger kingdom" is in and of itself classic. I just hope that you're not serious; and if you are, I imagine that you're one of those people who has lived outside of China all of their lives and visited for three weeks at a time.

Middle Finger Kingdom, its nice to know that you agree with me, but I do not think there is no need to accuse a whole group of people of such and such. Don't get me wrong there has been a lot of bitter speech and lack of understanding on either side. And this probably explains the escalating mutual accusations. But I think we should all step back and try to understand each other's opinions. Just because some engage in rather inflammatory speech while also lacking in understanding should not give anyone else a compelling reason to react similarly. I'm sure you'll agree with me on this as well.

*do not think there is a need

sorry for the typo

Grace Wang has shown she is a free thinker, so must be punished by the bloodthirsty mob. The irony is she probably agrees with many of their views.

The other thing that touches me about her example is that even though she may not agree with the pro-Tibet protesters, she is willing to deal with them. Therefore she clearly understands that they have a right to their opinions. That is a sign of maturity and it should not mean that she loves China less.

In the past few days, I have to several people made the case that Chinese get little credit for their views by the West over Tibet because they repeatedly act as if they only care about the interests of the Han Chinese without caring about the Tibetans, who are, after all, the ones who have the problems.

If more Chinese people could acknowledge the protesters and try to find points of compromise between the two sides as Miss Wang has done, then the Chinese government and people would soon see a West that was far more willing to see their point of view. Compromise does not necessarily equal "losing" Tibet or "splitting the motherland".

You don't have to agree with someone to talk with them rationally. I think that the mob, encouraged by the Chinese government, has gotten to the point where no rational talking can be tolerated. That is just silly. It is not only silly by nature. It is silly because it makes realising goals harder. All of this is making China's reputation in the world worse, not better.

The last thing China wants right now is to be confronted with a world of people who feel (although they may not say): You are simply not worth talking to because you can't talk rationally. Like it or not, China still needs the whole world more than the rest of the world needs China, and that will be the case forever. It is the case for all single countries, even for the US which is currently still in a strategically stronger position. Insouciance has not done the US any favours in the last few years. Outright hostility by US mobs would have been catastrophic. China take note.

X, you may be right that they had already ostracised her. However, she sounds like she had a bone or two to pick with how the "community" typically has acted in the past. Regardless, as with the case of the handicapped torch bearer, what Grace Wang stands for in the Western eye will become more important than who she actually is.

Just read Wang's roomate's blog about her, apparently she is schizo. The jest of it is that she is infamous in her dorm because she tells various stories about herself, including that her father is the ex mayor, she was persecuted in China for participating in 64 activities, exiled in Korea and how all the boys just want her milkshake. She also shaved her eyebrows recently because no beautiful girls can change the world.

@Amban
I am not trying to argue what is right or wrong, I am just saying why this is kind of like a Pavlovian trigger especially during this emotional time. You can understand why those students just coming back from the demonstration had a discussion about her on the Duke bbs. Unfortunately, this is routed to Tianya and the entire Chinese BBS blewup over it. The nature of the Chinese BBS is completely different then in America. In China, because the media is restrictive, BBS is a way for common citizens to act like reporters, report real life events and debunk news around them. In the US, the comments are usually just flame wars. In China, it is flame wars in addition to actual reporting by commenters and source of organization. In the case of Wang, people are egging others to get more information, thus you get props from rest of the community. It is like a game. From my knowledge, it is her classmates from her high school who actually did the poo by the door thing, because she is seen as a loss of face for her prestigious high school.

I do admit this entire thing is pretty crazy especially considering that Wang might be crazy and so many people including myself got so emotional about it.

@ Richard
"Nothing is scarier than the herd mentality, especially when the herd is being plain stupid. I care about this country and the people I love here, and they are so exquisite in the individual, and - at least at times like this - so frightening in the mass."

I take no offense from your "scolding". If anything, I agree with you. I am not proud of my fellow citizens' behaviors. I do not claim I am above them. It is the growing pain we must go through. I am sorry you have to see this unpleasant side. But this is part of who we are. I feel your pain. But love us for who we are. We shall survive as we have for thousands of years.

I haven't read enough of your posts to know your opinions. I just stumbled upon this site.

You must know though, the "herd mentality" exists not just among "nationalists". It's everywhere. I wouldn't comment on its existence in other countries/cultures (but I am sure stupidity is universal).

