The Gate of Heavenly Peace

A place to congregate, comment and chat.

The Discussion: 76 Comments

Hey, I’m first! Only I have nothing to say. Funny name for the open thread Richard. Keep them coming.

June 19, 2005 @ 5:18 pm | Comment

Well, we’d all better comment so that Richard doesn’t lose face ๐Ÿ™‚

June 19, 2005 @ 5:25 pm | Comment

Martyn, where are you? I’m taking the piss over your country on my site.

June 19, 2005 @ 6:23 pm | Comment

Laowei’s post is OOTTMM!!

I just put up something about the two ZZs, and now I’m off to Dandong to stand as close to the border as I can without getting shot. And eaten.

June 19, 2005 @ 6:56 pm | Comment

If you want to avoid being eaten, just bring a dog with you.

June 19, 2005 @ 10:44 pm | Comment

Let’s hear some more about that Yangshuo incident you flashed about.
I haven’t see any yet today, even from the online SCMP summary edition.

June 19, 2005 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

an interesting blog by an american monk in mongolia (thanks to marmot for this one)…

“Well, it will come as little surprise how many Mongolians evidently get through their long, dark winter. It seems that about one out of every four young women we pass on the street is about five months pregnant.”

June 19, 2005 @ 11:45 pm | Comment

Wow, echo, thanks for the link. I went to Inner Mongolia many (many) years ago and was utterly taken by the place. I’d love to get to Mongolia proper. Wish I had some relevant linguistic skills though. More and more that tends to guide my travel – where can I go and talk to people?

Still, I would love to go to Mongolia…

June 19, 2005 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

You’re back Laowai? Taking the piss out of the UK? You mean what you wrote about our train system?

I read it last night on your site. No, be my guest, our train system has been the object of ridicule for decades.

Before your time it was once state-owned British Rail and the “Leaves on the track” or “The worng kind of leaves on the track” jokes go back to then.

Mrs. Thatcher split it up and sold it off to private companies in the 80/90’s so now it’s even worse as it’s so fragmented.

Virgin West Coast (which you had the pleasure of using) is, or was, notoriously bad.

However, there was one startling ommision from your post, prices! Outrageous. Used to be US$150 from London-Newcastle 3-hour trip Single.

June 20, 2005 @ 2:44 am | Comment

ah yes, the price. For the price of a “standard return” (I got the saver return for half the price) I could have flown from cambridge to barcelona and stayed there for two or three days, if I got a cheap ticket through ryanair.

June 20, 2005 @ 3:49 am | Comment

Exactly, and the trains and the service are nothing special.

Unfortunately, the UK has only two main lines, an east and a west coast line both going from London to Scotland.

If you want to travel anywhere between London and Scotland then you’re laughing (well, until you have to pay for the ticket of course) but if you want to do what you did (Cambridge to Cumbria?) you have to cross btween these two lines and it’s a logistical nightmare… per your return journey.

June 20, 2005 @ 4:13 am | Comment


Horse’s Mouth hasn’t updated on the story since last night. Perhaps Horse’s Mouth will come here and advise us when/if he learns anything more about the incident.

June 20, 2005 @ 5:09 am | Comment

It’s not just a joke about the leaves on the track. I was living there when they got taken by surprise by autumn and all the trains home were delayed. That (was) British Rail for you.

June 20, 2005 @ 5:49 am | Comment

Yes, British Rail being “taken by surprise” by the season of Autumn was an annual occurance!

The govt wanted to impose big fines on the private railway companies to try and make them improve service but the companies just turned round and said that the fines would be taken out of operating costs so what can you do?

June 20, 2005 @ 6:08 am | Comment

I’ve got some news. I’ve no plans to start a blog of my own … I barely have time to keep up with my Peking Duck reading and commenting as it is! But, a friend of mine in the US has a blog, and I may occasionally post stories of my own on it. There’s nothing much up there yet, but watch this space:

June 20, 2005 @ 6:31 am | Comment

That’s great Filthy. I’d be interested in reading what you post. Please notify us via the Open Threads when you post something.

What are you thinking of posting about? Current China affairs?

June 20, 2005 @ 6:40 am | Comment

haha … no idea! I’ve asked my friend to email me with details of how to login and post … I used to have authority to do it, but not at the moment … I’ll worry about what to post after I get access again!

