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	<title>Comments on: Dumb responses to the Wen family scandal</title>
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	<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/</link>
	<description>A peculiar hybrid of personal journal, dilettantish punditry, pseudo-philosophy and much more, from an Accidental Expat who has made his way from Hong Kong to Beijing to Taipei and finally back to Beijing for reasons that are still not entirely clear to him...</description>
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		<title>By: Atticus Dogsbody</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187578</link>
		<dc:creator>Atticus Dogsbody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 03:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187578</guid>
		<description>You need to get out more, Jing. Make some friends, try some new things, maybe even meet a girl. I know that being completely bugfuck crazy makes it hard for you, but, hey, you gotta try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You need to get out more, Jing. Make some friends, try some new things, maybe even meet a girl. I know that being completely bugfuck crazy makes it hard for you, but, hey, you gotta try.</p>
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		<title>By: jing</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187564</link>
		<dc:creator>jing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 23:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wen and almost every other coummunist party member are the arch traitors of the Chinese nation. Worse than Wu sangui or Wang jingwei because their race treason is self manifesting rather than having an outside provenance. The regeneration of the Han race will begin only once they and their families have been exterminated to the 10th degree. My only question is which western nation they will seek to run to and if that snakes are willing to shelter the rats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wen and almost every other coummunist party member are the arch traitors of the Chinese nation. Worse than Wu sangui or Wang jingwei because their race treason is self manifesting rather than having an outside provenance. The regeneration of the Han race will begin only once they and their families have been exterminated to the 10th degree. My only question is which western nation they will seek to run to and if that snakes are willing to shelter the rats.</p>
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		<title>By: slim</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187510</link>
		<dc:creator>slim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187510</guid>
		<description>The Asia Times publishes a lot of flakey stuff, conspiracy theories and even a monthly dose of straight-up North Korean propaganda. Even more than other such sites, a reader has to work hard to find quality there amid the dross.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Asia Times publishes a lot of flakey stuff, conspiracy theories and even a monthly dose of straight-up North Korean propaganda. Even more than other such sites, a reader has to work hard to find quality there amid the dross.</p>
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		<title>By: yamabuki Zhou</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187509</link>
		<dc:creator>yamabuki Zhou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187509</guid>
		<description>Want China Times has an interesting take on the Wen family financial problem based on Wikileaks information:
&quot;A US diplomatic cable leaked by whistleblowing website WikiLeaks claims that China&#039;s premier, Wen Jiabao, has been troubled by his family&#039;s questionable financial dealings for at least the past five years.

The business activities of Wen&#039;s family were brought under the spotlight last week after the New York Times published an article claiming that relatives including Wen&#039;s mother, wife and children control hidden wealth in excess of US$2.7 billion. China&#039;s foreign ministry condemned the article as a smear campaign, while Wen&#039;s son Wen Yunsong, otherwise known as Winston Wen, retained two lawyers to study the possibility of a defamation lawsuit.

It now appears that Wen had known for quite some time that the scale and provenance of his family&#039;s wealth might come back to haunt him. In a confidential telegram dated Sept. 20, 2007, the deputy principal officer of the US consulate in Shanghai, Simon Schuchat, referenced a source who claimed that the business operations of Wen&#039;s family is &quot;a major political headache&quot; for the premier.

In a section titled &quot;Wen Jiabao: Chain of Fools,&quot; Wen&#039;s wife Zhang Peili was described as a heavyweight in China&#039;s jewelry industry, having once worked as a high-level official of top diamond trading firm Daimengde. Though Zhang resigned from her position after Wen was named premier in 2003, it was &quot;in name only&quot; and she remains &quot;very influential in the industry,&quot; the telegram said.

The document also mentioned that Wen&#039;s daughter, Wen Ruchun, worked for the Beijing branch of global financial services firm Credit Suisse for a year, while his son Winston ran an investment fund.

&quot;Wen&#039;s wife and children all have the reputation as people who can &#039;get things done&#039; for the right price,&quot; said the report, which was published by WikiLeaks in 2009.

The source stopped short of accusing Wen&#039;s family of taking bribes but said they are &quot;amenable to accepting exorbitant &#039;consulting fees&#039; or selling inferior diamonds at a significant mark-up.&quot;

The section concluded by saying that Wen is &quot;disgusted with his family&#039;s activities but is either unable or unwilling to curtail them,&quot; adding that he would like to divorce his wife but is &quot;constrained&quot; by the prominence of his political position.

The name of the source was redacted in the leaked document, although according to Duowei News, an outlet run by overseas Chinese, the source was a China-born high-level executive of an American corporation in Shanghai.

