CHen is liar, he can not even point out the the list of 1000 spies, saying. these are people who keep eye on FLG for the CHinese government, so they are not the spies as Australian thought.
Chen makes up storries for his own greed. he will not have good end. just look at his broken English!! I wonder after FLG use him up, what other job he can find in Australia. Chinese food delivery man, maybe?

July 11, 2005 @ 4:13 pm | Comment

I like Chen and I think he is telling the truth. I see him as a hero and a very brave man. He never said he knew all the spies by name. But most commenters have said 1,00 spies in Australia is not at all an incredible number. And trust me, he’ll do just fine, writing a book and doing the international lecture tour.

July 11, 2005 @ 4:50 pm | Comment

“China is a country ruled by law and … the so-called issue of ‘political persecution’ does not exist at all”. Yeah right, just like nothing at all happened on 6 June 1989 and that hooha about AIDS in Henan is all a plot by the unfriendly Western media.
What he says can’t be too far from the truth to make the CCP release an apoplectic statement like that. Keep going Chen, maybe you’ll make someone in Zhongnanhai pop a blood vessel.

July 11, 2005 @ 5:50 pm | Comment

It took me about 5 minutes to stop laughing after I read that China is a country ruled by law!!! What a joke!

Try something simple like a car accident, there arent really even any laws in place for how to deal with it!

Not only is China lawless, its also brainless. Nearly every Chinese person I have talked to who is under 25 is so completely brainwashed its unbelievable and very sad. The older generation knows whats going on but is too scared to say anything.

I have no doubt there are over 1000 Chinese spies in Australia. Japan had over 100 spies in the USA at this point in their development too. Whats worrying is the fact they are building up their military something feirce and maybe in 10 years they will be able to beat the USA in a war…

July 11, 2005 @ 6:33 pm | Comment

“he will not have good end. just look at his broken English!!”
that was a low blow. in fact, look at your own broken english! and look at your maturity level. there’s no use even arguing with these people.
i saw this news when i got to work, and was thrilled. i especially loved the quote “political persecution does not exist at all.” my ass it doesn’t! who falls for this BS? (besides some of those who are exposed to it their entire lives).

July 11, 2005 @ 7:11 pm | Comment

and rock on gaz, i second your comments!

July 11, 2005 @ 7:12 pm | Comment

you guys are brainwashed by western propoganda. Have you even lived in China, been to China lately? So Chen named 1000 spies, where is the list? did you hear he say the list? 1000 spies? Give me a break, an agricultual country with mere 20 million population, what to spy on? Australia’s Kagooro use two leg to run? Yes, CHina made mistake before, but it is changing toward the right direction, people’s living standard has greatly improved.
stop listening to the creepy FLG, these people are sick, they burn themself saying that that is the way to go to heaven. Do you guys really know the real faace about FLG? CHen makes up story just to fool you butch of naive people, ask your surrounding normal CHinese people ( not the FLG), hear their opinion!!
CHen just want to stay in Australia. ofcourse, Sydney is a nice place to live, beautiful place, fresh air. with GDP 27 times of CHina’s. he sells his soul in order to be accepted by another country. shame on him!
Go to CHina, live there, really understand CHina and CHinese people, that is my advise to you. Naive!!!

July 11, 2005 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

May, the bad news is most of us HAVE indeed lived in China. And we have a lot of love for Chinese people, and a deep understanding of politics there. That is why we believe Chen Yonglin and wish him the very best.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:14 pm | Comment

“you guys are brainwashed by western propoganda. Have you even lived in China, been to China lately?”
Hey May, guess what? I have spent the past 3 years in China, and was here on-and-off in the 4 years of college before that.
I regret to inform you that you have been brainwashed by Chinese propaganda! And did you know that all the media in China is pure propaganda? Do you know how many things go on in the world that you simply are not told about and completely don’t understand?
“Do you guys really know the real faace about…?”
I think a better question is, do you know? Do you know anything besides the usual propaganda that has been forced down your throat since a young age?
“ask your surrounding normal CHinese people”
Who are normal Chinese people? Those who agree with your narrow-minded view of the world? Sorry, in fact, your view is anything but normal. I know plenty of normal Chinese people, and they would find your comments basically idiotic.
“Go to CHina, live there, really understand CHina and CHinese people, that is my advise to you. Naive!!!” You’ve been fooled, May, you’re the one whose naive, and maybe sometime you’ll have a chance to figure that out. Until then, don’t go spreading your utter ignorance and Chinese BS propaganda around the Internet, it leaves a bad impression.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:24 pm | Comment

I wish Chen the best of luck, and hope that some day May will be able to really understand China.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:25 pm | Comment

Kevin, go easy on May. She is probably a really decent person, and the product of her environment.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:26 pm | Comment

The head of China’s prison system insisted yesterday that there were no political prisoners in his country.

“There are no political prisoners in China because in China every person can give his political views,” Du Zhongxing said during a visit to Sydney’s Long Bay jail.

Tell it to Ngwang Sangdrol:

Ngawang Sangdrol’s story began in August 1990 when she and fellow nuns from the Garu nunnary 5 km north of Lhasa attended a pro-independence demonstration at Norbulingka, the Dalai Lama’s former summer palace in Lhasa. Ngawang was arrested and – despite being only 13 years old at the time was tried and sentenced. According to reports from released fellow prisoner Palden Gyatso, Ngawang received beatings whilst in custody so severe that her hands have been permanently damaged.

Whilst in Lhasa’s Drapchi prison, Ngawang and thirteen other Buddhist nuns recorded Tibetan protest songs. For this offence the group was sentenced to additional years in prison. A tape of their singing was smuggled out of the prison. In July 1996, a further nine years – bringing the total to 18 – was added to Ngawang’s sentence. Her ‘crimes’ were refusal to stand up when an official entered the room during a political re-education session, failing to tidy her quarters satisfactorily and shouting “Free Tibet!” during punishment.

Or Yu Dongyue:

RSF has called on European Commission President José Manuel Barroso to use the upcoming European Union-China Summit to urge Chinese authorities to free journalist Yu Dongyue after reports that he has gone insane as a result of being tortured in prison.

On 11 July 1989, Yu was convicted of “sabotage” and “making counter-revolutionary propaganda”. The Beijing Intermediate People’s Court sentenced him to 20 years in prison and five years loss of civic rights. He was also accused of writing articles about freedom of expression and “having very daring ideas about art”. His sentence was cut by two years in March 2000, but he is not due for release until 21 May 2007.

Or any of these 811,102 people:

China arrested more than 800,000 people last year for endangering state security, a top official said Wednesday. In total, 811,102 people were held, an 8.3 percent increase from 2003. Authorities last year prosecuted 867,186 people in connection with those crimes, said Jia Chunwang, head of the Supreme People’s Procuratorate n his annual report to the National People’s Congress (NPC), or parliament. China’s security situation last year was “grave”, he said. “(We were) resolute in smashing crimes which endanger state security,” Jia told lawmakers. Endangering state security is a term China’s communist leaders use to detain people who oppose its rule.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:27 pm | Comment

You’ve obviously fallen for the lies of the running dogs, Conrad. There is no political persecution in China, a nation firmly committed to rule of law.