June 20, 2005 @ 6:46 am | Comment

Yes FSN9, I echo Zoe above comments. I’m sure most people here would like to read your blog posts.

June 20, 2005 @ 6:48 am | Comment

I might get an answer from you guys. Is there an english saying with a similar meaning as “此地无银三百两โ€œ?

June 20, 2005 @ 9:02 am | Comment



I had to laugh when I saw that. The literal translation I think is “There isn’t a pile of three hundred liang in silver here, Ah-Er didn’t steal it!”

Nice translation:

Someone who is obviously guilty gives himself away by protesting his innocence too much.


When money walks, bullshit talks!

June 20, 2005 @ 9:45 am | Comment

You think British Rail is bad? What about the airports when it snows?! Wow, I love the UK…

June 20, 2005 @ 9:47 am | Comment

I’m impressed, Martyn. Did you ever hear back from Rebecca MacKinnon?

June 20, 2005 @ 9:49 am | Comment

I think the introduction of a “UK-bashing” category might be in order! don’t worry Martyn, you wouldn’t be included, although I have noticed your dangerous splittist tendencies.

June 20, 2005 @ 11:35 am | Comment

Hello everyone. I’m just reading today’s South China Morning Post and saw a statistic I thought I would share.

With regard to ‘China owning US debt via US Treasury Bonds’. Here are the three biggest holders of US TB:

Japan — US$700 billion.
China — US$200 billion
Britain — US$170 billion.

That surprised me. From what I’ve read and heard, I thought China was largely financing US debt and low-interest rates. It only holds 18.69% of US debt.

Richard, is this another myth smashed?

June 20, 2005 @ 12:00 pm | Comment

I thought China’s share of US Bonds was higher than that.

Richard, can we use the openthread’s to talk about China books?

I was just reading a review in The Economist about three brand new books about the China Economy. They all sound interesting. Link below.

โ€œThree Billion New Capitalistsโ€ Clyde Prestowitz.

Will the economic transformation of China and India mean the demise of America and a looming global economic crisis?

Pearl River Delta: The Rise of China Michael Enright

The PRD is the world’s sixteenth biggest economy and tenth largest exporter. Mr Enright argues that as China liberalises further, the PRD will benefit disproportionately.

“Made in China” Donald Sull

The author examines 8 Chinese companies, such as Lenovo and Haier, but The Economist declares that, while it may happen one day, China is not yet ready to take over the world.

June 20, 2005 @ 12:58 pm | Comment

Ben, talk about anything you’d like. No rules as far as subject matter goes.

June 20, 2005 @ 1:26 pm | Comment

Can any readers remember seeing any recent good articles comparing China and India, particularly about the economies?

Any nudge in the right direction would be much appreciated.

June 20, 2005 @ 1:27 pm | Comment

John01, it sounds like it has potential to be a myth smasher, but I’d need some more definitive research. By themselves, those figures are very surprising and would lead me to believe we are all owned by Japan. I suspect it’s a little more complex than that.

June 20, 2005 @ 1:32 pm | Comment

John01 to say that China alone is leading the way in buying US government debt would indeed be a myth, but I think the consensus is that Japan and China *together* are the biggest buyers.
Yes the figures you quote suggest that China’s role is not that significant.
But bear in mind that China only relatively recently became a serious buyer of US debt. For example, I saw somewhere saying that of its approx USD 220 billion of US government bonds, China had bought over USD 50 billion just in the last 15 months.
The point is that the recent increase in US government borrowing has been matched — made possible even? — by the willingness of Japan and China to buy.
To complicate things further, I read a reuters story earlier today about how no one is really sure exactly how much US government debt China holds.
the article is called “The whereabouts of China’s currency stash”, and the url is:

June 20, 2005 @ 2:28 pm | Comment

Yesterday Horse’s Mouth blogged about some kind of disturbance in Yangshuo, Guilin Province involving local people battling with police and something about the town being flooded with water. Quite bizarre.

Has anyone heard any more on this story?

June 20, 2005 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

Ben, it is either a rumor or a very well-kept secret. There isn’t a single word about it anywhere, not in the news or in the blogs. I hope we can learn more soon. (And for those of you who’ve never been to Yanghsuo, suffice it io say it’s among the most sublimely beautiful places on the entire planet, to the point of not even seeming to be real; nothing real can be this spectacularly gorgeous.)

