<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: A Confucian Constitution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/</link>
	<description>A peculiar hybrid of personal journal, dilettantish punditry, pseudo-philosophy and much more, from an Accidental Expat who has made his way from Hong Kong to Beijing to Taipei and finally back to Beijing for reasons that are still not entirely clear to him...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 23:21:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-3/#comment-190857</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-190857</guid>
		<description>&quot;Face&quot; is a complicated issue. It means different things to different people in different times. I am not sure if Confucianism was the chief force behind it. Very hard to say. Also I Don&#039;t think &quot;face&quot; was ever institutionalized, it&#039;s just a part of the social mores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Face&#8221; is a complicated issue. It means different things to different people in different times. I am not sure if Confucianism was the chief force behind it. Very hard to say. Also I Don&#8217;t think &#8220;face&#8221; was ever institutionalized, it&#8217;s just a part of the social mores.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-3/#comment-190852</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-190852</guid>
		<description>One more things: regarding foot bounding. The Confucians did not advocate this. It&#039;s just one of these social mores that started around the Song and certainly became popular by the Ming. 

Certianly if the Confucians came out to oppose it explicitly, it would have been great, but they didn&#039;t. However, neither were they really responsible for this practice. I might note that Cheng Yi, a staunch and famous Confucian of the Song era, forbade his female family members and descendents to bind their feet. There were other Confucians who opposed foot bounding as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more things: regarding foot bounding. The Confucians did not advocate this. It&#8217;s just one of these social mores that started around the Song and certainly became popular by the Ming. </p>
<p>Certianly if the Confucians came out to oppose it explicitly, it would have been great, but they didn&#8217;t. However, neither were they really responsible for this practice. I might note that Cheng Yi, a staunch and famous Confucian of the Song era, forbade his female family members and descendents to bind their feet. There were other Confucians who opposed foot bounding as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-190845</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 11:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-190845</guid>
		<description>Confucianism certainly has its problems. Nonetheless many negative things that are associated with Confucianism have also been exaggerated, such as its support for absolute obedience of an authoritarian ruler (which is not true, given a good Confucian should remonstrate against his misbehaved ruler). Read the Mencius, writings by Wang Yangming and his followers, and Huang Zongxi for examples of this. These people I just mentioned do want moral, intelligent and independent-minded individuals and ministers to stand up against their rulers if needed. They do not support authoritarianism where the ruler can do whatever he wants. As for the Sanggan principle, it was developed in the Eastern Han, it was not there at the beginning. It also did not prevent later Confucian thinkers from questioning it and not following it either. For examples, remonstrating with one&#039;s ruler and father is also advocated by Confucian texts such as the Xunzi (chapter Zidao)and the Xiaojing (chapter 15). Mencius even advocated tyrants should be do away with, which is again supported by Cheng Hao, a prominent Song Confucian. Of course, the conflict between loyalty and filial piety has been a major issue in Chinese history. Confuciansim after all, has a lot of different, diverse ideas within the teaching. The Analects is only one of the classics, not the Classic. 

As for the Confucian position on women, again a complicated topic. Let&#039;s just say while women did not have an equal position to men within Confucian teachings, they were also not as low as some people make them out to be. Also, status of women in Chinese society does change overtime in her long history. One can read works by Dorothy Ko and Patricia Ebrey on this topic for more. 

Also, Confucianism has not had much influence in modern China anyway. Anti-traditionalism has had the upper-hand. These days, the CCP are not really promoting Confucianism either. Schools are not really teaching it. The CCP certainly don&#039;t encourage political remonstrations, which is central to Confuciansim. The CCP members know very little about Confucianism, and many of them are still against it, due to Marxist teachings. Therefore, the CCP is not a Confucian government, it is basically devoid of Confucian content. In addition, most Chinese don&#039;t really practice Confucianism, nor do they know much about it. Many of them are also against it. All of these have been the case since the May 4th. 