The revelations formed part of a confidential US report looking into Chinese leaders in the lead up to China&#039;s 17th National Congress, held in October 2007. The 18th National Congress, where Wen and his cohort are expected to step aside to make way for the next generation of Communist Party leaders, is scheduled to commence in Beijing next week.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Want China Times has an interesting take on the Wen family financial problem based on Wikileaks information:<br />
&#8220;A US diplomatic cable leaked by whistleblowing website WikiLeaks claims that China&#8217;s premier, Wen Jiabao, has been troubled by his family&#8217;s questionable financial dealings for at least the past five years.</p>
<p>The business activities of Wen&#8217;s family were brought under the spotlight last week after the New York Times published an article claiming that relatives including Wen&#8217;s mother, wife and children control hidden wealth in excess of US$2.7 billion. China&#8217;s foreign ministry condemned the article as a smear campaign, while Wen&#8217;s son Wen Yunsong, otherwise known as Winston Wen, retained two lawyers to study the possibility of a defamation lawsuit.</p>
<p>It now appears that Wen had known for quite some time that the scale and provenance of his family&#8217;s wealth might come back to haunt him. In a confidential telegram dated Sept. 20, 2007, the deputy principal officer of the US consulate in Shanghai, Simon Schuchat, referenced a source who claimed that the business operations of Wen&#8217;s family is &#8220;a major political headache&#8221; for the premier.</p>
<p>In a section titled &#8220;Wen Jiabao: Chain of Fools,&#8221; Wen&#8217;s wife Zhang Peili was described as a heavyweight in China&#8217;s jewelry industry, having once worked as a high-level official of top diamond trading firm Daimengde. Though Zhang resigned from her position after Wen was named premier in 2003, it was &#8220;in name only&#8221; and she remains &#8220;very influential in the industry,&#8221; the telegram said.</p>
<p>The document also mentioned that Wen&#8217;s daughter, Wen Ruchun, worked for the Beijing branch of global financial services firm Credit Suisse for a year, while his son Winston ran an investment fund.</p>
<p>&#8220;Wen&#8217;s wife and children all have the reputation as people who can &#8216;get things done&#8217; for the right price,&#8221; said the report, which was published by WikiLeaks in 2009.</p>
<p>The source stopped short of accusing Wen&#8217;s family of taking bribes but said they are &#8220;amenable to accepting exorbitant &#8216;consulting fees&#8217; or selling inferior diamonds at a significant mark-up.&#8221;</p>
<p>The section concluded by saying that Wen is &#8220;disgusted with his family&#8217;s activities but is either unable or unwilling to curtail them,&#8221; adding that he would like to divorce his wife but is &#8220;constrained&#8221; by the prominence of his political position.</p>
<p>The name of the source was redacted in the leaked document, although according to Duowei News, an outlet run by overseas Chinese, the source was a China-born high-level executive of an American corporation in Shanghai.</p>
<p>The revelations formed part of a confidential US report looking into Chinese leaders in the lead up to China&#8217;s 17th National Congress, held in October 2007. The 18th National Congress, where Wen and his cohort are expected to step aside to make way for the next generation of Communist Party leaders, is scheduled to commence in Beijing next week.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: justrecently</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187479</link>
		<dc:creator>justrecently</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 06:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187479</guid>
		<description>They can still do that &lt;i&gt;now&lt;/i&gt;, and then prosecute the NYT, Ron. In China, anyway.

But let&#039;s not shout at Francesco Sisci. He&#039;s from &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nothing-Happens-Without-a-Reason&lt;/a&gt; Country.