July 11, 2005 @ 8:52 pm | Comment

yeah, sorry may, i’m a nice guy. i had a bad morning because on the way to my office there was a light rain, and everyone decided that the laowai would definitely want to buy an umbrella. actually i had one at home, but it was just a light rain, so i didn’t take it. thus, my entire walk to work i was besieged on all sides by people saying “hello!” and pushing umbrellas in my face.
then i got here and saw may’s comments about not understanding China… oh man. anyway, may, if you would like to know more about China, I would be happy to share with you, I think you have plenty to learn still. remember that Chen is a person, just like you, and he does not mean to offend you through his actions. I think you should learn more about him.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

is this website run by FLG, or supported by Taiwan’s DaiDu?
you guys are just unreal!! you still have not answered my question: so where is Chen’s 1000 spy list? He is not a lair, so where is the list? what worth Chinese people to spy on Australia? I’m from CHina, and I also lived in Japan, Australia and US for long. Guess what, you guys keep talking about CHina’s human right this or that. you know we Chinese people are fine, and we are happy where the CHinese government now are taking us, our living standard are improved greatly. and we have greater freedom never before, we can travel abroad, we can even critise our government without getting trouble. China is changing, and toward right direction. you guys say CHina is this bad that bad, no law, no human right. I bet you are not really well read. did you guys lately read the magazine Times, special edition about “China’s new revolution”. the magazine’s cover is MaoZeDong’s face. the articles describes Changing CHina. these reports wrote by American, so not China’s propoganda. you guys seems know about FLG by listening to what they said what they are, do you really believe their torture picture is real? Just think: so the Communist party allow the FLG to take picture when they torture people? give me a break, you people! use your brain think!!
I’m not saying everything is good with China and CHinese government, but we are improving. Kevin, CHina si bad, no human right, etc is the opion you got by livinng in China for a couple of years, I doubt which years were they, or you just merely waste your time there! Normal people? what kind of normal Chinese you ask about China, if they answer you by saying all thing about China is bad, no human right, no law. then I bet, they are not normal Chinese people. one thing for sure, Chen will not be popular, Chinese people when he goes back China, but I’m not sure if he will be procecuted, or killed.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:17 pm | Comment

He never said he had a list. He said there were about 1000 Chinese spies in Australia.

You can tell me how happy everyone in China is with the government. But trust me, I can show you hundreds of stories of poor people and brave reporters arrested, tortured, even murdered by your loving government simply for raising questions. Browse through this blog if you really want to learn.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:21 pm | Comment

wow, all my regrets about being too hard on may just went out the window! anyway, i hope she will have a chance to look at this site and learn more.
“we can even critise our government without getting trouble.” sorry, that just shows a clear lack of knowledge.
“is this website run by FLG, or supported by Taiwan’s DaiDu?” Classic.
may, you’re livin’ a lie, babe!

July 11, 2005 @ 9:35 pm | Comment

I have never said CHina is perfect, there are unfair things in China. but can’t you guys answer my question: CHina is changing toward more freedom country. isn’t it? can you guys deby it. I’m living in a lie, I think you guys just not been to enough
places. I’ve also lived in Japan, AUstralia, and US. there is unfairness in every country. remember China is a country with 1.3 billion population, the CHinese goverment have successfully taken 400 million people out of porverty in the last decade, isn’t it something that we should give credit for? I think you guys are living in a lie, not me. open your mind, think and not just anti-CHina please!

July 11, 2005 @ 9:44 pm | Comment

Perhaps the real reason for Chen’s defection will never be know to the public. But I just couldn’t help noticing the timing of this event. It happened at a time when:
1) Australia and China’s economic relation seemed to be at its all time high. (The first group of Chinese resource managers arrived at OZ for training on 3/5);
2) The first Confucius Institute in OZ was officially launched on 20/5;
3) Wu Bangguo visited OZ.
It was also interesting that the best written public defends of Chen Yonglin were posted by Geremie Barme and Gary Brown. Both of them are not really admirers of the Howard Government’s foreign affairs policy. I couldn’t help thinking that Chen Yonglin is probably just a pawn in a tug-of-war game between opposition factions in the OZ political arena.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:45 pm | Comment

no matter what changes have occurred in China over the past 20 something years, there are things that occur that simply should not occur. also in terms of freedom of speech and publication, china has made no moves since 89, and has even shown plenty of signs of backsliding recently. come on, i read the chinese media everyday may, in the original chinese, so please don’t tell me that i am a victim of western propaganda. you simply don’t know and are a victim of your own propaganda.
i am not anti-china. in fact, i think your narrow-minded opinion is truly anti-china. you and those who think like you are doing much more harm to your country than anyone like me ever could.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:56 pm | Comment

To answer your question May, No, I do not believe that China is moving towards more freedom. Indeed, since Hu Jintao took power there has been an increase in arrests and prosecutions for political “crimes” and a tightening of controls on the media and internet.

Is China more free than it was under Mao? Yes, but Mao was a murderous tyrant and one of the worst villians in history. China is still under repressive single-party rule and lacks basic human rights.

May, you will find that most of the commenters here are not anti-China at all. We are anti-CCP. They are not the same thing, despite decades of government propaganda to the contrary.

July 11, 2005 @ 9:58 pm | Comment

India is also a country with a lot of population. why don’t you guys do some home work comparing the numbers and start to criticise Chinese government.
Also, so what kind of Spy Chen is talking about? is it the spy people normally think? so he said 1000 but no proof, you believe him? answer my question.
final advise again: read Times magazine’s special edition: China’s new revolution.
then we can talk

July 11, 2005 @ 10:04 pm | Comment

may, i’ve read china’s new revolution. i don’t know what you want to point out by referring to that. it never said that there was much development in politics or rights, did it?
i don’t see why you think a time special is going to change my opinion of China. i have read plenty of magazine articles about china. that is in fact one of my hobbies. and i am sorry to say it seems that you don’t know much about china, judging by your comments.
and what’s with the india thing?

July 11, 2005 @ 10:10 pm | Comment

current chinese government is run by CCP, so you anti Chinese government is anti CCP. you guys still do not undestand, China’s communist party is no longer communist anymore, it is now changing to traditional ruling government like old China times. people say China is Cummunist country, as a matter of fact, CHina is not real Communist country any more. North KOrea maybe still is.
Kevin, you sound like a member of FLG, or you from DaJiYuan? Chinese government (CCP) have done great things for their people though sure there is short comings. But I doubt any other party will do better job to manage such a huge country. certainly not FLG or the people from DAJiYuan

July 11, 2005 @ 10:15 pm | Comment

I have already read it May. Now you should read “China’s Peasants: A Survey.

Opps, sorry, you can’t. It has been banned by the Chinese government.

As book titles go, it is not the most arresting, but China’s Peasants: A Survey proved so controversial that it was banned by the Communist authorities just a month after publication.

Written by a husband and wife, Chen Guidi and Wu Chuntao, it chronicles official abuse, corruption and violence in their home province, Anhui, and has cast a harsh light on rural life in China at a time when the world is absorbed by the spectacular expansion of its cities.

http://tinyurl.com/d276g

July 11, 2005 @ 10:15 pm | Comment

Chen Yonglin’s case is not about China, Chinese spies or whether China is moving towards more freedom. It is about Australian politics and the ambivalent attitude of the Australian intellectuals towards China. So Kevin and Conrad, give May a break. May, you don’t have to defend yourself against Kevin and Conrad. You are all entitled to you opinion and feeling about China and the CCP. But Chen’s case is not remotely related to whatever you are arguing about

July 11, 2005 @ 10:16 pm | Comment

It is very low to make fun of Chen for his “broken English”. Why mei had to do that. It was not the point. You mad our Chinese look bad ! I do not see too many other people making fun of Chen’s broken English!

July 11, 2005 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

yeah, all i can say is i’m glad they gave him a visa, and i hope he continues to share more information, as he has been doing of late.
congrats, mr. chen!

July 11, 2005 @ 10:25 pm | Comment

oh, Kevin. now I even more believe you are FLG member or from DaJiyuan. And you did not read Times magazines special edition: China’s new revolution. there are full two pages talking about China’s political, human right reform. these are things the American really care about you think , you think they will miss these? In the article, it says now days people cursing Chinese gorvernment or communist party in the street maybe seem as nuts, but definetley will not get arrested. In the article, it also describes CCP’s new tolarate toward religious freedom( but ofcourse Not the creepy FLG, haha), also mention Shanghai mayor new political reform etc. anyway, don’t pretent you read this special Times edition unless you really do.
If you really want to understand more about the new CHina, and not fool yourself, living in the lies, read it.

