Say anything

This is an open thread, presuming I have any readers left who may want to chat. Apologies about the post below. Talk about Chen Guangcheng’s incredible escape, or the Bo Xilai soap opera or anything else.

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Richard Burger is the author of Behind the Red Door: Sex in China, an exploration of China's sexual revolution and its clash with traditional Chinese values.

The Discussion: 117 Comments

Cutting Meat against the grain shows the idiocy of Americans.

Cutting meat against grain works only for one situation, that is if you want to cut the meat into 1 to 2 mm thick, but most Europeans and Americans cannot achieve that anyway.

Europeans and Americans pork and beef steaks are all cut against grain, this is so stupid. They think cutting against grain breaks the fiber and makes it easy to chew.

In reality, if the meat is not cooked for a long time, cutting against grain will not decrease the toughness of the meat, and will make it get stuck into your teeth. Whenever I eat Western style pork or beef steak, I get a headache: the meat is tough, and it sticks to my teeth. That’s why Europeans and Americans invented teeth strings, and many cases of choking death, because they can’t chew the meat and try to swallow it as is.

Most Chinese people with common living sense know that meat should be cut with the grain, not against.

Because of the low intelliegence of Europeans and Americans and lack of common sense, they never understand why pork and steak must be cut with the grain. Even if European and American elites read this, they won’t change their behavior, because their brains are ossified, they ossified themselves, even if they understand the problem, they won’t take any action to correct it.

April 28, 2012 @ 7:09 am | Comment

I believe Chen Guangcheng’s escape signals the downfall of Zhou Yongkang and the huge “stability-maintenance” machine.

April 28, 2012 @ 7:44 am | Comment

All is not hopeless after all…there are still Chinese who are willing to put themselves at risk for what is right. He Peirong is one gutsy woman.

April 28, 2012 @ 8:25 am | Comment

Will this lead to something momentous? Or will it end as usual, with a few more broken bodies and many shattered hopes?

Much depends on whether CGC is holed up in the US Embassy and whether Wen Jiabao has responded to him. It may be a good sign that nothing is happening in public. But that could also mean merely that the people at the top are having trouble agreeing how to react.

Interesting times.

April 28, 2012 @ 9:18 am | Comment

CGC’s message to Wen will severely weaken the hand of Chinese reformists in the upcoming elections. His escape itself is not politically significant, but the tape is. This will make reformists that much more reluctant to associate themselves with political liberalization.

Obviously can’t speak for CGC here, but couldn’t he have waited until after the meetings to make his escape? Would have been better for long-term reform

April 28, 2012 @ 10:36 am | Comment

On the other hand, CGC will become quite a convenient rallying cry for resuscitating the left. I’d expect Global Times and Utopia to be all over this in the coming few days.

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist or anything, but it almost makes me wonder if the United States has a vested interest in seeing Chinese politics become more polarized and acrimonious.

Why did CGC have to address his message to Premier Wen? Wen isn’t even the one in charge of security forces–his bureaucratic reach doesn’t go that far.

April 28, 2012 @ 10:40 am | Comment

@massbless

CGC’s escape will strengthen, not weaken, the Statist wing.

Maybe the US strategy with respect to China is to make the upcoming transition as bitter and divisive as possible, so that domestic political conditions will force the PLA into doing something stupid in the South China Sea.

April 28, 2012 @ 10:45 am | Comment

@ Gray Hat

Wen won’t respond to CGC. That would lose his wing all the hard-fought gains they accumulated after the Bo affair. Right now they’re actually likely in damage control.

If I were Wen, I’d ignore the whole affair and use Caijing or other reformist magazines to link CGC to Wang Lijun as examples of foreign machinations in Chinese politics.

April 28, 2012 @ 10:57 am | Comment

陈光诚, 1971年11月12日生于沂南县双堠镇东师古村。陈光诚出生五个月时,因高烧
导致青光眼,双目几乎失明。由于陈光诚从小性格孤僻、倔强,导致他心理上也不同于
常人,出人头地的想法特别强烈,看问题比较偏颇,容易产生极端想法。

Chen Guangchen, born Nov 11 1971 on Xinan Prefecture, Shuang Hou Town, Dong Gu Village. At 5 months old, due to high fever, he lost his sight. As a child, he had a alienating personality and a radicalized mentality, leading to an abnormal psychological and extreme behavior.

Spring of 2000, Chen Guangcheng, when at school in Nanjing, was contacted by “Radio Free Asia” and provided them with so called ‘information on human rights and corruption’. At the same time, he was acquianted with Han Dongfang, a Hongkong-based so called ‘democracy activist’, and again provided him with such material and in return was awarded 6800 HK dollars in cash. Later, Handong fang introduced to Chen the British Ambassador to China Wu Ruo Lan and her associates, and received 200,400 dollars in sponsorship for his ‘activities’ in China. Soon as after, he was in frequent contact with many suspect organizations overseas, continuing to provide them with “first hand material”. Using his reward money, he bought 2 luxury houses under his own name.

Nov 2005, under the pretext of ‘fighting for the rights of poor people”, Chen Guangcheng was put in charge of executing the ‘Shandong Freedom Action’ plan, organized by NED (National Endowment for Democracy, a direct affiliate of the CIA).

March 11, 2006. Chen rounded up many of his relatives and associates and blocked vehnicles on 205 Expressway for 3 hours, causing massive public disturbance. Jan 22, 2007, Lingxi Municiple People’s Court handed out a 4 year 3 months sentence to Chen for public disturbance. Chen was sent to jail on Feb 15 2007, and was released on 2010 Sept 9 after serving his full sentence.

Chen Guangcheng naively thought that by climbing up the tree of overseas anti-China forces, he would be able to enjoy a life of luxury and safety, and slowly reduced himself to a lawless citizen. To quote the words of People’s Daily on the eve of its offensive against Vietnam, Chen has ‘found the wrong boss, and miscalculated his life’

China is a socialist country with rule of law. The dignity of our laws cannot be trampled on.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:17 am | Comment

The fundamental irony in all this is that all these political machinations are being engineered by a bunch of old dudes in bad suits, while the average computer literate Chinese citizen is reduced to weibo surveys. Ahh, the ccp way.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:26 am | Comment

@ SK

I usually hate pulling the equivalency card, but you could say that American political machinations are engineered by a bunch of old dudes and Botox’d women, while the average computer literate American is reduced to opinion polls.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:33 am | Comment

Chen Guangcheng wins next year’s Nobel. Calling it here first!

April 28, 2012 @ 12:51 pm | Comment

To Red Star,
incredibly stupid as always.

None of the crap in your first 3 paragraphs justifies the fourth, which is that he was jailed for disturbing the peace or some other flimsy CCP excuse. Even if you accept that the charges against him and his subsequent conviction and incarceration are legitimate (and only the truly flaming idiots would accept that), his alleged childhood temperament and supposed prior adult acts are irrelevant.

So, Einstein, want to have a go at trying to justify what has transpired since Sept 2010, AFTER he served his sentence? This, I would love to hear.

