I really don’t get it. The flag of mainland China has never flown over Taiwanese soil. Yet if you search for Taiwan on Google Maps, you’ll see they refer to “Taiwan, a Province of China.” How can they matter-of-factly call it “a provice” of the PRC? The Taiwanese government is wondering about the same thing.
The Taiwan Solidarity Union (TSU) legislative caucus yesterday called on the public to write to Google to protest its listing of Taiwan as a “province of China” on its Google Maps service.
In addition to sending its own letter of protest to the US search-engine giant, the caucus asked the government to lodge a formal protest and request Google to clearly define Taiwan as “an independent state.”
TSU caucus whip David Huang (黃適卓) said that Google Maps’ definition of Taiwan as part of China was not only far-fetched but also unacceptable to the nation’s people.
“Taiwan is an independent, sovereign state. Taiwan is not part of China,” Huang said.
“Taiwan has never been ruled by China, nor has the Chinese government deployed any government functionaries or armed forces here,” he said…
By listing Taiwan as a province of China, Google Maps is clearly succumbing to pressure from China to distort the international community’s perception of the cross-strait situation, Huang said.
“It seriously sabotages the nation’s sovereignty. The people of Taiwan should not allow China to spread such misleading information to the international community,” Huang said.
I have to agree with them on this one. It’s not only blatantly false, it’s irresponsible and highly misleading. (And no, I’m not saying Taiwan is – or isn’t – independent of China. But it is certainly not a province, like Henan or Fujian.)
Update: I like this take on the story:
No doubt good sense will prevail, with Google siding firmly with Beijing and threatening to invade Taiwan if it attempts to declare itself a sovereign state while taking the intermediate measure of downgrading all existing satellite images of the island to “developing world lo-res” – a fate reserved for only the mostly lowly of nations/provinces
1
By sun bin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province
technically, there is a Taiwan Province under Republic of China. but that does not include Taipei or Kaohsiung.
“Since 1998, the provincial administration has been greatly streamlined, leaving counties and provincial cities the primary divisions in Taiwan Province”
October 4, 2005 @ 10:35 pm | Comment
2
By Abe
Maybe calling it a commonwealth will satisfy everybody….Just like Puerto Rico.
China can live without Taiwan, but increasing Taiwan cannot live without China…
October 5, 2005 @ 12:02 am | Comment
3
By richard
A lot of places can’t live without China. A lot of places can’t live without the US. Does that make them US provinces?
October 5, 2005 @ 12:20 am | Comment
4
By richard
Sun Bin, is Taiwan Province a province of the PRC?
October 5, 2005 @ 12:22 am | Comment
5
By xing
Richard,
Taiwan is not a province of the PRC, at least not for now. But it is not a country either. There are only a few countries in the whole world that recognizes Taiwan as a country. So it is not entirely wrong for Google to refer Taiwan as a province of the PRC. Don’t you agree?
October 5, 2005 @ 12:56 am | Comment
6
By sun bin
richard,
depends on which side of the story you are hearing.
from taiwan’s side officially, it is a province of “Republic of China”.
so…..
October 5, 2005 @ 1:01 am | Comment
7
By richard
I totally disagree. What you said was a classic non sequitor. Read your words carefully, and use some critical thinking:
There are only a few countries in the whole world that recognizes Taiwan as a country. So it is not entirely wrong for Google to refer Taiwan as a province of the PRC.
Now, explain your thought process, your logic. Thanks.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:02 am | Comment
8
By Fishling
Even if taiwan is not part of PRC, taiwanese are still Chinese. Hear about what my Yan Xue Tong leading expect on international relationship in CHina, who is also in charge of the international relationship research institute of Tsing hua say:
Tai wan is not part of China? We can move forty million people from the west of China to tai wan and see if it is part of China
October 5, 2005 @ 1:03 am | Comment
9
By sun bin
note in my first comment, i was careful not say PRC. :), i said ROC and used ROC’s definition of province.
i know these things get controversial, and i was only commenting on the technicality, in repsonse to your post.
you can argue that ROC today does not want to be use the abbrv. but you cannot say there is no such province.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:05 am | Comment
10
By richard
But Sun Bin, when you refer to “China” in the 21st century, there is no doubt you mean the PRC. The Google site is not at all abiguous: It conveys in no uncertain terms that Taiwan is a province of the PRC.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:06 am | Comment
11
By Fishling
I remember a professor who is in charge of Tsinghua international relationship research institute, once said:
Taiwan is not part of China? We shall move forty million people from the west of China to Taiwan and see if it belongs to china or not!