July 11, 2005 @ 10:29 pm | Comment

May, the situation in China is complex. The CCP has done some good for a lot of people, but mainly it has been for its own hgood and to stay in power. Kevin is not FLG and he knows China very well. I understand and respect your attitude toward your government. I do think if you try to learn more about what they have actually done, weho they have hurt and who they have helped, you wll see there is a reason Kevin (and I) say these things. There is incredible suffering in China by so many of its citizens, and such a horrible imbalance of wealth and prosperity. And the corruption of the CCP guarantees it will continue. And May, we only write about this because we care and want to see the lives of people we love in China made better. I promise.

July 11, 2005 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

Hai May.
You make a good point that not everything about China is wrong or bad. A good example you made is raising 400 million people out of poverty. Excellent. And trying to get education to all children in China. Again a point in China’s favor.

As you have had overseas experiences you can surely understand some of the negative attitudes some foreigners, including some here, have about China. What about the censorship exercised by the CCP? Do you know that the CCP censors TV news from Hong Kong into the mainland? Do you know the CCP blocks websites and blogs that have information or comments that it does not want the Chinese people to know about or discuss? Do you recognize that if news or information exists that makes China or CCP “look bad” the CCP will deny it and suppress it (e.g. AIDS problem starting in Henan, SARS problems in Guangdong and Beijing in the beginning)? Do you know that when some brave people tried to set up a peaceful political party in China they were arrested and put in jail? Do you know that the CCP won’t tell Chinese parents what happened to their children who went missing during the 6/4 Tsquare incident?

I could go on and on, but I want to know if you are really aware of the some of the bad stuff the CCP does. And hides from the Chinese people to “paint the beautiful picture of China” for you, thus keeping you all compliant with the wishes of the CCP and easier to deal with. It’s called keeping the people dumb and happy.
You, May, sound like you are too aware to accept all the CCP BS and lies at their face value. The question that is what do you do about it. Just blame the foreigners? Or question what you have learned from the CCP and its rigged education and news delivery systems and try to make a difference by being realistic about the negative aspects of China.

July 11, 2005 @ 10:54 pm | Comment

sorry may, i don’t think you are representing the time special issue very well at all. and yes i did read it. and it did not paint the beautiful picture that you wish to paint. i’m sorry.

July 11, 2005 @ 10:56 pm | Comment

How could you know Kevin is not FLG or from DAjiyuan? so you both together? what I’m trying to say is exactly : China is complex, and no any single party in the world is perfect. CCP are also people, there are good people among them, there are also bad people among them who do bad things. but majoritily they have done good things for its people these years. SO don’t just say CCP all bad. oh, funny thing CHen said is about the kidnapping thing. the person CHen said his son was kidnapped is just one of the corrupt CCP official who stole money over 5 billion RMB from Chinese people, it proved that CHen lied about the whole kidnap thing. but really, I think CHinese government should take what ever action to take him back to CHina to justice. so Chen say Chinese government should not punish corrupt CCP official? Chen is so funny, a greedy lair! he will not have good ending!! He has betrayed his own country who gave him so much, now in order to be accepted by another counry, he can make up stories. he is the lowest person. go to hell! Chen!

July 11, 2005 @ 10:58 pm | Comment

Here’s a quote from Time, in fact: Almost anything goes these days–but you still can’t oppose the Communist Party. Will China ever really be free?
sounds like you misrepresent things, may

July 11, 2005 @ 11:00 pm | Comment

no may you are the lowest, and a liar to boot

July 11, 2005 @ 11:02 pm | Comment

Congradulations Richard, I see that you’ve picked up a few trolls of your own.

Chinese people aren’t brainwashed?

Ha! Why do primary schools have a need for a “Dept. of Political thought”? I’ve noticed one in many of the primary schools that I’ve toured.

May is right about one thing, the CCP is no longer ruled by true communists. They’re full fledged fascists.

People have freedom in China? News to me because from what I’ve seen during my stays in China the police are the only ones who have freedom. Freedom to arrest and detain anyone they wish, freedom to haul pregnant mothers off for an abortion, freedom to torture and kill for any offense that is deemed as a threat to the governments hold on power.

Really May, if you’ve been to the US and other foreign countries, why didn’t you take the opportunity to access the unrestricted information that you had available to learn something truthful about your government instead of the bullshit lies you are fed by Xinhua and the People’s Daily?

July 11, 2005 @ 11:02 pm | Comment

admit it, Kevin, you did not read the article. otherwise you would read the contents. I have the magazine just right beside me, I know what is on in. you are member of FLG or from Dajiyuan. I think… so it is not worth response to you anymore… bye

July 11, 2005 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

So Richard, are you suggesting that the suffering and the disparity of wealth in China will dispear when the CCP is no longer in power?

July 11, 2005 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

Fat Cat, not at all. I don’t pretend to have any other solution except gradual reform and change. But reform is now going backwards in many ways. More arrests, more censorship, less free speech…

July 11, 2005 @ 11:06 pm | Comment

China would become a county like
Mexico or Philippines if not fundamentally change its current way of governing. CCP or not CCP is not the point. We need to learn the success stories of Japan, Korea and Singapore but learn lessons from the philippines,Mexico, etc.
Mexico is very similar to China’s development. After many year’s of development Mexico has not been a country of wealth even though there a small percent of very rich people in the county due to rampent corruptions like we see today in China. I do not see CCP will be able to fix the problem by itself even it may try to. Many of the problems in China today are derived from CCP itself. China will still be able to grow but it will probably end up like Mexico 50 years later if no major reforms occur in next 10 or 20 years.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:06 pm | Comment

Gordon, I’ve been us for 3 years, and I’m now in the US. I also lived in Japan and Australia. tired talk to you people, read Times Magazine special edition: CHina’s new revoltion. yourself please. you guys are so deeply in poison. I don’t want to waste my time here anymore. Hope God help you. CHINA, CHINESE GOVERNMENT, CCP are NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK!!! WE CHINESE ARE FINEGordon, I’ve been us for 3 years, and I’m now in the US. I also lived in Japan and Australia. tired talk to you people, read Times Magazine special edition: CHina’s new revoltion. yourself please. you guys are so deeply in poison. I don’t want to waste my time here anymore. Hope God help you. CHINA, CHINESE GOVERNMENT, CCP are NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK!!! WE CHINESE ARE FINE< AND HAPPY with our CCP goverment !! bye

July 11, 2005 @ 11:08 pm | Comment

Gordon, I don’t consider May a troll — just someone who needs some exposure to alternative viewpoints.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:08 pm | Comment

Richard,

Maybe you’re right, but I consider anyone who continually froths partyline talk without question to be a troll. Especially one that actually has access to ample ammounts of unrestricted information.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone that doesn’t dare to challenge their own lines of thinking.

May is just a product of the system that created her.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

Sorry Richard, I’m not trying to be nasty to you. I am just arguing for argument’s sake. But I do agree with you and with Nanjinger that the current political and ecomomic policy in China is not working very well at all. The ownership and accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few is really worrying. And unfortunately, I don’t have an answer for that either.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

Nanjinger,

I think there may be some truth in your comparisons between China and Mexico. In fact, I had somewhat of a similar conversation with AM just yesterday about that. However, while Mexico and China are similar as far as corruption goes, the governments are still quite different.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:19 pm | Comment

Hey May,

Drop the Times article. Time is a crappy magazine for the masses. Two pages is not information.