China is a socialist regime under the CCP, sure (with loads of capitalistic Chinese characteristics, no less). But “rule of law”? Are you on glue? On a good day, the CCP has “rule by law”, which, in case you’re wondering, is not the same thing.

Pray tell, which of these supposed laws would dignify the treatment of CGC since he completed his prison sentence?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To T-co:
some parallels, perhaps. But American machinations still have to account for what Americans want. The CCP’s machinations need not concern themselves with such petty nuisances. And while elections are but a small part of democracy, Americans do have that, which is much more than an opinion poll or a weibo survey, and is certainly much more than what Chinese citizens can say. And of course, Americans have other accoutrements of a functioning democracy, like a constitution and rule of law, and an independent judiciary, which Chinese can only dream of.( I know China has a constitution on paper, but let’s not kid ourselves). So there may be some superficial similarities, but I would hardly characterize it as equivalency.

April 28, 2012 @ 12:59 pm | Comment

Well, lets think. There are three kinds of Chinese right now. Those who are normally educated ( which can be next to none ), those who dress in the goverment clothing, and those who are not in China right now. Then over the course of years of trail and error they recycle each other. So why can’t those who are really amart enough to understand right from wrong, just do what obviously, simply needs to be done, and with all their knowledge and love just shape their nation for a better and stronger China. It is like in United States, where many of the officers were once former criminals, and they give birth to little criminals, and so forth. The criminal creation will not end until the entire force is made of non-criminals, simple as that. The world is alive, and you must play your part in it’s role. Once upon a time, street gangs were turning in other street gangs, and now they are just a bunch of brainwashed youths, playing a part which has no true end.

April 28, 2012 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Here’s another irony. On the one hand, you have the CCP gas-bags waxing poetic about how Bo Xilai will be investigated up the wazoo in accordance with the law yada yada. Even Wen has said this. And on the other, you’ve got CGC, who had to escape in order to leave his own house. Where’s Wen when you need him, eh?

April 28, 2012 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

I don’t think Mr. Chen’s escape will have a big impact on either side – neither Zhou Yongkang & Cie., nor the “reformists”. But his getaway, and what’s preceded it, has all the makings to become part of modern-day Chinese folklore. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

Maybe Chen Guangcheng is the “soft power” the CCP’s “public diplomacy” is so desperately seeking for.

April 28, 2012 @ 2:17 pm | Comment

There is so much fail in this thread already that it actually RULES. Keep at it y’allzies! :)

April 28, 2012 @ 2:30 pm | Comment

The thing is, I really can’t see how things are going to turn out from here. If they catch CGC in Beijing, are they really going to send him back to Linyi?

April 28, 2012 @ 2:36 pm | Comment

@ Gil

Nope. Likeliest outcome is that CGC is shipped out when Hilary comes, but his family will stay in Linyi.

April 28, 2012 @ 3:10 pm | Comment

Oh, and if anyone needs an example of why the whole “central govt = good, local govt = bad” line was always baloney, CGC’s case is as good an example as any.

@t_co – CGC should have stayed in until after the leadership handover? You are joking right?

Since the beginning of the gradual tightening of government controls in 2007-8, people have again and again assumed that at some point in the near future controls would be loosened off. First it was assumed that it would end after the Tibet riots ended, then the Olympics, then it was assumed a special measure caused by Charter 08, then the Xinjiang riots, then it was assumed that they would end after the 60th anniversary of the PRC – and whilst a slight loosening did occur in some cases, the general trend was clearly towards greater control, on the internet and elsewhere. Now we’re told this is paranoia caused by the Arab Spring (never mind that the wave of arrests of human rights activists associated with Charter 08 preceded it) and after the leadership change things should settle down. Frankly, I don’t buy it.

April 28, 2012 @ 3:12 pm | Comment

@t_co – Out of the country? What if, like LXB, he refuses exile?

April 28, 2012 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

@Gil

Frankly reform in China is pretty fragile because none of the gains of the past 5 years have been set in stone. The gains have not come because of the government–rather, they are technological. While you might think that the controls have tightened since 2007, the rise of Weibo and creation of 200 million additional internet users have created an online civil society. Without the opportunity to cement these institutions in place in a formal political ceremony like the upcoming Congress, then we risk a lot of backsliding.

What Wen is really trying to do right now is to formally induct China’s online society into the Chinese establishment. This would make this online civil society safe. From this angle, CGC’s address to Wen Jiabao from a US Embassy just touches all the wrong nerves. Since Wen, for better or worse, is the head of reform wing of the Party, Wen doesn’t need to be tarred with the brush of a high-profile dissident months before risking all of his remaining political capital on this move.

April 28, 2012 @ 5:38 pm | Comment

@Gil

To the Party heavyweights that Wen will have to convince, this sort of message would be akin to an October Surprise where Bradley Manning escapes to the Chinese embassy and then calls upon Barack Obama to protect his family from FBI surveillance.

April 28, 2012 @ 5:41 pm | Comment

I’m not questioning CGC’s sense of right or wrong here–only his value judgment in endangering the current push for reform when such a trend is far from certain.

April 28, 2012 @ 5:43 pm | Comment

@Gil

CGC wouldn’t refuse exile, or else why would he make a beeline for the Embassy?

April 28, 2012 @ 5:45 pm | Comment

What’s the alternative for CGC? Waiting for Wen to expend precious political capital to save him? Wen doesn’t even have the bureaucratic reach to do that–he’d have to reach into Zhou Yongkang’s area to pull that sort of maneuver. Even though Zhou is weaker now than a year ago, it’d still take a consensus amongst all nine members of the Standing Committee to do something like that.

Since saving him is out, CGC could then try to disappear into Chinese society without any official protection. That won’t work since the Linyi government could cause distress to CGC’s family if CGC stays quiet. So that’s out. Staying in Beijing and remaining visible appears plausible but would require a wealthy patron to keep him fed. That won’t work since wealthy patrons by extension require some sort of implicit political backing, and no Party member would sacrifice their own career to do that.

The only logical choice left is exile.

April 28, 2012 @ 5:56 pm | Comment

@t-co “CGC wouldn’t refuse exile, or else why would he make a beeline for the Embassy?”

No idea about his intentions, but embassy staff would be less likely to be put in prison for sheltering him.

That said, If I had to guess where he’d be in 2 years, I’d say living in the US.

April 28, 2012 @ 6:02 pm | Comment

I’m not questioning CGC’s sense of right or wrong here–only his value judgment in endangering the current push for reform when such a trend is far from certain.

Frankly, t_co, this is disgusting.

April 28, 2012 @ 7:42 pm | Comment

t_co

“I’m not questioning CGC’s sense of right or wrong here–only his value judgment in endangering the current push for reform when such a trend is far from certain.”

Is the “current trend for reform” going that well? How can someone calling for the rule of law “endanger” reforms based on the rule of law?

April 28, 2012 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

@t_co –

“CGC wouldn’t refuse exile, or else why would he make a beeline for the Embassy?”

Same could be asked of a certain other rumoured defector. More to the point, why would CGC defect whilst his family remains under arrest?

April 28, 2012 @ 10:33 pm | Comment

Why look at such a short term picture? Let’s think big folks.

