i noticed on wikipedia that Song Jiaoren was shot on this day in 1913, dying two days later. he was in favour of decentralisation and a cabinet form of government. it led me to think about what might have been had the kuomintang won the civil war and also what might have been had there been a federal system in the roc.

any thoughts?

If the Communists didn't win the war, all Chinese would be much more enlightened and open by now than all the stuff we see here. At least they would be able to think straight.

And, without the yoke and chain CPC put on the country between 1949 and 1979, who knows what would happen to the economy by 1979, probably much better Japan, and would the the strongest economy on earth by 1979, not the 25% of US with 450% of the US population.

agree with Bill

Why did the Tibetans have rioted? Here is a timeline compiled by an activist in Beijing:

http://tinyurl.com/yvmbex

So much for my idea of a Tibet-free thread....

I thought it was a "free &i&*t" thread!

strategypage.com/militaryforums/89-61485.aspx

Ah yes, 1936. I wrote about that once myself here.

how about this interim gov't for China.... Maybe we should talk about that since it might become a big issue sooner than most people think.....

http://www.chinainterimgov.org/en/index.php

I tend to agree with Bill, too, but speculative history is soooo risky.

First you must permanently deconstruct China and that is where my master plan comes in:

http://tinyurl.com/25sdr4

Interesting conspiracy theories here, the panda gropers love to link the "videos" of Tibetans attacking Chinese, but much of it may have been staged. "if the dee el won't riot, Beijing will do it for him":
w.zonaeuropa.com/200803b.brief.htm#020

still, it is just disgusting that the only western gov't openly talking about boycotts is the French. The IOC and Un are jokes and so are the Bushies, who are still whining about Iranian nukes.

You know what I don't quite get about the Nazi "comparison"? Hitler had written Mein Kampf 13 years earlier, and it reads pretty much like a rough road-map for what Nazi Germany would attempt to implement under his control.

What's the Chinese equivalent of Mein Kampf in the modern period? You can argue Communist China once wanted to export communist revolution to the worker class of the world; but where's the guiding philosophy of 2008?

On a much lighter note, it seems like Beijing has another Olympics problem on its hands:

http://tinyurl.com/3xsug2

I don't know why there's always such a fuss about squats. I'd rather deal with a filthy squat than a filthy sit-down, any day! And I've often heard they are better for you, any health experts out there?

ROC could not win the war whatsoever. One word: inflation.

Inflation is always the most dangerous enemy to any Chinese government.

@PB
From sanitary point of view I consider squat toilets better than sitting toilets.

There is no physical contact and they are far easier to clean.

Another advantage is that they tend to favor a higher turn around. That has its advantages in any place with high concentration of people, like OG. How many of you have spend more time than necessary in a siting toilet, reading newspaper, smoking...... ;-)

On a lighter mode, that most Chinese are more used to squat toilets, prove their on average better physical condition and nimbleness.
Yes. It is going to be a hard competition these Olimpic games.....

I consider siting toilets a step backwards. Not all "western" advances and real advances.

Nevertheless, I consider sitting toilets more comfortable.... :-)

@Bill

My favorite what if theory is. What could have happened if the last Imperial dynasty was Han Ethnic and could have evolved to some sort of constitution based monarchy/empire?

@CCT
One of the 'vices' of the German people is that they tend to document everything with greatest detail

For example. At the end of the wwii the amount of document about concentration camps: train movement, supplies, registered people, and 'production' reports was simply astounding. That came very handy in Nuremberg tribunal.

Other people are either more lazy and/or more careful in this respect.

Mein Kampf was not taken seriously at the beginning, before Hitler reached power. Afterwards.....

In theory, squat toilets are better for no physical contact and the sitting position leads to a more complete evacuation of the bowels.

In practice, the open sides of the squat toilet often lead to "shotgunning" the walls when you are having a "watery" day. Also, when a big load is put down, the water pressure and volume is often not enough to completely clear the vessel, providing a bit of surprise, humor and/or disgust when they come in and see a friggin' telephone pole laying in the vessel.
Upon seeing one of those you have expect to see a trail of blood drippings leading out of the stall.

But both of these scenarios are the polar opposites of decor, sanitary conditions, mental health and good customer service.

Being in the water treatment industry, I can tell you that western and Japanese researchers are working on ways to fit a reliable and economical biddae (spelling?) into toilets as the volume of toilet paper is becoming a problem for the current generation of treatment plants.

I believe it's 'bidet'

"From sanitary point of view I consider squat toilets better than sitting toilets."

Perhaps, but there's a greater risk of 'splashback' - you don't want any piece of that!

"Another advantage is that they tend to favor a higher turn around."