Yes, China is making leaps and bounds, but still has a long way to go. Read Zhongguo Nongmin Diaocha, like Conrad says (Conrad, you can buy the book on every street corner in Beijing from the DaoBan guys – that’s where I got my copies)

July 11, 2005 @ 11:23 pm | Comment

May, I live in China, I’ve been coming here off and on for 7 years now. I’ve dated several Chinese girls, I now have a Chinese wife, my language professor in college was from Wuhan and my Chinese foreign policy professor was born and raised in the Fujian province until he and his family fled from persecution. He also served two US Presidents as an advisor on Chinese foreign policy.

Not one educated and well traveled Chinese person has yet to make the same denials to me about the Chinese government than you just have.

July 11, 2005 @ 11:23 pm | Comment

well, i’m done with my meditation exercises… oh, i mean, lunch…. gosh, may figured me out!
but seriously, the “I think… so it is not worth response to you anymore… bye” wow, that was quite a doozie.
i took the time to respond to may’s comments, although they seemed to be way out of line with reality, and that’s what i get.
i guess it must be hard for may to face the fact that (s)he has such a poor understanding of his/ her own country on account of its screwed-up system. the automatic response for a lot of people when faced with a reality that contradicts their own official “reality” is that they freeze up and close their eyes to what they see. i guess that way it is more comfortable.
anyway, i hope may spends time learning more about china while in the us (if actually there, which i doubt), because there is much more info available.
people’s daily website is not blocked in the us. why are so many us websites blocked here in china, may?

July 11, 2005 @ 11:26 pm | Comment

May:

You assert the “CCP’s new toler[ance] toward religious freedom” (but of course Not the creepy FLG)”.

You mean this new tolerance:

Beijing, 5 July 2005 — The Catholic bishop of the Hebei province in northern China was arrested outside his home on Monday, according to a Vatican missionary news agency. Monsignor Julius Jia Zhiguo, 70, was taken away to an unknown destination.

According to Asianews, Jia who was ordained a bishop in 1980, has already spent 20 years in prison and lives almost constantly under house arrest.

This is the bishop’s sixth arrest since January 2004.

Or this tolerance:

A Hong Kong businessman accused of smuggling thousands of bibles into China has been sentenced to two years in prison.

When he was arrested last year, Li Guangqiang was accused of spreading “an evil cult” – a crime that can carry the death penalty in China.

July 12, 2005 @ 12:41 am | Comment

Conrad:

tinyurl.com?

July 12, 2005 @ 12:50 am | Comment

“May, you will find that most of the commenters here are not anti-China at all. We are anti-CCP. They are not the same thing, despite decades of government propaganda to the contrary.”

I don’t find this believable at all. The decades of communist control have essentially transformed the party into the state and the propaganda is in fact quite truthful. As the song goes, without the communist party, there is no new China. It is difficult to distinguish where the party ends and public institutions begin and vritually impossible to separate the two. The Communist Party has become the state and without the party there is going to be chaos.

I should note that it warrants mentioning that such a reaction as exhibited by May isn’t neccessarily the result of blatant propaganda as it is merely a reactive outburst against criticism of the state. You Conrad and Gordon are noted to indulge in this all the time, launching withering tirades against those who utter what you perceive to be negative criticism towards American policy. It is a simple matter of pricked pride and those who are narcissitic enough to be blogging political issues to begin with generally have it in spades (me being no exception). Inside the shiny veneer of any conservative freedom loving (or not see freedom loving in the case of May) ubermensch lies the dark heart of a tribal atavist. Perhaps that is too harsh and exaggerated a term, but the socialization of the individual instills upon most people a predeliction towards statism.

On the issue of anti-Chineseness here at the duck. I would have to say it is a real issue. Most of the commenters may insist that they are perfectly rational individuals and that their criticisms of China are not in the least bit hysterical. I would challenge this assumption on two reasons. First as I mentioned it is difficult enough to disassociate the party with the state and the gweilo does not have some natural advantage by virtue of being foreign to properly splice the stratums of Chinese politics or society . The commentary here and expatriate China blogs in general tends to be very personal and many when they address China issues, this closeness can be a liability. Within the space of a single paragraph there can be a reasoned arguement against the party-state, a critique of Chinese society, and a vitriolic tirade over a personal peeve all rolled into one. Most bloggers are not writing professionally and this leads to a certain ambiguity of meaning. It is from this that one can easily draw the perception that a person is just projecting his personal bile onto the state or society at large.

The second factor is related in the first in that it pertains to the use of language when writing. To help approach this subject I will draw upon a recent parallel, I am sure everyone by now is aware of the situation of Anne Meyers. Simply put, the relevant commentary is often laced with nuances, some subtle, others blatant, that carry untold signficance when attempting to communicate thoughts to others. To be succint, often times the writing here can be a mix of boorish, condescending, irreverent, acrimonious, and occassionally stupid. For those who haughtily proclaim their love of China, they certainly have poor manners of expressing it. I will not insist that people are racist and I doubt anyone here truely is. Yet a man claiming to be without prejudices is either a saint or a liar. Forgive me if you will for channeling Said, but just as there are a myriad of cultural and social factors that weigh in on Chinese perceptions of the west (as almost everyone has seized upon), likewise there is equal number of norms governing the expatriates relationship with China.

To restate the above, the medium of language can cause unintended shifts in meaning for readers. A writers on prejudices may be in part responsible or it could as easily be poor writing or comprehension that mitigates the intended message. To add a personal anecdote, when I initially started blogging I had someone accuse me of being a raging anti-semite. To say the least I was non-plussed by what I perceived to be a scurrilous and libelous charge and reciprocated by baiting him further. Looking back, that could have been a mistake and only inflamed the situation, a situation in equal parts a result of my poor choice of words and his inability to detect sarcasm.

With all that being said, I hope everyone takes what I wrote into consideration, then again, feel free to dismiss me as another May writ large, albeit one with a superior command of English. I’ve become quite accustomed to criticism of China and it flows as water across a Duck’s (Peking of course) back. However, many Chinese readers whos familiarity with English maybe limited could derive a far different conclusion from the intended and unintended sub-context of the China related writing here and elsewhere.

July 12, 2005 @ 1:44 am | Comment

The Communist Party has become the state and without the party there is going to be chaos.

That quote and the thinking that it represents embodies precisely what is wrong with the CCP.

The fact is that the CCP has itself unleased more chaos upon China than any other actor in Chinese history. Even the Mongol hoards caused less death and disruption.

Furthermore, the idea that the CCP is all that stands between China and chaos is astounding arrogance. It is also the opposite of the truth. Indeed, the most likely cause of future turmoil in China is for the CCP to continue to reject political reform and cling to a monopoly on power until unrest results.

Like the CCP, Louis XIV famously said “L’Etat, c’est moi” (I am the state) and look how things worked out for the Bourbon dynasty.

July 12, 2005 @ 2:01 am | Comment

Conrad,
I am not buying the argument that the CCP is evil or that the removal of the CCP will be beneficial to China. I think that it is OK to have the CCP as one of the political parties in China, as long as other political parties are allowed to play a role in the Governing of China. The problem of course is that the leadership in China is not open to this kind of suggestions. The election issue in Hong Kong is an example par excellence. The continuous advocating of freedom of election and freedom of speech in China is more important than the advocating of the removal of the CCP.

July 12, 2005 @ 2:14 am | Comment

At the crux of our disagreement Conrad is an ideological divergance that I don’t think can be bridged. Also it warrants mentioning that I hardly believe that you have either the interests of China or the Chinese people at heart.

July 12, 2005 @ 2:32 am | Comment

Well, the deal is done and CY has his visa. Next on the list is a BJ professor and an ex 610 enforcer.

I have a question. Is it in the nature of the CCP to shoot itself in the foot to spite its face. Can Australia expect payback from the CCP in the form of economic sanctions and limitations to trade despite the negative effects this would have on the Chinese economy?