Look at all the hard core drama stuff that can be churned out of CGC’s escape:

1. China will now have a new Noble Peace Prize Winner…. (maybe even winners):

I predict a new empty seat at this year’s Nobel Prize Ceremony…. for both CGC and the bunch of people who rescued him… who will have, by then, disappeared with no traces to be found…

Hmmm…. then again, maybe we will be seeing CGC and family collecting the Prize… he and his family could follow the Yu Jie route and move to the West. And when he collects his prize, he will dedicate it to the team of “brave, courageous and principled idealists who worked hard to help him escape at their own expanse”. Mmmmmm…… if I was an American State Department strategist, I would be rubbing my hands in glee and paying the Norwegian Nobel Prize Committee big bucks now :P

2. CGC will produce a new best selling series of books on the inhumanity of the CCP and will be a highly sought after guest speaker by democracy and religious activists.

Yes, you heard it here first. This guy is going to be a best-selling author. I foresee two titles already: (i) Wen Jiabao Is The Best Actor 2, and (ii) Escaping Repressive Regimes 101 – A Guide For All Future Activists And Dissidents. Do note that the second book will become an important reading list for the folks stuck in Guantanamo Bay and all those CIA black prisons…. I mean, if this man can escape 90 guards (who woulda thunk…), then they can do it too!!!

3. A new blockbuster film will be made in Hollywood on this heroic flight, escape and shelter.

We need Martin Scorsese to direct this. Or maybe even Christopher Nolan. Hey, I hear Joss Wheldon is pretty good too. This is a tale for the ages that must be immortalised on film, and will serve as a great rallying movie for any dictatorship that opposes America!

4. The Commie scum will request consultations from ex-CIA agents on how to improve their “black prison” capabilities, or maybe even build a Chinese Guantanamo.

The Commie scum will admit that there are still significant weaknesses in their “terrorist / hostiles” detention and containment policy. They will pay big bucks to a couple of ex-CIA “Neil Neywood” (the latest verb for a Westerner working for the Commie scums on questionable matters) to advise them on how to improve their…. infrastructure and policies. Heck, maybe even get them to show how waterboarding is done… I read that it was pretty effective, LOL! Case study no. 1: How to ensure a Private Manning will never ever do what he did again.

5. The CIA and Mossad will have a critical reevaluation of all their black detention and containment policies.

If this man can do it, he will serve as a beacon of escape possibilities to all those under “illegal” detention by the CIA and Mossad. They will go over their system with a fine tooth comb and make sure they won’t be the world’s next laughing stock.

6. Possibility – CGC for President of China? His tagline – how I defied an entire country and flipped my middle finger to my government. The new middle class of China will lap up his message so quickly, they will overthrow the “evul evul evul” Commie scum within a year! Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, Jiang Zemin and Xi Jinping are going to be cellmates with Bo Xilai!

Come on folks…. utilise the unlimited creativity breadth of the human mind. The possibilities with this saga are ENDLESS!

And the best thing… the story ain’t over yet *chuckle*

April 28, 2012 @ 10:44 pm | Comment

Before we jump on TE Low’s latest silly and utterly useless screed, it’s worth remembering that Richard invited us to “say anything”.

That definitely counts as saying “anything”.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:31 pm | Comment

Come on folks…. utilise the unlimited creativity breadth of the human mind.

Not everyone here is on drugs, T E Low.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:31 pm | Comment

@t_co

“I’m not questioning CGC’s sense of right or wrong here–only his value judgment in endangering the current push for reform when such a trend is far from certain.”

How can the “current push for reform” which emphasise the rule of law be endangered by someone calling for the rule of law?

April 28, 2012 @ 11:33 pm | Comment

@ JR

How is that disgusting?

April 28, 2012 @ 11:38 pm | Comment

@t_co,

How can the “current push for reform” which emphasise the rule of law be endangered by someone calling for the rule of law?mmented on JR`s post. How about mine?

April 28, 2012 @ 11:41 pm | Comment

To Gil,
I agree. Every time there is a big event on the horizon, people want to characterize it as the upcoming big turning point. That event comes and goes, and more things stay the same. It’s people placating themselves…a coping mechanism, if you will. It gives false (or at the very least, unsubstantiated) hope. And everybody needs hope, I suppose. But like you, I’ll believe it when I see it.

To T-co,
I agree, you don’t spend months planning your escape without some sort of end-game, and the end-game that comes with a visit to a foreign embassy is political asylum. But if the US refuses him like they did to Wang, he’ll have serious problems.

I wonder what the US will do. I believe their public explanation for refusing Wang was that he represented no national security interest (and certainly with some national security cost, since taking him in would surely have pissed the heck out of China). It would seem that a similar argument exists for CGC. On the other hand, Wang was part of the establishment, whereas CGC can easily make the case that he’s being persecuted. And CGC is a far more sympathetic character to the US public. The calculus will be interesting on this one.

To TE Low,
you’ve never been more right in your life. And in CGC’s acceptance speeches, he can thank the CCP profusely, since he owes the entirety of his international notoriety to the CCP’s uncompromising dedication to the upholding of the law…with Chinese characteristics of course.

As usual, if you’re looking for someone to blame here, it’s the CCP. This doesn’t happen without the CCP’s culture of corruption and persecution, and pettiness amongst the Linyi types.

On the other hand, CGC’s illegal detention sounds like yet another big exercise in corruption, so while this incident makes them the world’s current laughing stock, I don’t think the unique circumstances are likely to be replicated elsewhere. That should allow you to sleep better at night.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

It’s disgusting because it suggests that a man in an extreme situation should take – alleged – infighting within the political leadership into account – struggles that may not even exist. You might as well suggest that Chen should have been “more considerate about his family”. You put lipstick on a pig (suggesting that the CCP may be in a process of improving), and you insult an honest man, t_co. Chen had no reason to believe that staying where he was would “help his country” – and advising him to do so because you think otherwise is disgusting.

April 28, 2012 @ 11:57 pm | Comment

@ a couple of the amusing folks above…

Well, I am not sure whether I am on drugs or not. What I am sure about is the utter hilarity of some of the reactions and cheering on this blog. The way some of you writhe about in ecstasy at this “big slap” to the good old CPC’s face. You folks reminded me of one thing…. the cheering and celebration many folks of the Middle East did when the planes slammed into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on 911.

Seriously, some of the things on this blog are awesome…. some very good point of views and arguments are given that encourages people to think seriously about world issues (irregardless of whether those direct issues have an impact on us or not…). The rest are just…. sheer entertainment value, LOL!!! I guess I do get my money’s worth reading the opinions here… ^_^

April 29, 2012 @ 12:35 am | Comment

@ SK

Precisely my point. CGC had months (or years) to think about what to do and the likely effects thereof.

@ JR

First, please note that the statement I made only relates to CGC’s video address to Wen Jiabao, not his act of escaping itself.

If CGC is an activist or dissident, then his responsibility is not only to himself or his family, but to his movement, to his set of ideas. The video is counterproductive to that set of ideas, for reasons discussed above. That’s all. Regardless of his intentions in making the video, we have to judge them by their effects. And they will create a chilling effect in the push for reform prior to the 18th Congress.

