Hacked By AdGhosT & Tayeb TN & bo hmid

 

 

 

 

 

close your eyes and listen Elfen Lied <3

Greets~:AdGhosT-- adel pro tn- Anonback Tnx - A_Ghacker - xvirus -Malousi Foryn - MaxKiller - Nexamos

Hacked By AdGhosT

Hacked By AdGhosT & Tayeb TN & bo hmid

 

 

 

 

 

close your eyes and listen Elfen Lied <3

Greets~:AdGhosT-- adel pro tn- Anonback Tnx - A_Ghacker - xvirus -Malousi Foryn - MaxKiller - Nexamos


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Comments on: Philip Pan’s Out of Mao’s Shadow: The Struggle for the Soul of a New China http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/ A peculiar hybrid of personal journal, dilettantish punditry, pseudo-philosophy and much more, from an Accidental Expat who has made his way from Hong Kong to Beijing to Taipei and finally back to Beijing for reasons that are still not entirely clear to him... Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:34:31 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.7.2 By: Why criticize the CCP? » The Peking Duck http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71742 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:41:58 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71742 […] he mentions paid mightily for it, and no matter what he says, I can’t imagine anyone reading Out of Mao’s Shadow without feeling chronic depression throughout, with a few moments of optimism. (In the interview, […]

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By: Richard http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71680 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 13:40:05 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71680 Robert, agreed. I wish there was more community outrage, but that will take time as people realize the disparities and the injustices and how they themselves are vulnerable to what they see happening to strangers in far-off parts of the country.

Appreciate all the comments to this thread and apologize that it kind of went off-track from its subject. I also apologize for letting some of the comments get to me – I get frustrated when people don’t realize I am nearly always right. Read the book. Thread closed.

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By: Robert Herman Jr. http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71679 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 13:30:13 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71679 Wow! Some of you guys really seem to be lacking greatly in tolerance for those who have alternative viewpoints to your own.

I certainly have no doubt that a sizable majority of Chinese – both rural and urban – broadly support the central government, even though a minority of individuals (though this minority may be large in actual numbers) are unhappy with the quality of political leadership provided by their local representatives – be they popularly elected or not. Most villages function quite well though, despite what some people like to think.

Keep in mind guys, that there are over one million villages throughout China, and around 900 million people live either in or around them. The 80,000 or so disturbances that occur each year isn’t as significant as what many people want to believe, as Richard says. Even if all of these disturbances were to have occurred in separate townships and villages (which is NOT the case) that would only amount to a very small percentage of villages that ever experience this kind of social stress. Many of these disturbances occur in towns, but let us, just for argument’s sake, imagine that they all occurred in separate villages: that would mean that only about 8 percent or less of villages ever experience such disturbances in a given year. Many of these distubances don’t occur in villages, but in towns. Combine the total number of towns and villages in China, and then assume that all 80,000 or so disturbances a year occur in separate towns and villages, and the percentage of human settlements in China that experiences any social unrest in a given year falls to less than 4 percent.

Some of these disturbances involve large numbers (10,000 people, and sometimes even more) but the vast majority involve only small handfuls of people.

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By: Raj http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71675 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:18:36 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71675 In China? Again, just askin’. Because to me it’s beyond comprehension/belief that you could talk to a broad spectrum of Chinese people here and conclude that they aren’t mainly loyal to and even grateful to the Party

Yes, in China – or they’re PRC citizens abroad for whatever reason on a temporary basis. But you miss the point. I never said that my views were based on what they said. And I never said that they aren’t “mainly loyal/grateful”. I said that those who are mostly likely to be open with their views are those that are pro-government because they have so much less to be worried about. Whereas others will be more guarded with their views – why do you think it is that foreign reporters in China so often say they had difficulty in talking to people about certain issues?

But the main thing is that as I know the people I interact with are not drawn from the entire cross-section of Chinese society I would not hold their views out to be “representative” anyway, nor can one person ever interview the reasonable minimum for polling which is several hundred people (with a population like China’s probably much higher). Now, richard, do you want to assert that you’ve talked to that many people from one end of the country to the other, farmers and the unemployed to rich urbanites and they’ve all given you responses without any hesitation?

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By: Richard http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71673 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 09:51:52 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71673 Thanks Jeremiah; I did try to give Ferin a fair chance but he was a repeat offender. It was precisely his remarks about mor’s wife that made his presence here untenable.

I think people get very emotional when they hear exactly what they don’t want to hear. I know I sometimes do. I know many of us want to believe there is massive unrest in China that threatens the government’s stability right now. I would love to believe that because it would be a real catalyst for change. It makes us feel good to think that this may be so, but my objective side tells me it isn’t, and when I say so it can infuriate.

Mor, I do hope you’ll reconsider. You’re always welcome.

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By: Jeremiah http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71670 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 08:46:17 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71670 Mor,

For what it’s worth, both my wife and I speak Chinese and I would also argue that, especially in urban areas, popular support for the CCP is high and I would agree with the basic substance of Richard’s analysis. I might qualify certain points, but it would be quibbling.

Also, for the record, I was one of the administrators so appalled at Ferin’s comments about your family that I asked Richard to ban Ferin.

I’d rather not see the dialogue here descend down that road, so let’s all chill a bit.

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By: Richard http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71638 Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:31:52 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71638 About Hu Jia’s mother not dropping out of the party – it may not be fun, but it is not that difficult and it certainly is not unprecedented. Many have dropped out without consequence.