June 20, 2005 @ 3:45 pm | Comment

Much appreciated Richard.

Yes, I was in Yangshuo in 1994. One of the most memorable holidays in my life. It wasn’t as commercial then. I’ve heard the town itself is a bit nasty nowadays and a bit of a tourist trap.

But forget the town, that’s nothing. As you say, the scenery is quite sublime. The word magnificent comes to mind.

If anyone hasn’t been there, you know those traditional Chinese paintings with the craggy peaked mountains/hills and clouds? A lot of those were painted around Yangshuo.

I remember in the evening, the mist used to descend down onto the river so the hill tops would be sticking out above. Very romantic! Happy days.

June 20, 2005 @ 3:56 pm | Comment

If you guys really like Yang Shuo, you won’t be disappointed if you visit Vienam!

June 20, 2005 @ 4:47 pm | Comment

Did anyone see this article about bird flu in the Wash Post?

I can’t believe that the Chinese government ignored the WHO and ordered that chickens be given antiviral drugs which effectively rendered the bird flu virus resistant to the number one antiviral drug available?

Is it just me or is this potentially serious sh*t?

June 20, 2005 @ 5:25 pm | Comment

Yes, it looks like another scandal, but this is from three days ago and no one is picking it upo. Here’s an excerpt:

Chinese farmers, acting with the approval and encouragement of government officials, have tried to suppress major bird flu outbreaks among chickens with an antiviral drug meant for humans, animal health experts said. International researchers now conclude that this is why the drug will no longer protect people in case of a worldwide bird flu epidemic.

China’s use of the drug amantadine, which violated international livestock guidelines, was widespread years before China acknowledged any infection of its poultry, according to pharmaceutical company executives and veterinarians.

Since January 2004, avian influenza has spread across nine East Asian countries, devastating poultry flocks and killing at least 54 people in Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam, but none in China. World Health Organization officials warned the virus could easily undergo genetic changes to create a strain capable of killing tens of millions of people worldwide.

โ€ข Indonesia confirms bird flu in human
Although China did not report an avian influenza outbreak until February 2004, executives at Chinese pharmaceutical companies and veterinarians said farmers were widely using the drug to control the virus in the late 1990s.

The Chinese Agriculture Ministry approved the production and sale of the drug for use in chickens, according to officials from the Chinese pharmaceutical industry and the government, although such use is barred in the United States and many other countries. Local government veterinary stations instructed Chinese farmers on how to use the drug and at times supplied it, animal health experts said.

Amantadine is one of two types of medication for treating human influenza. But researchers determined last year that the H5N1 bird flu strain circulating in Vietnam and Thailand, the two countries hardest hit by the virus, had become resistant, leaving only an alternative drug that is difficult to produce in large amounts and much less affordable, especially for developing countries in Southeast Asia.

โ€˜Itโ€™s definitely an issueโ€™
“It’s definitely an issue if there’s a pandemic. Amantadine is off the table,” said Richard Webby, an influenza expert at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital in Memphis.

Health experts outside China previously said they suspected the virus’s resistance to the medicine was linked to drug use at poultry farms but were unable to confirm the practice inside the country. Influenza researchers at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in particular, have collected information about amantadine use from Chinese Web sites but have been frustrated in their efforts to learn more on the ground.

China has previously run afoul of international agencies for its response to public and agricultural health crises, notably the SARS epidemic that began in 2002. China’s health minister was fired after the government acknowledged it had covered up the extent of the SARS outbreak by preventing state-run media from reporting about the disease for months and by minimizing its seriousness.

In interviews, executives at Chinese pharmaceutical companies confirmed that the drug had been used since the late 1990s, to treat chickens sickened by bird flu and to prevent healthy ones from catching it.

They will never change. They have no sense of responsibility to the world, only to protect themselves.

June 20, 2005 @ 6:34 pm | Comment

Re China’s holdings of US debt. The truth is even less impressive. Those figures only show the three largest “foreign” holders of US treasuries. There are of course plenty of domestic holders as well, and more international holders than just those three. So, far from even holding 18% of US debt, China holds about 9% of the foreign total and about 4% of the total total. But don’t tell this to those who believe China holds the US by the jugular on this issue, it would spoil their fantasy.