April 29, 2012 @ 12:38 am | Comment

You folks reminded me of one thing…. the cheering and celebration many folks of the Middle East did when the planes slammed into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on 911.

It says something about you if you would compare an act of terrorism with a blind man running to a foreign in desperation.

April 29, 2012 @ 12:45 am | Comment

I want to second Raj on the imbecility of TE Low’s analogy. It is repellent.

There are several new comments up above that got stuck in my spam filter, so you may want to scroll through the thread to see what you missed.

April 29, 2012 @ 1:08 am | Comment

TE Low is the second coming of Red Star, Merp, and those other birds of a feather. Cut from the same intellectual cloth. Although TE comes with the added tendency of saying “irregardless”, the more for our amusement.

And just so he’s consistent with his intellectual brethren, not a peep about CGC’s illegal detention, but lots of useless fluff as in #32, not to mention the crappy and reprehensible “logic” of #40. Typical. And predictable.

To T-co,
thanks for the clarification in #41. I had the same impression as JR, that you were superimposing grand political considerations onto a guy merely trying to escape illegal detention.

But I agree that the video puts him in a different category. It does come across like a throw-down to Wen. Given the history of CCP types when they’re put in a tight spot, the prospects are not hopeful.

April 29, 2012 @ 2:26 am | Comment

First, please note that the statement I made only relates to CGC’s video address to Wen Jiabao, not his act of escaping itself.

My apologies, t_co. I misread that. I agree that Chen shouldn’t have addressed Wen Jiabao in particular. But to which push of reform are you referring?

April 29, 2012 @ 2:35 am | Comment

Cheung, it seems to me that in the situation Cheng – and especially his relatives – are in now, he clutches to the Wen-Jiabao straw, just as many people do when they want to see something “good” in the central leadership. But who wants to condemn that – as wrong as it may be? Gao Zhisheng apparently tried to turn around altogether – he was finished. But he had tried. He had been a man of courage, before he was broken.

April 29, 2012 @ 2:40 am | Comment

how amusing! first the poor guy has to spend several years in jail and under illegal house arrest (illegal even by Chinese laws), but once he gets out of there (some of his sleeping “minders” will soon change place with him), his first concern should be not to let poor uncle Wen loose his precious face…

April 29, 2012 @ 3:25 am | Comment

To JR,
having never even come close to walking a step in CGC’s shoes, I certainly won’t judge what he’s done, let alone condemn it. Appealing to Wen, as the figurehead of this supposed reform movement, however sputtering, halting, tentative, and negligible it’s been, makes sense on certain levels. And I certainly wouldn’t begrudge CGC holding out some hope for the “good” in the Politburo. Even in the video, he seems to frame some of the overt corruption as a blight that the CCP shouldn’t condone, and would want to clean up if only they were aware of the extent of the rot. Of course, I don’t think his plight in particular, nor the concepts of which he speaks in general, are of much interest to the CCP.

However, I don’t anticipate his appeal to Wen will bear much fruit.

April 29, 2012 @ 5:24 am | Comment

Thinking about it, Chen’s direct speech to Wen Jiabao isn’t wrong. I don’t believe that there will be a push for reform – the removal of Bo Xilai wasn’t reform; it was an enforcement of party discipline, by CCP logic. Bo looked like a loose cannon to the “collective leadership”.

Even if there were a genuine struggle for political reforms, Cheng’s message could cut both ways, and be used by either school.

The most reliable document we have on the CCP’s collective position re reforms is this document from the politbureau/central committee itself. There is no way to read a preparedness for political reforms into it, certainly not for the coming five years.

And different from propaganda mouthpieces and their editorials or reports, central committee decisions come closest to what is really negotiated, and negotiable – and what is not.

April 29, 2012 @ 1:14 pm | Comment

To Cheung:

I believe the party will try to get past this rather quickly. But until that is done, Fifty-Centers will continue to spread rumours <a href="http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22%E9%99%88%E5%85%89%E8%AF%9A%22+%22%E5%AF%BC%E8%87%B4%E4%BB%96%E5%BF%83%E7%90%86%E4%B8%8A%E4%B9%9F%E4%B8%8D%E5%90%8C%E4%BA%8E+%E5%B8%B8%E4%BA%BA%22&oq=%22%E9%99%88%E5%85%89%E8%AF%9A%22+%22%E5%AF%BC%E8%87%B4%E4%BB%96%E5%BF%83%E7%90%86%E4%B8%8A%E4%B9%9F%E4%B8%8D%E5%90%8C%E4%BA%8E+%E5%B8%B8%E4%BA%BA%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.3…22935.24096.1.24728.3.3.0.0.0.0.208.522.0j2j1.3.0.bhHt4z3jGSw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=32e23717babcd392&biw=1024&bih=605" that Chen suffers from some kind of personality disorder (compare #9).

April 29, 2012 @ 1:41 pm | Comment

HTML correction:

I believe the party will try to get past this rather quickly. But until that is done, Fifty-Centers will continue to spread rumours that Chen suffers from some kind of personality disorder (compare #9).

April 29, 2012 @ 1:42 pm | Comment

HTML correction 2:

The link is here.

April 29, 2012 @ 1:43 pm | Comment

Correction 3: just click the messy one I used three comments ago – at least it works.

April 29, 2012 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

To JR,
on your google search, if you go to the first link, you get the original Chinese version of what the estimable Red Star posted in #9. So I actually owe Red Star an apology. He’s not the idiot…well, he is an idiot, but not as exemplified by #9; the person who wrote the original version of #9 is the idiot. However, to just translate something and pass it off as his own is also uncool on Red Star’s part. But you gotta love the symmetry of one CCP apologist translating the work of another. Must just feel so natural to them.

April 29, 2012 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

There are so many lemmings that I can’t really discern the one which lept first, Cheung. ;)

Are you referring to this link? Why should it be the original comment?

April 29, 2012 @ 3:57 pm | Comment

Just wait until Hillary Clinton arrives next week…

April 29, 2012 @ 6:51 pm | Comment

I’m curious as to why nobody seems to be questioning the credibility of the escape story. It (blind man scaling walls, slipping past tens of guards undetected) all seems rather a lot to believe.

Nobody else skeptical?

April 29, 2012 @ 7:22 pm | Comment

No, not really, Jim. Much of the secrecy around it probably owes to the fact that there were people who helped him.

April 29, 2012 @ 9:24 pm | Comment

Blind people who remain in one home for a long period of time can get around perfectly well. They know where everything is and can navigate almost as if they can see. Ask anyone who has worked with blind people. I had a cat that went blind after living in my home for many years. She knew where the pet door was, went outside and walked around the yard and found the pet door again and came inside. She knew where the couch was and jumped onto it when she wanted to sleep. It is entirely possible that Chen found the wall and scaled it, and then got help from a driver. It’s amazing, but it is entirely within the realm of possibility.

April 30, 2012 @ 12:48 am | Comment

On another note, I assume most of you are older than me and hence wiser about this–

A lot of my friends are getting married. We’re all in our early twenties. Is that a wise choice?