October 5, 2005 @ 1:07 am | Comment
12
By Fishling
oh damn it, posted twice
October 5, 2005 @ 1:10 am | Comment
13
By sun bin
1. your alleging taiwan is “certainly not a province” is technically incorrect.
that is what i wanted to point out
2. i am not entering into the debate of whether taiwan should be independent or not. it is complicated enough even for the 23M people living there.
for in 21st century, i think there are still significant number of people ON TAIWAN ISLAND that may not agree with your saying China=PRC.
it is controversial, but it is not “NO DOUBT”.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:16 am | Comment
14
By Martyn
The situation if Taiwan is a mixture of two things. Firstly, a Chinese civil war where obviously the losing side fled to the island. There, they continued the ROC there.
Secondly, with the advent of democracy in Taiwan this last decade, all Taiwanese now have a voice, not just the KMT govt that ruled with an iron fist and spoke on behalf of the population for 50 years.
Therefore, despite 50 years of being told that they are Chinese, an increasing number of people feel that they are Taiwanese and want nothing to do with China.
However, China says otherwise and threatens war if the new Taiwan changes it’s antiquitated and irrelevant constitution.
However, despite Chinese threats, “Taiwaneseness” is growing. As Annette Lu says: “We are Chinese but not China” so anybody arguing whether the population of Taiwan is Chinese or not is simply blowing hot air.
It’s not for me to say whether Taiwan should or should be part of the PRC…this is up to the Taiwanese people themselves.
However, I’ve lived there and most people DON’T wish to part of China in any way, shape or form.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:19 am | Comment
15
By richard
Google just replied:
October 5, 2005 @ 1:19 am | Comment
16
By Fishling
I am waiting for a day when something goes wrong with ccp, then Tai wan war can be a nice direction for the public’s attention to shift to.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:24 am | Comment
17
By richard
Here seems to be the issue. For the ROC, “Taiwan Province” is simply a reference to a large section of Taiwan. It’s like New York County within New York State. It’s a part of the state of NY, but it certainly doesn’t follow that the state of NY is thus a county. There may be a NY County within NY State, but to refer unequivocally to NY as a “county” is utterly misleading.
Second aspect: According to the PRC, Taiwan is indeed one of its “23 provinces.” The Google description definitely lends credence to the latter assertion. And it should be deleted. Debbie Frost is handling this very poorly. (See my comment above.)
October 5, 2005 @ 1:24 am | Comment
18
By Martyn
It matters not what bloody Google says or doesn’t say on Google Maps. Life will still go on as normal in gloriously free Taiwan as it always has done.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:27 am | Comment
19
By sun bin
martyn,
do you mean “PRC” in your statement below
“However, I’ve lived there and most people DON’T wish to part of PRC in any way, shape or form. ”
the problem is how many Taiwan people equate “PRC” to “China”. i think this is mainly the dividing line between pan-blue and pan-green? and also I think richard’s equating these 2 terms, has room for discussion.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:29 am | Comment
20
By xing
Maityn,
====================================
It’s not for me to say whether Taiwan should or should be part of the PRC…this is up to the Taiwanese people themselves.
====================================
Yes, you are right, this is up to the people in Taiwan; but the billion people on the mainland also want to decide the status of Taiwan, so…
October 5, 2005 @ 1:31 am | Comment
21
By sun bin
“It matters not what bloody Google says or doesn’t say on Google Maps. ”
i agree with this fully.
google is just a profit seeking company, trying to tip the line of ambiguity. there are many other companies who chose to take sides. they were not bothered because they are smaller.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:33 am | Comment
22
By richard
Well, luckily it’s not their choice. Those billion people would also like to wipe Japan off the face of the earth. You can’t always get what you want. Especially if you don’t deserve it.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:33 am | Comment
23
By xing
Richard,
I think the reply from Google is right: it follows international convention. Remember, your own country, USA, have always (in the last 30 years) said that Taiwan is part of China (of course, it didn’t say which China; but we all know which China it is, as you rightly pointed out).