Now, if Japan stopped buying US treasuries then there would be trouble.

Note to ESWN, your article on the wealth gap in China is incorrect in claiming that the income of the poorest 10 percent grew by 7% per quarter. In fact it grew by 7% over the whole year from the first quarter of 2004. A big difference.

June 20, 2005 @ 7:44 pm | Comment


Think about exactly how much 19% of US outstanding debt represents. There are something north of 200 nations on this earth, yet China owns almost a *fifth* of US sovereign debt.

That’s pretty remarkable, if not quite Japanese yet (the Japanese are in a league of their own for a whole variety of economic and political reasons). And it is power of a sort, although not quite in the way that alarmists might have us believe. Japan is essentially a US client. China, manifestly, is not. But they can’t just dump it all on the debt markets at once, or such (at least, not if they don’t want to torpedo themselves). The system is a bit more subtle than that.

We hope.

June 20, 2005 @ 8:36 pm | Comment

Oh, also, you’ll want to look not just at total debt holdings (Japan has been buying longer than China) but at *who is buying now*. Who’s stockpile of US debt is growing the fastest? It’s the *current* purchase of debt from the US Treasury that finances the trade deficit and keeps interest low, not the holding of older debt. (Actual economists welcome to weigh in on this – layman speaking here.)

June 20, 2005 @ 8:40 pm | Comment

Damn. Killed that thread off. Lesson: Never talk economics.

June 20, 2005 @ 10:00 pm | Comment

well damn, after only a few days in operation, i tried putting up some posts in Chinese about the defectors in Australia, and I am officially no longer able to post on my blog, and my blog is blocked from my office. that was fast!

June 20, 2005 @ 10:09 pm | Comment

Dang Kevin, that’s too bad. I guess maybe English is safer….are you going to try a different blog address?

June 20, 2005 @ 11:00 pm | Comment

i guess i’ll just take a break, and see if i can open the blog again in the future

June 20, 2005 @ 11:46 pm | Comment

blog-city down?

June 20, 2005 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

The beat goes on, but to a different drummer. Iraq is again a hot topic with the Downing Street papers and the raise in in the number of Americans opposed to the war and Bush’s incompetent command.

There are two things I have been curious about in the attacks by the insurgents. One is why all the new Iraqi army recuits or police or soldiers congregate in exposed places giving the insurgents such deadly, superb killing targets.

The other thing is why the US and the Iragi goverrnment lets anyone and apparently everyone drive vehicles around any place. Why don’t they confiscate all vehicles then license them out to control them and their movements better. I image that would be a hell of a task, but everyday vehicle bombers must be wearing militar down and the mass of uncommitted Iraqis to a frazzle.

June 21, 2005 @ 12:20 am | Comment

can open other blogcity blogs, just not my own….

June 21, 2005 @ 12:27 am | Comment

blog-city is still working on the upgrade. it’ll likely be a while until everything there is working smoothly.

what’s your site address, kevin? I’m sure someone can check and see if it is accessible from behind the great firewall….

June 21, 2005 @ 12:47 am | Comment

i found a trick, when i try to open kevin’s page, blog-city will be blocked for some time. something really happened.

June 21, 2005 @ 12:49 am | Comment

bummer for you, mate. you’re fine from outside the firewall.

looks like you’ve got two choices. edit/remove the article, or stay blocked.

June 21, 2005 @ 1:24 am | Comment

I agree about Yangshou. If you go there, rent a bicycle, and hire a guy to take you along the river with your bike, and cycle back to the town through the villages. You’ll get better prices on the beautiful paintings of the scenery too outside of Yangshou. Mind you, watch out for the bad tempered waiters who will slug you in the head when you try to argue about being overcharged on the bill.

June 21, 2005 @ 1:39 am | Comment

Well, I just posted some “memories” and a new piece using a lot of @ and 0 in appropriate places. Let me know if you can read it behind the great firewall…

June 21, 2005 @ 1:56 am | Comment

hehe, can’t quite delete the article, since i can’t access my own page. don’t even know if it went up. ouch!

June 21, 2005 @ 2:08 am | Comment

Kevin I can read it fine in LA (well, I could read it fine if my Chinese were better, but you get my meaning). If you want to trust one of us with your user name and password, we could go in and delete the post for you and then you could change the password.