Btw, nothing against a bit of speculation, but criticizing the NYT for portraying Wen &lt;i&gt;almost like a big moneymaker within the state&lt;/i&gt; and not going into any details himself re his own scenario is weak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They can still do that <i>now</i>, and then prosecute the NYT, Ron. In China, anyway.</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s not shout at Francesco Sisci. He&#8217;s from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli" rel="nofollow">Nothing-Happens-Without-a-Reason</a> Country.</p>
<p>Btw, nothing against a bit of speculation, but criticizing the NYT for portraying Wen <i>almost like a big moneymaker within the state</i> and not going into any details himself re his own scenario is weak.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187464</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 03:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187464</guid>
		<description>Maybe they should have classified all these ownership details as state secrets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe they should have classified all these ownership details as state secrets.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Goldthorpe</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187449</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Goldthorpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187449</guid>
		<description>That, Richard, is the beauty of having a political system based on &quot;5000 years of history&quot; and seemingly completely unchanged since then and unprepared for the modern age of instant communication.  What the top echelons in Zongnanhai do these days in power transitions might have worked even as recently as the Qing era but now leave themselves completely open to any old rumour that can do the rounds internationally.
Of course, completely blocking the NYT (bit of a pisser as I&#039;ll be in China this January on holiday) because it &quot;blackens China&#039;s name and has ulterior motives&quot; (not blackening Wen, you understand, blackening all of China!) isn&#039;t something an innocent would say, is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That, Richard, is the beauty of having a political system based on &#8220;5000 years of history&#8221; and seemingly completely unchanged since then and unprepared for the modern age of instant communication.  What the top echelons in Zongnanhai do these days in power transitions might have worked even as recently as the Qing era but now leave themselves completely open to any old rumour that can do the rounds internationally.<br />
Of course, completely blocking the NYT (bit of a pisser as I&#8217;ll be in China this January on holiday) because it &#8220;blackens China&#8217;s name and has ulterior motives&#8221; (not blackening Wen, you understand, blackening all of China!) isn&#8217;t something an innocent would say, is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187448</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187448</guid>
		<description>I have issues with that article on several level, Mike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have issues with that article on several level, Mike.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Goldthorpe</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187442</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Goldthorpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187442</guid>
		<description>More form the Asia Times Online
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/NK01Ad01.html

I do love a nice conspiracy theory :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More form the Asia Times Online<br />
<a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/NK01Ad01.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/NK01Ad01.html</a></p>
<p>I do love a nice conspiracy theory <img src='http://www.pekingduck.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: justrecently</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/10/dumb-responses-to-the-wen-family-scandal/comment-page-1/#comment-187397</link>
		<dc:creator>justrecently</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=11025#comment-187397</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What sort of damage am I trying to control?&lt;/i&gt;

As I said, t_co, &lt;i&gt;my impression&lt;/i&gt; is that you are in damage control mode, and the damage in question are the NYT revelations about Wen Jiabao&#039;s family, and the questions they raise about the political &quot;culture&quot; more in general. Your comment #6 on the previous thread on this topic: &quot;You seem to be implying that the only way they got into business was because of their familial connections&quot; - in reply to Raj&#039;s &quot;Maybe they shouldn’t have gone into business and got an ordinary salaried job&quot;. It&#039;s flat denial to suggest that there was no link between Wen Jiabao&#039;s son&#039;s achievements and Wen&#039;s political role as chief state councillor. Then try a google search on sewage treatment in Chinese and Wen Jiabao speeches. Now, tell me that Wen&#039;s younger brother and his company had no advantage when it came to the related projects - and make me laugh. Then the Ping An issue as addressed by Peter Lee (see Foarp&#039;s #66 reply to that), and the &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; accusation against slim as he calls Lee a &lt;i&gt;thinking man’s fenqing&lt;/i&gt;. Granted - I&#039;d rather refer to Lee as the &lt;i&gt;thinking fenqing&#039;s favorite journalist&lt;/i&gt;, but that difference is rather subtle.

If there&#039;s something slippery, it&#039;s how Lee congratulates the NYT on the one hand, and then points out how the whole thing wasn&#039;t that big after all. It&#039;s big in that it runs counter to the idea that this or that quarter of the CCP was &quot;clean&quot;, especially Wen himself - a supposedly indefatigable fighter against corruption. Lee&#039;s let&#039;s-look-into-the-likelihood-of-the-allegations-one-by-one approach simply does what the NYT had done before.

&quot;[T]he Times was unfortunately unable to come up with a clear determination as to whether they were simply front companies for Wen family skullduggery or, well, partnerships that provided privileged access for wealth creation for PRC and foreign elites, some of whom were members of the Wen family&quot; (Lee)? Tell you what: those &quot;leading communists&quot; are unable to come up with a clear picture of &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; share in China&#039;s economic growth. The NYT deserves credit for every issue it has shed light on, and they have accounted for what is for sure, and what are their own conclusions. If the CCP leaders were about as accountable, they wouldn&#039;t have to fear reports like these to the degree they do.

Combine that with Lee&#039;s interpretation of China&#039;s &quot;mass protests&quot; after the Senkaku purchases (as quoted by you under #49 under the &quot;How does Japan look at the Chinese protests&quot; post (Sept 23), and combine that with &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; comments on Richard&#039;s &quot;Great-Leap-Forward&quot; thread. It&#039;s one thing to say that ´o Grada&#039;s criticism of Dikotters &quot;Great Famine&quot; is a recommendable read. It&#039;s another to suggest that some approaches &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/06/the-great-leap-forward-on-film/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;it all too easy for the Global Times and other nationalist Chinese media to tar and paint all Western academics with the same brush&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; (#72 there).
As if the &quot;Global Time&#039;s&quot; verdict was a standard to go by.