As for Jiang Qing, really, not that many Chinese are truly paying attention to him either. So I think he has very little influence. Danile Bell&#039;s ideas also won&#039;t work in China today, given there are really no Confucians scholars left. It would be very very difficult to train them again, since most Chinese don&#039;t have good classical langauge skills anymore. In modern China, there is a loss of faith of tradition, which still exist today among perhaps the great majority of Chinese population. So overall, I don&#039;t think Jiang and Bell can do much with their ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Confucianism certainly has its problems. Nonetheless many negative things that are associated with Confucianism have also been exaggerated, such as its support for absolute obedience of an authoritarian ruler (which is not true, given a good Confucian should remonstrate against his misbehaved ruler). Read the Mencius, writings by Wang Yangming and his followers, and Huang Zongxi for examples of this. These people I just mentioned do want moral, intelligent and independent-minded individuals and ministers to stand up against their rulers if needed. They do not support authoritarianism where the ruler can do whatever he wants. As for the Sanggan principle, it was developed in the Eastern Han, it was not there at the beginning. It also did not prevent later Confucian thinkers from questioning it and not following it either. For examples, remonstrating with one&#8217;s ruler and father is also advocated by Confucian texts such as the Xunzi (chapter Zidao)and the Xiaojing (chapter 15). Mencius even advocated tyrants should be do away with, which is again supported by Cheng Hao, a prominent Song Confucian. Of course, the conflict between loyalty and filial piety has been a major issue in Chinese history. Confuciansim after all, has a lot of different, diverse ideas within the teaching. The Analects is only one of the classics, not the Classic. </p>
<p>As for the Confucian position on women, again a complicated topic. Let&#8217;s just say while women did not have an equal position to men within Confucian teachings, they were also not as low as some people make them out to be. Also, status of women in Chinese society does change overtime in her long history. One can read works by Dorothy Ko and Patricia Ebrey on this topic for more. </p>
<p>Also, Confucianism has not had much influence in modern China anyway. Anti-traditionalism has had the upper-hand. These days, the CCP are not really promoting Confucianism either. Schools are not really teaching it. The CCP certainly don&#8217;t encourage political remonstrations, which is central to Confuciansim. The CCP members know very little about Confucianism, and many of them are still against it, due to Marxist teachings. Therefore, the CCP is not a Confucian government, it is basically devoid of Confucian content. In addition, most Chinese don&#8217;t really practice Confucianism, nor do they know much about it. Many of them are also against it. All of these have been the case since the May 4th. </p>
<p>As for Jiang Qing, really, not that many Chinese are truly paying attention to him either. So I think he has very little influence. Danile Bell&#8217;s ideas also won&#8217;t work in China today, given there are really no Confucians scholars left. It would be very very difficult to train them again, since most Chinese don&#8217;t have good classical langauge skills anymore. In modern China, there is a loss of faith of tradition, which still exist today among perhaps the great majority of Chinese population. So overall, I don&#8217;t think Jiang and Bell can do much with their ideas.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The unintended consequence of the &#8220;China-as-meritocracy&#8221; debates &#187; The Peking Duck</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-188328</link>
		<dc:creator>The unintended consequence of the &#8220;China-as-meritocracy&#8221; debates &#187; The Peking Duck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-188328</guid>
		<description>[...] You can find a spirited Peking Duck thread on the meritocracy argument here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] You can find a spirited Peking Duck thread on the meritocracy argument here. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: &#8220;The Chinese Way&#8221; &#187; The Peking Duck</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-182723</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;The Chinese Way&#8221; &#187; The Peking Duck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-182723</guid>
		<description>[...] bizarre Daniel Bell-Jiang Qing op-ed op-ed on a &#8220;Confucian constitution&#8221; that set off a spirited debate in this thread. You remember: the one about a Confucian meritocracy system, in which leaders in at least one [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bizarre Daniel Bell-Jiang Qing op-ed op-ed on a &#8220;Confucian constitution&#8221; that set off a spirited debate in this thread. You remember: the one about a Confucian meritocracy system, in which leaders in at least one [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JR&#8217;s China Soft Power Summary, July 2012 &#124; SinoMondiale</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-181184</link>
		<dc:creator>JR&#8217;s China Soft Power Summary, July 2012 &#124; SinoMondiale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-181184</guid>
		<description>[...] on July 10: &#8220;A Confucian Constitution for China&#8221;. Bizarre (and possibly funny) stuff from a foreign perspective. Bizarre, too, but also worrying stuff from a secular Chinese perspective. Worrying, because in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on July 10: &#8220;A Confucian Constitution for China&#8221;. Bizarre (and possibly funny) stuff from a foreign perspective. Bizarre, too, but also worrying stuff from a secular Chinese perspective. Worrying, because in [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: goju</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-179130</link>
		<dc:creator>goju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-179130</guid>
		<description>Why would the NYT publish this?  Consider its readership.  What percentage of its readers - national or global - have any knowledge or understanding of Confucian thought?  This article probably sounds deeply philosophical to many NYT readers.  Confucianism has a romantic mysticism for much of the west.  Picture a bunch of benevolent bureaucrats with Fu Manchu beards wandering around in silk robes spouting quotes from Confucious.  