Do people actually get married over sharing an apartment? Seems to be the trend, but is that actually causal and not correlative?

April 30, 2012 @ 12:57 am | Comment

@ A couple of folks above:

Imbecility is a condition that affects both sides of the spectrum. A few of you may think of me as an imbecile, but don’t worry, the feeling is mutual :)

The thing that … amuses me about this whole CGC escape story are only two facts. Before this “great” escape story, I was solely in the CGC camp. Both feet planted firmly in the ground there. Completely did not agree with the way he and his family was treated. Even did tell off one or two folks with … influence (hehe… I am bull-crapping here) about my thoughts on this matter. Wanted the Commie party to take a step back on the fellow.

Then of all the places, this guy had to take shelter in the American embassy. The AMERICAN EMBASSY.

CGC, a great “force for human rights in China due to his love for his country” has to get “protection” from the one country that is one of the WORST CURRENT ABUSERS of human rights in the history of mankind. Compound that with the fact that he went to the embassy of the ONE COUNTRY that stands to gain THE MOST from a China that is either stumbling, chaotic, undergoing regime change or revolution, or just getting buffeted with negative publicity.

He goes to the embassy of the ONE COUNTRY where black jails and the practice of “spiriting away” without trial is an art that has been mastered to almost its fullest extent.

Sorry, my sympathies for him and his “human rights” stuff just got discounted by half.

Now, let’s add the fact that he had to make a public statement while he was in the embassy (probably). A PUBLIC STATEMENT that gets transmitted WORLDWIDE. And you know that once you have embarrassed the Commie Party… heck, any ruling party for that matter… there is no way in hell they are going to back down on this matter, nor will they allow a compromise solution to be reached so easily without being seen as weak and not in control, or worst still, pandering or conceding to a hostile foreign power. So 3 things are practically certain here as a result of his action: (i) a compromise solution is going to be extremely difficult to reach without the Commie party losing face, and thus, a solution is going to be long time coming, (ii) he has consciously, purposefully and effectively put his family and helpers into (mortal) danger (he might be able to swing a deal for his family, but his helpers will definitely bear the brunt of the punishment, and (iii) he has given a hostile power a CLEAR and PUBLIC chip to use against the Commie Party (and heck, even China).

This action immediately brings me to question what is the agenda or calculation behind his actions. Is he really trying to save himself? Is he trying to “rally” China’s Spring? Or is he actually allowing himself and his family to be used as a tool? If the last one is true, then he will have revealed himself to be a most disgusting and selfish person in essence, since it would not be him suffering, but his family and the people who helped him.

If his motives are pure, than his action (or that of his team) in making that public speech was probably (in my opinion anyway) a very poorly thought out move. Only time will tell how actually stupid it will turn out to be.

Seriously… some of you folks may think me an imbecile…. but I am happy that you think so. It is good to know that ignorance / lack of foresight is still an affliction affecting many folks in this world, or else it will be hard for me to have an edge in life!

P.S. You know what I would have done if I were in his situation? I would have arranged for MY FAMILY to escape, and I would stay back and become a martyr for them. At least firstly, I do not let my family suffer, secondly, the words that they speak out would be a lot more effective in getting the Commie Party to change its mind, and thirdly, I would become an even greater symbol for the human rights fight in China. Imagine the storyline: Great human rights campaigner arranges for family to escape when he could have done so, and instead, stays back to bear the punishment on their behalf. That would cause a MAJOR FIRESTORM both outside China AND inside! Sorry, but whatever he did… he mucked it up BIG TIME.

P.S.S. And please, let’s not compare the Wang Lijun matter with CGC’s running to the Americans. Wang Lijun could very well have been a scumbag, while this guy was supposed to stand for a lot of good things. He has just symbolically shattered a lot of what he stood for.

April 30, 2012 @ 2:31 am | Comment

Even if people want to compare the U.S. human rights record and the Chinese here, it doesn’t actually matter in this context. What matters is that a U.S. consulate or embassy is the best choice for someone in Chen’s situation, because any other country would be more likely to give in to pressure from the Chinese government to extradite a refugee.

April 30, 2012 @ 4:42 am | Comment

Re #60: I think people can marry with all kinds of previous histories – but when they constantly share an apartment after marriage, I believe that this apartment should provide one individual room for each partner so that they can retreat from each other once in a while.

April 30, 2012 @ 4:47 am | Comment

If they feel that they must share everything in their lives, all the time, my personal view is that they are too young to marry, even if they are much older than in their twenties. Otherwise, age isn’t that much of a standard to judge the likely success of a marriage.

April 30, 2012 @ 4:49 am | Comment

Did anyone else notice the Global Times opinion piece about the NYT was authored by “Chen Chenchen”? Somebody at GT being tounge in cheek?

April 30, 2012 @ 5:58 am | Comment

To TE Low,
…and if you were in CGC’s shoes, where would you go? Would you just walk into some Beijing police station and ask for protection? LOL. As JR says, you go to the place which is most likely to provide you safe haven in the immediate term, AND least likely to simply put you out for slaughter in the short/intermediate term in the face of some diplomatic pressure. Not to mention that members of the US administration have already gone on record as opposing your recent treatment. The US embassy was the one and only logical choice. The other stuff you people like to go on and on about is completely irrelevant here. If there’s one thing you people need to learn (and obviously there are many things), it’s relevance.

Simply starting to treat CGC in accordance with the law (as opposed to the extra-judicial stuff that’s been going on for 18 months) is hardly the leading edge of regime change or revolution. You folks need to go easy with the rabid hyperbole. On second thought, respect for the rule of law (as opposed to mere rule BY law) would represent a sea-change for the CCP, wouldn’t it? LOL).

Many here have already expressed reservations to varying degrees about the video. THe CCP loves face, and CGC’s video slapped that around pretty good. So I agree, it makes a climb-down pretty difficult. On the other hand, CGC’s plight wasn’t exactly a well-kept secret. Any adjustment of his treatment in the future would’ve represented a climb-down to some degree. He’s simply removed any conceivable notion of doubt about his circumstances by providing specifics and naming names. Is his video going to help his situation? Probably not. Is his video going to hurt his situation? Possibly…but that requires you to also believe that his situation was going to get better, and one wonders about the basis for any such belief based on what has transpired to date.

I don’t know about the logistics of his escape. Would it have been preferable if his wife, child, and elderly mother escaped with him? Of course. Was it feasible/possible? I guess not…since they didn’t. I assume it’s easier to smuggle one person out at night rather than 4, even if that one person is blind. I love how you people make base-less assumptions. ‘yeah, I’ll just book an escape vehicle on expedia, phone a friend, burn a life-line, and “arranged for MY FAMILY to escape”.’ Yep, I’ll bet that’s the type of foresight that gives you your edge. What a joke!

April 30, 2012 @ 6:34 am | Comment

One of the better aspects of Chen’s escape is the really dismal future now confronted by his Black Hand minders. A blind man scales a six foot fence and hits the road. Face goes up the ladder and excrement flows down.Those charcters will be flat out getting a security position in some dead end Gansu village.