The turn around is further improved by a disinclination among Chinese to flush.

Not to mention that, according to my experiences at a girls nursing school, and my wife's scathing observations, femmes tend to miss in squat toilets even more than men do. Femmes, your thoughts?

Michael

For public toilets, I think squat toilets are better. For toilets in your home, I think sit toilets are better. Toilet paper is pretty wasteful and I hear that all toilets in India use that 'bidet' thing, but I'm not sure. However, they're expensive to install and would take some time to get used to. I mean after you use it, and your butts all wet, what do you do?

Give the wrong people a bidet in their toilet (ferin, CCT, Math, Wayne, Hongxing, fatbrick) and they'll spend the rest of their lives in the bathroom.

As a female living in China:

Yes, 'femmes' tend to miss much more when using a squat toilet. Also, chances of splashback, which are minimal in a western toilet are increased a thousandfold.

Sad story from the riots with a sinister China Daily, anti-T1betan spin:

http://tinyurl.com/2yjfzo

At the end of the clip we hear this:

"Official statistics show that so far 156 rioters have surrendered. Local police say they are confident they'll arrest those behind the riots, and will severely punish them."

That 'severely punish' bit has got to be worrying. Also, from the comments page it is clear that the rank 'n file are lapping it all up and baying for bloody revenge.

@ChunZu
"I mean after you use it, and your butts all wet, what do you do?"

Butt drier included in the equipment? That could be a complete new experience.... ;-)

Must check if its an already patented idea.....

^ecodelta

I'm pretty certain it already is. Think a Japanese firm got in before you.

(Japanese: world leaders in toilet technology.)

Re: butt dryer. Look up Toto toilets. My wife had been lusting after one of their products for a long time and we finally got one in our remodeled bathroom. Yes, their top of the line model has a dryer :)

When I was living in the dormitory in Taiwan University, it was like daily occurrence that the janitor had to clean up the poop that missed the squats or the one that refused to be flushed away. It could be quite frustrating when one really needed to use a toilet and couldn't find a clean one, even there were 4 or 5 available there.
As for the sitting toilets in public places, people tend to squat on them not because they like squatting, since we all have sitting toilets at home, but because they do not want to touch them. The results are seats all covered with footprints.
It was quite traumatizing that for a long time I would wake up from the bad dreams about not finding a clean toilet.

Be careful, fellow bloggers! And good luck!

"Meanwhile, bloggers in China have apparently been told by the "Chinese Internet Watching Authority" that they'll be arrested and dealt with "with the appropriate action" if they discuss the Tibetan riots. " (Wired News. 21 March 2008)

Here is the url: http://tinyurl.com/33f6vl

Police bust Chinese slave-ring

Posted by: Janus at March 21, 2008 11:24 AM

"I believe it's 'bidet'

Yeah, it used to be Tibet, but now that the Chinese have trashed it with nuclear waste and watered down the culture, 'bidet" is applicable.

Just adding an alternative piece of speculative history: Perhaps China would be a lot more open if the (western) world had granted it a fair deal after the war...

There is no nuclear waste stored in Tibet. Their are/were two major nuclear facilities responsible for the assembly and fabrication of nuclear weapons in China. The first is Haiyan facility located near the Koko Nor salt lake at the northeastern edge of Qinghai. The second is the Mianyang facility located in eastern Szechuan.

Neither of which is located in the TAR nor are the populations majority Tibetans, though the Lamaists are themselves quite fond of territorial aggrandizement.

Jing, I think THM was making a joke. A very black joke - but I don't think it was a serious allegation.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a T*bet-free thread.

Shall we get back to discussing toilets?

Matai, China was given a seat on the UNSC after WWII - it couldn't have been treated more fairly.

Raj ^,

I guess it depends on your definition of 'fair'. I think the west could have paid a lot more attention to China around that time, but as Richard will remind us the distance and race factors both played a part there.

Oh well, I believe that squat toilets are much less sanitary for women. Even though you may occasionally find footprints and splashes on the seats of public 'western' style toilets in mainland China, that is nothing compared to the streams of urine, excrement and blood you will find spread right across the floor, sides, and even walls of any public squat toilet.

http://tinyurl.com/39qk4h

Not sure if anybody follows this story. It's been a headline-type of news in China for a while. This young couple from Zhejiang went to Paris and shopped at Lafayette. They paid with cash. The cashier suspected the notes were fake, and called in security and police. They were detained for 11 hours (in quite possibly their honeymoon) and searched "insultingly".

Paris is new to greet the newly rich from China. On the other hand, high-end stores in Hong Kong, Tokyo or Seoul have known this type of shoppers well -- soon Taipei too, which likely will give the Taiwanese economy a kick after Ma was elected.