It is a process called reregistration. A number of party officials interviewed said many of the 48 million Chinese Communists would have to submit self-evaluations, self-criticism and programs for self-improvement, and take part in group discussions to better understand their party role. Through that process, the Communist leaders hope to teach their members the ”party style” and the ”party concept,” and more importantly to ferret out the ”hostile elements” who presumably were behind the pro-democracy movement last spring.

”It’s not going to be any problem at all to reregister,” said a party member who marched in the protests. ”They will have more problems if they start kicking too many people out.”

At one university where the reregistration was conducted as part of an early-stage trial run, six members who marched in the demonstrations were told they would probably not be signed up as members again. They were given the choice of accepting their verdict and dropping out of the process immediately, or enduring the long, arduous process of self-criticism and group discussion and awaiting a verdict that might not be positive. Three decided to hang on, but in the end they were kicked out, a teacher who knew one of the members said….

There are signs that the Communist Party itself is concerned that people might want to drop out or resign. To ward off any embarrassments, the party decided that during the reregistration process, members would not be allowed to resign, because they would be expelled first, several members said. But one official said that in some units people were allowed to resign.

People want to drop out, and they try to resign, are then expelled, and their lives go on. Of course, the CCP could make Hu Jia’s mother’s life hell – god knows they’ve done that to others. The fact that people like her remain is another of those conundrums that you start to understand the more you read books by the like of Pan and, even more so (in this case), Pomfret’s Chinese Lessons.

Update: mor, that last comment of yours was really rude and inappropriate. I’m not sure where the sudden hostility comes from, but I respectfully ask you to please keep it to yourself. When you pointed out Ferin’s hostile comments when I was too busy to even read everything on this site I immediately deleted them and ultimately banned him permanently. Remember? I expect you to follow the same rules. I’ve always respected you and have never been rude to you, so I am really surprised. If you have an issue you want to talk about please let me know by email. I’ll try to forget that last comment and let it go. Thanks a lot for your understanding.

I want to stress again that Pan makes it clear that many people in China feel there is no hope for the party, no cause for any optimism,and the only solution is the end of the current system. (This is the conclusion of the Southern Metropolis Daily editor, in one of the most poignant moments in the book.) I believe, based on the studies I’ve seen and the people I’ve met, that still the government commands an incredible level of trust despite its sins. Just like several other powerful dictatorships have. The dissenters are there – that’s what this magnificent book is all about. But to call them a small minority is an overstatement – they are a very small minority. At least for now. You can point to the many thousands of protests that flare up each year, like this week’s in Hunan province, but these still involve a slender sliver of the population. Most people in China just don’t care about them, partly because they don’t know the extent of the horrors, and partly because they are too busy struggling to improve their lives to be bothered. Most of them believe their government is on the right course (as did most Germans from 1933 to 1941).

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By: Richard http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71637 Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:16:57 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71637 I know, I know, trust me.

As you know, I am very, very, very hard on the CCP. I understand it pretty well and know how it has succeeded. I may “admire” it the way Ash “admires” alien: Really bad, but oh, so effective. Like the Republican propaganda machine, another bad entity I “admire.” Its effectiveness cannot be disputed, similar to the effectiveness of the CCP. Hope you read about the surveys I mentioned. Fascinating and disheartening and depressing, but it’s reality.

Take it easy.

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By: mor http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71633 Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:43:54 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71633 “But hell, I even heard Hu Jia’s mother is still in the Party despite what they did to her son”

Has anybody ever told you what it means to LEAVE the CCP? Has the thought ever crossed your mind that Hu Jia’s mother is still in the party, because leaving or even criticizing the CCP would most likely only make things worse for her, her son and the rest of the family? And what would that have to do with holding the party in “high esteem”?

And since you’ve played the “I’ve spent more time in China and know more Chinese people than you”-card with Raj, I want to ask you one more question:

When you talked to those literally hundreds of people, which language did you use? Is your Chinese good enough to talk politics? Or did you conduct the interviews in English? Or maybe there was a translator?

And once more, what makes you think that people who usually are rather careful about telling others – even their neighbors or relatives – what they really think about the government – will tell you, an expat American they don’t know that well (since I assume not all of those hundreds of people are close friends of yours)?

Last not least, to avoid any misunderstandings, I do agree that “the CCP enjoys a high degree of popularity overall in the country”. But I have a problem with statements like “I think every reader here knows that the majority of the people of China hold their government in high esteem.” We do not know that. Well, maybe you do, I certainly don’t. And the CCP doesn’t know either. Maybe they should read your blog.

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By: FOARP http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/08/philip-pans-out-of-maos-shadow-the-struggle-for-the-soul-of-a-new-china/comment-page-2/#comment-71613 Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:32:04 +0000 http://www.pekingduck.org/?p=4887#comment-71613 @Richard – From a historical view point it is not surprising but very human. Witness the majority of Germans who saw nothing wrong with the Nazis until the Russian army was knocking on their door, or the French who saw nothing wrong with Petain – until 1944 that is. Up until the present day the majority of Russians are positive about Stalin – and always have been. In Taiwan most people have at least on or two thing nice to say about Chiang Kai-Shek.

Now, imagine if Governor Palin had been unveiled to the public at the most recent people’s congress – what would you know about her? Certainly you wouldn’t know anything about the various scandals back in Alaska (or Hainan, or whatever) – and scandals there would be, but you would hear her speech (although this would be without any reference to opposition – there would be no opposition) and you would hear the praising pundits on TV. This is all you would know about any member of government, other than internet rumours, and even then, those would have a degree of ‘steerage’ – see the ‘Jiang Ze Min/Song Zu Ying’ rumour that came out around the time of Hu Jintao taking power.

The basic note is “they are us” and “they belong to us”, and there is nothing to counter-act this – from day one in the lives of the majority of PRC citizens.

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