Other than that, it is too early to predict any big outcomes.

Another happy thought is that problems come in odd numbers, so lets wait for the next pre-handover embarrassment.

April 30, 2012 @ 7:22 am | Comment

@t_co

Age and wisdom are not causal, nor even necessarily correlative. The question that begs to be asked is this: Why is marriage a prerequisite to sharing an apartment?

April 30, 2012 @ 9:13 am | Comment

If stories of the beatings of CGC’s wife, mother, and daughter are true, one must appreciate the desperate state he is in. To fault him with going to the US embassy or not having the reformists grand interests at heart is pure lunacy. Where else is he going to turn for help? 站着说话不腰痛,At this point in time, the more publicity the safer it would be for his loved ones.

April 30, 2012 @ 9:26 am | Comment

@Richard #59:

CNN Update: Missing chinese dissident Chen Guangcheng, initially thought to be in hiding at the US embassy in Beijing, has been found in a field outside his home village of Dongshigu, Shandong province. Local police confirm that the dissident, who lost his sight at a young age, was trying, unsuccessfully, to catch pigeons.

April 30, 2012 @ 10:56 am | Comment

Apparently, people related to CGC, people who supposedly helped him escape, and people who were in contact with him since his escape like Hu Jia, are now being rounded up by “security forces”, presumably for “questioning” and maybe some other extra-curricular activities. I suppose I’m being naive…but I wonder what the legal pretense is for that. I mean, after all, China is governed by laws…or so I’m told. CGC isn’t a fugitive, since he served his prison sentence and has “legally” been a free man for over 18 months. These people, all they did was associate with a “free” man, which (and I’m no Chinese legal expert) I believe is not illegal. So all this security activity seems very peculiar to me…maybe some wise guy like TE Low can help me make sense of it all. LOL.

April 30, 2012 @ 11:44 am | Comment

You are getting it all wrong, KT. It’s all very bad. The goons in charge of Chen and his family had a tough childhood under pre-liberation landlords and are therefore mentally devastated. It’s all the fault of Old China, and if the math of this doesn’t make sense, it is still true, because it must be Old China‘s fault.

Of course, America, too, is Old China, and Chen wants feudalism to return and to make slaves of all Chinese people. Uncle Wen is crying every night. Have you never thought about that?

*sigh*

April 30, 2012 @ 2:26 pm | Comment

Cheung, aren’t you underestimating the intelligence of us readers? I think TE Low’s comment on Chen taking refuge in the American embassy was something that should be addressed, but basically, Low is just a bigmouth, and people should look at his comments and draw their own conclusions. In most cases, there is no need to put that kind of stuff into perspective.

April 30, 2012 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

TE Low needs to apologize to imbeciles for insultingly comparing himself to them.

May 1, 2012 @ 1:32 am | Comment

Late last week BBC Radio interviewed Michael Anti and Old China Hand Jeremy Goldkorn of Danwei on the ongoing Bo Xilai saga.

Michael Anti made some decent comments on the selective nature of govt censorship and how netizens viewed the whole Bo/Gu business as (following my lead) as an ongoing ‘mini-series’.

When asked for his take, Mr Goldkorn said that something ‘big, bad and ugly’ took place in Chongqing, and then went on to point out that western commentators were unlikely to asertain the real facts simply because they were unable to penetrate Chcina’s opaque political culture. (China was sort of an enigma wrapped in a paradox and then surrounded by a few onion skins.)

Now if we accept this pearl of wisdom, then presumably most commenters on this and similar sites are simply wasting their keyboard efforts and indulging in pure fiction and conjecture.

A really profound, turf-protecting observation on par with some of Shaun Rein’s more hilarious moments.

Now Mr Goldkorn often turns up on SBS and ABC Oz national tv broadcasters. He is always interviewed in what appears to be a study backgrounded by shelves of books (so neatly aligned they must have been purchased by the metre from HOBA), heavy antique desk (probably veneered, and not Indonesian hardwood) and wearing those tres serious Henry K specs.

Lots of visual gravitas, but again always little of substance that one couldn’t extract from google news reader in a matter of minutes.

May 1, 2012 @ 8:52 am | Comment

The book shelves may not be Mr. Goldkorn’s choice. I think those are wallpapers beamed in after those interviews are taken. Television is nothing to be believed, and if its soundtracks were broadcast on the radio, people would wonder wtf that was, most of the time.

And sure, something big, bad and ugly took place in Chongqing – red-song-singalongs. But they were never a secret.

May 1, 2012 @ 2:57 pm | Comment

Jeremy is a pretty smart guy. I wouldn’t knock him.

I am away the entire week. Maybe when I get back I’ll address the comments from Mr Low, which I find incredibly irritating.

May 2, 2012 @ 12:24 am | Comment

“When asked for his take, Mr Goldkorn said that something ‘big, bad and ugly’ took place in Chongqing, and then went on to point out that western commentators were unlikely to asertain the real facts simply because they were unable to penetrate Chcina’s opaque political culture. (China was sort of an enigma wrapped in a paradox and then surrounded by a few onion skins.)”

If this is what Jeremy Goldkorn actually said, he gets a few points for saying that, yes, we cannot be sure if what we have heard so far contains anything of the truth of what happened in the Bo Xilai affair. He also gets massive negative points for saying something that is irrelevant. As far as I am aware, no ‘western’ commentator has claimed to know absolutely what happened.

May 2, 2012 @ 3:53 am | Comment

http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99/ID/707308/US-embassy-in-a-quandary-over-Chen.aspx

Looks like GT has weighed in.

“The West has brought this idea to China, which is not against human rights.”
—no, not at all….when it suits them.

“The sustaining support of human rights can only come from within China.”
—and you can count on hell freezing over before that “sustaining support” materializes, under the CCP at least.

“The West has put all the blame on Chinese authorities for the Chen Guangcheng issue.”
—I wonder where else they could’ve put it.

I don’t read GT often, but I gotta say they seem very reliable for delivering a good laugh.

May 2, 2012 @ 3:24 pm | Comment

Well, if you want to acquire a realistic view of the world, you’ll have to read that paper, Cheung:
India is swept up by missile delusion, and Chen’s judgment has been ruined by exaggerated media reports.

If only they had subscribed to the “Global Times”!

May 2, 2012 @ 6:59 pm | Comment

something heartening revealed by Chen Guangcheng’s escape is that the police and security forces are perhaps not all that powerful as they wish people would believe. This happened in East Germany in 1989 too, when the giant Stasi turned out to have been a useless paper tiger in the end.

May 2, 2012 @ 10:47 pm | Comment

Reports now saying that Chen left because his family was threatened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17930131

It remains to be seen whether these “promises” from the Chinese government mean anything.

May 3, 2012 @ 12:22 am | Comment

China wants the US to apologize? LOL. These guys really are a bottomless pit when it comes to saying hilarious stuff.

I can’t begin to imagine all the factors Chen had to weigh prior to making his decision to “choose” to leave the US embassy. But his apparent belief that he will now be protected by Chinese law is, at the very best, deeply misguided. For starters, no one in China is protected by “Chinese law”.