Remember how the whole "crackdown" against Falungong started? CCP used to have no problem with FLG. some officials of CCP were even faithful followers. Then some were concerned that it was morphing into a cult. Someone published an article criticizing FLG on an unimportant local newspaper. FLG wasn't happy. It staged a demonstration at Zhongnanhai. The "crackdown" followed. (I am not saying they brought it upon themselves)

If a religion/cult that advocates "truth, benevolence and tolerance" couldn't be enlightened enough to tolerate a little doubt, what could you expect from some young emotional Fenqing armed with "anonymity" of the internet.
I've visited some of the forums, and was stunned by the level of stupidity and ignorance of these kids (and the topics weren't even on political issues). So I left. I am sure other people have done the same. Whoever keep staying there, they sort of feed off on each other's comments. Trust me, they do not represent everyone.

These kids will grow and learn. Unfortunately, some will have to learn their lessons the hard way. But they will be fine, as will our country and people.

As to the "noble" Ms Wang, if you read about her past (mostly, from the local newspapers in her hometown when she got full scholarship to go to a US university), you will find that she is super smart and super ambitious. So she will be just fine -- although it seems to me that she's having some serious identity issues, which I hope she grows out of soon.

My parents used to tell me how people would feed those who had starved to near death (probably they'd seen and heard about too many, both before 1949 and after). They'd say, you only give them a little bit of "zhou" first, you cannot give them a lot of food, or they'd stuff to death.

So one spoon of "zhou" at a time.

"No need for you to reply to me, this message for those foreigners living in China who thinks they know anything about China. You and I and other Chinese know and understand China."

Hmm. I would call this, in your words, "peanut-brained" thinking. Actually this type of thinking reminds me a lot of what many addicts and trauma patients think. The person, towards the beginning, simply feels that nobody else can understand his condition. He is, somehow, special.

Middle Finger Kingdom, the events of over 100 years ago don't justify an inferiority/superiority complex that turns rational thought sour.

Middle Finger Kingdom says:

"And last of all, you westerners have already stuck your fingers in your ears and have refused to hear what we have to say. So, stop pointing fingers, you are just as ingorant [sic] and stupid as you try to make others are."

How can we point fingers if we've got them stuck in our ears???

be creative, pinky for the ears, pointer for the pointing.

@x

Just read Wang's roomate's blog about her, apparently she is schizo.

...and you believe that. And even if it were right, does it matter?

The nature of the Chinese BBS is completely different then in America. In China, because the media is restrictive, BBS is a way for common citizens to act like reporters, report real life events and debunk news around them.

...and the net result of that combination of Internet culture and government restriction is even more persecution? Unbelievable.

In the case of Wang, people are egging others to get more information, thus you get props from rest of the community. It is like a game. From my knowledge, it is her classmates from her high school who actually did the poo by the door thing, because she is seen as a loss of face for her prestigious high school.

That's an interesting explanation, but not an excuse. This whole thing stinks from the beginning to the end.

(Germany as "monoethnic," China as a lively and caring mix- try telling a "Han nationalist" about the differences between North and South, haha),

Germany is not 'monoethnic'. It's 'monoracial'. The South and North Chinese are different races. Yes, SE and NE Asians are different races, just with a lot of admixture on both sides.

The genetic difference is very large. I've told several "Han nationalists" that North and South are different races. They don't blow up at me, they just gape, as if it's heresy.

If you want Hitler's version of Germany's ethnic composition, it was mostly "Nordic" with some "Alpine", i.e not only from the same broad grouping (Caucasoid) but from a small portion of that grouping (white).

BOB is paranoid. You lie and exaggerate, and not only that, but you don't ever know what you're talking about.

kevinnolongerinpudong,

thanks for the "compliment", my sense and level of comedy goes up whenever i see more crap coming out of you "democracy" preaching people. My point is and has always been the same, it's the same crap in every country. I'm of the goepolitical bent, what I see in the US, in China, and in between are nothing more the the usual competition for resources and powers.

I've long ago gave up arguing for this or that social-political systems. I just hope people acknowledge that the competition for world power and hegemony is a dirty business. And lastly, we shouldn't take each other and opinions too seriously. Last but not least, you dumb ass foreigners should start recognizing your hypocrisy, cuz your s**t really stinks.

Your democratic system is a means to an end - global hegemony, and China's social system is also a means to an end - progressoion of the Chinese people and advancemen to the idea of global soicial-political pluralism, and of course, global hegemony.

The game has just started, there's nothing u or I can do anything about it. So, just sit back and relax and enjoy the show. And of course, Go China!!

Hualian,

You didn't answer my question: How would you classify China's current government system?

You say that China's "in transition"----from "what" to "what"? What do you call a 1 party state with links between monopoly capital and government?

Middle Kingdom Finger,

You said that I should be expelled from China because I eat your Chinese food and fornicate with Chinese women. Hmmm..."Who's been eating my porridge?! Who's been sleeping in my bed?!" "I'll huff, and I'll puff...and I'll blow your house in!"

By the way, I'm not fornicating with Chinese women, and least not for a while anyway, but if you've got any numbers, please send them along. Thanks.