On a side note. What is the banking system like in China. Would investment in the Chinese financial services sector expose an Australian company to substantial risk. Is the fss owned by the CCP?

July 12, 2005 @ 5:26 am | Comment

Sage words from Jing.

Even if a westerner lives in China a long time, they are still a product of western culture and philosophy.

We have to constantly be on guard against latent biases that are hard to detect precisely because they are so natural to our mode of thinking.

I wish we could get more views here from English-speaking foreigners from other nations, it would really place some of these issues in a better perspective. Unfortunately, they’re all probably posting in their own native language echo chambers. 🙂

July 12, 2005 @ 7:50 am | Comment

Frankly, I don’t care whether he is telling the truth or not, just as long as Autralia stands up to Beijing over this.

If Australia believes him, then good on them for not bowing to Beijing and sending him back, maybe one day the west will have sufficient balls to start stiring thing up a bit more, like over Tibet, an ddemocracy in Hong-Kong.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:04 am | Comment

True enough Slim but this particular subject (foreigner’s racist/anti-Chineseness) borders on an obsession with some people and they would earn themselves far more respect with me if they sometimes, just sometimes turned their zeal towards Chinese racism which is just as real.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to turn this into a tit-for-tat bun fight as I totally agree with what you say but either these people who constanly bang on about how foreigners “look down” on Chinese people either don’t care about Chinese racism or are of the opinion that it doesn’t exist.

If either one of those if even half true, then their credibility lies in tatters. In my personal opinion.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:23 am | Comment

Richard, could you please do me a favour and change Conrad’s long daily telegraph link to this tinyurl?

http://tinyurl.com/d276g

I’ve only read Jing’s comment really as it’s just too much hassle scrolling backwards and forwards all the time.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:26 am | Comment

Australian government is stupid in believing in Chen’s lies, it is so obvious. where is the list, where are the spies, what kind of spies are they? can they be called spies? the westerner are so naive, anything that anti-chinese government they believe. now more people who want better live in Australia, and have no other mean to apply for visa ( I bet CHen does not have that $250,000 to do investor visa, and his age is too old to get immigation point, he has no other way to appy for Australian visa, therefore he jump out seeking political asylum. I myself applied visa, and I know some CHinese applied political Asylum. ) you westerner are so naive!!! Chen will go to Hell for his greed!!

July 12, 2005 @ 9:28 am | Comment

Why are we westerners so naive yi? To be honest, I still haven’t fully made up my mind about Chen simply because not all the facts have come out yet. Maybe we’ll never know the real story.

However, you seem to have made you mind up despite all this. I can understand you feeling angry because you’re Chinese but (mind you I wouldn’t feel lilke this if a Brit defected, I’m pretty sure about that) better that we have more information before deciding if his allegations are correct or wrong. Don’t you agree?

July 12, 2005 @ 9:42 am | Comment

Martyn, done. If this happens again (and it will) click on the TIME and not on the word Comments, and you’ll be able to see all the comments fine.

Yi, you don’t win any credibility by shouting out silly accusations. Chen is not the devil, he is, I believe, a decent man who got sick of working for the devil.

July 12, 2005 @ 10:07 am | Comment

because it is so obvious, what the CHinese can spy on in Australia? have you lived there? I lived there for 5 years. it is a beautiful but quite place. an agricultual country with mere 20 million population, Sydney mere 5 million population. what to spy on? give me a break. the animal in Australia use two legs to run?
If CHina need 1000 spies in AUstralia, then how many the CHinese need in the US, the UK and worldwide? what a joke!! until now he still can not come out any valid spy list, what does it mean to you?
I know the cases CHinese people who applying for political asylum, so I’m very aware of these people’s thinking and their situation.
Chen is just one of those people. the
difference is he is making such a noise. He will go to Hell, he is the lowest of the lowest human being!

July 12, 2005 @ 10:10 am | Comment

Chen has his right to leave. If he does not like it, why should he stay?

As to his spy claims, well, he has to make a living. That is all he got and he has to get some mileage from it.

As to his future, I think he will live well. Just look at Harry Wu. He fabricated all lies and still get funding from US government. Everyone need some dogs.

I have found many people here hate almost everything related to CCP. Well, if I were you, I will get the hell out of China. Learn from Chen. Do not be a loser to get angry and torture yourself everyday.

July 12, 2005 @ 10:21 am | Comment

yah, Chen has the right to leave. a decent person will use proper way to get what he wants, not like him making up stories and harm other people. this is a basic principle as a decent human being.

July 12, 2005 @ 11:32 am | Comment

That’s slightly like saying “If you don’t like Nazism, leave Germany”

Ideally we shouldn’t simply seek to remove the problem of CCP misrule from our own news ledgers and put on nice little blinders.

We pay attention to China not simply for our own masochistic self-flagellation, but because we hope that someday, maybe it can be a better place.

And if this Chen incident is any guide, doing so requires not ignorance, but steady vigilance from the governments, media, and blogs of the non-Chinese world (and hopefully from within it as well).

July 12, 2005 @ 11:38 am | Comment

I’ve noticed that anyone who dares to criticize China must be FLG or that other DaJ–thing.

Does the concept of constructive criticism exist in the PRC, or is everyone out to, in Hu’s words, “divide China”..

July 12, 2005 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

“Does the concept of constructive criticism exist in the PRC, ”

Indeed, China needs constructive criticism. Unfortunately, I did not see much here.

Constructive criticism means examining the issue by its own merit and present a balanced analysis.

A propaganda is to associate a case with a negative symbol, in most case CCP, and try to discredit the others.

A constructive criticism requires people to have chinese best interest at their heart.

I actually think oversea criticism will keep CCP on edge and work to the best interest of China. I am sure many of them find your life in China enjoyable. It is just I did not sense it.

July 12, 2005 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

to steve

as a matter of fact, many Chinese are really happy living in China, life here is getting better day by day. China is changing, in fact my parents lived in London for 6 months and they were so happy when they back home. the food and living space in China are so much better. you guys just think that the life in CHina is so bad, every one is in deep hot water, it is so funny, and untrue.
when I back home, I see my old time class mates, oh, my God, they all living in much better apartment, and all have maids. life in China is not so bad at all. certainly there are poor people in China too like every where else in the world. and ofcourse SYdney’s environment is much better, clean air, beautiful sunny day, beachs etc.

July 12, 2005 @ 12:39 pm | Comment

Dajiyuan is a Falun Dafa operated publication similar to the Epoch Times.

Constructive criticism exists, but Falun Dafa as an organization is not interested in anything constructive. Their modus operandi is a simple all out propaganda war against the Communist Party. Relying on actual failings of the party when they can, and manufacturing crimes when they feel like it. In truth this is their only manner in which they can fight, as the state can simply toss them into prison at their discretion.

Falun Dafa has metamorphed from its original body, a quack new age empowerment movement (see scientology), to its present form, an organization dedicated to political warfare. Something that no one has noticed, but Falun Dafa operates practically no charitable organizations or local community aid services. Falun Dafa raises money to service the goals of the movement, nothing else. All funds principally go to funding loss-making (Their newspapers are free) media ventures that propogate awareness of Falun Dafa and its campaign against the communist party.

There is plenty of criticism of China, but if they touch certain taboos expect a cold response. For one thing, the party is corpulently corrupt, it has utterly failed China for 30 years and only in the last two decades has any manner of progress been acheived. Futhermore party discipline is poor and it is difficult to control local cadres. It is also sometimes needlessly repressive. With that being said, I agree with the party in that Falun Dafa should be extinguished as they are a useless nuisance whos political campaign undermines the efficacy of Chinese international policy. I and most Chinese subscribe to the notion of one China, and that Taiwan is part of China. The same applies for Tibet. As I mentioned to Conrad earlier, there is an unalterable difference in perspective here. Taiwan and Tibet are fundamental strategic interests of the Chinese state irrespective of the party, therefor criticism of the party and advocacy of independence are in essence trying to “divide China”.