October 5, 2005 @ 1:34 am | Comment
24
By richard
I’ve been here only a few weeks, but from all I can tell, the people here have a great deal of contempt for the PRC and the CCP. Green and blue alike seem to harbor serious reservations, and I have not met a single one who says he or she favors reunification. (On the other side, neither have I met anyone, aside from waiguoren, who say they favor independence; most want the status quo to continue.)
October 5, 2005 @ 1:36 am | Comment
25
By richard
Word games. The UN’s reference to Taiwan Province is a direct reference to its being a province of the ROC. Google is leaving a very distint impression that it’s a province of the PRC.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:39 am | Comment
26
By sun bin
“wipe japan off?”
1 billion= more than 70% of 1.3bn?
even if you are right, what does this have to do with google map?
ok, i am quitting the discussion here. good bye
October 5, 2005 @ 1:40 am | Comment
27
By richard
Sun Bing, I was making the simple point that just because 1 billion people want something doesn’t mean it is right or inevitable.
October 5, 2005 @ 1:42 am | Comment
28
By Martyn
Sun-bin, point taken.
Xing
The argument you use (i.e. that the Mainland should be part of any referedum or at least that Mainlanders have their feelings taken into consideration) is a standard Chinese argument.
However, like many things, this thinking is unique to China. For example, Scotland has been united with England since 1715. However, Scotland can legally choose independence AT ANY TIME from England by a majority vote in any referendum called by Scots…and there have been many. These referendums include ONLY 5 million SCOTS and DO NOT INCLUDE the 50 million English.
October 5, 2005 @ 2:02 am | Comment
29
By David
I think you’re wrong there – the UN no longer recognises the ROC. Taiwan Province is a direct reference to it being a province of the PRC.
October 5, 2005 @ 2:42 am | Comment
30
By richard
David, this is the quote from Wikpedia, that I linked to in the comment you’re referring to:
That’s what I based my comment on. If they are wrong, my apologies.
October 5, 2005 @ 2:51 am | Comment
31
By chester
Are we going to produce “Free Taiwan” bumper stickers and sell concert tickets after it is finally a part of PRC?
October 5, 2005 @ 3:09 am | Comment
32
By David
I see what you mean – but that statement just says that the bits of China under the control of the ROC are ‘Taiwan, Province of China’. The China they are talking about is the PRC (because that’s the only China they recognise). It’s not saying anything about how the ROC defines Taiwan.
In particular, the ROC considers the outlying islands of Taiwan (e.g. Jinmen) as part of Fujian province (and as has been mentioned Taipei/Kaohsiong cities are not part of Taiwan province) – but the UN doesn’t care about this. The UNs definition of Taiwan province is the Chinese representatives definition (i.e. the PRCs definition)
Ugh. Does that make sense?
October 5, 2005 @ 3:11 am | Comment
33
By David
Probably not. Taiwan hasn’t got anyone cute & cuddly like the Dalai Lama, so why would anyone buy a bumper sticker?
October 5, 2005 @ 3:14 am | Comment
34
By richard
Yes David, it does. It seems like a very gooey, messy topic, and the Wikpedia post makes it clear that the phrase “Taiwan, a province of China” can mean all sorts of things to different people. In any case, the way it stands on Google Maps right now is unacceptable, and for Google PR hack Drebbie Frost to say they are following international norms is a crock; using their own search engine, Google can easily see that the ones claiming Taiwan is a province of the China (the PRC) are uninterested parties, like People’s Daily, China Daily and PRC government sites.
October 5, 2005 @ 3:17 am | Comment
35
By richard
Are we going to produce “Free Taiwan” bumper stickers and sell concert tickets after it is finally a part of PRC?
Depends. If the Taiwanese agree to reunification and the CCP agrees to cede power to the Taiwanese governing body, it might work out just great for everybody. However, if they are “reunited” by force a la Tibet, then bumper stickers would be in order. Ironically, they’d probably be mass-produced by some factory in Guangzhou.
October 5, 2005 @ 3:21 am | Comment
36
By richard
Taiwan hasn’t got anyone cute & cuddly like the Dalai Lama
You forgot about Li Ao.