May 3, 2012 @ 1:23 am | Comment

The Chen Guangcheng case, which the Americans have diplomatically refused to mention anything about, despite the fact a blind man held hostage by his own government up in Shandong somehow managed to find his way to its embassy, leads me to believe that the US of this generation would have sold out Anne Frank were it in its short-term economic interest to do so.

May 3, 2012 @ 1:59 am | Comment

“China wants the US to apologize? LOL. These guys really are a bottomless pit when it comes to saying hilarious stuff.”

We are sorry for taking the PRC Constitution far more seriously than you do.

May 3, 2012 @ 2:00 am | Comment

slim, nice one!

May 3, 2012 @ 5:33 am | Comment

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/02/chen-guangcheng-us-brokered-deal

Looks like Chen is having second thoughts. Don’t blame him.

It seems as though all 3 parties are playing chicken. Chen is counting on the added scrutiny and public statements from the Chinese government to give him some protective cover. Hope he’s right. Problem is that his story will fade into the background, especially if authorities seem to be honouring their word and leave him alone. Then, maybe months, maybe years down the road, there might be a knock in the middle of the night…and he and his family might suddenly “disappear”. I dunno, but counting on the good graces of the CCP doesn’t seem like a fail-safe plan to me.

The US is also counting on the international spotlight and CCP guarantees to hold up. It would not look good on them if they sent a lamb back out for slaughter.

As for the CCP, well, getting Chen to publicly leave the US embassy “of his own volition” is a PR victory for now. But if some harm comes to CGC despite CCP assurances that none would be forthcoming, it screws that reputation forever (well, whatever reputation they have, anyhow). And if something like this happens again, it’ll be easier to grant asylum by saying “look what happened last time when we let CGC go back to you”.

May 3, 2012 @ 6:52 am | Comment

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/01/world/asia/china-chen-bo-grant/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

“Together their stories encapsulate what critics see as the worst of China, a country where the poor have no protection from the law, where persecution is common, censorship and corruption rampant, and where power and wealth is too often inherited, not earned.”

—that sounds about right to me.

May 3, 2012 @ 7:08 am | Comment

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/01/world/asia/china-chen-hometown/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

The only thing surprising here is that the thugs aren’t driving nicer cars. With the money they’ve siphoned off from being on the CGC “security detail” for the last 19 months, you’d think they’d have bling-ier products from VW Group.

May 3, 2012 @ 7:21 am | Comment

I came across this on the HH website. Has anyone thought about writing something for the 2012 Hidden Harmonies Essay Contest?

Topic:

Every society has a set of values around which it builds its culture. The West likes to think its most important value is freedom. What do think are the most important Chinese values, and how do you think they might be better than those in the West?

May 3, 2012 @ 7:30 am | Comment

HH is a repository of delusion and disinformation. Wrong and wrong-headed on every issue they touch. An embarrassment to thoughtful Chinese everywhere. Save your time for Words with Friends or Sudoku.

May 3, 2012 @ 11:53 am | Comment

and how do you think they might be better than those in the West?

Oh, a guided essay!

May 3, 2012 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

An update on the CGC saga–he says the embassy forced him out; embassy says he left of his own free will.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17935761

May 3, 2012 @ 4:36 pm | Comment

Michelle Liu (LA Times) reports that she has talked to Chen and he says he was pressured to leave by US State officials as he was a burden to them. Chen said he was promised that if he went to the hospital to receive treatment for a broken foot, US personnel would stay with him. He told Ms Liu no one was with him and that he felt the US had abandoned him.

Meanwhile, Chinese officials are demanding apologies from US. They’ll probably have to wait til Obama gets back to get a full apology with accompanying servile bow.

May 3, 2012 @ 7:32 pm | Comment

Ms Liu is Beijing bureau chief for Newsweek, and her article is posted at Daily Beast.com – not LA times.

May 3, 2012 @ 7:39 pm | Comment

To Goju,
interesting update. Right now it’s a lot of hearsay. No one really knows precisely why Chen chose to leave the embassy, or what he was told while in the embassy, or what exactly is happening with his family, or what assurances the CCP have or haven’t given.

Where the rubber meets the road will be when he is released from hospital.

On a separate note, that Charles Liu guy sure gets around. (he pops up in the comments section). But he still has wet dreams about Bradley Manning and the NED. The more things change, the more they stay the same…

May 4, 2012 @ 1:54 am | Comment

SKC, Chen was on conference call to special hearing in Congress. He said he was promised protection by US officials. The story unfolding is that Embassy people wanted to grant him and his family asylum, but were overriden by State Dept offocials doing advance work for Clinton’s upcoming visit. HE

May 4, 2012 @ 6:57 am | Comment

Chen has publicly requested asylum for himself and his family. He said he was threatened by Chinese officials and had otyher threats against his family relayed through State Dept. officials. Chen said several times he wants to fly to US on SoS Clinton’s plane with his family

This is not looking good for this administration. There was mention of looking into the handling of the incident with Wang Lijuan. There is a claim that Wang was denied asylum and forced to leave US Embassy at the direction of VP Biden’s office making any trouble for the visit with Obama. No proof of this so far. Wang has not been heard from since

Feb.

May 4, 2012 @ 7:10 am | Comment

Transcript of the conference call and video at newshour.pbs.org

May 4, 2012 @ 7:19 am | Comment

We all need to be more precise with specific terms like “asylum”, which Chen has not yet asked for, according to his main conduit to the outside world, Bob Fu. More likely, some kind of medical release or visa to do legal research will be the pretext used to get him out of China and the the US, where he can then seek asylum if he wants to.

Apparently, “asylum” adds insult to the injury to the feeling of the PRC this incident has caused, while other fudges on his status saves a bit of face. Who knew a thuggish cabal could have such tender feelings?

May 4, 2012 @ 7:50 am | Comment

China’s Gini index just hit 0.55, on par with Brazil, and more unequal than Panama, Nicaraugua, and the Congo.

More tinder for the fire… and so many places where the spark could come from.

I always think that the most dangerous time for China would be when the Spring Festival mass migration happens. Masses of migrant workers and semi-rural dwellers crammed together, artificial scarcity of tickets induced by the government, easily visible official corruption, all it would take is one large riot in a major metropolitan area to set shit completely off.