July 12, 2005 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Jing,

Well said.

As usual, they will insist you are brainwashed.

It is funny that some of them are brainwashed to believe God create human being and dismiss science, while claiming others to be brainwashed. Unbelievable.

July 12, 2005 @ 2:52 pm | Comment

I don’t think he’s brainwashed. That is the very standard Chinese viewpoint. I think it’s flawed, but we are entitled to our opinion. We have discussed the Taiwan issue many, many times here so I I’d rather avoid that conversation. That’s where I think Jing’s argument disintegrates, but we all know where we stand on that issue.

July 12, 2005 @ 2:56 pm | Comment

FLG and Dajiyuan are piece of shit, I read their website and papar, they are all shit. their articles remind me of cultural revolution. I see them in New York and I see them in Sydney. they are really a bunch of low class people, who doing those anti-china thing for getting [paid from TaiDu. they are the shame of all our CHinese

July 12, 2005 @ 5:26 pm | Comment

I agree with Jing that Falun Dafa is a political nuisance to China, but that is exactly the problem. The CCP doesn’t know of any way to deal with nuisances other than by crushing them, and it is this behaviour more than anything else which undermines China’s relationships and standing with the West. Consider the hundreds of anti-war movements which have come into being since the war in Iraq. There’s no doubt they have undermined the effectiveness of the Bush administration, at home and abroad- by comparison, Falun Dafa’s agitation is barely noticeable. Do these movements (including many of the people posting here) deserve to be “extinguished” for the political problems they cause?
As for criticism of the party trying to “divide China”. Yes, that sort of thing does encourage divisions within China along ideological lines, but is that a bad thing? From the Chinese point of view, America must be hopelessly divided, yet it has still managed to become the most powerful country in the world. Why is division and dissent so poisonous to the Chinese body politic when countries such as America thrive on it- or at the least, are not harmed. Imagine how more effective and respected the CCP would be if it were not expending so much of its energy crushing enemies. They are like a person who is so afraid of catching a cold that they dose themselves up with antibiotics until they are sick.

July 12, 2005 @ 5:31 pm | Comment

There are lots of nuisances in life. You don’t have to drop nuclear bombs on them. Usually, you just have to learn to live with it.

July 12, 2005 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

You make a good point Peter, we generally consider dissent, freedom of speech and oppostion to be a good thing, and it is for us.

Unfortunately, I’m guessing that to an average mainlander, what you’re advocating is a a quick road to chaos and anarchy for China. A lot of people here in China do believe that we’re obsessed with democracy and ‘freedom’ but in China, what we call freedom, has never existed.

Go back to the Qin (200+BC), the first Legalist/Statist country in the world, the emperor ruled by brute force, then came the Western Han, and they thought it better to actually tell people what to do and why they should do it, so they were Confucionist on the outside and Legalist on the inside. Every successive dynasty more or less followed along these basic lines (FSN9 would know more about this than I).

Mao came along, centuries after the west moved away from absolute monarchial rule and implemented those same Legaist doctrines only replacing Confucionism with Socialism.

Therefore, I’m guessing that to a mainlander, they have a 2,000+ tradition of authoritarian rule which has more or less worked for a lot of the time. The idea of representative democracy is an alien concept, dangerous at best and a sure way of splitting China and ensuring chaos at best.

Also, from small they’ve been taught about the CCP and all this talk of freedom and democracy is unnecessary and irrelevant. Their priorites are a strong, rich and united China and China has always been strong when united in history. Democracy and freedom don’t even make the list I’m guessing.

I think that from a mainland point of view, they see the bad aspects of our forms of democracy, i.e. politicians relationships with big vested interests, the political lobbying, etc just as westerners focus on the bad aspects of authoritarianism, i.e. corruption, abuses of power etc.

However, one thing is for sure, and this is what commenter KLS often bangs on about, if China were to embrace freedom of speech, democracy etc overnight or even quickly, then the flodgates would open and chaos definitely would ensue so that’s simply not an option.

July 12, 2005 @ 7:23 pm | Comment

i think it’s funny that some people have the nerve refer to chen as corrupt, greedy, and the lowest form of life. they say he was greedy to live “the good life” and thus applied for his visa, to avoid going back to china. as he himself pointed out recently, he was a pretty important figure in the embassy, and if he was really so greedy and corrupt, the best thing for him to do would have been to stay on that track of officialdom, wouldn’t it? as he pointed out, those officials live a life that is millions of times more extravagant than the average person in australia, and millions of more times more extravagant than anything chen will ever enjoy now.
think about it, who is really corrupt?

July 12, 2005 @ 7:53 pm | Comment

Fair call Kevin.

July 12, 2005 @ 7:58 pm | Comment

so i think there is much more to this story that chinese propagandists would have us believe

July 12, 2005 @ 8:02 pm | Comment

oops, above: that= than

July 12, 2005 @ 8:03 pm | Comment

Kevin

you are wrong. Chen maybe tired of office work. He is not so senior after all, just a first secretary. And I bet from his poor intelligence, he may not be able to catch up with the get rich rush in CHina, and he is 37 already. It is unlikely for him to become rich in China that quick. Australia ofcourse is much better living place, I don’t mean material means, but the nature environment in Australia is really very lovely. don’t you see so many English want to immigrate to Austrlia. saying Chen is the lowest of the lowest is because he makes up story to achive his own agenda, and harming others.
. I know CHinese people who apply for political asylum, their thinking and their situation. from immigration point of view, first Chen does not have the money to do invester visa, second he is too old to get the immigration point. I applied OZ immigration visa myself, I’m very aware of these things. just give different oppion a benefit of doubt.
Kevin. Chen is really a piece of shit, he does not deserve your sympathy.

July 12, 2005 @ 8:44 pm | Comment

no may, corrupt officials are the real pieces of shit. and there are a ton of them. find me one that isn’t corrupt and i’ll run naked down nanjing road!
i have seen plenty of people lower than chen who live much more laviciously than he will ever live.
get your facts straight. liars and those who defend corrupt officials are the real pieces of shit.
and maybe we could refrain from the word “piece of shit” to describe people in the future?

July 12, 2005 @ 8:49 pm | Comment

“And I bet from his poor intelligence, he may not be able to catch up with the get rich rush in CHina”
first of all, he doesn’t seem to have any intelligence problems.
second of all, it is not about intelligence for officials, it is about guanxi.
your arguments are so propagandistic (is that a word?) that i don’t even feel the need to respond, yet i do, cuz maybe there are some things that you haven’t thought about?

July 12, 2005 @ 8:52 pm | Comment

May, you don’t help your cause by ending your reasonable argument with the phrase “Chen is a piece of shit”. No one will respect your comments if you use such English.

C’mon, let’s be absolutely fair here, Chinese people are angry because he turned his back on China and abused the postition given to him by the China Diplomatic Service. Okay, fine.

I happen to think that Chen gave up a nice, comfortable job for a great deal of uncertainy and risk so therefore I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.

With regard to his allegations of spies etc. — we simply don’t know and it doesn’t matter if he maintains his stance or China continues to deny it — we don’t know.

We know Chen has admitted lying once.

We know that his revelations re infiltration and repression of F*L*G is more or less true.

So far, this is pretty much all we have to go on. The jury is still out on Chen I’m afraid.