October 5, 2005 @ 3:22 am | Comment
37
By David
Li Ao? Heh. I don’t think someone who has advocated the unconditional surrender of Taiwan to the PRC can really be considered a poster-child for Taiwan independence!
October 5, 2005 @ 4:42 am | Comment
38
By Budding Sinologist
That is kind of true, depending on how you mean that . The Shanghai Communique (1972), which this set the policy for this issue states
Acknowledging that both sides say something isn’t the same thing as believing it yourself or agreeing with it. This was obviously written with intentional ambiguity, so it wouldn’t be fair to comment that we know which China was meant. The ROC never claimed to be part of that China, so that isn’t accurate.
October 5, 2005 @ 6:13 am | Comment
39
By richard
Sinologist, that is a great point, but I’m afraid it demands nuanced thinking that die-hard one-China supporters won’t want to deal with.
October 5, 2005 @ 7:38 am | Comment
40
By David
It is an interesting point isn’t it? The Shanghai Communique is clearly no longer valid because one side *doesn’t* ‘maintain that there is but one China and Taiwan is a part of China’ (at least until 2008). So where does that leave the USA?
October 5, 2005 @ 7:45 am | Comment
41
By Logan
Budding Sinologist has the right angle here. The US explicitly did not agree with that position because it would have been considered an intervention into China’s internal affairs at the time; the language allowed Mao to argue that the US was staying out of the Taiwan issue and leaving it to “all Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait” to resolve. The problem for this formulation now is that the rise of democratic government in Taiwan has created a stronger Taiwanese identity (see: Chen’s 2004 campaign) and undermined both the “all Chinese” and “one China and Taiwan is part of China” parts of the Shanghai Communique. The situation on the ground is changing.
Secondly, the United States made that statement in order to move toward the normalization of relations with China, through a process in 1977 and 1978 that required another communique and almost broke down at the last minute over Taiwan-related issues between Leonard Woodcock and Deng. Therefore, from both the Chinese and American perspectives, this was far from the last word.
October 5, 2005 @ 7:53 am | Comment
42
By ACB
“We rely on international naming conventions”
I’m glad to see that google is using ‘international conventions’ because I can tell you that you have no idea how confusing I found it when I went to Narita last week to get a flight back to Taipei, I looked up and down the departure lists for a whole ten minutes and for the life of me couldn’t find Taiwan Province on the list. You know what, I finally had to ask the attendent and do you know what she said to me, ‘Taiwan province, sorry ma’am, we don’t fly there, but we do fly to Taiwan’, boy was my face red.
October 5, 2005 @ 9:25 am | Comment
43
By ACB
Maybe we should just call it Formosa, like in the good ol’ days.
October 5, 2005 @ 9:26 am | Comment
44
By ACB
On a differnt note, do you remember what happened when the south part of north America wanted to be intependent from the north part of north America? Did Mr Lincon have a referendum? Did he let them do it on the grounds of XYZ?
October 5, 2005 @ 9:28 am | Comment
45
By Those who dare
Fee Fi Fo Fum, Google thumbs its nose at Taiwan.
A recent but apparently short lived spat between the treacherous quislings and Google has ended with a whimper
October 5, 2005 @ 4:59 pm | Comment
46
By bingfeng
Sun Bin, is Taiwan Province a province of the PRC?
Posted by richard at October 5, 2005 12:22 AM
————-
china doesn’t equal to PRC
October 5, 2005 @ 7:29 pm | Comment
47
By bingfeng
face the music
calling taiwan “a part of china” doesn’t change the fact that it doesn’t belong to PRC
and trying to define taiwan not part of “PRC” doesn’t change the fact that taiwan is part of a chinese nation called CHINA
don’t understand why both sides waste so much time for those nonsense
October 5, 2005 @ 7:34 pm | Comment
48
By bingfeng
taiwan was used to be called by the US and other western countries as “the free china”, when did you change it to “the free non-china”?
October 5, 2005 @ 7:36 pm | Comment
49
By richard
taiwan was used to be called by the US and other western countries as “the free china”, when did you change it to “the free non-china”?
I think the change took place when it was accepted that for all intents and purposes the PRC is and will for a long time continue to be “China,” while Taiwan would be a separate entity.
October 5, 2005 @ 7:43 pm | Comment
50
By richard
taiwan is part of a chinese nation called CHINA
If it were so simple, we would never have threads like this one. Some see it very, very differently. As you know.