Full disclosure; although I do not subscribe to the above misconception, I in now way claim any knowledge or understanding of Confucian thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would the NYT publish this?  Consider its readership.  What percentage of its readers &#8211; national or global &#8211; have any knowledge or understanding of Confucian thought?  This article probably sounds deeply philosophical to many NYT readers.  Confucianism has a romantic mysticism for much of the west.  Picture a bunch of benevolent bureaucrats with Fu Manchu beards wandering around in silk robes spouting quotes from Confucious.  </p>
<p>Full disclosure; although I do not subscribe to the above misconception, I in now way claim any knowledge or understanding of Confucian thought.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cookie Monster</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-179073</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie Monster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 18:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-179073</guid>
		<description>The general lack of respect for women, I would say, has a lot to do with the general lack of respect for everyone but a tiny minority of powerful men (and their female associates).

No one seems to have any sympathy for men in &quot;traditionally&quot; dangerous jobs that are crippled and killed when they aren&#039;t being underpaid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The general lack of respect for women, I would say, has a lot to do with the general lack of respect for everyone but a tiny minority of powerful men (and their female associates).</p>
<p>No one seems to have any sympathy for men in &#8220;traditionally&#8221; dangerous jobs that are crippled and killed when they aren&#8217;t being underpaid.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: S.K. Cheung</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-179071</link>
		<dc:creator>S.K. Cheung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-179071</guid>
		<description>&quot;There’s a reason why murder, assault and rape against women in Confucian societies is so much lower than your much-vaunted wonderful chivalrous West.&quot;
---that&#039;s actually probably true.  On the balance, there does seem to be less outright violence against women in China than in &quot;the west&quot;, and even less still in comparison to Islamic states.

However, in the grand scheme of male-chauvinism and under-respect for women, that seems to be a world-wide phenomenon.  Ultimately, if it is happening, I don&#039;t think it makes much difference whether it occurs in the name of religion, culture, or whatever else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There’s a reason why murder, assault and rape against women in Confucian societies is so much lower than your much-vaunted wonderful chivalrous West.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;that&#8217;s actually probably true.  On the balance, there does seem to be less outright violence against women in China than in &#8220;the west&#8221;, and even less still in comparison to Islamic states.</p>
<p>However, in the grand scheme of male-chauvinism and under-respect for women, that seems to be a world-wide phenomenon.  Ultimately, if it is happening, I don&#8217;t think it makes much difference whether it occurs in the name of religion, culture, or whatever else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cookie Monster</title>
		<link>http://www.pekingduck.org/2012/07/a-confucian-constitution/comment-page-2/#comment-179069</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie Monster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=10396#comment-179069</guid>
		<description>Raj
&lt;i&gt;I’m not so sure why it had to take so much prodding on my part for you to say that. Still, I do appreciate you saying it so clearly.&lt;/i&gt;

Drop your tiresome white knight act. If Confucianism stood in the way of Christianity and Islam in China, it only benefited them on balance.

Other than that, Confucianism barred women from intellectual posts they often deserved, but also lessened punishment dealt to them. It often made mothers powerful as well.

There&#039;s a reason why murder, assault and rape against women in Confucian societies is so much lower than your much-vaunted wonderful chivalrous West.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raj<br />
<i>I’m not so sure why it had to take so much prodding on my part for you to say that. Still, I do appreciate you saying it so clearly.</i></p>
<p>Drop your tiresome white knight act. If Confucianism stood in the way of Christianity and Islam in China, it only benefited them on balance.</p>
<p>Other than that, Confucianism barred women from intellectual posts they often deserved, but also lessened punishment dealt to them. It often made mothers powerful as well.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a reason why murder, assault and rape against women in Confucian societies is so much lower than your much-vaunted wonderful chivalrous West.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