July 12, 2005 @ 8:57 pm | Comment

haha, Guys. see the news in http://www.chinatown.com.au, shit Chen is getting paid by the shit FLG. they pay his living expense and more. This dog, when he worked for CHinese embassy, he got paid by watching the FLG. now he starts to serve to his a new master and getting paid. we have a Chinese saying descirbe such “dog”-who ever breast feed him is his mom. haha,

July 12, 2005 @ 9:01 pm | Comment

may, i think it people like you, and people who express opinions such as your own, that are the real disgrace of the Chinese people.
get the chip off your shoulder and open your eyes.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:05 pm | Comment

Kevin

there are all short of shit people in this world. the people Chen said China kidnapped his son in order to take him back to China. He is a corrupt CCP official. He is a piece of shit too. but Chen said it is wrong to take him back to China for justice. shit chen is defending shit CCP official. Chen lied. People have found the corrut offcial’s son is still in Australia, and is about to gratuate and now looking for Job. Chen is really so shit, don’t waste your sympathy on him. he is not worth it.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:08 pm | Comment

Kevin

It sounds like you are Chen’s relative. or you work for FxxG?
all the evidence here, you still so strongly defend him with out any evidence to back your believe.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

also, i must say great source may.
i wonder why i can open chinatown.com.au from within China, and why all the articles are in Chinese BS newspeak?
if you don’t wanna show any sympathy for chen, ok, meiguanxi, i wouldn’t expect you to anyway.
but he got his visa, and there’s really not much you or your govt can do about it. that’s what makes you so mad.
again, i repeat, people who spew hate like you are the real disgrace of the chinese people, and more people should stand up to the lies and hate that propagandists such as yourself spread here everyday.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:13 pm | Comment

Jing,
I agree with your analysis of the nature of the FLG movement. But in normal circumstances, this kind of religious movement shouldn’t be considered a political nuisance to any legitimate ruling regime. In the same token, advocacy of independence by Taiwan or Tibet should not be considered as attempts to “divide China”. The fact that the Chinese government insists on making those claims betrays a lack of confidence in the CCP’s ability to keep China together.

July 12, 2005 @ 9:20 pm | Comment

Kevin

you are the one who is disgrace!!! you want to join the Chen shit club, you certainly can. nobody will stop you. if you defend chen so much, why don’t you come out some evidence instead of shouting here. are you in China, How could you know people can not open http://www.chinatown.com.au, also now we are talking about shit Chen. not talking about CHina’s web service.
repeat again, liar Chen is shit, if you want to join the shit club, go ahead. maybe you already in…

July 12, 2005 @ 9:21 pm | Comment

Kevin

people like you who respect lair and paint them as hero is disgrace. therefore Kevin, YOu are disgrace!!!

July 12, 2005 @ 9:23 pm | Comment

just to clarify (maybe may could not understand what i wrote, doesn’t seem too smart), i said that i can open:
chinatown.com.au
from China, and looking it over, it seems to be a very “official” site, with a lot of the usual BS i read every day in the newspapers.
as for the rest of may’s response, well, goddam, i think its utter idiocy speaks for itself.
anyone else wanna join “the shit club” with me? hehe

July 12, 2005 @ 9:29 pm | Comment

May, I thought we started out with a serious discussion, and now you seem to have become hysterical. Please try to be a little more polite and to listen to what others are saying. Cursing at Chen and his defenders doesn’t make your argument any stronger and damages your credibility.

July 12, 2005 @ 10:08 pm | Comment

May,
I’m wondering now whether or not you are really that “for China” as you have played out to be. My encounters with most people from diplomatic services from China give me the impression that they are decent and educated people. I don’t think that Chen is an exceptional case. Chen may have been naive. He may have been influence by the FLG movement. But it is not likely that he deliberately tells lies. In reality, he didn’t gain much from this defection. Life in OZ is not as wonderful as you think it is. Many friends of mine choose to return to their homeland rather than staying in Australia. For a start, they may have better job prospect. Now, Chen will have to cut his ties with many of his friends and relatives in China. For a Chinese person, this is a big deal.

July 12, 2005 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

Kevin

YOu are being irrational defending Chen. GIve me a reason that we should respect him. you can not, can’t you?
you simply say people like me who can not respect CHen is disgrace, you started personal insult. I think it is really FLG like. http://www.chinatown.com.au, there is a piece of news saying that FLG is paying CHen’s living expense and more, didn’t you see it? CHen think his life will be better off in Australia after 4 years been there, his daughter, wife may like there better, as I said the natrual environment in Sydeny is far btter than CHina, Australia’s GDP is 27 times of China’s. guys, I have given my plenty of evidences above regarding chen, why don’t you rebute them, and convince me that CHen is worth our Sympathy.
I applied OZ immigartion visa myself
and I know people who applied political asylum, I’m very aware of these people’s thinking and situation,read my previous writings, you guys who have not went through “go out of CHina” immgration stage, you don’t understand. Chen maybe was planning quietly applying for political asylum, but OZ government rejected him, and informed CHinese embassy, this lead him with no choice but had to jump out and shout publicly hurting his tie with CHina. Oz government informed CHinese embassy, by doing his, Chen already has no choice, but go ahead to hurting his tie with CHina. He did not expected OZ government would do that from the begining I guess. hey, what to say, you guys just don’t understand CHinese people’s ” go out of CHina” mentality.

July 13, 2005 @ 9:40 am | Comment

hey

what to say, you guys seem difficult to understand Chinese people’s immigration mentality. I don’t want to repeat myself, just read my previous writng.

the reason CHen is the lowest of lowest is he harms others by achieving his own agenda. I feel sorry for his wife and daughter

July 13, 2005 @ 9:44 am | Comment

Fat Cat

you know what, as a CHinese myself, I prefer to live in Sydney than going back to China. I know a lot of people getting rich there now. but life is not just about money, and there is no guarantee that I can be rich if I go back.

Also to Kelvin, I think your pro CHen is simply because CHen is anti-China, saying CHina is so bad etc, this fit in your bill? right? It doesnot matter what kind of person he is to you. therefore people critisize Chen is disgraceful in your eye, right? I don;t understand why you hate CHina so much, you are from Taiwan?

July 13, 2005 @ 9:57 am | Comment

I think you made two very interesting points Fact Cat.

Fact Cat said: “But in normal circumstances, this kind of religious movement shouldn’t be considered a political nuisance to any legitimate ruling regime.”

Yes, I agree. Also, the PR China is the only country where the F*L*G are both illegal and ruthlessly supressed. Both these facts reinforce your point. There are two reasons for F*L*G’s situation in China. Firstly, the CCP tolerates no organised groups within China unless they are under government control. Secondly, the number of F*L*G practicioners grew very rapidly in China and then they travelled to Beijing and Zhongnanhai and confronted the CCP.

Fact Cat said: “…advocacy of independence by Taiwan or Tibet should not be considered as attempts to “divide China”. The fact that the Chinese government insists on making those claims betrays a lack of confidence in the CCP’s ability to keep China together.”

Again, great point. China’s current policy of ‘zero-tolerance’ towards any independe*ce movements perhaps causes some people to in outer China to hate Beijing even more. China’s threats towards Taiwan and brutal supression in places like Tib*t and Xinji*ng also give China a lot of bad publicity in the world.

Perhaps a policy of engagement instead of threats with Taiwan and further autonomy or maybe a sort of ‘Chinese Commonwealth’/loose confederation in the outer areas may lesson support for independence groups.

However, China has a long tradition of Han/Sino-fication with its outer areas so I cannot see Beijing ever adopting the above policies.

July 13, 2005 @ 10:20 am | Comment

Kelvin and guys

I think you guys really don’t understand how the people in embassy been paid. they are people’s official (in Chinese called GongWuYuan), they are not get paid much money. so if Chen go back to China, he is not so finanicial well off comparing with people who work for foreigh companies, or private companies. but of course it sounds good as a deplomat. and he is just first secretary, not senior at all. life in Australia is certainly better.

July 13, 2005 @ 10:48 am | Comment

another good one, guys. use your brain think. how this happened?
Chen said his father died in 1960 in the cultural revolution by procecution. He is currently 37 years old, that means he was born in the 1968. wow, this is strange!!! so after his father died, who impregnanted his mother?