June 21, 2005 @ 2:16 am | Comment

Yang, “methinks she doth protest too much” is an older English idiom for what the respondent above translated that as.

June 21, 2005 @ 2:47 am | Comment

Sheesh. Talk about pushing on the pressure. Now I actually have to put some thought into it before I put up my first post Inside the Asylum … I didn’t think anybody would actually read it. Well, it’ll have to be delayed until I’ve got all this damned exam marking out the way.

Oh, my first action as a user Inside the Asylum was to add a link to Peking Duck. Cheers Richard.

June 21, 2005 @ 3:22 am | Comment

It looks like Kevin has been “Googleized”. That’s the nifty thing the Great Firewall does when you make a Google search it doesn’t like: Locking out your IP address or home domain (not sure which) for ten or so minutes until you perform a self-criticism and restrict yourself to officially sanctioned topics.

This fries me all the time at work, where I use Google as a basic research tool.

In the Blog City case it seems to last only about three or four minutes. I guess that counts as mercy, of a sort.

June 21, 2005 @ 3:29 am | Comment

kevin’s site seems ok now, i just commented there.

June 21, 2005 @ 5:10 am | Comment

Re Richard’s recent post about China’s New Left, Simon is preparing a reposte to the New Left’s third way thinking and Richard’s supportive comments.

Bring it on Simon!

From simonworld:

“I’m going to come back to this one: Richard notes and sides with the rise of China’s new left. It seems Communism didn’t work, but whereas capitalism has lead to hundreds of millions experiencing rising living standards and leaving poverty behind, some Chinese intellectuals are lamenting a reversion to 19th Century laissez-faire style capitalism and plead for “a third way”. There is so much wrong with this it will have to be a new post some time later this week.”

June 21, 2005 @ 6:00 am | Comment

If anyone’s interested, I just read a wonderful article linked on shulan’s site under the name “Fabricating differences. How different are the Chinese”.

Very enjoyable reading with much food for thought.


“The inner working of the logic here is rather typical for most authoritarian societies: first, one singles out one tradition or school of thought from a wide spectrum of possibilities and equates this one tradition with โ€œthe national heritageโ€; in other words, to make part represent the whole. Secondly, one reduces the other culture to a unified package of opposites. Once this is done, any dissenting voices from within the culture can be easily stigmatized as suspicious traitors representing the interest of the other culture. Be it the US during the McCarthy era, or many of the Islamic countries and China today, or Taiwan in 1984 and Singapore in 1994, the polarization of cultures as a convenient scheme serves the purpose of solidifying power at home and subduing any voice of dissent and criticism.”

June 21, 2005 @ 6:07 am | Comment

Richard: Yes, I heard from Rebecca. No probs.

John01: re China’s US Treasury Bonds, I read the same article in scmp. You’re right but dylan puts it into a better overall perpective and KLS (in her usual style) raises some equally relevant points, particulary re recent Chinese purchases of USTB.

It’s correct to say that China doesn’t “own” US debt. Also, Japan and Britain are firm US allies. Mind you Japan has n independent currency policy so they have to be watched to some extent.

KLS: Splittist tendencies, Moi? I think I once used the Scot-UK analogy when talking about my beloved Taiwan as it’s better than Hawaii (sp?)-US which the Chinese favour.

Explain to someone here that Scotland has a legal right to “split” from the UK anytime a majority supports it truly baffles Chinese uber-nationalists with their insane Historical Jihadi views (thanks for that phrase FSN9).

You can read the Tattoo thread for more evidence of my splittist tendencies!

June 21, 2005 @ 6:37 am | Comment

I love being quoted. Stroke that ego stroke. On second thoughts … better not. I don’t need any encouragement. Bad Filthy bad Filthy bad Filthy … hmmm, I enjoyed that.

God, can you tell that the exam marking is getting to me? aaaaarrrrrghhhhh.

June 21, 2005 @ 7:35 am | Comment

I make a big point when we’re talking about the UK of drawing a map of Ireland and pointing out that it is clearly a completely different country.

June 21, 2005 @ 7:37 am | Comment

Richard W, how was Dangong on the North Korean border? Never been but I’ve heard it’s a bit like an old Wild West town.