Then your comment #221 on the same thread, as Richard re-opened the thread:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Somchai is posting flamebait and he knows it. Not sure why you’d reopen a comment thread to let someone post what is essentially an extended ad hominem.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.

That, plus your idea that news about Xi Jinping&#039;s financial situation shouldn&#039;t have been reported, as it would lead to &lt;i&gt;&quot;a lot of their mainland sources .. no longer talk(ing) to them&quot;&lt;/i&gt;. As if that should stop news people from doing their job.

These repeating patterns lead to my impression that your main interest is to see reports like these - be it Bloomberg, be it the NYT - or their impact limited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What sort of damage am I trying to control?</i></p>
<p>As I said, t_co, <i>my impression</i> is that you are in damage control mode, and the damage in question are the NYT revelations about Wen Jiabao&#8217;s family, and the questions they raise about the political &#8220;culture&#8221; more in general. Your comment #6 on the previous thread on this topic: &#8220;You seem to be implying that the only way they got into business was because of their familial connections&#8221; &#8211; in reply to Raj&#8217;s &#8220;Maybe they shouldn’t have gone into business and got an ordinary salaried job&#8221;. It&#8217;s flat denial to suggest that there was no link between Wen Jiabao&#8217;s son&#8217;s achievements and Wen&#8217;s political role as chief state councillor. Then try a google search on sewage treatment in Chinese and Wen Jiabao speeches. Now, tell me that Wen&#8217;s younger brother and his company had no advantage when it came to the related projects &#8211; and make me laugh. Then the Ping An issue as addressed by Peter Lee (see Foarp&#8217;s #66 reply to that), and the <i>ad hominem</i> accusation against slim as he calls Lee a <i>thinking man’s fenqing</i>. Granted &#8211; I&#8217;d rather refer to Lee as the <i>thinking fenqing&#8217;s favorite journalist</i>, but that difference is rather subtle.</p>
<p>If there&#8217;s something slippery, it&#8217;s how Lee congratulates the NYT on the one hand, and then points out how the whole thing wasn&#8217;t that big after all. It&#8217;s big in that it runs counter to the idea that this or that quarter of the CCP was &#8220;clean&#8221;, especially Wen himself &#8211; a supposedly indefatigable fighter against corruption. Lee&#8217;s let&#8217;s-look-into-the-likelihood-of-the-allegations-one-by-one approach simply does what the NYT had done before.</p>
<p>&#8220;[T]he Times was unfortunately unable to come up with a clear determination as to whether they were simply front companies for Wen family skullduggery or, well, partnerships that provided privileged access for wealth creation for PRC and foreign elites, some of whom were members of the Wen family&#8221; (Lee)? Tell you what: those &#8220;leading communists&#8221; are unable to come up with a clear picture of <i>their</i> share in China&#8217;s economic growth. The NYT deserves credit for every issue it has shed light on, and they have accounted for what is for sure, and what are their own conclusions. If the CCP leaders were about as accountable, they wouldn&#8217;t have to fear reports like these to the degree they do.</p>
<p>Combine that with Lee&#8217;s interpretation of China&#8217;s &#8220;mass protests&#8221; after the Senkaku purchases (as quoted by you under #49 under the &#8220;How does Japan look at the Chinese protests&#8221; post (Sept 23), and combine that with <i>your</i> comments on Richard&#8217;s &#8220;Great-Leap-Forward&#8221; thread. It&#8217;s one thing to say that ´o Grada&#8217;s criticism of Dikotters &#8220;Great Famine&#8221; is a recommendable read. It&#8217;s another to suggest that some approaches <i><a href="http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/06/the-great-leap-forward-on-film/" rel="nofollow">it all too easy for the Global Times and other nationalist Chinese media to tar and paint all Western academics with the same brush</a></i> (#72 there).<br />
As if the &#8220;Global Time&#8217;s&#8221; verdict was a standard to go by.</p>
<p>Then your comment #221 on the same thread, as Richard re-opened the thread:<br />
<i>&#8220;Somchai is posting flamebait and he knows it. Not sure why you’d reopen a comment thread to let someone post what is essentially an extended ad hominem.&#8221;</i>.</p>
<p>That, plus your idea that news about Xi Jinping&#8217;s financial situation shouldn&#8217;t have been reported, as it would lead to <i>&#8220;a lot of their mainland sources .. no longer talk(ing) to them&#8221;</i>. As if that should stop news people from doing their job.</p>
<p>These repeating patterns lead to my impression that your main interest is to see reports like these &#8211; be it Bloomberg, be it the NYT &#8211; or their impact limited.</p>
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