October 5, 2005 @ 7:45 pm | Comment
51
By ZHJ
Very interesting topic: Chinese visitors vs Western visitors. While the former support the view that Taiwan is part of China (as a province), the latter supports the view it should be independent. Carrying on the discussion is useless. By not supporting the Chinese position(s) on Taiwan, those people who advocate Taiwan Independence have zero, 0.0, credibility for many Chinese people. Too bad this blog is probably blocked in mainland China. I wished it would be accessible, so mainland Chinese can learn what foreigners are thinking about their country. That’s why I do not agree with censoring this site and the attempt by the PRC to protect or shield the Chinese people of this very relevant information.
Many comments made are actually China-bashing. Those commenters try to get away with it by saying, “well, we like the Chinese people”. At the same time they insult them, they make jokes that you know when a mainland Chinese lies is “when his lips move”. Or that their view about their Taiwan province is irrelevant and that they don’t deserve Taiwan. Or falsely claim that the Chinese people would like to wipe Japan “off earth”.
This is my observation and if I am inspired, I may write something about it. Anyways, go to mainland China and say that Taiwan is not a province, but “independent”. You are lucky if you only get scolded.
October 5, 2005 @ 9:24 pm | Comment
52
By richard
ZHJ, who has said Taiwan should be independent? Maybe they should, maybe not. But where did you see this?
When the commenter made the remark about how Chinese people lie when their lips move, I replied that no one here should say that sort of thing. Go look carefully.
This site is not censored in China. Everyone is free to see it.
Just because Chinese people on the mainland may scold someone who says Taiwan is not part of China does not make them right. Many of those same people also believed it was a good idea to destroy Japnese restaurants back in April. That does not mean they are right.
October 5, 2005 @ 9:30 pm | Comment
53
By Patrick
ZHJ,
The topic of Taiwan came up only twice in conversation with local people in my two years on the mainland, and you know what? Both times, I was informed in no less words that they couldn’t care less about whether Taiwan was independent or not, and that the people on the island should figure out their own way. Obviously, two opinions out of 1.3 billion isn’t exactly a lot, but these weren’t radicals or dissidents or ‘splitist forces’: these were just two of your supposedly ‘hyper-nationalist’ average joe students. It just goes to show the danger of lumping such a huge population into some uniform ‘people’ entity that thinks in unison. I didn’t get scolded at all. Instead, I got some actual opinions.
October 5, 2005 @ 9:50 pm | Comment
54
By chester
Richard-
“Depends. If the Taiwanese agree to reunification and the CCP agrees to cede power to the Taiwanese governing body, it might work out just great for everybody.”
THink AGAIN of what you wrote above. It’s an oxymoron! CCP agrees to (who?) to cede power (why would they do that?) And then what happens to the island’s population? C’mon!
October 6, 2005 @ 1:26 am | Comment
55
By richard
Chester, can’t you tell a joke when you see one?
October 6, 2005 @ 1:43 am | Comment
56
By Peter
Unless Google is trying to suck up to people in Zhongnanhai, it would seem perfectly OK to just refer to Taiwan as Taiwan. Do they list Quebec as “Quebec, province of Canada”?
October 6, 2005 @ 3:43 am | Comment
57
By Viviend
I am a Taiwanese American, I believe Taiwan and China reunification is inevitable in the long run, now just hope that it would be unified under a democracy.
October 6, 2005 @ 8:24 am | Comment
58
By chester
hahahaha
October 6, 2005 @ 12:35 pm | Comment
59
By chester
Viviend,
Don’t just hope, you, being a “Taiwanese American.”
October 7, 2005 @ 12:34 am | Comment
60
By Roy
Does nobody want to comment on Google’s action? They have been sucking up to the Chinese authorities for some time now. They have a significant commercial axe to grind.
October 8, 2005 @ 2:23 am | Comment
61
By jesser
im most curious why EVERY chinese person has the exact same opinion on this matter, while taiwanese and the rest of the world are allowed to have more than one opinion. perhaps 50 years of exterminating anyone with a different opinion will do that. remember if you are from mainland china, everything you have ever learned about history has been highly scripted by your government
August 29, 2006 @ 4:26 pm | Comment