May 4, 2012 @ 10:29 am | Comment

Good lord, I go away for a couple of days, and the hilarity on this thread hasn’t abated yet :D You guys claim that Hidden Harmonies is a nest of hardcore Commie sympathizers, yet, some of the folks here (no need to point out names, it is blatantly obvious to a high school educated teen who you guys are) are smack entrenched right in the other extreme of the spectrum, LOL! The silliness of you folks inspire me to modify the great Deng Xiaoping saying: It doesn’t matter whether a clown makes people laugh the black way or white way…. he still makes people laugh and is still a clown :D

Oh, and I am sure since you brilliant bunch of chaps constantly keep up with all the news relating to the CGC drama, then you guys are most definitely aware of this piece of news :P

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57427597/how-u.s-diplomats-rescued-chinese-dissident/

Oh….. so THAT’S how it was done, LOL! No wonder Gary Locke and Hillary Clinton aren’t going around strutting about a human rights victory engineered by the great America on the home ground of their greatest rival and the one country they would love to see regime change happening :P I think they got their wrists slapped VERY TIGHTLY by the Commie Scum leadership for daring to treat Beijing like a city in America :P But well, nice play there Americans :) We all know you guys can be counted on to pull all sorts of Mission Impossible 3 stuff when it is needed… all the practice squirreling innocent Muslims away to Guantanamo or some black jail in Eastern Europe or the Middle East sure is coming in handy now :D Bush and Cheney must be lauded for their far-thinking policies :)

And BTW, I was actually wondering whether in reality, certain elements of the Commie Scum leadership aren’t rubbing their hands in glee at the happening of this American plan, LOL! I mean, if I was a Commie Scum hardliner, I would be amazed at the sheer STUPIDITY of Gary Locke and the American Embassy to invite… nay, bring aboard, a diplomatic and political time-bomb, into the American Embassy just before the talks with China… Now, from the looks of things, the plan is: (i) misfiring mightily with CGC’s constant changes of mind, (ii) embarrassing the American Embassy, the American State Department, and the American President and opening them to attacks from their political opponents; and (iii) gives China / certain Commie Scum the opportunity to give Hillary Clinton and America a tongue-bashing (with words of course, not literally :P ) that they (the Americans) cannot defend against, LOL!

Epic :)

For lack of thought, and the inability to foresee the consequences, this plan gets an A+ and two thumbs up :) Which is typical of many major American plans (examples including the way Americans invaded Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and armed the Muhjahedeen) :P And for delivering world class entertainment and drama, America has no competition…. *chuckle*

….. except maybe from some folks on this blog site :P But yes, go ahead and think I am an imbecile (or worse, as slim kindly points out above) ^_^

May 4, 2012 @ 10:46 am | Comment

btw, nice to see The American Interest also picking up on how Chen’s escape is good for the Chinese statists and bad for the classical liberals–

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/05/03/china-syndrome/

The hardliners took some heavy blows after Wang Lijun entered the American consulate in Chengdu. They are out for revenge now after Chen’s arrival in our embassy in Beijing. The next few days will tell us whether they will succeed.

May 4, 2012 @ 10:47 am | Comment

They are naturally out for revenge, no matter if they perceive these events as an opportunity or as a crisis, t_co. Looks like a good-cop, bad-cop game to me (the liberal do-gooding Foreign Ministry types here in Beijing saying: “Look what you / Chen have / has done to our good cause”).

As for the chronology, including the deal made under participation of Jerome Cohen, I guess we still have t to find out a lot of things about the past two weeks or so.

But yes, it seems that there has been a change of heart by Chen Guangcheng.

May 4, 2012 @ 12:38 pm | Comment

TE Low, I don’t think you are an imbecile at all. I think you are intelligent, cunning and slick. I also think you are a classic troll. I thought that back in an earlier thread, but wanted to give you a fair chance. That’s not just based on your snide, nasty, mocking, supercilious comments, or on the fact that you disagree with me; I invite disagreement. No, it’s just that you’re a true BSer, and you enjoy derailing the conversation. For proof of your BSing, let’s look at your earlier comment that you sympathized with Chen until he turned to the US for help, and then suddenly you turned against him because the US is such an awful human rights abuser. Whether the US is or isn’t a human rights abuser is irrelevant. It’s that BS about how you were for Chen, but then, in an instant, just because he turned to the US, you completely changed your conviction and turned against him. That’s nonsense. It’s preposterous. Many people overseas who are the victims of human rights abuse turn to the US for help/asylum. Are they all snakes, do they all deserve your contempt, simply because they asked the US for help? You were never on Chen’s side, and anyone reading your last comment knows it. I could go on and further dissect your earlier comments, in this thread and elsewhere, but it isn’t worth it. At this point, after blogging for ten years, I know a troll from a mile away. I don’t believe a single word you say. Not a single word.

May 4, 2012 @ 12:58 pm | Comment

To T-co,
nice link. Of course, it’s a real credit to the CCP system that the “reformers” and the “statists” can engage in their wonderful rendition of wringing-of-the-hands while the people the CCP lords over can barely discuss these issues amongst themselves on the internet.

Once CGC leaves hospital, then we’ll see what’s what.

May 4, 2012 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

You all need to read this excellent article in the Economist. One of the smartest commentaries on Chen, and the implications of his plight for US-China relations, that I’ve seen yet.

May 4, 2012 @ 1:04 pm | Comment

To Richard,
I disagree. I think TE Low is a complete imbecile, and based on his last comment, a rather juvenile one. Never have I seen someone of any redeeming intelligence whatsoever resort to that many emoticons in one comment. He’s even on a lower level than the Merp’s and Red Stars of the world. They at least manage to say something, however misguided and delusional they might be. This dude manages to generate a lengthy post that says nothing. If brevity is a sign of intelligence, he would possess the opposite thereof.

May 4, 2012 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

http://tealeafnation.com/2012/05/chinese-netizens-to-united-states-no-need-to-apologize-for-chen-guangcheng/

Particularly enjoyed these netizen comments:

““This is how America should respond: China, please careful consider your own policy and behavior, protect your own citizens, ensure they truly enjoy the lawful rights of a citizen. Don’t force them to run to other countries for protection.”

Or perhaps the US should apologize…

““American must apologize; there are so many suffering injustice, why don’t they save more?””

May 4, 2012 @ 1:20 pm | Comment

SKC, I don’t think he’s an imbecile, because he came onto this blog sounding serious and not unintelligent. Then, slowly but surely, he showed his true colors, exactly the way Wayne did, at first sounding logical and well informed and suddenly turning hostile and mocking. Sort of like a Trojan horse. That’s not stupid, it’s just sleazy.

Good Netizen comments, btw. This is quickly emerging as the story of the year.

May 4, 2012 @ 1:35 pm | Comment

I had TE Low pegged as a Hidden Harmonizer from the get go. When one is in thrall to irredeemably bad ideas, no amount of intelligence will overcome that.

May 4, 2012 @ 8:12 pm | Comment

The really offensive thing about TE Low is his use of emoticons. #103 is just obscene.

May 5, 2012 @ 3:14 am | Comment

The really offensive thing about TE Low – in my view – is that he gets so much attention.

May 5, 2012 @ 5:46 am | Comment

Slim is correct; neiher Chen nor anyone directly involved in this used the word asylum. It was used by reporters and/or commentators. Slim also pegged it as the latest news is that it now looks like Chen and his family will leave China so he can study abroad.

I would be very wary if I were in China and had been identified as a supporter of Chen’s. Or if the Government viewed me as being connected to any dissident. I would guess they may be getting a little fed up with the media attention being focused on their human rights actions.

May 5, 2012 @ 6:18 am | Comment

I have a psychotic loathing for any commenter who goes into smiley overdrive. Even one of those offensive symbols places one beyond the pale.

May 5, 2012 @ 8:46 am | Comment

Doesn’t it? :)

May 6, 2012 @ 3:06 am | Comment

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