How many North Korean refugees did you round up and hand over to the CCP for the bounty? Isn’t it RMB5-10 paid per refugee?

June 21, 2005 @ 8:00 am | Comment

Sorry, “Dandong” I mean to say.

June 21, 2005 @ 8:02 am | Comment

I’m looking forward immensely to simonworld’s post arguing against the thinking of China’s New Left as he’s a pretty knowledgable guy when it comes to China.

Be interesting to see what he comes up with.

We’re reading and waiting Simon!

June 21, 2005 @ 9:13 am | Comment

By thw way guys, Horse’s Mouth mentioned something about Asiapundit, Glutter and Simonworld being inaccessable.

I can get Simonworld but NOT Asiapundit or Glutter. I’m not too bothered about Glutter but I’ve only just started reading Asiapundit!

Wonder what’s going on? Hopefully it is a network problem only.

June 21, 2005 @ 9:39 am | Comment

Sorry, I should make myslef clear and say that I’m talking about blocked in China, or at least the fear of.

June 21, 2005 @ 9:40 am | Comment

Yes, they have been blocked, at least temporarily, in China. Not too surprising considering their content — but actually, it’s surprising that they’d block any English-language blog. Why would they bother?

June 21, 2005 @ 9:46 am | Comment

Maybe because English-speaking Chinese are largely concentrated amongst the young and those pesky students? 89?

June 21, 2005 @ 10:35 am | Comment

Richard, you say you’re not surprised they were blocked because of their content.

I’m worried because asiapundit for example linked to both your ‘New Left’ and ‘democra*y in China’ posts.

What, by the way, would you do if, touch wood, TPD caught the eye of the nanny and was suddenly blocked?

Would you re-set-up or do what Paper Tiger did and provide a mirror-site for China readers?

What are your Plans A and B?! We need to be prepared just in case.

June 21, 2005 @ 10:41 am | Comment

I think if they were going to block me they’d have done so long ago. But you’re right, I should have a plan. Frankly, I don’t at the moment, but will start thinking about it.

June 21, 2005 @ 10:54 am | Comment

Martyn, what’s all this about KLS being a her? I’m a he! why did you think otherwise? perhaps I should adopt a more macho vernacular..
& I think your splittist comments need to be culled pretty quickly, perhaps richard can delete some of your posts? certainly don’t want a renegade region of tyne-wan lurking in the Northeast of England.

just a quick thing about the bonds — I read that if, say, China decided to sell of a load of US govt bonds, Japan could well follow suit immediately, to avoid being hit by the falling prices that the initial large scale selling would provoke.

June 21, 2005 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

I heard something very briefly today about some Interent poster in china who went to court for posting subversive material and his defence was to invoke his right under chinese law for ‘freedom of speech’!

Anyone heard about this today?

June 21, 2005 @ 3:05 pm | Comment

Yes, I heard about it and meant to blog it – haven’t had time yet!! It’s true.

June 21, 2005 @ 3:22 pm | Comment

Citing chinese laws for freedom of speech? Now this i’ve gotta see. I wonder what the outcome of this court case will be?

5, 10 years?

June 21, 2005 @ 3:46 pm | Comment


Please accept my apologies mate. To be honest, I’ve never thought about it one way or the other. I just plumped for the wrong pronoun I’m afraid.

Anyway, what do expect from a Geordie? Could have been a lot worse in fact, I could called you “Pet” instead of “her”. Ha ha.

Disagree with you about if China sold her TBs, Japan would necessarily follow suit. Do you mean to avoid potential capital losses/slide of the dollar?

It isn’t as simple as that. Japan/Britain etc are US allies for example and their economies are as close as “lips and teeth” (!), more importantly, everybody would suffer big time if China, Japan etc suddenly sold their TBs.

We’re talking about huge repercussions throughout the world economy. The kind that may require years to recover from, as I’m sure you know all too well.

Why’d you think the US isn’t nervously sweating and worrying about this very scenario? Coz it’s not ganna happen man. Why-aye.

June 21, 2005 @ 6:49 pm | Comment

KLS is a bloke? For some reason I was also under the impression you were a girl. I think it might have been because you said that your Chinese name is based on the pronunciation of your English name, which sorts of sounds like a girls name, such as Kerilise, or something containing “lisa”

June 21, 2005 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

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