July 13, 2005 @ 4:15 pm | Comment

Yi, what is your souce for this?Chen actually said his father died “in 1960 in the cultural revolution”?? I always thought the cultural revolution stated in 1966. Where did he say this? Link, please.

July 13, 2005 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

All of our eyes are on you Yi as we await your response. I just did some heavy searching and found that his father died during the CR, not in 1960. Again, this is your moment of truth, where we will see if you are arguing seriously or just shouting whatever comes into your head. Are you there?

July 13, 2005 @ 4:26 pm | Comment

I got this from http://www.chinatown.com.au, a reader’s response. you can go there take a look how other Australian CHinese’view about him. can you read CHinese? go first to the news that about FLG supply his living expense, and then will link to chinese community’s comments about this Chen.

enjoy!!

July 13, 2005 @ 5:09 pm | Comment

Oh, so you are quoting as a fact something some aonnymous reader said on the Internet. Great. You might as well quote Mark Anthony Jones. Now we know how you work, and we know how you source your references.

I don’t mean to sound insulting (at least not very), but this goes to something else we’ve talked a lot about here: the need for Chinese people to engage in critical thinking that stands on iuts own merity based on fact and logical deduction, and not on propaganda and slogans. Sorry for being blunt Yi, but this is a prime example. You are obviously smart, but your arguments would never hold up for a second because they are the result of indoctrination, both of the emoptions and the mind. I think you just lost this argument.

July 13, 2005 @ 5:20 pm | Comment

Richard

you know what, I think I give up. what ever I say you don’t believe even you can not rebute what I said. for me and most of our Chinese it is so obvious the Chen’s case. if you say I’m influenced by Chinese propoganda, it does not suit me, as I’m well travelled. lived in many coun tries outside CHina, and ofcourse live in CHina for over 20 years. and I have relatives in CHina, I go back frequently. can you think the other way arround that you guys got strong influence by western propoganda. I like your attitude to trying to understand China. but honestly you do not really understand China. I give up, people is very difficult, promoting undertsanding? it is difficult task to do, just remember what I say, wish some time you will look back and realized what I said. I think I would say good bye to this site. and stupid me, wasting my time here. good luck with your study about China.

July 13, 2005 @ 5:33 pm | Comment

Look Yi, all I asked is that you back up your claims with attribution. You failed to do so. It has nothing to do with undestanding China or not, but with rational thought and separating fact from what you hear on CCTV. This thread has been a classic example of why Western managers in China so frequently go home and get drunk after work.

July 13, 2005 @ 5:59 pm | Comment

yeah yi, the cultural revolution started in 1966, and lasted until 1969 or 1976, depending on who you ask.
and as for may, i loved the “people’s official (in Chinese called GongWuYuan)” argument about little pay. shows that you really don’t have much understanding of how things work. i have known a people’s official or two myself, and they live very laviciously. one even had one of his “people” drive him to work every day in a BMW.
Serve the People!

July 13, 2005 @ 6:56 pm | Comment

First of all thanks Martyn for sharing my view. It meant a lot to me.
Kevin, absolutely spot on. The person from Chinese diplomatic service that I encounter actually drives a Mercedes and I had the pleasure being driven once.

July 13, 2005 @ 7:25 pm | Comment

yeah, the fact of the matter is that those who progress up the hierarchy of officialdom here have a much more materially prosperous life than chen will ever have, as far as i can see. thus i think the greed/ corruption argument falls flat on its face.
and in response to yi: “but honestly you do not really understand China. I give up, people is very difficult, promoting undertsanding?” let me tell you, if the type of understanding that you are promoting is to say that the CR was happening in 1960, then your understanding is not in fact understanding, but actually dishonesty, a desperate attempt to discredit chen.

July 13, 2005 @ 7:30 pm | Comment

Hi May,

I’d just like to say that I haven’t actually lived in China for dozens of years. However I am an annoyingly perceptive person, who has been to China, made many lasting friendships with PRC Chinese (one with a real “mei” that lasted very long) and seen enough of the country to form a relatively informed opinion.

Every country has problems. And I have not met this chappie. But first of all, how the hell is one guy supposed to memorise 1000 names? Can you remember 1000 names? Just because he was aware of “the 1000” doesn’t mean he could just photocopy their details and stroll out of the embassy with it. A Shanghaiese friend of mine said that at the very least he suspected there are 1000 or so ethnic Chinese who are willing to help the real spies out with safe-houses, if not actually do anything themselves.

But none of my Chinese friends would deny that the State violates human rights when trying to punish/extract information from political activists. I’m a Roman Catholic and I know all about how my faith is treated in China. We have to sign up to some mickey-mouse faith that is obedient to the CCP, like some Cult of Mao. If we stay true to ourselves, we have to go underground and get persecuted for practicing our religion. But officially China recognises “freedom of religion”. What a joke!

When we talk about China, we are not singling it out. We have various attachments to China and we feel for it, so we want to discuss the problems facing it. What is the title of this blog? PEKING DUCK. Not “worldwide affairs”.

China is changing but there is a real feeling that in terms of freedoms things are going backwards. And I’m not talking about being able to buy an I-pod. That’s not a freedom, that’s a luxury. People can live without I-pods. However restricting access to information of all kinds (on the internet, books, TV, radio, etc) greatly stunts a person’s view of the world they live in. I’m tired of meeting Chinese people who think Britain is some evil, imperialist nation that seems to dominate the world, because any comments on public forums that try to talk about how China supports dictators and does bad things itself in detail get censored. Someone can slag me off, but I can’t defend myself by saying “and what about you?” It takes a lot of hard work, 1-to-1 to undo all the years of squeued information they’ve accessed/been fed.

July 15, 2005 @ 7:17 am | Comment

Richard, Raj

reading this blog is close to bringing me to tears in that i finally found CHINESE people who can comprehend what we are able to see from ‘overseas’.

as a Taiwanese Australian vehemently campaigning for democracy and individualism, China seems like an insurmountable goal to convert.

BTW i agree with ur views on iraq amongst other things, would certainly like to share more opinions here given enough time.

Thanks for such a great blog and keep up teh great work.

October 12, 2005 @ 5:10 am | Comment

With all the name calling on this page and other insults, it seems that no one here has a right to criticize the Falun Dafa movement because at least its practicioners are dignified. And yes, the CCP persecutes anybody who doesn’t bow down to it. As far as Tibet goes, it may be under the control of the CCP but it is not China and never will be. It’s Tibet- get it? It is the homeland of the Tibetan people who speak the Tibetan language, have their own customs, religion and culture. It’s not Chinese. Likewise, if Taiwan is part of the mainland China, why does Taiwan have its own government and ambassadors? That’s because Taiwan is independent de facto. That’s a fact!

December 25, 2005 @ 10:46 am | Comment

have been reading with great interest the back and forths from our little champion of china ‘may’. Admittedly all parties have a valid point of view(some more valid than others!)but it appeared to me that most of the venom and vitriol spitting from the lips of poor may was motivated by pure unadulterated…sour grapes. Chen is looking forward to his new immigration status in Australia while May here has previously mentioned applying for immigration(why immigrate may, if china’s rule is so tolerable?) , but no mention of success!

January 13, 2006 @ 9:03 am | Comment

Dear May,

I am glad you finally calmed down although I do admit that your rantings were rather amusing. The thing is that China has made alot of progress in the last 20 years with phenomenal economic growth and real improvement in peoples lives. However not every one in China has benefited as a result and Human Rights are still being abused. My opinion is that China is too large to have immediate change as can be seen in the case of Russia. Nevertheless the must be pressure on the Chinese government to reform and increase the amount of freedom for its own people.

One final thought, a rose can flower from “piece of shit” so don’t lose hope May.

X

January 13, 2006 @ 5:43 pm | Comment